A closer look
The Hawks' pursuit of veteran big man Joe Smith (left) won't end until he signs with them ... or someone else.
HAWKSVILLE - We’re going to start today’s journey with the answer to the most asked questions surrounding the Hawks these days.
Until you read, see or hear of veteran power forward Joe Smith signing elsewhere, the Hawks still have a shot at landing the free agent big man.
That’s truly the best (and only real) hope available on that front.
I certainly think it helps the Hawks’ cause that they’ve already completed negotiations and come terms with all of their in-house free agents, in case you missed it Marvin Williams was the latest late last week. Because now they can focus all of their attention on filling out the frontcourt rotation with the necessary extra bodies needed as they head into training camp.
As I detailed Sunday, the Hawks plan to take a closer look at several big men over the next few weeks to see who might fit best. It’s a wise move, what with the pickings being as slim as they are this late in the summer. Garret Siler and Jason Collins are surely large enough for the job but I’m not sure that either one of them soothes any fears about the Hawks’ lack of quality depth up front. Johan Petro, Stromile Swift and Loren Woods (another name I’ve heard is on the Hawks’ radar) don’t help me sleep any better either.
Maybe, as some of his staunch supporters have been suggesting to me repeatedly the past year, Randolph Morris deserves a shot to prove he’s the guy the Hawks need. He is under contract already. And he has shed weight better and faster than the dude from the Subway ads. One scout in attendance at Tim Grgurich’s recent camp in Las Vegas reported that he was impressed with Randmo’s quick feet and shooting touch – “I didnt’ think he could play until I watched him work in that environment,” my scout friend wrote in an email over the weekend. “He’s got a chance if he can get on the floor.”
Maybe this is the year, the final year of his two-year deal, that Morris shoves his way into Mike Woodson’s rotation … or maybe not. But with their options for a big man dwindling, I can’t see where it hurts to give Morris a chance. The Hawks have actually had some success with players like Morris, lightly-regarded players that turn into contributors (Mario West and Othello Hunter come to mind as recent undrafted rookies that made favorable impressions).
Hunter strikes me as another player capable of fitting into the mix for the Hawks come training camp. He’s probably a bit undersized, but since when has that ever stopped the Hawks from throwing a guy out thee (Al Horford and Josh Smith are always accused of the same crime of impersonating “true” big men). The reviews on his performance in the Hawks’ rookie/free-agent mini-camp last summer were surprisingly mixed. I thought he was fantastic. He definitely stood out to me. But several people who were also there suggested that they weren’t moved much by his showing. It’s always subjective.
ONE LAST THING, regarding another Joe (as in Johnson). I’ll admit to being perplexed at all the rancor over whether or not it’s prudent to explore contract extension talks with JJ’s camp. Why wouldn’t the Hawks want to lock up their best player for at least four more years (and that’s all the Hawks can offer since Johnson has a year remaining on his current deal, per league rules)?
A four-year deal in the $62-$64 million neighborhood (that’s an extension from what he makes now with the proper annual raises) makes plenty of sense to me. The question is how much sense does it make to JJ’s camp as they weigh the millions you can touch now with the potential millions that might (or might not) be available next summer, when he’d be an unrestricted free agent?
I know some of you are vehemently (I love that word) opposed to the idea of “4 More Years” with Joe in office. I just don’t understand why. We’re talking about a three-time All-Star that would still be in his NBA prime at the end of the deal. And if the fears of a potential lockout two years from now are realized, I’d much rather have the core of my team locked up going into the summer of 2011 as opposed to fishing around for players with so much uncertainty surrounding the league.
Just some thought to kick of the week.
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222 comments Add your comment
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
11:35 pm
Nire, exellent post. Nothin more needs to be added to that. The proof is on the footage.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
12:16 am
Jamario Moon, Anthony Parker, Trevor Ariza, Antonio Daniels, Matt Barnes, Ron Artest, Shawn Marion, and now Linas Klezia
We couldn’t land ONE backup SF. NOT ONE. How are we going to defend Guys like LeBron if Marvin’s back starts acting up again? I WANT Korolev, 6′9 220 Good wingspan and he can shoot. He was also a former Lottery pick who came over too soon. I think the guy has a huge upside that can be developed behind the scenes while he sits behiend Mo and Marvin(until we need him).BTW, I’m really bummed about Klezia, He would have been great for us.
Big Ray
August 11th, 2009
12:28 am
Samuel,
I am. Just stoking an old fire.
Yep, not feeling too good about Acie’s chances with Nelson’s crew. We’ll see though. He’s not a Hawk anymore, and I’m looking forward to seeing what Teague can do. Moving on….
Big Ray
August 11th, 2009
12:38 am
Heh. “When will JJ take over?”
During the playoffs what you were really hearing was “when will JJ show up”…..but I guess that’s what happens when you send a one-legged man into an ass-kicking contest. But hey, at least Woody and JJ completed the real mission: JJ made the all-star team. Remember that quote? Heh heh heh heh….
Big Ray
August 11th, 2009
12:46 am
KevinA,
I’m not going to continue to argue whether Crawford is better than Flip. As for chemistry issues and shots, I think Niremetal answered all those questions. Anyway, it’s not going to matter to you what I think. You don’t like the trade for Crawford, and nothing I have to say will change you mind. It’s all good…
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
1:07 am
Ariose,
Kleiza would have been a good pickup, but since he was restricted and all we could offer is the mid-level (which Denver would match), there wasn’t really a feasible route to getting him here…
blue hawk
August 11th, 2009
1:16 am
are the Hawks dersperate for a big man off the bench (10 – 15 mins. only…)
why don’t we bring the following out of retirement?
1. Dikembe Mutombo
2. Elden Campbell
3. Cliff Robinson
4. Dennis Rodman
5. Raef Lafrentz
6. Chris Webber
7. Karl Malone
8. Derrick Coleman
9. i’m sure you guys can think of more…hell, maybe coach Tyrone Hill can still play some…
Come on, it’s time for Woodson to learn this lesson. He can not always rely that his talent be ‘outsourced’. It has to be a combination of both ‘outsourcing’ and growing the talent from within.
He will not be able to get the finished product, in this case, the ‘developed and mature player’, if he is not willing to pay the price, in this case, playing and giving minutes to ‘the inexperienced and developing player’ (see Acie Law, Randolph Morris, Salim Stoudamire, etc.)
blue hawk
August 11th, 2009
1:20 am
can we change the coach already?
can we get a coach who likes a faster pace or some kind of “seven-seconds-or-less” offense?
all our guys can run, even all our bigs.
Ariose
August 11th, 2009
1:49 am
Nire, we could’ve thrown in Mo or Randolph to sweeten the deal lol….but it looks like thet would be unwise considering out current front court dilemma…
What about a 3rd PG? If Kleiza and Wafer couldn’t find homes, I guess Flip will be heading overseas….along with Salim, Luther Head, Lucas, Dee Brown etc….
Samuel
August 11th, 2009
6:24 am
Wink,
Dream on. I see you know about as much about hoops as my man Nire. You are officially with the “scrubb crew”.
How many championships has Phil won without at least “2 AllStarPlayers”? Thought so.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
6:45 am
Samuel, or at least one HOFer.
Hoops
August 11th, 2009
7:14 am
Ariose,
I too wanted to get Kleiza.
Whether we get Joe Smith or not, I think we should try to sign Powe as well. I understand the risk you take with his history of injuries, but he would be a great addition in January for the second half of the season. It would be like a breath of fresh air at a time that some players might be wearing down if Woodson is not using his bench enough. I really think he is worth a 1-2M gamble.
I would like to see us add Joe S, Powe, Siler, and Korolev. I think Hunter would not be needed if we sign Powe. If Powe doesn’t work out then we could go with Hunter. I’m afraid we are going to have to offer a second year if we are going to sign Joe Smith.
macaroni tony
August 11th, 2009
8:09 am
I do think this guy is going to help us, but we need a big. I will think we should play RandMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUqjvt0oKvw&feature=related
Mr. Egger
August 11th, 2009
8:15 am
Sorry if already said, but Sekou, the problem imo isn’t four more years of Joe. That actually sounds pretty nice. But when you attach that $60+ price tag, that leaves to people backing up and saying no. Make it 4 years, $50 mil, then people would be pretty happy. But the problem is, you have a significant chunk of change already committed to Josh Smith and Marvin Williams, with Al Horford due a nice raise and extension too. With the numbers floating around to keep Joe, plus a Horford raise, do you really want to commit that big a piece of cap space to those 4, especially if they aren’t likely to bring in a title?
macaroni tony
August 11th, 2009
8:22 am
Flip is who we need again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2P3HaRWf0U&feature=related
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
8:39 am
Mr. Egger- very FEW GMs around the league would back up and say no to Joe Johnson getting 75milion for 5 years, and there will be a handful that will offer more than that. You clearly have no idea about the economics of this game or what Joe’s value in the league is.
So let’s say you are right, who exactly are the Hawks saving all this money to go sign?
Currently the Hawks are in a better than average salary position. Perhaps, Jamal’s contract is a little heavy, but outside of that we have a very nice balance sheet compared to most teams in the league. This fact will benefit us greatly during the next three seasons as the financial conditions of the league change dramatically.
Why exactly are these four not likely to bring us a title?
Do you really think that NO, Denver, Miami or Dallas are closer? They are not.
BTW- Clevland still hasn’t won a title (and I don’t think they are likely to this year)
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
8:40 am
Hoops- as usual I am on board with you.
Khao$
August 11th, 2009
8:54 am
I read that, barring a failed physical, Leon Powe will sign with the Cavs. That is huge on the Joe Smith front because that will essentially eliminate any chance of Cleveland signing him. That said, the fear will always be that another team my suddenly pick up interest. Honestly, I don’t feel good with the notion of going to camp with Swift, Petro, Collins, Silar, or Randmo as our back up big. Joe Smith is old, but he still produces. I think his presence on the team can do for Josh Smith what Joe Horn did for Roddy White and the Falcons. That is, I believe we will finally have a veteren presence in the locker room who will teach our young bigs how to play in this league.
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
8:56 am
Ken Strickland- You suggest that the fact that Acie Law didn’t play many minutes then a back up front court player like Joe Smith wouldn’t either.
Also, the fact that you actually wrote “no one questions Randolph Morris’ ability” proves that you have no idea what is going on.
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
9:35 am
I see that being reported Khao$. Very interesting. Have you seen in reports on the terms of the deal?
The Truth
August 11th, 2009
9:42 am
With all of this love-fest for the apparently ungrateful Joe Smith, I’m just wondering how his jump-shooting game would exactly translate in a Woody system. With him, Bibby, JJ, Crawford and Al all on the court, we will have basically a bunch of jump shooters with lone AL trying to handle the post by himself amongst some giants of the east. You would think Woody would’ve tried to pursue a bigger PF with an interior presence to compensate for our small frontline. As much as I like Joe Smith offensive game, is he the right fit for what the Hawks really need? I guess Woody think so or is he just so desperate now that nothing is really left on the board and anything decent is looking really good.
How did we get in this predicament? Paraphrasing Woody recent comments about the last playoff run: we got caught with our pants down in the playoff with injuries and a thin bench. Now here we are again with our pants down and Woody is whining again. Maybe for good reasons but he whines nonetheless; all of course made possible by Sund. Assuming things stay as they are, which is highly likely, he will have to piece something together with scrap parts and put a positive spin on the situation. This may very well be the dress rehearsal for the upcoming play entitled: “The 2008 Hawks Sequel 2”; staring the same cast, same producer, same director with the story ending the same way; OPENING THIS FALL IN PHILLIPS ARENA. TICKETS ARE ON SELL AT THE BOX OFFICE OR AT YOUR NEAREST PUBLIX.
ken
August 11th, 2009
9:50 am
I have heard very little about Flip Murray even getting any offers from the Hawks or any other team. He was definitely the Hawks top man off the bench last year and carried them offensively many nights. Is there a reason he is being overlooked by NBA teams?
Hoops
August 11th, 2009
9:59 am
Daniel & Khao$,
Since Kleiza and Powe have been taken up in the last two days, Joe Smith is a must sign at this point. He is now the only big available that I see can help us. These other big players that are being mentioned are a waste of money. If we don’t get Joe S, then let’s just go to camp with Siler, Hunter, & Korolev. Flip may also be a possibility without Joe S.
Sund needs to offer Joe Smith 2 years and lets get this season going! We can sign up these other mini camp players in training camp!
Khao$
August 11th, 2009
10:24 am
Daniel, I think they are reporting that it is a 2 year deal at the veteren’s minimum. I believe I read that on Cleveland’s newspaper’s site.
Shawks
August 11th, 2009
10:45 am
Here is another thought on a big and it is slightly out of the box: Robert Traylor is looking into getting back into the NBA after playing abroad. He is big, could be serviceable and is motivated based on reading an article in the Detroit Free Press. He could be brought into training camp to see how he does. It would be very low risk and he can bang.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
10:45 am
nire,
Two plays from a mix tape and you’re ready to absolve Joe from all responsibility for not involving his teammates?
Remember that my response was to Samuel’s take that “iso Joe” was less the problem, than Joe holding the ball too long.
I KNOW that you watched the same games I did, therefore you MUST have seen times that Horford hustled down, pinned his man DEEP in the lane, only to be roundly ignored by our “leader”. Or you MUST have seen Josh setting (mostly slipping) a pick and peeling down the lane free but getting no pass from Joe. I have screamed at the TV more for Joe missing those kinds of opportunities than for ANY boneheaded thing Josh does. Because it happened much more often.
I’m certainly not looking to absolve Woody here, but it IS on Joe to involve his teammates more. You only refer to the plays on the tape where there was obviously too much standing around. But some of THAT is on Joe as well, because he has “taught” his teammates that he’s not likely to pass in those situations unless he needs a bailout. The whole design is screwy, yes, but my point to Sam was and is that yes, Joe is somewhat responsible. He all too often keeps his dribble when a “give and go” would be in order. That comes from not trusting that you’ll get the ball back. Do you remember how well Wade used the give-and-go against us in the playoffs? Why do we never see Joe doing that?
Lack of Imagination? Lack of trust? Coaching?
I do NOT think he’s a selfish player, as some here have said. But I certainly see a trust issue that could easily blow up this year, because the youngun’s are ready for a larger role. And in my mind, that IS on him, since he dominates possession.
Daniel
August 11th, 2009
10:55 am
Khao$- I saw the two years I just didn’t see the veteran min. part. He won’t be available until the All-Star break.
Hoops- I say 2 years at 3.5 mil per would be great.
Sam from the Swats
August 11th, 2009
11:00 am
Ariose, I agree, I would have rather had Kleiza than Marvin.
Ken Strickland
August 11th, 2009
11:05 am
SAMUEL-if a HC tells a player to hold the ball and slow the OFF down, who do you hold responsible? On the other hand, if a player takes it upon himself to hold the ball and slow the OFF down, and the HC allows it to continue without doing or saying anything to stop it, again, you’re saying you don’t hold the HC responsible? Who’s suppose to be running the Show?
I find it particularly strange that JJ can continously get away with this behavior under a HC that’s demonstrated consistently that he has control issues. He wants to control who gets drafted, traded, who plays, who doesn’t and how his OFF is run Yet he can’t, or won’t control what a particular player does to disrupt his OFF. I’m not buying it.
fudd21
August 11th, 2009
11:09 am
Sam/Rod have you all ever posted a comment that didn’t pertain to something negative about Marvin?
Sam from the Swats
August 11th, 2009
11:14 am
Yeah, surely have, about how we were killing those Laker fans at Phillips Arena talking that nonsense and they couldn’t even score 80 points against us, but hey they won it all though.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
11:16 am
Maybe the impending Powe signing will give Sund the last piece of leverage that he needs to bring Joe Smith to the team.
We can’t send a 2nd round pick (or 2) to NJ for Josh Boone? They appear to be looking to further reduce expenses and they have about 17 PFs on their squad.
lexluther
August 11th, 2009
11:16 am
Sekou,
All I’m going to say is that the re-signing of JJ makes totally good sense.
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
11:19 am
Ken, so Woody is to blame when Bibby takes an ill-advised 3, or when Smith tries to lead a fast-break or when Joe forces a shot against a double team or when Zaza fails to set a proper screen or when Marvin forgets to box out or when Horford shuffles his feet in the post… players are accountable for nothing but making free throws? Oops, I forgot, that is Mark Price’s fault when they miss free throws. never mind.
lexluther
August 11th, 2009
11:25 am
I thought Flip should have been 6 man of the year. His contributions off the bench was by far the best in the east and the reason the Hawks made it to the playoffs. Why wasn’t this guy given strong consideration by this organization? He’s a baller, fearless and reliable. Not taking anything away from Jamal Crawford or the rook, but Flip proved that he is solid and can handle starter minutes. Their is such a thing as adding the wrong piece to a puzzle also. If Mike Woodson or Sund didn’t see his contribution than, “HERE WE GO AGAIN”.
lexluther
August 11th, 2009
11:32 am
As a coach, the way you control guys making bone head mistakes, is to hold them accountable for them. If you tell Josh Smith that every time he takes a three, make or miss, the later often being the result, he’s coming out of the game and his pocket will get a little lighter, that would force him to drive to the basket. There is no reason why Josh Smith shouldn’t be the type player Lebron is. You know Lebron and Josh remind me of Michael and Nique back in the day.
jhan
August 11th, 2009
11:47 am
AJ – if the “mighty fro” could play PF he would be signed by now. I also have to compliment you on your “smart-a$$” posts – you always keep them coming!
Anakin Joe
August 11th, 2009
11:54 am
lexluther, it comes down to depth. It’s easy to say that a coach should sit a player down if they make a bone-headed play, that assumes that the coach has a viable option to come into the game. Sorry, but bringing in a Solo, Morris, Hunter or other similarly skilled player to drive home a message only hurts the entire team. If we have someone who can compete with the other team’s starters when Woody is delivering tough love, then that’s fine. But that was not the case in the past (nor appears to be the scenario for this coming season). Woody has to find other ways to “encourage the right behavior” without jeopardizing wins that other players may be working hard to secure.
KevinA
August 11th, 2009
11:55 am
When JJ goes into iso mode have you noticed how the rest of the team goes to the other side of the court to give him space? How does having Crawford on the court change that, or Flip or anybody else. I view these types of plays as bad offense, period.
Ray, I was simply pointing out potential chemistry problems. I have never stated that Flip is better than Crawford. The discussion I am interested in how we move to an inside out game considering the history of Bibby/Crawford and JJ.
Quote by Nire – I will eat my shoes if ANY of those three guys shoot as many field goals as they did last year. My guess is that the three of them will combine to shoot approximately the same number of total shots as JJ, Bibby, and Flip did last year.
If you both are correct maybe my fears are overblown. I still believe, even using with last years numbers, that the number of shot attempts by the back court will still be to high.
Nire believes that the three high volume shooters will have no problem cutting their attempts. I am simply much more skeptical.
Sautee made a good point,
Lack of Imagination? Lack of trust? Coaching?
I do NOT think he’s a selfish player, as some here have said. But I certainly see a trust issue that could easily blow up this year, because the youngun’s are ready for a larger role. And in my mind, that IS on him, since he dominates possession.
His point was about JJ, I would add Bibby and Crawford to the list. If JJ has trouble passing to Bibby to run an offense, how will Crawford be so much easier to pass to and how does that get the ball to the youngun’s.
The Truth
August 11th, 2009
11:55 am
Comparing Kleiza to Marvin, I would rather have Marvin. Kleiza is fine if you set him up for open jumpers or run screens for him but he can’t create his own shot. Marvin does attacks and get to the free-throw line.
KevinA
August 11th, 2009
12:23 pm
JJ is worth 12 million a year. If he could pass out of a double team better, throw in a couple more assists a game, and drive while shooting a higher FG% (incentive pay) should allow a couple of million more per year.
Reggie
August 11th, 2009
12:49 pm
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=east-090810&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dhollinger_john%26page%3deast-090810
The Truth
August 11th, 2009
1:30 pm
Reggie
Go ahead and cut-and-paste the article so we won’t have to subscribe.
wordsmithtom
August 11th, 2009
1:43 pm
Would be delighted to see Randy Morris get Solo’s departed minutes….IF, and this IF RanMo is indeed losing pounds and hungry enough to fight for them. We know he was a quality player at Kentucky; we know he was a solid AAU player. Perhaps, in all the hoopla, he got away from home and didn’t know how to feed himself properly and didn’t have adult guidance. Remember, his high school class hasn’t finished college, yet he has 2 year NBA experience, limited though it is. He’s still further advanced as a big than most of the kids who started college when he did.
Give him Solo’s minutes and tell Silo to TAKE THEM AWAY if he’s man enough. Motivation comes, sometimes, from being afraid the young pup will embarass you.
kwooden1
August 11th, 2009
2:01 pm
Looking at a few of last seasons games along with part of one of the Heat playoff games, I have some observation for next year:
1) Bibby needs to have the ball all the time on offensive, he’s the only facilitator.
2) Need a backup to Marvin, Evans is a SG, has problems guarding taller SFs
3) Smoove needs to stop fading on his shot
Bibby is the only really facilitator for the HAWKS. JJ can do it also, but Bibby is much more efficient and it allows JJ to get more shots. Marvin is a good match-up at the SF position, but when he goes out Evans has problems defending and rebounding at the SF position. (I know that the HAWKS played well when Marvin was out, but check the stats JJ was monster during that time) If we get Joe Smith, that might help, because Smoove and Marvin can split time at the SF position. (at least defensively) In terms of Smoove, he can shoot fine if he stops fading back on his shot and stays straight-up.
Even though they got blown out in the Lakers game I was watching last night (the one after the All-Star break), I definitely saw some good things. The defensive looked pretty good most of the game, and Flip didn’t play so that was one of the reason the offensive wasn’t great. Horford looked good against Gasol, but Smoove got in foul trouble and never really got going. Odom had a great game, but the stats don’t tell the story. The HAWKS when a long stretch without scoring, and a lot of that was good defense by the Lakers and no easy shots.
GO HAWKS!!!
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
2:01 pm
Sautee,
Quick responses.
Two plays from a mix tape and you’re ready to absolve Joe from all responsibility for not involving his teammates?
Give me a break. I didn’t absolve him of all responsibility AND I didn’t base on just the two plays. The two plays were merely for illustrative purposes. Don’t go all Anakin Joe on me and start setting up straw men.
I KNOW that you watched the same games I did, therefore you MUST have seen times that Horford hustled down, pinned his man DEEP in the lane, only to be roundly ignored by our “leader”. Or you MUST have seen Josh setting (mostly slipping) a pick and peeling down the lane free but getting no pass from Joe. I have screamed at the TV more for Joe missing those kinds of opportunities than for ANY boneheaded thing Josh does. Because it happened much more often.
I did watch those games. You said the problem of Joe not getting the ball to open teammates was mostly on him. I was responding to that. So the question isn’t whether Joe passing up an open teammate happened more often than Josh making a boneheaded play (which is a question I can’t answer anyway without knowing whether that includes Josh overplaying on his on-ball defense, etc). The question is whether it happens more often than the plays where no one moves to get open AT ALL.
You only refer to the plays on the tape where there was obviously too much standing around. But some of THAT is on Joe as well, because he has “taught” his teammates that he’s not likely to pass in those situations unless he needs a bailout.
Some of that is on Joe, yes. But most of it is on Woody. Come on. He taught his teammates to stand still? I watched JJ in his last season in Phoenix and in his first year here. Back then, he had NO problem passing to open teammates. But starting after Harrington left, the play calls increasingly became ISO plays that demanded that no one move close to the ball, so that JJ could have room to operate without having to worry about big men roaming the lane. How the hell is THAT Joe’s fault?
The whole design is screwy, yes, but my point to Sam was and is that yes, Joe is somewhat responsible. He all too often keeps his dribble when a “give and go” would be in order. That comes from not trusting that you’ll get the ball back.
I agree. But that’s less of a problem than Woodson calling plays that are Joe-or-bust.
Do you remember how well Wade used the give-and-go against us in the playoffs? Why do we never see Joe doing that?
We do see Joe doing that, and I don’t know possesses you to say he doesn’t. I see him do a give and go with Bibby at least a half dozen times per game, with Horford and Zaza two or three times, and with Flip once or twice. It rarely happens with Josh or Marvin. I think you just disregard the times that it does happen because you’re always waiting for JJ to not pass. I do take note of those instances because they do frustrate me. I don’t grumble about it as much on here because around here there are PLENTY of people who call JJ out for it every time it happens, but I’ve made entire posts criticizing JJ for not being more aware of his teammates.
But in the end, JJ is not the one calling the plays and he can’t telepathically demand that his teammates move to get open. You assume that JJ stopped passing to his teammates and THEN they stopped moving to get open. But even a cursory glance at the games JJ played in Phoenix and his first year or so in Atlanta would show that that’s simply not the case. There was constant off-ball movement there, and JJ had no gumption about passing to open teammates. He ran give-and-go with Nash probably 25 times per game. Because that is what D’Antoni demanded. In his first year here, he played a lot of point guard and created shots for his teammates at least as much as he did for himself. He was very unselfish, to the point that people were constantly slamming him as a complementary piece only and saying it was a mistake to try and build around him.
Then Harrington left, and Woody started calling ISO Joe every other play. That is when people stopped getting open, and that is when people started slamming JJ for being a ballhog and pounding the ball into the ground.
It sounds perfectly logical to say that people stopped moving mainly because JJ stopped passing. But a page of history is worth a volume of logic, and JJ’s history shows that he had absolutely no problem passing to teammates when they were open. It was only once Woody’s “ISO Joe” offense started that JJ stopped passing as much and started getting called selfish. I have no doubt that JJ feeds and worsens the cycle by not passing, but again – he’s not the one calling the plays and he can’t telepathically communicate to his teammates. That’s why him not passing more is not “mainly on” him.
niremetal
August 11th, 2009
2:06 pm
SAMUEL-if a HC tells a player to hold the ball and slow the OFF down, who do you hold responsible? On the other hand, if a player takes it upon himself to hold the ball and slow the OFF down, and the HC allows it to continue without doing or saying anything to stop it, again, you’re saying you don’t hold the HC responsible? Who’s suppose to be running the Show?
I find it particularly strange that JJ can continously get away with this behavior under a HC that’s demonstrated consistently that he has control issues. He wants to control who gets drafted, traded, who plays, who doesn’t and how his OFF is run Yet he can’t, or won’t control what a particular player does to disrupt his OFF. I’m not buying it.
Well, Ken Strickland said it better in 2 paragraphs than I did in 2 pages.
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
2:36 pm
nire,
Thank God that was the “quick response”!!
Sautee
August 11th, 2009
2:40 pm
nire,
You DO agree that JJ dominates offensive possessions, right?
And you DO agree that the frontcourt needs a bigger role?
So if it’s NOT on JJ, who IS it on?
Of COURSE this is rhetorical, but feel free to answer anyway.
Ken Strickland
August 11th, 2009
2:52 pm
ANAKIN JOE-come on, get real. I’m not holding Woodson, or any HC, responsible for every mistake or boneheaded play a player makes. However, if that player(s) continues to make the same mistake, or boneheaded play, and the HC does nothing to correct the problem, then I hold the HC responsible. It’s the unwillingness of the HC to address the problem that sends the message that it’s ok. Otherwise, one has to assume the player is doing what the HC wants done. Either way, it’s on the HC.
On numerous occasions over the yrs we’ve witnessed Woodson snatch SStaudemine, SJones and ALaw out of gms and immediately jump in their faces for making a mistake or an ill advised play. He was letting these players know, in no uncertain teams, that he won’t tolerate those mistakes. We’ve also seen him take it a step further by refusing to play them for extended stretches as a time, as punishment for their mistakes, regardless of the teams circumstances. This is a double standard that I’ve mentioned several times before. Rookies and less experienced players are held to a standard of having to perform at levels of near perfection, while his perferred vets are allowed to set their own standard, no matter what negative effect it might have on the team.
When Josh takes matters into his own hands, like Flip, JJ and Bibby too often do, and runs a one man fastbreak, you can’t say he doesn’t get scolded by Woodson. In fact, Woodson and Josh have been involved in so many incidents and/or shouting matches, it was assumed they didn’t get along. That was a particularly hot topic when people were wondering if the Hawks would resign Josh when he became a RFA.
Some of you are obcessed with trying to justify your support of Woodson, and you’ve resorted to twisting facts and comments of those who want Woodson out as HC. You’re not only not making your point, you’re not making much sense either.