True or False in Hawksville!
What's Joe Johnson going to do, take the Hawks' extension offer or leave it? No one knows because the Hawks' quiet All-Star and captain isn't saying.
HAWKSVILLE - While we wait for this week’s transaction(s) to be completed, why don’t we dive into a quick game of True or False-Hawksville style.
True or False, Joe Smith is going to sign with the Hawks?
True. And it could happen any day (if you haven’t leaned by now how critical that phrase is around here, I can’t help you). So what’s the hold up? Well, these contracts don’t work themselves out magically. They have to be negotiated and fine-toothed by agents and attorneys and whoever else has a stake in them. It’s not rocket science on this one, a one-year deal at the veteran’s minimum (of $1.3 million). I’d tell you to be patient and that things will work out but you’ve been doing that for weeks now. Again, the deal could be finalized any day now, so stay tuned.
True or False, the Hawks are interested in adding Jason Hart to their point guard mix?
False. It was reported somewhere that the Hawks were one of three teams in the running to add the veteran to their mix. I’ve since found out that someone got it twisted. The Hawks were never in the market for Hart (or any other point guard they were interested in adding). They’ve got Mike Bibby, Jeff Teague and veteran safety net in Jamal Crawford. If the Hawks were going to add another 6-3 point or combo guard to their mix they could have retained Flip Murray rather than hitting the free agent market for someone else. And before you ask, no, they do not have designs on bringing Flip back (that’s right, no more FlipMo Squad references around here).
True or False, the Hawks will add another veteran big man or two in addition to Joe Smith?
True. And we’ve already discussed two guys in particular, Johan Petro and Jason Collins, that could be in that mix. And that doesn’t include rookie behemoth Garret Siler, who will be on the Hawks’ training camp roster. But all of those reasonable fears about this team’s size and depth on the frontline could be wiped away with the addition of any two of these aforementioned larger humans.
True or False, the Hawks’ ownership feud is officially over?
Not exactly true or false. But things took a decisive turn with Monday’s court ruling in favor of the seven-man Atlanta/Washington, D.C., contingent. The options for the other partner, Boston-based Steve Belkin, were mapped out in today’s paper. One more option Belkin has that wasn’t listed: he can just walk away from his initial investment in the teams. He wouldn’t have to pay the $25.8 million in cash calls he’s missed during the litigation but he would also have to forfeit his 30 percent ownership stake. It will be interesting to see where things go from here.
True or False, the Hawks will sign Joe Smith before Joe Johnson agrees to a contract extension?
True. Barring a sudden change in the tone I’m hearing from folks in the know, Mr. Smith will definitely beat JJ to the punch on this one. In fact, no one seems to know which way JJ is leaning since the Hawks extended their offer for an extension. We’ve already talked about the figures (4-years, $62-$64 million range). It’s a huge decision and JJ has time, it’s not like he has to decide this minute. So I didn’t expect his process to be sped up just for our sake. If nothing shakes (one way or the other) by the start of training camp … then it might be time to start wondering what the heck is going on.
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528 comments Add your comment
doc
August 23rd, 2009
8:53 am
it is almost silly to think jj is not going to sign until woody is signed. i assure any and all if the money and length of contract is right he will have his name on the paper. those are the real criteria. when he sat down with his management team they didnt sit there and say well our first criteria to staying with the hawks is to make sure we express to them that if they dont extend woody we dont go forward. no they sat down and did it like every other player does with an agent and say what do we want as mine then work it back from there to establish what they thought market value was and how far they were willing to go under what they thought that was in order to feel right about extending with the hawks. woody’s name might have been brought up but it is not one of the main contingencies.
samuel that is a huge reach, like expecting a home discount. how many times has that worked? sounds good and fervent in your support of woody. samuel havent tried to argue with you on any of your pros on woody and have all along considered him a good man and hopefully a guy who can bring it on. if we do sign joe smith and maybe one other big player then there will be no excuses for playing players in shifts but playing players as pieces to change the ebb and flows of the game and counter the other coach. i have seen little of that, until now, except for what i think is an inadequacy of somehow getting some players to play above themselves realize his tools have been limited but he was one of the last in the city to realize mario had value in spot situations at the end of a game of quarter. the loss to the nets where he had josh smith on vince carter instead of mario is just one glaring example where he wasnt using what he had. yeah great shot but josh had to give him room to get it off because he isnt quick enough to stay with him. never should have gotten the ball. so, maybe it was as simple as he didnt have the horses, this year he will. ill give him that crutch one more time.
in the mean time samuel, think about what you are implying if jj gets what he wants. do you really think they are going to say we are tabling this until you sign woody? just isnt rational is it? i mean turn down a 4 year contract at 16 mil a year to make a point that they want the coach back. come on, you dont expect me to swallow that one do you?
doc
August 23rd, 2009
9:08 am
yin goes softly and quietly almost unnoticed to do its job, more the female, earth or moon energy. sounds like jj to me.
on other hand yang is powerful in your face like the sun beating down on you to get its job done. it is the male ferocious energy, the heavens. sounds like josh to me.
with this said josh is the yang to jj’s yin. the analogy doesnt make sense guys of trading josh as to get yin using the argument of yin and yang. sounds like you dont understand the essence of chinese thought. jordan was yang, pippin was yin. batman is yang, robin as yin. many have said jj is no batman, yup not enough yang to lead the forces nor rally them on his shoulders for long stretches like games if necessary and rove to them they can only win. it is the guy who doesnt look for vet help to get er done but demonstrates it and urges those who dont know how to do it anyway, kind of wade like. kind of in your face kg not the whiny pouty paul pierce. it also has nothing to do with size only how you use it. yin is very powerful in its own right, just think about your wife. heh heh
KevinA
August 23rd, 2009
9:21 am
doc, you didn’t meet my ex wife lol. Lot of yang going on.
KevinA
August 23rd, 2009
9:45 am
JJ is good enough to fit in any system. Getting the same amount of shot attempts and the same salary on every team might be a little tougher. I believe JJ will take a little less because he is the man in Atlanta and has the full faith and support of Woody and his team. Us bloggers are much tougher and our overall wide sweeping views seem to swing from month to month with much disagreement. Another reason he will resign is – this is his team.
I don’t think Woody is the micro manager some want him to be. I think he relys on JJ and Bibby to run the offense and he gives general direction in practice. Now that the kids are a year older and better I think Woody, JJ and Bibby/Crawford will work more to take advantage of the improved options. If I am wrong, and JJ/Bibby/Crawford continue to dominate the offense and play even better? I will still be happy. Suprised? Yes, but still happy.
All World
August 23rd, 2009
10:25 am
We want Flip!
Sautee
August 23rd, 2009
10:31 am
Ray,
That 11:47 post had a novel approach. I mean it was a freakin’ novel.
By the time I finished reading it I realized I was older. Much older.
And where, pray tell, are the footnotes? Heh heh.
ant banks
August 23rd, 2009
10:49 am
What is a GOOD COACH?
doc river was about to be run out of town before he got the big 3. mike brown got coach of the year and their were rumors that his job was in jeopardy. sam mitchell was coach of the year and he got canned. if doc didn’t have 3 hof, would he have been coach of the year and won a championship? if mike brown had the hawks players and mike woodson had the cavs players, what would be the result?
i don’t even think that phil jackson is a “good coach”. i think that byron scott is, but his team was blown out in one home playoff game last year. the term is relative, relatively speakin’.
doc
August 23rd, 2009
11:15 am
kevina as i said there can be a lot of power in yin, watch out, bet you didnt see it early in the match up. heh heh
agree kevina, as one of my friends on the blog says it is about the wins that make me smile.
ab, doc also brought along a second rounder overweight soft project and allowed something to happen. before you say it was kg’s doings, he also managed three huge egos and made it work with an unproven point guard. oh yeah, he also has a ring on his finger that he earned as a head coach. different story as he has been a winner with lesser teams and no talent. no comparing the two at this stage of the game. dont even go there ab, that argument works about as well as saying jj wont sign until we show woody some love.
ab that is funny real funny to put doctor phil out there as well to compare with woody and losing one game big. didnt we get blown out in four games and wasnt rick adelman working at a huge disadvantage the coach to somehow get his team ready to play against all odds? try some other form of reasoning because that logic doesnt work. give woody credit for what he has done, dont compare him to people that are in a different stratosphere he and we can only dream of.
Ken Strickland
August 23rd, 2009
12:44 pm
KEVINA-If what you suggest about JJ and Woodson is true, it makes you wonder who’s running the asylum. If JJ, and not Woodson, is responsible for us playing so much slow down halfcourt instead of playing uptempo OFF, that’s a negative reflection on Woodson. Personally, I find the idea of JJ’s unwillingness to play uptempo hard to accept since he played most of his early career with the run and gun Suns.
ANT BANKS-Doc Rivers also won coach of the yr honors as Orlando’s HC, and he managed to accomplished that feat without 3 future HOF players. He also got fired shortly thereafter. If Woodson had been the HC of the Cavaliers, there’s no way they would’ve achieved the same level of success they’ve enjoyed the last couple of yrs. Why, because Woodson’s limited OFF system would force them to become primarily jumpshooters, and that’s not their strong suit. They’re known primarily for constantly attacking the basket and forcing the issue in open court. That’s not Woodson’s preferred style of play.
On the other hand, I have no doubt MBrown would have designed an OFF system that would have us attaking the basket and playing uptempo. There’s no way he’d allow teams to get away with consistently double/triple teaming JJ. Beign a DEF minded HC in his own right, I’m not sure he’d allow a one dimensional DEF liability like MBibby to be his starting PG. I’m willing to beat he would’ve gotten a lot more production out of SJones and ALaw, because he would have given them a much greater opportunity to prove themselves. I’ll bet he would’ve given ALaw every opportunity to start, and utilized his speed, quickness, DEF and penetrating ability to initiate his uptempo OFF.
DOC-I have to agree with you on JJ signing a new contract. I’ve seen nothing to suggest he’s so loyal to Woodson that he’d forsake a substantial raise from the Hawks just because they might decide to hire another HC. Would he have the same attitude if they fored Woodson and promoted LDrew to HC? Suppose he really is refusing to resign until Woodson’s fate is determined, wouldn’t he still end up with a new HC if he went to another team?
Looks like teams have finally realized AIverson isn’t the player to take a team to the next level. His greatest success was with Philly, under HC LBrown. That was the only time he was not required to play PG. When on OFF, he played SG and ESnow ran the point. On DEF, he defended the PG and ESnow defended the SG. When he’s at the point, he becomes the OFF and the ultimate ballhog.
dap01
August 23rd, 2009
4:05 pm
The Hawks will improve because of the quality of the additions. Orlando added Vince Carter, who although talented, is a MAJOR question mark with chemistry. Cleveland added Shaq, when has Shaq help any team with chemistry? Boston added Rasheed……
The Hawks on paper added good quality basketball players who fit the needs of the team, without sacrificing the future.
Great job Sund.
Blast
August 23rd, 2009
4:08 pm
Based on that Hoopsworld article posted by Ray, can I say it again? Is Sund a genius or what? Also says a lot about Bibby, Zaza and Marvin taking pay cuts to better the team. Part I didn’t like was about JJ wanting to test free agency. Hope that’s just a rumor.
About Mike Woodson: Woody overall has a losing record. He has only had ONE winning season in his head coach career. Now he has improved his record every year, which is what every employeer expects from their employee. But I say he still has a lot to prove. And this is his year to prove it. Sund knows this, which is why Woody will not be extended this off season.
I like Woody. In a whacky sort of way, I wish Hawks would stand apart from other teams by being the only one to keep the same coach and core players for years to come. But the only way Mike will succeed with his new team is to overhaul his offensive sets. And realize that you can’t switch on defence everytime if Bibby is on the floor.
Samuel, you said the big three improved. Yes, on paper. Hawks are more cohesive right now, though. Remember, Orlando will be playing without Lewis for the first ten games of the season. That’s gonna hurt. And the Cavs are already trying to trade Shaq? Word is still out on Garnett’s knee. And Boston has Rasheed, who would likely cost them a crucial game by getting an ill-advised tech.
I’ve been a Hawk fan for so long, that I’m not suddenly expecting them to win a championship next season. I’m just enjoying watching them grow and improve, which goes for the head coach also. Hawks are not better that the big three, but if they can hold on to the 4th spot, I’m good with that. Again, this is the NBA. Where the impossible does happen!
KevinA
August 23rd, 2009
4:28 pm
Ken Strickland,
I find the idea of JJ’s unwillingness to play uptempo hard to accept since he played most of his early career with the run and gun Suns.
The Sun offense did not run through JJ. Here in Hawksville it does. Joe is very versitlile and probably likes running also. He also likes to play one on one and take charge of important shots. (his style of leadership) He is very good at it. I think most of us will agree JJ goes to this well to often.
Anakin Joe
August 23rd, 2009
4:52 pm
Ray, the recipe, ingredients and cooking utensils are pretty much the same as last year. Sund and the ASG like the recipe, ingredients and cooking utensils, I know that because everyone has been asked back (with long-term deals over the last two summers). So if the meal works, why not give the chef some love? If we were going from a steakhouse to Asian fusion, then I could see the reason for hedging the bet. But we’re going from cooking ribeyes to cooking slightly better ribeyes. Lastly, how many chefs get fired because they don’t know how to cook their food? A lot. So back to my original post… no more two year contracts next summer. Either commit or move on. I don’t care who the coach is next summer, let’s make a commitment to that person.
Hoops
August 23rd, 2009
5:27 pm
I get amused at the number of experts on this blog when it comes to coaching the Hawks. Most people on here have coached nothing more than their son or daughters Rec. team and that makes them an expert.
A coach, in my opinion, is only as good as the talent that they have to work with against the level of competition against whom they play. Coach Woodson started his coaching career in ATL with a team that was not prepared to compete in the NBA. Since that point the level of talent on the Hawks team has steadily improved as has their success. The progress has been slow, but steady. I for one see a bright future for the Hawks and Coach Woodson. Rick Sund has really improved the GM position since he took over. Be patient Hawks Fans and get behind our team and coaches! We may be closer to a ring than you think!
Mystikal
August 23rd, 2009
5:41 pm
Mike Woodson – good coach (on one side of the ball)
Doc Rivers – good coach w/o KG, Great coach with KG
Mike Brown – good coach, but gets too much credit (has Lebron)
Phil Jackson – Great at getting most out of players/coddling egos but not a developer of talent or team builder – MJ, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq
call what you want
Stating the Obvious
August 23rd, 2009
5:58 pm
Anakin Joe
Woody’s the chef? That’s a terrible analogy. The chef picks the ingredients (closer to Sund’s job), mixes them (Woody and Bibby), and tries to make them look pretty (Woody and Bibby). Every time I come on here you’re making some idiotic analogy that makes absolutely no sense, especially considering that Woody doesn’t do $hit except decide substitution patterns (which he doesn’t do well) and run practices. All we ever hear him say in those miked timeouts is talk in general terms about defense, rebounding, and energy/effort. My high school coach could do that.
So stop with the dumbassed analogies and get real.
Stating the Obvious
August 23rd, 2009
6:06 pm
Jesus, the more i think about it the more i realize how terrible that analogy is. You really have no clue what a chef does. It’s absolutely, positively nothing like being a coach. If you’re going to make an analogy, at least make one that makes an ounce of sense. But this is Anakin, part of Samuel’s Cult of Woody the Witless. Sense will never come.
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
6:59 pm
Astro Joe ,
While I may not feel as vehement as Stating the Obvious , I have to admit that your reply analogy made very little sense to me. I didn’t realize that we were talking about “no more two year contracts NEXT summer.” Seems like an argument best left for next summer don’t you think? Here I was thinking you were wailing all this time about THIS summer. I wonder why I thought that, hmmmm?
KevinA
August 23rd, 2009
7:01 pm
Hoops, you said,
I get amused at the number of experts on this blog when it comes to coaching the Hawks. Most people on here have coached nothing more than their son or daughters Rec. team and that makes them an expert.
Could you compile a list of the experts vrs just fans? Are you expert enough to make that determination? If not who would be that person. If you compiled a list of experts from this blog would they agree on everything? How would our experts stack up against other web site experts?
If we all agreed with everything about the Hawks the blog would fold. You seem to think your opinions hold more water than others. Please correct me if I’m wrong. What experience do you have that separates your elite thoughts from the ill informed and wrong minded bloggers.
Makes me think of bloggers complaining about the boredom of the blog. Is it really that exciting to read about being bored? Are they experts? Mercy.
I normally ignore rhetoric about anything that does not focus on the Hawks. I think we have a great blog. The biggest problem with our blog is the personal attacks on each other. We should welcome the diversity of opinion. We should welcome disagreement. If we disagree we should articulate the difference of a particular issue in a friendly spirited way.
But then again I am no expert.
Yahoo
August 23rd, 2009
7:03 pm
Stating the Obvious
AKA: Too Many to Keep Up With
Deuteronomy 5:11
KJV: Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
KevinA
August 23rd, 2009
7:36 pm
Woody/Sund made huge decisions resigning players. It is obvious they chose the possibility of organic growth and chemistry improvements over free agents. Personally I think it was a great option exercised. Will everyone play better and go less injury free? Who knows. I do like the idea of continuity. This idea of continuity and organic growth may take more than one year. For those who think a championship is within reach this year or next is probably wrong.
After this year we may have a good idea of on which our young studs have plateaued or still have upside. Wether JJ/Bibby/Crawford can develop a better flow on offense with the young studs encourages further evaluation. I see more upside rather than downside.
UGA
August 23rd, 2009
7:41 pm
What IF?
Joe Johnson leaves next year and we replace him with a signed Josh Childress???
This is by far one of my greatest fears as a Hawks fan.
KevinA
August 23rd, 2009
8:00 pm
UGA, what is your fear. Childress would cost 5-6 million, maybe less. JJ would free up 15 mil and the trade of Crawford would free up 10 million. That leaves 18 million to replace JJ and give Al a raise.
If Crawford plays great and Al gets a raise to 7-8 million that still leaves a 7 mil upgrade somewhere. Teague becoming a good player in his secound year opens up a lot of possibilities.
ant banks
August 23rd, 2009
8:14 pm
we have 6.5 weeks before the 1st Hawks preseason game. if we don’t kill each other before then…it is gettin’ dicey on this blog. we need sekou to referree some of these arguments…
we got a group fightin’ about flip
we got a group fightin’ about whether to re-sign jj
we got a group fightin’ about whether to re-sing woody
now we got a group debatin’ about bein’ a CHEF!!
we need to contact stern to see if we can get this season started sooner!! can someone lead us in Kumbiyah My Lord, Kumbiyah…
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
8:25 pm
KevinA,
GREAT post on the so-called expert stuff. Great post!
Ant Banks,
It’s like this every summer. Welcome to canniblogging ( copyright by MannyT )
Anakin Joe
August 23rd, 2009
8:41 pm
Ray, I don’t know. I thought when I wrote that post of Firday, I clearly mentioned how I was hoping for a commitment next summer to a coach for the long-term.
Stating the Obvious, you’re right, the closest thing I’ve come to being a chef was washing dishes in an Italian restaurant in high school. Here’s a tip that I use for bloggers whose entrees I don’t respect. I skip them. Scroll right on past. Feel free to ignore my posts in the future as I surely won’t stop using anlogies as I write. That would be like asking the cable news networks to stop reporting news from an unbalanced perspective.
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
8:52 pm
Yahoo,
Are you really going to reference Deuteronomy of the King James Version in response to somebody’s post? Wow…how about something from Song of Solomon from the NIV, so we can promote the love around here?
All this talk about how unfair life is for Woody. The man got a 2 year contract extension from his new boss for the purposes of evaluating him. Surely it’s reasonable to allow him the full two years to show what he can do. I’d say that’s fair for both the evaluator and the evaluatee, no?
vava74
August 23rd, 2009
8:58 pm
Ken,
The problem about running is that it is incompatible with good defense and although we have an athletic team, Bibby doesn’t have the legs to do it consistently like he did in Sacramento.
Furthermore, Woody uses our running game sparringly in order for it to be an effective weapon to turn games arround to our favour, then reverting to solid defense and slow paced game with JJ holding to the rock in order to minimise TOs since Bibby is no longer strong and fast enough to do that.
If we ran all the time, our defense would suffer (running teams are too tired, to streached in the court and too distracted to defend well) and we would not have this weapon.
You should also take into consideration that there aren’t too many examples of successful up tempo teams (past or present) and the ones that did have some success (Suns) always had a prime time high quality passing PG (Magic with the Lakers, Nash with the Suns).
A slight exception would be Bibby’s Kings, however, although Bibby was not a true pass first point, he was much faster and stronger than he is now AND that team had a combination of outstanding passers in the post which overcame this issue (Webber and Divac), plus the Turk was in the mix as well, another point forward.
We do not have a PG with these characteristics and Teague, for all that we have seen will never be a true pass first PG which would make running all the time an option bound to convert us into just an improved version of the Warriors (entertaining but with no substance)..
Where we have to improve dramatically is on rebounding and J-Smoove is the one that must elevate his averages.
We cannot win consistently on the road when we get only 15.6 rebounds p/g on the road from our starting C and PF.
Overall Josh has to get at least 9.5RPG in order to justify his minutes and all the adulation he gets and Al must improve his average to 10.5/11RPG.
A Tribe Called Quest
August 23rd, 2009
9:00 pm
Wtf is up with this blog? We get 1 blog a week and the articles are 2 paragraphs long about things no one thinks twice about…A 2 paragraph article about Mario making the team? is that the best we can get in the last 2 weeks? How about an update on what Marvin or JJ specifically did this summer to improve their games? Every summer, LeBron focuses on one element (defense/shooting for example) and improves it greatly–what is JJ doing?
Hoops
August 23rd, 2009
9:18 pm
KevinA,
I do not claim to be an expert on basketball. I am just like you, I have an opinion. I just read comments from alot of bloggers on this blog that question and put down Coach Woodson for the many different aspects of coaching that he has to handle. My intend with my previous comment was to just show support for him and the Hawks and the great job that they have done turning the Hawks program around over the last 5 years. I think sometimes we focus too much on the negative and don’t speak of the positive things that are going on. My intention was not to criticize or put anyone down. I guess that when you have been in the profession for 33 years, you understand there is a lot of time and work that goes on behind the scenes that maybe other people don’t see or appreciate. I see an unbelievable amount of improvement that is going on here with the players, coaches, GM, and owners. Are we there yet? No. But I think the Hawks are headed in the right direction!
UGA
August 23rd, 2009
9:23 pm
Well, from earlier. Who cares about the money, there is no comparison b/w Joe and Childress. IF the Hawks lose Joe they better hope Wade or somebody is coming in. Joe does have some flaws, but if not for him, we would not have even been discussing the playoffs these last 2 years.
Yahoo
August 23rd, 2009
9:31 pm
Big Ray
I have a lot of respect for your comments but why do you pick on me? Did I really do something wrong? I just enjoy reading the blog. I’m not the trouble maker. This is what the jerk said:
“What the f*ck is taking so long on the Joe Smith signing? Jesus.”
As I read blog comments, this one bothered me to respond that way. Let’s not kid ourselves; we both know what he meant. I think my bible reference is very much appropriate. I don’t think he knows anything about love peace and happiness based on that comment. Do you? I don’t expect you to really answer that question because unless you really know the person, you can’t. I love reading the different points of views, but not from the gutter; just my opinion.
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
9:39 pm
How about this:
Sund & the ASG have essentially asked Woody to jump through one more hope, the ‘09-10 season. And they have presumably provided him with his best roster (assuming that Joe Smith puts pen to paper). My hope is that next summer, someone will get a 3-4 year contract to coach the Hawks. If not Woody, find someone else. But make a commitment to a coach that is consistent with the long-term contracts of the nucleus. Stop asking coaches to jump through hoops.
I ask again, which hoops might these be? Unless I’m wrong, Sund offered Woody a 2 year contract . So the ‘09-’10 season is the second half of that contract. I still fail to see how it’s unreasonable to take the entire two years to let Woodson do his thing, and evaluate his progress (and that of the team) from one year to the next. If you only evaluate him and his team on one year, what can you possibly compare it to, other than his job performance under a different GM? How this translates into jumping through a hoop is beyond me. I don’t know what you’re wailing about, because you can bet that what you hope for is exactly what’s going to happen. Either he’ll get a longer contract, or somebody else will be brought in.
I could assure you that in the NFL, a coach on a 1-year deal isn’t feeling too warm and fuzzy about playing a rookie QB or MLB. Why would that coach develop a player for the next coach?
Your analogies kill me sometimes. An NFL coach on a one year contract. Is there such a thing, and how in the devil do you compare THAT to an NBA coach on a 2 year contract?
Again, we’re not talking about a one year deal. We’re talking about the second year of a two year deal. Even then, Woody is the one who signed it. All this talk about hoopjumping would make me think that surely Woody is a dumbass. After all, he’s the one who signed the contract, did he not? I guess maybe he realized that this is how the business goes (or haven’t you noticed) for coaches in the NBA, and that he also wanted to keep the job. Maybe he realized he had a new/different boss. Maybe he realized his sterling win-loss record might not be enough on his resume. Maybe he wanted to finish what he started.
Or…he could have listened to you, taken his injured pride, and told Sund and the ASG to cram all these damn hoops up their collective butts. I’m sure that would have looked better on his resume.
Anyone notice the Pistons coaching situation the past 5 seasons? How many of y’all are willing to put a mortgage payment that the new coach lasts 2 seasons?
Anyone notice the Hawks coaching situation the past 5 seasons? I have. Two different GMs in that time period, and one head coach through both. Name’s Mike Woodson. What’s your point?
KevinA, but most of our players are signed to 4-5 year deals. If you all haven’t noticed, the success among NBA coaches is horrific. I just think that a coach who has led one of the youngest teams in the league to 3 consecutive playoff appearances (after starting with a young & ultra-cheap roster) may get a few offers that are better than 2 years of more hoop-jumping.
Uh, how often have you seen coaches get contracts that are in line with the contracts that players get? It just doesn’t work that way, and I can’t imagine how you don’t see that. Only the best coaches have any kind of tenure, although a case can be made for the perennial winners. Yet even they change jobs. The criteria for keeping the job is ever-changing. Guys like Flip Saunders can get you 50 wins every year, but still get fired. Why? Because maybe for the team they’re working for, 50 wins isn’t the benchmark. An appearance in the Eastern Finals may be that mark. If “winners” like Saunders are subjected to this kind of treatment, then what about guys with records that aren’t even close to winning (I can think of one)? It’s the nature of the business.
And I’m willing to bet that if Mr. Woody gets that 3rd consecutive playoff berth, he’ll get a fine and dandy contract offer from the people he is currently working for. Funny thing is, some of the staunchest Woody critics have all stated their agreement to such a result. Yet the wailing and gnashing of teeth continues, as though Woody had been burned at the stake, drawn and quartered, and hanged (and not necessarily in that order).
doc, I hope. Again, if not Woody, give the multi-year deal to another. I just find it laughable to think that a coach doesn’t make decisions based on their contract status. Decisions like, do I give Teage a chance to work through his turnover issues or do I keep playing Bibby, oh, wait, I may be unemployed next season… Bibby, get in the game.
Okay, just give some new guy a multi-year deal, just for the sake of it? Only if said person was a proven commodity.
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
9:48 pm
Yahoo,
Come on man, I’m not picking on you viciously.
I do admit to picking on you, though. This sort of thing happens in August when there isn’t much to talk about. My only point, however non-subtle it may have been, is that this forum is much like speaking to each other in public, at a bar or some such place. I will not presume to tell you how to feel about what you read, but I would take the liberty of reminding you where you are. Freedom of Speech is a very sharp blade that tends to cut in all directions. Get my drift? Judge not, that ye yourself shall not be judged, eh?
One other thing, and don’t take any of this to be an admonishment. But you stated that unless I know the person, I wouldn’t know if the person knows anything about love peace and happiness. Well, would this not apply to you, or do you know the person?
Secondly, I DO know the person (no, it’s not me). Furthermore, I happen to know which faith he hails from. I’ll say he’s a friend, and leave you to your own conclusions. One small hint: hypocrisy is a parasite that manages to infect all human beings at some point in time, even those who think themselves most righteous. Hard to be a saint, easy to be a pharisee.
doc
August 23rd, 2009
9:52 pm
you know ray, if there were so many other teams around banging down woody’s door last year then he could have signed elsewhere last year. he also got a raise based on how many years of losing basketball? not sure but if memory serves me woody didnt have to sign the contract. woody had two years on his contract last year and still only played 8 guys so wtf point is AJ not making there ray? maybe AJ can fill us in since he was on the acie train last year watching woody ignore him on a two year contract and now seemingly reversing his own stripes and being woody’s supporter this year thinking if he has another contract woody is going to change his stripes as quickly as he did. schizo or just delusional or just making time here until the season starts?
Anakin Joe
August 23rd, 2009
9:54 pm
In the interest of carpel-tunnel syndrome, Ray, you’re right, I’m wrong.
Anakin Joe
August 23rd, 2009
9:55 pm
And that’s my contribution to healthcare reform!
doc
August 23rd, 2009
9:58 pm
oh joy, a sunday school lesson to boot today. man sekou, better come up with some news fast, this thing is going to heavens.
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
10:10 pm
doc, I hope. Again, if not Woody, give the multi-year deal to another. I just find it laughable to think that a coach doesn’t make decisions based on their contract status. Decisions like, do I give Teage a chance to work through his turnover issues or do I keep playing Bibby, oh, wait, I may be unemployed next season… Bibby, get in the game.
Huh. Sounds like somebody with a focus issue, and an inherent ability to multitask, manage, and delegate. A head coach is a manager. After all, he does have a staff. Why not delegate someone on the staff to work with Teague, then give him PT when appropriate?
I don’t think anybody is asking Woody to play Teague bunches and bunches of mintues, and winning be damned, although there seems to be a suggestion that this is what people are wanting. I know it’s not what I want.
The idea that you’re developing a player for the next coach can only be rooted in the assumption that you are going to be fired or otherwise not re-signed at the end of your contract. Does Woody have a solid reason to think that way? If he does, then he should just quit NOW, right? That’s simply the wrong attitude to take, and Woody at least, knows that. So he goes back to work, hard as ever, preparing for the job at hand. The one he’s getting paid to do.
Here’s a question: Should Woody ignore Teauge altogether, on the possibility that he might not be coaching the team after next year? Might his ignoring his first round draft pick be detrimental to the goal of getting a contract extension with his current team? I’d think so, especially since Sund publicly stated that player development is one of the things he thinks is important, and that he will be evaluating.
One more time for those in the cheap seats: I don’t think anybody is asking Woody to play Teague yeoman’s minutes, and not try and do what it takes to win each and every game. Teague is part of the present, but moreso the future. If YOU want to be part of the future, might you not want to do what it takes to help secure that future? I would. And I’d also want to show my current boss that I’m interested and invested in the future that he’s trying to put together.
…or…you could just say to hell with that young fella. I’ll worry about him in his second year, IF I get the contract to stay on.
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
10:14 pm
Astro joe ,
Ha! You’re wrong for that man….it’s jousting, not war. As for your contribution to healthcare reform, I’d say it would meet with a much warmer reception than what’s going on right now…not that I’m willing to get into THAT conversation…
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
10:16 pm
“oh joy, a sunday school lesson to boot today. man sekou, better come up with some news fast, this thing is going to heavens.”
ROFL!!
Doc,
I’ll take choice D. We’re just making time…
Yahoo
August 23rd, 2009
10:30 pm
Big Ray
Once again, no disrespect but you left out two words that altered the meaning of my comment. Did you do this on purpose or was this an over-sight? Here is your response:
“But you stated that unless I know the person, I wouldn’t know if the person knows anything about love peace and happiness. Well, would this not apply to you, or do you know the person?”
“You should quote my entire sentence:
I don’t think he knows anything about love peace and happiness based on that comment.”
It was based on his comment I made the call. You change the meaning by leaving that part out.
Also, since you are shooting down my comment I made about your “friend”, then that is exactly the thing people are complaining about on this blog; at least, that is the way I am taking it.
One more thing, please don’t frame me as being self-righteous because I made a bible reference. I also say a bible verse before I eat but I have also smoked pot in my younger day. No, I am not perfect but that is not the point.
Ken Strickland
August 23rd, 2009
10:47 pm
VAVA74-you don’t have to foresake DEF in order to become a running team. The SHOWTIME Lakers proved that. HC’s that favor a run and gun style of OFF often use it to mask their inability or unwillingness to coach DEF. The same holds true for HC’s that focus on DEF to try and mask poor OFF schemes(see Woodson) and/or an unwillingness or inability to coach OFF.
AM I GOING TO GET THE BLAME FOR ALL OF THIS WOODSON TALK? Hee, Hee!
Anakin Joe
August 23rd, 2009
10:55 pm
doc, you’re right… I was on the Acie train last year. And in the confessional/admit-your-faults spirit of the past few days, I already admitted that I was likely wearing rose-colored glasses while wathcing Acie. (But that doesn’t change my opinion on Stuckey, I still don’t see the hype there). I hope Sautee is right and that Acie finds his groove elsewhere (not likely with Crazy Nelie unfortunately). But I have my doubts. He may be like so many of players before him (and after), a really good college player whose game doesn’t quite translate in the NBA.
Anakin Joe
August 23rd, 2009
10:57 pm
So, what are some of the better objective ways to measure a team’s offensive effectiveness? Or said differently, what are some of the quantifiable ways to measure a team’s offensive performance? Or defense for that matter?
doc
August 23rd, 2009
11:22 pm
aj let us see if woody is able to utilize teague and change his stripes. that is not about rose colored glasses.
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
11:40 pm
Yahoo,
“You should quote my entire sentence:
I don’t think he knows anything about love peace and happiness based on that comment.”
Precisely my point. I’m not willing to make an assumption of any kind based on one comment, especially if I don’t know the person. It just so happens that I DO know this person. And I understand that frustration or having a bad day can lead to a comment like that. Therefore, I am not willing to mention or assume the permanent qualities or characteristics of a personality based on a single comment. I’m not saying that you WERE willing to do such a thing, but you were also the one who brought up the idea of not making assumptions unless you know somebody. I think that covers making assumptions based on a single comment as well, or do you disagree?
Either way, I know the guy, so consider the bluff called. Well, in a manner of speaking. I don’t mean this to sound hostile (seriously).
As to the other stuff, if you noticed, I was careful to not call you self-righteous. Since you are willing to work with quotes, here is me quoting myself:
“One small hint: hypocrisy is a parasite that manages to infect all human beings at some point in time, even those who think themselves most righteous. Hard to be a saint, easy to be a pharisee.”
Did I call you self-righteous, or did you just think I was? I wasn’t. But I was warning you that you might come across as self-righteous to others. I mean, responding to a comment not directed at you by quoting a bible verse? No, nothing wrong with that, but what exact response are you expecting from YOUR response? Just curious.
And I’m not calling you a hypocrite either (not without calling myself one, anyway). I’m saying it effects all of us. That’s all.
I wasn’t shooting your comment down. I just happen to know the guy, which you undoubtedly didn’t think I did. Heh.
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
11:42 pm
Astro Joe,
Remember Randolph Childress, from Wake Forest? I thought he’d be the shiznit in the NBA. Boy was I wrong. By the way, I don’t like admitting my faults on here. If you think my normal posts can get long, you ain’t seen what THESE would be like…
Big Ray
August 23rd, 2009
11:49 pm
I think one way of measuring a team’s offensive effectiveness starts with looking at how and where they score, consistently. Does a team run ISO plays with the intent of exploiting various mismatches when the ISO is contained or otherwise stopped? Is their bread-and-butter built on the pick-and-roll, and who are the main cogs in that set play? Do they run a series of screens designed to free their main shooters? Do they use a motion offense that relies on a mix of slashers who get the ball while in motion, and shooters who get the ball off of screens?
Do they score more in the paint, or off the perimeter? Is there a balance of the two? Do they do the bulk of their scoring while running, or in the half court? Again, is there a particular balance or set percentage?
A bunch of questions, I know. But consistency is where it starts, and every team has a pattern. Those who don’t, are the beneficiary of chaos. Chaos works to an extent in the regular season. In the playoffs, it has little to no chance against decent competition. I think the measurement of a team’s offensive effectiveness can begin to be measured on what the team employs with regularity, and the adjustments or options it uses when an opposing defense seeks to, or is succesful in, disrupting the offensive team’s primary scheme.
Did that make any sense at all?
Yahoo
August 24th, 2009
12:56 am
Big Ray
This splitting hair thing we are doing is basically the difference between the way you think verses the way I think.
Your comments:
“Precisely my point. I’m not willing to make an assumption of any kind based on one comment, especially if I don’t know the person.”
And this:
Therefore, I am not willing to mention or assume the permanent qualities or characteristics of a personality based on a single comment.
I share the same ideals you do (believe it or no) but with one exception. When someone mentioned the word “Jesus” in a foul sentence, then “I think” a bible reference response is a good option. I did not condemn or judge him; the biblical reference speaks for itself. I could have been trying to help him with his conduct (if we are going to continue splitting hairs). I made no comment, I just quoted the verse. If you got a problem with the biblical text, then you are talking to the wrong person.
You say you know the person. OK, I can respect that. You clearly have an advantage over me in that dept. However, there are some husbands who thought they knew theirs wives and ended up in divorce so don’t think it’s not possible to get the character thing wrong; useless you two are sleeping together and “got it like that” (just kidding).
By the way, how do make those smiley faces? I wanted to use one behind that last sentence.