A closer look
The Hawks' pursuit of veteran big man Joe Smith (left) won't end until he signs with them ... or someone else.
HAWKSVILLE - We’re going to start today’s journey with the answer to the most asked questions surrounding the Hawks these days.
Until you read, see or hear of veteran power forward Joe Smith signing elsewhere, the Hawks still have a shot at landing the free agent big man.
That’s truly the best (and only real) hope available on that front.
I certainly think it helps the Hawks’ cause that they’ve already completed negotiations and come terms with all of their in-house free agents, in case you missed it Marvin Williams was the latest late last week. Because now they can focus all of their attention on filling out the frontcourt rotation with the necessary extra bodies needed as they head into training camp.
As I detailed Sunday, the Hawks plan to take a closer look at several big men over the next few weeks to see who might fit best. It’s a wise move, what with the pickings being as slim as they are this late in the summer. Garret Siler and Jason Collins are surely large enough for the job but I’m not sure that either one of them soothes any fears about the Hawks’ lack of quality depth up front. Johan Petro, Stromile Swift and Loren Woods (another name I’ve heard is on the Hawks’ radar) don’t help me sleep any better either.
Maybe, as some of his staunch supporters have been suggesting to me repeatedly the past year, Randolph Morris deserves a shot to prove he’s the guy the Hawks need. He is under contract already. And he has shed weight better and faster than the dude from the Subway ads. One scout in attendance at Tim Grgurich’s recent camp in Las Vegas reported that he was impressed with Randmo’s quick feet and shooting touch – “I didnt’ think he could play until I watched him work in that environment,” my scout friend wrote in an email over the weekend. “He’s got a chance if he can get on the floor.”
Maybe this is the year, the final year of his two-year deal, that Morris shoves his way into Mike Woodson’s rotation … or maybe not. But with their options for a big man dwindling, I can’t see where it hurts to give Morris a chance. The Hawks have actually had some success with players like Morris, lightly-regarded players that turn into contributors (Mario West and Othello Hunter come to mind as recent undrafted rookies that made favorable impressions).
Hunter strikes me as another player capable of fitting into the mix for the Hawks come training camp. He’s probably a bit undersized, but since when has that ever stopped the Hawks from throwing a guy out thee (Al Horford and Josh Smith are always accused of the same crime of impersonating “true” big men). The reviews on his performance in the Hawks’ rookie/free-agent mini-camp last summer were surprisingly mixed. I thought he was fantastic. He definitely stood out to me. But several people who were also there suggested that they weren’t moved much by his showing. It’s always subjective.
ONE LAST THING, regarding another Joe (as in Johnson). I’ll admit to being perplexed at all the rancor over whether or not it’s prudent to explore contract extension talks with JJ’s camp. Why wouldn’t the Hawks want to lock up their best player for at least four more years (and that’s all the Hawks can offer since Johnson has a year remaining on his current deal, per league rules)?
A four-year deal in the $62-$64 million neighborhood (that’s an extension from what he makes now with the proper annual raises) makes plenty of sense to me. The question is how much sense does it make to JJ’s camp as they weigh the millions you can touch now with the potential millions that might (or might not) be available next summer, when he’d be an unrestricted free agent?
I know some of you are vehemently (I love that word) opposed to the idea of “4 More Years” with Joe in office. I just don’t understand why. We’re talking about a three-time All-Star that would still be in his NBA prime at the end of the deal. And if the fears of a potential lockout two years from now are realized, I’d much rather have the core of my team locked up going into the summer of 2011 as opposed to fishing around for players with so much uncertainty surrounding the league.
Just some thought to kick of the week.
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222 comments Add your comment
doc
August 10th, 2009
9:36 am
yeah the jj camp needs to look at how much of an ego they have or are they team players. he risks a lot if he is exposed further physically to the rest of the league if he falters again midseason or is again as inefficient a scorer as he was this last season as he listlessly performed at times. other star power guys but not real stars have fallen through the cracks either because of injury or ego and never came close to making the money they once did. occasionallly those types of guys lose homes or yachts.
it certainly makes sense for the hawks to bring jj back around his present salary. i just dont think it makes sense to back up the truck with money at his front door step. that is not the m o of the BASG so i dont really fear that ether. sign him up at 4 and 58. that keeps him as head dog salary wise and allows some flexibility in getting al on board when his time comes.
Kenbud
August 10th, 2009
9:38 am
Until Mike Woodson’s learns to TRUST his bench players, it’s not going to happen. His coaching proves that he does nothing but drive up the minutes for his starting 5 and possible 1 or 2 off the bench. I agree to that Randolph Morris deserves more minutes, especially is he’s worked to improve his body, footwork and game. But Woodson has proven stingy with minutes off the bench. That’s a fact.
And bring on Joe Smith!! I’d actually like Jason Collins for a body and 6 fouls a game. Don’t need for more than that and decent defense.
Hawk Str8Talk
August 10th, 2009
9:57 am
I think the concern isn’t about locking up Joe Johnson more than its the belief that spending that money on a true superstart without the mileage that Woodson is heaping upon Johnson that’s the concern. Or at least that’s my sense. If it jeopardizes signing Al or another player that significantly improves the talent base, then that’s the issue. This mix as constituted is still not primed for a deep playoff run and to lock up a mix that we’re not sure will get better isn’t a model for championship success. Until the front office shows that it knows what to do with pieces that might not fit for a playoff run, locking up JJ at that price might not be prudent. Having JJ as our second best player should be the goal..as our best player, not so much.
Hoops
August 10th, 2009
9:59 am
Good article Sekou! Woodson needs to use a 10 player rotation during the season. Keep these guys fresh. It’s a 82 game schedule before the playoffs begin! Sign Joe Johnson up @ 15M per and sign Joe Smith up and let’s get ready! Why not give Morris a shot? Let’s find out if he can help!
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
10:11 am
Thanks for the updates Sekou.
Kenbud- what have you seen out of Randolph Morris that suggests that he “deserves more minutes”? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. He is a marginal (at best) NBA bench warmer, whose only upsides are that a)he is already under contract b) that he lost weight (five years into his career) c) well, he is better than nothing. So clearly Mike Woodson, head coach, must play this “deserving” player more minutes, because that will make him better?
Stop it already!!!
Getting minutes comes with more production, talent and ability.
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
10:12 am
oh, Hoops if it were only that easy.
I am with you though.
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
10:16 am
Also, Kenbud- I don’t think that Sekou ever said that Morris “deserves” more minues.
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
10:18 am
he said that maybe, as some suggested, he deserves a chance at a roster spot.
RealSquawk
August 10th, 2009
10:28 am
JOe should sign simply because the hawks have fulfilled all of his wishes. And I like the size and cost of the contract.
I don’t think that Rick Sund would do anything to derail the signing of Al Horford.
Mike is back
August 10th, 2009
10:32 am
Sekou, I think it would be great to get JJ resigned…however, I would much prefer for Sund to focus all his attention on Bigs at this point. I think the reality for 2010 FAs is very uncertain I can’t imagine why a guy would want to pass up on the opportunity to lock down a guarantee contract knowing that the Cap is likely to be reduced for the next couple of years.
These guys looking for these huge contracts in 2010 will likely have to resign with their perspective teams. I think JJ camp is aware of that. As I stated previously if we can resign JJ now…then do it…other than that…focus on signing some beef.
People have scoff at the ideas of Stromile Swift because of his size…but save for maybe Johan Petro he is the only guy I would consider in that group…at lease he is a shot blocker.
**PS please say no to Jason Collins…he is soft as powder!!!!!!!!!
Alp
August 10th, 2009
10:38 am
Any word on Flip? Did he sign somewhere else? what is the scoop on him? He is a Fan Favourite!
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
11:00 am
From last blog:
Astro Joe ,
Excellent point about our offense being better during the regular season, then falling apart in the playoffs and going right back to Joe. The $64,000 question (if you’re playing “The Weakest link” or some other similar gameshow) is “why?”
In the face of adversity or simply tougher-than-normal conditions, people tend to “rise to the occasion” less, and are “reduced to their level of training” more. Of course, that usually leads to another round of our usual blame game around here, but that can’t be helped. : )
OH, and you know Woody is just not that short-winded when he’s asked a question. Unless he’s being interviewed by Jeff Schultz….
By the way, I think you should make “ATTACK THE RIM” your tag line. Snazzy. Hip. Dope. Or however it’s said these days. I like it.
Sam From the Swats ,
I agree that Josh gets a lot of flack, more than the guys drafted ahead of him. At the same time, Joe is right. It’s less about draft position by now, and more about showing what they are truly capable of. Marvin is no game changer. Josh is. That doesn’t mean Marvin’s no good. But it does mean that more is expected out of Josh, who is clearly capable at this point of having a much more dynamic effect on any given game, on any given night.
By the way, unless you’ve talked to every single GM and/or front office personnel of every team, you can’t possibly know that no teams were interested in Marvin. Just because it wasn’t reported doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Front office personnel are on the phone with each other all year long. If all the phone calls and conversations were leaked to various media outlets, the deluge of rumors would saturate and permeate everything. We wouldn’t even know who made the playoffs for trying to keep up with the rumors…..
Show me state
August 10th, 2009
11:02 am
Let’s go Hawks!!!!!
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
11:05 am
Mike is Back,
What on earth are you talking about, saying that Jason Collins is soft? Pretty much the only good thing about Jason Collins is his toughness. He is very physical on both ends – kinda like Jeff Foster or Zaza but without an offensive game. He sets picks better than almost any big man in the league, which alone is enough to make him worth a look because no Hawk outside Bibby usually even looks to set a screen. Maybe you’re thinking of Jarron, who is much less physical than his brother.
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
11:12 am
Daniel,
You’re right. Minutes come with production, talent, and ability. I think Morris has ability and talent on the offensive end. Always has. The defensive end is the issue for me. One more thing- how does one produce without getting the minutes to do so?
roan st
August 10th, 2009
11:19 am
Randmo loses weight huh? Last year of his deal and with his NBA future uncertain he finally tries to step it up? If he does have a good season and signs a long term deal he seems like the type that would lay down on us. I just don’t care for these contract year type players because when they get their guaranteed money they go back to being fat and lazy.
Sekou, what do you think about siler being given a chance of making the squad as a developmental type player? Woody doesn’t play the last couple guys at the end of the bench anyway so we might as well have a guy who has showed some potential on the squad instead of just a warm body.
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
11:21 am
Big Ray- by showing in practice and training camp, and when you do get minutes not making an absolutely a** of yourself. Let’s face it RandMo is horrible, always has been, always will be, this is not 2000 AAU ball. Time to move on like every other team in the NBA.
Mike is back
August 10th, 2009
11:23 am
Nire, give me a break…we are talking Jason Collins…geese…I guess that’s why he’s in the bottom feeder group. Maybe I missed something…but wasn’t he available when Indy signed Solo…what about Hollins…again I’ll pass.
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
11:25 am
By your reasoning Big Ray. I am actually the best basketball player in the NBA, but because no team, coach or GM would give me the chance to play 40 minutes a night you will never no it. Speedy Claxton is the best point guard in the NBA. Salim Stoudemire is the next Vinnie Johnson. They just keep getting held down by the “man” Bad is bad and the ONLY reason that Morris is even a topic is because he is already under contract and we DESPERATELY need bodies. If he were a free agent would you be asking for us to go get him and Woody to give him minutes to produce?
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
11:26 am
Niremetal,
I agree. Collins is a fairly tough cookie.
Daniel,
Another thought on Morris. I don’t know how much Woody values a big man who can score. I really don’t. Based on how much his offense involved “true big men” (I’m thinking Horford, not Josh), I’d say the value isn’t very high, though in my opinion, it should be higher and should be evidenced on the court. So for Morris to get more minutes, I think he’s going to need the following things to occur:
1)He has to prove in practice that he is dedicated to defending effectively. That means holding his ground in the paint, instead of getting pushed around easily. It also means he has to defend without getting into frequent and unnecessary foul trouble. That was John Edwards’ issue.
2) He has to show that he’s dedicated to getting rebounds. On BOTH ends of the court. Defensive rebounds generally equate to what big men are supposed to be doing in the first place. No special praise awarded for this. However, we all know the value of an offensive rebound.
3) He has to score whenever the opportunity presents itself. That’s not to say that he can’t ever miss a shot. But he needs to convert when a teammate passes to him because he’s open (and the teammate isn’t) and within his scoring range. It also means he needs to show that he can score in one-on-one situations. To do this, he has to know and be able to pick his spots on the floor, and be able to get to them consistently. Showing you can finish when you’re set up, and score on an opponent when defended one-on-one engenders confidence in your teammates, particularly the veteran teammates (translation: the guards, who are ALWAYS going to have the ball, particularly in Woody’s offense). When you gain their confidence, you gain Woody’s confidence. ‘Nuff said.
That is just one reason why certain guys just couldn’t get it going with this team. And while I lay some things at Woody’s feet, the fact is that there are things that EVERY team and EVERY coach should and do expect.
Guys like Solo could get rebounds and convert shots here and there. But when you’re open, you need to be converting EVERY TIME. When you don’t, guys want to pass you the ball less, ESPECIALLY if you’ve got a defender on you. And defenses aren’t stupid forever. If you show you can’t score, they’ll sag off you and stay with guys like JJ. If you fit that category, you better be able to make up for it on the other end. That’s one of the scant few reasons why Mario West has been able to stick to the roster for as long as he has. Can’t be relied upon on the offensive end, but he’s murder on the defensive end.
Morris has his work cut out for him. It starts in practice. After that….well, that’s on Woody. He decides who plays, who doesn’t, and for how long.
macaroni tony
August 10th, 2009
11:26 am
I think that Sund is going to force Woody to play RandMo. This may be his thought patterns.
O'Brien
August 10th, 2009
11:32 am
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isnt Jason Collins a C? Even if we sign him, we still need a backup PF.
Ray,
I agree. Coming out of timeouts and during crunchtimes, good teams have plays that they run. What do the Hawks do during crunch time? Give the ball to JJ and get out of the way. (It would help if JJ would not pound the ball for 18 seconds).
But the only plays Woody has is the lob to Josh (from Bibby), iso JJ, and the JJ/Bibby 2 man game. I hope Woody comes up with more plays this year.
Big Baby is rumored to be going back to Boston on a 2 year deal, and they already have KG, Perkins, and Rasheed. Orlando has Howard, Gortat, Bass and Ryan Anderson. Cavs have Shaq, Big Z and Varejao.
We just dont have the big bodies to compete with those guys, and since Woody/Bibby refuses to play uptempo, we will be outmuscled/outrebounded.
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
11:33 am
Daniel,
By WHAT reasoning? I asked a rhetorical question! Never once did I say that Morris deserved minutes, nor did I say we should go and get him. Damn man, read my posts. I know what the problems were with the other guys, I am anything BUT stupid. Claxton got no burn because his azz couldn’t stay healthy. Salim had issues with Woody, did not prove to be a reliable ball handler or scorer, and did not play effective defense. I didn’t say JACK about anybody being held down by “the man”, nor did I suggest, allude, or insinuate the idea. Read my 11:26 post.
Agree, disagree, whichever, but don’t put words in my mouth.
And the next post is really gonna draw some heat, from a bunch of people. But what the hell….I ain’t scared…..
Truth-Serum
August 10th, 2009
11:33 am
How about pursuing a real center instead of futility? How many power forward masquerading as centers do we need. We have the most non athletic,slowest turnover prone center in basketball in jon koncak…I mean ZAZA top this turnover Pachulia. I heard that his vertical leap is now at 3 inches.
How about getting a legitimate center and roll Hortford as back up to josh and the new center. Then wed be strong!
Mac
August 10th, 2009
11:35 am
Because JJ (relatively, anyway) disappears in the playoffs, Sekou, that’s why.
And all of a sudden Randolph Morris is going to become a player? Did Harry Potter cast a spell on him?
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
11:38 am
I like Joe Johnson a lot, but I believe his camp is more likely to be “thinking twice” about a 4 year extension than the Hawks front office is. I say go ahead and extend him. You lock up an all-star level player, and if it ain’t working, then you can trade him. However, before trading ANYBODY….I’d get rid of Woodson.
We can’t hope to win anything with the players we have if Woody doesn’t open things up with his frontcourt players. I know he wants the kind of guys who simply rebound, defend, and shut the hell up (with an occasional scooby snack thrown their way in the form of an alley oop or dump off pass), but that ain’t the kind he has, even though Horford seems willing to play that way for the most part.
Again, I’m talking about Horford. I don’t count Josh in this segment in spite of the fact that he’s our starting PF. I’m talking about the true body-banging enforcers (of which we only currently have two). Can’t deny that Josh gets his, whether by design or by simply taking it.
The job of the coach and his staff is to get the most out of the roster they’ve got. Woody doesn’t do that in all, or even most cases when it comes to the frontcourt. And as much as I like our suddenly more potent backcourt, I hate the idea of our frontcourt guys staying as uninvolved or misused in the offense as in years past….or worse.
Back to Joe. Sign him. Then play him fewer minutes (with Crawford around and a young Teague to develop, there’s really no excuse for it now), and quit relying on him for every play.
And to Joe: stop thinking every play begins and ends with you. If you’re going to think like that, you better be shooting better than 43%, and you better be BRINGIN’ IT like Kobe, Wade, Bron Bron and crew. Otherwise, be a damn teammate.
In the immortal words of Johnny Storm, “ FLAME ON !”
cdog
August 10th, 2009
11:43 am
STILL EVERYTHING IS NOT WOODSON FAULT AS EVERYONE USUALLY TRIES TO MAKE IT OUT TO BE, ITS RICK SUND FAILURE TO BRING IN NEEDED PLAYERS. WE WON’T COMPETE WITH CELTICS, CAVS, AND MAJIC AS LONG AS RICK SUND IS AROUND
Cedric
August 10th, 2009
11:44 am
Somebody has to have heard from Flip this summer. It would be crazy if he is not given a shot on somebody squad this year and I am hoping the Hawks give him a shot again. The rookie is not gonna give us a better shot this upcoming year than Flip would. I know they say it would stunt the young rooks growth or what not but this team cannot wait on somebody to develop or grow into a player as they are doing with RandMo but I think it is easier to let Flip take some of the heat off the youngster and give him time on the pine just like they did RandMo last year. RandMo will get his shot this year and it will be up to him to make the most out of it.
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
11:45 am
Truth Serum,
Where is this real center lurking, and how are we going to get him? Man, you’re like a cracked-out version of Wile E. Coyote with these ideas.
Truth-Serum
August 10th, 2009
11:52 am
LITTLE RAY, YOU ARENT VERY BRIGHT, SIR. DONT YOU KNOW HOW TO SCOUT? THERE IS A CENTER WHO PLAYS FOR A TEAM THAT HAS MORE BIG MEN THAN IT NEED AND WOULD BE WILLING TO PART WITH THIS CENTER WHO HAS DESTROYED HORFORD CONSISTANTLY IN HEAD TO HEAD AND CAN BOTH DEFEND THE POST AND SCORE. HE NATURALLY PLAYS WITH HIS BACK TO THE BASKET AND CAN RUN THE FLOOR. HIS ASKING PRICE IS REASONABLE AND AQUIRING HIM WOULD STATISFY YOR CHALLENGING WOODSON BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE TO PRODUCE TO THE NEXT LEVEL IF HE HAD THIS GUY, LITTLE RAY
Hms
August 10th, 2009
11:53 am
TRUTH SERUM
How the hell do you get Michael Phelps and Jerrod from Subway mixed up. They dont even look alike. Just STOP with all the racial stuff. We all know what you really are: A klansman who lives in his grandma’s basement and listens to Tupac and Biggie when you think nobody is around. Your greatest fear is not that somebody will find the prono mags you hide under the bed. Youre scared the other klan members will find the Lionel Richie poster you have on the inside of your closet door and all the black GI Joe dolls you have. Its okay though just keep your Confederate flag draped over it all and nobody will notice. Dont forget to take your Ne-Yo cd out and replace it with David Allan Coe before the next rally or you will be discovered.
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
11:57 am
Mike is back,
Jason’s rep is as a defensive goon with no offensive skills. The latter part of his rep is the reason he’s a “bottom-feeder.” It’s not a lack of toughness.
Ryan Hollins? Man, if you think HE is tough and Collins is not, it’s pretty clear that you never watched either of them play.
Ding.
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
11:59 am
Fool serum,
Now who might that be, and how do we acquire them? I’ll wait for an answer that makes sense, since you seem to know who this guy is and what the team who has him is willing to do. Is he under contract? Must we trade for him? Who do we trade? And how come you thought of this, but Sund has not?
By the way, before accusing somebody of not being bright, learn to spell “your”, “consistently”, “needs”, and “acquiring” correctly.
And your last sentence made about as much sense as a rat trying to use a rat trap as a cheese grater….
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
12:03 pm
Mike,
No disrespect, but I gotta go with Nire on this one. Jason Collins is definitely tougher than Ryan Hollins. I was in the ATL for the game against Dallas late last season. Hollins is long and lean. But tough he ain’t.
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
12:06 pm
Ray,
JJ shot better than 45% three straight years before defenses caught onto the fact that Woody ISOs him on every third play.
That’s the only flame I got for ya
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
12:19 pm
Ray- respect on the 11:26 post. One I never said that you said he deserved minutes that was for Kenbud.
I was responding to your assertion that the only way to produce/evaluate ability to produce was with minutes, which as you artfully stated is not true.
I will agree with all of your 11:26 post, except to say that I don’t think that Randolph Morris can do any of those things and I think he has proven it.
Ken Strickland
August 10th, 2009
12:23 pm
DANIEL-duing last yrs training camp and preseason, ALaw definitely showed what he was capable of by having by far the best camp and preseason of any Hawks player. Yet, it didn’t get him anything but continued frustration, as well as reduced mins and opportunities. And please don’t use that he was often injured crap. When he wasn’t injured, he suffered the same fate as the rest of those with DNP coaches decision next to their names
We had our best season in a decade last yr and Woodson relied primarily on an 8 man rotation, with Zaza, Flip and Evans as our primary players off the bench. Right now, we have already have our 8 man rotation in place with Zaza, Evans and Crawford, who’ll replace Flip. We’re getting sll up in the air about signing a secondary FA backup Big that may not get consistent double digit mins.
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
12:23 pm
Daniel,
I agree that he’s proven thus far that he can’t do those things. As Sekou said, maybe he can change that. And maybe not. Unless we trade him, he’s under contract and has the chance to go in the other direction. I for one do NOT want to go into the season with little more than the hope that he can be what we need off the bench. And I won’t hammer Woody for this one, because as you say….we’ve already seen what he can’t/won’t do.
Niremetal,
True. Very true.
Big Ray
August 10th, 2009
12:26 pm
Ken,
Even though I’m past the Acie Law situation, I still can’t get past his preseason performance last year. He was solid if not hands-down good. In real minutes no less, even though it was preseason. And he was playing against other teams’ starters. But for some reason or other, rare were the opportunities for serious minutes, even though he generally played well with such minutes.
Moving on, I can only hope that Teague shows better. Woody’s made it clear that he already likes Teague better. For what it’s worth, that can’t hurt….
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
12:31 pm
Ken Strickland- there is no way that if the Hawks sign Joe Smith that he will end up getting minutes like Solo. C’mon man, you can’t compare Acie Law to Joe Smith. How’s Acie doing in Golden State anyway? Also, how does your argument work with Acie’s first year where he got consistent minutes and didn’t improve. Also, wasn’t Horford, Marvin, and Josh all rookies who got tons of minutes and support from the coach. Or do they not count? Just Acie Law?
Gimme a break.
funkyketchup
August 10th, 2009
12:35 pm
Assuming we can sign Joe Smith and R Morris is servicable, let’s put Zaza at center and have Crawford and Marvin as super subs. Teague, Mo Evans, Joe Smith, and Morris can join the rotation. That will actually give you a 11-player rotation for the 82-game regular season. Signing Joe Smith or another veteran PF/C will be a key in case Morris does not work out. For the playoffs, play an 8 or 9 men rotation with the best players.
Mike is back
August 10th, 2009
12:51 pm
Okay, Nire and Big Ray…maybe not soft as
powder…I will relent…and I wasn’t implying that Hollins or Solo was
tougher or physical…just that other GMs passed him over for those guys…heck
now even Ben Wallace was signed over him. There is has to be a reason some many
teams are not interested in a guy that size with playoff experience.
I’m still trying to remember any dominate performance he
has had…I will agree that he’s a lot more physical than his brother…for
what that’s worth…based on Woody comments about remaining Bigs available do
you see him getting any burn???
He reminds me more of a Nazi Mohammed…then some
bruiser.
ILL-logical
August 10th, 2009
1:13 pm
“I know some of you are vehemently (I love that word) opposed to the idea of “4 More Years” with Joe in office. I just don’t understand why”
Because some of us believe that Joe is a larger part of the problem than he is of the solution.
As we move from the era of Solo to Silo, one thing is constant: Woodson and Joe run the show. Period. Joe wasn’t an All-Star until Woodson ” decided that it would be good for the team and Joe ..if he were an All-Star”.So iso Joe and 40+ minutes a game Joe was created. And that left everyone else as a team as well as individually behind. And now the law of diminishing returns is setting in and there doesn’t appear that Woodson has an effective plan B.
Joe, Bibby and Moe all owe a great deal of their current career status to Woodson; what is going to happen to them when he is gone?
Tyger
August 10th, 2009
1:16 pm
BIGS from within…what a novel idea?
I guess after the Celtics secured Hawks’ former #5 overall pick, Shelden Williams, for minimum wage, maybe these homers warrant a closer look. Shellhead isn’t Horford but he’s big, physical and knows how to play and he was our #5 overall pick if anyone forgot. I know he wasn’t Sund’s guy – he was the franchise’s guy – and the franchise looks bad when your in need of a reserve big and your #5 pick signs elsewhere for minimum wage.
Morris, Siler, Hunter are starting to grow on me. I’ve always liked Morris since Kentucky, especially the 33pt. thrashing of UNC lotto picks: Hansborough, Brandon Williams. And I cant sing loud and long enough about his elite AAU pedigree. Morris was once projected top 3.
Knowing Woody and his short leash, that backup PF doesnt weigh heavy into his plans, so you may as well give those minutes to Morris/Siler and Hunter.
The Hawks’ versatility, signature mark of BK, allows Horford, ZaZa, JSmoove, Marvin all to play some PF. So, in reality, the backup PF you seek is already on board. Add 7ft, 270 Randolph Morris – long with strong low post offense to that mix and you’re set.
And continue to mold Hunter/Siler for the future.
Hoops
August 10th, 2009
1:17 pm
The Hawks should sign Joe and Powe and mix them with Korolev and Siler. Then they would have a bench with Moe, Poe, Joe, Ko, & Silerd. They could also have some Tea to drink with their Cat Morris!.
O'Brien
August 10th, 2009
1:31 pm
Mike is Back,
I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Look how many teams passed on Flip last year (dude was on his way to Russia when we picked him up). He played great for us off the bench, but yet no team has offered him a deal. It’s all about fit.
What I’m saying is, just because other GM’s went in other directions doesnt mean Collins would not be a fit for what the Hawks need. To help our depth, we need a 7′ footer to come in, bang, play defense, get some rebounds, and commit some hard fouls if necessary. Especially playing against guys like Howard, Shaq, Gasol/Bynum, Perkins etc., we will need 7 footers to bang (and commit hard fouls).
Ray,
There are many bloggers who agree that Woody is not the guy to take the Hawks to the next level. His substitution patterns are too rigid, he lacks the ability to make in game adjustments (his idea of adjustments are play with more energy and intensity), all he knows is iso JJ and the JJ/Bibby 2 man game, and he refuses to play inside out/get our frontcourt involved.
That being said, his teams have been successful (improved record every year, 2 straight playoffs appearances, and home court). And based on what the Hawks have been used to over the last decade, Woody has done well. So I dont see him going anywhere (but I agree with you).
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
1:37 pm
Ill- that post is strange, I disagree, but very interesting…. I will leave it at that.
Tyger- Please no more!!!
Hoops- Brilliant! but shouldn’t it be Silo?
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
1:46 pm
I agree with OB, Collins is a decent 2nd/3rd center but I don’t see him playing alongside Zaza. Collins is likely the best player (after Joe Smith) but we would still need to go out and get a PF (or at least a tweener). The other question becomes would Sund keep RandMo AND sign Siler AND Collins? Doubtful. I think I prefer to go with Siler as the 3rd center.
Loren Woods? My goodness. Dude sucked in his prime… WTF do you think he could do now? TICK-TOCK…
Hoops
August 10th, 2009
1:48 pm
Daniel,
Yeah, Silo. I was trying to change Siler into salad.
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
1:54 pm
Ill, diminishing returns? 47 wins and a 2nd round playoff appearance? Geez, the team just was assigned 7 prime time games, where are these diminishing returns?
Sekou, I think the “Joe issue” is related to his playoff appearance. We’ve heard reports that he was hurt, but was there a specific injury that he was dealing with in the playoffs? Was he fatigued? Or did he just fail to step up? Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t have a complete understanding of his playoff performance.
Tallstacks
August 10th, 2009
2:19 pm
Sekou, have the Hawks shown any interest in Leon Powe? Seems like a pretty good fit to me, and I just read talks with the Cavs are pretty much dead.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
2:26 pm
I think Joe Smith is stalling because he has no intention to sign with the Hawks. He’s just stringing us along and waiting for Cleveland to up their offer. Kind of like how Lamar Odum flirted with the Heat this offseason but WE ALL KNEW he wouldn’t leave that good situation he had in LA.
In an article about a week ago, Joe Smith said that Atlanta is were he wants to be. Seems like a front for something bigger(cle) if you ask me…
Thats my conspiracy theory for the day lol.
tbhawksfan
August 10th, 2009
2:32 pm
How can you be so non-chalante about Woodson’s 8 man rotation. You condemn Woodson’s iso-Joe, you condemn the starters big minutes, you say that we should be a running team, yet Woodson stays with his 8 man rotation and fails to give talented players opportunities.
How about when we head into the playoffs so injured and tired that MIA pushes us to the limit and CLEV totally embarrasses us.
We all know Woodson’s 8 man rotation and the teams inability to bring in 10-11 solid nba players is a problem, yet some are willing to accept Woodson’s 8 man rotation.
When we know that we’re only talking a few million to go from a Morris to a Smith, from a Rio to a Carney, from a Zaza to a Zaza and a Bass.
Woodson is a very limited coach whocan’t sceme or adapt to his players. The Hawks are forced to compete with an 8 deep rotation. That’s sad.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
2:40 pm
Daaang, lol!!! HMS, you just made my day lol!!!!
Speaking of GI Joe, IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE MOVIE GO NOW! RIGHT NOW!
NOW! NOW! NOW! NOW! NOW!!!!
BEST MOVIE OF THE SUMMER BY FAR! THREE HOURS OF NON-STOP AWSOMNESS!!!
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
2:42 pm
tb- who are you talking to?
Sekou Smith
August 10th, 2009
2:42 pm
Haven’t heard Leon Powe’s name mentioned ’round these parts Tallstacks.
JJ was injured during the playoffs and throughout the later part of the second half of the regular season (good grief that sounds crazy). And keep in mind that once the playoffs arrive, all of that ISO Joe the Hawks use throughout the season comes back to haunt them in a two-week set with the same team.
I don’t think Joe Smith is stalling Ariose. It’s just the pace of negotiations for a 15-year vet. Sometimes it goes slow sometimes it goes quick (like Nice and Smooth said all those years ago. Ha).
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
2:43 pm
ariose who are you talking to?
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
2:44 pm
Sekou- sometimes I rhyme slow, sometimes I rhyme quick!!!
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
2:46 pm
DON’T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THESE LADIES, OR WHERE THEY CAME FROM, BUT THEY JUST GOT A NEW FAN, Hheheheheheee!!!
doc
August 10th, 2009
2:53 pm
make that two ariose
Mike is back
August 10th, 2009
2:55 pm
OB, yeah I agree the right fit is very important. However, we already have a Jason Collins in Zaza…but as someone stated previously…beggars can’t be picky…my bad…under that scenario maybe you bring in a Jason Collins. If Jason Collins is brought in and Siler mauls him in camp…who do you go with the Vet or the pup…I’ll take Siler!!!
With LBJ signaling he will opt for FA in 2010…that might help our cause in landing JS…that’s why I’m saying no to JWilliams
I could live with JS, RandMo and Siler going into camp…let them two battle it out…then wait to see what happens with guys like Kurt Thomas, Marcus Camby etc…Once teams are force to clear out space.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
2:58 pm
Sekou, LOL@ Nice&Smooth refrence. It must be the years Joe is asking for. That’s gotta be the hangup. Hey, if I was 33 i’d be asking for three years too.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
3:06 pm
Daniel, No one in particular lol.
Doc, Amen. I offically dub thee, co-captain of the fan club heehee
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
3:07 pm
Samuel, Manny & jhan, I think that if the Hawks sign Jason Collins, that one of you should draft him in the 1st round of the fantasy league. Or second round, your choice.
Sekou, thanks. So is everyone healthy (to your knowledge)? Al, Josh, Marvin & Joe?
Loren Woods? I’d rather go with Sund’s Trio of Terror (Sene, Swift or Petro).
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
3:09 pm
WTF!!! Von Wafer AND Linas Klezia to OLYMPIACOS???? SAY IT AIN’T SO!!!!
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=13554
BrittishAnger
August 10th, 2009
3:10 pm
Joe is a conundrum of a player; while he certainly holds the key to most of this franchises success since his trade from Phoenix, you can’t deny what the growth of our draft picks and the Bibby factor include in this as well. I have enjoyed watching Joe play at his best, but in the last couple of seasons his best play runs dry very quickly due to the reliance we have had on him to produce those mega numbers in the face of adversity and heavy pressure. Back end of last season, during his injury period, the guy had a hard time sustaining that sort of heat, but thankfully we had Bibby, Horford, and the others to help deter that. This season, it is the hope of everybody who follows this team that Jamal Crawford is going to mitigate that troublesome possibility because Joe’s minutes are going to be split about 60-40 with him though the bulk of the season, and 50-50 or less when the playoffs start looming overhead and we need Joe fresh for the big show. I think the major beef for Joe comes to how much the offense flows through him at times, and also how hesitant our team is at working the ball around at times because of those hang-ups. I’ve stated before we need some new offensive schemes if only to start forcing other teams to second guess double teaming him because of the openings that defense creates and to start taking advantage of that likelihood as well. I understand your wanting to keep the security blanket around, but the teams growth as a whole cannot hinge around one player alone; Tim Duncan has a great cast around him that creates when he can’t, Kobe has a great cast around him that creates when he can’t, every championship team has run variable offenses that involve not just the Captain of the team but everybody on the floor. A rigid tree will topple in the face of a storm, while a flexible one will go with the flow and adapt to the pressure applied; our teams growth this year will come from how much more the rest of the team can be involved each night, and where the best point of exploitation will come from, whether from Joe, Mike, Josh, or even Randolph….
As it relates to that big guy, good to see you giving him some much needed attention, and I certainly hope he can make a major contribution come the beginning of the season right through to the end, but the minutes he and any other big we sign from here on out will get is going to be limited short of not accomplishing that goal at all and ending up neck deep in Small forwards and Shooting Guards. Zaza will be the first big off the bench, has been and will continue to be until the starting line-up changes, then if we were to get him Joe Smith, and then maybe Randolph, maybe Siler if we snag him. I’ve joked a bit on how the guy averages better numbers in fouling than most anything else (though looking at his season stats I may be off about that), the minutes your twelfth men get are basically hack numbers, one or two minutes at a time with nothing much to do except hope for a board or two and a chance to create some game-slowing foul situations. I actually wouldn’t mind seeing him take some back-up minutes behind Josh Smith this season if the Joe Smith thing falls through, his size is bigger than most PF’s, but against those 3-2 sets or even a 2-3, him and Zaza might stand firm against the tide (heck, run a 2-3 with just Teague, Jamal/Mo, Randolph, Siler, and Zaza against a team with weak perimeter shooting, that would throw a wrench in somebody’s socket). He’s gonna have a lot on his plate this season, and he will have to make the most of the minutes he’s given and work like he’s proving himself to the Pope and Pres. Obama to impress Woody, but with what little we saw from the mini-camp videos, and what I hope to see of him during pre-season, I got faith and a fiver he’ll crack more minutes this season…
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
3:20 pm
“wiggle, wiggle, wiggle” lol
GeeMack
August 10th, 2009
3:24 pm
It doesn’t matter what the hawks do the rest of the summer. We have already punched our ticket to mediocrity. Our coach has already indicated that the goal for the upcoming season is to finish in the top 4 again. However this time if we win 1 game in the 2nd round, the improvement will be we didn’t get sweep. How is it that the Lakers can win 30 WC championship with 15 NBA crowns, and the Hawks can’t get to 1 Championship? Please, Please, Please, Atl Hawks be a serious contenders at least once in my lifetime.
doc
August 10th, 2009
3:39 pm
ariose, rofl. honored and considered knighted ….. AJ is going to be pizzed he didnt get here first. must be a bad day at work. heh heh
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
3:45 pm
doc, without even clicking on the link, I decided that I should wait until I’m home bfore checking it out. My “freaky-deaky” radar went off immediately. I can certainly wait another 2 hours (I think)
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
3:51 pm
Big Ray,
Thought you had gotten over that Fire Woody talk. Guess not. Have at it.
You guys keep condeming Woody for a short rotation. So I looked up the stats. Just one team, the Lakers, since they won it all. What do you know. Phil basically played the same rotation as Woody. Eight guys over 15 minutes per game(Kobe,Pau,Bynum,Odom,Fisher,Ariza,Farmar,Walton) and 2 more over 10 but under 15(Powell and Vujacic). (give or take a minute).
Woody played 8 guys(JJ,Josh,Bibby,Marvin,Flip,Al,Mo,ZaZa) all over 15 min per and Acie and Solo a little over 10. I really don’t get your argument.
Bottom line is, his 8 were better than our 8. Simple as that. Phil(in all his magic) couldn’t take our 8 and beat his 8, no matter how you slice it. Tell me im wrong and I’ll STFU!!!
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
3:51 pm
Summer Prediction for 09-10, Josh Smith will average 20.9 ppg and 10.3 rbd. And he will be on 3rd team All-NBA (can you really name 6 forwards better than him on offense and defense?).
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
3:55 pm
Samuel, Acie and Solo over ‘10′ is misleading because those stats do not include DNPCD. They both had moments where they would rack DNPCD weeks at a time. I don’t remember Solo being injured last season. And I definitely don’t remember him playing in 10 straight games, besides when Smooth was injured. And we’re not going to go into the Acie situation.
ray
August 10th, 2009
3:57 pm
If Woodson were smart, he would move JJ to the 3-spot, and put Crawford at starting 2-spot. If you’ve seen Crawford play the 1, you’ve probably been underwhelmed, yet it appears that the Hawks want to give him significant clock at that position. Bad move. Also, putting JJ at 3 would let you move Marv to the bench, where he belongs.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
3:57 pm
Samuel, another thing, Kobe, Odom, and Gasol would sit half of the third and fourth quarters many games. How many times did you see Joe sit for 8 straight game time minutes?
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
4:02 pm
LMAO@ AJ!!!
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
4:05 pm
I’m sure Powell and Vuj had some DNPs too. Kobe and Pau probably sit because the Lakers had bigger leads than the Hawks. Just guessing!!
cp
August 10th, 2009
4:07 pm
Jason Collins is terrible. We might as well let RandyMo play if we are considering that guy. I like nothing about his game.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
4:08 pm
Please,
I thought the AC3 argument had been oficially put to rest. It was Woody’s style that held him back. He’s now in the most uptempo oriented style there is on a lottery team and probably won’t crack the top 10.
Mike
August 10th, 2009
4:10 pm
Good points Ramon…I’m not sure about the 20 and 10 for Josh but about how Woody wore the starters down. The guy was fighting for his job…if we didn’t get off to a good start Woody would have been canned mid season. And that meant playing Joe 44 minutes a night when a lot of nights we still would have won if he played 35.
The hope is Jamal can take take a few of those minutes away and Teague can play 20 minutes a night…because we do not want Bibby playing more then 30 minutes a night.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
4:12 pm
Samuel, Powell and Vuj didn’t sit 20 games a piece like Solo and Acie did. And when healthy did Mbenga not get close to 9-10 minutes a game. In the 20 games he was there, did Brown not get 10 minutes a game? And true enough sometimes they had bigger leagues. But have you not seen Phil rest Kobe even when his team is down by 10-12 points? Have you ever seen Woody do that at the beginning of the 4th?
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
4:16 pm
Loren Woods?
Looks like Big Baby is back in the Celtics fold and Kleiza is joining Childress’ team in Greece.
And we’re asking for medical records for Raef LaFrentz, Chris Mihm and Sam Bowie.
Tony from Stone Mountain
August 10th, 2009
4:20 pm
Ariose, Thanks for the “wiggle, wiggle, wiggle” l watched it three times.
Stating the Obvious
August 10th, 2009
4:26 pm
Petro and Collins hold no interest for me, even though Collins is my boy. We don’t need a downgraded version of Jamaal Magloire. We need Joe Smith, Brian Skinner, or Sund signing and forcing Woody to play Othello Hunter.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
4:32 pm
Samuel, no one’s saying Acie should’ve played 25 min a game, but I’m not going to sit here and believe he couldn’t have contributed 15 min a game.
Mike, I’m just thinking by natural progression, and shooting 70% from the line, the 20 pts should come quite naturally for him. And the 10 rebounds? Well with Crawford on the squad now, and no PF backing him up, he’s going to have a lot of chances to get 10 rebounds from jump shots, lol.
As crazy as it sounds, I wish Smoove and Horford could have a few sessions with Rodman. I would love for them to gain some of his knowledge about knowing where the ball would bounce, and angles of the shot going up. Could you imagine Smoove and Horford being able to box out half as good as Rodman with their athletic ability? Nique was never a super rebounder, and Ty Hill had one good season with Cleveland, and collected checks with Mutombo in Philly. But these guys could benefit so much (and Marvin) from learning from some rebound masters. I know Smoove spent a summer with the Dream, but the Dream wasn’t even the best rebounder on his teams (Thorpe and Barkley).
doc
August 10th, 2009
4:33 pm
aj dont let the wife in until after you see it. it might be an unsafe zone for her though. you may have to put up some of those orange pilons detecting a danger zone enter at your own risk
Melvin
August 10th, 2009
4:35 pm
Ramon,
I hope you are right about Josh…
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
4:46 pm
Tony, No problem hehehe!!!
Doc, lol! Yeah AJ, the MRS. might get jealous and not fix you dinner heh!
UGA
August 10th, 2009
4:47 pm
Brian Skinner???
Mikki Moore???
We should at least have some interest in these guys I think.
O'Brien
August 10th, 2009
4:56 pm
If the Celtics are healthy, I think they will be the team to beat in the East (especially if Ray Allen is hitting shots). Perkins, KG, Rasheed, Big Baby (I’m not including Shelden)…thats a nice front court, and they shouldnt have the Chemistry issues Orlando has. And while Boston is a big 3/maybe big 4 (with Rondo), Cleveland is the big 1.
Samuel, if you look at the numbers (Hawks vs Lakers), on the surface, they are similar. And I agree that its easier for Phil to sit Kobe at key moments. However, some of it goes deeper than numbers.
If Woody would trust his other guys and run plays for them (especially Marvin and Josh), maybe Woody would not be so reliant on iso JJ, and maybe this would allow JJ to rest for the 4th Q and playoffs.
Minutes played per game last season:
Kobe: 36.1, LeBron 37.7, Wade: 38.6,, JJ: 39.5. Wade had a rookie coach and 2 rookies (including a rookie PG) who played significant minutes, and he still played less than JJ. And how many DNPCD’s did Hawks players get, even when the starters were clearly struggling.
Now If the Hawks win 50 games and make it to game 7 of the second round, then Woody will deserve his 2 or 3 yr contract extension. Either way, I just dont see Woody as the guy to take us to the next level (ECF or NBA finals).
Najeh Davenpoop
August 10th, 2009
5:15 pm
Even if Morris is better, his improvement should be seen as a luxury by the team, not an expectation. The Hawks can’t realistically be expected to contend if they are relying on him to play big minutes. If he grows into his own and becomes a contributor, great, but you have to start the season with someone more reliable ahead of him on the depth chart.
jhan
August 10th, 2009
5:43 pm
ILL – I think Bibby’s value was determined long before he came to Atlanta. Not sure what Woody has done for him except played him.
Mo Evans – what value does he really have & what has Woody done? He used to be a starter & now is a bench player. Doesn’t sound like Woody has enhanced his value in any way.
JJ – Who else was going to score when we first got JJ? Woody didn’t have any choice but to lean on JJ.
Has this team started to decline already? They just completed their 4th year in a row of elevated win totals. Their core is signed for the next 4 years and they are all under 28 – except Bibby.
Not sure where your coming from.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
5:47 pm
Najeh, I agree totally. Yet, I still wish the Hawks could trade Crawford for Camby, and re-sign Flip. In a perfect world, lol….
jhan
August 10th, 2009
5:48 pm
Wiggle Wiggle indeed!!
UGA
August 10th, 2009
5:58 pm
Mikki Moore:
I could see him as a back up PF. I remember when the Hawks played the Celtics how well he rebounded and how active he was. One game he had 10 boards against us and the next 6 boards. If no Joe Smith, he seems like a good replacement.
Ken Strickland
August 10th, 2009
6:23 pm
DANIEL-you really went out of your way to misrepresent what I said in my lsat post. Go back and reread it, then show me where I referenced Joe Smith or compared him to Joe Smith, either directly or indiretly. Also, rookies that are fortunate enough to become starters under Woodson will get plenty of mins, often too many mins. The young players that get shafted by him are the ones that end up on his bench.
Why ask me how ALaw is doing at Golden State when you know training camp hasn’t started yet?
NAJEH-what’s up my friend? Look, the only Big that’s gotten heavy mins off our bench is Zaza, and he only got around 19mins. So any #2 backup Big will be a luxury with our limited rotation. I don’t have a problem with RMorris becoming the #2 Big. I just hope he gets a consistent chance to produce. If he’s going to get 10MPG, like Solo,let it be consistent mins so that he can maintain his stamina, motivation, focus and consistent production.
I doh’t think there’s been any doubt about Morris’ ability, just his motivation, focus and work ethic. If he’s properly motivated and given consistent mins and opportunity, he could end up being what we’re looking for in a #2 backup Big. Even with his weight loss, he could compliment Zaza as a banger, and we can certainly use a Big with a postup gm, even off the bench.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
6:24 pm
I believe you guys are still laying too much of the blame on Woody. I don’t think Woody is telling Joe to hold the ball. It’s up to Joe to be the facilitator. I’ve seen the Lakers offense many times start with the ball in Kobe’s hands but Kobe usually makes a concerted effort to get others involved.
The coach doesn’t have to tell him to do that. Kobe learned that he can’t do it all by himself. JJ has to do that if we are to become a better team.
I have also seen the ball go in to Al and he is unable to make quality moves in the post. I don’t think anyone here will honestly dispute that Al needs to get better at that. There’s a big difference in Gasol and Odom post moves, and Al and Josh post moves. Come on.
And lastly, What coach out there who will guarantee that we can crack the Top 3 with the roster we have. If they can’t guarantee that, why change and risk going down.
Just sayin.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
6:32 pm
Ken,
I can tell you.
1. Ellis
2. jackson
3. Magette
4. Randolph
5. Biedrens
6. Turiaf
7. Curry
8. Morrow
9. Azeubuiki(or whatever his name is)
10. BWright
11.Deven George
He’ll likely be fighting it with the “Speedster” for the 12 spot, unless you see anybody 1-10 he can beat out.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
6:36 pm
Samuel, just yesterday evening I was stating what I feel is Joe’s fault. All I commented on in reference to your post was you stating that Phil and Woody have the same rotation system, when they really don’t. I said all yesterday afternoon how I feel Joe could make his job a lot easier.
Josh post moves isn’t that terrible. He’s actually one of the best post offensive players in the division. Yet somehow he manages to have his coach repeatedly tell him to camp out at the top of the key. Think for all the bad jumpers people say Smooth takes (and some of them aren’t any worse than the ones Flip would throw up) his percentage still ends up being higher than everyone except Horford’s. That must mean when he’s given the opportunity to work on the block, he’s successful. And THAT is Woody’s fault that its not used more.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
6:45 pm
How do you know Woody tells him to hang out at the 3pt line. Josh is kinda “hardheaded” you know. I agree that he has some good post moves. I just don’t think he likes it down there on offense. Not too sexy for this generation. U know what i’m say’n.
Coaches can’t play. And it’s not as simple as you think to sit a player. Especially when he’s making 11 million dollars a year and pretty much the only drawing card you got.
Just sayn!
Melvin
August 10th, 2009
6:49 pm
Maybe Sund should call Golden State to see if they would do a Mo Evans or some type of package for Brandan Wright then sign a backup SF (Green, Carney, Korolev,etc)…
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
7:07 pm
Yes, they pretty much do. The difference is no more than two or three minutes. That’s pretty close. By the way, wasn’t Acie hurt a lot last year? Didn’t he miss like a whole week during crunch time for a Funeral or something? I mean, come on.You DNP argument still doesn’t add up.
Let’s see what Solo is able to do over in Indy. So far, the “Woody whipping Boys” haven’t really supported anyones argument that they deserved more PT. We’ll see.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
7:11 pm
Samuel, if you know about basketball you know ‘ISO’ leaves an offense not able to have TWO players on the blocks, that’s why its called ISO. So if he’s running ISO, and Horford is on the right block. Smoove can’t go to the left block, because that is Joe’s working room. And bringing the teams PF to provide help defense, would be counterproductive to the ISO. That’s how I know Woody isn’t telling Smoove to be on the block. Not trying to be smart, but that play is fundamental basketball. And that is also why you rarely see Smoove in position for offensive rebounds, unless he’s coming from the weakside for a put back.
KevinA
August 10th, 2009
7:13 pm
O’Brien,
are many bloggers who agree that Woody is not the guy to take the Hawks to the next level. His substitution patterns are too rigid, he lacks the ability to make in game adjustments (his idea of adjustments are play with more energy and intensity), all he knows is iso JJ and the JJ/Bibby 2 man game, and he refuses to play inside out/get our frontcourt involved
Al/Josh/ZaZa/Marvin are a year older and now play a little better. Did Woody rely on JJ and Bibby to carry the load because the the kids were not good enough? With all the young players and Woody we will find out the adjusted direction. Most of us realize the advantage of an inside out game. Will Crawford/Bibby/JJ pass the ball enough? Will Marvin/Josh and Al come through enough. This is what this year is all about.
JJ/Crawford/Bibby are used to jacking up over 3,000 jumpers. Time to cut that to 2,000.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
7:22 pm
I will give Woody credit. Overall he’s done a great job. Its not many coaches (maybe 4-5) in the league who could’ve continued to improved every season in these circumstances. In my mind, Woody is 65-70% of a real good coach. Flip Saunders, Mike Dantoni, and others will never be able to have a defensive squad like Woody. But when you’re trying to improve, you do not look at the 65-70%. You remain thankful for that, but still concentrate on the 30-35% that is lacking. Not many times have I said fire Woody, (although I wouldn’t lose sleep). But everyone associated with this team from the owners to the Mario West, have to see how they can improve on areas. Speaking on improvements isn’t being negative, but hopeful. I see this roster (with more veteran front court bench help) being able to win the east honestly. I am one of the few who actually LIKES Horford at the 5, because I don’t see much difference in him and Mourning except for Mourning blocking ability.
KevinA
August 10th, 2009
7:23 pm
niremetal,Ray
Ya’ll have been jacking up the expectations of Crawford playing better than Flip did. There is a big difference between their past history. Flip was on his way out of the league and just wanted a chance. Crawford is used to jacking up many jumpers and missing a bad percentage of them as a starter.
If Crawford shoots his normal amount and both Bibby and JJ do the same and we starve the front court with attempts – does it become Woody’s fault? Flip shot 600-700 shots, Crawford is used to 1,100 shots.
If we agree the front court needs more shots – who gives them up? I see a chemestry problem potential. Do ypu?
O'Brien
August 10th, 2009
7:24 pm
KevinA,
I agree that this year will be interesting to watch. With Crawford on board, there is no reason for Woody to play JJ 40 minutes per game. And since Woody is a fan of Teague, he should get consistent minutes. Marvin can knock down the 3, so I hope we get him more shots. Give Josh the ball more (closer to the rim), and give Al some more touches.
Big Baby resigned for 2 years, $6 mil (It’s actually $5 mil, with weight incentives). I thought he would have gotten more money than that.
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
7:27 pm
<strongAriose & doc, I’m headed to MicroCenter to pick-up a 40-inch PC monitor. Meanwhile, Ariose, you are a scholar and a gentleman. Keep up the tremendous work! doc, I’ll be satisfied to be the guy marking the stage so they know where to stand. Oh boy, duct tape and those 4? Have Mercy!
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
7:29 pm
Got me all flustered, I forgot to do the bold thing. :LOL:
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
7:29 pm
We need a “WTF” smilie.
The Truth
August 10th, 2009
7:38 pm
This is brilliant, we make Morris the “MAN” as Sekou had suggested, he plays his Azz off and we lose him next year as a FA, just brilliant.
One idea I heard but won’t take credit for is to explore the possibility of playing Morris at PF since this is the position of need if we can’t sign Joe Smith. Morris got the kind of foot-work and offensive game that makes it possible, but he must improve his defense. In that case, it might be easier for him to match-up with a PF then a center where he seems overwhelmed at times. Then if Siler is good enough, we move him behind Zaza. Just a thought
CAUTION: This Big movement that’s going around the league has its weakness. It’s called “SMALL BALL”. Last year, we won many games going small to counter the size with quickness and it worked (so times). Last year, we went small with Bibby, Flip, JJ and a tweener frontline all on the court and had success. So, yes, I want some muscle too but will Woody play them correctly?
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
7:42 pm
I wonder if Denver will make a move on Joe Smith?
Seriously, Loren Woods?
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
7:49 pm
I understand. I just don’t really believe all those ISO plays are actually intended to be ISO. JJ just makes them into ISO by holding the dang ball.
Look, I have never said that Woody had the best offense in the world. Even I will agree that he needs to get better but overall Woody is proving to be a pretty dang good coach. According to his last year’s record, he was in the top 1/4 in the conference and the top 1/3 in the entire league.
That’s all that matters to me.
Sure, you guys can bitc_ and moan about us not competing for a title but I consider myself a “realist”. We just don’t have the roster to compete on that level. Not yet. If we keep improving each year, then maybe we can. I have no problem with a two or three year plan.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
7:52 pm
KevinA, That’s a possibility that I hope doesn’t become reality, for sure. Hopefully Craford will stbilize the bench offense even more consistanty than Flip did.
I also hope that guys like RandMo and Siler can earn Woodys trust even if we do pick up Joe Smith. I’ll tell you what though. If Doc Rivers makes Shelden Willams look like an all-NBA canidate up in Boston, it’s going to raise some questions about guys like Woody, Reggie Theus, and Kevin McHale. Woodson could be exposed to the natioal media for being too narow minded and not working with his youth enough…..not that I would be opposed to that lol. I think such accustions would help him grow into a better coach. I have noticed his growth since he first came to Atlanta. Especially his defensive Philosophy. Hopefully he continues to grow.
Ramon, Our “ISO-Joe” would be effective, even tolerable, if there was some other movement going on at the same time. Having all of our guys just standing there, staring at Joe only hurts us. It makes the defenses job MUCH easier because they can just stand there and rest on D, while not really paying attention to their man. Why? Because he’s not doing anything! He’s looking at Joe too. It’s really sad to watch on a daily baisis(I’m sure you know this already lol). I hope Rick Sund got the hint and is bringing in a offensive-guru for an assitant coach.
Jhan, WELCOME TO THE CLUB!!!!
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
7:52 pm
Anakin, I just thought of something.
Sund has a terrible history with big men, but is good at selecting point guards. And BK was pretty decent at wings and forwards, but terrible at point. Should they have partnered to be GMs of the team? Some good things could have been done then, lol.
Loren Woods, lol….
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
7:57 pm
AJ, Thanks for the compliment! ROFL!!!! I know right!!! Forget the duct Tape. IN THE WORDS OF ZELL MILLER “WE NEED SOME GUERILLA GLUE DAMMIT!!” Theres not enough mercy in the world!! Hehehehe!!
We need a “Lord Jusus I have seen the light!” Smiley LOL!!!
vava74
August 10th, 2009
7:59 pm
Why doesn’t anyone even consider the possibility that Woody is also improving?
Some coaches improve as some players improve… Woody has managed to get us twice in the playoffs and we have improved significantly every year. Give him a vote of confidence and he may surprise us with improved offensive schemes.
We faced tremendous hardships for a young team, losing J-Smoove, then Al, then JJ, then Marvin, then Al again and JJ again.
Listen to Sekou: JJ was playing hurt during the second half of season and in the playoffs. Don’t measure his quality out of one poor playoff run in which he was not in good condition.
Against Miami and then the Cavs we did not have Marvin and then lost Al (he played but was woobled).
We were overwhelmed and showed a bit of lack of heart against the Cavs but everyone (including here) were saying that we would be swept and with some many players out or hurt, it was too much…
vava74
August 10th, 2009
8:00 pm
wobbled
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
8:03 pm
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
8:03 pm
Somebody here mentioned the Collins twins. Yuk! If all we want is a “Goon”, how bad a job can Siler do at 7′300+. Hell, let’s bring back Esty. Now there’s a real “Euro Thug”4YOas_.
Hey, whatever happened to “Baby Shaq” from Greece?
Hey Joe:
http://hoopshype.com/players/jackie_butler.htm
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
8:04 pm
Lol@ Vava!
darrell starks
August 10th, 2009
8:06 pm
Sekou like i sayed morris can get the job done i have seen him play since high school and every since he went to kentucky for some reason he has lost confidence in his game but under the right coach his game will improve.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mystikal
August 10th, 2009
8:07 pm
RANDMO + CONTRACT YEAR = WEIGHT LOSS
Don’t believe the hype!!
darrell starks
August 10th, 2009
8:08 pm
Sund will pressure wooody to play morris but we all no woody is a confidence killer.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
8:12 pm
Darn, Samuel, how are you going to send a link of a big ugly after the superior talent Ariose shared earlier? Man, Butler just cracked my new PC monitor.
Seriously, how far can Jackie Butler be if we’re looking at cats like Courtney Sims and Loren Woods?
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
8:16 pm
OOPS!!! I meant:
Hehehehe!!1
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
8:16 pm
Hey Starks,
He lost confidence because he was no longer bigger than everyone else and has to do a little work. Ever thought about that.
doc
August 10th, 2009
8:20 pm
whew i dont have any idea what you are talking about ariose. heh heh (got mine)
aj, strong leather there, isnt it? havent seen that style in a while.
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
8:21 pm
KevinA,
Come on, man:
If Crawford shoots his normal amount and both Bibby and JJ do the same and we starve the front court with attempts – does it become Woody’s fault?
I will eat my shoes if ANY of those three guys shoot as many field goals as they did last year. My guess is that the three of them will combine to shoot approximately the same number of total shots as JJ, Bibby, and Flip did last year. Last year, those three averaged 40.6 FG attempts per game. My guess is that this year, JJ/Bibby/Crawford will combine to average 42 FG attempts per game, and that Crawford and JJ’s FG% both go up. JJ and Bibby are both players who have shown a willingness to play a less featured role in the offense in the past – Bibby’s FG attempts last year were way down from when he was “The Man” in Sac town 3-4 years ago. JJ was the 4th option in Phoenix, but has repeatedly shown a willingness to cut his FG attempts when other teammates step it up. See, for example, the last half of this past season, when JJ cut his FG attempts, increased his assists, and shot a higher percentage while he was gimpy. Crawford has always been a chucker, something that I expressed concern about when we traded for him. But he has repeatedly said that he’s happy with being a role player here who will pass and facilitate for his teammates.
My guess is also that with Teague and Crawford in the fold, we push the pace and have a couple more possessions per game, so that 42 FGAs will be a wash.
None of these guys are selfish players. Anyone who says otherwise about JJ and Bibby hasn’t paid attention to their careers, and anyone who says otherwise about Crawford has to at least admit that Crawford has always been the one-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind. He has never even had someone of Marvin’s offensive ability to play alongside for a full season, much less someone like JJ. He’s talking the talk now, and I think that he’ll walk the walk when the time comes.
You also say:
Flip was on his way out of the league and just wanted a chance. Crawford is used to jacking up many jumpers and missing a bad percentage of them as a starter.
Funny. You make it sound like Crawford had something to prove and Crawford doesn’t. But Crawford himself said otherwise – he said he wants to prove that he can be a key piece on a winning team, which is something he’s never had a real chance to do considering the scrubs he’s always played with.
Flip was always and pretty much only a chucker when he was on the floor last year. Crawford will probably be the same this year. Over the course of their careers, each has averaged approximately the same number of FGAs per 36 minutes, with Crawford averaging a smidge more (14.1 for Flip and 14.6 for Crawford). Crawford has actually been slightly more efficient than Flip as a scorer (Crawford’s career EFG% is .469 and his TS% is .517, compared to .453 and .494 for Flip) and averaged both more assists and fewer turnovers per 36 minutes and per 100 possessions.
In other words, Crawford has facilitated more for teammates than Flip and has been a more efficient scorer than Flip when on the floor. So if Flip didn’t create a chemistry problem (and he obviously did not), I don’t see why Crawford would.
And of course, the most important point is that we have been DESPERATE for someone to take pressure off JJ in terms of 1) minutes, 2) scoring load, and 3) defensive pressure for three full seasons now. Crawford does that. Flip did not. That’s because Crawford scares defenders. Flip does not. I had a friend who was a Heat fan who told me after Game 2 that he hoped Flip would keep on shooting for the rest of the series, because there was a reason the Heat weren’t bothering to shift help defenders on him. I have the feeling he wouldn’t be so flippant about Crawford.
Given the way Woodson runs his offense, I honestly think that getting a guy like Crawford – someone who can take pressure off JJ in those 3 areas I listed above – was one of our top 3 priorities going into the offseason, along with re-signing Marvin/Zaza/Bibby and adding frontcourt depth. I don’t think it’s useful to say which was MORE important, because we needed to do all three in order to have ANY chance of running with the Big Three in the East. Getting Crawford accomplished one of those three things.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
8:22 pm
Truth, I agree. Our “Small ball” won us quite a few games in crunch-time last season. Now you add Crawford to theat mix and it really gets interesting. I’m with you, I think PF is the ideal position for RandMo.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
8:23 pm
http://dimemag.com/2008/06/the-return-of-shawn-kemp/
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
8:25 pm
Doc, lol. Looks like I was Still just as flusterd as AJ was hehehe!!!
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
8:25 pm
Samuel,
Estaban Batista was Uruguayan, not European. Just sayin.
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
8:28 pm
Ariose,
Our “ISO-Joe” would be effective, even tolerable, if there was some other movement going on at the same time. Having all of our guys just standing there, staring at Joe only hurts us. It makes the defenses job MUCH easier because they can just stand there and rest on D, while not really paying attention to their man. Why? Because he’s not doing anything! He’s looking at Joe too. It’s really sad to watch on a daily baisis(I’m sure you know this already lol). I hope Rick Sund got the hint and is bringing in a offensive-guru for an assitant coach.
Preach it, brother!
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
8:42 pm
Nire, YOU Preach it!! Can I get a witness! Can I get an Amen?!!!
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
8:53 pm
Nire, My only gripe with Crawford was his commitment to defense in the last couple of seasons. I don’t think he’ll have a problem defending in this system though. His perfomance the past couple of seasons had more to do with who his coaches were and the overall talent of the teams he was on, than it had to do with his ability to defend. On the Flip-Side, Murray has played for some really good defensive squads/winners over the last couple of years….At least, I hope thats the case, lol.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
8:56 pm
“Darn, Samuel, how are you going to send a link of a big ugly after the superior talent Ariose shared earlier? Man, Butler just cracked my new PC monitor.”
Hehehehe!! Ain’t that the truth!
~Sir Links A Lot~
cp
August 10th, 2009
8:59 pm
From reading everything concerning the Warriors, they are already looking at Law as an expiring contract. They have had a few articles talking about how they are already disappointed with him..
Crawford is to KevinA is like what Marvin is to Sam. No matter how much you try to make a point about said player and even use the stats to back up your claim, neither guy wants to hear it. Nire great post but a few others have posted the numbers showing that Crawford is the better player but Kev is not having it.
wink
August 10th, 2009
9:08 pm
Samuel
Give me Phil & our 8 vs Woody & the Laker 8. I will take my chance with Phil. Because Phil will be a able to devise a defense over 48 minutes, that would put our 8 in position to defeat Iso Kobe in a playoff series.
Michael Jordan did not win championships until he learned to trust his teammates. Same with teams like the Spurs & Pistons. They trusted their teammates. Kobe did not win another championship until he learned this year to trust his teammates. It that is the formula for success then Joe & Woody will have to learn to trust the rest of the team. We spent this whole summer concerned about losing our free agents. They are all signed for a minimum of 2 years +, reason Joe can’t play alone. They are now back in the fold, we must involve them in the game to be successful. Iso Joe has to be expanded to include other sets.
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
9:13 pm
Ariose,
Amen! But I’m reserving my hallelujah for if/when we sign Joe Smith.
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
9:14 pm
Wink,
That was one of the best posts I’ve seen around here in a good while. Co-sign.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
9:26 pm
Nire, lol. When/if he signs i’ll see your “hallelujah” and raise you with a “Glory!” hehehe.
Wink, I agree with Nire, exellent post. Joe needs to take it upon himself to realize that his talented frontcourt needs more touches. If for no other reason than to divert attention away from himself until he’s REALLY needed (crunch-time). Kobe even said he let’s his teammates get hot and that he defers to them early and often, so that the defense can’t focus all of their attention on him when he’s ready to take over. Now three years ago, Kobe wouldn’t have been able to say that. Geting Pau and having trust in his teammates is what turned his situation around in LA.
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
9:30 pm
I wonder how many “trust your teammates” comments were made during the playoffs. Seems most of what I read was “when will Joe takeover”. Oh well.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
9:42 pm
AJ, But if you remeber, he was TRYING to take over lol. The ISO-Joe wasn’t working. That’s all we had lol. Especially with Marvin and Horford Injured like that. And Flip isn’t a game-changer. When everyone had a good night in the playoffs, he was usually right there with it. When everyone was off in the playoffs, he was off too. Hopefully Crawford can be that 2nd undeniable force we need. When Joe is a No-Show and we need somone to pull us from the darkeness, hopefully craford can step up and provide for us.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
9:45 pm
AJ, But if you remeber, he was TRYING to take over lol. The ISO-Joe wasn’ working. That’s all we had lol. Especially with MArvin and Horford Injured like that. And Flip isn’t a game-changer. When everyone had a good night in the playoffs, he was usually right there with it. When everyone was off in the playoffs, he was off too. Hopefully Crawford can be that 2nd undeniable force we need. When Joe is a No-Show and we need somone to pull us from the darkeness, hopefully craford can step up and provide for us.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
9:46 pm
Ooops, lol
Sautee
August 10th, 2009
9:50 pm
Samuel,
If only JJ had the offensive imagination that Woody THINKS he has.
Woody is still the coach. Do you think that JJ holds on to the ball while Woody is telling him to pass? No, Woody is saying “make something happen” and Joe, while yes, an all-star, lacks the imagination necessary to dominate.
Or to effectively create for his teammates on a consistent basis. Way too many of his assists are made jumpshots bailing him out at the end of the shot clock.
Which is exactly why the double-teams are effective.
I’ll say it again. If Joe takes as many shots as last year we WILL have major chemistry problems.
We MUST let the frontcourt grow up if we intend, even with a two or three year plan, to actually compete for a ring.
And that’s on Joe more than anyone because he has the ball the most.
Drewscrilla
August 10th, 2009
9:57 pm
sign JJto a 3 year ext
niremetal
August 10th, 2009
10:02 pm
Sautee,
Again, I don’t see how you can say any of that given the complete, total, and utter lack of off-ball movement in the Hawks’ “system.” And THAT is not on JJ. It’s on Woody.
I sent this email to Ray a few weeks back (h/t to Ariose on the link):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMnY4xJTzJk
It’s a mix of JJ highlights from this past year…
On every single damned “ISO” play on that mix, NO ONE else was actually open. I think people see JJ dribbling and getting doubled and they assume “well, if two people are guarding him, someone else must be open.” But of course, that isn’t true. Because if you’re doubled and everyone else is 15 feet away, you only have to have 2-3 defenders covering the passing lanes. And even if there is an open passing lane, by the time a 15-foot pass reaches your teammate, the defense will have enough time to get back to their original assignments.
Take a look at the play at 2:55 in the video. ISO JJ on the right block. Everyone else is on the perimeter on the opposite side of the court. For all intents and purposes, no one was moving but JJ. When the defense collapses, they do so in a way that makes sure that there are no easy passing lanes for JJ to pass through. In that case, there wasn’t even a open pass that JJ could make that wouldn’t have created a huge risk of a turnover. The only person decently close to the basket was Horford, and he was the “least open” player in terms of both receiving a pass and taking the shot.
Take a look at the last play, starting at 3:53. This time, JJ takes the ball at the top, and Bibby directs traffic so that the other players go on the far right side of the court. Bibby then sets a screen (and a damned good one) for JJ to go left. Miller switches quickly to cut him off from going left. Young recovers after a second and goes back to JJ. Miller peels off to cover Bibby again, and then doubles JJ right before he takes the shot. The shot JJ took there was awful – he was 30 feet from the basket. But look at what everyone else is doing. Nothing. They are doing NOTHING. Flip, Josh, and Horford are all standing around 5-15 feet away from JJ (I’ll get to Bibby in a second). No one moved when JJ was forced to go right instead of left. No one got open. Sure, JJ could have made a pass to Josh – the passing lane was open. But there was a defender 2 feet from Josh, in between Josh and the basket. In other words, Josh wasn’t open. NO ONE got open during the entire 10 second period where JJ was dribbling around. No one put themselves in a position to have a better look at the basket than JJ. The only one moving was Bibby, and his movement consisted of setting two screens for JJ. So again…what was JJ supposed to do? None of his teammates got “open” in the sense of having an open look at the basket. His choice ultimately came down to launching a 30 footer with two players within 3 feet of him (although neither was right in his face) or making a pass to Josh and hope that Josh could hit a desperation 3 from 25 feet away with a hand in his face. Given those two choices, I’d prefer to have JJ take the shot.
It’s a testament to JJ’s ability that he scores at ALL on those ISO plays. I admit that LeBron and Kobe might be able to make more out of those plays. But to criticize JJ for not making more out of them is absurd. Woody should realize that JJ is not Kobe and make sure that JJ’s teammates are in a position to help him out. If they aren’t, that is NOT on JJ.
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
10:35 pm
Man, it must be good to be anyone on this team other than Joe and Woody. If Joe doesn’t pass, it’s because either he isn’t trustig his teammates or because Woody isn’t forcuing guys to move. Yet, there was this guy, had a huge afro, that use to move and find seams in the defense near the baseline. Guy shot like 55%+ from the field one season despite not owning anything close to a jumper. Maybe he was just being disobedient. Or maybe Woody decided that having an efficient player to roam the defense and seek openings was counter-productive. Who knows? But clearly, it is either the fault of Woody or Joe. I guess that’s why Joe averaged 1.5 assists during the season and why he was the lone player to score in double figures. Man, I hope we win more than 13 games next season.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
11:35 pm
Nire, exellent post. Nothin more needs to be added to that. The proof is on the footage.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
12:16 am
Jamario Moon, Anthony Parker, Trevor Ariza, Antonio Daniels, Matt Barnes, Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, and now Linas Klezia
We couldn’t land ONE backup SF. NOT ONE. How are we going to defend Guys like LeBron if Marvin’s back starts acting up again? I WANT Korolev, 6′9 220 Good wingspan and he can shoot. He was also a former Lottery pick who came over too soon. I think the guy has a huge upside that can be developed behind the scenes while he sits behiend Mo and Marvin(until we need him).BTW, I’m really bummed about Klezia, He would have been great for us.
Big Ray
August 11th, 2009
12:28 am
Samuel,
I am. Just stoking an old fire.
Yep, not feeling too good about Acie’s chances with Nelson’s crew. We’ll see though. He’s not a Hawk anymore, and I’m looking forward to seeing what Teague can do. Moving on….
Big Ray
August 11th, 2009
12:38 am
Heh. “When will JJ take over?”
During the playoffs what you were really hearing was “when will JJ show up”…..but I guess that’s what happens when you send a one-legged man into an ass-kicking contest. But hey, at least Woody and JJ completed the real mission: JJ made the all-star team. Remember that quote? Heh heh heh heh….
Big Ray
August 11th, 2009
12:46 am
KevinA,
I’m not going to continue to argue whether Crawford is better than Flip. As for chemistry issues and shots, I think Niremetal answered all those questions. Anyway, it’s not going to matter to you what I think. You don’t like the trade for Crawford, and nothing I have to say will change you mind. It’s all good…
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
1:07 am
Ariose,
Kleiza would have been a good pickup, but since he was restricted and all we could offer is the mid-level (which Denver would match), there wasn’t really a feasible route to getting him here…
blue hawk
August 11th, 2009
1:16 am
are the Hawks dersperate for a big man off the bench (10 – 15 mins. only…)
why don’t we bring the following out of retirement?
1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Elden Campbell
3. Cliff Robinson
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Raef Lafrentz
6. Chris Webber
7. Karl Malone
8. Derrick Coleman
9. i’m sure you guys can think of more…hell, maybe coach Tyrone Hill can still play some…
Come on, it’s time for Woodson to learn this lesson. He can not always rely that his talent be ‘outsourced’. It has to be a combination of both ‘outsourcing’ and growing the talent from within.
He will not be able to get the finished product, in this case, the ‘developed and mature player’, if he is not willing to pay the price, in this case, playing and giving minutes to ‘the inexperienced and developing player’ (see Acie Law, Randolph Morris, Salim Stoudamire, etc.)
blue hawk
August 11th, 2009
1:20 am
can we change the coach already?
can we get a coach who likes a faster pace or some kind of “seven-seconds-or-less” offense?
all our guys can run, even all our bigs.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
1:49 am
Nire, we could’ve thrown in Mo or Randolph to sweeten the deal lol….but it looks like thet would be unwise considering out current front court dilemma…
What about a 3rd PG? If Kleiza and Wafer couldn’t find homes, I guess Flip will be heading overseas….along with Salim, Luther Head, Lucas, Dee Brown etc….
Samuel
August 11th, 2009
6:24 am
Wink,
Dream on. I see you know about as much about hoops as my man Nire. You are officially with the “scrubb crew”.
How many championships has Phil won without at least “2 AllStarPlayers”? Thought so.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
6:45 am
Samuel, or at least one HOFer.
Hoops
August 11th, 2009
7:14 am
Ariose,
I too wanted to get Kleiza.
Whether we get Joe Smith or not, I think we should try to sign Powe as well. I understand the risk you take with his history of injuries, but he would be a great addition in January for the second half of the season. It would be like a breath of fresh air at a time that some players might be wearing down if Woodson is not using his bench enough. I really think he is worth a 1-2M gamble.
I would like to see us add Joe S, Powe, Siler, and Korolev. I think Hunter would not be needed if we sign Powe. If Powe doesn’t work out then we could go with Hunter. I’m afraid we are going to have to offer a second year if we are going to sign Joe Smith.
macaroni tony
August 11th, 2009
8:09 am
I do think this guy is going to help us, but we need a big. I will think we should play RandMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUqjvt0oKvw&feature=related
Mr. Egger
August 11th, 2009
8:15 am
Sorry if already said, but Sekou, the problem imo isn’t four more years of Joe. That actually sounds pretty nice. But when you attach that $60+ price tag, that leaves to people backing up and saying no. Make it 4 years, $50 mil, then people would be pretty happy. But the problem is, you have a significant chunk of change already committed to Josh Smith and Marvin Williams, with Al Horford due a nice raise and extension too. With the numbers floating around to keep Joe, plus a Horford raise, do you really want to commit that big a piece of cap space to those 4, especially if they aren’t likely to bring in a title?
macaroni tony
August 11th, 2009
8:22 am
Flip is who we need again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2P3HaRWf0U&feature=related
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
8:39 am
Mr. Egger- very FEW GMs around the league would back up and say no to Joe Johnson getting 75milion for 5 years, and there will be a handful that will offer more than that. You clearly have no idea about the economics of this game or what Joe’s value in the league is.
So let’s say you are right, who exactly are the Hawks saving all this money to go sign?
Currently the Hawks are in a better than average salary position. Perhaps, Jamal’s contract is a little heavy, but outside of that we have a very nice balance sheet compared to most teams in the league. This fact will benefit us greatly during the next three seasons as the financial conditions of the league change dramatically.
Why exactly are these four not likely to bring us a title?
Do you really think that NO, Denver, Miami or Dallas are closer? They are not.
BTW- Clevland still hasn’t won a title (and I don’t think they are likely to this year)
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
8:40 am
Hoops- as usual I am on board with you.
Khao$
August 11th, 2009
8:54 am
I read that, barring a failed physical, Leon Powe will sign with the Cavs. That is huge on the Joe Smith front because that will essentially eliminate any chance of Cleveland signing him. That said, the fear will always be that another team my suddenly pick up interest. Honestly, I don’t feel good with the notion of going to camp with Swift, Petro, Collins, Silar, or Randmo as our back up big. Joe Smith is old, but he still produces. I think his presence on the team can do for Josh Smith what Joe Horn did for Roddy White and the Falcons. That is, I believe we will finally have a veteren presence in the locker room who will teach our young bigs how to play in this league.
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
8:56 am
Ken Strickland- You suggest that the fact that Acie Law didn’t play many minutes then a back up front court player like Joe Smith wouldn’t either.
Also, the fact that you actually wrote “no one questions Randolph Morris’ ability” proves that you have no idea what is going on.
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
9:35 am
I see that being reported Khao$. Very interesting. Have you seen in reports on the terms of the deal?
The Truth
August 11th, 2009
9:42 am
With all of this love-fest for the apparently ungrateful Joe Smith, I’m just wondering how his jump-shooting game would exactly translate in a Woody system. With him, Bibby, JJ, Crawford and Al all on the court, we will have basically a bunch of jump shooters with lone AL trying to handle the post by himself amongst some giants of the east. You would think Woody would’ve tried to pursue a bigger PF with an interior presence to compensate for our small frontline. As much as I like Joe Smith offensive game, is he the right fit for what the Hawks really need? I guess Woody think so or is he just so desperate now that nothing is really left on the board and anything decent is looking really good.
How did we get in this predicament? Paraphrasing Woody recent comments about the last playoff run: we got caught with our pants down in the playoff with injuries and a thin bench. Now here we are again with our pants down and Woody is whining again. Maybe for good reasons but he whines nonetheless; all of course made possible by Sund. Assuming things stay as they are, which is highly likely, he will have to piece something together with scrap parts and put a positive spin on the situation. This may very well be the dress rehearsal for the upcoming play entitled: “The 2008 Hawks Sequel 2”; staring the same cast, same producer, same director with the story ending the same way; OPENING THIS FALL IN PHILLIPS ARENA. TICKETS ARE ON SELL AT THE BOX OFFICE OR AT YOUR NEAREST PUBLIX.
ken
August 11th, 2009
9:50 am
I have heard very little about Flip Murray even getting any offers from the Hawks or any other team. He was definitely the Hawks top man off the bench last year and carried them offensively many nights. Is there a reason he is being overlooked by NBA teams?
Hoops
August 11th, 2009
9:59 am
Daniel & Khao$,
Since Kleiza and Powe have been taken up in the last two days, Joe Smith is a must sign at this point. He is now the only big available that I see can help us. These other big players that are being mentioned are a waste of money. If we don’t get Joe S, then let’s just go to camp with Siler, Hunter, & Korolev. Flip may also be a possibility without Joe S.
Sund needs to offer Joe Smith 2 years and lets get this season going! We can sign up these other mini camp players in training camp!
Khao$
August 11th, 2009
10:24 am
Daniel, I think they are reporting that it is a 2 year deal at the veteren’s minimum. I believe I read that on Cleveland’s newspaper’s site.
Shawks
August 11th, 2009
10:45 am
Here is another thought on a big and it is slightly out of the box: Robert Traylor is looking into getting back into the NBA after playing abroad. He is big, could be serviceable and is motivated based on reading an article in the Detroit Free Press. He could be brought into training camp to see how he does. It would be very low risk and he can bang.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
10:45 am
nire,
Two plays from a mix tape and you’re ready to absolve Joe from all responsibility for not involving his teammates?
Remember that my response was to Samuel’s take that “iso Joe” was less the problem, than Joe holding the ball too long.
I KNOW that you watched the same games I did, therefore you MUST have seen times that Horford hustled down, pinned his man DEEP in the lane, only to be roundly ignored by our “leader”. Or you MUST have seen Josh setting (mostly slipping) a pick and peeling down the lane free but getting no pass from Joe. I have screamed at the TV more for Joe missing those kinds of opportunities than for ANY boneheaded thing Josh does. Because it happened much more often.
I’m certainly not looking to absolve Woody here, but it IS on Joe to involve his teammates more. You only refer to the plays on the tape where there was obviously too much standing around. But some of THAT is on Joe as well, because he has “taught” his teammates that he’s not likely to pass in those situations unless he needs a bailout. The whole design is screwy, yes, but my point to Sam was and is that yes, Joe is somewhat responsible. He all too often keeps his dribble when a “give and go” would be in order. That comes from not trusting that you’ll get the ball back. Do you remember how well Wade used the give-and-go against us in the playoffs? Why do we never see Joe doing that?
Lack of Imagination? Lack of trust? Coaching?
I do NOT think he’s a selfish player, as some here have said. But I certainly see a trust issue that could easily blow up this year, because the youngun’s are ready for a larger role. And in my mind, that IS on him, since he dominates possession.
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
10:55 am
Khao$- I saw the two years I just didn’t see the veteran min. part. He won’t be available until the All-Star break.
Hoops- I say 2 years at 3.5 mil per would be great.
Sam from the Swats
August 11th, 2009
11:00 am
Ariose, I agree, I would have rather had Kleiza than Marvin.
Ken Strickland
August 11th, 2009
11:05 am
SAMUEL-if a HC tells a player to hold the ball and slow the OFF down, who do you hold responsible? On the other hand, if a player takes it upon himself to hold the ball and slow the OFF down, and the HC allows it to continue without doing or saying anything to stop it, again, you’re saying you don’t hold the HC responsible? Who’s suppose to be running the Show?
I find it particularly strange that JJ can continously get away with this behavior under a HC that’s demonstrated consistently that he has control issues. He wants to control who gets drafted, traded, who plays, who doesn’t and how his OFF is run Yet he can’t, or won’t control what a particular player does to disrupt his OFF. I’m not buying it.
fudd21
August 11th, 2009
11:09 am
Sam/Rod have you all ever posted a comment that didn’t pertain to something negative about Marvin?
Sam from the Swats
August 11th, 2009
11:14 am
Yeah, surely have, about how we were killing those Laker fans at Phillips Arena talking that nonsense and they couldn’t even score 80 points against us, but hey they won it all though.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
11:16 am
Maybe the impending Powe signing will give Sund the last piece of leverage that he needs to bring Joe Smith to the team.
We can’t send a 2nd round pick (or 2) to NJ for Josh Boone? They appear to be looking to further reduce expenses and they have about 17 PFs on their squad.
lexluther
August 11th, 2009
11:16 am
Sekou,
All I’m going to say is that the re-signing of JJ makes totally good sense.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
11:19 am
Ken, so Woody is to blame when Bibby takes an ill-advised 3, or when Smith tries to lead a fast-break or when Joe forces a shot against a double team or when Zaza fails to set a proper screen or when Marvin forgets to box out or when Horford shuffles his feet in the post… players are accountable for nothing but making free throws? Oops, I forgot, that is Mark Price’s fault when they miss free throws. never mind.
lexluther
August 11th, 2009
11:25 am
I thought Flip should have been 6 man of the year. His contributions off the bench was by far the best in the east and the reason the Hawks made it to the playoffs. Why wasn’t this guy given strong consideration by this organization? He’s a baller, fearless and reliable. Not taking anything away from Jamal Crawford or the rook, but Flip proved that he is solid and can handle starter minutes. Their is such a thing as adding the wrong piece to a puzzle also. If Mike Woodson or Sund didn’t see his contribution than, “HERE WE GO AGAIN”.
lexluther
August 11th, 2009
11:32 am
As a coach, the way you control guys making bone head mistakes, is to hold them accountable for them. If you tell Josh Smith that every time he takes a three, make or miss, the later often being the result, he’s coming out of the game and his pocket will get a little lighter, that would force him to drive to the basket. There is no reason why Josh Smith shouldn’t be the type player Lebron is. You know Lebron and Josh remind me of Michael and Nique back in the day.
jhan
August 11th, 2009
11:47 am
AJ – if the “mighty fro” could play PF he would be signed by now. I also have to compliment you on your “smart-a$$” posts – you always keep them coming!
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
11:54 am
lexluther, it comes down to depth. It’s easy to say that a coach should sit a player down if they make a bone-headed play, that assumes that the coach has a viable option to come into the game. Sorry, but bringing in a Solo, Morris, Hunter or other similarly skilled player to drive home a message only hurts the entire team. If we have someone who can compete with the other team’s starters when Woody is delivering tough love, then that’s fine. But that was not the case in the past (nor appears to be the scenario for this coming season). Woody has to find other ways to “encourage the right behavior” without jeopardizing wins that other players may be working hard to secure.
KevinA
August 11th, 2009
11:55 am
When JJ goes into iso mode have you noticed how the rest of the team goes to the other side of the court to give him space? How does having Crawford on the court change that, or Flip or anybody else. I view these types of plays as bad offense, period.
Ray, I was simply pointing out potential chemistry problems. I have never stated that Flip is better than Crawford. The discussion I am interested in how we move to an inside out game considering the history of Bibby/Crawford and JJ.
Quote by Nire – I will eat my shoes if ANY of those three guys shoot as many field goals as they did last year. My guess is that the three of them will combine to shoot approximately the same number of total shots as JJ, Bibby, and Flip did last year.
If you both are correct maybe my fears are overblown. I still believe, even using with last years numbers, that the number of shot attempts by the back court will still be to high.
Nire believes that the three high volume shooters will have no problem cutting their attempts. I am simply much more skeptical.
Sautee made a good point,
Lack of Imagination? Lack of trust? Coaching?
I do NOT think he’s a selfish player, as some here have said. But I certainly see a trust issue that could easily blow up this year, because the youngun’s are ready for a larger role. And in my mind, that IS on him, since he dominates possession.
His point was about JJ, I would add Bibby and Crawford to the list. If JJ has trouble passing to Bibby to run an offense, how will Crawford be so much easier to pass to and how does that get the ball to the youngun’s.
The Truth
August 11th, 2009
11:55 am
Comparing Kleiza to Marvin, I would rather have Marvin. Kleiza is fine if you set him up for open jumpers or run screens for him but he can’t create his own shot. Marvin does attacks and get to the free-throw line.
KevinA
August 11th, 2009
12:23 pm
JJ is worth 12 million a year. If he could pass out of a double team better, throw in a couple more assists a game, and drive while shooting a higher FG% (incentive pay) should allow a couple of million more per year.
Reggie
August 11th, 2009
12:49 pm
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=east-090810&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dhollinger_john%26page%3deast-090810
The Truth
August 11th, 2009
1:30 pm
Reggie
Go ahead and cut-and-paste the article so we won’t have to subscribe.
wordsmithtom
August 11th, 2009
1:43 pm
Would be delighted to see Randy Morris get Solo’s departed minutes….IF, and this IF RanMo is indeed losing pounds and hungry enough to fight for them. We know he was a quality player at Kentucky; we know he was a solid AAU player. Perhaps, in all the hoopla, he got away from home and didn’t know how to feed himself properly and didn’t have adult guidance. Remember, his high school class hasn’t finished college, yet he has 2 year NBA experience, limited though it is. He’s still further advanced as a big than most of the kids who started college when he did.
Give him Solo’s minutes and tell Silo to TAKE THEM AWAY if he’s man enough. Motivation comes, sometimes, from being afraid the young pup will embarass you.
kwooden1
August 11th, 2009
2:01 pm
Looking at a few of last seasons games along with part of one of the Heat playoff games, I have some observation for next year:
1) Bibby needs to have the ball all the time on offensive, he’s the only facilitator.
2) Need a backup to Marvin, Evans is a SG, has problems guarding taller SFs
3) Smoove needs to stop fading on his shot
Bibby is the only really facilitator for the HAWKS. JJ can do it also, but Bibby is much more efficient and it allows JJ to get more shots. Marvin is a good match-up at the SF position, but when he goes out Evans has problems defending and rebounding at the SF position. (I know that the HAWKS played well when Marvin was out, but check the stats JJ was monster during that time) If we get Joe Smith, that might help, because Smoove and Marvin can split time at the SF position. (at least defensively) In terms of Smoove, he can shoot fine if he stops fading back on his shot and stays straight-up.
Even though they got blown out in the Lakers game I was watching last night (the one after the All-Star break), I definitely saw some good things. The defensive looked pretty good most of the game, and Flip didn’t play so that was one of the reason the offensive wasn’t great. Horford looked good against Gasol, but Smoove got in foul trouble and never really got going. Odom had a great game, but the stats don’t tell the story. The HAWKS when a long stretch without scoring, and a lot of that was good defense by the Lakers and no easy shots.
GO HAWKS!!!
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
2:01 pm
Sautee,
Quick responses.
Two plays from a mix tape and you’re ready to absolve Joe from all responsibility for not involving his teammates?
Give me a break. I didn’t absolve him of all responsibility AND I didn’t base on just the two plays. The two plays were merely for illustrative purposes. Don’t go all Anakin Joe on me and start setting up straw men.
I KNOW that you watched the same games I did, therefore you MUST have seen times that Horford hustled down, pinned his man DEEP in the lane, only to be roundly ignored by our “leader”. Or you MUST have seen Josh setting (mostly slipping) a pick and peeling down the lane free but getting no pass from Joe. I have screamed at the TV more for Joe missing those kinds of opportunities than for ANY boneheaded thing Josh does. Because it happened much more often.
I did watch those games. You said the problem of Joe not getting the ball to open teammates was mostly on him. I was responding to that. So the question isn’t whether Joe passing up an open teammate happened more often than Josh making a boneheaded play (which is a question I can’t answer anyway without knowing whether that includes Josh overplaying on his on-ball defense, etc). The question is whether it happens more often than the plays where no one moves to get open AT ALL.
You only refer to the plays on the tape where there was obviously too much standing around. But some of THAT is on Joe as well, because he has “taught” his teammates that he’s not likely to pass in those situations unless he needs a bailout.
Some of that is on Joe, yes. But most of it is on Woody. Come on. He taught his teammates to stand still? I watched JJ in his last season in Phoenix and in his first year here. Back then, he had NO problem passing to open teammates. But starting after Harrington left, the play calls increasingly became ISO plays that demanded that no one move close to the ball, so that JJ could have room to operate without having to worry about big men roaming the lane. How the hell is THAT Joe’s fault?
The whole design is screwy, yes, but my point to Sam was and is that yes, Joe is somewhat responsible. He all too often keeps his dribble when a “give and go” would be in order. That comes from not trusting that you’ll get the ball back.
I agree. But that’s less of a problem than Woodson calling plays that are Joe-or-bust.
Do you remember how well Wade used the give-and-go against us in the playoffs? Why do we never see Joe doing that?
We do see Joe doing that, and I don’t know possesses you to say he doesn’t. I see him do a give and go with Bibby at least a half dozen times per game, with Horford and Zaza two or three times, and with Flip once or twice. It rarely happens with Josh or Marvin. I think you just disregard the times that it does happen because you’re always waiting for JJ to not pass. I do take note of those instances because they do frustrate me. I don’t grumble about it as much on here because around here there are PLENTY of people who call JJ out for it every time it happens, but I’ve made entire posts criticizing JJ for not being more aware of his teammates.
But in the end, JJ is not the one calling the plays and he can’t telepathically demand that his teammates move to get open. You assume that JJ stopped passing to his teammates and THEN they stopped moving to get open. But even a cursory glance at the games JJ played in Phoenix and his first year or so in Atlanta would show that that’s simply not the case. There was constant off-ball movement there, and JJ had no gumption about passing to open teammates. He ran give-and-go with Nash probably 25 times per game. Because that is what D’Antoni demanded. In his first year here, he played a lot of point guard and created shots for his teammates at least as much as he did for himself. He was very unselfish, to the point that people were constantly slamming him as a complementary piece only and saying it was a mistake to try and build around him.
Then Harrington left, and Woody started calling ISO Joe every other play. That is when people stopped getting open, and that is when people started slamming JJ for being a ballhog and pounding the ball into the ground.
It sounds perfectly logical to say that people stopped moving mainly because JJ stopped passing. But a page of history is worth a volume of logic, and JJ’s history shows that he had absolutely no problem passing to teammates when they were open. It was only once Woody’s “ISO Joe” offense started that JJ stopped passing as much and started getting called selfish. I have no doubt that JJ feeds and worsens the cycle by not passing, but again – he’s not the one calling the plays and he can’t telepathically communicate to his teammates. That’s why him not passing more is not “mainly on” him.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
2:06 pm
SAMUEL-if a HC tells a player to hold the ball and slow the OFF down, who do you hold responsible? On the other hand, if a player takes it upon himself to hold the ball and slow the OFF down, and the HC allows it to continue without doing or saying anything to stop it, again, you’re saying you don’t hold the HC responsible? Who’s suppose to be running the Show?
I find it particularly strange that JJ can continously get away with this behavior under a HC that’s demonstrated consistently that he has control issues. He wants to control who gets drafted, traded, who plays, who doesn’t and how his OFF is run Yet he can’t, or won’t control what a particular player does to disrupt his OFF. I’m not buying it.
Well, Ken Strickland said it better in 2 paragraphs than I did in 2 pages.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
2:36 pm
nire,
Thank God that was the “quick response”!!
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
2:40 pm
nire,
You DO agree that JJ dominates offensive possessions, right?
And you DO agree that the frontcourt needs a bigger role?
So if it’s NOT on JJ, who IS it on?
Of COURSE this is rhetorical, but feel free to answer anyway.
Ken Strickland
August 11th, 2009
2:52 pm
ANAKIN JOE-come on, get real. I’m not holding Woodson, or any HC, responsible for every mistake or boneheaded play a player makes. However, if that player(s) continues to make the same mistake, or boneheaded play, and the HC does nothing to correct the problem, then I hold the HC responsible. It’s the unwillingness of the HC to address the problem that sends the message that it’s ok. Otherwise, one has to assume the player is doing what the HC wants done. Either way, it’s on the HC.
On numerous occasions over the yrs we’ve witnessed Woodson snatch SStaudemine, SJones and ALaw out of gms and immediately jump in their faces for making a mistake or an ill advised play. He was letting these players know, in no uncertain teams, that he won’t tolerate those mistakes. We’ve also seen him take it a step further by refusing to play them for extended stretches as a time, as punishment for their mistakes, regardless of the teams circumstances. This is a double standard that I’ve mentioned several times before. Rookies and less experienced players are held to a standard of having to perform at levels of near perfection, while his perferred vets are allowed to set their own standard, no matter what negative effect it might have on the team.
When Josh takes matters into his own hands, like Flip, JJ and Bibby too often do, and runs a one man fastbreak, you can’t say he doesn’t get scolded by Woodson. In fact, Woodson and Josh have been involved in so many incidents and/or shouting matches, it was assumed they didn’t get along. That was a particularly hot topic when people were wondering if the Hawks would resign Josh when he became a RFA.
Some of you are obcessed with trying to justify your support of Woodson, and you’ve resorted to twisting facts and comments of those who want Woodson out as HC. You’re not only not making your point, you’re not making much sense either.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
2:58 pm
Sautee,
I said “quick responses” not “quick response”
And it’s on Woody. I thought I made that pretty clear. He only “dominates offensive possessions” in terms of getting the ball. But the guy who gets the ball isn’t necessarily the one who calls the plays or tells people where to go – and so it is with JJ. Woody writes the plays and either he or Bibby calls them on the floor.
It’s mainly on Woody. JJ doesn’t help matters when he holds the ball too long, but it’s absurd to hold him responsible for the Hawks playbook or for his teammates not moving to get open. That’s Woody’s job.
Mystikal
August 11th, 2009
3:05 pm
lexluther, it is just wrong to suggest Josh Smith should be the type of player Lebron is. Lebron’s skill/maturity level was like a 5 yr veteran when he came into the league. Josh Smith after being in the league going into his 6th yr still has maturity issues, and I’d say his skill level is that of a college sophmore at best. They do both have all world athleticism. I think Josh soaks up making highlight reels and doen’t realize how much better he could be. While Lebron is more focused on winning and the highlight stuff is just gravy. I don’t have a problem with Josh, but I think him being a hometown guy has his scope of things messed up. I am well aware of all Josh has done and what he brings to this team on both sides of the ball. That being said, he is arguably one of top 10 most athletic guys in league and could do so much more. I want to see the guy reach his full potential, which rarely happens nowadays. A much better comparison you could make is both of them have giant EGOS!!
Chris D'
August 11th, 2009
3:11 pm
If you sign Joe Johnson to a 3 extension by the end of the contract he is most likely the 3rd most important player on your team behind J Smoove and Al Horford. Why would you tie up that much cap room in shooting guards. Jamal Crawford is scheduled to make $9 million the next two years (or 3 I am not sure). Why do the Hawks want to tie up $50 million dollars over the next two years in salary for shooting guards. Look at Crawford’s number what do the Hawks really lose if they don’t lock him up for an inflated price. He is not a max deal player he is not a superstar. In 4 years a 32 year old shooting guard eating up $16 million of your cap is not a good think. If he wants to take a reasonable offer in the $10 million range for an extension that is fine with me and probably the Hawks if not deal him this year or let him walk. Move Crawford into the 2 and take the cap space to work on the paper thin front line. Its cute to lock up our above average team with contracts but I don’t consider that any kind of improvement. In the position we are in now if one of our front court starters has a serious injury we are in the lottery next year.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
3:13 pm
Sautee,
To use a different example, Tim Duncan “dominated the offensive possessions” for 3-4 years in San Antonio while Robinson was declining and before Parker and Manu evolved into offensive threats. Duncan got the ball in the high post an amazing number of times during those years (today he more often gets it on the low post), and his “usage rate” during those years was higher than JJ’s have ever been (JJ has cracked 28% once; Duncan cracked it for 6 straight years). One big reason the Spurs offense never stagnated during that period was because there was so many people cutting and setting back screens that the defense was never able to zero in on Duncan, who probably got fewer double teams during those years than any other superstar in recent history.
But I don’t credit Duncan for the fact that his teammates cut and moved to get open, just like I don’t blame JJ for him teammates failing to do so. I credit Popovich and blame Woody.
Mystikal
August 11th, 2009
3:24 pm
I’d love to make the argument that our bench bigs would develop better if they got more pt(and they would) as was the case for Big Baby and Leon Powe in Boston. Problem with this particular instance is Boston bigs have Kevin Garnett to soak up info from and be energized. Obviously we have no one like that for our young bigs, or for Josh Smith and Al Horford either for that matter. So I really hope we can get Joe Smith signed to help fill that void. I’d like to take a step further to fire Tyrone Hill and bring in a better big man coach; preferably one with a “winning” pedigree.
Mystikal
August 11th, 2009
3:26 pm
Chris D,
Crawford’s contract runs out the same year that Horford becomes a free agent. You are correct though that he is very overpayed.
Sekou Smith
August 11th, 2009
3:44 pm
new blog up!!!!
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
3:47 pm
Ken, if Salim messed up, Woody would bring in Joe. If Acie… Bibby. If Solo – Josh Smith. See the pattern? He would answer a bonehead play by bringing in a player (who presumably) would be LESS likely to make another 2 more bonehead plays. And by doing that, the player learns AND the team has an improved chance to win. If Marvin continues to mess up and Othella Hunter is the only available substitute, then Woody would likely be doing the team a tremendous disservice. Because chances are, every 2 Marvin mistakes would become 4-5 mistakes from Hunter. I don’t consider that being inconsistent, I think that is keeping the ultimate goal in mind. Giving yourself the best chance to win the game at hand. Sure, when we were a “re-building” team, player development was the primary goal. We have passed that phase now. And if Marvin continues to make the same mistake and hurt the team, then Sund either needs to find a better bench substitute or get Marvin out the door (the use of Marvin as an example was illustrative only and for the reading pleasure of Sam/Rod).
O'Brien
August 11th, 2009
3:56 pm
Remember that game when Bibby passed the ball to an open Josh (who then missed his 20 ft jump shot)? Woody yelled at Bibby, saying he should not have passed it to Josh. Bibby yelled back at Woody, saying (and I paraphrase) “Josh was open, so I passed it to him. If you dont want him shooting those shots, then tell him not to hang out that far from the basket”.
That was just one example, but in my opinion, it’s on Woody for not being more creative offensively. How many games did we lose (especially the first 3 years (before Bibby) when we had the last shot, but the whole world knew JJ would pound the ball, and then force a bad shot at the buzzer? How about trusting other players?
Woody has no offensive creativity. If I’m the head coach, and my star player pounds the ball too long, disrupting my team’s offense, I would be constantly in his ear telling him to pass the ball. But Woody lets JJ do whatever he wants. I agree JJ should know better, but it starts with the head coach.
After all, whose responsibility is it to:
1) call plays to get the front court more shots?
2) have the team run more screens to get JJ some easy shots?
3) call plays to get Marvin more open looks
4) call more plays for Josh around the basket?
I blame Woody and JJ for the iso, but ultimately, Woody is in charge, so he gets most of the blame.
(Sorry for the long post guys).
BBgenie
August 11th, 2009
3:56 pm
Daniel: A.C. Law played like a scared 3rd grader in the Vegas summer league last month. He would not take the shot, he didn’t play like a 2.5yr vet. He was trying to hang tight with the warriors #1 pick S. Curry, thinking this will get him a spot on the warriors 12 man roster.
He could become the first ex-Hawk to receive the HDI!(Hurt don’t It!) tee shirt award. PS. Salim look very confused & lost with the Bucks. Oh my bag, He got waived last week. Damm! He should have kept his mouth closed and listened to Woody reguarding stopping someone. No Defense = No playing time on any team in the NBA. G. Siler will help us, he’s very active around basket. He out played R. Morris in most mini-camp games. He will set huge picks/screens for our 1/2 court offense. We need Fransico Elson-Bucks back up center. Played on Spurs Championship team as back up to Duncan. Only due to make $1.7 million in 09/10 season. Hawks in 7! Eastern Conference Finals. With a true 7′0 footer. addition.
jhan
August 11th, 2009
3:58 pm
It would be crazy to give Crawford $15M/year but not JJ.
I’m all for giving our frontcourt more touches but we can’t run our offense through them.
Our established scorers are all backcourt players – like it or not.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
5:04 pm
jhan,
and how did they ever get to be “established scorers”?
Somebody had to give them a green light at SOME point. eh?
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
6:51 pm
JM, Beleive me when I tell you it was MY PLEASURE LOL!!!!
Nire, Great Find!!!
rusty
August 11th, 2009
11:21 pm
nire- what the hell are you watching? jj is dominating the ball,dribble,dribble we dontt have any ballmovement in our offense. this is why we get blown out so quickly. he tries to handle the ball way to much,makes bibby a watcher. joe never runs a fast break where he will pass the ball quickly,he never drives quickly to the basket & dunks. he is highly over rated & will never bring a championship
to atlanta. lets get rid o woody & find out how our
ream will play
testing
August 12th, 2009
1:17 am
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August 12th, 2009
1:19 am
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Row 2
testing
August 12th, 2009
1:22 am
Example Marquee
Fredrik
August 12th, 2009
4:37 pm
I still can´t understand why David Andersen was traded, he´s a veteran with an attitude (that REALLY wants to play in the NBA)a excellent player to have as the complementary big man. Maybe Hawks wanted Joe Smith more. Fair enough. BUT, if that is the case, why trade Andersen BEFORE Smith is signed???? (But then again maybe Andersen wasn´t at all on the Hawks wishing list. Strange. The Rockets seems to think he´s worth giving a multi year deal… Who´s the genious and who´s the fool?)
Now Hawks might end up with a third or fourth or an even lower choice than that (If not Randolph Morris has improved extremly over the summer, and the hawks front office has forseen that, if so I most humbly apologize…)
cdog
August 13th, 2009
3:54 pm
I TOLD YOU RICK SUND WAS GOING TO MESS THINGS UP.IT SEEMS LIKE WE GO THROUGH THE SUMMER AND INTO THE SEASON WITHOUT HIM SIGNING THE NECCESSARY BIG MAN. NO EXCUSE. HE JUST STINKS AS A GM
Truth-serum
August 15th, 2009
12:07 pm
Hms
August 10th, 2009
11:53 am
Whether you have the confederate flag or not, Im not clear. I do know that you have a bubba mentality. Apparently you have not been to subway lately or you would see pictures on the wall behind the counter of the POT SMOKING,BONG WIELDING, VIDEO POSTING OF DRUG USAGE, swimmer Phelps, being marketed by subway. In case you have lost the truth, let me help you, its been less than four months since he posted videos of bragging of his marijuana usage. Imagine if that had been Tiger Woods or lebron James? Would this have been a close case four month later?
My question to you is, are we allowed to talk about the 500lb gorilla in the room? Should I do like others and sell my values to live in a uncle Tom cabin? Does ignoring the double standard make it acceptable? Is it possible to discuss racism without you spewing denials? This is a red neck news paper in a red neck state featuring a red neck blog site, which spews hatred for woodson and vick While ignoring Roger Clemems, Phelps and A-Rod-
Get real!!!
As for your bragging about being a Klan Man, well it’s a free country, Hate on.
Truth-serum
August 15th, 2009
12:10 pm
Ken Strickland
August 11th, 2009
2:52 pm
Any one wants to bet that booty breath ken cannot play nor understands fully the science of b-ball? He had too much hater aide to be real.
Truth-serum
August 15th, 2009
12:11 pm
Ecdog
August 13th, 2009
3:54 pm
enter your comments here
Ditto on the Sund mess up by not getting a center. Joe Smith is not the solution to the problem!