The gang’s all here!
With the starting five (plus a few more) back and under contract for the foreseeable future, the Hawks have at least given themselves a fighting chance to compete with the big boys (photo courtesy of my main man and former AJC photographer Pouya Dianat).
HAWKSVILLE - If continuity means anything in the NBA these days, the Hawks have done right by their own this summer.
Marvin Williams touched on it last week during a conversation we had the day before he signed his new contract, and again this afternoon in a teleconference with the media to discuss his new deal. A day after my initial talk with Williams, Al Horford and I discussed continuity briefly while he took a break from his work with the Basketball Without Borders program.
Dating back to last summer and extending all the way through training camp this year, the Hawks (if they can come to terms with captain and All-Star Joe Johnson on an extension) will have spent millions to keep their core in place for the foreseeable future.
“I think management is making the commitment to keep us together,” Williams said Tuesday. “And each year we’ve gotten better.”
Josh Smith’s $58 million deal was the first domino, albeit an offer sheet from Memphis to the restricted free agent power forward last summer that the Hawks matched before the ink was dry on the offer sheet. That swift move was followed up this summer with deals for Mike Bibby (3-years, $18 million), Zaza Pachulia (4-years, $19 million) and Williams (5-years, $37.5 million-base). Johnson’s 4-year extension, if signed, would be in the $64 million-range.
Full disclosure, math was never my strongest subject in school. But that’s a lot of cash spent, rightfully, on the heart, soul and guts of your team. Any team dreaming of winning big at the NBA level has to invest in its core or risk vanishing into the ether.
When Hawks center Al Horord talks,in English or Spanish, people tend to listen.
What the Hawks have done is neither groundbreaking nor extraordinary in the world of professional sports. But for a franchise mired in a malaise of mediocrity for the better part of a decade prior to the last 13 months, it’s a pretty impressive feat. ”Obviously, I think it’s pretty important to build on to what we’ve started,” Horford said during our phone conversation last week. And he would know, having played on successful teams every year of his college and professional career to date. “I’m glad Marv got his deal done, because we’re going to need all our guys back and ready to go this season.”
By no means does this excuse the Hawks from the responsibility of filling out the roster with quality players capable of supporting that core group. But it certainly helps that the core is in place right now – a nucleus with three wildly talented youngsters in Horford, Williams and Smith. That would be a heck of a core group by itself. So to have JJ, Bibby, Zaza, rookie Jeff Teague and even Jamal Crawford to add to the list makes the list that much more impressive. It’ll look even better with the addition of a name like Joe Smith, still in the works according to some well-placed sources that insist the Hawks won’t give up until someone pries Smith from their dead claws.
Will it win a championship in a league where the defending champion Los Angeles Lakers have stockpiled elite talent to go around Kobe Bryant and the Boston Celtics have assembled a star-studded army to battle the Lakers, Cleveland and Orlando for supremacy? No way. But the same can be said for solid young teams in places like Portland and Chicago as well. That’s just the reality of the situation.
What a rock-solid core does is give the Hawks a fighting chance to be relevant now and into the future. And despite cries for titles (things, mind you, that Hawks fans have never experienced) relevancy is the tangible goal that all teams must focus on before moving into championship mode.
Having witnessed my favorite team’s lone championship season of my lifetime (scroll down to the bottom, it’s there, I swear), I can sympathize with the desire to shed the middle ground for the higher ground. Having witnessed that championship season also made it painfully clear to me just how rare those occasions are, even when you have seemingly all the resources in the world at your disposal, that your squad actually cashes in on the big prize.
Would I trade 40 years of rooting for a a competitive or even upper-tier team for one title? Absolutely. But if I can get both, even if the titles only come once every 50 years, I’m not turning that down either. Back to my original point, and I apologize for swerving off course a bit but it is football season (and I smell a comeback season cooking in Ann Arbor), it all comes down to perspective for me.
Is it more important to be relevant and potentially a true player or not? I say stay relevant (given whatever constraints might be in place, and it’s no secret the Hawks have many) as long as you can. We’ve all seen the flip side and it’s ugly, real ugly.
Where the Hawks fit in the grand scheme of things depends on your perspective, as well. If being the fourth team in a three-team Eastern Conference race doesn’t strike you, that’s understandable. And they will have challenger for that fourth spot. But they certainly seems sure of themselves.
“I feel like people are obviously starting to respect our ball club,” Williams said during his teleconference. “People realize they are not going to come into Atlanta and get an easy win. I don’t think anybody in the league is doing that anymore. We’ve shown the last few years we can compete with anybody in the league. We certainly feel like we can compete with anybody in the league.”
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Guides
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2010 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
488 comments Add your comment
JM
August 11th, 2009
3:49 pm
First.
wiggle, wiggle! Thanks sir links.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
3:51 pm
From last blog.
Ken, if Salim messed up, Woody would bring in Joe. If Acie… Bibby. If Solo – Josh Smith. See the pattern? He would answer a bonehead play by bringing in a player (who presumably) would be LESS likely to make another 2 more bonehead plays. And by doing that, the player learns AND the team has an improved chance to win. If Marvin continues to mess up and Othella Hunter is the only available substitute, then Woody would likely be doing the team a tremendous disservice. Because chances are, every 2 Marvin mistakes would become 4-5 mistakes from Hunter. I don’t consider that being inconsistent, I think that is keeping the ultimate goal in mind. Giving yourself the best chance to win the game at hand. Sure, when we were a “re-building” team, player development was the primary goal. We have passed that phase now. And if Marvin continues to make the same mistake and hurt the team, then Sund either needs to find a better bench substitute or get Marvin out the door (the use of Marvin as an example was illustrative only and for the reading pleasure of Sam/Rod).
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
3:58 pm
That all sounds great until you get to the end of the season and all your best players are tired, sore, and dragging…
JM
August 11th, 2009
3:58 pm
Now to the blog. So Sekou, if we lock up our core, and ownership wants to keep the core together, how do the Hawks get a game changing 5 in the next couple years. Or is this going to be it? I don’t think we are at championship level now, but how do we get the 5 most people think we need to get to the next level? I say trade Marvin if there is interest next season. Someone has to go to get a legit big in the near future.
O'Brien
August 11th, 2009
4:05 pm
From last blog.
If I’m the head coach, and my star player pounds the ball too long, disrupting my team’s offense, I would be constantly in his ear telling him to pass the ball. But Woody lets JJ do whatever he wants. I agree JJ should know better, and the other players need to get open. However, it all starts with the head coach.
After all, whose responsibility is it to:
1) call plays to get the front court more shots?
2) have the team run more screens to get JJ some easy shots?
3) call plays to get Marvin more open looks
4) call more plays for Josh around the basket?
I blame Woody and JJ for the iso, but ultimately, Woody is in charge, so he gets most of the blame.
Sekou Smith
August 11th, 2009
4:16 pm
You need your core locked up so you can move pieces later to get it right JM. You’re going to move somebody at some point, that’s just a given. In most cases you have to give up an asset or two to get a valuable asset, or two, in return.
In the meantime, it serves the Hawks well to have their core group under contract (and reasonable contracts in just about every case) so they’ll have the flexibility to wheel and deal when they plateau. And that’s when, and only when, you take a jackhammer to this team. The minute they stop climbing is when you start moving pieces around.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
4:17 pm
And player development sounds great when you’re winning 26 games and you start looking at draft possibilities during the All-Star break. The ultimate, is to add depth with players whose best years weren’t in the AAU.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
4:17 pm
What is the measurement that our offense doesn’t work? The playoffs?
JM
August 11th, 2009
4:28 pm
Best case scenario would be able to move up in the draft next year to get an up and coming 5, but i doubt that will happen so someone has to go and I would move Marvin. That plateau may come sooner than we think, Sekou.
Truth Hurts
August 11th, 2009
4:28 pm
By O’brien
Remember that game when Bibby passed the ball to an open Josh (who then missed his 20 ft jump shot)? Woody yelled at Bibby, saying he should not have passed it to Josh. Bibby yelled back at Woody, saying (and I paraphrase) “Josh was open, so I passed it to him. If you dont want him shooting those shots, then tell him not to hang out that far from the basket”.
That was just one example, but in my opinion, it’s on Woody for not being more creative offensively. How many games did we lose (especially the first 3 years (before Bibby) when we had the last shot, but the whole world knew JJ would pound the ball, and then force a bad shot at the buzzer? How about trusting other players?
Woody has no offensive creativity. If I’m the head coach, and my star player pounds the ball too long, disrupting my team’s offense, I would be constantly in his ear telling him to pass the ball. But Woody lets JJ do whatever he wants. I agree JJ should know better, but it starts with the head coach.
After all, whose responsibility is it to:
1) call plays to get the front court more shots?
2) have the team run more screens to get JJ some easy shots?
3) call plays to get Marvin more open looks
4) call more plays for Josh around the basket?
I blame Woody and JJ for the iso, but ultimately, Woody is in charge, so he gets most of the blame.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
4:30 pm
This team has not plateaued but Woodson has. I just have too much of his butt hair in my eyes to see it.
Mike
August 11th, 2009
4:34 pm
And let’s remember that we were a 4 seed and won 47 games with 3 starters ages 23 and younger. Continued improvement will mean 50 + wins and actually making the 2nd round competitive. You can’t break up a core when many of them havent even come close to entering their prime. Now while I agree that Woodys coaching style holds these guys back we still have way too much to look forward to this season.
As these guys improve and get even more experience the gap will close this season and beyond. Now if we can add the veteran big (joe smith), we will have a nice 10 man rotation. And if Woody can use it correctly we will have some fresh legs come playoff time.
Truth Hurts
August 11th, 2009
4:37 pm
The measurment of our offense is how consistant it is. Our offense is not consistent. Strike that it’s Woodsons offense that isn’t consistant. The playoffs showed that or does anybody think that Miami is nearly as good as the Hawks even though they have Dwane Wade? What players are being added to the team this year that had their best years in aau? That was last year.
UGA
August 11th, 2009
4:37 pm
Sekou,
I want Joe Smith.
But, is Mikki Moore or Brian Skinner being mentioned with the Hawks???
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
4:38 pm
I floss my teeths with Woodrows butt hair.
UGA
August 11th, 2009
4:40 pm
Anakin Joe,
Is there something wrong with you? That’s just nasty.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
4:41 pm
I like it when Woody slips me his woody.
Mike
August 11th, 2009
4:43 pm
Anakin Joe…I definitely agree with you about Woodson. The second round is as far as he will ever get us. But the core of our team has the potential to go much farther together. Hopefully Sund will realize this before its too late
Mike
August 11th, 2009
4:51 pm
well agree with most of what you said about Woody
All I'm Saying Is...
August 11th, 2009
5:02 pm
To all you Woody haters: Billy Knight signed Woody and rest assured that Rick Sund will use Woody’s last year on his deal and our accomplishments this season to determine whether Rick keeps him around and that will work as long as we handle our business on the floor and at a minimum match what we did last season (i.e. no worse than a #4 seed and win the first round series). If we don’t match last years performance, pencil in Avery as the next coach.
Sekou: Re-signing our core (i.e. players drafted by or traded for by Billy Knight) is a smart move by Rick Sund and he is to be commended for drafting Teague and adding Crawford. And signing Joe Smith may be a plus but Sund has not addressed our most glaring need: Center. Count me as one of many who believe that we need big bodies and/or defensive pressure in the middle. Adding Joe Smith will help but signing Siler is a move we have to make given that we made no effort to get Tyson Chandler or Theo Ratliff, both of whom would have been a worthy Center to add to our squad given our need in that spot.
UGA: Mikki Moore has no game. Granted, he’s 7′ and can run the floor but I’ve never seen the guy display any skill other than taking up space and given his spindly frame he doesn’t even do that well.
LET’S GO HAWKS!
GeeMack
August 11th, 2009
5:06 pm
Well Sekou, get the jackhammer ready because next year this team will peak. If they get 3 more wins this season. I will be shocked. The Hawks are the 5th best team in the east behind (Bos, Cle, Orl, and a healthy Wash). Notice the resemblence of those team. They all trot out 3 all stars in there starting line up.
Mike,
Woody is not the problem with this team its talent. You can’t beat a Bos, Cle, Orl, LA, or SA when they have far better talent. You take the best player on the Hawks (JJ), and he’s the 3 or 4th best players on one of those teams including washington.
So you can’t fire Woody until you give him the player that can win.
UGA
August 11th, 2009
5:13 pm
As far as Mikki Moore, look how well he played against the Hawks last year. He had 10 boards against us one game. My only point is if we strike out on Joe Smith, we have to get someone and he may be the best left.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
5:28 pm
AJ,
For me, it’s the old eye test. We won 47 games, yes, but we looked butt ugly winning many of them. (Still, I wouldn’t give any of the 47 back)
When we shot well, the offense was considered to have worked. That doesn’t mean it was well conceived. It was not. Our shooters had to overcome our lack of imagination.
Case in point, how many not GREAT, but just GOOD plays do you remember coming out of timeouts? Just a solid play to get a good look?
That’s what I thought.
And how many times did we refuse to adjust on offense? Let me count the ways.
No, on second thought, I don’t have that much time.
Ernest
August 11th, 2009
5:28 pm
Sekou, who checks for posts eaten by the ‘blog monster’ on your blogs? Usually when I give it an hour it shows up but it’s been a while now…
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
5:35 pm
Please notice the picture above. If you look closely, there is about an inch difference between Joe, Josh, Marvin and Al. I have argued with some people on this blog mostly about Marvin and Josh. Reading the blog before the last one, someone again made the ignorant statement that Marvin is our best perimeter defender. That is just not true, so please think before you type. Out of our starters, the best defensive players are hands down Joe and Josh. Both are able to defend multiple positions, Joe from the 1 to the 3 and Josh from the 5 to the 2. That is not to say that they can do it on a consistent basis, or do a great job, but they can, and have done it during their careers. Marvin can only defend the 3 and sometimes the 2 but lacks the lateral quickness to guard most 2’s in the league. He will get his lunch taken by 95% of the 4’s in the league. Being that the blog topic is about the core staying together, I would propose that for the Hawks to be as successful as they want to be this year, they will have to play small ball. I think that by midseason or maybe at the beginning of the season, Woodson will have to realize that his best starting lineup will be Bibby/Teague (1), Jamal (2), Joe(3), Josh (4) and Horford (5). Marvin, Teague/Bibby, Zaza first off the bench. Joe can play the 3 and will have an advantage offensively against most 3 ’s in the league, especially with the iso Joe play. Jamal will be needed on the floor with Joe to take pressure off of Joe, and to put another strong offensive presence, and ball handler on the floor that teams have to respect. Obviously teams do not respect Josh, Marvin or Al enough offensively to not leave them wide open. With Crawford on the floor, I pray that teams do double and triple Joe. Just my 2 cents.
S.L
August 11th, 2009
5:44 pm
Hey Sekou,
Good article – didnt know you were a Michigan Man. Go Blue (and hope we have a better season this year). Back to the Hawks – If we can get a little bit of size in the addition to a proven veteran ie – Joe Smith, and maybe an additional athlete ie- Stromile Swift then the Hawks have a chance to not only maintain that 4spot but could fight for the 3rd spot if Teague, and Crawford impress and of course we stay healthy. The More bigs the better we need some bodies to throw at the Cavs, Boston and even Orlando. Should be a good year nonetheless – GO hawks
Rufus1
August 11th, 2009
5:45 pm
I am HAPPY!!!
I know that one day we will have to trade Marvin or Josh, but I am glad we will have them for a few more years. I would have liked to have a new coach by now, but I will be happy just having the cake and not eating it.
It will come down which player develops the trait each is missing to be a STAR(Marvin-Aggression Josh-a Jump shot). I believe that will day the Hawks will be championship bound.
Imagine It
Eastern conf.finals
Josh goes for 35pts 12rbs 8ast and hits the game winning 3 in Lebrons face. SUCKA!!
OR
Marvin goes for 30pts 10rbs 10ast and hits a fade away jump shot in that PUNK Mo Williams grill to win it!!
I will watch with glee as those busters from Cleveland cry, because Lebron was turned away again from a Title.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
5:48 pm
Rod,
In my opinion, iso Joe is MUCH better against 2’s than 3’s. And I’m not sure Joe can handle guarding LeBron, Pierce, Turkoglu, etc. for the entire season.
Of course if we stick with that “switch every pick” nonsense than it’s a moot point.
There IS a time for that, but not all night.
I’m sure we’ll see that lineup some, but I’ll be VERY surprised if that’s a permanent starting lineup.
Ken Strickland
August 11th, 2009
5:55 pm
GEEMACK-the team with far better talent isn’t necessarily the better team. There have been a number of teams with far better individual talent than the Spurs over the yrs, but the Spurs have proven to be the better team.
ANAKIN JOE-I can see why you are such a Woodson supporter. You seem to share his unwillingness to see beyond the obvious, and like him you can’t seem to accept that you just might be wrong. Both of you blame the players for everything that’s wrong with the team.
Ramon
August 11th, 2009
6:02 pm
Everyone is talking about a game changing 5, that is funny. There is really only 3 to 6 of those in the league. Someone real quick name 6 centers in the league better than Horford. After you do that, remember this is only his 3rd season he’s entering. Many of you want another center but would any of you REALLY trade Horford for Oden today? If Luc Longley, Bill Wennington, Greg Ostertag, and others play at the 5 was good enough not to prevent their team from going to the finals, I don’t see how Horford wouldn’t be. I mentioned those two teams because neither one of those team had a PF with said C taller than 6′9. If you don’t believe many C’s around the league respect Horford and have their own problems with him at that position, then look again. Yao Ming is the only C who is a game changer and available. Biedrins, Chandler, Okafor, Curry, Dampier, Perkins, Nene, B. Miller, and others are players who produce less than Horford, yet all except for Biedrins have already peaked or entered into their prime. And Biedrins doesn’t have any better chance matching up to Howard and Shaq than Horford. Horford didn’t get owned in the paint except for when he was in foul trouble and had no one to BACK him up. But as far as starting C’s in this league, what we have is better than 75% of the league, and still getting better. Honestly, this is the best starting 5 talent wise that I EVER remember the Hawks having (including Nique’s squads). And then Nique wasn’t that game changer at age 23 that would WIN games like that. Mookie’s Hawks were all in their 30s. So I say take this starting 5, and if it doesn’t reach expectations, let the coach go before anyone in the starting 5.
CTrim
August 11th, 2009
6:16 pm
Now that Powe has signed with Cleveland maybe Joe Smith comes here after all.
Stating the Obvious
August 11th, 2009
6:18 pm
Out of our starters, the best defensive players are hands down Joe and Josh. Both are able to defend multiple positions, Joe from the 1 to the 3 and Josh from the 5 to the 2.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You actually think Josh can guard a 2? Take your own advice and think before you type. Or at least watch a goddamned game before you type, RodSam.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
6:19 pm
Ramon,
Big co-sign
fudd21
August 11th, 2009
6:23 pm
Rod, come on now man. You say that Josh can defend the 2 thru 5 but then say Marvin lacks the lateral quickness to defend the 2. You honestly believe that Josh lateral quickness is better than Marvin. Have you really paid attention when Josh is on the perimeter trying to defend someone. He doesn’t even look right trying to get in a good defensive stance. Most of the times those 3 get by him going to the hole. Now I will admit that Josh has the closing speed and uncanny ability to meet them at the rim that Marvin doesn’t but lateral quickness. Marvin does a MUCH better job of staying in front of people when guarding on the perimeter. SO I have to beg to differ with you on that one Bro.
Ken Strickland
August 11th, 2009
6:28 pm
ROD-I’m not sure you can make a blanket statement about Josh or Joe being hands down the best DEF players on our team. Josh has proven to be our best shotblocker and off the ball defender, but his on the ball DEF is lacking, oompared to AHorford, JJohnson and MWilliams. Playing a constantly switching DEF, and having a swinging door in Bibby at the point, makes it more difficult for our frontline players to concentrate on guarding the individual player they’re assigned to defend.
Marvin has developed into an excellent defender and his DEF versatility is definitely an asset. If I had to determine the best defensive player, I’d chose AHorford. He’s more physical and a better on the ball defender than JSmith, or any other player on our team, and is our best defender when going up against bigger, taller and stronger players. He’s also our 2nd best shotblocker behind JSmith. That type of versatility makes him the best candidate for the teams best defensive player.
RealSquawk
August 11th, 2009
6:32 pm
Did you ever in your wildest dreams thing a Hawks summer could go like this? If the Joes sign our team will be locked up on reasonable contracts and flexibility for the future. Something I never thought possible as a Hawks fan. And Sekou you make a great point. Lock up your talent and then make your changes accordingly. Not only do we have all of our desired pieces the prices are reasonable and we still have the rights to childress if he ever returns.
The Truth
August 11th, 2009
6:34 pm
Ken Strickland
Homeboy you are in rare form today. Keep’em on their heals. As you already know, the best defense is a good offense.
Professor
August 11th, 2009
6:34 pm
I would like to see what a new coach can do with this squad while we still have pretty much the same players. If we change the squad and the coach, then it will be said that Woodson didn’t have a team to win with. I still think this is a quality squad, especially if we can land Joe Smith.
cp
August 11th, 2009
6:34 pm
Tyson Chandler is an overpaid injury prone center. I’m glad we did not try to acquire him. Some people on here want a 7 footer regardless if the guy is good or not just so they can say we have a 7 footer. We will see what kind of numbers Tyson puts up now that he does not have CP3 throwing him those lobs.
cp
August 11th, 2009
6:36 pm
Anybody who thinks Josh Smith can defend 2 guards cannot be taken seriously ever ever ever. You lose all credibility with that nonsense.
rich
August 11th, 2009
6:40 pm
ctrim , good point I think Joe Smith is locked out of Boston, and Cleveland with the latest signing. I think we now have a good chance to land Joe.
Mystikal
August 11th, 2009
6:42 pm
Hey Sekou,
If for some reason we come out of the gate slow and have a very underwhelming record, how long before Woodson gets the axe? Not that this will happen, but just for arguments sake, what would you guess?
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
6:44 pm
Stating the Obvious and fudd21,
I actually have seen Josh guard Kobe, Wade, Iggy, Carter …. You guys have such short memories. I can remember a couple years ago when Woodson thought Josh was the defensive stopper for everyone. One game in particular I seem to recall was Miami. Wade was one on one with Josh at the top of the key, drove and got his shot blocked to preserve the win in Atlanta. Wade did his notorious falling to get a call, but refs did not call it. I can recall last year Vince Carter at the end of games agianst us when he hit the game winner, Josh was defending him, not Marvin. Actually I do beleive that his lateral quickness is better, as well as his recovery ability. His shot blocking ability alone makes up for any lateral quickness he may not have. When you get by Marvin, that’s it. Not Josh. Do you guys really watch the games?
Sautee,
Not sure. I would prefer Joe defensively on Pierce and Lebron depending on foul trouble. I think he does a much better defensive job than Marvin on the perimeter. See the playoffs against Boston, Pierce’s eyes lit up everytime Marvin was guarding him. Turk, I would prefer Marvin.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
6:45 pm
Anyone hear the Marvin conference call recording?
http://www.nba.com/media/hawks/ConfCall_Marvin_Williams_081109.mp3
He said that this summer, his focus is on improving his ballhandling (along with just practicing the usual). Let’s hope his ballhandling improves this summer as much as his three point shooting and defense improved last summer. If he can get an off-the-dribble game to complement his perimeter shot and his ability to get to (and convert from) the line…well, damn. We’d be able to have two guys on the floor at any given time (JJ/Marvin, JJ/Jamal, or Marvin/Jamal) who can score both off the dribble and standing still. It’s very tough to gameplan against a team like that.
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
6:47 pm
Ken Strickland,
Stating the Obvious
August 11th, 2009
6:48 pm
RodSam,
You mean the play where Marvin started off guarding Vince but Josh switched onto him after the Nets set a double-screen for him? Oh sorry I forgot. You only watch YouTube clips of games rather than the actual games. My b.
Stating the Obvious
August 11th, 2009
6:48 pm
*JJ started off guarding Vince, not Marv.
Mystikal
August 11th, 2009
6:54 pm
Ramon,
With you on that!
Stating the Obvious
August 11th, 2009
6:56 pm
Or this shot by Wade where JJ started off guarding Vince and then Josh switched onto him after a screen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLsHMb-tnNI&feature=related
Samuel
August 11th, 2009
7:01 pm
What’s so interesting is that photo. If they are all standing on the same floor. There’s not an inch difference in any of our 4 big guys. Either Al isn’t really 6′10 or Marvin has grown an inch.
Cuz,
Glad to know we have another realist here.
Did someone here mention football. I must say that this is the first time in a long time that i’ve actually been longing for the season to start. Ole Miss pre-season #10, Mississippi State will finally have a wide open offense(Got another name for ya: Chad Bumphis, Freshman WR from Tupelo.Said he was a pro “at something” since the 5th grade), MV7 set to return to the League.
Michigan football. I don’t know about that. If it aint the SEC, it aint football.Cuz, you know that. I do like T. Pryor from OSU though.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
7:01 pm
JM, Beleive me when I tell you it was MY PLEASURE LOL!!!!
Nire, Great Find!!!
Stating the Obvious
August 11th, 2009
7:02 pm
And Ray and Sautee and the guys on Peachtree Hoops and Lang Whitaker all have said that Marvin became the Hawks’ best perimeter defender this year. I guess none of them watch the games either, huh?
Idiot.
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
7:04 pm
Ken Strickland,
“Marvin has developed into an excellent defender and his DEF versatility is definitely an asset. If I had to determine the best defensive player, I’d chose AHorford. He’s more physical and a better on the ball defender than JSmith, or any other player on our team, and is our best defender when going up against bigger, taller and stronger players. He’s also our 2nd best shotblocker behind JSmith. That type of versatility makes him the best candidate for the teams best defensive player.”
Marvin is by no means an excellent defender. Not sure about Horford being the best but I can understand your point. I would say that if you moved Horford to his natural 4 position, he would not be a better defender at that position than Josh. Regarless of your like or dislike of Josh, to discredit his defensive ability for his career not one year is really disrespectful. He has been first or second on our team over the last 3 years in steals and 1st in blocks. Not Marvin. Not Al, Not Joe. I guess the stats don’t matter though huh. I know the response. He gets all his blocks off of help defense. I wonder who it is he is helping? I would guess that they were mostly wing guys and point guards penetrating. Who is checking those guys?
Stating the Obvious
August 11th, 2009
7:05 pm
Powe to the Cavs. No excuse if the Hawks don’t sign Joe Smith now.
Stating the Obvious
August 11th, 2009
7:09 pm
Well, Rod at least you’re not alone in your opinion of Marvin’s defense. You always have Sam and the other voices in your head to agree with you. Or do they disagree with you sometimes? I’ve always wondered about that with the schizos.
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
7:14 pm
Stating the Obvious,
Thanks for making my point for me dummy!!!!!!! I’m sure your brilliant head coach Woodson would be smart enough to put his best perimeter defenders on the other teams best player at the end of the game. Wonder why JJ forced him to Josh’s side? Hmmm…….. Wonder why our best perimeter defender Marvin was not guarding him? Ignorance is bliss.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
7:16 pm
Vintage JJ baby!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTqCItzl25Q
KevinA
August 11th, 2009
7:18 pm
jhan, from the last post.
It would be crazy to give Crawford $15M/year but not JJ.
I’m all for giving our frontcourt more touches but we can’t run our offense through them.
Our established scorers are all backcourt players – like it or not.
I would not sign JJ this year for more than Josh gets. I think Josh will have a better year. If Crawford stays I would assume JJ is gone. If the back court continues to high volume attack I think you will see Woody gone. Time for change.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
7:19 pm
I know he’s defenetly a better player now than he was in that Video, but I wish he still attacked as quickly as he did back then. No doubt, that’s the Woodson Effect on him now….
Mystikal
August 11th, 2009
7:20 pm
If marvin really did work on his ball handling that would mean so much. Having 3 players on the floor at all time that can handle the ball really helps on offense. Combine that with getting the ball to Horford (hoping it happens) who is a great passer and the offense could be so much better. Like many have said though, we will see if Woodson has learned anything and actually makes the adjustments.
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
7:20 pm
Stating The Obvious,
“And Ray and Sautee and the guys on Peachtree Hoops and Lang Whitaker all have said that Marvin became the Hawks’ best perimeter defender this year. I guess none of them watch the games either, huh?”
Peachtree Hoops huh? I guess the Peachtree Hoops guys are the authorities huh. LOL How about asking someone in the league, or coaches. How about asking Woodson what he thinks?
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
7:25 pm
Great story by Sekou today on Al. Nice to see him picking up Dikembe and Smitty’s mantle of giving back.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
7:25 pm
nire, I wonder if someone told Marvin who to work with to improve his ball-handling.
Ken, stop spoon-feeding these men. They are not YMCA players, they are grown men.
Sautee, I fully admit this team has warts. But so does every other team. And I think that you are one of the few who probably can honestly say, that if we collectively spent as much time with any team (including Boston, Orlando, Denver, Cleveland, etc.) that we would likely find many, many, many frustrating problems with their coach and/or players. Remember all of those “Woody needs to hire an OC like Mike Brown” comments? And what happened in the Cavs-Orlando series? Cavs became a one-man gang with an offense that was easily defended and ultimately failed (Mo Williams is still walking around Cleveland looking for his jumper).
At best, folk can say that Woody missed on one talent (Diaw). So far, no one else who lived in his doghouse has returned to deliver the mythical “I told you so”. Folk admonish him for being a “control freak”, yet they turn around and say that he allows players the freedom to make mistakes. Huh? I’ve read Smith complemented for figuring out how to be the team’s 2nd leader scorer but then someone says that the team doesn’t look for him enough. Is this guy ready to score 25 points a game for a playoff team?
Here’s what I think. I think Woody treats these guys like grown men and expects them to step up like grown men. If Marvin works on his 3-point shooting, then guess what, he will have the freedom to spot up behind the 3-point line throughout the game. If Childress wants to probe the defense for openings on the baseline, go for it. If Flip (who had one of his very best seasons) wants to take his man to the rim, have fun abusing that opposing guard.
What he doesn’t do well is conduct “trial and error” studies during the game. I think he expects his assistants to coach the individual development and likely expects the players to push themselves in the off-season. I’m guessing that there was very little “player development” when WOody was playing. He’s old school. And I think players who have it together (like Horford) are rewarded and find their way in his system. Guys who need stroking (Salim & Diaw) probably dread every moment with Woody. I remember the quote when Bibby joined, something like “I’ll let him run it”. I remember the quote from Bibby’s agent a month ago “Woody allows Bibby to be a coach on the floor”. I remember his genuine delight when Bibby went off on him during the playoffs. Woody wants guys to step up and take it. But he won’t give it to them. He wants them to earn it. Like a man. No Babies Allowed. I always thought that Woody was an AWFUL hire for a young team. But take a look, we’re not that young anymore. 2 players on this team are still on their rookie contracts. Horford is mature being his years and we’ll see about Teague.
Lastly, if Woody clicked on each and every cylinder, I don’t think that we have enough cylinders to catch Boston, Orlando nor Cleveland. So I’m more apt to give him a pass when an i is left undotted because when all is said and done “we are who we are”… the best of the rest.
A Tribe Called Quest
August 11th, 2009
7:28 pm
WHY ARE WE LETTING EVERY BIG GO?
JOE SMITH ISN’T KEVIN GARNETT. WE CAN LOOK AT OTHER PLAYERS TOO. WHY COULDNT WE SIGN OBERTO?
JESUS
Traceman
August 11th, 2009
7:28 pm
Rod, Josh is a tremendous shotblocker but he is only average AT BEST as a man defender which is why despite his tremendous shotblocking ability, he gets very few votes for the All-Defense team. He can make spectacular plays OCCASIONALLY when guarding guys on the perimeter by blocking their shots from behind after they get by him but if you think that is great D you are mistaken. Both Marvin and JJ are FAR better at staying in front of their men on D than Smoove is.
When Smoove first came into the league, he was quick enough to guard SFs but in case you haven’t noticed, he has gained a significant amount of weight over the last two seasons. He is growing into a man and as he gets bigger and stronger, he is going to be even less successful trying to guard guys on the perimeter. Smoove is a PF who can play SOME SF but he would struggle to guard most good SFs for an entire game.
All that said, Smoove has a greater impact on the TEAM’S defensive success than any other player on the roster because of his shotblocking ability. He is NOT the team’s best MAN defender but he is the team’s MOST IMPORTANT defender.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
7:30 pm
nire, I was thinking that too. That the Hawks have a rich history of “guys who care”. We’ve had some jerks along the way but it feels like we’ve had some of the best character guys of any team in the league. I’m probably being a “homer” about that. SAR was a great community guy too. And JT. A bunch. And that’s way cool!
A Tribe Called Quest
August 11th, 2009
7:30 pm
WHY ARE ALL THE STARTERS EXCEPT BIBBY THE EXACT SAME HEIGHT IN THE PICTURE?
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
7:31 pm
STO,
Please don’t put words in my mouth. I have never stated that Marvin was our best perimeter defender, though I DID say he was the most improved on defense. His increased effort on D is what I praised him for.
IMHO, our two best perimeter defenders (by far) got traded to G.S. Not that they ever got to defend.
Odd that they played for a supposedly “defensive” coach and yet had lots of dnp-cds, eh?
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
7:34 pm
Tribe,
Lots of teams do that for team publicity photos – take angles and space people to make everyone look roughly the same height. That’s also why Bibby only looks 3-4 inches shorter instead of the 6-8 inches shorter that he actually is…
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
7:34 pm
ATCQ,
Is Jesus even available? He’d be a good signing! You KNOW he’s tough if he died on a cross.
Sorry Ramon, I couldn’t help myself.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
7:36 pm
Notice how the angle of the photo is slightly tilted upward, Bibby is standing at least a couple feet in front of everyone, Josh is standing in front of Al, JJ is standing in front of Marvin, Marvin and Al both have wider stances than everyone else, etc.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
7:37 pm
Can you tell I took a photography class in college?
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
7:39 pm
Co-sign Traceman. Best description of Josh’s defensive impact that I’ve seen around here.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
7:40 pm
1) Mikki More Sucks
2) Stromile Swift Sucks
3) Al Horford has been the best defeder on this team since the day he got drafted. Joe is solid, and Josh has A LOT of work to do….his help defense is pretty solid though.
3) Koroloev, Carney, Siler and no one else….Maybe Flip or Gerald Green…you just never know
4) Joe Smith come home baby!!!!! WE NEED YOU!!!!!!
Rod, I never said Klezia INSTEAD of Marvin. I meant Kleazia BACKING UP Marvin. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better. Marvin is better.
Please everyone, Stop the Madness….
~This has been a NO BITCHASSNESS prduction~
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
7:41 pm
Somebody give nire a cookie
Ramon
August 11th, 2009
7:54 pm
I won’t lie to you guys. If I was Joe Smith, I would sign with Denver.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
7:55 pm
AJ, I agree. We’ve had some of the best charater guys in the leauge.
LMAO@ Sautee
Ramon, Exellent post from earlier
Rod, the Last time Josh had to Guard Vice Carter, he shot a Game Winning three right in his face….Josh couldn’t play vince tight bec ausehe dosent have the Lateral quickness to stay with smaller guys like that. If he had, Mr. Carter surely would have taken it to the rack.
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
8:02 pm
Traceman,
I totally disagree. I guess steals don’t mean anything either.
I think the stats will speak for themselves. No comparison.
Josh (5 seasons)
897 blocks and 441 steals
Marvin (4 seasons)
126 blocks 238 steals
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
8:05 pm
Being able to recover is part of being a good defensive player in football and basketball beleive it or not.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
8:06 pm
Ramon,
Nene, Birdman, Kenyon Martin, and Ronoldo Baklman….OK I see your point lol. BUT, The Nuggets won’t get past the Flakers. Also Denver has shown over the last two years that they want no part of the Luxury Tax, by Dumping Camby and Letting Klezia go overseas.
Besides, It’s Hotlanta!!! Joe will make the right decision
If he had a Twitter account, Nire and I would have had him signed weeks ago hehehe!!!
Rod from College Park
August 11th, 2009
8:07 pm
Ariose,
Why was our best perimeter defender Marvin not checking him? Hmmmmm. Boy this Woodson must really not know what he is doing. LOL
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
8:10 pm
Rod, they play two different positions. There arent that may SF’s who are prolific shot-blockers. It’s usually big men…..like….OH YEAH JOSH SMITH!!!!
Marvin is not a Big…
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
8:12 pm
Rod, Probably because of the “out of bounds” play by the Nets and the scramble afterward. Josh just happend to be near vince so he had to defend him at that point.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
8:16 pm
Check the Vid…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQN-dNC3UNk
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
8:20 pm
Marvin gets assigned to cover the inbounder a lot on those plays because 1) his length is bothersome and 2) he won’t take the risk of leaving his man. That’s the reason that Phil Jackson almost always had Pippen guard the inbounding player despite the fact that Pippen was the Bulls’ most versatile defender.
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
8:21 pm
Stating the Obvious that you don’t have cable, because obviously you couldn’t have watched or been to Phillips Arena to see that Marvin is an average defender compared to Josh. I just think you guys must be getting paid by Marvin to keep defending him. This guy is not that good and he is not worth $1 million a year let alone $7.5…..
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
8:28 pm
That clip shows a reason why Marvin gets assigned to the inbounder – he deflected the inbounds pass.
Here’s a clip of Reggie’s famous shot. I don’t think that Phil put Pippen on McKie and Harper on Reggie because he was more scared of Derek McKey than he was of Reggie or because he thought Ron Harper was a better defender than Pip…
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
8:28 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr9ldg2jL3Q&fmt=18
Samuel
August 11th, 2009
8:36 pm
AJ,
You’re On.
Let’s make no mistake about it. Josh Smith is our best defender when “he” wants to be. Hands down. He is the only player we got who can dominate the game from a defensive stand point.
I’m not one to base defensive ability solely on blocks but when Josh is zoned in on defense, there’s not a better defender in the league. Not only does he block shots but he has guys looking around to see where he’s at, which is very valuable and doesn’t show up in the box scores. Just ask KG and company from a couple of years ago.
Like what Shaq said about the TD comparison. TD may be better all around but he is “most dominate”. Josh falls into that category. I would say that JJ is our best all-around defender, followed by Al and marvin but Josh is definately most dominate.
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
8:39 pm
Niremetal, WTF does that have to do with anything. Jordan is on the best player, why? Because the NBA’s Jordan probably only had 2 fouls the whole game and had license to chop the sh#t out of somebody with no foul call at will. I don’t know what point you’re trying to prove, but if that’s our Atlanta team, that would be Joe or Josh chasing Reggie.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
8:41 pm
Nire, nice Clip!
Samuel
August 11th, 2009
8:44 pm
Nire,
I can’t totally agree with you on that. Pippen got all the pub for being the best defender but Ron Harper was probably the most underrated defensive player ever. Most people only got a chance to see Harper post-knee injury days.
I got to see him in his prime on a nightly basis when I lived in SoCal from 87-90. The man was a straight up beast. OMG the Clippers and the Lakers use to hang up something serious. Harper was the only man I have ever seen put “absolute locks” on Jordan. No Shi_. A defensive Beast.
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
8:44 pm
Now notice, who is on the best player on the floor? Joe, who ends up with the game winning block? I’ll let you answer that……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLsHMb-tnNI
The Truth
August 11th, 2009
8:46 pm
As I read Sekou article entitled “Horford spends time teaching basketball to youth abroad”, I can’t help but notice how thin Al looks. Even in the above picture in this blog, Al is about equal in height to all four in the background (being just a bit taller then JJ) but with a thinner frame than all four players. Even JJ looks thicker then Al. I know BK would be proud to know his design of all 6-8/6-9 players is still in place and hailed as the core future. If Al expects to regularly dance with the likes of Shaq, Howard other Bigs, he better hit the weight room fast for conditioning. I don’t know what his weight is these days but he will be injury prone if he doesn’t get stronger. When we subconsciously scream for more bigs, this is the reason why.
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
8:48 pm
THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE, WATCH JOSH RUN PAST MARVIN FOR THE BLOCK…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygZBFbVqtxg&feature=related
Hoops
August 11th, 2009
8:57 pm
Ramon,
Joe Smith will sign with ATL now that the Cavs have signed Powe. I don’t blame him for holding out to see if he could return to the Cavs. What does Denver have to offer that the Hawks don’t?
It’s just my opinion, but I think Joe S. will sign with the Hawks soon! Why not? The Hawks are a playoff team on the way up! Then we will wait until training camp to fill out the rest of the roster.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
8:59 pm
Samuel, I always thought about the Harper to Jordan relationship like Marques Johnson to Dr. J. You have to be old school to understand that. But both Harper and Marques were a half-a-hair below their more publicized contemporary. At least until injuries set in. Kind of like Donny Hathaway to Marvin Gaye.
rusty
August 11th, 2009
9:03 pm
i didnt think that the hawks have a really good defensive player certainly not marvin or joe. we are
a lousy defensive with woodys lousy switching defense. i just hope to hell that woodson makes joe
to stop ball hogging & gets some ball movement in
our offense. i still think that we need to make a trade of joe for a big man. crawford is here. does any one here think alook these lines
Mike
August 11th, 2009
9:14 pm
We should not have to worry about Denver going after Joe Smith. They are trying to re-sign Anthony Carter and sign a wing player to replace Kleiza and Dantay Jones…rumor is possibly Wally Szerbiak.
Hopefully Joe realizes he will have a very good situation in the ATL
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
9:20 pm
Rusty, no we don’t need to trade Joe. The only big that is worthy of a Joe trade is Dwight Howard and Orlando is not doing that.