The gang’s all here!

First.

wiggle, wiggle! Thanks sir links.

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That all sounds great until you get to the end of the season and all your best players are tired, sore, and dragging…

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From last blog.

If I’m the head coach, and my star player pounds the ball too long, disrupting my team’s offense, I would be constantly in his ear telling him to pass the ball. But Woody lets JJ do whatever he wants. I agree JJ should know better, and the other players need to get open. However, it all starts with the head coach.

After all, whose responsibility is it to:
1) call plays to get the front court more shots?
2) have the team run more screens to get JJ some easy shots?
3) call plays to get Marvin more open looks
4) call more plays for Josh around the basket?

I blame Woody and JJ for the iso, but ultimately, Woody is in charge, so he gets most of the blame.

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And player development sounds great when you’re winning 26 games and you start looking at draft possibilities during the All-Star break. The ultimate, is to add depth with players whose best years weren’t in the AAU.

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Best case scenario would be able to move up in the draft next year to get an up and coming 5, but i doubt that will happen so someone has to go and I would move Marvin. That plateau may come sooner than we think, Sekou.

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This team has not plateaued but Woodson has. I just have too much of his butt hair in my eyes to see it.

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The measurment of our offense is how consistant it is. Our offense is not consistent. Strike that it’s Woodsons offense that isn’t consistant. The playoffs showed that or does anybody think that Miami is nearly as good as the Hawks even though they have Dwane Wade? What players are being added to the team this year that had their best years in aau? That was last year.

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I floss my teeths with Woodrows butt hair.

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I like it when Woody slips me his woody.

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well agree with most of what you said about Woody

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Well Sekou, get the jackhammer ready because next year this team will peak. If they get 3 more wins this season. I will be shocked. The Hawks are the 5th best team in the east behind (Bos, Cle, Orl, and a healthy Wash). Notice the resemblence of those team. They all trot out 3 all stars in there starting line up.

Mike,

Woody is not the problem with this team its talent. You can’t beat a Bos, Cle, Orl, LA, or SA when they have far better talent. You take the best player on the Hawks (JJ), and he’s the 3 or 4th best players on one of those teams including washington.

So you can’t fire Woody until you give him the player that can win.

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AJ,

For me, it’s the old eye test. We won 47 games, yes, but we looked butt ugly winning many of them. (Still, I wouldn’t give any of the 47 back)

When we shot well, the offense was considered to have worked. That doesn’t mean it was well conceived. It was not. Our shooters had to overcome our lack of imagination.

Case in point, how many not GREAT, but just GOOD plays do you remember coming out of timeouts? Just a solid play to get a good look?

That’s what I thought.

And how many times did we refuse to adjust on offense? Let me count the ways.

No, on second thought, I don’t have that much time.

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Please notice the picture above. If you look closely, there is about an inch difference between Joe, Josh, Marvin and Al. I have argued with some people on this blog mostly about Marvin and Josh. Reading the blog before the last one, someone again made the ignorant statement that Marvin is our best perimeter defender. That is just not true, so please think before you type. Out of our starters, the best defensive players are hands down Joe and Josh. Both are able to defend multiple positions, Joe from the 1 to the 3 and Josh from the 5 to the 2. That is not to say that they can do it on a consistent basis, or do a great job, but they can, and have done it during their careers. Marvin can only defend the 3 and sometimes the 2 but lacks the lateral quickness to guard most 2’s in the league. He will get his lunch taken by 95% of the 4’s in the league. Being that the blog topic is about the core staying together, I would propose that for the Hawks to be as successful as they want to be this year, they will have to play small ball. I think that by midseason or maybe at the beginning of the season, Woodson will have to realize that his best starting lineup will be Bibby/Teague (1), Jamal (2), Joe(3), Josh (4) and Horford (5). Marvin, Teague/Bibby, Zaza first off the bench. Joe can play the 3 and will have an advantage offensively against most 3 ’s in the league, especially with the iso Joe play. Jamal will be needed on the floor with Joe to take pressure off of Joe, and to put another strong offensive presence, and ball handler on the floor that teams have to respect. Obviously teams do not respect Josh, Marvin or Al enough offensively to not leave them wide open. With Crawford on the floor, I pray that teams do double and triple Joe. Just my 2 cents.

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I am HAPPY!!!

I know that one day we will have to trade Marvin or Josh, but I am glad we will have them for a few more years. I would have liked to have a new coach by now, but I will be happy just having the cake and not eating it.
It will come down which player develops the trait each is missing to be a STAR(Marvin-Aggression Josh-a Jump shot). I believe that will day the Hawks will be championship bound.

Imagine It

Eastern conf.finals
Josh goes for 35pts 12rbs 8ast and hits the game winning 3 in Lebrons face. SUCKA!!

OR

Marvin goes for 30pts 10rbs 10ast and hits a fade away jump shot in that PUNK Mo Williams grill to win it!!

I will watch with glee as those busters from Cleveland cry, because Lebron was turned away again from a Title.

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GEEMACK-the team with far better talent isn’t necessarily the better team. There have been a number of teams with far better individual talent than the Spurs over the yrs, but the Spurs have proven to be the better team.

ANAKIN JOE-I can see why you are such a Woodson supporter. You seem to share his unwillingness to see beyond the obvious, and like him you can’t seem to accept that you just might be wrong. Both of you blame the players for everything that’s wrong with the team.

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Now that Powe has signed with Cleveland maybe Joe Smith comes here after all.

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Ramon,

Big co-sign

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ROD-I’m not sure you can make a blanket statement about Josh or Joe being hands down the best DEF players on our team. Josh has proven to be our best shotblocker and off the ball defender, but his on the ball DEF is lacking, oompared to AHorford, JJohnson and MWilliams. Playing a constantly switching DEF, and having a swinging door in Bibby at the point, makes it more difficult for our frontline players to concentrate on guarding the individual player they’re assigned to defend.

Marvin has developed into an excellent defender and his DEF versatility is definitely an asset. If I had to determine the best defensive player, I’d chose AHorford. He’s more physical and a better on the ball defender than JSmith, or any other player on our team, and is our best defender when going up against bigger, taller and stronger players. He’s also our 2nd best shotblocker behind JSmith. That type of versatility makes him the best candidate for the teams best defensive player.

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Ken Strickland

Homeboy you are in rare form today. Keep’em on their heals. As you already know, the best defense is a good offense.

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Tyson Chandler is an overpaid injury prone center. I’m glad we did not try to acquire him. Some people on here want a 7 footer regardless if the guy is good or not just so they can say we have a 7 footer. We will see what kind of numbers Tyson puts up now that he does not have CP3 throwing him those lobs.

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ctrim , good point I think Joe Smith is locked out of Boston, and Cleveland with the latest signing. I think we now have a good chance to land Joe.

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Stating the Obvious and fudd21,

I actually have seen Josh guard Kobe, Wade, Iggy, Carter …. You guys have such short memories. I can remember a couple years ago when Woodson thought Josh was the defensive stopper for everyone. One game in particular I seem to recall was Miami. Wade was one on one with Josh at the top of the key, drove and got his shot blocked to preserve the win in Atlanta. Wade did his notorious falling to get a call, but refs did not call it. I can recall last year Vince Carter at the end of games agianst us when he hit the game winner, Josh was defending him, not Marvin. Actually I do beleive that his lateral quickness is better, as well as his recovery ability. His shot blocking ability alone makes up for any lateral quickness he may not have. When you get by Marvin, that’s it. Not Josh. Do you guys really watch the games?

Sautee,

Not sure. I would prefer Joe defensively on Pierce and Lebron depending on foul trouble. I think he does a much better defensive job than Marvin on the perimeter. See the playoffs against Boston, Pierce’s eyes lit up everytime Marvin was guarding him. Turk, I would prefer Marvin.

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Ken Strickland,

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*JJ started off guarding Vince, not Marv.

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Or this shot by Wade where JJ started off guarding Vince and then Josh switched onto him after a screen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLsHMb-tnNI&feature=related

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JM, Beleive me when I tell you it was MY PLEASURE LOL!!!!

Nire, Great Find!!!

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Ken Strickland,

“Marvin has developed into an excellent defender and his DEF versatility is definitely an asset. If I had to determine the best defensive player, I’d chose AHorford. He’s more physical and a better on the ball defender than JSmith, or any other player on our team, and is our best defender when going up against bigger, taller and stronger players. He’s also our 2nd best shotblocker behind JSmith. That type of versatility makes him the best candidate for the teams best defensive player.”

Marvin is by no means an excellent defender. Not sure about Horford being the best but I can understand your point. I would say that if you moved Horford to his natural 4 position, he would not be a better defender at that position than Josh. Regarless of your like or dislike of Josh, to discredit his defensive ability for his career not one year is really disrespectful. He has been first or second on our team over the last 3 years in steals and 1st in blocks. Not Marvin. Not Al, Not Joe. I guess the stats don’t matter though huh. I know the response. He gets all his blocks off of help defense. I wonder who it is he is helping? I would guess that they were mostly wing guys and point guards penetrating. Who is checking those guys?

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Well, Rod at least you’re not alone in your opinion of Marvin’s defense. You always have Sam and the other voices in your head to agree with you. Or do they disagree with you sometimes? I’ve always wondered about that with the schizos.

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Vintage JJ baby!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTqCItzl25Q

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I know he’s defenetly a better player now than he was in that Video, but I wish he still attacked as quickly as he did back then. No doubt, that’s the Woodson Effect on him now….

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Stating The Obvious,

“And Ray and Sautee and the guys on Peachtree Hoops and Lang Whitaker all have said that Marvin became the Hawks’ best perimeter defender this year. I guess none of them watch the games either, huh?”

Peachtree Hoops huh? I guess the Peachtree Hoops guys are the authorities huh. LOL How about asking someone in the league, or coaches. How about asking Woodson what he thinks?

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nire, I wonder if someone told Marvin who to work with to improve his ball-handling.

Ken, stop spoon-feeding these men. They are not YMCA players, they are grown men.

Sautee, I fully admit this team has warts. But so does every other team. And I think that you are one of the few who probably can honestly say, that if we collectively spent as much time with any team (including Boston, Orlando, Denver, Cleveland, etc.) that we would likely find many, many, many frustrating problems with their coach and/or players. Remember all of those “Woody needs to hire an OC like Mike Brown” comments? And what happened in the Cavs-Orlando series? Cavs became a one-man gang with an offense that was easily defended and ultimately failed (Mo Williams is still walking around Cleveland looking for his jumper).

At best, folk can say that Woody missed on one talent (Diaw). So far, no one else who lived in his doghouse has returned to deliver the mythical “I told you so”. Folk admonish him for being a “control freak”, yet they turn around and say that he allows players the freedom to make mistakes. Huh? I’ve read Smith complemented for figuring out how to be the team’s 2nd leader scorer but then someone says that the team doesn’t look for him enough. Is this guy ready to score 25 points a game for a playoff team?

Here’s what I think. I think Woody treats these guys like grown men and expects them to step up like grown men. If Marvin works on his 3-point shooting, then guess what, he will have the freedom to spot up behind the 3-point line throughout the game. If Childress wants to probe the defense for openings on the baseline, go for it. If Flip (who had one of his very best seasons) wants to take his man to the rim, have fun abusing that opposing guard.

What he doesn’t do well is conduct “trial and error” studies during the game. I think he expects his assistants to coach the individual development and likely expects the players to push themselves in the off-season. I’m guessing that there was very little “player development” when WOody was playing. He’s old school. And I think players who have it together (like Horford) are rewarded and find their way in his system. Guys who need stroking (Salim & Diaw) probably dread every moment with Woody. I remember the quote when Bibby joined, something like “I’ll let him run it”. I remember the quote from Bibby’s agent a month ago “Woody allows Bibby to be a coach on the floor”. I remember his genuine delight when Bibby went off on him during the playoffs. Woody wants guys to step up and take it. But he won’t give it to them. He wants them to earn it. Like a man. No Babies Allowed. I always thought that Woody was an AWFUL hire for a young team. But take a look, we’re not that young anymore. 2 players on this team are still on their rookie contracts. Horford is mature being his years and we’ll see about Teague.

Lastly, if Woody clicked on each and every cylinder, I don’t think that we have enough cylinders to catch Boston, Orlando nor Cleveland. So I’m more apt to give him a pass when an i is left undotted because when all is said and done “we are who we are”… the best of the rest.

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Rod, Josh is a tremendous shotblocker but he is only average AT BEST as a man defender which is why despite his tremendous shotblocking ability, he gets very few votes for the All-Defense team. He can make spectacular plays OCCASIONALLY when guarding guys on the perimeter by blocking their shots from behind after they get by him but if you think that is great D you are mistaken. Both Marvin and JJ are FAR better at staying in front of their men on D than Smoove is.

When Smoove first came into the league, he was quick enough to guard SFs but in case you haven’t noticed, he has gained a significant amount of weight over the last two seasons. He is growing into a man and as he gets bigger and stronger, he is going to be even less successful trying to guard guys on the perimeter. Smoove is a PF who can play SOME SF but he would struggle to guard most good SFs for an entire game.

All that said, Smoove has a greater impact on the TEAM’S defensive success than any other player on the roster because of his shotblocking ability. He is NOT the team’s best MAN defender but he is the team’s MOST IMPORTANT defender.

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WHY ARE ALL THE STARTERS EXCEPT BIBBY THE EXACT SAME HEIGHT IN THE PICTURE?

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Tribe,

Lots of teams do that for team publicity photos – take angles and space people to make everyone look roughly the same height. That’s also why Bibby only looks 3-4 inches shorter instead of the 6-8 inches shorter that he actually is…

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Notice how the angle of the photo is slightly tilted upward, Bibby is standing at least a couple feet in front of everyone, Josh is standing in front of Al, JJ is standing in front of Marvin, Marvin and Al both have wider stances than everyone else, etc.

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Co-sign Traceman. Best description of Josh’s defensive impact that I’ve seen around here.

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Somebody give nire a cookie

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AJ, I agree. We’ve had some of the best charater guys in the leauge.

LMAO@ Sautee

Ramon, Exellent post from earlier

Rod, the Last time Josh had to Guard Vice Carter, he shot a Game Winning three right in his face….Josh couldn’t play vince tight bec ausehe dosent have the Lateral quickness to stay with smaller guys like that. If he had, Mr. Carter surely would have taken it to the rack.

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Being able to recover is part of being a good defensive player in football and basketball beleive it or not.

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Ariose,

Why was our best perimeter defender Marvin not checking him? Hmmmmm. Boy this Woodson must really not know what he is doing. LOL

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Rod, Probably because of the “out of bounds” play by the Nets and the scramble afterward. Josh just happend to be near vince so he had to defend him at that point.

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Marvin gets assigned to cover the inbounder a lot on those plays because 1) his length is bothersome and 2) he won’t take the risk of leaving his man. That’s the reason that Phil Jackson almost always had Pippen guard the inbounding player despite the fact that Pippen was the Bulls’ most versatile defender.

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That clip shows a reason why Marvin gets assigned to the inbounder – he deflected the inbounds pass.

Here’s a clip of Reggie’s famous shot. I don’t think that Phil put Pippen on McKie and Harper on Reggie because he was more scared of Derek McKey than he was of Reggie or because he thought Ron Harper was a better defender than Pip…

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AJ,

You’re On.
Let’s make no mistake about it. Josh Smith is our best defender when “he” wants to be. Hands down. He is the only player we got who can dominate the game from a defensive stand point.

I’m not one to base defensive ability solely on blocks but when Josh is zoned in on defense, there’s not a better defender in the league. Not only does he block shots but he has guys looking around to see where he’s at, which is very valuable and doesn’t show up in the box scores. Just ask KG and company from a couple of years ago.

Like what Shaq said about the TD comparison. TD may be better all around but he is “most dominate”. Josh falls into that category. I would say that JJ is our best all-around defender, followed by Al and marvin but Josh is definately most dominate.

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Nire, nice Clip!

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Now notice, who is on the best player on the floor? Joe, who ends up with the game winning block? I’ll let you answer that……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLsHMb-tnNI

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THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE, WATCH JOSH RUN PAST MARVIN FOR THE BLOCK…….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygZBFbVqtxg&feature=related

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Samuel, I always thought about the Harper to Jordan relationship like Marques Johnson to Dr. J. You have to be old school to understand that. But both Harper and Marques were a half-a-hair below their more publicized contemporary. At least until injuries set in. Kind of like Donny Hathaway to Marvin Gaye.

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We should not have to worry about Denver going after Joe Smith. They are trying to re-sign Anthony Carter and sign a wing player to replace Kleiza and Dantay Jones…rumor is possibly Wally Szerbiak.
Hopefully Joe realizes he will have a very good situation in the ATL

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Real GM is reporting that the Hawks are showing interest in and have had preliminary talks with Jason Hart.

Some of you guys have been calling for a pass first backup PG, well here he is!

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And as far as being assigned the big-time players, it depends on the matchup. I think Marvin and JJ have comparable talent as perimeter defenders, but JJ is a little quicker and Marvin is a little longer. When Marvin was healthy, Woody had him cover LeBron, Melo, and Pierce this year. JJ covered Vince and Wade.

Inbounds plays at the end of games are different situations, but the same principles apply – you do it generally based on matchups, but there’s the added twist of needing someone to cover the inbounder. The traditional NBA logic on that has always been “put someone who is long and smart on the inbounder so that they can anticipate and try to deflect the pass.”

The NBA is too fluid a league to say who is our best “defender” overall. Generally, there is post defense, perimeter defense, help defense, and transition defense. Horford is our best post defender (by far). Josh is our best help and transition defender. Marvin and JJ are our best perimeter defenders against swingmen. Acie and Speedy were our best perimeter defenders against PGs, a point that Sautee aptly made. Now, I don’t know who the hell takes that mantle (Teague? Bibby? Crawford? Not that it matters, because Woody never played Acie or Speedy anyway…). But there’s no single answer to who the “best defender” is overall. The game can’t be boiled down like that.

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Samuel, I always thought about the Harper to Jordan relationship like Marques Johnson to Dr. J. You have to be old school to understand that. But both Harper and Marques were a half-a-hair below their more publicized contemporary. At least until injuries set in. Kind of like Donny Hathaway to Marvin Gaye.

Whoa!!! Great and vivid illustrations,especially the Donny and Marvin piece.

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Already thinking next summer try to make a trade for Washington’s Javale Mcgee or Marcin Gortat from Orlando. Know it is not likely (and just odd) to be trying to trade with teams in your division, but centers are scarce. Just my thoughts..

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AJ,

Man, how can you put Donny Hathaway in the same BLOG as Marvin Gaye?

Much less the same sentence.

Maybe a better comparison would be Solomon Burke or Joe Tex to Otis Redding.

What’s that? oh this is a Hawks blog? My mistake.

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Sekou, Why argue when we can just be Fans!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAMchZk1MC0

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Sautee, don’t dis the applejack hat. Donny was a BAD, BAD man.

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Sam from da swats,

$1M is all you’d pay for 14 and 6 from a 4th option?

Oops, there goes the old credibility. I know you’re down on Marvin, but if you can’t keep it real….. well let’s just say you are telling me to keep on scrollin’

And just when I was thinking you might have something worthwhile to say.

Oh well, c’est la vie

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You’re right, but I’d rather want Josh on Lebron or Melo. If you notice, Melo never has big games against us because Josh plays him well. As long as Woody lets Teague do his thing, we’ll be ok.

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Sautee,

Its just a little sarcasm. I just don’t see him being that good of a player. I believe he has reached his ceiling and that’s what he will give us, 15 points 6 rebounds.

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AJ,

Yeah Donny was great but Marvin…….well let’s just say that Marvin and Otis (with a goodly dose of JB) changed one little white boys’ life.

Me and Dan Penn and Spooner Oldham and a host of white boys who loved soul music. I was never the same even when the Beatles hit.

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Sam,

Thanks for admitting the hype.

If time tells a different ceiling will you come back and man up?

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alot of people forgettin about mo evans

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HEY SEKOU,

So we have Siler coming to camp. We are hopeful that we can get Joe Smith locked up soon. Any other noons about how we’re looking to sure up the roster? We also need a back-up small forward. U know if they are looking at any training camp guys, maybe Hunter or Korolev?

Good thing football is abou to start up, cause it’s 3 months til basketball starts and can’t go on like this waiting for updates all the time. Go Hawks!!

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AJ, Amen to that!!!

J.J.M., Mo is solid….but not great…Just OK…but I like him….But i’d roll with Kleiza first lol.

Nire, I agree, but of course josh is is needed to protect the rim so he can’t guard them full-time. But Marvin has really gotten better. Hopefully, he’ll come back with a really nice handle. But it defenely depends on the matchups like you said.

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Yesssir!!!!

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Can I ask a question of all you Woody lovers? Why does a coach with a team full of undersized guys with young legs insist on playing half-court Iso’s for most of the game? Why doesn’t he let them run?

All the best Josh (and Flip and Al) highlights are when the Hawks are pushing the pace. Yet too often we saw this: Bibby walks the ball up and hands it off to Joe, then disappears; Josh goes out to about the 3-point line and doesn’t move; Joe gets doubled, and someone is forced to toss up a desperation shot before the clock expires. If we were lucky, Joe found Bibby for a 3 or Al got a rebound.

The halfcourt game is not where it’s at with a young fast team, esp. one too small to match up w/ the bigger Celtics, Cavs, Magic, etc. You need to let these men RUN!! And Woody is not the man to do that.

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WHY ARE WE LETTING EVERYONE GET BY? OBERTO?

WE WONT SIGN JOE SMITH UNTIL HE FINDS ANOTHER TEAM. NICE STRATEGY. WE HAVE 6 MILLION TO FREAKING SPEND. FREAKING GO INTO THE LUXURY TAX IF U MUST

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Glad the Leon Powe to Cleveland thing happened, now maybe Joe Smith will finally get on board and we can have about as good of a summer as we can reasonably expect.

Btw, does anyone know where I can find old Hawks games, either through torrents or purchase? Specifically, I want to see the game Marvin dominated when we played the Bobcats, but any Hawks games not currently on iTunes will be perfectly fine with me.

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Tribe,

Calm down. The Hawks only need to sign one guy. If they get Joe Smith, we’re good for the summer. You always come here and post rants about the Hawks didn’t sign the most recent random big man to come off the market, usually going to a team that offers more minutes (Oberto will either start or be the first big man off the bench in Washington) and/or a better shot at a title (Powe in Cleveland). If the Hawks strike out on Smith, I’ll be upset. But we’re talking about the 10th man – second big man off the bench. As long as they get SOMEone to fill that hole, mission accomplished.

If Joe Smith goes elsewhere, I’ll gripe. But until then, there’s not point in looking to every big man that comes off the market.

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HawksNeedaBig,

i second the motion.

don’t waste those young legs. don’t waste those run-the-floor bigmen. don’t waste the speedy guards and wingmen.

bring the running game on.

can we change the coach already?

can we get someone who actually has a brain and sees the obvious.

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Nice article Sekou. Again, I feel like many of my fellow bloggers and fans have lost sight of how dramatic a change is occurring in Hawksville. This is honestly, the first off season in a long time where we have been run like a professional orginization. Making sound commitments to our core group and positioning this team to be a serious player for the next several years. These moves represent a seismic shift in the way the Hawks have been run. The resigning of Bibby and Za without a lot of hubbub and to favorable numbers is honestly staggering to this Hawks fan. Like every one else I want Joe Smith in here, but I honestly feel a lot better with the way Sund has been conducting business.

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Rod from College Park,

Bowen and Battier were/are considered a couple of the best perimeter defenders in the league and their blocks and steal stats are very weak.

Steals are mostly accomplished by poaching the passing lanes, which does not mean that you are a good one on one defender.

Blocks are mostly accomplished on help defense (team defense/rotations) rather than on one on one situations.

Look at Iverson: many steals, no defense.
Look at Camby: many blocks, very little man to man defense (have you even seen him shut down other centers??).

Josh is similar in both categories to the above examples: although I do believe that he has the potential to be a very good defensive player, his actual man to man defense is suspect, to say the least.

Another important factor to determine a PF’s defensive hability is his defensive rebounding. Josh is a poor defensive rebounder, mostly due to lack of commitment and because he privileges looking for spectacular blocks rather than use his incredible leaping hability to snatch rebounds.

I’ll give you a very simple example: in the Hawks/Cavs series, Josh managed to make Varejão look like an offensively gifted player in at least a couple of games… on clear cut one on one situations he was repeatedly beaten. Just look at the games again or look for Varejão highlights from last season… you are bound to find him scoring against Josh.

If that does not evidenciate that he is not a good overall defensive player than we should not even lose our time trying to convince you.

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Sekou

I would say this about Rob Kurz, he might be an upgrade from Mo Evans at SF. So, if the Cavs pass on him, then maybe we should consider. There is more then one way to skin this cat.

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Loren Woods & Jason Hart?, sorry still struggling with those 2 names. Amazing to see Solo, Shelden and one-legged Powe get contracts before we get a back-up forward. Just when I think Mikki Moore would be a horrific choice, Loren Woods’ name is mentioned. Geez.

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The Truth- they actually have plenty of time

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Sekou, 2 questions for you.

1) If Flip is signed, do you think that he will take away minutes from Teague? (like Flip took minutes away from Acie last year).

2) What is the holdup with Joe Smith? Does he not like our offer, or is he just keeping his options open?

I know that he would be the 2nd big man off the bench, but he still has some skills, and he could help Josh with his game. (I think Ty Hill needs all the help he can get).

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Vava74 and Traceman,

“Bowen and Battier were/are considered a couple of the best perimeter defenders in the league and their blocks and steal stats are very weak.”

No comparison. These guys have Duncan and Yao behind them. You can play much better defense with a defensive force in the middle. The Hawks back inn the day would funnel everything to Dikembe. These guys funnel everything to Yao and Duncun.

“Another important factor to determine a PF’s defensive hability is his defensive rebounding. Josh is a poor defensive rebounder, mostly due to lack of commitment and because he privileges looking for spectacular blocks rather than use his incredible leaping hability to snatch rebounds.”

Totally untrue. It depends on the system. Dominique was considered not to be a good rebounder, but he was not asked to rebound on the old Hawks teams. When the ball was in the air, he was told to get out on the break. Since you guys keep talking about his perimeter defense, what power forwards in the league run right by Josh? He does play power forward right? Can Marvin check any power forward in the league? Camby was voted first team all defense, but I guess that does not matter huh. He is a terrible man to man defender. Ok!!!!! You don’t build those kind of numbers over a five year period being a terrible defender in any way. If that was the case, everyone would be able to do it.

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Daniel

NBA training camps will open towards the end of September around September 29th or 30th; if you consider that a lot of time, then maybe. However, since the early birds have already gotten the worms, we are now talking about the availability of par player at best with only a few exceptions. So, I would think of setting an earlier pseudo-deadline just to motivate the process. If we don’t, we might lose negotiation leverage if we are perceived to be in a desperation mode which could happen.

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Heh….why is there such a big deal being made about the marginal difference in height amongst the members of our starting backcourt? Is this something new?

Anybody ever hear of a guy named Billy Knight?

Ramon ,

Your 6:02 p.m. post from yesterday. Bravo ….

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Ray, Yeah lol. It looks like the Louisvillle prez is beheind him so, it should blow over real quick. But he should Get some Kobe(Gold Digger protection program)Insurance just to be on the safe side hehehe….

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By the way, were there any lyrics to that song? All I can remember (lyrically) is wiggle, wiggle, wiggle. But then again, the point of the video had absolutely nothing to do with lyrics, did it? Never mind.

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Rod,

Your last post is so wrong that I don’t know where to begin. You think all that Bowen and Battier do is funnel people to Duncan and Yao?? I guess that’s why Bryant takes about 10 off-balance pull-up jumpers every time he plays the rockets and Spurs, right? Because of Yao and Duncan. Ok. Idiot.

And Marcus Camby can’t check any center man-to-man. That’s why the Nuggets defense IMPROVED last year after they traded him. Idiot.

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Rod,

At 6′7″ and 230 chiseled pounds, I’d say Joe is big enough to play the 3. More importantly, he’s strong enough. I think the question is whether there is an advantage for him at that position, and the answer is that there isn’t enough of one against enough opponents to play him there. I always saw Joe as a 3 or a big 2 that has nearly the skills of a 1 when it comes to ball-handling (he doesn’t have the natural passing skills of a 1, if you ask me).

The idea is to play a guy where he can take the most advantage of what he has, especially if you have somebody next to him that can play one of the positions he’s capable of playing, but can’t maximize himself in. Because of his size and his ball-handling capability, Joe is best used as a 2. While most 3s won’t match his ball-handling, there are enough of them that are big enough to give him problems.

I have no problems with playing Joe at the 3 in the right situations. All or even most of a game isn’t the right situation in most cases, in my opinion. If there is a team we can successfully play small ball against all night, then I’m all for it. But that won’t be very many nights, and I don’t see it being most of the season, either. Fit is everything.

Marvin is adequate enough at the 3, so we can afford to let Joe take advantage of playing at the 2. Most 2s can’t guard him well.

But that’s just my opinion. That, and we need Marvin in at the 3, at least as long as we’re running the frontcourt we currently have. I don’t see a big center of starting caliber anywhere in our immediate future. So we’re better served with a trio of 6′9″ guys with length, than we are with two 6′9″ guys and a guard who’s capable of playing small forward.

Again, just my opinion. Sure, JJ can play the 3. But is that really the best fit for us, all season long?

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Truth- I would classify that as plenty of time. I hear your points. I just don’t think the Hawks want to be bidding against themselves. Especially if Joe Smith’s options are drying up.(see above)

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If not you should!

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me, my 8 track, squeeky old cadillac, a lady and lou rawls is all i needed when i was 17.

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O’Brien & Daniel,

Looking @ the Hawks roster @ this point and trying to figure out the direction Sund is going in is kind of a struggle.

I believe Sund wants to sign Joe Smith for 1 year and not 2 because of JJ’s extension and the cap possibily being lower next year. If he can’t get Joe S. to sign for 1 year, then he will probably just go with Hunter as Smooth’s back up. I think Siler and Korolev have a really good chance of making the roster this year. Beyond that, I’m not sure if he will sign more than 13 players. Regardless of whether Sund gets Joe S. or not, I see Marvin playing some minutes @ PF when Crawford and JJ are @ SG and SF. Add Bibby to that line up and you have 4 really good perimeter shooters on the floor. It will be hard for the defense to double JJ then!

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Sekou,

Drop Brian Skinner’s name the next time you talk to Sund or Pendergraft

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i knew it! rod, replied “agreed” to ray comments. durn things change just by bringing soul music into the equation. change the durn world.

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Loren Woods? Sekou, next time you talk to Sund slap him. Or suggest Charles Shackleford, anyone but F’ing Loren Woods.

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Rod,

I think the most important thing at this point is realizing that we have these options now, and to exploit them when the opportunities present themselves, while not sticking with certain lineups when they don’t work. Woody and his staff need to brainstorm on this, and get together with the veteran players (which is the entire backcourt with exception of Teague) first, and make this happen as a complete unit.

I see great opportunities for a versatile and dangerous team, and a chance at some serious chemistry.

Astro Joe,

What?? Loren Woods? Who said that? If that’s what Sund is after, then I’m right in the slap-happy line with you. Save some slaps for me! I didn’t know you were from the Slapabro tribe. Me too!

By the way, you need to go with the “ATTACK THE RIM” tag line. I’m tellin’ you…you gotta rock that before Clyde steals the rights and tries to make a t-shirt out of it. Hell, sell the idea to the ASG as a replacement/upgrade to the “Highlight Factory” and you might make some dough on the back end. Fa Real!

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Ray and AJ, Great points. Joe Cannot play there full-time. In my eyes Marv is the perfect example of your avg. prototypical SF. Along with guys like LeBron and Melo of course. I’m speaking strictly from a size point of view.

Ken Strick, Or would could bring back Flip mid-season(if he’s available) if things get ugly.

…..OK, who the heck is Jason Heart? The name sounds familiar but i’ve never seen or really heard of a guard by that name. I know theres a big man naed Jason that plays for the Sixers…he’s the only player that comes to mind.

Rod, I think you meant frontcourt lol.

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Eww *attacked

lol

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One name for me that keeps coming to mind is Bruce Bowen. I know we need two other bigs, but if they’re considering Flip or Hart. I’d much rather see Bowen brought in. To have Bowen and Evans on the bench to come in and harass opposing players for periods in the game would be a great to get the transition game going for Teague and Crawford on the 2nd unit. Another thing Bowen brings on the 2nd unit is the ability to hit the corner 3 with consistency. With this roster, JJ’s offense won’t be missed unbearably when he’s resting, but his defense will. So I say have Bowen on the bench, who’s defense is comparable.

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Goodness! I actually half way agree with a Rod comment and to think not a sentence of Marvin bashing. I for one can’t wait to see Jamal and JJ on the court together. People can talk about the low percentage and volume shooting all they want but Jamal brings an element that has not been here since JJ has, another bonafide scorer on the floor. This should lower JJ minute and as Rod said (still can’t beleive Im agreeing) take away some doubles when they play together.
Ok KevinA come on and give us your negative comments about Jamal so I can come down off my high.

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Rod & Ray

Just to add to the discussion about JJ size advantage, listed below is a power ranking of the top 10 SG as sourced from cbssports.com:

1) KOBE BRYANT, SG 6’-6” WT 206 LBS
2) DWYANE WADE, SG 6’-4” WT 216 LBS
3) TRACY MCGRADY, SG 6’-8” WT 223 LBS
4) MANU GINOBILI, SG 6’-6” WT 205 LBS
5) JOE JOHNSON, SG 6’-7” WT 240 LBS
6) BRANDON ROY, SG 6’-6” WT 211 LBS
7) RICHARD HAMILTON, SG 6’-7” WT 193 LBS
MICHAEL REDD, SG 6’-6” WT 215 LBS
9) ALLEN IVERSON, SG 6’-0” WT 180 LBS
10) RAY ALLEN, SG, 6’-5” WT 205 LBS

As shown, what stands out more for JJ is not so much his height but his weight. Perhaps this explain some of the criticism that been directed at him. Despite having his huge size advantage for a SG, JJ hasn’t yet mastered his post-up game to fully exploit the mismatches. I have seen on many occasions when he is guarded by a smaller defender, instead of being aggressive with a post move, JJ will just settle for a jump shot. Granted he is doubled (or even trebled) teamed most of the time, but some times he is not and he doesn’t exploit the situation this way; mainly because JJ is a natural jump shooter. That is his natural instinct. At this point in his career, he needs to reprogram himself and expand is game. Looking forward, we need players that can help spread the defense to make this opportunity available to JJ. However, JJ most continue to work on that part of his game to make the strategy work.

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David Harrison. And no, I don’t want him, but I’d rather see him in a Hawks uniform than Loren Woods.

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Jhan,

We actually agree. You can’t have it both ways. So if a guy has been in the league for 5 years and has almost 1000 blocks and close to 500 steals, how can you possibly overlook that and say none of that matters? There is a reason why Josh is considered a better player than Marvin. It is because he is a better player, and I can make an educated guess that it is not because of his offense. My points actually have not been proven incorrect. Others have voiced their OPINIONS, which I responded to with facts. No need to try to figure me out. I’m good. My basic and overall arguement since I started posting here is that Josh is better than Marvin, which is proven by stats and contracts. Marvin is a bust, which is proven by stats and contracts. Whats so hard to figure out? Actually the only people that I talk to who have a high opinion of Marvin are people on this blog, and a small percntage of fans and management of the Atlanta Hawks. No one else including athletes and entertainers who I deal with on a weekly basis thinks highly of the guy. I even have a good friend who played football for the Tarheels in the 90’s and bleeds tarheel blue, who calls me on a regular basis and tells me how disappointing the guy is. As Sam from the Swats said, there were not any other teams trying to pry Marvin away from the Hawks(restricted or unrestricted). I’m sure there are some teams in the leage who would love to have a great player such as Marvin. What team woouldn’t want a guy who can shut Lebron James, and Carmelo Anthony down. LOL

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Truth, IDK, you may be right, but I can’t remeber JJ ever struggling to score points on a post up. But like you said, that doesn’t mean he has masterd the craft.

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The Truth,

Great post. That is why I am stating that JJ can play the three with no problem. I see him being similar to Paul Pierce. I think Pierce used to be the 2, but once Boston got Allen, they moved him to the 3. Same scenario for us. Crawford is to good to be a bench player, and he might well be our best offensive player. I guess my point was proven wrong agian huh. LOL. Great post.

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Hoops- I hear you, and I am sure that the Joe Smith deal is coming down to length of contract. If we extend Joe at 15-16 mil. and have Joe Smith at 3-4 mil, we should still be fine. Of course, that would limit us from making any other moves next off season, but I would probably do it. I guess we will see what Sund and/or Smith is willing to do. Trying to read between the lines with Sekou. It seems that the Hawks have made an offer and are closely monitoring the Smith situation

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Another question for all you smart guys. What 3 in the east would be a problem for JJ? Pierce, Granger, Young, Prince, Deng, Lebron….. I think Cleveland is similar also in the fact that once they got West, they put Lebron at the three. Joe on paper seems to be a mismatch for most 2’s but our offense does not take advantage of that. He actually does not post up much. Mostly ISO’s, which is crazy when you really think about it. Crawford at 6′5 is a better matchup for most of the 2’s in the east. Allen, Hamilton, West, Pietrus, Gordon (traded)….. guess I’m wrong again.

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The problem with JJ playing the 3 is our frontline would be two 6′9″ guys and a 6′7″ guy.

In short spurts or against certain teams I love JJ playing the 3. Last year our best lineup offensively was Bibby, Flip, JJ, Josh & Horford. Defensively – not so great.

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Daniel…

Powe agreed to terms with the Cavs… however, he isnt expected to play til Feb…

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Rod,

I said there is more of an advantage for THIS TEAM to have JJ at the 2 spot. If we didn’t have a 6′9″ PF as our center, and a 6′9″ SF as our power forward, I would have far less of an issue with it.

But we don’t. And I can’t remember anybody who said that Marvin was better than Josh. If that were the case, how come nobody is having a problem with Marvin getting $37 million and Josh getting $58 million? I haven’t heard a peep. Likewise, nobody said Marvin was shutting down Lebron and Carmelo Anthony.

What people HAVE said is that Marvin is quick enough and big enough to bother guys like that when he’s playing good defense. The man is 6′9″ and 245 lbs. He has a 7′3″ wingspan. Who would you rather have on those guys, JJ? How about 6′5″ Mo Evans? Not me. You don’t want JJ on those guys because you need him to save his energy for offense. You don’t want Mo on those guys because he’s too small.

This whole business about Marvin being possibly our best perimeter defender seems to be a confusing concept. I’ll break it down, since it’s a subject of argument. First, who among our guards is a good defender? Bibby? Stop with the stale jokes. How about Jamal? No real history of ball-hawking. Teague? He’s a rook. Flip? He isn’t bad, but he wasn’t good all that often either. Mo Evans? He played the 3 too much, and got burned quite a bit there. That leaves Marvin. Marvin is quick enough to play on the perimeter, and is not keen on playing post defense or blocking shots. He has the quickness. He has the size. He has the wingspan. He does not have the post defending mindset, nor the shot-blocking instincts. He does not over-commit very often and has become better at lateral movement.

Thus, he is our best perimeter defender. Not our best on-ball defender. Our best PERIMETER defender. When he’s on his game.

What about JJ, you say? He’s capable of being our best perimeter defender. He has a great combination of strength, quickness, and stability. But he does take plays off. He doesn’t bother people enough with his size. And because his greatest responsibility is on offense, we only get to see his defensive prowess in spurts. And I think part of it is mindset. Ask Kobe how much of a difference that makes….

What about Josh Smith, you say? NOT a perimeter defender. Sure, he could do it, but Josh lacks the discipline and mindset of a guy like Bruce Bowen. Yet, he has ALL of the physical tools to be better than guys like Bowen, Artest, and Battier. He also has an incredible shot-blocking instinct, an ability to get steals where others just can’t, and can get into the collective heads of the entire opposing team on defense, when he’s on his game.

But perimeter defense is not the best place to utilize him, and that’s NOT where he is utilized. As Samuel astutely noted, nobody on this team can flat out dominate on defense like Josh can. One more time…that’s not done from the perimeter.

Besides, you don’t want your best shot-blocking/shot-bothering presence out there chasing guards around the arc, do ya? I know I don’t.

Anyway, a lot of this comes down to one fact. You don’t like Marvin, and you want him out of the starting lineup. Well, until we can get bigger at the 5 spot, I have news for ya: it’s not a good idea.

One more fact for you, since you claim to have a plethora of them that you keep telling us about (other than his stats, I can’t think of any, but whatever): Marvin didn’t pick himself #2 in the draft. Billy Knight did. Case closed. If 14 and 6 is a disappointment, then it’s a disappointment. Yes, I agree, I want to see more. But where this guy was picked said more about the guy who picked him than anything else.

I’m not telling you that your opinion is wrong. But don’t come around here talking like everybody else here has opinions and you have facts.

You’re from College Park. I thought folks from that spot new plenty about how to Keep It Real …..

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“What’s the difference in that and 3 6′9 guys? It not like Marvin plays big. He can’t guard any 4’s, so what’s your point? In the playoffs we could not defend or score. Wouldn’t you want to be able to at least do one?”

1) Marvin can guard some 4s. Not all 4s are really 4s, and not all of them are in-the-paint operators. I’ve seen Woody play Marvin at the 4 plenty of times. I’m surprised you missed that.

2)Funny that you mention we couldn’t defend or score in the playoffs. Well now. You can’t blame Marvin, could you? He was out for most of the playoffs, only playing spare minutes. Strange thing is, I seem to remember when they put him in there against Miami in one of those games, dude reeled off 10 points REAL fast. After that, he didn’t get to play hardly again. Marvin scores if you run plays for him. It’s that simple. He’s our 4th option, and sometimes our fifth. We don’t run plays for him. Yet he gets 14 ppg. Weird.

3)The difference is not all about height. Have you watched how JJ gets rebounds? He doesn’t usually get them by going deep into the paint to fight for position for them. He also doesn’t outleap guys for them. As strong as Joe is, we don’t get to see that strength used the way it could be. It’s mindset. Put Joe at the 3 and see if he gets more rebounds than Marvin. Doubt it.

Another thing, total size makes a difference. Marvin is taller, has a greater wingspan, and weighs more. One more time, would you rather your 4th/5th option get a defensive assignment for the duration of the game, or do you want to wear out your 1st option with it? Even a Woody hater wouldn’t call Woody that stupid.

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Rod – were you aware that Josh Smith averages less than one rebound per game more than Marvin?

Josh plays PF – a position that demands rebounding – but doesn’t really rebound any better than our SF. Using your logic wouldn’t that make Josh a “bust”?

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Jhan,

Josh – 7.4 RPG for career
Marvin – 5.5 for career

You do the math.

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Also, Marvin was coming off Back and Wrist injuries in the playoffs while he was defending Lebrick. Not to mention that his conditioning couldn’t have been top notch at that time.

If you want to judge Marvin’s perfomances against LeBrick or Marshmello from last season try games where he was healthy.

The December home(win) game or the Rematch on March 4th where we lost on a JJ buzzer beater. The Febuary game where he dropped 31 on Melo when Bibby AND Horford were out.

What about the 28pts he dropped on the Wiz on the last day of a back to back. What about the 29 he dropped in Charlotte when Joe was out? What about the 18-21 FT’s he hit? I beleive he had a 14 rebound game also…

The man is solid. If we ran plays for him he would average OVER 20ppg EASY. He’s a FOUL MAGNET If he doesn’t get if from the feild, he’ll get it from the line. One thing that hasn’t changed since he was drafted is his potential. It has more to do with MIKE WOODSONS play calling than it has to do with Mr. Williams.

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The reason I said it’s not gonna happen, is because if Marvin was our ist option EVERY night we wouldn’t win as many games. BUT, that doesn’t meant the man is not capable of putting up big numbers. But this is a TEAM sport and MARVIN IS PLAYING HIS ROL TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE OVEREALL SUCCESS OF THIS TEAM. Nothing more, Nothing less. He’s a great character guy. He’s not cring for touches like T.O, he wants to win. That’s the goal. TEAM SUCCESS. Individual accolades are just icing on the cake.

YOU KNOW IT’S TRUE TOO. If it weren’t, Antione Walker, Steve Francis, and Stephon Marbury wouldn’t be put of jobs right now.

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UGA, I agree with that. I would also have to say that with his limited offensive role and the fact that our coach has no imaination on offensively, he already is one of the best SF’s in the leauge.

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You are right about him being a Foul Magnet, plus he makes them.
He’s already developed his outside shot, he’s getting better with his back to the basket and he’s been working on his ball handling. If that improves where he is able to drive and get to the basket, then watch out. He’s only 23 I think. He’s about to turn into one heck of a player.

He’s also shown the abililty to hit CLUTCH shots. That first game in Boston where he hit the 3, eventhough we lost. Plus the game at home against Washington he hit the go ahead 3.

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Marvin is the 5th best starter we have on our team, and the second best natural scorer. If Marvin went to Miami, Philly, Washington, Utah, Portland, Denver, and many other teams, he’d easily be the 2nd or 3rd best player. One thing about Marvin (and Smooth) is that you can easily see improvements in their game each season. I do see Marvin being able to average 18 ppg in an offense. If Marvin went to New York today he would very easily be their BEST player, while putting up 23 a night. The thing that stands out for me about Marvin is he’s getting to the point with his jumper, that every time he shoots, you think its going in. And he is getting more and more comfortable penetrating the lane to draw fouls.

I used to hate his defense, but now you can actually see that he’s improved to one of the best three defenders on the team. Someone said that Pierce eyes would get big when he’d see Marvin guarding him. Well I guess that can be said that Shaq eyes got big when Deke would guard him, or Kobe loved to see Bowen come. Pierce is one match up problem for most 3s in the league. That doesn’t make Marvin that much worse.

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fudd21

Goodness! I actually half way agree with a Rod comment and to think not a sentence of Marvin bashing. I for one can’t wait to see Jamal and JJ on the court together. People can talk about the low percentage and volume shooting all they want but Jamal brings an element that has not been here since JJ has, another bonafide scorer on the floor. This should lower JJ minute and as Rod said (still can’t beleive Im agreeing) take away some doubles when they play together.
Ok KevinA come on and give us your negative comments about Jamal so I can come down off my high.

I never said Crawford can’t change his style of play. To get a meaningful amount of minutes he will have to. Niremetal is willing to eat shoes in his belief that this will happen.

Crawford seems to have the same defensive skill of Bibby. The idea of a trifecta of great shooters will be hard to phathem if they can’t play defense.

With JJ playing iso in a contract year it will be interesting to see how many times he gets the ball with enough time to make a play.

Crawford scores much better from the left side of the floor so maybe JJ can play point to get them on the floor together.

If Crawford can play defense and JJ moves to the 3 the offense might work out great. Anybody want to bet some shoe eating on that one?

Crawford plays his best offense in the 4th qt and I realize he can be quite good in spurts. But if you look at his 2nd qt and 3rd qt FG%, you see dismal shooting. In spite of my reservations I hope Crawford has a great year and becomes a leader on the team. I believe he should be given every opportunity to apply his skills.

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Ramon, I’m glad that he is doing community projects, but I don’t think that has much to do with him being traded in the future. Not nearly as much as that trade kicker in his contract. If we could trade Josh for Andrew Bynum, I don’t care if dude is handing out sneakers at the GoodWill store… trade him (sorry Sam/Rod).

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Bynum’s not ready yet. Mabe if he stays health for a few seasons. Even then, He is not on Smooves level….yet.

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I’d do ythat trade. But the point I was trying to make is that a summer camp or two should not stop Sund from improving the team if he thinks he can do that by trading any player including Smith. I think Sund may have been the one who traded Seattle legend (from his high school days and days at the state school) Gary Payton to Milwaukee for Ray Allen.

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IN ORDER UGA JOE, JOSH, CRAWFORD, HORFORD, MARVIN, BIBBY, ZAZA, MOE, TEAGUE, AND THE REST OF THE TEAM.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

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Darrell, I take Teague over Zaza AND Moe, lol. Its just something about him. At worst, I see him being Ellis.

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Ramon how can you say that and we haven’t seen him play on a nba level.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

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IN ORDER JOSH, JOE, MARVIN, HORFORD, BIBBY, ZAZA, CRAWFORD, MOE, TEAGUE.

This list will reflect the new pecking order by the end of the year.

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Pecking order? What the hell does that even mean?

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jhan,

“I was comparing last years stats. I know we’ve had this argument before but what they did their 1st years in the league mean nothing to me. Just like what position they were drafted. I’m concerned about what they are giving the Hawks now.”

That is were the problem lies. You can’t just use last years stats. Marvin was hurt a lot and Josh missed time also. A better way to judge is using career stats. They both played from the time they came into the league. That’s part of my whole argument. You are judging things from last year, I am judging from day 1.

Darrell Starks,

I agree. I would put Bibby before Marvin. More important to the team.

Doug,

You were not around when those comments were made. Last year when the Josh contract issue was going on. Maybe you were, but I don’t remember you. No he did not dunk on me, he would probably fall on his way to the hoop.

Ariose,

I honestly don’t think Marvin would have made a difference in the playoffs. In the Cleveland series we scored 72,85,82 and 74, while Cleveland scored 99, 105, 97, and 84. Not being able to put the ball in the basket was our problem, and that dumb switching on everything, along with not doubling Lebron like they did Joe, was are issue. Marvin would have had no impact. When he got hurt, it forced Woodson to use Flip more who was a much better offensive option than Marvin last year.

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Doug,

Good points. The first one was one I was trying to make. But Rod swears those deplorable words were uttered, and I’m waiting to see which “lunch buddy” will get the conviction, and I’m sure there is a witness or two available to testify to the crime.

But I’m not holding my breath…

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Each time I come back to Hawks page, I’m hoping to see an article that says we signed Joe Smith. I can’t understand why the Hawks haven’t made him an offer he can’t refuse, its not like they have viable options. Oh well, there’s always tomorrow…

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ROD FROM CP-career stats in many cases are even less reliable in judging a players worth than season stats. Josh has been a starter his entire 5yr career, while Marvin has started only 3 of his 4 yrs. That means Josh has played far more gms and mins that Marvin. Also, having been a starter 2 more yrs than Marvin, Josh has become a primary scoring option while Marvin has been a secondary scoring option. Josh gets plays called for him while Marvin doesn’t. How can you fail to see those issues as a difference maker?

You know ROD, people keep making viable and insightful points in support of Marvin abilities. Yet, you continue pushing your agenda by referencing isolated plays and incidents to sum up your perception of his overall abilities. To continue your position in the face of so much logic and common sense leads me to wonder if your problem is a low basketball IQ, or a low overall IQ, or you’re just getting off on all of the attention you’re getting, if not all of the above. I’m all for everyone presenting their opinions, but at least let them be informed opinions.

The thing that impressed me the most about Marvin is how he managed to improve his DEF, long range shooting, ballhandling, turnover ratio and overall confidence in just one off season. I’d love to see Woodson analyze the OFF strengths of Josh and Marvin then design OFF plays and options to take advantage of those strengths. Or at least allow one of his assistants do it. Phil Jackson put his ego aside and allowed one of his assistants to design the triangle OFF, which he’ll ride into a HOF coaching career. Sometimes, a HC’s greatest strength is in recognizing his weaknesses or shortcomings and relying on the strengths of his assistants.

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Ken Strickland,

It’s similar to how you consistently make the same statements about Woodson, everytime you post. Interesting that you would throw your 2 cents in. Woodson must have dunked on you. No problems with IQ thru college, life or basketball, but hey believe what you want. It won’t stop my bills from getting paid. Plays are run for him, he just does not finish them at a high rate. He passes out of the post most of the time. Josh became a scoring option because he is more aggressive, and he is a better player(back to my original point). I choose not to live in the world of if’s, so I can’t relate to that other nonsense you are talking.

Nire,

Keep looking. Might help you with your investigative skills. See if you can find someone who uses the word clown. Good luck.

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This going to be our year just wait its time to shock the world again tell sund to sign Joe Smith and lets crank this season up Tell woody to get everybody on the same page and win one for the A. GO HAWKS!!!!!

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Rod,

You are nowhere near the truth. Going a bit back, ALL DEF teams are overrated measures of a player’s defensive hability: Denver improved defensively as a team without Camby – dramatically – so that should mean something for you.

You should read Charley Rosen’s columns @ foxsports in order to get a differentiated non-hyped oppinion on BBall.

As a point of order, I would like to emphasise that I am very happy with our roster, including Al @ the 5 spot.

What we really need is that J-Smoove realises that he is a role player – a 5 star one – who should concentrate on defense and rebounding. If he did that, he would average 16/18ppg, 12rpg 3apg 3bpg and 2spg easily.

Marvin should get his offensive touches: he is a better shooter, a better penetrator and gets the calls to get to the line.

J-Smoove alienates the officials with his childish behaviour and doesn’t get the calls.

As for Crawford going into the starting lineup and JJ to the SF spot, that would immediately lower our FG% and our defensive capability Would you really want to have Bibby and Jamal on your starting back court on the defensive end??

Right now we have a high FG% with Marvin on the SF spot and (when healthy) a high FG% on the SG spot with JJ.

If we inserted Jamal on the starting line up he would get too many touches and we would have difficulty distributing them effectively. Jamal is better suited as a 6th man who can be quickly removed from the lineup if he is cold (as he often is), just like Flip who had a good year on account of a mix of very good and very bad games.

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Ed, great list. Solomon still getting play on Siris’ Outlaw Country station. Their “Americana” format. Dude’s still recording. An article on “King Solomon” you’ll enjoy.

http://www.honesttune.com/content/view/1030/49/

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For the million time we need flip, the guy is not asking for a lot of money so why let your best player of the bench walk away for nothing its makes no sense, the same old hawks should have kept solo, and flip.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

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Sekou- Please help!! We need some news. I can’t take much more of Rod telling us how terrible Marvin is, and how great he is because he played ball and interacts with “entertainers” It is soooo old.

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A Knicks fanatic told me that Crawford+JJ backcourt will be unstoppable. CC can play real Point Gurard. He is the ideal player to play next to JJ and he’ll make Bibby redundant.

and I was thinking Crawford was just a much better Flip.

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This is for those who appreciated the soul music references:

Sweet Soul Music by Peter Guralnick.

The best ever book about the early years of this genre. I could not give it a higher recommendation. Most excellent.

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Dang, no Joe Smith signing reported this morning. I will check back later.

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Doug,

Once again you are making statements with no knowledge of history. The “Clown” reference was to certain other bloggers. If you notice most of my post and addressing someone, therefore I am responding to earlier post or responding to someone who had my name in their mouth. Sensible huh. So it not sensible for me to base a players merits on what he has accomplished in the league, but I should listen to a bunch of ‘Clowns’ who continuosly base their opinions on things that have not happened. I have never hidden the fact that I don’t like Marvin’s game. If you call it an agenda, you say tomato, I say tomato. I’m not sensible to say that Josh is a better player than Marvin, but all of the stats, contracts, coaches, scouts prove otherwise. Let me give you some advise, invest in a dictionary and look up the word sensible. The statement that Woody NEVER runs plays for Marvin is untrue as well. I’ve had enough of debating with incompetence for the week. Back to lurker mode. You guys can get back to the world of what if’s and maybe’s and Hawks salary cap issues. Peace.

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ROD FROM CP-please don’t think I’m of the opinion you have a low IQ, although I know I presented it that way. I mentioned 3 elements, (1)possible low basketball IQ, (2)possible low IQ overall and (3) seeking attention. You defended 1 & 2, but made no mention of 3, interesting. But regardless, we can agree to disagree, right?

You are very good at manipulating stats and facts to support your contentions. MWilliams was coming off UNC’s bench when Josh was playing 74 NBA gms and averaging 27.7MPG as a rookie. In Marvin’s rookie yr, he averaged 24.7MPG to Josh’s 32MPG. That’s a pretty good head start, don’t you think, and although their mins have been comparable every yr since, Josh has still gotten more MPG, and considerably more mins overall than Marvin.

You also make a habit of overlooking the roles that have been defined and assumed by the 2 players, as well as their individual talents. Josh came into the league as a rebounding shotblocking talent with limited OFF skills. Marvin came into the league as an OFF talent with little rebounding and DEF skills. Both have progressed tremendously and turned those limitations into strengths.

You made the following statement about me: “It’s simular to how you consistently make the same statements about Woodson EVERYTIME(caps mine) you post”. NOW THAT’S AN OVERSTATEMENT IF EVER I’VE HEARD ONE. BUT THAT’S JUST YOU EXAGGERATING AND SPINNING FACTS TO TRY AND SUPPORT YOUR CONTENTIONS.

You seem to think Marvin is the teams weakest link, while I think it’s Woodson. At any rate, Marvin is going to be with us for a few more yrs, while Woodson is going to be with us for at least the coming season. I’ve dealt with Woodson being our HC, although I will never stop making his distractions and shortcomings an issue as long as I feel they’re hendering the team. You have to come to grips with the fact Marvin is an intrigal part of this team, he’s going to be with us for a while and we’re not going to progress to the next level without him.

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Hey guys, totally off topic here. But, I just got a Braves ticket plan, where you get 6 games, 5 this year and next years home opener, plus the right to buy playoff tickets for only $66. I thought it was going to be bad seats, but they are upper box, behind home plate, great view of the field and low row numbers 3-5. Man, I was blown away. Wish my Hawks tickets were like that. I spend more than that on one game.

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Atlanta wants an NBA championship ASG. Please bring the players to ATL, so we can party down peachtree street. That would be one crazy parade. HAWKS 2010 NBA CHAMPS!

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The Word Player

I think that Rod and the rest of you guys need to define what the word PLAYER means to you.

I don’t think Josh is a GOOD BASKETBALL PLAYER!!!!
He can’t DRIBBLE
He can’t SHOOT JUMP SHOTS OR FREE THROWS
Has a LOW BASKET BALL IQ
HE IS AN ATHLETE WHO PLAYS BASKETBALL..HE IS OUR BEST ATHLETE!
HE IS BE PAID, WITH THE HOPES OF TURNING INTO A GREAT BASKETBALL PLAYER!
HIS ATHLETIC ABILITY AND HUSTLE COVERS UP HIS BASKETBALL SHORTCOMINGS!

PS..He is a Great shot blocker

What everyone knows that under a different coach(Dale Brown) or system(Triangle) ROD would not have an argument about points or rebounds, be JOSH would not be the 2nd scoring option. TELL ME HOW MANY PLAYERS CAN YOU SAY CAN’T SHOOT, DRIBBLE, TURNOVER PRONE and LOW IQ, but make 10mil a year and get 30mins a night.

JOSH was lucky to get drafted by the right GM and have the right coach, because BK tried to trade for GERALD GREEN and we see his career.

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Rod: Folks are “incompetent” that don’t adhere to your cherry picking stats system of judging the worth of a player? Because some people understand that some players progress at different rates than others? Because some folks value things such as what type of teammate a player is?? Because some people can see the warts on BOTH players and not be blind to those on one and obsessed with those on the other? Again…and you have had no response…please don’t disappear when Marvin is widely recognized this year as one of the most improved players…as well as valuable secondary options in the league. Int he case of Josh…I would be happy if he could just become a shooter that did not elicit a groan from the crown whenever he hoisted up one of his missles. No one argues that Josh has an incredibly high ceiling…the question is will he ever come cls to that ceiling…will he mature in his UNDERSTANDING of the game and will he develop some facsimile of an outside shot?????

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Rufus, Josh finishes off the fast break as well as anyone. He shoots a higher FG% than anyone on the team except AL. He is our leading shot blocker. Isn’t that basketball? How can someone that dumb be such a good player. As he gets older and his handle improves he will look smarter. If he added 500 more shot attempts (the same rate JJ shoots)maybe he would improve much faster.

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doc- no love on the Shuggie Otis call?

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KevinA

I am not a JOSH HATER!! I think his is overhyped, because he dunks. He is a great athlete and shot blocker and YES that is basketball, but he is our 2nd scoring option. I want him to be a great finisher, shot blocker, rebounder and shot 50%, but as our 4th or 5th scoring option. He has no defined offensive skill. I just think is playing the wrong role for his skill set, and the team suffer because of it.

We were last in 4th qt rebounding last year. If we are going to compete for a championship everyone needs to know their place. Josh is not a scorer.

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Anakin,

That is true. And one’s, putting other teams in foul trouble, limiting the fast break opportunities for opponents, making the opposition work on defense are among other intangibles that come with getting fouled. We seem to play more aggressive on defense when we are driving and getting fouled.

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just posted that same point Kevin

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Rufus1, we just disagree. If JJ and Bibby had better skill sets at feeding the ball to Al/Josh/Marvin/ZaZa we would have a much better offense. What can I say other than I believe we have to potential to be a much better team playing inside out rather than outside in.

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Rufus1

KevinA

I am not a JOSH HATER!! I think his is overhyped, because he dunks.

I do not over hype Josh, in fact it may take this season and yet another for Josh and the rest of our young players to develop and go to the next level. None of our players are super stars including JJ who is a fringe all star.

Last year we saw spurts of better team play. This year and the next Woody and the back court need to work on style of play issues that involve the front court more.

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KevinA

I agree that Woodson and this offense is the Problem. I HOPE IN THE END, I AM WRONG ABOUT JOSH!! I would love to have a home groan superstar.

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Lawd Have Mercy!

Blog is booooorrrring as hell!

If this is what we have to look forward to until training camp, until the season opener….. then I will go nuts! Marvin better than Josh? Josh more valuable than Marvin? Who gives a rat’s ass? They both play for the Hawks and are locked in for years to come!

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yes, Blast… we are in a sad, sad time of the year right now. I hope that get Joe Smith signed if just for nothing else than to give us somehting to opine about.

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Well, the “latest” rumor is that Joe Smith will probably resign(as i reup) with Cleveland. He, like Ben Wallace, probably realizes that no one is probably going to offer much more than a minimum contract.

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OK, I’ll take a stab at starting a new debate… top 5 PFs in Hawks history (I only go back about 25-30 years so feel free to offer up older names if you have them):

1. Kevin Willis
2. Christian Lattner
3. Dan Roundfield
4. Josh Smith
5. Shareef Abdur-Rahim

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Anakin,

I’m too young to remember Roundtree but I don’t like Lattner at number 2. Although he was a viable part of the Hawks team success in the 90’s…

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aj, bill bridges in there somewhere.

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Our team is being structured to grow together. We STILL are a young team, but within two or three years, we’re going to be considered a veteran team with a core group of guys that, like the Pistons, will have played together for a long time.

Whether Woody is there or not, I expect the offense will flow smoothly and will actually have a rhythm to it. I agree that Crawford is going to have to be in the game in order to take some pressure off Joe and allow Joe more shots. Marvin’s ability to continue knocking down open jumpshots is going to make the difference between us being a 90 point per game team and a 100 point per game team.

Al has to develop a more consistent mid-range shot, but I think he and Smoove need to focus more on scoring junk baskets. With their leaping ability, they should be able to snag more offensive boards than any duo in the league.

Smoove needs to do one of two things. He needs to develop a jumper, and KEEP it developed, or he needs to abandon the long-range shot. Does he have no humility? How can you keep jacking up jumpers when you’re probably the worst shooting power forward in the league. That’s pretty sad in itself. He also needs to grow up, stop pouting at referees, and hustle. He and Tyrone Corbin are the only Hawks I’ve ever truly despised at times. Corbin was for the same lack of a jumpshot but keeps on jacking it up reason, but at least he didn’t have an attitude problem…

Let these guys develop, bring along a few right pieces over the years, and see what happens. It could be something great.

Oh, and let’s make the league’s “salary cap” an actual salary cap. None of this luxury tax garbage. Some teams are just getting TOO stacked.

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gwite

Source

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Bob Petit

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BA DA CHOO!

There you go AJ!:)

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Truth,

As I said, it’s only a Yahoo sports “rumor”. Certainly not necessarily any “truth” to it.

But for me, hopefully Atlanta is wise enough to not be offering much more than minimum for him, and it looking at it rationally(form Joe’s viewpoint), we would need to put significantly more than Cleveland on the table.

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“You are not going to help me understand the game of basketball trust me.”

Well there it is. Okay, we can stop trying to discuss things with Rod. When the man himself tells you it’s useless, do you need a better clue? This is still my favorite: “My info is based on facts (and stats).” Oh, that’s just too good…

I think Ariose has the best rebuttal, though:

” But if your opinion of Marvin is truly “based on stats, my knowledge of the game, and situations.” Then there is NO WAY you can be in your normal coherent state of mind and beleive that we didn’t need Marvin in the playoffs.”

Damn. That one hit so hard, I’ll bet Sam felt it all the way over there in the Swats …..

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Ray,

You reckon those “stats” included Marvin falling down 60% of the time?

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O’brien ,

Doesn’t that seem odd to you? The idea of Sund refusing to overpay for a big man? One of the biggest criticisms leveled at him when we learned he was to be our new GM, was the fact that he had a history of picking big men in the draft that never really panned out, then overpaying for veteran big men.

In fact, some of the same people who were only too quick to point those issues out are the EXACT same ones who are now saying that Sund is the reason why we don’t have a big man.

I find it strange that a man both known and criticized for having an apparent fetish for bigs is now the sole, or even main reason why this team has not signed one. Change a long-standing “MO” overnight? That’s about like the Hawks suddenly becoming a run-all-the-time, offense-first, defense-if we feel like it-team. Would you automatically say that this was Woody’s idea?

I’m not buying it…

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I don’t understand the Hawks complaining about “bigs” when they had one in David Anderson. He played in Europe.Yet the Hawks traded his rights to Houston for a 2nd round pick. Houston has signed him to a multi-year contract to become their center. What gives? I understand giving away a big yet complaining about not having enough bigs. The Hawks are playing the same ‘ole games of old-give away a needed player but compain about not having the enough quality players.

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doc,

I don’t know if you’ll remember it, but I once told you a story of meeting Bridges when I was a teen and they had just come to Atlanta. Total class act.

He also blocked out better than ANYBODY I can remember except for Bill Russell. Which is why he rebounded so well at his size.

Hey, we should get Bridges to tutor J-Smash in blocking out!

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RX for boring blog (maybe). Of the Hawks, Falcons, and Braves, who’s best positioned (considering current young talent and ability of GMs to add missing pieces) to get to the most finals (i.e., NBA, Super Bowl, or World Series) during the 5-year period 2010 through 2014 (inclusive)?

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rgbutterfly,

We need a “big” that bangs, rebounds, and defends. Not one that hangs around the perimeter jacking up 3’s.

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ken you are old as dirt rocks and sand. you of all folks, how can you leave bridges off the list? heh heh

bridges came in from st louis didnt he?

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Anakin Joe that’s “Old School” – Donny Hathaway to Marvin Gaye, but the best music. By the way, “What’s Going On” with BASG & getting some Bigs?

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Whass up Officer friendly …..

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Welcome back MV7…..

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good luck Mike…!!!

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Vick just signed a 2 year deal with philly

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Lol…I guess I can’t escape Vick no matter where I move, huh? Plays for the Falcons, goes to prison in northern VA after I move to DC, and now he’s in Philly.

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Whoops, sorry about that. Thought my first one got rejected

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Congrats to Mike Vick!! But we’ll be ready to whup that a$$ on Dec. 6th

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IMUS,

What’s good?

I see MV is back on the NFL scene. Hopefully he does well enough to earn a contract after this two year deal is over. Maybe his story doesn’t end in total tragedy. Hope not. I’m betting Vick is more sick of hearing about redemption than anybody else, and is just ready to play some football. Best of luck, dude. But like Mystikal said, we WILL be aiming at whippin’ that ass when we meet.

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gwite

From reading that Yahoo version of the latest of the Joe Smith Watch, I got the impression it really wasn’t anything new they reported. They just spun the same story in a different way. Since Sund has completely struck-out in the free agency game up to now (outside of our FAs), there is no logical reason to expect this outcome will be any different. If I could compare Sund to a basketball player, I would characterized him as being a player who shows flashes of greatness at times but is a weak finisher around the rim.

As I wrote previously about the contest between the Cavs and Hawks for Joe Smith, if the issue is about money, we should win that battle relative to the L. Tax. Since both teams have similar challenges resigning their star player, we’ll call that even. If the issue is the pursuit of a title, then the Cavs should win since they have a stockpile of quality players and a final contender. Let’s say at this point it’s a draw. Then the final decisive factor is playing time. Since they would have 3 backup PF including the acquisition of Moon and Powe, it would seem to me that Joe would see far-less playing time then he saw last year with the Cavs. I think we would win the playing time battle because Joe Smith would be the first off the bench to spell both Josh and Marvin. So if we have won 2 out of 3 of these battles, WHY CAN’T SUND CLOSE THE DEAL?

Is this about Joe Smith or is it about Sund? Or perhaps neither; it could be about Joe playing for Woody. The speculation continues. One thing is obvious, when this drama is over, it would be wise for Sund to clear the air with a press conference. Otherwise, this speculation will have a full set of legs and a lot of juice.

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Hawks at about 63m in salaries for this year – can’t go over luxury tax line of 69+m set by ASG. This leaves around 6m for the 3-5 remaining players we will sign. Joe Smith only made 1.2m last year. He may have a great agent, basing his value on the Cavs 1st round playoff series. Can’t see him making over 2m per annum over 2 years – I would rather get Rusk or the OKC center than over pay for Smith. On the other hand, I think Smith the elder could teach Smith the younger a few things, and probably Al, ZaZa, RandMo, Garrett, and Hunter as well.

I’m still wondering if we sign Flip and West, and let Gardner go, or just how that will play out. If we sign Flip, practice squad will most likely be West or Gardner, Othello and Siler. Sounds good to me.

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Steve

Not bad, not at all; Exactly that sounds pretty dam good

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The luxury tax line is $69M, but keep in mind that most teams stay $1-2M under that level so that they have room to sign free agents down the stretch, either because of injuries or because a good player that the team wants is waived/released midseason. The Spurs did that this past year with Drew Gooden, for instance.

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I wonder when the Vick jerseys will go on sale. I truly hope he finally gets it and turns his life around. He has too many people in his corner who wants him to succeed in life forget the football aspect…..Sign Joe Smith already and lets get this season started.

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DOC-forgive me my friend. I didn’t think of Bill Bridges until after I’d posted my list. I believe he did come over from St Louis, along with LWilkins, JCaldwell, ZBeatty and maybe PSilas.

I could be wrong, naturally, but I think Joe Smith has made the Hawks his #1 priority, as long as the numbers can be worked out. Considering what he did last yr, especially in the playoffs, I can’t believe his services aren’t wanted by any team besides the Hawks. With his versatility, and being a very experienced vet, he knows Woodson will give him consistent mins.

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Ummm….would I be wrong to get a MV7 Philly Jersey? I’m afraid I might get murked by a few PETA members if I do….or some angry unreasonable Falcon/Matty ice supporters….

Ray, LOL@ 4:53pm post.

Also, you ALL are delsional. Obinna Okezie was CLEARLY the greatest PF to don a Hawks jersey….

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I wish Vick the best. I hope he can get his personal life together and keep it that way….hopefully the wounded bitd will take fligh once again……but we pluckin’ his feathers on Dec 6th….

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Bibby = Can shoot…..but no defense……no ability to quickly penetrate to the hole for the deuce/get fouled and go to the line/and-1. Since he lacks the ability to penetrate, that means no penetration and kick outs.

Teague cant be any worse than bibby at any of those things….except shooting…so if Teague comes in and displays he has the ability to knock down long range shots consistently…..

I think he will take alot of Bibby’s minutes. It’s not hard to imagine that Teague has a good chance of taking Bibby’s job

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Nire, I love mo, really…..but If the right deal comes along…Obviously Joshe Boone isn’t that guy, but If it means hringing Flip back hehehe….j/k

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Ariose

That’s not an outrageous idea at all since Boone salary averages about the same as Mo Evans over the same 2 yr term. However his contract does not expires next year since he has a qualifying offer next year. As stated to help free up cash for Joe. Also, Boone free-throw shooting would be a serious down grade for us since he only shoots 37.6% vs. 82.2% for Evans. I can live with that if we can get these deals done.

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Well you know what will be NBC’’s “FLEX” game on December 6th… Greeting from Berlin on the eve of the World Track and Field Championships… I won’t bore all of you B-Ballers with a update from here. But to say the least, Bolt-vs-Gay on Day 2 is groiwng on the edge of being something just South of the Batttle at Gettysburg…

By the way, S.A.R. should never appear on a list of anything considered “best.” Shoot, Don Adams was a better PF than S.A. Rahim… Mike Sojourner was a better PF than S.A. R.
Bob Petit (is, was, and will always be A BASKETBALL GOD), but he was St. Louis Hawk)

1. Roundfield (most consistent on both ends)
2. Bill Bridges (Too bad most of you never saw him)
3. Len “TRUCK” Robinson (The Big Throwback, the best rent a player trade this franchise ever
made)
4. Paul Silas (3rd worst trade in Hawks history, combined with “Bells” made up for Lou
Hudson’s misdadventures…
5. Kevin Willis (The Black Hole, once the ball went into the post, it never reemerged)

Well, time for lunch… Have a great weekend… You can catch the meet online on the BBC, CBC, and Universal Sports except when NBC and Versus are broadcasting…

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ken you know i am just playing and know we are peers.

really glad to see bridges get some respect.

zelmo might have been our best ever if he had stayed but as hawks fans arent we always talking about what might have been.

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If we can sign a useful big man to back up our bigs (Smith) and if Teague is mature enough to play HIS game (and Woody is able to let him play) we could grow alot.

If we sit back and hoist 3’s (Woody’s and Bibby’s game) we will stagnate.

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I want to throw out the name Tyrone Corbin. Certainly not a top 5 PF, but maybe the most unattractive person I have ever seen.

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JSS: Thanks for the Track and Field info, I’m a big fan.

Suatee: Thanks for the Les Paul shotout, he now joins the big jam session in the sky. Rashid Ali, former Coltrane drummer par excelance recently joined that goup as well.

I am stubbornly clinging to the notion that hiring Antonio Davis as a big man “consultant” is just as important as signing Joe Smith, if not more so.

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Sautee- Thanks for the reminder. RIP Les Paul

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I wonder if the Warriors would trade Ronny Turiaf for Mo Evans and R. Morris. Biedrins, Maggette, Wright, & Randolph will probably play in front of him. That will save them .8M as well.

Turiaf would give us that bruiser off the bench in place of Morris.

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Anakin Joe,

Sounds good to me. I bet you are starting to wonder if we are going to be able to sign Joe Smith as well. I’m starting to doubt that it’s going to happen. Craig Smith plays hard. A little undersized, but you can’t measure a guys heart!

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Hoops,

I think Joe Smith is an after thought as well. I don’t agree with those that say we shouldn’t bid against ourselves only b/c we are in need of his talents and vet savvy then any other playoff team.

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Having David Anderson would be better than a future #2 at this point. Maybe Sund has a plan.

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I hope that report about Joe Smith is none sense, watching the second to last regular season game of the Hawks vs Cleveland again showed me Joe’s value! Joe, can play inside and out. He’s not a true banger, buts he’s willing to mix it up. Which is fine because Zaza can be the real banger and Joe can concentrate on scoring. Personally I don’t want to go into the season with Morris and ??Siler as our backup PF/C.

Earlier this summer I thought we should upgrade Mo, but after re-watching games my opinion has changed. Mo is tweener, but he was asked to guard the other teams best player all the time, whether they were PG/SG or SF. He got beat a lot, but everyone gets beat a lot against great players, but Mo makes defenses adjust because of his ability to shoot the 3. I have a better appreciation for his toughness and his athleticism watching the games again. We need to add another big, not trade a productive player for an unknown commodity.

I still believe that SUND is going to get it done with Joe Smith and then we can wait until training camp to see what we really have!

GO HAWKS!!

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darrell- Joe Smith is not a washed up non-productive player. Is he an All-Star? no, but that is not what we need or are looking for. He is a savvy vet who keeps in great shape (very few injuries) who is comfortable coming off the bench. He would provide leadership and depth to this team. Remember how important having a veteran bench was last year with the difference that Flip and Mo had on the team. Don’t you want a front court player like Flip? (not that he plays like Flip)

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right ken, couldnt remember jumpin joe, it wasnt just the pistol but a new league to contend with. cost us a few great players including thompson from nc state? it was a very good team and maybe the best ever if kept together. maybe this crew we have now will meet those expectations now that the nucleus is kept. good work sund.

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I hope we are’nt serious about Mark Blount…. I would have rather kept Solo. Blount is a 7ft jump shooter =he will not help with defending the paint and post scoring – If we are now at the bottom of the barrel then Petro would be my choice……..
Should have signed Hollins IMO

Hoops =We have like minds I swear…. Turiaf would be a great fit for us,I love his hustle and gritty play. Brandon Wright is intriguing to me, He has a nice game -I just think he’s in the wrong system……….

I wonder if GS would take R.Morris for Wright -probably not but I want that stiff off our bench along with Gardner and Hunter. Can we get some guys that can actually play to fill out the bench…….

Gerald Green comes to mind as well as Craig Smith -they wont play alot anyway and we upgrade for roughly the same money.

Congrats to Vick….glad he didnt sign in our division-i thought he was going to the Panthers….. Whew !!!

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Imus, at this point I would welcome Blount with open arms. As for Vick, the Panthers missed a golden opportunity. He would have brought excitement and fans to the stadium in Carolina. What the heck kind of incriminating evidence that Jake Delhomme have on the franchise is what I want to know. Not only did they not sign a replacement for Delhomme (after his dismal 5 interceptions in a playoff game), they rewarded him with a contract extension….DAH

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nire, I think people (at least me) are thinking that Mo is less effective at SF and with 4 guards likely earning consistent minutes (3 for sure and hopefully Teague), it feels like Evans is “expendable” and could be used to bring in a comparable player who has the size to make a different type of contribution. Plus, in the case of Craig Smith, we get the benefit of an expiring contract, which as you know, is something that we likely need next summer.

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ken, didnt we lose zelmo too to the aba, like to denver?

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To Utah. Gee, even back then we couldn’t get, or keep players.

Must have been the “Woodson factor”. lol

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doc, what do you make of the national debate we’re having on health care reform?

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gwite- that 3:16 post is hilarious. good one.
Well, guys I got nothing to add to the conversation at this point. Oh, these August days. Maybe the Joes will get done this weekend?!?
got the Phils and Braves to watch.
Everyone be safe. Catch you on the flip side.

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Speaking of Aussies and Atlanta, who was the kid who used to play with Ga. Tech, the red headed lanky guy they had a few seasons back?

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BrittishAnger,

I think you’re talking about Luke Schensher.

I agree with AJ. Mo Evans is the most expendable, because he is most effective as backup SG, which is the role that Crawford will fill. Plus Evans is too small (6′5″) to be effective as a backup SF. And, JJ can provide some backup minutes at SF when he and Crawford are on the court together.

It bothers me that the Hawks only have 10 men signed so far, because it looks more and more like they will sign minimum wage guys (Siler, Hunter etc) to fill out the roster. And when Cleveland, Orlando and Boston have deep frontcourts, Siler and RandMo are not going to cut it.

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ESPN saying Hawks have signed Joe Smith!!!

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Joe Smith signed with the Hawks…you heard it here first!

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Ric Bucher ESPN news TV

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Hopefully Bucher is correct…good, quality professional. Then , let Siler-Morris battle….sign either a 3rd point guard (Hart) or a quality swing (Carney)…add a couple developmental types and you have a good roster…probably a 4 seed roster in the East!

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Running out for evening…niremetal…hopeully again story is correst..check later!

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Ok, just seen it on espn ticker that Hawks have signed Joe Smith. Guessing we’re gonna have to wait til Monday to get some real confirmation. OH SEKOU…

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Until I hear it from a source other than ESPN (which bats about .200 when it comes to Hawks transactions), I will assume it’s not true.

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From Sekou’s Twitter page: sekousmith01Spoke w/2 Hawks sources about Joe Smith: looks good, but nothing concrete yet. Final process begins Monday. Another Hawks’ score. Stay tuned
2 minutes ago from web

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This could be BIG, BIG, BIG. But Portland thought that they had Hedo all locked up, so I’ll wait before popping open the champagne. But I’ve got it chilling in the ice bucket.

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nire

Where is this SI article you mentioned

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Hopefully we can get Joe Signed.

……ALL These other NFL fans better lay off vick this season. We Falcon fans are the ONLY one with the right to boo his arse. He let us down. Do you know how hard it is to watch his highlight reel on ESPN??? I’m having vick withdrawel symptoms. I love Matt Ryan, I even Followed him when he was at BC, but it’s MV7 man…..It’ll pass as soon as they stop freaking showing his clips on ESPN…..

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….anyhoo, I havve a feeling were taking the NFC south this season. Gonzo+Ice+Turner+Norwood+White=Nasteh Offense

I’m just not so sure about our defense…

I don’t understand why rick wouldn’t sign Joe Smith to a two year deal? That way, we could trade him next offseason. Now he just gets to walk after this season…..ugh…..

……and Flips camp is talking to the Heat(per Hoopsworld). Mimai and Philly were the two teams I DIDN’T want him talking to. Talk about a nightmare. Those teams give us enough trouble as it is…

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The nuggets re-signed Anthony Carter… thats three PG’s now AND a rookie (Lawson) who needs time.

The Jazz re-signed Ronnie Price….to Go along with Deron Williams……the Rookie Eric Maynor still needs time

The Lakers have three PG’s

You KNOW where i’m going with this….

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Trade Jamal Crawford for Salim Stoudemire!

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Sekou is at Strokers making it rain….Dam Beat writers LOL
Carney would be a nice pick up -he actually has the size to guard most SF’s.

Jacksonville should have signed Vick …He’s like a faster more athletic version of Gerrard- O better arm too

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I MUS send me your email address: kwooden1@yahoo.com

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Sounds like we’re moving in the right direction with Joe Smith, I really think he’s making the right decision if he’s coming with us. Woody really likes vets and Josh Smith can have an actual live mentor to help him along. I’m a Maryland U. guy and remember seeing Joe Smith well before anyone knew who he was. He was definitely over-hyped when he came out, I never really believed his go-to moves would work in the NBA. But I’ve been happy to see him have a solid career in the NBA and realistically get the most out of his potential.

GO HAWKS!!!

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I would be happy if the Hawks signed Joe Smith. I would be ecstatic if they sign Gerald Green and Mark Blount (if available) along with Siler and West to roundout the bench….

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Please get this Joe Smith thing done already. Yeah I know ESPN says it’s a done deal, but Sekou tweeted less than five hours ago that they are still working on it. I tend to believe Sekou in these situations.

I’m happy for Vick that he got signed and that he can now work towards paying off his debts, but honestly I would have rather seen him sign with a team that would give him a chance to play quarterback full time. Apparently he turned down two other teams to sign with Philly — I’d like to know who those teams were. I am worried that although he may get to be “eased” into the NFL, he may also be “eased” away from being a full-time quarterback. Vick as a quarterback was a unique talent the likes of which the league has never seen. Vick as a wide receiver/punt returner/running back is just another fast guy who can’t break tackles, run routes, or catch passes — things he has never done before and probably can’t learn how to do at an NFL level at this point in his career. The last thing I want to see is Vick turned into a glorified Devin Hester. What an absolute waste of his cannon arm that would be.

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Co-sign Najeh!!!

Just waking up and getting ready to head to Olympic Stadium. Checking in to see if there was any real news on the Joe Smith signing not being reported by ESPWrong… Keep up the good work folks… I know it will be early there (3:45AM), but there’s going to be some good action on day one… Peace!!!

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If the Joe Smith rumor turns out to be true, the Hawks would have 11 guys under contract – Bibby, Teague, JJ, Crawford, Mo, Marvin, Josh Smith, Joe Smith, Horford, Zaza, and RandMo. I’ll also throw Siler on the roster for good measure (he seems the most likely of the mini-camp folks to be offered a contract). That’s 12.

I’d honestly say the biggest remaining need would be a combo forward who could step up and provide some mop-up minutes if Marvin and/or Josh get injured. That points to guys like Hunter or Korolev.

The other need arguably is for a 3rd point guard, since the Hawks have at least 3 guys under contract who can play and have played at every other position. I would prefer a PG that is pass-first, and also a veteran who could tutor Hart and help with some of the “pure PG” skills that Bibby lacks. Jason Hart actually fits that profile pretty well, and Bibby played with him in Sac, so presumably Sund will ask for Bibby’s take on him if there are indeed negotiations going on with him (and who knows – maybe it was Bibby who suggest Hart in the first place).

In any case, let’s hope that Joe Smith gets locked up. Assuming that happens, we can all sit back until training camp, because the Hawks finally can field a 10-deep squad.

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Day by day we are getting closer to the day we can trade Crawford for cash/trade for a center/pf that will free up cash. I say give him a chance and if he plays well he provide valuable trade bait.

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Throw in a Flip for the same money and the Hawks would be in tall growing conditions.

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Just like to say that if the Joe signing is true great job Sund…if it is a one deal than I hope it is because Sund is close to resigning Joe.

I’m some what confused about all the Crawford trade talks without seeing how well he messes with the team. He will be a great addition to this team.

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Exactly…please stop with this talk of trading Crawford. We no whave a 6th man who averaged 19 a game last year. That is instant offense and as much as I loved Flip, Crawford is an upgrade. Now our 10 man rotation is set…nice job Sund. We will see how the other 3 or 4 spots take shape. We should leave a spot open for in season moves…no need to have 15 guys under contract to start the season.

Question is: who will be 11-14. Morris, Siler, Hunter, West, Hart, Korolev. 4 of those 6.

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Falcons pre-seaon game at 4pm….

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I’ll admit the players they added are better than the super scrubs they had last year, but they are still pretenders.
Shaq = old and fat
Moon = crap
Parker = old
powe = decent but injured.

I like the way this guy thinks Hahahaha!!!!

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Ken,

I agree. I never said Hart would or should get minutes. I said we should add him as a “just-in-case” for depth (and as a PG tutor for Teague) and because there have already been a couple stories linking him to the Hawks. I don’t think whether we add him will affect the team’s success this year, except to the extent that he helps Teague and/or pushes Teague and Bibby in practice (a la Adonal Foyle in Orlando last year)

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I can’t understand why half of you guys aren’t coaching, you guys know it all. Wow! This ain’t playstation……

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