The gang’s all here!
With the starting five (plus a few more) back and under contract for the foreseeable future, the Hawks have at least given themselves a fighting chance to compete with the big boys (photo courtesy of my main man and former AJC photographer Pouya Dianat).
HAWKSVILLE - If continuity means anything in the NBA these days, the Hawks have done right by their own this summer.
Marvin Williams touched on it last week during a conversation we had the day before he signed his new contract, and again this afternoon in a teleconference with the media to discuss his new deal. A day after my initial talk with Williams, Al Horford and I discussed continuity briefly while he took a break from his work with the Basketball Without Borders program.
Dating back to last summer and extending all the way through training camp this year, the Hawks (if they can come to terms with captain and All-Star Joe Johnson on an extension) will have spent millions to keep their core in place for the foreseeable future.
“I think management is making the commitment to keep us together,” Williams said Tuesday. “And each year we’ve gotten better.”
Josh Smith’s $58 million deal was the first domino, albeit an offer sheet from Memphis to the restricted free agent power forward last summer that the Hawks matched before the ink was dry on the offer sheet. That swift move was followed up this summer with deals for Mike Bibby (3-years, $18 million), Zaza Pachulia (4-years, $19 million) and Williams (5-years, $37.5 million-base). Johnson’s 4-year extension, if signed, would be in the $64 million-range.
Full disclosure, math was never my strongest subject in school. But that’s a lot of cash spent, rightfully, on the heart, soul and guts of your team. Any team dreaming of winning big at the NBA level has to invest in its core or risk vanishing into the ether.
When Hawks center Al Horord talks,in English or Spanish, people tend to listen.
What the Hawks have done is neither groundbreaking nor extraordinary in the world of professional sports. But for a franchise mired in a malaise of mediocrity for the better part of a decade prior to the last 13 months, it’s a pretty impressive feat. ”Obviously, I think it’s pretty important to build on to what we’ve started,” Horford said during our phone conversation last week. And he would know, having played on successful teams every year of his college and professional career to date. “I’m glad Marv got his deal done, because we’re going to need all our guys back and ready to go this season.”
By no means does this excuse the Hawks from the responsibility of filling out the roster with quality players capable of supporting that core group. But it certainly helps that the core is in place right now – a nucleus with three wildly talented youngsters in Horford, Williams and Smith. That would be a heck of a core group by itself. So to have JJ, Bibby, Zaza, rookie Jeff Teague and even Jamal Crawford to add to the list makes the list that much more impressive. It’ll look even better with the addition of a name like Joe Smith, still in the works according to some well-placed sources that insist the Hawks won’t give up until someone pries Smith from their dead claws.
Will it win a championship in a league where the defending champion Los Angeles Lakers have stockpiled elite talent to go around Kobe Bryant and the Boston Celtics have assembled a star-studded army to battle the Lakers, Cleveland and Orlando for supremacy? No way. But the same can be said for solid young teams in places like Portland and Chicago as well. That’s just the reality of the situation.
What a rock-solid core does is give the Hawks a fighting chance to be relevant now and into the future. And despite cries for titles (things, mind you, that Hawks fans have never experienced) relevancy is the tangible goal that all teams must focus on before moving into championship mode.
Having witnessed my favorite team’s lone championship season of my lifetime (scroll down to the bottom, it’s there, I swear), I can sympathize with the desire to shed the middle ground for the higher ground. Having witnessed that championship season also made it painfully clear to me just how rare those occasions are, even when you have seemingly all the resources in the world at your disposal, that your squad actually cashes in on the big prize.
Would I trade 40 years of rooting for a a competitive or even upper-tier team for one title? Absolutely. But if I can get both, even if the titles only come once every 50 years, I’m not turning that down either. Back to my original point, and I apologize for swerving off course a bit but it is football season (and I smell a comeback season cooking in Ann Arbor), it all comes down to perspective for me.
Is it more important to be relevant and potentially a true player or not? I say stay relevant (given whatever constraints might be in place, and it’s no secret the Hawks have many) as long as you can. We’ve all seen the flip side and it’s ugly, real ugly.
Where the Hawks fit in the grand scheme of things depends on your perspective, as well. If being the fourth team in a three-team Eastern Conference race doesn’t strike you, that’s understandable. And they will have challenger for that fourth spot. But they certainly seems sure of themselves.
“I feel like people are obviously starting to respect our ball club,” Williams said during his teleconference. “People realize they are not going to come into Atlanta and get an easy win. I don’t think anybody in the league is doing that anymore. We’ve shown the last few years we can compete with anybody in the league. We certainly feel like we can compete with anybody in the league.”
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
488 comments Add your comment
Hoops
August 11th, 2009
9:20 pm
Real GM is reporting that the Hawks are showing interest in and have had preliminary talks with Jason Hart.
Some of you guys have been calling for a pass first backup PG, well here he is!
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
9:23 pm
Sam,
Uh…Jordan was assigned to cover Best. Harper had Reggie. Jordan only switched onto Reggie after Harper got caught behind a screen. Watch the clip and/or listen to Costas’s play-by-play.
My point was simply that Marvin was assigned to cover the inbounder because that was the most sensible assignment for a guy who is long, fundamentally sound, and not prone to taking big risks.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
9:38 pm
And as far as being assigned the big-time players, it depends on the matchup. I think Marvin and JJ have comparable talent as perimeter defenders, but JJ is a little quicker and Marvin is a little longer. When Marvin was healthy, Woody had him cover LeBron, Melo, and Pierce this year. JJ covered Vince and Wade.
Inbounds plays at the end of games are different situations, but the same principles apply – you do it generally based on matchups, but there’s the added twist of needing someone to cover the inbounder. The traditional NBA logic on that has always been “put someone who is long and smart on the inbounder so that they can anticipate and try to deflect the pass.”
The NBA is too fluid a league to say who is our best “defender” overall. Generally, there is post defense, perimeter defense, help defense, and transition defense. Horford is our best post defender (by far). Josh is our best help and transition defender. Marvin and JJ are our best perimeter defenders against swingmen. Acie and Speedy were our best perimeter defenders against PGs, a point that Sautee aptly made. Now, I don’t know who the hell takes that mantle (Teague? Bibby? Crawford? Not that it matters, because Woody never played Acie or Speedy anyway…). But there’s no single answer to who the “best defender” is overall. The game can’t be boiled down like that.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
9:45 pm
And PS – if I were forced to choose a single “best defender” on the team, it wouldn’t be Josh, Joe, or Marvin. It would be Horford. He plays excellent post D, great help D, great transition D, and actually plays solid perimeter D. Unlike Josh, Horford plays off a couple feet and never goes for the steal when he switches onto someone quicker than him, which allows him to stay in front for longer. Anyone remember the game against Boston where Horford switched onto Pierce off the inbound play and forced him into that tough fadeaway jumper (which Pierce somehow hit)? Pierce got on Sportscenter, but Horford played that perfectly.
ILL-logical
August 11th, 2009
9:48 pm
Samuel, I always thought about the Harper to Jordan relationship like Marques Johnson to Dr. J. You have to be old school to understand that. But both Harper and Marques were a half-a-hair below their more publicized contemporary. At least until injuries set in. Kind of like Donny Hathaway to Marvin Gaye.
Whoa!!! Great and vivid illustrations,especially the Donny and Marvin piece.
Sekou Smith
August 11th, 2009
10:00 pm
Man, I love this place. You cats are like my wife, you can turn anything into an argument.
I am partial to this picture, mostly because I think it looks cool and because my man Pouya shot it. But it does illustrate the similarities in size of the four guys behind Bibby. I’ve debated with some of everyone about who is tallest. There isn’t much difference in height between Josh, Al and Marvin. Joe is slightly shorter than all three, but he’s much thicker across his torso than any of them. Josh might be a hair taller than Al and Marvin, depending how all three are standing. But it doesn’t make much difference.
Steamboat is right, Chad Bumphis is a flash. Watched his highlights online last fall. And I know I’m in SEC country but I’m a Wolverine for life, this one and any others that might come my way.
As stated many times before, I share the concerns everyone has about the big man depth. And it would be nice to see a couple of veteran additions here soon.
Mystikal
August 11th, 2009
10:01 pm
Already thinking next summer try to make a trade for Washington’s Javale Mcgee or Marcin Gortat from Orlando. Know it is not likely (and just odd) to be trying to trade with teams in your division, but centers are scarce. Just my thoughts..
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
10:01 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf9h–ihrg8&NR=1
If smoove could shoot like this all the time, we’d be the best team in the leauge.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
10:03 pm
AJ,
Man, how can you put Donny Hathaway in the same BLOG as Marvin Gaye?
Much less the same sentence.
Maybe a better comparison would be Solomon Burke or Joe Tex to Otis Redding.
What’s that? oh this is a Hawks blog? My mistake.
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
10:03 pm
Niremetal, I would agree with Horford. My opinion is Marvin is not our best perimeter defender, can we agree on that? Only reason I say this is because somebody on here said that nonsense. I like our team, but we need a couple of big guys and I thought Marvin would be the piece we could have traded for a big but I just don’t think nobody else wanted him.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
10:04 pm
Sekou, Why argue when we can just be Fans!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAMchZk1MC0
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
10:05 pm
I think I may need to alter some of my Fav Five females hehehe….
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
10:08 pm
Sautee, don’t dis the applejack hat. Donny was a BAD, BAD man.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
10:10 pm
Sam,
BYC rules and the fact that no teams were playing with any real cap room made it virtually impossible to sign-and-trade Marvin, same as it made it impossible to sign-and-trade Josh and Josh last summer.
As far as who our best perimeter defender is…I don’t know. It depends on the matchup. Against Wade or Kobe, I want JJ. Against Melo or LeBron, I want Marvin. Against Devin Harris and Chris Paul, there’s no good option, but I’d probably want Jeff Teague. Basketball isn’t a simple game. There aren’t simple answers.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
10:10 pm
Sam from da swats,
$1M is all you’d pay for 14 and 6 from a 4th option?
Oops, there goes the old credibility. I know you’re down on Marvin, but if you can’t keep it real….. well let’s just say you are telling me to keep on scrollin’
And just when I was thinking you might have something worthwhile to say.
Oh well, c’est la vie
Doug
August 11th, 2009
10:13 pm
Rod from Sam or wherever: Are you the guy that played D-II basketball???? Did you learn nothing during that sojourn?? I was the poor sap that stated that Marvin is the Hawks best PERIMETER defender…because…well he is. Josh …as shown by your stats is the Hawks best help defender…i.e. off ball…very average guarding quick drivers man up. You must not like Marvin or whatever…I have no agenda…just watch and observe…JJ could be the best defender but absorbs so much heavy lifting at the other end there is not a whole lot of genuine passion for the other end! Watch a game this year…rather than boning up on the fantasy stats and see who actually guards…majority of the time an opponents best perimeter scorer (unless it is a 1).
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
10:13 pm
You’re right, but I’d rather want Josh on Lebron or Melo. If you notice, Melo never has big games against us because Josh plays him well. As long as Woody lets Teague do his thing, we’ll be ok.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
10:14 pm
Ariose, I will most definitely be placing a little something extra in the offering plate this Sunday. I MUST GIVE THANKS!
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
10:18 pm
Sautee,
Its just a little sarcasm. I just don’t see him being that good of a player. I believe he has reached his ceiling and that’s what he will give us, 15 points 6 rebounds.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
10:21 pm
Actually, Marvin was assigned to both Melo and LeBron in February. And he played very, very good defense against them both. From his rookie year until this year, I’d agree that I’d have rather had Josh on either of them. But Marvin stepped it up this year before he got hurt. But hey, I can live with someone disagreeing with me. Like Sautee said – just keep it real.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
10:24 pm
AJ,
Yeah Donny was great but Marvin…….well let’s just say that Marvin and Otis (with a goodly dose of JB) changed one little white boys’ life.
Me and Dan Penn and Spooner Oldham and a host of white boys who loved soul music. I was never the same even when the Beatles hit.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
10:25 pm
Gimme Sam Cooke.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
10:27 pm
Sam,
Thanks for admitting the hype.
If time tells a different ceiling will you come back and man up?
rusty
August 11th, 2009
10:31 pm
joe doesnt have the quickness or desire to be
a good defensive player. i sure would like to have bosh for jj, anyone but a hawk fan would agree. ask
mr.charles b.
J.J.M.
August 11th, 2009
10:52 pm
alot of people forgettin about mo evans
Sam from da Swats
August 11th, 2009
10:57 pm
Sautee,
I hope I have to because that would mean our team would be unstoppable.
Mystikal
August 11th, 2009
10:59 pm
HEY SEKOU,
So we have Siler coming to camp. We are hopeful that we can get Joe Smith locked up soon. Any other noons about how we’re looking to sure up the roster? We also need a back-up small forward. U know if they are looking at any training camp guys, maybe Hunter or Korolev?
Good thing football is abou to start up, cause it’s 3 months til basketball starts and can’t go on like this waiting for updates all the time. Go Hawks!!
Ken Strickland
August 11th, 2009
11:32 pm
ROD-since we play a continuously switching DEF, there’s no way you can single out one of our players and say he has or hasn’t defended any particular player. The only player that consistently ends up playing his man one on one is Horford. When the ball goes into the post there’s no switching.
You know, it’s amusing to see people making an issue of Marvin’s DEF ability, or the perceived lack their of, along with JJ, Smoove and Horford, but there hasn’t been a single mention of MBibby’s DEF shortcomings. Bottomline, whether Marvin mesures up to anyones DEF standards or not, his DEF definitely doesn’t hurt the team.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
11:33 pm
AJ, Amen to that!!!
J.J.M., Mo is solid….but not great…Just OK…but I like him….But i’d roll with Kleiza first lol.
Nire, I agree, but of course josh is is needed to protect the rim so he can’t guard them full-time. But Marvin has really gotten better. Hopefully, he’ll come back with a really nice handle. But it defenely depends on the matchups like you said.
Melvin
August 11th, 2009
11:49 pm
Ariose,
Richgirl is the 20 century En Vogue… wiggle, wiggle, wiggle….
Ariose
August 12th, 2009
12:32 am
Yesssir!!!!
Rufus1
August 12th, 2009
12:34 am
Marvin Haters.
How many players can average 14 and 6 without having a single play run for them…While having to guard teams best perimeter player. I bet they all make or will make atleast 7.5 mil a year.
Marvin is like a great tightend, who can catch and run block. All that he does may not show up in highlights or stats but is very important. Marvin does exactly what he is ask to do every night. If he is asked to rebound, he will grab 14. If he is asked to guard lebron or Pierce, he will. If he is ask to score, he will drop 25-30. His role changes every night depending on the opponent and the health of our players. He is our utility man..he is our Battier, But 6 years younger. You will never understand his value in 30 sec tv highlights.
Similar players who around 7.5 mil
Pietris orlando
Prince Detroit
Battier Houston
Ariza Houston…Ariza averaged 9pts a game
Butler Washington
HawksNeedaBig
August 12th, 2009
12:37 am
Can I ask a question of all you Woody lovers? Why does a coach with a team full of undersized guys with young legs insist on playing half-court Iso’s for most of the game? Why doesn’t he let them run?
All the best Josh (and Flip and Al) highlights are when the Hawks are pushing the pace. Yet too often we saw this: Bibby walks the ball up and hands it off to Joe, then disappears; Josh goes out to about the 3-point line and doesn’t move; Joe gets doubled, and someone is forced to toss up a desperation shot before the clock expires. If we were lucky, Joe found Bibby for a 3 or Al got a rebound.
The halfcourt game is not where it’s at with a young fast team, esp. one too small to match up w/ the bigger Celtics, Cavs, Magic, etc. You need to let these men RUN!! And Woody is not the man to do that.
The Truth
August 12th, 2009
1:38 am
Sekou
The next time you get into an argument about which player you mentioned in the above picture is the tallest, then here is the answer:
Johnson, Joe, height =79, wingspan =119.5, Pseudo-Reach=119.5
Smith, Josh, height =81, wingspan =84, Pseudo-Reach=123
Horford, Al, height =82, wingspan =84.75, Pseudo-Reach=124.375
Williams, Marvin, height =81, wingspan =87.5, Pseudo-Reach=124.75
AND THE WINNING IS MARVIN WILLIAMS!!!
A Tribe Called Quest
August 12th, 2009
1:56 am
WHY ARE WE LETTING EVERYONE GET BY? OBERTO?
WE WONT SIGN JOE SMITH UNTIL HE FINDS ANOTHER TEAM. NICE STRATEGY. WE HAVE 6 MILLION TO FREAKING SPEND. FREAKING GO INTO THE LUXURY TAX IF U MUST
A Tribe Called Quest
August 12th, 2009
1:58 am
These blogs are so anemic that Sekou talks about Randolph Morris being a factor.
Randolph Morris — the same player with that miserable work ethic
dmortone
August 12th, 2009
1:59 am
Glad the Leon Powe to Cleveland thing happened, now maybe Joe Smith will finally get on board and we can have about as good of a summer as we can reasonably expect.
Btw, does anyone know where I can find old Hawks games, either through torrents or purchase? Specifically, I want to see the game Marvin dominated when we played the Bobcats, but any Hawks games not currently on iTunes will be perfectly fine with me.
chemdawg
August 12th, 2009
2:00 am
The Truth: I would say another confounding variable in your statistical analysis is who they’re on the floor with at any given time (since only 1 person can get credit for the rebound). Ideally, you should compare wingspan vs average wingspan of their teammates and opposing team to determine what percentage of rebounds they grab. Your method punishes tall players who play with other tall players.
niremetal
August 12th, 2009
2:29 am
Tribe,
Calm down. The Hawks only need to sign one guy. If they get Joe Smith, we’re good for the summer. You always come here and post rants about the Hawks didn’t sign the most recent random big man to come off the market, usually going to a team that offers more minutes (Oberto will either start or be the first big man off the bench in Washington) and/or a better shot at a title (Powe in Cleveland). If the Hawks strike out on Smith, I’ll be upset. But we’re talking about the 10th man – second big man off the bench. As long as they get SOMEone to fill that hole, mission accomplished.
If Joe Smith goes elsewhere, I’ll gripe. But until then, there’s not point in looking to every big man that comes off the market.
blue hawk
August 12th, 2009
5:40 am
sorry guys but i think we will have just a seven guy rotation this year, according to mike woodson’s brain…
PG – Mike, Jamal, Joe
SG – Joe, Jamal, Marvin, Josh
SF – Marvin, Joe, Josh
PF – Josh, Al, Zaza, Marvin
C – Al, Zaza
everybody else will get acie law minutes. hahahaha
blue hawk
August 12th, 2009
5:49 am
HawksNeedaBig,
i second the motion.
don’t waste those young legs. don’t waste those run-the-floor bigmen. don’t waste the speedy guards and wingmen.
bring the running game on.
can we change the coach already?
can we get someone who actually has a brain and sees the obvious.
The Truth
August 12th, 2009
8:22 am
For all the celebration about the increased likelihood that Joe Smith will sign with the Hawks. Please, don’t dance in the streets just yet:
Roster not set: Signing Powe would bring the Cavs roster to 13 players and they are not done. Despite having six big men on the roster already, Powe’s injury and J.J. Hickson’s recovery from a back injury still may leave the team short.
So, according to a league source, the Cavs are still considering signing Joe Smith or perhaps Rob Kurz. The team is expected to sign second-round draft pick Danny Green, a wing player, before training camp as well.
Source: hoopshype.com
Sekou Smith
August 12th, 2009
8:43 am
Rob Kurz isn’t a bad player, by the way. Saw him last year and was surprised at how good he was, because I barely remembered him from his college days. Hawks need players like that to fill out the roster.
Rather have Flip than J. Hart, based mostly on his experience with this team. Not sure where Hart would fit into this mix other than insurance at a spot that already has an expensive policy at that position in J. Crawford (who can swing to the point if, knock on wood, something were to happen to both Bibby and Teague).
dap01
August 12th, 2009
8:48 am
SEKOU:
Marvin worked on his ball handling skills this summer. What are the others working on individually?
Daniel
August 12th, 2009
9:04 am
Nice article Sekou. Again, I feel like many of my fellow bloggers and fans have lost sight of how dramatic a change is occurring in Hawksville. This is honestly, the first off season in a long time where we have been run like a professional orginization. Making sound commitments to our core group and positioning this team to be a serious player for the next several years. These moves represent a seismic shift in the way the Hawks have been run. The resigning of Bibby and Za without a lot of hubbub and to favorable numbers is honestly staggering to this Hawks fan. Like every one else I want Joe Smith in here, but I honestly feel a lot better with the way Sund has been conducting business.
Daniel
August 12th, 2009
9:07 am
Also, I really don’t think Boston or Clevland are going to be as good as everyone seems to think. I have NO faith in the Shaq move, which could also disrupt chemistry. Boston’s addition of Sheed is nice, but KG’s injury is being extremely overlooked. A guy his age with his mileage does not bounce back easily from knee surgery and they have handcuffed their salaries for the next 3 years. Plus, Ray and Paul are another year older. I feel that we are closer to the top three than 5-8 in the standings.
vava74
August 12th, 2009
9:11 am
Rod from College Park,
Bowen and Battier were/are considered a couple of the best perimeter defenders in the league and their blocks and steal stats are very weak.
Steals are mostly accomplished by poaching the passing lanes, which does not mean that you are a good one on one defender.
Blocks are mostly accomplished on help defense (team defense/rotations) rather than on one on one situations.
Look at Iverson: many steals, no defense.
Look at Camby: many blocks, very little man to man defense (have you even seen him shut down other centers??).
Josh is similar in both categories to the above examples: although I do believe that he has the potential to be a very good defensive player, his actual man to man defense is suspect, to say the least.
Another important factor to determine a PF’s defensive hability is his defensive rebounding. Josh is a poor defensive rebounder, mostly due to lack of commitment and because he privileges looking for spectacular blocks rather than use his incredible leaping hability to snatch rebounds.
I’ll give you a very simple example: in the Hawks/Cavs series, Josh managed to make Varejão look like an offensively gifted player in at least a couple of games… on clear cut one on one situations he was repeatedly beaten. Just look at the games again or look for Varejão highlights from last season… you are bound to find him scoring against Josh.
If that does not evidenciate that he is not a good overall defensive player than we should not even lose our time trying to convince you.
Hawks Fan
August 12th, 2009
9:37 am
Why should the Hawks rush to give Joe Johnson a 4 year extension worth 64 million. He is a good player and probably the Hawks best player but as he has clashed with some of the younger players about their roles on the team and his lack of ability to be a Lebron James or Dewayne Wade the Hawks need not rush this decision. Mike Woodson has given Joe Johnson total control over the Hawks play so wouldn’t you think Joe Johnson is only going to sign an extension if he believes Mike Woodson will get one also. Mike Woodson can’t hide anymore under the shadows of the Hawks being young and inexperienced. The clash with alot of his players and no team identity should get noticed. Mike Woodson it is time to step up your game or get out of the way!
The Truth
August 12th, 2009
9:40 am
Sekou
I would say this about Rob Kurz, he might be an upgrade from Mo Evans at SF. So, if the Cavs pass on him, then maybe we should consider. There is more then one way to skin this cat.
macaroni tony
August 12th, 2009
9:51 am
Jason Hart is receiving interest from the Philadelphia 76ers, Atlanta Hawks, and Denver Nuggets. Hart’s agent, Bill Neff, told RealGM’s Alex Kennedy that each team has had preliminary talks regarding Hart. RealGM