A closer look
The Hawks' pursuit of veteran big man Joe Smith (left) won't end until he signs with them ... or someone else.
HAWKSVILLE - We’re going to start today’s journey with the answer to the most asked questions surrounding the Hawks these days.
Until you read, see or hear of veteran power forward Joe Smith signing elsewhere, the Hawks still have a shot at landing the free agent big man.
That’s truly the best (and only real) hope available on that front.
I certainly think it helps the Hawks’ cause that they’ve already completed negotiations and come terms with all of their in-house free agents, in case you missed it Marvin Williams was the latest late last week. Because now they can focus all of their attention on filling out the frontcourt rotation with the necessary extra bodies needed as they head into training camp.
As I detailed Sunday, the Hawks plan to take a closer look at several big men over the next few weeks to see who might fit best. It’s a wise move, what with the pickings being as slim as they are this late in the summer. Garret Siler and Jason Collins are surely large enough for the job but I’m not sure that either one of them soothes any fears about the Hawks’ lack of quality depth up front. Johan Petro, Stromile Swift and Loren Woods (another name I’ve heard is on the Hawks’ radar) don’t help me sleep any better either.
Maybe, as some of his staunch supporters have been suggesting to me repeatedly the past year, Randolph Morris deserves a shot to prove he’s the guy the Hawks need. He is under contract already. And he has shed weight better and faster than the dude from the Subway ads. One scout in attendance at Tim Grgurich’s recent camp in Las Vegas reported that he was impressed with Randmo’s quick feet and shooting touch – “I didnt’ think he could play until I watched him work in that environment,” my scout friend wrote in an email over the weekend. “He’s got a chance if he can get on the floor.”
Maybe this is the year, the final year of his two-year deal, that Morris shoves his way into Mike Woodson’s rotation … or maybe not. But with their options for a big man dwindling, I can’t see where it hurts to give Morris a chance. The Hawks have actually had some success with players like Morris, lightly-regarded players that turn into contributors (Mario West and Othello Hunter come to mind as recent undrafted rookies that made favorable impressions).
Hunter strikes me as another player capable of fitting into the mix for the Hawks come training camp. He’s probably a bit undersized, but since when has that ever stopped the Hawks from throwing a guy out thee (Al Horford and Josh Smith are always accused of the same crime of impersonating “true” big men). The reviews on his performance in the Hawks’ rookie/free-agent mini-camp last summer were surprisingly mixed. I thought he was fantastic. He definitely stood out to me. But several people who were also there suggested that they weren’t moved much by his showing. It’s always subjective.
ONE LAST THING, regarding another Joe (as in Johnson). I’ll admit to being perplexed at all the rancor over whether or not it’s prudent to explore contract extension talks with JJ’s camp. Why wouldn’t the Hawks want to lock up their best player for at least four more years (and that’s all the Hawks can offer since Johnson has a year remaining on his current deal, per league rules)?
A four-year deal in the $62-$64 million neighborhood (that’s an extension from what he makes now with the proper annual raises) makes plenty of sense to me. The question is how much sense does it make to JJ’s camp as they weigh the millions you can touch now with the potential millions that might (or might not) be available next summer, when he’d be an unrestricted free agent?
I know some of you are vehemently (I love that word) opposed to the idea of “4 More Years” with Joe in office. I just don’t understand why. We’re talking about a three-time All-Star that would still be in his NBA prime at the end of the deal. And if the fears of a potential lockout two years from now are realized, I’d much rather have the core of my team locked up going into the summer of 2011 as opposed to fishing around for players with so much uncertainty surrounding the league.
Just some thought to kick of the week.
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222 comments Add your comment
Tallstacks
August 10th, 2009
2:19 pm
Sekou, have the Hawks shown any interest in Leon Powe? Seems like a pretty good fit to me, and I just read talks with the Cavs are pretty much dead.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
2:26 pm
I think Joe Smith is stalling because he has no intention to sign with the Hawks. He’s just stringing us along and waiting for Cleveland to up their offer. Kind of like how Lamar Odum flirted with the Heat this offseason but WE ALL KNEW he wouldn’t leave that good situation he had in LA.
In an article about a week ago, Joe Smith said that Atlanta is were he wants to be. Seems like a front for something bigger(cle) if you ask me…
Thats my conspiracy theory for the day lol.
tbhawksfan
August 10th, 2009
2:32 pm
How can you be so non-chalante about Woodson’s 8 man rotation. You condemn Woodson’s iso-Joe, you condemn the starters big minutes, you say that we should be a running team, yet Woodson stays with his 8 man rotation and fails to give talented players opportunities.
How about when we head into the playoffs so injured and tired that MIA pushes us to the limit and CLEV totally embarrasses us.
We all know Woodson’s 8 man rotation and the teams inability to bring in 10-11 solid nba players is a problem, yet some are willing to accept Woodson’s 8 man rotation.
When we know that we’re only talking a few million to go from a Morris to a Smith, from a Rio to a Carney, from a Zaza to a Zaza and a Bass.
Woodson is a very limited coach whocan’t sceme or adapt to his players. The Hawks are forced to compete with an 8 deep rotation. That’s sad.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
2:40 pm
Daaang, lol!!! HMS, you just made my day lol!!!!
Speaking of GI Joe, IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE MOVIE GO NOW! RIGHT NOW!
NOW! NOW! NOW! NOW! NOW!!!!
BEST MOVIE OF THE SUMMER BY FAR! THREE HOURS OF NON-STOP AWSOMNESS!!!
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
2:42 pm
tb- who are you talking to?
Sekou Smith
August 10th, 2009
2:42 pm
Haven’t heard Leon Powe’s name mentioned ’round these parts Tallstacks.
JJ was injured during the playoffs and throughout the later part of the second half of the regular season (good grief that sounds crazy). And keep in mind that once the playoffs arrive, all of that ISO Joe the Hawks use throughout the season comes back to haunt them in a two-week set with the same team.
I don’t think Joe Smith is stalling Ariose. It’s just the pace of negotiations for a 15-year vet. Sometimes it goes slow sometimes it goes quick (like Nice and Smooth said all those years ago. Ha).
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
2:43 pm
ariose who are you talking to?
Daniel
August 10th, 2009
2:44 pm
Sekou- sometimes I rhyme slow, sometimes I rhyme quick!!!
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
2:46 pm
DON’T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THESE LADIES, OR WHERE THEY CAME FROM, BUT THEY JUST GOT A NEW FAN, Hheheheheheee!!!
doc
August 10th, 2009
2:53 pm
make that two ariose
Mike is back
August 10th, 2009
2:55 pm
OB, yeah I agree the right fit is very important. However, we already have a Jason Collins in Zaza…but as someone stated previously…beggars can’t be picky…my bad…under that scenario maybe you bring in a Jason Collins. If Jason Collins is brought in and Siler mauls him in camp…who do you go with the Vet or the pup…I’ll take Siler!!!
With LBJ signaling he will opt for FA in 2010…that might help our cause in landing JS…that’s why I’m saying no to JWilliams
I could live with JS, RandMo and Siler going into camp…let them two battle it out…then wait to see what happens with guys like Kurt Thomas, Marcus Camby etc…Once teams are force to clear out space.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
2:58 pm
Sekou, LOL@ Nice&Smooth refrence. It must be the years Joe is asking for. That’s gotta be the hangup. Hey, if I was 33 i’d be asking for three years too.
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
3:06 pm
Daniel, No one in particular lol.
Doc, Amen. I offically dub thee, co-captain of the fan club heehee
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
3:07 pm
Samuel, Manny & jhan, I think that if the Hawks sign Jason Collins, that one of you should draft him in the 1st round of the fantasy league. Or second round, your choice.
Sekou, thanks. So is everyone healthy (to your knowledge)? Al, Josh, Marvin & Joe?
Loren Woods? I’d rather go with Sund’s Trio of Terror (Sene, Swift or Petro).
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
3:09 pm
WTF!!! Von Wafer AND Linas Klezia to OLYMPIACOS???? SAY IT AIN’T SO!!!!
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=13554
BrittishAnger
August 10th, 2009
3:10 pm
Joe is a conundrum of a player; while he certainly holds the key to most of this franchises success since his trade from Phoenix, you can’t deny what the growth of our draft picks and the Bibby factor include in this as well. I have enjoyed watching Joe play at his best, but in the last couple of seasons his best play runs dry very quickly due to the reliance we have had on him to produce those mega numbers in the face of adversity and heavy pressure. Back end of last season, during his injury period, the guy had a hard time sustaining that sort of heat, but thankfully we had Bibby, Horford, and the others to help deter that. This season, it is the hope of everybody who follows this team that Jamal Crawford is going to mitigate that troublesome possibility because Joe’s minutes are going to be split about 60-40 with him though the bulk of the season, and 50-50 or less when the playoffs start looming overhead and we need Joe fresh for the big show. I think the major beef for Joe comes to how much the offense flows through him at times, and also how hesitant our team is at working the ball around at times because of those hang-ups. I’ve stated before we need some new offensive schemes if only to start forcing other teams to second guess double teaming him because of the openings that defense creates and to start taking advantage of that likelihood as well. I understand your wanting to keep the security blanket around, but the teams growth as a whole cannot hinge around one player alone; Tim Duncan has a great cast around him that creates when he can’t, Kobe has a great cast around him that creates when he can’t, every championship team has run variable offenses that involve not just the Captain of the team but everybody on the floor. A rigid tree will topple in the face of a storm, while a flexible one will go with the flow and adapt to the pressure applied; our teams growth this year will come from how much more the rest of the team can be involved each night, and where the best point of exploitation will come from, whether from Joe, Mike, Josh, or even Randolph….
As it relates to that big guy, good to see you giving him some much needed attention, and I certainly hope he can make a major contribution come the beginning of the season right through to the end, but the minutes he and any other big we sign from here on out will get is going to be limited short of not accomplishing that goal at all and ending up neck deep in Small forwards and Shooting Guards. Zaza will be the first big off the bench, has been and will continue to be until the starting line-up changes, then if we were to get him Joe Smith, and then maybe Randolph, maybe Siler if we snag him. I’ve joked a bit on how the guy averages better numbers in fouling than most anything else (though looking at his season stats I may be off about that), the minutes your twelfth men get are basically hack numbers, one or two minutes at a time with nothing much to do except hope for a board or two and a chance to create some game-slowing foul situations. I actually wouldn’t mind seeing him take some back-up minutes behind Josh Smith this season if the Joe Smith thing falls through, his size is bigger than most PF’s, but against those 3-2 sets or even a 2-3, him and Zaza might stand firm against the tide (heck, run a 2-3 with just Teague, Jamal/Mo, Randolph, Siler, and Zaza against a team with weak perimeter shooting, that would throw a wrench in somebody’s socket). He’s gonna have a lot on his plate this season, and he will have to make the most of the minutes he’s given and work like he’s proving himself to the Pope and Pres. Obama to impress Woody, but with what little we saw from the mini-camp videos, and what I hope to see of him during pre-season, I got faith and a fiver he’ll crack more minutes this season…
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
3:20 pm
“wiggle, wiggle, wiggle” lol
GeeMack
August 10th, 2009
3:24 pm
It doesn’t matter what the hawks do the rest of the summer. We have already punched our ticket to mediocrity. Our coach has already indicated that the goal for the upcoming season is to finish in the top 4 again. However this time if we win 1 game in the 2nd round, the improvement will be we didn’t get sweep. How is it that the Lakers can win 30 WC championship with 15 NBA crowns, and the Hawks can’t get to 1 Championship? Please, Please, Please, Atl Hawks be a serious contenders at least once in my lifetime.
doc
August 10th, 2009
3:39 pm
ariose, rofl. honored and considered knighted ….. AJ is going to be pizzed he didnt get here first. must be a bad day at work. heh heh
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
3:45 pm
doc, without even clicking on the link, I decided that I should wait until I’m home bfore checking it out. My “freaky-deaky” radar went off immediately. I can certainly wait another 2 hours (I think)
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
3:51 pm
Big Ray,
Thought you had gotten over that Fire Woody talk. Guess not. Have at it.
You guys keep condeming Woody for a short rotation. So I looked up the stats. Just one team, the Lakers, since they won it all. What do you know. Phil basically played the same rotation as Woody. Eight guys over 15 minutes per game(Kobe,Pau,Bynum,Odom,Fisher,Ariza,Farmar,Walton) and 2 more over 10 but under 15(Powell and Vujacic). (give or take a minute).
Woody played 8 guys(JJ,Josh,Bibby,Marvin,Flip,Al,Mo,ZaZa) all over 15 min per and Acie and Solo a little over 10. I really don’t get your argument.
Bottom line is, his 8 were better than our 8. Simple as that. Phil(in all his magic) couldn’t take our 8 and beat his 8, no matter how you slice it. Tell me im wrong and I’ll STFU!!!
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
3:51 pm
Summer Prediction for 09-10, Josh Smith will average 20.9 ppg and 10.3 rbd. And he will be on 3rd team All-NBA (can you really name 6 forwards better than him on offense and defense?).
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
3:55 pm
Samuel, Acie and Solo over ‘10′ is misleading because those stats do not include DNPCD. They both had moments where they would rack DNPCD weeks at a time. I don’t remember Solo being injured last season. And I definitely don’t remember him playing in 10 straight games, besides when Smooth was injured. And we’re not going to go into the Acie situation.
ray
August 10th, 2009
3:57 pm
If Woodson were smart, he would move JJ to the 3-spot, and put Crawford at starting 2-spot. If you’ve seen Crawford play the 1, you’ve probably been underwhelmed, yet it appears that the Hawks want to give him significant clock at that position. Bad move. Also, putting JJ at 3 would let you move Marv to the bench, where he belongs.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
3:57 pm
Samuel, another thing, Kobe, Odom, and Gasol would sit half of the third and fourth quarters many games. How many times did you see Joe sit for 8 straight game time minutes?
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
4:02 pm
LMAO@ AJ!!!
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
4:05 pm
I’m sure Powell and Vuj had some DNPs too. Kobe and Pau probably sit because the Lakers had bigger leads than the Hawks. Just guessing!!
cp
August 10th, 2009
4:07 pm
Jason Collins is terrible. We might as well let RandyMo play if we are considering that guy. I like nothing about his game.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
4:08 pm
Please,
I thought the AC3 argument had been oficially put to rest. It was Woody’s style that held him back. He’s now in the most uptempo oriented style there is on a lottery team and probably won’t crack the top 10.
Mike
August 10th, 2009
4:10 pm
Good points Ramon…I’m not sure about the 20 and 10 for Josh but about how Woody wore the starters down. The guy was fighting for his job…if we didn’t get off to a good start Woody would have been canned mid season. And that meant playing Joe 44 minutes a night when a lot of nights we still would have won if he played 35.
The hope is Jamal can take take a few of those minutes away and Teague can play 20 minutes a night…because we do not want Bibby playing more then 30 minutes a night.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
4:12 pm
Samuel, Powell and Vuj didn’t sit 20 games a piece like Solo and Acie did. And when healthy did Mbenga not get close to 9-10 minutes a game. In the 20 games he was there, did Brown not get 10 minutes a game? And true enough sometimes they had bigger leagues. But have you not seen Phil rest Kobe even when his team is down by 10-12 points? Have you ever seen Woody do that at the beginning of the 4th?
Anakin Joe
August 10th, 2009
4:16 pm
Loren Woods?
Looks like Big Baby is back in the Celtics fold and Kleiza is joining Childress’ team in Greece.
And we’re asking for medical records for Raef LaFrentz, Chris Mihm and Sam Bowie.
Tony from Stone Mountain
August 10th, 2009
4:20 pm
Ariose, Thanks for the “wiggle, wiggle, wiggle” l watched it three times.
Stating the Obvious
August 10th, 2009
4:26 pm
Petro and Collins hold no interest for me, even though Collins is my boy. We don’t need a downgraded version of Jamaal Magloire. We need Joe Smith, Brian Skinner, or Sund signing and forcing Woody to play Othello Hunter.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
4:32 pm
Samuel, no one’s saying Acie should’ve played 25 min a game, but I’m not going to sit here and believe he couldn’t have contributed 15 min a game.
Mike, I’m just thinking by natural progression, and shooting 70% from the line, the 20 pts should come quite naturally for him. And the 10 rebounds? Well with Crawford on the squad now, and no PF backing him up, he’s going to have a lot of chances to get 10 rebounds from jump shots, lol.
As crazy as it sounds, I wish Smoove and Horford could have a few sessions with Rodman. I would love for them to gain some of his knowledge about knowing where the ball would bounce, and angles of the shot going up. Could you imagine Smoove and Horford being able to box out half as good as Rodman with their athletic ability? Nique was never a super rebounder, and Ty Hill had one good season with Cleveland, and collected checks with Mutombo in Philly. But these guys could benefit so much (and Marvin) from learning from some rebound masters. I know Smoove spent a summer with the Dream, but the Dream wasn’t even the best rebounder on his teams (Thorpe and Barkley).
doc
August 10th, 2009
4:33 pm
aj dont let the wife in until after you see it. it might be an unsafe zone for her though. you may have to put up some of those orange pilons detecting a danger zone enter at your own risk
Melvin
August 10th, 2009
4:35 pm
Ramon,
I hope you are right about Josh…
Ariose
August 10th, 2009
4:46 pm
Tony, No problem hehehe!!!
Doc, lol! Yeah AJ, the MRS. might get jealous and not fix you dinner heh!
UGA
August 10th, 2009
4:47 pm
Brian Skinner???
Mikki Moore???
We should at least have some interest in these guys I think.
O'Brien
August 10th, 2009
4:56 pm
If the Celtics are healthy, I think they will be the team to beat in the East (especially if Ray Allen is hitting shots). Perkins, KG, Rasheed, Big Baby (I’m not including Shelden)…thats a nice front court, and they shouldnt have the Chemistry issues Orlando has. And while Boston is a big 3/maybe big 4 (with Rondo), Cleveland is the big 1.
Samuel, if you look at the numbers (Hawks vs Lakers), on the surface, they are similar. And I agree that its easier for Phil to sit Kobe at key moments. However, some of it goes deeper than numbers.
If Woody would trust his other guys and run plays for them (especially Marvin and Josh), maybe Woody would not be so reliant on iso JJ, and maybe this would allow JJ to rest for the 4th Q and playoffs.
Minutes played per game last season:
Kobe: 36.1, LeBron 37.7, Wade: 38.6,, JJ: 39.5. Wade had a rookie coach and 2 rookies (including a rookie PG) who played significant minutes, and he still played less than JJ. And how many DNPCD’s did Hawks players get, even when the starters were clearly struggling.
Now If the Hawks win 50 games and make it to game 7 of the second round, then Woody will deserve his 2 or 3 yr contract extension. Either way, I just dont see Woody as the guy to take us to the next level (ECF or NBA finals).
Najeh Davenpoop
August 10th, 2009
5:15 pm
Even if Morris is better, his improvement should be seen as a luxury by the team, not an expectation. The Hawks can’t realistically be expected to contend if they are relying on him to play big minutes. If he grows into his own and becomes a contributor, great, but you have to start the season with someone more reliable ahead of him on the depth chart.
jhan
August 10th, 2009
5:43 pm
ILL – I think Bibby’s value was determined long before he came to Atlanta. Not sure what Woody has done for him except played him.
Mo Evans – what value does he really have & what has Woody done? He used to be a starter & now is a bench player. Doesn’t sound like Woody has enhanced his value in any way.
JJ – Who else was going to score when we first got JJ? Woody didn’t have any choice but to lean on JJ.
Has this team started to decline already? They just completed their 4th year in a row of elevated win totals. Their core is signed for the next 4 years and they are all under 28 – except Bibby.
Not sure where your coming from.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
5:47 pm
Najeh, I agree totally. Yet, I still wish the Hawks could trade Crawford for Camby, and re-sign Flip. In a perfect world, lol….
jhan
August 10th, 2009
5:48 pm
Wiggle Wiggle indeed!!
UGA
August 10th, 2009
5:58 pm
Mikki Moore:
I could see him as a back up PF. I remember when the Hawks played the Celtics how well he rebounded and how active he was. One game he had 10 boards against us and the next 6 boards. If no Joe Smith, he seems like a good replacement.
Ken Strickland
August 10th, 2009
6:23 pm
DANIEL-you really went out of your way to misrepresent what I said in my lsat post. Go back and reread it, then show me where I referenced Joe Smith or compared him to Joe Smith, either directly or indiretly. Also, rookies that are fortunate enough to become starters under Woodson will get plenty of mins, often too many mins. The young players that get shafted by him are the ones that end up on his bench.
Why ask me how ALaw is doing at Golden State when you know training camp hasn’t started yet?
NAJEH-what’s up my friend? Look, the only Big that’s gotten heavy mins off our bench is Zaza, and he only got around 19mins. So any #2 backup Big will be a luxury with our limited rotation. I don’t have a problem with RMorris becoming the #2 Big. I just hope he gets a consistent chance to produce. If he’s going to get 10MPG, like Solo,let it be consistent mins so that he can maintain his stamina, motivation, focus and consistent production.
I doh’t think there’s been any doubt about Morris’ ability, just his motivation, focus and work ethic. If he’s properly motivated and given consistent mins and opportunity, he could end up being what we’re looking for in a #2 backup Big. Even with his weight loss, he could compliment Zaza as a banger, and we can certainly use a Big with a postup gm, even off the bench.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
6:24 pm
I believe you guys are still laying too much of the blame on Woody. I don’t think Woody is telling Joe to hold the ball. It’s up to Joe to be the facilitator. I’ve seen the Lakers offense many times start with the ball in Kobe’s hands but Kobe usually makes a concerted effort to get others involved.
The coach doesn’t have to tell him to do that. Kobe learned that he can’t do it all by himself. JJ has to do that if we are to become a better team.
I have also seen the ball go in to Al and he is unable to make quality moves in the post. I don’t think anyone here will honestly dispute that Al needs to get better at that. There’s a big difference in Gasol and Odom post moves, and Al and Josh post moves. Come on.
And lastly, What coach out there who will guarantee that we can crack the Top 3 with the roster we have. If they can’t guarantee that, why change and risk going down.
Just sayin.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
6:32 pm
Ken,
I can tell you.
1. Ellis
2. jackson
3. Magette
4. Randolph
5. Biedrens
6. Turiaf
7. Curry
8. Morrow
9. Azeubuiki(or whatever his name is)
10. BWright
11.Deven George
He’ll likely be fighting it with the “Speedster” for the 12 spot, unless you see anybody 1-10 he can beat out.
Ramon
August 10th, 2009
6:36 pm
Samuel, just yesterday evening I was stating what I feel is Joe’s fault. All I commented on in reference to your post was you stating that Phil and Woody have the same rotation system, when they really don’t. I said all yesterday afternoon how I feel Joe could make his job a lot easier.
Josh post moves isn’t that terrible. He’s actually one of the best post offensive players in the division. Yet somehow he manages to have his coach repeatedly tell him to camp out at the top of the key. Think for all the bad jumpers people say Smooth takes (and some of them aren’t any worse than the ones Flip would throw up) his percentage still ends up being higher than everyone except Horford’s. That must mean when he’s given the opportunity to work on the block, he’s successful. And THAT is Woody’s fault that its not used more.
Samuel
August 10th, 2009
6:45 pm
How do you know Woody tells him to hang out at the 3pt line. Josh is kinda “hardheaded” you know. I agree that he has some good post moves. I just don’t think he likes it down there on offense. Not too sexy for this generation. U know what i’m say’n.
Coaches can’t play. And it’s not as simple as you think to sit a player. Especially when he’s making 11 million dollars a year and pretty much the only drawing card you got.
Just sayn!