Extension talks for Joe

Enough talk…let’s get things done. Finalize the Marvin deal, get Joe Smith in and give Joe an extension. The last thing we want all season is talk about whether Joe is staying or going.

With Joe Smith our 10 man rotation is set.
Bibby, Teague
Joe, Crawford
Marvin, Mo
Josh, Joe Smith
Al, Zaza
Not bad and we would finally have some experienced depth…Then we can fill the final spots with Siler, Hunter, West and another guard.

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Extend him? Trade him.

…and fire Woody.

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nevermind he is signed through next year. sorry about that.

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Sekou,

Read an espn analysis of our roster saying we’d have jamal starting at the 2 and moving joe to 3, Al at 4, and ZaZa starting at center…bringing Josh and Marvin off the bench. Josh off the bench is not a good idea for alot of reasons in my opinion and ZaZa is not starter material. Woody doesn’t consider that an option right? Just want to confirm it was the journalist’s ideas and not ours.

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Extending him and signing Marvin would ensure we have a solid team for the next several years (barring serious injury or other problems). Does it make the Hawks championship contenders though? Also, will re-signing Horford or other future free agents be financially feasible with the $ already allocated to our guys over the next 5 years?

I’m not complaining, I just hope that casting our lot with our core will result in a title. They will definitely have to do it like Detroit did a few years back.

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Keep Joe!

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Earnest- RandMo has clearly shown that he does not belong in the league. No training camp will change that.

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I think the move to setup a contract extension is a smart move by Ricky Sund; rather than having to worry about competition stealing Joe away and leaving it up to ASG to replace him (good luck with that butterball), better to lock him up now and then work with what little money we’ll have remaining on securing the RFA’s and replacing the UFA’s (short of what we can get in next years draft with that extra pic from Houston).

You know I’m happy Siler will be back for training camp, good news indeed Sekou. Randolph is gonna have a fun time fighting the kid for minutes, but hopefully both will provide for the team in their own way (I will admit Morris’ jumper looks more confident than it did at times last season). Keep up the good work, Mr. Smith.

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Extending Joe is defintely needed. This core is solid and needs to be kept together since 3 of the keys are young. The tricky thing being overlooked is the Crawford deal is gonna probably push us over the luxury tax line next year – that’s got to impact what they can offer Joe. Will ownership really go for paying the tax when only the Lakers, Cavs and Celtics sell out games?

After getting Marvin, Joe, and hopefully Joe Smith done, Sund needs to seriously evaluate Woodson. He’s done some nice things but he still can’t reach Josh and the offense is stagnant an unimaginative.

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Some guys just “get it”. An excerpt from the Orlando Sentinel:

Howard just wants to clear up one thing: Despite all the fun he’s been having, he said he’s focusing on his game. Two training specialists — Bryan Meyer and Korey McCray — have accompanied the 23-year-old superstar as he has crisscrossed North America. Meyer, a trainer who works at RDV Sportsplex, helps Howard with strength and conditioning. McCray, who played point guard at Mercer University, assists Howard with his free-throw shooting and moves on the court.

Meyer and McCray said they each work with Howard for about an hour to 90 minutes five or six days a week.

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BK- If they give him roughly the same contract, then it does nothing to our team’s cap situation. Now, a shrinking cap number will have an effect, which will be equally shared across the league. A lot of these teams(clevlan, boston) with high priced aging veterans will really be in the weeds then. So, to sign a young player who has been a cornerstone to the teams success is smart business. Clearly, Joe deserves more money than Josh, so his contract has to stay in the 14 mil range.

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Tony- your comments don’t make any sense. How does extended Joe’s contract affect Josh, Marvin and Al. They are all under contract (or be extended, like Marvin). It is not an either or situation. No joe is not the same player that Lebron or D.Wade is (he is also not as whiny), but that doesn’t mean he isn’t one of the better players in the league. Max type contract players come in more varieties than just Kobe and Lebron. See the NBA has the contract structure for players that limits how teams pay them…. well obviously you have no idea how this thing works.

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Do you know how long of an extension they’re talking about?
3 years or less would be good, longer then that I don’t like it. I just think it’s a matter of time before JJ’s body starts to break down from all the minutes.
He can barely dunk the ball now.

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Its Funny How everybody keeps dogging Joe.. He was the reason why the hawks finally made it back to the Playoffs. Oh and remember Game 7 of of the 1st round against the Miami Heat.. Who showed up, JJ or Wade?

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Guys why are you all stuck on Joe. I like Joe as a player but I’m simply saying we cannot get to the championship w/o Marvin, Josh, and AL playing at a high level.

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Tony, I don’t understand, what do Al, Marvin & Josh have to do with extending Joe? Are you suggesting that they can’t become better players if Joe is still around?

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Randolph morris is only 23 years old wow if only he can just focus more and get with the right teacher.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

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I like the Joe Johnson Josh Smith combination. Josh brings that excitement with sick dunks and block shots, and Joe adds steady consistant scoring. Get Joe signed now before other teams get involed next off season, build around these two guys.

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Anakin Joe

August 5th, 2009
11:12 am

CAN YOU HELP THE HAWKS GET A REAL BIG MAN SO THEY CAN COMPETE SERIOUSLY. WITH THIS TEAM OF POWERFORWARD AND GUARDS THEY WILL BE A LOT LIKE THE DALLAS MAVERICK AND THE PHONIEX SUNS, GOOD BUT NO CHAMPIONSHIP AND NO FINALIST. CANT WIN WITHOUT A CENTER AND JOE SMITH IS NOT THE MAN. HE POSES NO OFFENSIVE THREAT IN THE LOW POST. JON KONCAK, I MEAN ZAZA THE HUMAN TURNOVER IS THE MOST UNATHELETIC MAN IN BASKETBALL FEATURING A 3″ VERTICAL LEAP, NEITHER IS HE AN OFFENSIVE THREAT. THE HAWKS ARE WEAK, VERY WEAK AT THE CENTER POST AND MOST TEAMS EXPLIOT THEM THERE, ASK 5′10″ TONY PARKER. THE BIRDS WILL LOOK GOOD AGAINST MEDIOCRE TEAM BUT WILL BE FORCED OUT OF THE PAINT ASGAINST REAL TEAMS. JUST ASK JOSH SMITH.

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Had Woodson / management played Othello Hunter and Randolph Morris in the NDBL over the last couple of years, would we be having these conversations about the need for frontcourt help?

Consider this, no player gets better sitting on the bench. Despite Woodson’s statements to the effect that all of the bench players need to stay ready for their opportunity, guys like Solo, Othello and Randolph had very few opportunities to hone their skills under the current regime.

The only gauge of their respective abilities that we the fans have had is Woodson’s opinion. And frankly, I am not sure his credibility is intact in these matters.

The point: If Garret Siler is to ever become a productive NBA player, he has to be strategically developed. A dedicated coach/ consultant; NDBL time and patience. Otherwise, he will become just another guy left on the bench while the fans acream where’s the beef!

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Al won’t likely get a raise until Crawford is off the books, which will happen the summer that Al becomes a RFA. So yes, we can afford to pay Joe his money. We just won’t be able to afford much more than a scrub big man until Mo’s $2.5M is done in the summer of 2011. Unless, we trade for an expiring contract before the February trade deadline.

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Eric what big man isn’t garbage?
go hawks!!!!!!

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Oh dear. The ugly Crawford contract rears its head again. Now Horford can’t get a raise. Wow. Sund has doomed this team.

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JJ’s play sorta does depend on how smoove horford and marv play. What im sayin is that when jj is on the floor they have a different mentality than when he isnt……..Their of course breaking out of it now, smith carrying the team or al carries the team in some games. But there are times where it depends on jj. Usually when he has a “bad” game, his teammates have a better one. I dont think he always has bad games, i think he just chooses to pass rather than shoot which is of course why his ppg went down. He chooses to give someone else the ball and give other guys a chance so the team just doesnt depend on one guy………Just my thoughts for now….

I also think rextending or talks of extending his contract right now is good. Especially since he will be on the market and planty teams want this 3 time allstar that practically turned his team 360.

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Sund is smart. This moves proves it. I think Sund gets the best of both worlds by doing this move. If Sund is able to come to an agreement with JJ for an extension then every thing is great.

However, if he’s not, by starting this summer, Sund opens up the possibility of trading JJ this summer or during the season. Sund realizes if JJ leaves next summer, no big name free agent will come here. So if you’re getting the feeling from JJ’s camp that he’s in love with the idea of going to NY, why not try to see whats the most you could get for his contract, if you can do it with out losing out in your standings.

Everyone kept saying Josh for Bosh, or Josh for Amare. But could it be Sund is considering JJ for Jefferson (Al), or even Bosh (if he agreed to extension)? Or could it be Sund is trying to show Joe Smith or any other free agent that he DID attempt to keep his team together, and will always look out for his players? Because with the exception of Childress, Sund has actively re-signed all of his free agents from his team.

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Ramon,

I think Sund is smart to begin negotiations with JJ. It shows that he knows the clock is ticking. tocking. ticking. tocking…

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Chris,

He can hit jumpers. And hooks. And get rebounds. Maybe block a shot or two. More than anything else, he’s a solid player who can also help mentor our young big men. We’ve needed that for a long time.

For some reason, it was unknown to some that we didn’t have a decent veteran big man until this offseason. We didn’t have one the entire time Billy Knight was here. Unless you count Lo Wright, who showed that it was possible to average more fouls per game than points or rebounds per game.

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Who’s getting excited about the extension talks? We’re just talking about it. Extension talks do mean something. They mean you’re paying attention to your player. These things always start slowly. But they gotta start somewhere.

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My name is cornholiooooooo!

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Joe Smith is a valuable player, if you don’t think so go ask Kevin McHale (lol). Joe Smith is a steady presence, who gives you the same production no matter whats going on, without having plays ran for him. Another thing is if Horford had Joe Smith offensive ability, he would easily average 15-10, without plays ran for him. And Joe is the perfect person to help with Horford being young, a high lottery pick, with so much expectations on your shoulders.

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Chris,
Ditto Big Ray re: Joe Smith.
Also, he was THE #1 pick in the draft a few years back. Obviously he’s lost a lot of the explosion, etc. he had when he was younger, but he is solid & about the best veteran big available. Oh wait, heard Priest Lauderdale might be looking for a team : )!

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Coach D,

You just ain’t right. Priest Lauderdale, ugh! Prior to him, I didn’t know there was such a thing as a 7′4″ guy who played below the rim.

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I am excited to hear about the contract extension for Joe Johnson, but what about Flip Murray. Hawks shouldn’t let this guy go.

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Tony- I did read what you said, and it doesn’t make any sense. If you don’t believe me, look at the other comments.

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Ray,

Your mom.

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Big Ray,

I do believe you need to add in that Howard has Patrick Chewing as a bench coach on the Magic.

Ty Hill<Patrick Chewing

Blowrenzen Wright should have retired…a LONG TIME AGO.

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Hoops—Josh Smith is not going ANYWHERE.

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Ray, I don’t know that the Magic suggested that Howard work out with those guys. Maybe his agent did. I don’t know that the Hawks haven’t suggested who our young guys should practice with in the off-season. Nor do I know if their agents offer any assistance. I do know (based on what I heard as recently as 2 days), that the Hawks players do not take the time to learn from guys like Dennis Scott or ‘Nique (each of whom are employed by the Hawks, live in Atlanta and travel with the team). At least, that’s what I heard Dennis Scott say on the radio this week. If the younger players don’t know how to find trainers like Howard did, one would think that talking to readily available experts like Scott & ‘Nique would be a good start.

Horford could sign an extension as early as next summer but it would require the owners to pay the luxury tax, so I doubt that happens. He becomes a free agent the same year when Evans and Crawford’s contracts expire. If Sund is successful in negotiating a starting salary of less than $10M for Horford, then he would absorb Evans’ slot.

Anything else?

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daniel, daniel

who knows what Randolph is capable of I sure don’t. really when you think about it Solomon JOnes is gone, the wear and tear of the season and minute accumulation has proven itself. so we know that players are going to have to get more rest so we can be healthier when the real season starts.

So Siler will hopefully get more playing time simply because he is bigger and stronger than randolph morris.

honestly the teams offensive scheme doesnt even call for a offensively skilled big man it is the lack of perimeter defense that makes our reserve bigas look so bad.

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It’s good that they are starting contract extension talks now, so that it gives them a chance of getting this done before the season starts. Better to not have this as a distraction during the season. But I would like to see some more progress on the Joe Smith signing…

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realsquawk- everyone who has ever watched Randolph Morris play is capable of seeing what kind of player he is. He is at best a nice pick up player at run and shoot.
Siler will not be able to contribute anything significant next year. Please stop with these silly dreams and trying to look at a you tube video of 10 secs. to form your opinions. I am not saying I don’t like the guy, heck, I don’t know the guy. But he is a 7footer that played Div II ball, at an average level, who got passed over twice by every team in the league. Got it?

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I meant* so his opinion on the Hawks are ill-advised.

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Keeping the scorer, Joe ’smokin gun’ Johnson around best suits the Hawks and its fan base. Eventually, with the right hunger, the Hawks are Eastern Conference Champions.

What about Josh Smith? Is Josh Smith working on his low-post game? Woody should have him in the gym developing Josh’s low-post game.

I remember Woody’s play days at Broad Ripple High School in Indiana. He had a soft off the glass jump-shot. A nice low-post game.

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As far as I can tell, we have Zaza and Horford as contributing signed bigs.

Anyone who thinks adding a Joe Smith to that rotation will not help, is a Morris, Siler, and whoever else these unproven players are, dreamer.

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Hawks moving on up in the world. More national tv games, more games on NBA tv, Garrett Siler is coming to camp, Marvin will be extended, Joe Smith hopefully will come aboard and Sekou is churning out multiple blogs. Who would have thunk it? Next season schedule looks to be the best Hawks have had in 3 years.

And make no mistake. Smart move by Sund in trying to extend Joe Johnson’s contract. For one, it shows love for the only star that ever wanted to play with Hawks in this decade. The guy that got the Hawks out of a 13 win season and finally into the playoffs. And Joe was hurt in the last playoffs too. Dude still has a lot of ball left to play.

Also, make no mistake, lots of teams are going to lose out on the so called free agency bonanza coming up next year. I see most of those players, Wade, LeBron, Kobe staying with their present teams. So teams like NY that has been hoarding money will turn to consolation prized players like Joe, Chris Bosh, Boozer and co. So Sund smart to try and extend his precious shooting guard now.

With more national exposure comes more Hawks scrutiny, especially on Woodson. Hope he remembers ESPN laughing at his offence, and Kenny Smith clowning him on TNT. Hope he returns with more tricks in his offensive arsenal. Let’s win some of those televised games.

Go Hawks, GO!

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JJ is fairly paid, some may think he is slightly over paid. I would offfer JJ 14 mil a year for 4 years and give him a chance for incentives like $250,000 for an extra assist per game, $250,000 for .450 for FG% and $500.000 for 56 wins. I wish we had the same thing with Bibby and Crawford/Flip. We need their scoring but in the context of playing inside out with ball rotation.

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truth-serum,

You said this: HAS ANY ONE MEASURED ZAZA KONCAK’S VERTICAL LEAP? DOES ANYONE KNOW WHY HE IS A CONTINUING TURNOVER?

Zaza’s turnovers this past year: 1.18 / game in 19.1 minutes.

Which is a ratio of 1 turnover every 16.18 minutes.

Your boy Flip (TOUCHE’ ON THE FLIP. THE GUY CAN FLAT OUT PLAY.)

made 1.6 turnovers / game in 24.7 minutes.

That’s a ratio of 1 turnover every 15.38 minutes.

Hmmm….. looks like you SHOULD be down on Flip for turnovers instead of Zaza.

Flip turns it over at a greater rate than your whipping boy. Oh the irony!

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Sekou, first welcome back from vacation, good to have you back. Fully agree with you about keeping JJ sooner than later. He is a top 20 player in the league and the best hawks have seen in forever. Can’t worry about next summer now, cause if we don’t win more problems will be created. Don’t want JJ to feel neglected by us not stepping up to make him feel wanted. They can say what they want, all the success we are experiencing began when we traded for him. And he’s consistently gotten better every year, despite being played too much.

bigeasy830, we don’t want Joe Smith the #1 pick. We want the experience role player that knows and does the little things. Also the guy that can’t help Marv, Josh, and Al mature their games.

Daniel, agree not likely that Siler will amount to much, but looking at everything that has happened successfully for this organization past two years, wouldn’t rule out him being a decent 8th man.

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daniel,

i got it, but when we go up against shaq and we don’t have some big mammoth of a center to pick up some fouls simply becauase randolph is to soft and zaza and al horford shouldn’t have to play that role then what are you going to be asking for? a big right, with no apparent skill other than to take up space. again or offense and defense does not ask for the reserves to do anymore than take up space and play hard.

he could play two minutes and be an improvement over what we are getting cause there is no one there.

and had he got picked fifth like someone else we know would you be talking about his lack of contribution this upcoming year or the team making a mistake. Teams make mistakes. Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Gilbert Arenas, Micheal Redd, Ramon Sessions, Darko Milicic, Marcin gortat, Kwame Brown!!!

He doesn’t even half to be as bad as any of those guys to contribute as the 4th big option on our team.

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Sautee, I saw your post from the last blog, figured that a prankster was at works on this one. I don’t have the secret-decoder ring like Ray.

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realsqauwk- I am not trying to beat a dead horse, but if you think 2-3 minutes a game or the occassional 10 min with 3-4 fouls and a rebound is any kind of contribution, then you are right.
But seriously asking you again, if you think that just the pure fact that he is big is enough to match up against D. Howard or Shaq, even for 8-10 minutes a game. Then why has no other team in the league seen that TWICE!

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RMan , excellent point…at the very lease…I hope Sund and ASG are asking those question,”Right!!”

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RMan, I agree. I am hoping that Woody has studied the Hawks season and the game plan of more successful coaches over the summer. And hopefully, he has had a chance to spend some face time with coaching mentors, innovators, etc. I wish that he and Larry Drew (since they both have links to the Kings franchise) could gain some insight into the offense that Bibby used to run with C-Webb, Peja, Vlade, etc. Wishful thinking, I’m sure.

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Mike B., the funny thing is that the “offensive coordinator” on Brown’s staff was John Kuester… now with the Pistons. So they will likely un iso Rip, iso Ben Gordon and iso Stuckey a few times a game.

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big dave,

Roy is almost 3 years younger than Joe (2 yrs, 11 mos.). The idea of a 5 year contract for JJ scares the heck out of me. It ALREADY looks as if he’s breaking down at 28. What will he look like at 33?

I say 3 years with a team option for a 4th. And for no more than he’s making now (which is actually a little high for his production).

Something like 3 for $43.5M seems BETTER than fair in this market. After all, Bibby took a 67% pay cut.

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One caveat about re-signing JJ. He MUST begin to trust his young frontcourt or we will have MAJOR chemistry problems. These are no longer the “wet behind the ears youngun’s” that he had to hold together from a few years past.

If I were Sund, I’d HAVE to ask him if he’s ready and willing for a somewhat smaller role before committing millions long term. Without the continued growth of the frontcourt, (barring a major trade) we can NOT compete for a ring.

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umm i was thinking more along 4 and 50 to 58 range.

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Sautee; I’m with you. JJ needs to change his attitude and the Hawks offense will follow.

Don’t see JJ signing a three year deal. If we can get JJ to sign a fairly attractive deal (Bibby, Zaza, MW), we will be in very good trade position going into the future.

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Sautee…

in my opinion… Joe finishes his career here… i cant say that he looks as if he’s breaking down. truthfully he played through injury last season, a pro’s pro and gives you nothing but production. if his head coach stops putting him through “Iron Man” competition year after year he’ll be fine. even at 33 chances are you get a savvy vet who probably improves from 3 and develops a post up game. 33 isnt old given his skill set and versatility. you either keep him here or low ball him and let him go be Pippen… i like Joe with our improving roster…

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question…

given “what we do here” (a Michael Woodson staple) who do you replace Joe with to either elevate or continue the growth of our team? to me its more of what he means to our team vs relative value. chemistry is very important here…

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Chemistry.

Exactly what I’m worried about. For the last few years the team has (understandably, and correctly) bowed to Joe but you could see some chafing last year. And Joe didn’t help by continually lapsing into pounding the ball, watching a double team, and asking a teammate to bail him out at the end of the shot clock.

If you give Joe a max contract, and he only performs to last year’s level, will that sit well in the locker room? And would we as fans think that Sund was doing a good job?

Chemistry. My biggest offseason worry.

I’m sorry big dave but I’ll have to disagree on the max contract. To me, a max player is one who potentially could take you to the Finals on his own.

Shaq (in his prime), Kobe, Duncan, KG. Joe is very good but not on THAT list.

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correction: 17+ mil/yr

18-19 thats ignorant money…

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What about Joe Johnson’s game says he is worth anything over 10 million? Joe can NOT be the man. Joe is an EXCELLENT role-player, but he is not a #1.

I try not to be too harsh on the Hawks players because Woodson’s offense is so predictable and complacent.

However, if Joe Johnson gets signed to a long-term deal I will throw up in my mouth. And I hate throwing up in my mouth.

One sidenote, if the Hawks can sign Johnson for a good price, I am more than happy to ’sign-n-trade’. Johnson sees so many minutes and countless ‘isolation’ calls from Woody his value around the league is still high because he puts up numbers.

Seeing we have 1 TNT game and 3 ESPN games this year, time is of the essence.

Joe Johnson is not a number one, and should be be payed as a number one.

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big dave,

Do you SERIOUSLY think that he deserves a raise and a hefty one at that?

Think about the fact that the owners KNOW that revenues will likely be down again this year. And that his teammates have resigned for lower than they hoped because of the state of the economy.

You never answered my question. If he gets max money, but performs like he did this year, do you think all will be well in the locker room?

If you pay him 17+ does it jeopordize re-signing Horford ????

I KNOW you’re a big JJ fan, but would you diminish the rest of the team to see him paid as much as YOU think he’s worth?

I’m hoping that he’ll fall in line with his teammates and take a fair salary that allows flexibility to keep adding needed pieces. At 17+M, I don’t think we’d be so flexible. And you can forget BASG going into Luxury Tax land.

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Bibby took a huge paycut. But lets face it. Bibby’s game is on the decline, and he is 31. JJ is only 28, and he is arguably a top 5 SG. And if Woody knew how to use him correctly, JJ could have even better numbers with less minutes played.

Personally, I would love to see JJ sign a 3 year extension ($45 mil) with 4th year optional. After all, the salary cap will shrink next year, and revenue might be on the decline. I just dont think 3 years, $45-$48 mil will be enough, given the fact that some team might overpay for JJ when they miss out on Wade/Lebron/Bosh etc.

I can see JJ’s agents saying Roy got 5 years, $82 mil, so why can’t JJ get 5 years, $80 mil. And the Hawks cannot afford to lose JJ. After all we gave up for him (2 #1 picks and Boris Diaw), not to mention the ownership battle. All because of JJ. And we’ve come too far to turn back or start over with somebody else.

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Looking at the Hawks schedule in dept. After the 1st 2 home games (Indy and Wiz), the Hawks go on a 3 game west coast trip (LA,Port,SAC) then fly back to Charlotte (with 1 day of rest) for a back to back with the Bobcats and Nuggets at home. Who in the heck make these schedules??? It would be nice if they can finished 5-2 or better….

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I also don’t believe anybody should get a 5 year contract. Anything can happen. I know it’s the nature of the ball game but I wouldn’t do it. Too much bad can happen. Offer him three years max.

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Is Zaza Pachulia good enough to become a Rony Seikaly type of starter at center?

If he is, then maybe it’s worth a try. Maybe we can start him at Center on some nights at least.

I see Al Horford more of a Buck Williams, Charles Oakley, Antonio Davis type of enforcer. Really a Power Forward playing Center at times.

Josh seems to remind me of Xavier McDaniel and Orlando Woolridge tweener, much better than the two though, and with more athleticism and hops of course.

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What the hell ever, man. Just sign the guy.

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Amen, Big Ray. Some folks act like they have to pay the man (and others) out of their own pocket….

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yeah pay him as much as you want. I am not saying its going to hurt me either way. win signing him to max money and getting him more rest still doesn’t improve his playoff performance and all we have to look forward to is regular season joe johnson and you guys want to scream and holla about he isn’t worth what he is getting paid and we can’t trade him and we can’t sign anybody else to help us out because we now found ourselves in the luxury tax “with a financially strapped organization” then you say just sign the guy. amen sign eddy curry to the money he wants cause its what he is worth it and he is the only big free agent who will come visit us.

and yes when those ticket prices go up and i can’t afford to see my regular season joe play like crap in the playoffs it will be out of my pocket.

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“You never answered my question. If he gets max money, but performs like he did this year, do you think all will be well in the locker room?”

first id have to ask you what about Joe’s performance this year do you believe was just horrible…? for a player seeing double and triple teams for most of the 39.5 minutes he is on the floor he still managed to put up 21.4ppg 5.8ast avgs. how selfish do you think our team is Sautee? do you not think his teammates understand what he is asked to do on the floor? the question is who improves around Joe Johnson this year? his locker room should ask what can they do as an individual player to take the burden off of Joe… if he gives at least last years production and his teammates show improve in their individual games we should be hell. you must remember the reason Joe Johnson sees double and triple teams is because he is one of the more lethal 1 on 1 covers in the league…

for yall that continue to ignore our offensive coaching and how it handicaps our performance you’re kiddding yourself. Joe Johnson cant make every pass out of an iso set just because a man for a period of time became open… why arent we constantly open flashing guys… screening to open up teammates. why is our floor spacing horrific.. i dont know…? we cant leave these decisions up to Bibby.. he rarely plays the point anyway… we do the same things every possession up the floor. playoff teams, whom are usually good defensive teams, know whats coming as if they left the huddle. yet, we have a player who never calls out coaches, teammates, etc. or draw negative, attention to himself. get the man signed… represents the Hawk label well and has stupid game. i mean remedial…

though id like Joe for 5 years i only said his contract should be comparable to that of Roy.. at least figure wise…

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I think this is a silly debate. There is no question we should resign Joe. I made comment earlier along what Truth stated above, “Who else are we going to get?” No Joe is not Lebron, Kobe, or Dwade and that is why we are not paying him 120 to 140 million. Paying him 75 to 80 million is a great price for him. The problem going forward is that we have to much money tied up in the backcourt. For this team to take it to another level we have to establish an inside game. That’s why I’m more concerned that we get Al Horford locked up when the time comes. And I’ll say it now, someone is going to have to go. If we can keep it moving til Crawford or Bibby’s deal runs out than it’s all good. If not though we may have to move Marv or somebody. We have been successful these past two years running and gunning with our guard oriented offense, but to get to that next level we need some beasts in the middle. I did not foresee things playing out the way they did this summer. I figured we would lose Marvin and hopefully get some players/picks in return. Anyway, I hope Al and Josh have been working on their inside game. If we can get a post game established, everyone will benefit. It will keep defenses more honest (no more ISO Joe), it will create space for guards to penetrate, and we can be dangerous in the half court as well as fastbreak. Yeah yeah, but first things first get JJ looked up sooner than later.

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nire…

re up on Joe…? and at what ticket?

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Mystical,

I agree that somebody has to go. I vote Marvin.

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Estimated Top 20 players (no order)
Kobe, Lebron, Dwade, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitski, Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson, Steve Nash, Brandon Roy, Chauncey Billups, Chris Bosh, Tony Parker, Amare Stoudamire, Paul Gasol, Kevin Durant

Next five:
Derrick Rose, Carlos Boozer, Danny Granger, Josh Smith, Devin Harris

Out Due to Injury:
Yao Ming (top 15 healthy), Gilbert Arenas, Al Jefferson, Manu Ginobli, T-mac, Jermaine O’neal, Elton Brand, Greg Oden?

Out Due to Age:
Shaq, Ray Allen, Baron Davis,

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big dave,

I will no longer use joe Johnson is tripled and doubled team as an excuse. by now it is his own fault. are you suggesting that the players come up with their own offensive scheme?

If joe johnson is tired its because he chooses to stay on the court, he chooses to accept the double and triple team, and he refuses to defer to his teammates. Do you think when teams are coming up with their defensive schemes Joe Johnson is in the top five? nope Kobe, lebron, carmelo, roy, dwight,wade, and nowtziki to name a few. You want to know why those names don’t come to mind when you say getting tired in the playoffs underperforming for example? Because they know what it takes to get there and have energy they wouldn’t let a coach run them into the ground and they know the double and triple team is counterproductive.

Whateva wear and tear Joe has accumulated over the past two years is his own fault he has had the help he is just a quiet un assuming ball hog.

Roy didn’t look tired, Kobe didn’t look tired and he had been playing for two years straight, Lebron has been playing about the same and he does more running more jumping and more falling then joe has done in his whole life and he doesn’t seemed to be excaberated come playoff time. and i can guarantee even with the injuries to our squad lebron is not loosing to the magic if him and joe johnson switch places. (okay the last part is a reach)

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Mystikal i cannot believe that you have greg oden i you best players in the nba list he averaged 9 points for god’s sake i think you should put jameer nelson and rashard lewis, vince carter, bynum, Andre Eguadala (spell check) and even odom for the matter before you put oden on the list p.s the hawks suck the are not going to be able to hold there own with the new and improved east they are lucky if they come in 5 and loose in the second round….

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I think that this team’s plan has to be to get bosh in 2010. That’s the list. They sign JJ, they must have the flexibility to move him. They get Bosh, and they can win big.

If I am wrong, and Big Baby signs a one year deal with Boston, the Hawks must get him in 2010 if they don’t land Bosh. Then they keep JJ.

JJ will make key plays on offense, but not on defense or the boards, nor in the open court, not the way a big money 2/3 needs to. Big money 2/3s play the open court better, get key boards, the odd type ones that the other team should get but don’t because of them, make key steals, and run the court with the ball and finish in ways that JJ don’t.

Bosh can compete with the best of the bigs, especially with Al beside him. He is the target.

The Lakers will not repeat because Gasol can not sustain the physical level of play he put out last year. He is not built for it, and his body will break down. He will either sustain a season-ender or will be plagued with various and sundry injuries. You will not see the Gasol of the playoffs again, perhaps ever but definitely not throughout next season. Bynum’s knee is a problem that won’t quit. Phil got everything out of his team last year in a way he never has before. I fear he did so at Gasol’s expense. I hope I am wrong, but Phil I believe, if Gasol goes down bad, is completely to blame.

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bosh cannot hold his own against the good bigs in the league the guy is a power foward not a center just like AL bosh is very thin and not a dominant big but a jump shooting big and no way will he ever want to come to the hawks

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Yes!! I love the idea of keepin JJ for alot more years to come.. Do all us hawks fans remember tha years b4 Joe Johnson u kno thas one wit Shareef abdur-rahim , jason terry ,al harrington, Rasheed Wallace and the year we could had Pau Gasol in the draft (which we traded tha pick 4 shareef) etc….. Joe Johnson was the best to come to tha hawks since i hate to say but Dominqie Wilkins. Why Would tha Hawks even consider lettin him go.. We already kno the big name free agents next year that everyone has on there wish list aint comin to Alanta.. So lets get ahead of the league by lockin up one of tha best players in tha league and keepin riding this ship til it sinks i sure dont wanna be wishin we was in tha playoffs Ive had to much fun watchin tha hawks play in them !! GO HAWKS!!!!

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truth-serum should never be able to post here again for such a racist comment about Sekou or anybody for that matter. You a tasteless person for such an act. Is you mother still partnered with Billy Ocean as the opening act for the New Edition comeback tour.

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Simply put joe johnson at 75 mil for 5 years is a good contract. It will not tie up this team financially, and is essential if we are to continue to be a playoff contender.

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I just get tired of arguing the numbers, is all. Sign the man. Don’t make it a crazy, franchise-crippling contract, but sign the man. You can always trade him later if you feel you must. It’s asset management.

A five year contract does scare me. A three year makes me feel better. I’m not precocious enough to assume that JJ wouldn’t accept a 3 year contract (hey, it gives him options as well as the team), or that he’s guaranteed to get 5 years and $80 million from somebody else.

What I like least is that it would seem that as long as he’s here, we run a “pyramid style” offense, where he’s at the top of the pyramid, and most everybody else is somewhere near the base. JJ is the best player on this team, but as Samuel has noted, he’s not the kind of franchise player that you can simply add a series of limited role players to, and come up with a title contender. Hell, the playoffs have shown us that you can’t even do that with the top players in the business. Kobe is the ish and all that, and Odom is the ultimate role player, but Gasol is a real all-star in his own right.

Lebron found out quickly that just being Lebron isn’t good enough. Even all-star level pg Mo Williams wasn’t enough help. Duncan plays next to one of the best PGs in the game, on the most disciplined team in the League. Hard to win without his fellow all-star level super-sub SG, or a suitable designated helper in the paint.

Yet we have talent in the 3, 4, and 5 spots…but we still run this pyramid offense where it’s JJ 1st, 2nd, and sometimes 3rd. Yet he does not produce what other guys in his “position” produce. By that I mean he’s the top dog here. But he’s not producing like other top dogs.

I, too get tired of hearing about the double and triple teams, and the fatigue. I don’t see how JJ could be any more tired than Wade was. Look what Wade had to work with all year long (and he played about 1 minute per game less all year, if even that): a rookie head coach, a rookie pg, a patchwork lineup that includes an oft-uninspired, has-been, half-crippled PF/C. Yet he performed like a true star in the playoffs, and that team damn near took us out in the 1st round.

Love JJ. Love his game (mostly). But 5/$80 mil? In these trying economic times, it’s hard to see where he gets a raise, particularly after performing worse than ever on a team that has been better than ever.

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Kwooden1 ,

I understand what you’re saying, but those contracts weren’t signed this year, were they? No, those guys were signed to those lucrative contracts BEFORE the economy began a serious downturn. Would anybody be willing to sign Arenas NOW, to the contract he signed before he decided to get surgery done? Doubt it. Most of those 24 guys were signed well before all of this happened.

As for JJ vs. Wade…..man, be real. Wade just decided to “take a year off?” I suppose all the reports of injuries were all a lie. Hell, if he can take a year off, come back and score damn near 30 a game ALL SEASON LONG, then maybe JJ should “take a year off.” Not only would he come back completely rejuvenated, but our team might actually learn to play…..like a team.

Hey, I have an idea. Let’s sign him to a 5 yr/ $80 million contract. Give him the first year off. When Wade came back from HIS year off, he averaged 29.1 ppg, 5 rebounds, 5.3 assists, and did it on 49.1% shooting, at 38.6 mpg. Since we know Joe isn’t Wade, let’s lower the numbers for him. When he comes back from HIS year off, he should average 25ppg, 5 boards, 5 assists, and do it on 45% shooting, with a maximum of 37mpg.

If not, trade his ass. How’s that sound?

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Daniel ,

5 years and $75 million shouldn’t tie up this team financially. But that would depend on what the owners are willing to spend, now wouldn’t it? Since the ASG came into the picture, this team has spent plenty of cash on it’s guards, and very little on it’s forwards and centers. Josh Smith is the lone exception to that (I don’t count Al Harrington because he wasn’t here very long, and we just let him walk as a FA), and we didn’t even come up with that contract ourselves. It was a force du jour.

People laugh when you mention ownership in connection to spending on a big man, but history speaks for itself.

Kwooden1 ,

Seriously, let’s just do it. Hey, we traded for Crawford, so we have a SG who can play in JJ’s place while he’s off getting rejuvenated. All we have to do then is re-sign Flip as a backup and get Astro Joe a pass-first pg who won’t actually get to play (you no shoot, you no play). I’m sure Crawford can raise his shooting percentage from 40% to JJ’s level and 43%, and just think: Teague will get some early real-game time development.

All that and JJ can enjoy a year off from work like Wade did. But I’ll be expecting the aforementioned results when he gets back. Or he’s outta here.

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Melvin,

I’m all for signing him. Sign him and either he plays for you, or you can trade him down the road if you feel it works out for the best. That’s why I was so hot about getting Smith signed last summer. You have to keep the asset, not lose it.

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And 5 yrs/$80 million is NOT a $1 million/year raise. It’s a $2 million a year raise….. His current contract iss 5 yrs/$70 million. Just a minor quibble.

But hey, Crawford makes 1 million more a year than Speedy and Acie did, and that’s killing our ability to sign a veteran big. Just imagine if JJ gets 2 million more a year. Oh calamity, death, destruction, and chaos. Heh….

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Big Ray,
I was referring to his upcoming season salary which is almost $15 mil…

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Ray,

Roy’s extension doesn’t kick in until 2010, after which Darius Miles’s contract will be off the books. This summer they had the money to sign Miller because LaFrentz’s contract came off the books.

This year was the first time they paid the tax in 5 years, and it was only because of the Darius Miles debacle – I’m sure you remember how the Blazers went into conniptions and threatened to sue any team that let Miles play. The reason was simple – they didn’t want to have to pay the tax that would come along with that.

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Wade, Kobe, Lebron… they arent comparable to Joe…

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http://bleacherreport.com/articles/231157-inside-the-mind-of-atlanta-hawks-all-star-guard-joe-johnson

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Melvin,

I gotcha. I was looking at the contract itself, not the last year thereof. My bad.

Truth,

I’m truly not worried about it. I’m just tired of contracts and crap already. And I’m making fun of everything I can get my hands on. I need a vacation. 5 and 80 is not a killer as long as this organization is willing to pay to keep a good product on the floor. They can’t keep spending like crazy on guards while being as tight as Dick’s hatband when it comes to the frontcourt. Horford’s up next, and we still haven’t paid Marvin, though that should be done any day now….I think. JJ’s gonna get a raise whether anybody likes it or not. I just hope he can play like he’s worth it.

Seriously, we COULD give him a year off….

Niremetal,

My comments on the Blazers and how much they were paying was anything but a fact finding mission. Don’t you know it’s spitball hour? I was aiming at Joe and you got in the way. Dammit, spitball hour is almost over and you cost me my best shot of the day.

Astro Joe,

Cooler than Freddie Jackson sippin’ on a milkshake. Even cooler if we can keep it that way. And I didn’t know he was Mr. Apple. Damn, where do these computer nerds keep coming from? Next thing you know, Mr. Microsoft will get himself an NBA team. But will he be more like Mr. Apple, or more like Mr. Cuban?

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To lay out the article that True Hawks Fan just gave us a link to:

Jack Bender (Scribe) Written on August 05, 2009

…I might tell my agent that Dwayne Wade and Lebron are going to re-sign with their teams. Kobe is going to stay with the Lakers. Chris Bosh will leave Toronto, but he is going to Miami or Cleveland for less money to play with one of these other stars. The summer of 2010 might end up being the summer of Joe Johnson.

Interesting collection of thoughts, and every single one of them has been voiced by people on this blog.

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Astro Joe,

Hell, I didn’t know either way, so you got me. Dang, his cable company is in bankrupty? Maybe all those sill-but-funny DirecTV commercials are a true depiction of how cable companies think, after all. Heh heh heh!

Bankruptcy never stopped Donald Trump. No sympathy for Mr. Co-Microsoft from me….

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If that is how Joe Johnson is thinking then he can leave, but not before i get something in return.

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good list Mystikal- just to quibble with you. I don’t know that I would put Ray Allen on the age list just yet. Although you may be right. I think Devin Harris is closer to top 20 and Amare Stoudemire is less than. You have to remember his injuries both to his knee and eyes.

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Truth,

This is what I said: “Interesting collection of thoughts, and every single one of them has been voiced by people on this blog.”

Translation: This guy didn’t say anything we haven’t brought up on this blog already. Sounds to me like you are repeating what I just said.

By the way, I’m not keen on laying this “drama” solely at Sund’s feet. He is the GM, so he gets to take the heat for anything that’s done, but I contend that the budget is set by his bosses. As much as that gets said, I think people fail to realize that this places more limitations on what can be done than is obvious. This team is and has been built around guards first and foremost. Billy drafted a bunch of forwards, yeah. But the money has been spent on guards for the most part. Seriously, compare what we’ve spent on guards in free agency vs what we’ve spent on forwards/centers. And this has spanned over the course of two different GMs. Take it for what it is….

Realsquawk,

Heard that. This is why I say “signing” him is important. Not necessarily “keeping” him. Asset management comes first. The gooey, fluffy, sentimental feelings have to take a back seat, in my opinion.

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there’s still some haters out there so who exactly will replace Joe? there’s on 5 people in the league that are upgrades and 2 r contracted for sure.the only way u upgrade the team and loose him at the same time is loosing depth somewhere else.

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Mystikal,

I agree that some changes have to be made, but seriously….where are these numerous opportunities that our frontcourt players have been getting, that they keep shying away from? Which Hawks have YOU been watching? Josh TAKES more opportunities than he’s given, and I agree that Marvin lacks the aggression we want from him.

But too many times I’ve see Horford or Williams (or even Smith) go 3 for 4, 4 for 6, or 5 for 7 in the first quarter or half….only to turn around watch them get very few looks in the second half, while the guards bomb away. It’s not an defensive adjustment by the opposing team. It’s not a “feeling out of what to do” on the part of the frontcourt players (or else they wouldn’t have performed so well in the first half). It’s something else. You know what it is.

Funny how you say Josh needs to expand his game. I sure hope he doesn’t read any of these blogs, because people can NOT make up their minds what he needs to do. We say he needs to expand his game, but we don’t want him learning to shoot jumpers better. We say he doesn’t have the discipline to get better at shooting from the perimeter, but we swear we want him on the block. We say we want him scoring on the block, but he’s tying up the whole frontcourt. If he scores on the block, we’ll say all he can do is jump and dunk. He’s not a 3, but he’s not a 4. He’s keeping Al Horford from playing his true spot.

Damn, just trade the man already. I agree that he needs to be consistent, but I’m sick of him being labeled as THE problem.

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Big Ray- I agree with you for the most part. Totally forgot about Baron. What about Arenas? (out do to injury?) or really not that good?
I will go with NJ over OKC. I honestly think Durant is a little overhyped. His scoring numbers are great on a team where he is the only option and other teams are beating them so bad they usually don’t care. I call them empty points. But we will see.

Also, I have become less critical of the ASG spending over the last year and a half. I don’t think they are going on the cheap. They are even spending money on the Thrashers. I think Sund is just being astute.
I dunno would you give Joe Smith a 2 year deal worth 7-8 mil?
I actually think I would, but it is clearly not a no brainer.
Now, Marvin at 40 over 5 is a no brainer(if you believe the back is fine) and Joe at 75 over 5 is a no brainer.

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Big Ray- Josh needs to play on the block, and don’t lead the break, he can take 3-4 3’s a game, and play great defense. Anything anyone else says he needs to do is foolish.

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Alright Gerald Green is still out there. Give him the minimum to back up Marvin… I like Joe but I don’t think I would give him a 5 year deal. He has been injured for 3 straight years from the way he is used here. I don’t see that changing at all so offer him a 3 year deal with an option for the fourth year like Anakin suggested.

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I don’t think that I saw Rashard Lewis on the lists either. And he just received a massive contract last summer (or maybe two summers ago). Not that I am disagreeing, I don’t personally view him as a “difference-maker”. But just in terms of market-value and some recent contracts… Lewis is making stupid money for being a 6′10″ 3-point shooter.

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Big Ray,

I wouldn’t mind trading Josh Smith. I think if we did we wouldn’t keep running into the same problems. Believe it or not I like Josh, but as you said can’t figure how to maximize him. You’re right, the jump shot is not going to happen. I cringe at him trying to do more ball handling. And even being a great help defender, he isn’t so good one on one or on the perimeter. So with that I wouldn’t mind trading him. I don’t think we’ve seen what Horford can truly do and don’t believe we will with him at the five. I’d say as a center he is above average, but as a PF he could be tops in the league. And I know there isn’t a big supply of centers, but i’m not looking for a superstar. Joel Priscibila(can’t spell), Marcus Camby, guys of that caliber would be fine. Mainly just someone to take up space and get some rebounds. Know it all would be difficult to do at this point with all the transactions that have been made, not to mention wrisking everything we’ve accomplished the past few years, but I don’t see us breaking into that top tier as is.

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AJ, i thought it was all about the winning those games during the season as well not to forget the young studs from portland made the lakers work for their wins. btw which team won more games the past two seasons and do you expect the trend to change?

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Sekou, so what’s the deal on Marvin? You had previously suggested it may happen this week. Is that still the case (even with Sund out visiting Roscoe’s Chicken & Waffles)?

Why do I have a feeling that Marvin and Roddy White are somewhere charging their cell phones while hoping for their phone to ring?

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doc, Portland lost to Houston in the 1st round (despite owning home court advantage). It was Houston that hung tough with the Lakers, Blazers had already gone fishing.

In terms of the future, I think that they will continue to win regular season games at a higher rate. But if they don’t get tougher, I’m not sure that they will enjoy their playoff experiences. A lot depends on Oden and his ability to grow into an impact player.

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Ditto Melvin…… we would be watching the playoffs from home if not for JJ and these fools cry’n about a 1 mill a year pay raise….. The man has earned it Pay up or go back to the bottom of the EC.

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Good question Anakin Joe, we all want to know. What is Sund doing in California besides meeting with Joe Johnson? Is he on vacation?

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Mystikal, I think you need to add a spot for Rudy Gay. Maybe he should be in the next 5. I would take him over Danny Granger.

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The questoin is not whether the Hawks should sign Joe Johnson to a contract extension. The question is should Joe Johnson accept a contract extension from the Hawks.

Regardless of his shotrt-comings, and all players have them, Joe Johnson is an All-Star caliber guard and $15M per year is not too much to pay an All-Star caliber guard. But look at it from his standpoint. As an unrestricted free agent, he could go to teams with true championship contenders like Cleveland and play with LeBron (who’s staying in Cleveland) and Shaq; or he could go to San Antonio where he could play with Duncan, Parker and Jefferson while having Ginobili coming off the bench to keep his minutes dowin; or he could even go back to Boston, where his NBA career started, to replace Ray Allen (who’ll be 35 and an unrestricted free agent at the end of next season). He’ll also draw interest from playoff teams like Denver, Dallas, Houston and New Orleans (remember how he talked about playing with CP3) among others; who would love to add an All-Star caliber guard to their roster.

Then, Hawk fans, think about how much farther away from championship the Hawks would be were Johnson to leave.

Yes, the Hawks will bring back 7 of the 8 guys who received most of the playing time last season. And yes, obtaining Jamal Crawford improves the talent in the backcourt; being obviously better than the guys for whom he was traded. His presence and talents should allow Coach Woodson to reduce the minutes played by Bibby and Johnson without reducing the team’s ability to score.

But, they have taken no actions, thus far, to address thier primary weaknesses–lack of a “go-to” low post presence that can command a double-team and give open shots to the perimeter players and a serious lack of depth in the frontcourt. While I will miss Solomon Jones, I don’t believe that re-signing him would have truly addressed either weakness. Seeing what others have done and what your team has and hasn’t done, would you re-sign with this team if you were Joe Johnson? In fact, before you re-upped, wouldn’t you want to see this team do more, such as adding players, to truly compete for a championship?

A quick tangent–someone mentioned players in the context of asset management and clearly Sund’s job of asset management will never be tested more than it will be next season. IF you re-sign Marvin to a long-term deal (and you should), and IF you re-sign Johnson (and you should), then what do you do with Crawford, Evans and Childress knowing you can’t afford to keep all three?

Since I’m a results oriented type of guy, here what I suggest:

1) re-sign Flip Murray but go with a 14 man roster this year.

2) seriously consider trading Crawford to New Jersey for Trenton Hassell, Josh Boone and Eduardo Najera before the trading deadline but only pull the trigger on that deal if you can pull off another trade just before the deadline. That trade would be:

3) trade Josh Smith and Maurice Evans to Phoenix for a healthy Amare Stoudemire, who is signed to a contract extension before the trade is consummated. Stoudemire is a proven All-Star is and is someone who can address your number one weakness-scoring and commanding a double-team from the low post, while also filling a lane on the fast break almost as well as Smith does.

Stoudemire replaces Smith in the starting line-up, Boone and Najera would join Zaza Pachulia to give you frontcourt depth behind Stoudamire and Horford while Murray, Hassell, Jeff Teague and Mario West can take the minutes Crawford and Evans would normally play.

4) for the 2010 season, draft a SG for depth, bring back Childress and re-sign Boone.

I think making these three moves before the trading deadline would show Johnson that this team is serious about competing for a championship and convince him to re-sign. The fourth moves further legitimize your championship aspirations The Hawks would go into 2010 season with Bibby or Teague, Johnson, Williams, Stoudemire and Horford as the starters with Pachulia, Boone, Najera, Childress, Murray, Teague or Bibby, and your 2010 first round draft choice on the bench as your twelve (with choosing 2 guys from the likes of Morris, Siler, Hassell, West, Othello Hunter, etc. to complete your 14 man roster a task that shouldn’t be too difficult) and a much better shot at winning a title.

For the record, I’m not hating on Josh Smith and for a long time, didn’t think he should be traded for any reason. But the more I’ve thought about, I’ve come to the realization that this could be in everyone’s best interest IF, and only IF, Stoudemire is truly healthy and re-signed to a contract extension before the deal is done!

In any trade, I think you have to give up quality to if you want to get quality. To me, it seems that Smith prefers to be a Rasheed Wallace-type of PF; one who can score from the post but also steps out to the 3-point line to shoot the jumper. And while there’s absolutely nothing wrong with aspiring to have that type of versatility in your game as a PF, that is not the type of forward that the Hawks need. The Hawks need someone to consistently play offense in the post area and score with so much effectiveness that he can command a double-team. SinceAl Horford and Zaza Pachulia are more “bangers” than finished offensive products, then that low-post production needs to come from their PF.

Many posters have commented about Coach Woodson’s offense consisting of not much more than giving Joe Johnson the ball and telling him to do something. Well, being able to consistently pass the ball to Stoudemire and allow him to go one-on-one in the low-post opens up scoring opportunites for everyone else because he will pass when double-teamed. No, Stoudemire won’t run down players on the break and block their shot and he is not the weak side shot-blocking presence in the half-court that Josh Smith is but he’s not too shabby when it comes to weak- side shot-blocking and he is a better defensive rebounder than Smith.

But let’s look at it from the other side of the coin, Phoenix wants to be a running team and play in an up-tempo system. Shawn Marion was a very productive player–and an All-Star–in that system. Well, Smith is bigger, younger and just as athletic, if not more so, than Marion was when Marion played in Phoenix. With a PG like Nash and an offensive style that better suites his skills, Smith could quite possibly, like Marion, become an All-Star; something he may never achieve in Atlanta based upon the style of basketball the Hawks will play under Coach Woodson. And, since there is nothing that suggests that Coach Woodson won’t continue to coach the Hawks (to the dismay of many on this blog) or that the team’s syle of play will change at any time in the future, it may be best for everyone involved for the teams to make this trade.

Believe me when I say that I’m not hating on Josh at all, just thinking that since Stoudemire wants to be in a system where he can be “the man”, has played, and won, with Joe Johnson in the past and would become the main man in Atlanta instead of the number 2 guy (behind Nash) in Phoenix; and since Phoenix may not be willing to pay what it will take to keep Stoudemire in Phoenix because of the owner’s “thriftiness” and might would rather trade him for a less expensive, Shawn Marion-type of PF than to risk losing him without compensation; and since Atlanta desperately needs the low-post offensive presence that Stoudemire brings to take pressure off of Johnson and make their offense more efective; and since Smith might fulfill the potential so many see him by getting into a system that takes better advantage of the talents he brings to the floor and could truly blossom with a change of scenery; IMO, this could truly be one of those trades that helps both teams become more successful and isn’t that the only good reason for making a trade–and wasn’t that a long sentence!

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Sekou- thanks for the updates!!! Why is everyone in Hollywood?
Good job Sund, the contract makes sense.
Now onto the Joes…..

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Hey Sekou, what are the incentives? based on minutes played or production or team goals?

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Are there rules about how a salary is scaled? Marvin agreed to 5 years and $37.5M… which means that his salary next year could be $5.5M and increase by $1M over each year to get to a total of $37.5M. If that is the salary distribution, then Sund should have PLENTY of room to sign Joe Smith. But I’m not sure if there are rules about annual increases.

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Anakin joe- I believe it is how the contract is structured, but even at 7.5 milion the Hawks have the full MLE and BYT to spend. Joe Smith won’t need 6 mil to sign, if he does then go blow. I think the issue with Smith is not the amount but the length.

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Anakin,

Or it could be 7.5 mil per year…

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It looks like Marvin made around $5.6 last season, so he probably is NOT going to take a slight pay cut. Unless the incentives are super easy to meet (like play a minimum of 50 games).

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Manny T, Nire (and other cap experts),

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if we resign JJ at $16 mil, and With Marvin signed at $7.5 mil per, for the 2010-11 season, Our salary will be close to $66 mil (for only 9 guys). Plus they will have to sign at least 4 more guys.

With the projected lower salary and lower luxury threshold, lets hope the ASG is willing to spend the money needed on these Hawks. (Although the hockey fans will tell you that the ASG dont spend money on the Thrashers).

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Obrien,
I’m sure the Hawks fans don’t need a lecture from the Trashers fans about how cheap the BASG are… I know, I know, Nire is going to get me…lol

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O’Brien, I’ve been talking AD NAUSEUM (as I’m sure some would say) that we are locked in for the next two years unless we trade someone for an expiring contract before the February deadline. We potentially had $7M expiring next summer but we dealt that for another asset whose contract does not expire next year.

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And I disagree about the ASG and budget. It appears that we will start the season with a budget that will likely put us a few dollars under the luxury tax threshold. That should be plenty of money to do some very nice grocery shopping. I see this now like I see the Braves. Their budget is sufficient to field a postseason contending team. But if the GM decides to spend less than $8M on his entire outfield, then he shouldn’t be shocked when they are one of the less productive units in baseball. That was a choice, not an issue of a poorly funded payroll. I find it hard to argue that $64M is insufficient to construct a balanced team. Not necessarily a championship team… but certainly a balanced one.

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Sekou done start something with this blog. Folks talking crazy.

At this time, Joe is the cornerstone of the Hawks franchise. Not upping his deal now as Sund is trying to do will be basketball suicide. Just as recently mentioned, Joe might NOT want to extend. He might want to play his year out and see what else is out there for him. Personally, I believe Joe likes being a Hawk and will remain one.

And we are vastly underestimating the Crawford acquisition. With Jamal aboard, Joe can get extended rest without there being a major drop in scoring as in years past, meaning less chances of Joe getting injured towards the season end and hobbling into the playoffs.

Joe deserves 5/80 mil, since he gets no endorsements, but just like Marvin’s contract, it should have a strong incentive structure to maximize his skills. Structures like if he makes the All Star, like he gets a bonus with every extra point that he ups his scoring %, a bonus if he averages 7 assists all season, bonus on numbers of rebounds he gets, you get my drift. That will make Joe a better player overall, one that will trust his teammates more.

Then again, looking at the masterful way Sund negotiated Bibby, Zaza and now Marvin’s contract, does anybody really expect him to go overboard with Joe’s?

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Rod,

I’m with ya. I want to see more out of Marvin myself. Heck, I would be happy if he could match Josh numbers….

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Ray

With the absence of hard facts regarding our current stalemate, all speculation has merit. Other then the Hawks inter-circle, no one can say for certainty what’s going on. Having said that, I tend to read actions and/or inactions and follow the money trail or lack thereof. Last year the Hawks salaries at full roster were about 69M. This year the current roster salaries stands at about 54M and that includes Marvin and West qualifying offers and the new contracts with Bibby and Zaza. Yes they do have to fill the roster out with some additional role players like Siler and perhaps Hunter and others, but those will be min salaries with little impact. Relatively speaking, they clearly have the money to make a competitive offer to another FA before drafting into luxury tax land if they so choose. If you believe this is all about money and Sund has a directive to take a budget haircut compared to last year down to where he can only offer peanuts to another FA, then your point is valid, it is the bosses’ drama. However, if the directive to Sund is to just stay away from luxury tax land, then this is Sund’s drama. Negotiation is part experience but mostly an art. Some people have it and some people don’t. It has been documented from Chill’s own mouth about how the negotiation style of Sund turned him off so it is not a wild idea to think to the contrary. At the end on the day, the truth will come to light. Maybe this will end in a positive way, I hope so. Until then, all we can do is speculate.

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aj, my bad. thanks.

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Rashard Lewis, all star, $16.4 mil. 2009 stats:

79g 36:12mn 43.9fg% 39.7 3pt% 83.6ft% 5.7reb 2.6a 2.0to 1.0s 0.7b 17.7ppg

Marvin $7.5mil:

61g 34:17min 45.8fg% 35.5 3pt% 80.6ft% 6.3r 1.3a 1.2to 0.9s 0.6b 13.9ppg

Hawks got a deal with Marvin, and Marvin is young enough to still have another big signing day ahead of him, if things work right.

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I wonder how Marvin’s 6.5M incentive package works? Does it affects this year roster salary. This could become a sticky situation when considering adding another FA.

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Ray,

Ha – I don’t presume to know exactly how many double teams each player actually gets, and shouldn’t have stated my opinion like it was fact. I’ll try again.

Based on my observations from League Pass last year, JJ seemed to get more than anyone but LeBron and Kobe. Also, JJ tends to get “hard” double teams where they close in the SECOND he gets the ball because he has such a quick release and accurate jumper – they don’t cheat and do a “soft” double like LeBron, Wade, Anthony, and other guys who aren’t as accurate from deep get. Kobe is a special case. Thanks to the triangle, teams HAD to cheat when they doubled Kobe or else they’ll get burned by Fisher, Vujacic, or Ariza. There’s usually one guy playing Kobe close on the double, and the other cheating off a bit. Some teams mix it up, though…I remember the Suns used a hard double and it worked ok. The Magic seemed to prefer hard doubling, and that didn’t work out so well.

The hard double used to be effective on Kobe, but it doesn’t seem to work anymore. Why? Because Kobe used to try to do everything himself. Now he doesn’t. Now he’ll pass it if there’s a man open, and thanks to the Triangle, there almost always is someone open and in a good position to shoot when Kobe gets doubled. That means that hard double teams more often lead to wide open threes by Kobe’s teammates rather than off-balance jumpers by Kobe. Gee, think JJ and Woody could take note?

The only player other than Kobe/LeBron/JJ that I saw get double teams THAT consistently was Kevin Durant. And those were “hard” double teams too. Not too difficult to figure out why.

PS – I’m also just talking about perimeter players here. It’s a totally different ballgame when you’re talking about post players, since “doubling down” is something that most teams do even to mediocre scorers if they get the ball close to the basket.

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As for JJ playing on the bad foot, it is what it is. There’s two sides to how you view it.

The first way to look at it is the way you seem to – he should have benched himself or Woody should have benched him, and let him rest until he was healed. The other view, and the one the Hawks apparently took, is that the Hawks were better off playing JJ hurt but keeping his injury under wraps. That way, teams would still gameplan as if they were playing against a healthy JJ, but JJ would act as more of a facilitator than a scorer most days.

The argument for the first option is that the Hawks might have had a healthy JJ come playoff time. The argument for the second is that the Hawks might not have held home court in the first round if they benched JJ – especially once Marvin got hurt. As I’ve said, I don’t think the Hawks or anyone else can make the playoffs if Josh Smith is their #1 scoring option. Bench JJ with Marvin out, and the Hawks would have had a very tough time coming up with buckets. We might have slid to 6th in the standings and drawn a much less favorable first round matchup.

Also, we still don’t know what type of injury it was. It might have been something that needed a good 2 months of solid rest to totally heal (not unlike Bibby’s thumb injury a year ago).

In any case, I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer on what to do in that situation. But I respect guys who at least try to play through pain. In my view, it’s the coach’s job to weigh the positives and negatives of playing. Better that than have a guy like Tracy McGrady, who apparently decides on when he’s healthy enough to play or not play without consulting his team…

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this might sound crazy, but it isn’t and it might be late, but I must say if I could trade durant for johnson straight up I am doing it.

when did we all of a sudden need to take into account upping a players salary because of his lack of endorsements. That type of talk must stop. the type of endorsements a player gets is completely out of the teams control. if he wants endorsements tell him to start tweeting, start dunking, and to show some emotion and then maybe we will won’t see 2 seconds of him on a jordan commercial.

what type of foolishness is this. i am going to pay you more because you don’t know to properly market yourself like half of the nba.

Again it is a lot easier and a lot more effective to fire and sign a new head coach then it is to trade a player. It’s a full proof plan you fire a coach sign one that has a system thought up to utilize your teams strength. when you trade player you loose an asset you spent money on in return for either draft picks whose positions can be protected and its returned extremely unproven

or for a player who you do not know anything about except for rumors and the four times you play them on the court.

So when you have a team full of young players where no analyst in the league has said he will be no better than he is right now or he is overachieving or anything to let you know he is playing to his full ability then you find a coach who can achieve that for you instead of trading a player and having it blow up in your face.

you get rid of woody and whats the worst that could happen he signs with the grizzlies and in 4 years they make the playoffs and get to the third round. or and this is a much more damaging result; you fire woody and the new coach no longer runs the iso joe, which i will repeat joe seems to love so much and i will repeat joe seems to want to so much and

then joe decides to leave or he demands a trade. Well you know what if joe is the one holding reigns to our offensive scheme, which he is, make no mistake about it if joe said we need more movement then their would be more movement or no more woody,

but joe wants the ball and he wants the shots. and if joe isn’t ready to change then I am more than willing to move on without him no matter what the result.

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Realsquawk,

You’re are absolutely right. JJ really plays selfish. He may not be that way at all but his mannerisms come across that way. He knows that Woody made him.

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Would JJ be where he is today if he was anywhere else? Hum……….

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We need to keep the veteran J.J. Hawks finally trying to spend some cash.

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Heh…look at how I’m talking to. Shouldn’t have wasted the ink…

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Was he an Allstar and Olympian?

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JJ ain’t signing a penny bellow Roy. He could even take it as an insult if he gets low balled.

I say pull a Tim Dunkin on him. Pop handed in TD a max contract to sign, and then gave an elaborate detailed presentation on how accepting a lower salary would help the team sign key free agents, and give them a higher probability of winning championships. Of course TD took the lower salary.

Do you think this would work with JJ? He already has more money than many small countries. This was Roy’s first big contract.

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How is signing below Roy being low balled?

I think, even with considerably less experience, and several younger, most would probably vote that Roy is better. Close, but a slight edge to Roy. Definitely more clutch.

Seems so far, whomever is negotiating for Atlanta(presumably Sund), has been able to convince a sense of reasonableness for all concerned. Hopefully that will continue with Joe.

Signing for slightly less than Roy could still be a raise for Joe, raising his GDP to more than twice that of the third world.

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Isn’t it amazing how certain fans want to solve all of our perceived problems by getting rid of every one of our starters except AHorford? These clueless fans continuely place all of the blame for the teams problems squarely on the shoulders of the players while giving Woodson a pass.

Why don’t we consider the following before trying to dismantle the team in an futile attempt at getting better.

(1) What if we established an identity by committing to an uptempo OFF as our primary method of scoring? Force teams to matchup to our speed, quickness and athleticm instead of continuing to try matching up to other their size, height and halfcourt expertise.

(2) Expand our basic rotation from 8 to 9 by decreasing the mins of each starter by at least 3-4mins each, which would create an extra 15-20mins. Crawfprdd would get Flips mins, Teague would get ALaw’s 10MPG plus 5-7 additional mins, without having any DNP’s next to his name. RMorris and or Siler should get Solo’s 10-12MPG, but without DNP next to their names as well.

(3) What if we expand our OFF to include back picks and cuts to take advantage of our athleticism by using lobs?

(4) What if we relied less on our current switching halfcourt DEF and played more pressure and trapping DEF.

Now, is there anyone out there who thinks there’s a player available that can have a greater impact on our team than these suggestions? And who do you think would be responsible for implimenting these suggestions, or deciding not to?

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Truth,

I understand what you’re saying. No, it’s not a wild idea to think that this is Sund’s drama. But it’s not a wild idea to think there’s more to it than just him. Why ignore what is such an obvious issue with this team? Why would a guy who is KNOWN for handing out contracts to big men (bad contracts even) suddenly gun shy in that area?

Sund attempted a trade of Speedy and some other filler for Chris Kaman last year. The Clippers were going for it, as they needed the cash space something fierce. It got nixed. No, I can’t prove that this is how the whole thing went down, but that was the gist of it that I got. Yes, we clearly have enough money to make a decent offer to a free agent. So why aren’t we? So Sund can engineer some drama? I’m not buying it.

I read all that Childress had to say. And I railed against that situation for a long time (still don’t like it). But I’m over that. So Chills didn’t like Sund’s tactics. I didn’t particularly like the Josh Smith situation either, but that doesn’t count. Why? Because Smith was offered a contract before Sund ever came, and he turned it down. Sund matched the offer he got very quickly. How about Bibby and Zaza? Think they have complaints? Marvin hasn’t had any gripes. And if things go well with Joe, then I’d say Sund’s tactics are working just fine.

But making offers to free agent bigs. Something is just not adding up here.

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Ray,

I’m a fan of Josh Smith too, but I think he would be the easiest one to move if we could get a starting center (shift Horford to PF) and another valuable piece. I just dont know if such a deal is out there.

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From a few blogs ago:

Doug, Based on the stats, Flip is a better defender.

Also, just because Jamal Crawford gets to the line more than Flip doesn’t mean he attacks the basket more. Jamal gets half of his fouls in the riskyist(especially in crunch time) way possible, off his jumpshots. Yes he’s good at drawing fouls whie in the act of shooting, but do you honestly think him getting the madjority of his fouls that way is a good thing? Do you know how many people try to draw fouls in the act of shooting at the end of games only to be dissapointed because the refs swallow their whistles? That’s not to say that Craford doesn’t take it to the rack, he does. I’m just pointing out where a lot of his trips to the FT line come from. It may or may not be beneficial to us next season. We’ll just have to see how it plays out.

…and YES FLIP MURRAY is a paint junkie. I can’t find the offical stat but i’m willing to bet that like Childress, around 50% of his shots come from 0-15ft. He may not get fouled as much as Crawford buy that doesn’t stop the guy from attacking the basket….and he does it early and often.

I do agree that Crawford is a more potent scorer…..but we’ll see how that works out when he inherits Flips minutes next season(25mpg AVG).

Again, I’m pro-crawford. I just beleive Flip deserves more credit that you’re giving him for his services on this team last season.

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……extending JJ and keeping our roster intact for 210 could possibly draw a UFA to come here because of whats already in place…

Looks like we can put that Early saon game agains Orlando in the Win column. No Rashard Lewis:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4381822

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Ariose: I have no problem acknowledging that Flip was a great addition and played, on balance very good basketball for the Hawks last year. My point is twofold: 1. Jamal is a much better player 2. Signing Flip would be duplicitous, unnecessary and a poor use of limited resources. Also the article at Peachtree Hoops does not…even using that defensive metric, prove that Flip is a better defender. Jamal was the best defender of the two during his time with the Bulls…similar and sometimes better with the Knicks and unquestionalble worse with the Warriors…let’s see what happens when playing with a different team in a different system…and able to have a real reasonable chance for success for the first time!!

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My hope is that Sund (or his assistant) is talking to the agent of Etan Thomas, Kurt Thomas and any other “most likely to be bought out and looking for a team in February/March” candidate. Start sweet talking those guys now in hopes that they will strongly consider joining the Hawks and not the super-elite. Just review the rosters of the 5-6 seemingly worse teams in the league and find the experienced bigs with 1-2 years left on their contracts. Etan and Kurt jumped out immediately, I’m sure that there are others. Start the process NOW, especially if it appears that we may have to sign community-college all-stars as fillers to start the season. Leave a roster spot (or two) open and make sure to send those vets a few greeting cards throughout the season. Does Hallmark have a card that reads “Congratulations on getting 15 minutes last night during that blowout loss. We look forward to bringing you back to the the NBA playoff chase in February. Yours truly, Rick Sund”?

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newkid, great point. I recall that the previous GM (who shall remain nameless) talked about not building a team for an occasional run at the playoffs but one that would maintain a consistent postseason appearance. I think that the previous GM laid the foundation and Sund has done a very nice job of adding and maintaining. What is not yet clear is if the equation will result in something more than 2nd round playoff appearances. I support letting this play itself out for maybe one more season and then seeking a trade that gets us to the next level sometime during the ‘10-11 season. But to your point, the key is continued growth, both individually and as a team. Individual scoring averages can go down as long as we’re more efficient and balanced. But field-goal percentages, rebounding and forcing turnovers need to improve. There is no doubt that we’re built to maintain our place in the league’s hottest night club. But do we have what it takes to get into the VIP room? Not yet.

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AJ, with ‘his plan’ now apparently evolving quite well, have you ever wondered why that nameless GM decided to jump ship in the middle of what now appears as if it could become quite a successful voyage? Could he have been convinced that his first mate didn’t have the grist to manage the sailors through to the designated port of call (yet didn’t have the support he needed to throw him overboard), or was he perhaps beginning to doubt that his ‘in-fighting’ financiers were up to the chore of seeing the project through to completion? Will the first mate make it? Will the nameless GM – in June of 2011, ‘12, and ‘13 – reflect in HUGE regret as we celebrate under a Woody hoisted O’Brien trophy on hot afternoons on Peachtree Street?

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Astro Joe ,

Your last two posts: very well written. Couldn’t agree more.

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Billy and Woody is an example of hiring a friend, discovering that you have philosophical differences that turn into a wedge in the friendship, and then not knowing how to stay professional throughout the process.

Or so it seemed.

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Doug, I agree, After doing a lot of thinking, It would be unwise to give Flip a deal. Especially when we’ve got bigger and better shooting guards waiting in the wings. Sirgey Galdyr is 6′5 and is a better shooter than Flip. He also handles the ball really well. Then there’s Cenk Akyol who isalso 6′5(I think Rick is eventually going to trade his rights…..was’t very inpressive at the mini-camp) but he’s there as well. Those guys well be here in the future(Probably wehen Mo’s contract runs it’s course) so room will need to be made for them. Oh yeah and tha Crawford guy, he’s here too lol. So I understand why Flip won’t be coming back.

As for the stats. It’s really hard to find good defensive stats. The ones I gave certainly don’t tell the whole story, especially since crawford was on some of the worse defensive squads in the leauge. But the stats gave me more of a general picture than comparing Crawford and Flips blocks/steals etc. we all know how decieving those stats are lol.

I’m with you though. I think Jamal will excel here in the ATL. Playing alongside Mike and Joe will make him and everyone else on our squad better. He should be rejuvinated, finally getting his chance to prove hwat he can do. It’s shaping out to be a great season!

Sign Siler, Joe Smith, another (long)SF, and Mario and were good to go!

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The Hawks have made steady improvement in wins since Woodson’s been the HC. But most of that improvement has been due to the acquisition and upgrade of talent, until last yr. The additions of Bibby at the trade deadline and the drafting of AHorford in 07 started us on the way to becoming successful playoff contenders. But last yr, our success was based almost exclusively on us coming together, as well as individual player improvement and production.

Personally, I believe last yrs formula will be the major cause of this yrs improvement, rather than the addition of 1 or 2 FA Bigs to our bench. This will be the 1st yr that Woodson will have a team comprised of all the major players he’s approved of. THAT IN ITSELF IS A MAJOR IMPROVEMENT. In other words, the top 4 players off this yrs bench, MEvans, JCrawford, JTeague and ZPachulia, will be either traded for, signed or resigned, with Woodson’s input and/or approval.

There should be no personal issues, hopefully, like the ones that existed between Woodson and players like ALaw, SStaudemire or SJones. Oh, one more thing. Orlando will now have only one starter available from last yrs NBA finals team to start the season. So, we have a very good chance to get off to a good start, which we usually do, and get a jump on Orlando and win the 3rd seed. GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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Ken, I completely agree.

Daniel, I’m willing to give Randolph at least until the deadline to prove that’s he’s worth the money he’s getting paid lol. He AT LEAST seems commited by losing 30lbs and participating in the teams mini-camp. Now Mario is a different story. The way the roster is shaping out, It looks like he will get that last spot again. He’s also a RFA so he could sign a one year qualifier. I like Mario’s hustle. That can’t be overlooked, but the guy needs a jumpshot or he won’t make it much farther.

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Ray & doc, thanks. doc, my regression from Paul to Saul happened when Sund acquired a certain combo guard which had me immediately speculating that we would not being able to add a quality big and would have trouble keeping Marvin and Joe. Basically, I thought that he wasted the limited grocery budget on more fruits when we needed some beef (fruit is good for your diet but this team is protein-deficient). So to answer your question… feed me some quality beef and I return to “Astro”. Not the cube-steak (Stromile or Pollard). Not the veal (undrafted FAs who are years from maturity). Get me that well-marbled ribeye that is still sitting in the window… Joe Smith, and I will be a happy cowboy.

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Oh yeah, add Tony Battie to Sund’s Hallmark card list. No way he stays in NJ for the entire season. And if Gortat & Bass stay healthy, there may not be room for him back in Orlando (that also assumes that Rashard gets off that Sammy Sosa Sauce).

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AJ, really cooooool stuff on GMs!! Really like Kurt Thomas he is a vet Big with the savvy and playoff experience that this team sorely needs,

Big Ray and Doc, while I will agree that Sund came into a fortuitous situation compared to BK…to his credit he has stayed the course and made the most of it. I’m impressed!!

Yeah…I know…no Big…Still impressed at the way he conducts his business. Man if Sund some how managed to sign two vet Bigs… I would not be surprised if Mark Bradley nominates Sund for the Nobel Peace Prize.heh heh.

Can a brotha get a vet BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!

GO TEAGUE…GO SILER…AND GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Mario is a nice story and all but if he hasn’t added a jump short or learned to dribble with his left hand then give me Gerald Green to take over his spot.

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Sekou, anything new on Joe Smith and JJ?????

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CP I agree. I really like Mario…but with the abundance of guards…the Hawks could go a different way and give that time to Teague…we still have MO to help against big SGs…Guys like Mario will turn up on somebody roster. It may be time to move on.

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Kevin Durant is becoming scary good. Just think, this guy played center in college.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Video-Kevin-Durant-lights-up-Goodman-League;_ylt=AsPlVfQXOWbYflES6wdBMyy8vLYF?urn=nba,181515

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Doc, AJ, Ken, Ray, etc. **No Bigs** 4 & done again – BASG!

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Why are so many of you so up in the air over who we sign as our #2 backup C/PF? We managed 47 wins and gained the 4th seed with Solo as our #2 backup C/PF. And that was with him getting 10 inconsistent MPG and a butt load of DNPCD’s.

We saw how fragile Boston is and how easily they fall apart with the loss of a key player. Orlando will start the season having to deal with some serious chemistry and adjustment issues, and Cleveland got by last yr virtually injury free. They’re just an injury to LJames away from falling apart. We are the only team in our conference that’s proven capable of overcoming injuries and adversaties without falling apart.

I really like the Hawks as they are right now, although adding another quality Big wouldn’t hurt. I think we’ll be able to improve upon last yrs success with or without signing Joe Smith.

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Now that Marvin has signed his deal, I believe that it clears the way for signing Joe Smith and perhaps another vet. Extend Joe to eliminate that potential distraction, and the Hawks haven’t had a bad summer.

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The Lakers had Andrew Bynum 7′0 280, Pau Gasol 7′0 260, and the length of Lamar Odom; not to mention some guy named Kobe. Even with all that though, they did not “handle” Dwight Howard. I don’t know what you were watching, but I remember all Lakers bigs looking sick on the sideline in foul trouble at one point or another. It is not like the Lakers blew out the magic. They got it done in some close games that could’ve went either way. Chris Bosh is smaller than Al Horford, he might get a concussion trying to play center full time. And how does a knicks championship 30+ yrs ago have anything to do with Bosh in this day and age. I’m not following your line of thought.

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Doug I had forgotten about Carney. I would love him or Gerald Green to back up Marvin. Mo is just too small to guard small forwards.

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If Joe Johson was smart, he should go ahead and sign his extension now. Next year f/a class of 2010 is not going to live up to the hype.

Please do not, I repeat, please do not underestimate the mind of David Sterns. Dude came out a year early and spoke of the impending dome of the league and stating that the cap will be lower next year. This is equivalent to Alan Greenspan or the current chairman of the federal reserve saying that the interest rate may drop. The market reacts.

Stern can not afford to have one or two teams “stacked” with talent. Stern knows for the viability of the league, he needs several teams to be viable. The west coast has Portland, L.A., San Antonio, Denver. Midwest-Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit. East Coast-Orlando, Miami, Atlanta.

Sterns comments about the cap dropping next year will be enough to keep New York from getting 2 top tier players.

KUDOS TO STERN!!

“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay thirsty my friends!”

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Ken Strickland, Great 10:22 pm post. But Hawks do need two more bigs that can contribute. Remember last year when Al was out and Zaza was starting or playing heavy minutes? Who backs Zaza or Josh up if they get injured or in foul trouble? Solo? He’s gone. RandMo? He can’t move or play. Also we give up too many defensive rebounds to bigger teams because our frontcourt is small.

JJ made his name in Atlanta, not in Phoenix where he came off the bench most part. Although he did shine in the playoffs in Phoenix the season he broke his nose.

Joe has more money that some small countries? That was so funny!

Things gonna be interesting up in Cleveland now that LeBron has said he is not signing an extension this year.

Go Hawks!

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Doug, thanks lol. I agree Carney is a guy I like way back when he played with the Sixers in 07-08. High energy guy who can hit the open three. He’s only 6′6 and really skinny though but he and Mo should have no problem backing up Marvin at the SF spot. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say by the end of the season Siler > Morris hehehe. But I think Morris is more suited tp play the PF position.

I wish we could do a S&T Mo Evans for Linas Kleiza, but I think because we’re over the cap we cannot take on salary in a trade….I may be wrong about that though.

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Ariose: Klezia would be a great get….could we throw in Morris and get it done??? Carney is skinny but tough and he just gives you one more guy to stretch the floor that can hold his own athletically

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Doug, No question, Carney is as athletic as they come. I don’t know what Klezias qualifying offer would be, but whatever it is, it shouldn’t bee too much because he was a second round pick. Mo+Randolph should bemore than enough.

Samuel, I agree.

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Okay Flash, if that’s what you believe than have at it. Cause sounds like you are believing what you want to anyway. Dwight Howard is going to continue to get better and comparing what the knicks did to Wilt Chamberlain way back when has nothing to do with your argument. I’m not trying to hate on you, but your examples are not piecing together. Chris Bosh would want too much money to come here anyway, it he’d consider coming at all. We agree that Josh Smith would be the player that needs to be moved though; and at least you didn’t come out with Amare Stoudamire’s name again. I don’t think we are a championship team as is, but depending on how things play out we could sneak past the second round.

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…..our schedule SUCKS!!!!

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One more big man down: Adrian Wojnarowski tweets that Big Baby Davis is on the verge of re-signing with Boston.

Rick Sund, GET UP OFF YOUR AZZ AND SIGN JOE SMITH!!!

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“Marvin is an important part of our core, and we’re very pleased to keep him in a Hawks uniform,” Hawks executive vice president/general manager Rick Sund said in a statement. “A big priority this summer was to retain as many of our free agents as possible and keep our nucleus intact, so Marvin’s return is significant for us.”

Huh. Glad Marvin’s signed. Looks like Sund has revealed one of the big priorities of the offseason. Might have been the biggest one, but he didn’t specify.

The “big man” watch continues. Because we have nothing else to do.

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Samuel,

I’ll agree that Andris Biedrins is no behemoth, and Bosh certainly isn’t. If we got Bosh, he’d play PF and Horford would have to stay at center. Perhaps not the ideal situation, but Bosh is a 20 and 10 guy.

With Biedrins, you have a guy who played center in the Western Conference and managed to average 12 points, 11 rebounds, and 1.5 blocks per game. If we got him, he’d play center, and Horford would play PF. May not be the ideal “banging” situation, but you’re talking about having two guys in your starting frontcourt that can both give you a double double every night. Hard to be mad at that….

Still, I understand the preference for a true big body. But if we trade one of our core, who are we getting? None of the starting-caliber bigs I know of are for sale. I mean, as much as I’d love to have an Al Jefferson for somebody of that ilk, it ain’t happening.

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Ray,

Bosh would be nice but considering the fact that all the top 3 teams have huge guys in the middle, he wouldn’t help that much. Biedrens gets a lot of garbage hoops and rebounds due to that Nelly system.(See the Matrix). I’m not sure he would do that here. He’d be pretty much on the level of a ZaZa(which aint bad) but not enough to put us in the top 3.

A couple of people mentioned Amare. I would do Josh for Amare if he’s healthy and we can extend him. Of course those are two really big “ifs” but when he’s healthy he’s one of the best in the game. The catch 22 is: if he is healthy and comes back to his old self, many more teams will be after him. if he’s not, you’re stuck with him. if healthy, I’d much rather have him than Bosh or Biedrens.

Again, If Cleveland doesn’t win it all. They will be “busted” up and fall into the lottery community. I Lebron goes, so does Shaq. Actually Shaq may go even if they do win it all. That will be a top 3 slot we can fill.

I think Boston has one more good year left. I don’t see KGs knees holding up much longer and Sheed doesn’t really seem like a good “New Englander” to me. I don’t know if that marriage will work too long. Another opportunity to slip into the top 3. Even if we go with what we have now.

So again, I’m excited about this year but i’m really excited about next Fall.

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Sam,

To extend your thought with a slight change of subject. Excluding the Hawks(ha,ha), what do yall think will happen. Does Kobe (and Fisher), Duncan or Shaq get their 5th ring this season or will KG/Pierce get their 2nd ring? Or maybe Superman get his first? Weight in everyone…

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Spurs will romp if Duncan stays healthy.

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So Josh Smith is effective when finishing on the wing? Wow, what a concept. Maybe we should consider feeding him the ball on the wing, instead of setting him up for jumpers or ill-fated drives in the half court. Of course, that would require that we run just a tad more….

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Melvin,

I gotta go with Shaq and LeBron. That team reminds me too much of the Heat with Shaq and Dwade. Veraj is your Haslem and Mo is your White choc. Iggy not quite Zo but very close. Parker and Moon will also help their athleticism. Don’t forget JJ Hickson either. He really impressed me last year. I believe they will get it done.

The Celtics will challenge them “IF” KG comes back 100%(which I don’t think will happen).

Out west, I gotta go with the Lakers. Ron Artest is a huge pickup.

hell of a finals:
Cleveland vs LA.

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This will be a very important year for Al Horford. Since it is that third year when the most promising rookies emerge and make their validation statement, Al will be under special scrutiny to show his metals. He will either confirm or deny that he is the coveted player he was expected to be. The dust should be settle as to whether or not AL is a center or a PF. He certainly will be tested in a beefed-up eastern conference. Al will not be given a pass if he is playing out of position and falls short of expectation. Three years should be enough time to prove it. Of course, it wouldn’t be fair, given the circumstances, but he will, unfortunately, bear most of the criticism if that scenario was to happen. Without question, it will be Al’s mission and responsibility to get BIGGER, STRONGER AND DEVELOP A MUCH BETTER OFFENSIVE POST GAME if he wants to silent the doubters about his center ambition. If Zaza and/or other center backups are constantly bailing him of games where he is out manned and offensively struggling, then the verdict will be rendered that the perceived experiment did not work. However, if Al can exactly accomplish his mission and silent the doubters, then Sund, Woody and even BK could look like geniuses for picking and staying with him as a center.

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The Truth, with he way Sund has been getting other contracts done, my guess is that he already moved on and only the fans are still clamoring for Joe Smith (and I’m one of those clamoring the most).

Ray, it would also help if Josh would fill the wing on those fast break opportunities instead of trying to be Magic Johnson.

I’d take Graham over Carney… just because Graham is bigger and more physical. But honestly, I’d just try to bring back Othella Hunter and see if he can give us 8 minutes of tenacious defense.

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The Truth…

agreed… this is a show me year for Al…

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AJ

That “clamoring” thing; it’s a dirty job but I guess somebody got to do it, ah-uh?

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SAMUEL-I actually understand your point, but I don’t think that’s our biggest problem. It’s not the size of either Astaudamire, ABiedrins or CBosh, but the style of play they’d be forced to play in. The biggest problem with Biedrens or Bosh coming here is they’d end up suffering the same fate as our current players. And that’s being forced to function within a limited halfcourt OFF system that doesn’t allow them to take full advantage of their talents, skills and athleticism.

There’s a very serious gap between the style of play our players and team are best suited for, and what Woodson wants. There’s no way the current Hawks can get to the next level if our HC insists on forcing that square peg into that round hole.

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Truth,

Maybe we can get lucky and get Leon Powe. Or not…maybe he just finds a way to stick with Boston the way Big Baby did. Yeah, I’ll pass the joint…here ya go….

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Graham has one of the lowest b ball iq’s I have seen. I would take Carney or Green over him and that’s saying a lot since Green’s b ball IQ is not that high either. I think we will be bringing Hunter back. There are not too many more options left and he is a promising young player. Anthony Randolph is a pf/sf but with Don Nelson he would be crazy enough to try and play the kid at Center which would be a disadvantage to him because he is not very big or strong. Biedrens is a real good player. Considering how much they ignore him on the offensive end due to the chucking many of their players do, his production is pretty good. He is a good rebounder regardless of the system they play. He could easily average 12 boards a game if he played for a different team or a different system. He stays in foul trouble but that’s due to the Warriors guards and forwards inability to stay in front of their man so he has to come over a lot of times. I like Biedrens and he could easily help this team.

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Ray,

I think Randolph will probably end up starting this year. I just really feel that. I’m not sure if that means Biedrens goes or someone else but Nellie really likes him and so do I.

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Samuel,

I like the guy too, and I hope Nellie lets him do his thing. I see him starting at the 4 though. He’s not a banger, though he could create some serious matchup problems for teams at the 4. Biedrins is no scorer, and Turiaf is a thug on the floor (gotta love it), so let them man the middle. Put the ball in Randolph’s hands and let him make GS fans forget all about guys like Al Harrington, I say.

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Read where Chauncey Billups is taking JR Smith under his wing to help him get through his off court and on court problems.

While our guys don’t have off court problems, where are the veterans that could mentor them? Sure, Teague will have Bibby and Team Dime to lean on. And maybe Joe will show a little leadership himself, rather than just talk to the media about another young guy runnin’ wild….

But there hasn’t been, and still isn’t anybody to take guys like Smith under their wing. And Smith NEEDS that. Closest thing we ever had to that was sorry ass Lorenzen Wright, who was more interested in doing his own retarded version of “Punk’D”, and making sure rookies were treated like rookies.

Depth in the frontcourt is one thing. But a lack of mentorship and veteran leadership for the last 5 years in that area is another problem we’ve had. And our youth movement stems from where? Mostly the frontcourt.

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Now is when everything gets serious. Maybe, just maybe Sund hasn’t offered Joe Smith, or any other Big, a contract because he had to see how much it was going to cost to resign MWilliams, his #1 FA priority. And that makes perfect sense for a team on a budget. Now that Mavin is in the fold, we’ll see how serious the team is about signing another FA Big or 2.

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Yup, four years ago as a rookie, Biedrins was godawful from the line. Now he’s merely quite bad – 55.1% to Josh’s 58.8%.

Most centers are bad from the line. Biedrins won’t be getting too many touches in the post anyway (which is how Woody likes it for his centers), so he won’t have to shoot too many free throws. My guess is that he’ll shoot between 60 and 65% from the line going forward, since most players improve their free throw shooting as they gain experience. I can live with that from a guy who’ll only take 3-4 free throws per game anyway.

I doubt it will happen, and I’m honestly not 100% sure that Josh for Biedrins improves the team since I’m in the crowd that views Horford as a good, though, not ideal center. But Biedrins is an even better center, and it’s very hard to come by long, strong, and athletic 6′11 guys who inhale rebounds like Dennis Scott inhales tacos. He would be an upgrade over Horford at center, and I honestly think that Horford would be Smoove’s equal at PF before too long. But that’s the key question – if you consider Horford a step down from Smoove at PF, it’s probably not a good deal. If you consider him at least equal, it’s a good deal.

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Big Ray, tell me why I have a HARD time imagining Lo putting popcorn in Smoove’s car when he was a rookie? Tell me why I think they would still be fighting til this day?

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good one nire!

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*thin corps

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I didn’t say he was a center. That never stopped Nellie in the past. Randolph’s numbers in the last month of the season last year were much better than Biedrens. I can see him inserting Turiaf in at C and starting Randolph at PF or Josh at PF and Randolph at SF.

Nellie likes Shooters.

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NIREMETAL-Replacing Horford at C with Biedrens and JSmith at PF with Horford wouldn’t hurt the team, just give it a different overall dimension. Horford’s very good midrange jumpshooting would make him a better fit at PF in Woodson’s limited jumpshooting guard dominated halfcourt OFF. I believe his post up gm would be more effective since he’d be using his size and strength against PF’s instead of Centers. He’s a better FT shooter than Josh, would very likely have fewer turnovers, and would provide a different type of solid DEF.

A center rotation of Biedrins/Zaza and a PF rotation of Horford/Hunter would look good to me.

SAMUEL-We have a HC that likes shooters as well, as long as their name isn’t Salim Staudemire.

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Whatever Woody’s shortcomings are I think his evaluation and useage of Salim have been…shall we say…supported by the unwillingness for any other NBA team to employ/ues a short, one dimensional streak shooter…or is Popovich’s ability to judge talent also impaired???

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bigdave

August 8th, 2009
10:10 pm

THEY WERE DROPPING PASSES BECAUSE MICHAEL VICK CANT THROW…OH THATS RIGHT MICHAEL NO LONGER PLAYS FOR THE FALCONS THEIR NEW QUARTERBACK IS A HANDOFF ARTIST WHOS CLAIM TO FAME IS THAT HE HANDS OF TO TURNER THE RUNNER UP LEAGUE MVP AND TO NORWOOD.

ITS GOT TO BE THE RECEIVERS FAULT!!

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I’m sorry for so many grammatical errors in that last post, but I’m late for the church and was rushing! Hope everyone has a lovely Sunday.

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Interesting article:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3151

When I was putting together some of the Win Shares-based lists we’ve been posting recently, I wondered how heavily each team relied on their frontcourt and backcourt, and whether or not that correlated to success. So, first I added up WS by a team’s guards and their non-guards, making each into a percentage…

[T]here is no real relationship between a team’s allocation and its success. We’ll see later that balance is by far the more important determining factor in team wins.

Woody, you taking notes?

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Ramon, great post at 12:15. I’m one of the few that like Josh at PF over Horford as well…

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The thrust and cut of most of the blog comments over the last few weeks about style of play and the respective talent needed to implement make one glaring assumption: that the Woodson era will extend indefinitely.

The era that remade Mike Bibby’s career and made Joe an All-star will have its limits tested in the 2009-10 season as expectations and scrutiny rise dramatically. No longer confined to the vast wastlands of national media attention, the team will have to play well or face the inevitable criticisms that come with unfullfilled expectations. and the first one to bear the brunt will be the coach.

Mr. Sund has stocked the cupboard with all of Woodson’s favorites.(except for today’s story wher Woodson whines about the lack of depth in the front court when his inability/unwillingness to practice player development brought about this crisis). And he has $2 million to hire a new coach and/ or buy Woodson out if the need arises sooner than later.
Yes, these will be the best of times for some and the worst of times for others.

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Ill, it seems to me that the only expectations this team will endure next season is fighting to be “the best of the rest”. Every pundit will surely claim that there are 3 and then everyone else in our conference. At best, some will suggest that we may be the best of the rest (competing against Chicago, Detroit and maybe Miami if they acquire Boozer) but that certainly doesn’t feel like some crown of thorns to wear for a season. Sund will have an opportunity to determine Woody’s future when contract negotiations start in the spring.

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According to the “pundits” last year the Hawks wouldn’t even make the playoffs. Maybe they don’t really know what they are talking about.

I won’t give Woody all the blame for frontcourt player development. He’s been given trash to work with besides his starters. ZaZa being the only exception.

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Jhan,

“When we get a rebound & give the ball to Bibby, who then walks the ball up the floor & runs the play Woodson calls (iso-joe) how is that JJ’s fault?”

Nope, it ain’t JJ’s fault. The same thing keeps Josh and Marvin from filling the wing on the break. Gotta have a break first…

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How to get rid of truth-serum .

Give him real truth serum. A base neutralizes an acid. Raid kills Roaches. Orkin eradicates termites, and so on.

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Heh. I’m not missing Ben Wallace. He showed just how much of a locker room “help” he was in Chicago. Let’s just say that Joakim Noah and other highly motivated players don’t miss him. And Jim Boylan was an idiot for listening to him when it came to team discipline.

Truth ,

I agree. Accountability should be across the board. I don’t whine about Horford being out of position, but I also don’t see some of the same effort he gives coming from some of his teammates, either. As long as he’s our center, I want to see good things coming from him. Growth is a must, but I’m not going to sniff at a guy who everybody says is undersized, yet if you round his rebounds/points up just a hair, he gave us 12 points, 10 boards and 1.5 bpg in his second year.

How many centers in the league were better? I didn’t look that far, stat-wise. He can’t be far from the goal of top ten, and I’m sure he’ll make it if he stays healthy. And of course, if his offensive role is allowed to expand.

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Apparently our head coach has no say-so in our offense. No wonder Sund is in no hurry to resign him.

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Probably because Sund told the whole league his top priority was to resign Marvin, Bibby & ZaZa. Nobody made offers for any of them.

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Jhan, yes the head coach has say so in the offense, but not 100%. The coach doesn’t stop players (especially his top player) from making plays. Funny how Flip pushed the tempo, Horford pushed the tempo, Marvin pushed the tempo, Smoove pushed the tempo, and Bibby pushed the tempo, but JJ can’t push the tempo because of the coaches say so in the offense. I am not the only one who thinks JJ isn’t aggressive enough in the fast break.

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Ken, I understand that Woody says to slow the ball sometimes. But my point is I don’t believe he tells JJ to slow the tempo every single time. As I said, out of JJ, Bibby, and Flip, how is it that JJ had the least amount of fast breaks, although he plays the most minutes? I don’t know any coach in the league who doesn’t listen to his stars. If JJ really wanted to push the tempo, Woody would let him. We ALL know the Hawks build leads when they run. Yet, they merely try to hold on to the lead for dear life when they don’t. So if JJ is the team’s leader, and hasn’t spoken about the change that is needed in that department, then yes it is partly his responsibility.

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Sam,

Marvin was restricted. Bibby and Zaza weren’t. Marvin made it clear from the beginning of the summer that he wanted to return to Atlanta and Sund made it clear that he’d match any reasonable offer for Marvin. So no one made an offer for him – it happens every summer to a couple restricted guys.

But hey, you’re clearly off your meds again so I don’t blame you missing that OBVIOUS subtlety.

And Ramon – it’s JJ and Bibby’s fault that we don’t run a fast-paced offense? So I guess it’s Nash’s fault that the Suns pace slowed to a crawl this year, huh? Or Devin Harris’s fault that the Mavs’ pace slowed down after Nellie left?

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How many restricted free agents have been offered contracts?

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**Yawn** Alabama Viginia Tech Sept. 5th at the Dome.

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Hms, the point was made because he made it seem like nobody ever courts restricted free agents. I didn’t say anything about Josh being better than Marvin. If you could read and comprehend you would understand what my point was. Phoenix has been trying to do sign and trade deals for Amare and he’s not moving because they are asking for too much. Nobody is being a crab clown. Marvin is a number 2 pick with something to prove, that he should have been the 20th pick.

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Tuesday is August 11. Josh Smith will not be a BYC player after that. Will a trade be made after that date?

I only see 3 players left that I would be interested in for the 4th post position for the Hawks. Joe Smith, Linas Kleiza, and Leon Powe. Joe Smith will require a 2 year deal. Kleiza will also require a 2-3 year deal. Powe is a gamble with his history of knee injuries.

If we are going to sign another post player, then the Hawks should get a player that they can continue to build with. Joe Johnson’s extension is probably controlling the length of this deal. The Hawks want to re-sign JJ and stay under the L. tax. As I have said before, one of the core players has to go by next summer if the Hawks are going to stay out of L. tax.

We have 10 players under contract with 6.9M left under the L. tax. Knowing that a core player will have to be traded by next summer, why not get the best player available now as long as we stay under the L. tax? If, I said if, Josh is the one traded during the next 12 months, then why not sign Kleiza for 3 years? We could probably get him for 3M per. I don’t think Denver will go into the L.tax to match us! Then we can sign Siler and Korolev for a minimum salary. That leaves 2M for a 14th player. Maybe we can take a chance on Powe. He would be a gamble, but a steal if he worked out. Sometimes you need to take a gamble! O. Hunter is also available if you are afraid to gamble.

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If people say Al Horford is not that good as PF/C than why do people continuously mention Josh Smith and even JJ’s name in trade talk, but I have yet to hear anyone talk about Horford. That is because Horford gets it done. It’s not always pretty and definitely not his ideal situation, but he puts on his hard hat and gets it done. I’ve had my issues with Josh Smith as well, but I cannot deny all that he brings. I hope he takes a big step forward this season but if not I’m working on trade scenarios already. We already know finanically somebody (in top 7) is going to have to go next year anyway for the salary cap.

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And isn’t it great how Rod/Sam keeps claiming he’s two different people though “Sam” and “Rod” post ONLY to hate on Marvin and use “clown” in every damn post (which no one else here ever uses). And oh yeah, when “Sam” got called out for claiming to have played D1 ball, he forgot to go back and check that it was “Rod” who said that.

You’re not fooling anyone but yourself if you think anyone is buying into “Sam” and “Rod” being separate people. But we’ll know what’s up if “Ben from East Point” suddenly shows up making diss posts on Marvin.

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Stating the Obvious that you’re an idiot. I know Rod, I am not Rod dummy. I played D2 ball, and I never claimed to have played D1 ball, so I don’t know what you’re reading. To your restricted free agents comment, that’s true but Marvin is one that no other team wanted. He’s just not that good. What’s funny is I know the postmaster is laughing because he sees that me and Rod are 2 different people. Me and Rod also laugh at the comments when people think we are the same. You people are hilarious. And no, me and Rod are not the only ones who post statements against Marvin. We are the only ones you guys remember. You guys don’t know basketball and you don’t know game play. If you know game play, you will know that guy was not number 2 pick material.

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Mystikal, people tend not to mention Horford in trade talks because he is a quality big man on a rookie contract. So that makes him very valuable and finding a trade that would return comparable value is close to impossible. And the same was true of Smith (and to a lesser degree Marvin).

Sam (or Rod), how many offers has the beloved David Lee received this season? If you haven’t noticed, things have changed since last summer… this thing called “the economy”. If you don’t believe, ask Allen Iversen.

Joe does NOT push many fast break opps. In some cases, he seems to prefer to be the distributor (let’s not act like we have never watched Joe throw a lob from half court to Smith). But in most cases, he prefers to set-up in half-court. And guess what, that isn’t an awful decision. I think many of you only remember the playoffs. Our half-court offense in the regular season was FAR from awful. If it was predictable, it was only because IT WORKED. We were among the best in offensive TOs (think that helps us with defense?) We were among the top 10 in offensive efficiency, aided by few TOs and a fairly high number of trips to the free throw line. Bottom line, we did a better job of converting our offensive possessions into points than about 65% of the other teams. We had 6 players in double-figure points, do y’all think that a bunch of teams did that? They didn’t.

Yes, our playoff offense has been awful the past two seasons. But Boston’s stellar defense and a slew of injuries may have been undeniable factors. I could see how a player like Teague could help in the playoffs, especially if he truly can penetrate at will. Of course, I won’t be asking a rookie to be our savior in a playoff series. But I also don’t think that we could go from an ensemble cast during the regular season and then ask Joe to put the team on his shoulders in the playoffs. The formula can’t change in the 3-5 days between the end of the regular season and the start of the playoffs.

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And Stromile Swift? If we sign him, it better be to clean the locker rooms

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Anakin, I agree it was better than 65% of the league, but that is proven by a #4 seed. But to beat the other 3 seeds in front of the Hawks, they need more than what they are doing at the moment. When you’re trying to fight to get better, you’re not looking at the good things, but trying to see how to improve in all the other areas that you don’t take advantage in. If you remember the Spurs, Lakers, and Bulls, they beat you at both games because they could play both games. But the thing was they decided the tempo, they decided what was going to happen and how fast or slow it was going to happen. And I’m only saying I think JJ could take advantage of things more and it would make it easier on him

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I can’t believe I’m gonna say this, but….co-sign Anakin Joe

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Regarding Joe Smith, I previously wrote that it is highly likely that he will sign with the Cavs since they are no longer perusing Leon Powe. However, after further review and since I have nothing else to write about, there still might be a slim chance he still could sign with the Hawks. Since Lebron has publicly stated that he will keep his options open and explore the FA market, he might have inadvertently created an opportunity for the Hawks to sign Joe Smith. I say that because, if you don’t know it by now, the Cavs are comfortably into L. Tax land at nearly 80M including Ilqaukas 11.5M option. If they sign Joe Smith now, they will pay twice what the Hawks would pay for him (for the same money) is discouraging fact number 1. In other words, for example, a 2.3M deal this year becomes really a 4.6M deal (ouch!). If they are still in L. tax next year which is likely given their roster picture, the 2.3M deal becomes 9.2M over two years (awful ouch!) for a projected 36 year old (third option) PF. Fact number 2: since Lebron will be a FA next year, they must plan now to be extremely flexible with their roster salary to make room for the Max-dollar offered to him next year. Given further decline in the salary cap next year, surely they wouldn’t want to commit more L. Tax dollars now with the expected financial challenge coming from Lebron next year. However, if the Cavs owners aren’t bothered in L. Tax land now and have a bottomless pit of money, then maybe the additional tax doesn’t matter to them. We shall see.

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Sam, Smith is making around $11M per year and Marvin is making around $7.5M per year. Maybe it’s just me, but I think that the time has come to officially stop looking at their draft position. “The market has spoken” and has declared that Josh is about 40% more valuable than Marvin. Their draft slot is outdated data. Once a player reaches their second contract, I think draft selection becomes as meaningful as their high school scoring average.

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Sam: JJ is our best perimeter defender???? Who guards Lebron? Paul Pierce??? Granger??? It is Marvin. He is longer….just as strong…and actually cares about guarding. You cannot find a NBA scout or personnel guy that thinks…any longer…that Joe Johnson is a better perimeter defender thatn Marvin. Simply is a fact. It may have alot to do with the burden that JJ has(carries) on the offensive end but you are simply a Joe homer to think or contend otherwise. Marvin does trip…he does get more blocked than he should…but he is also “developing” a put it on the floor game…witness his nice running hook developed last year…elevates well…good touch…strong. That move did not exist for him until last year. I understand that Josh has more market value…never contended otherwise…and am not one who is calling for him to be traded. I simply think there are ALSO other factors, previously mentioned, that went in to his being offerred a contract and Marvin not.

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Did you hear me? ATTACK THE RIM Dammit!

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Not that there is that much left in Free Agency, from the list of names in the last article (Swift, etc.)
Are we not interested in at least Mikki Moore or Brian Skinner over someone like Stromile Swift??

Also, if one looks at the Bucks roster or the Nets, they have toooooo many BIGS and I’m sure would love to let one go to save cap room. Based on some of the odd trades over the summer, I’m sure we could snaggle away a Kurt Thomas or Francisco Elson or an Eduardo Najera for a Morris contract, a 2nd rounder or cash.

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IF we do get Joe Smith, I have no problem adding Collins to our roster.

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RAMON-In JJ’s defense, when you’ve annually finished 1st or 2nd in mins played, and know you’re likely going to lead the NBA in mins played again, you naturally try to pace yourself. That is, if you’re smart.

I don’t understand the reluctance in signing OHunter. It’s not like he’s an unknown comodity, and Woodson seems to think a lot of him. With our starting lineup, along with Zaza, Morris, Evans, Teague and Crawford already under contract, we have only 2 open roster spots. If we sign Joe Smith, who gets the final spot? Will it be a PF like OHunter or a center like Siler? My guess is Siler, since JSmith can play PF and some center.

I don’t know, but that would look like a pretty versatile bench, assuming it’s used properly, or at all.

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SAM-you claim Marvin stumbles and trips continueously when he drive to the basket. Well, he managed to stumble and trip his way to the FT line 4.5 times a gm, which is 3rd behind Smoove(5.2) and JJ(4.6), and they attempt more shots than he does. You might not like him, but don’t allow that to get in the way of the facts.

With last yrs emphasis on a continuously switching DEF, there’s much less emphasis on individual DEF. Whether Marvin or JJ is the better defender is a close call, but Bibby being the worst, now that’s a given.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMkyp5KeJzs&feature=channel

LOL@ Ron Artest

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Does anyone think that RandMo can play the bakup PF spot? I think it would be an intersting experiment…..

Poop, yeah I had to sit that one out lol. They were writing Essays up there LOl!!!

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We have no pf depth yet we have a guy in Hunter who everyone has said improved dramatically who is available and knows the system yet we have not offered the kid a contract. Stop wasting time and get this young guy signed. He works hard, doesn’t complain, and plays to his strengths.

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Ariose,

Speedy did that awhile back. I was like “wha…?”

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Ken, I understand how one would feel that way. But I guess I believe if he put that extra energy in those plays, it would lead to big enough momentum swings, where he’d be able to rest more later. I understand the whole Crawford deal was basically so JJ could get more rest. And I hope more rest means more attacking.

Ken, have you notice how some people say because he plays 40+ minutes a game, its a good reason for him to only go 80-85% during the game. However, the same people (not saying you) criticize Smoove when he’s not playing ‘hard’ (even though Horford is the only player who arguably plays harder than Smoove on both ends).

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Check this out! lol

http://www.youtube.com/narrowworld

Deep, Im working on that right now hehehe…

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going back to read the posts from last night. Man, things get a little embarassing on here.
Truth-serum: I actually think people are overly critical of woodson and tend to defend him also. But dude you really need some help. Are you really calling names like on an elementary school playground?

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Will Sund view Woody as having strayed off the reservation with some of his observations in Sekou’s article? Will Sund see Woody’s comments as having weakened Sunds’ negotiating position – as it were – in the Joe Smith affair?

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Fans will never REALLY knowwhat goes on behied closed doors in the NBA. Or even in the Locker Rooms for that matter.

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newkid- I vote your second observation

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When Sekou asked Woody if he is concerned with front court depth, Woody should have just pointed to his depth chart and said “Nuff said”. It would have been the shortest article in Sekou’s career.

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LOL…I think most of you would be mad at Sekou if he posted a sentece long article hehehe…..

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Astro Joe,

Excellent point about our offense being better during the regular season, then falling apart in the playoffs and going right back to Joe. The $64,000 question (if you’re playing “The Weakest link” or some other similar gameshow) is “why?”

In the face of adversity or simply tougher-than-normal conditions, people tend to “rise to the occasion” less, and are “reduced to their level of training” more. Of course, that usually leads to another round of our usual blame game around here, but that can’t be helped. : )

OH, and you know Woody is just not that short-winded when he’s asked a question. Unless he’s being interviewed by Jeff Schultz….

By the way, I think you should make “ATTACK THE RIM” your tag line. Snazzy. Hip. Dope. Or however it’s said these days. I like it.

Sam From the Swats,

I agree that Josh gets a lot of flack, more than the guys drafted ahead of him. At the same time, Joe is right. It’s less about draft position by now, and more about showing what they are truly capable of. Marvin is no game changer. Josh is. That doesn’t mean Marvin’s no good. But it does mean that more is expected out of Josh, who is clearly capable at this point of having a much more dynamic effect on any given game, on any given night.

By the way, unless you’ve talked to every single GM and/or front office personnel of every team, you can’t possibly know that no teams were interested in Marvin. Just because it wasn’t reported doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Front office personnel are on the phone with each other all year long. If all the phone calls and conversations were leaked to various media outlets, the deluge of rumors would saturate and permeate everything. We wouldn’t even know who made the playoffs for trying to keep up with the rumors…..

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One more thing on Woody’s quote… it is consistent with his style. Last season, Woody came out and declared “we want home court advantage and to win 50 games”. He said it in his first year with a new boss. He put himself and his team out there. So why not step forward and say “we need front court depth”? How is he supposed to avoid the obvious? Did you want him to say “I am comfortable that we can compete with a 10 man roster”? Or “we could sign a few thick brothas on the corner and go out and nail the 4th seed, we’ve got it like that”? I would love to hear Bobby Cox say something more than his same old “I like our team” line that we hear each and every April. It sounds fake, routine and thoughtless, especially after being a .500 team tha past 3.5 years. Oh and if Sund is a guy who likes to have “deals fall in his lap” then having the coach tell all of the remaining veteran big men that the Hawks have a big-ole vacancy sign hanging in the front window is a good idea. Here’s guessing that Sund had more than 2-3 messages waiting for him this morning from various agents of available bigs. “Let’s talk, call me at …”.

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I think Joe Smith is stalling because he has no intention to sign with the Hawks. He’s just stringing us along and waiting for Cleveland to up their offer. Kind of like how Lamar Odum flirted with the Heat this offseason but WE ALL KNEW he wouldn’t leave that good situation he had in LA.

In an article about a week ago, Joe Smoth said that Atlanta is were he wants to be. Seems like a front for something bigger(cle) if you ask me…

Thats my conspiracy theory for the day lol.

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The Hawks are correctly moving on to Plan B if and when Joe Smith signs with the Cavs. This will lessen the embarrassment if we get rejected. At least Woody has publicly shown plenty of love for the guy and expressed to him his value with the Hawks. I don’t know what the Hawks money offer is but he will likely turn-down being the option-2 guy for being the option-3 guy. However, if Sund knew he was competing against the Cavs, a real title contender, then he’s a fool if he low-balled the offer to Joe Smith; especially after striking-out so many times before with all the contention for big-men. On the other hand, this might not be about Sund at all. This might simply be about a disingenuous Joe Smith using the Hawks to gain leverage with the Cavs just because he can. I hope it doesn’t backfire on him.

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The Hawks are so very bad in the
Playoffs. They
Deserve to be booed Their offense and
Defense is sub-par.
I think the comment
Joe Johnson made
About the Hawk’s
Fans was out of
Frustration but
Not the less he
Should not have
Made them. If he
Doesn’t perform well on Monday, it could
be an ugly sight.
What team want a
Subpar super star
With a negative
Attitude towards the fans.Joe Johnson
will be the same
Player no matter
Where he signs to
Play in 2011.e

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