Still a work in progress

Marvin Williams doesn't have a new deal yet, but it should be a slam dunk with both sides clear on the parameters for the Hawks' restricted free agent forward.

Marvin Williams doesn't have a new deal yet, but it should be a slam dunk with both sides clear on what it's going to take to get it done.

HAWKSVILLE - The word spreading around the NBA summer league in Las Vegas is that Marvin Williams and the Hawks have agreed to terms on a new deal (so say our friends at hoopsworld.com).

That would be news to Williams.

“Somebody is lying to them,” Williams said via text message Sunday afternoon. “That’s not true.”

As reported here last week, the Hawks are working hard to get something done.

But it’s not done.

Not yet.

In defense of the folks at HOOPSWORLD, their headline (”Marvin Williams gets his deal”) reads much stronger than the actual text of their item, which clearly states that “sources” told them that the sides are “close” to a new deal.

It makes sense that they heard that. Everybody in this business has sources.

Still, when asked Sunday afternoon if the sides had a deal in place,  Jim Tanner, who represents not only Williams but also Zaza Pachulia and Josh Childress, responded via text, “NO.”

On the bright side, Williams did say that the injuries (back and wrist) that soured the end of his fourth season are healing fine and that he is lifting and doing court work these days in anticipation of another strong season.

And as I wrote in an entry last week, the situation for Williams looks like this: “Using Charlie Villanueva’s deal in Detroit (5 years, $40 million-range) as your guide, things should get much easier to decipher in the curious case of Marvin Williams. With a qualifying offer of $7.5 million, we’re not talking about anything out of the ordinary her for a guy that’s proved to be a valuable starter the past three years. Finding another 6-9 starting small forward that fits the way he does on this team will not be easy, despite all of the suggestions around here to the contrary. Respected and prolific colleague Mark Bradley has suggested many times that if any of the Hawks’ remaining building blocks was expendable it was Marvin. But as I look across the free agent landscape, I cannot co-sign that theory. Not with the free agent moves/trades that have gone on in the Eastern Conference since draft night. Not with Hedo Turkoglu in Toronto now and Vince Carter in his old spot in Orlando. And not with Villanueva in Detroit and the addition of Rasheed Wallace in Boston. The length the Hawks used to their advantage across the frontline with Williams, Josh Smith and Al Horford is more critical than ever. Even in one of the many proposed sign-and-trade deals offered up around these parts, I don’t see the Hawks adding the piece that could take Marvin’s place on this roster (in fit, size and temperament … three crucial factors that Marvin brings that go largely unnoticed by the public). The Hawks have made clear their preference for Marvin to remain a part of the core of this team and I see no reason why that shouldn’t happen. I can’t see any scenario where he is not a part of this team in the future.”

This isn’t high-level economics we’re talking about here people. It’s simply the art of negotiating. The team comes low, the representative for the player comes high and ultimately the sides make nice, after a whole lot of haggling over details, and decide to meet in the middle somewhere. 

 

That hasn’t happened yet for Williams.

362 comments Add your comment

niremetal

July 12th, 2009
8:08 pm

Oh noes! Sekou thinks that Marvin is valuable to the Hawks! Rod’s head will explode!!!

niremetal

July 12th, 2009
8:09 pm

Oh, and co-sign Sekou ;)

Najeh Davenpoop

July 12th, 2009
8:17 pm

From hoopsworld:

“Williams’ camp would like to see something in the $40 million range, and the Hawks’ initial offer was reportedly around $37.5, meaning the two sides were never really all that far off and something should be done soon.”

Over how many years is that? Please tell me 5 or more… Marvin is a valuable player, but if he’s going to average close to eight figures a year, that is way, way too much.

howie

July 12th, 2009
8:20 pm

Sekou-

Mark Bradley has added alot to your Hawks coverage but I am with you on this one….get Williams signed and see if we can bring Childress back and the Hawks are ready to go for the season.

niremetal

July 12th, 2009
8:25 pm

Yup, Bradley has added a lot to Hawks coverage. We really needed someone to write columns without ever watching a regular season game…

BrittishAnger

July 12th, 2009
8:26 pm

1,2,3,4, FIFTH!!!

jg

July 12th, 2009
8:27 pm

totally agree sekou. i’ve said it before marvin was playing very well for this team before his injuries. in fact, i thought he was the most consistent player on the team for a few months. with marvin you really know what your going to get. he’s not very flashy–but he can shoot the ball very good. mid-range and now long range. he can and will now drive it to the basket. he’s a very good free throw shooter too and i think his defense is above average if not better. i love this hawk team–get marvin’s deal done and this team will win a lot of games. add another big man and it could get real interesting around these parts.

people need to realize that’s it not all about fantasy stats when looking at the nba. marvin provides so much for this team right now–the playoffs this year was not the true marvin williams. he showed all year he was worthy of an extension and when he’s playing this squad can play with anyone. after the injury–you could tell that he still wasn’t healthy.

we need to really concentrate more on being a running team next year. get these guys on the move and don’t rely on our half court offense so much–that’s when the hawks get bogged down. run it as much as possible–then if that’s taken away–shoot it like we know we can with jj, marvin, bibby, crawford, evans and hopefully teague. woody please don’t hold these guys back anymore…turn them loose we know what they can do with you chaining them up. unlock the chains and let’em go.

Atypikal Ent.

July 12th, 2009
8:33 pm

Marvin is the best of what is left, not to mention that keeping this team together as best as possible will help the advancement.

Now we just need to scoop up another big somewhere for some rebounds..

Im also going to hate to see Flip leave, but I guess it has to happen with Crawford & Teague in the picture. Murray is a solid talent that has been shipped around way too much- best of luck to him.

BrittishAnger

July 12th, 2009
8:34 pm

Damn, missed it by milliseconds….

There isn’t much option to go any other way, Josh Smith proved too much of a liability from anything outside 15 ft. to shift him up and move Al back to his natural PF position, where as Marvin provided what I refer to as the “Tayshaun Presence” from that spot, putting numbers in places where we proved weak (3P% and garbage rebounds in particular). If the numbers are right, and the difference is a few paltry million, tweak the numbers up to about 60% of what the difference between the figures is, and both sides should be pacified enough to move forward and finish the last step of the summer, which is shoring up the ol’ front court.

Hey Sekou, you managed to get a comment from Randolph Morris about the age restriction, maybe you could ask him what his off-season has been like, what he thinks of the moves being made, and what he’s personally working on this summer to improve his game and increase his minutes off the bench? I’d be happy if you did…I wouldn’t be discouraged if you didn’t….

Steve

July 12th, 2009
8:40 pm

Marvin is arguably the most talented player on the team. He’s pretty much the only guy on the team who doesn’t do anything spectacularly, but does everything very well…that’s why he goes so unnoticed. It’s important for the Hawks to bring him back long term, because like Sekou said, they won’t find anybody else in free agency that can bring what he brings to this team: a nice sized post presence that can play great defense, protect the basketball, shoot mid-range and long-range, drive to the hoop and make tough layups. He’s still very young and will continue to just get better like he has every year.

ILL-logical

July 12th, 2009
8:55 pm

Semi -good news. Marvin is a player who I believe will more valuable comonig off the bench this season,especially when a staring 5 is found. He can provide some needed scoring punch at a variety of postions(2-4)as the game dictates. He is most definitely a team first kind of a guy and should help the cause in a long term deal.His biggest drawback is the inability to stay healthy and the possibility that the either the wrist /back is chronic.

ILL-logical

July 12th, 2009
8:56 pm

Semi -good news. Marvin is a player who I believe will more valuable coming off the bench this season,especially when a starting 5 is found. He can provide some needed scoring punch at a variety of postions(2-4)as the game dictates. He is most definitely a team first kind of a guy and should help the cause in a long term deal.His biggest drawback is the inability to stay healthy and the possibility that the either the wrist /back is chronic.

ldawg121

July 12th, 2009
9:03 pm

who are some big men available that the hawks might have a chance to land?

swatguy

July 12th, 2009
9:17 pm

Alright SS, I shall welcome Marvin back and sit aside my “move Joe to the 3″ idea. But tell me why Flip (as some say) is odd man out because of Teague? I understand his draft mandate, but he might not be “NBA caliber” from the jump. If he is better than Flip right now so be it. But We know what Flip gone do, evahtime. I say allow the young fellow to mellow while the grown folks handle the team.
Is there any noise about Kamen/Camby/Chandler being moved out there? I’ll sit back and listen.

jake

July 12th, 2009
9:17 pm

must keep marvin.

BrittishAnger

July 12th, 2009
9:33 pm

The list of unrestricted free agent centers (as juxed from ESPN.com) and the team they played with as of the end of last season. Reference link at bottom, which is actually being updated (Bibby and Zaza are off the listings for Atlanta as proof).

Mikki Moore, Boston Celtics
Johan Petro, Denver Nuggets
Rasho Nesterovic, Indiana Pacers
Jason Collins, Minnesota Timberwolves
Chris Wilcox, New York Knickerbockers
Theo Ratliff, Philadelphia 76ers
Calvin Booth, Sacramento Kings
Jake Voskuhl, Toronto Raptors
Jarron Collins, Utah Jazz

Consensus choice on the blog has been Wilcox since other choices have been snagged in the last week, but there’s everybody as of this date in the year of our Gord, 2009….

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=freeagents-09-10

Ernest

July 12th, 2009
9:34 pm

Glad to hear that Marvin is recuperating from last seasons injuries. I also agree that he ‘fits’ what we are attempting to accomplish here with the Hawks. When you factor in that he is only 23, it makes sense to sign him to a long term deal, thus keeping the core together.

Sekou, let me second what BritishAnger requested, how about a piece on RandMo? It is always interesting getting comments from the key players but how about those at the other end of the bench. I’m one of those that remembers him from his Atlanta Celtics days and wonder why he is having difficulty in making the transition to becoming a contributing player.

rainman

July 12th, 2009
9:37 pm

I couldn’t agree more Sekou — Marvin is the only starter-quality 3 that we have on the team. If we get him locked up for 5 years, the Hawks will have kept the nucleus of the team together and added a valueable piece to the guard rotation – not bad, when just a couple of weeks ago everything was up in the air. Can’t wait til Wed. to see what Chills and Anderson decide to do. I’m hoping Chills might be a bargaining chip in aquiring another big.

outlaw30079

July 12th, 2009
9:40 pm

People keep saying bring in these big name bigs they are not coming
1. they wont to go to a team that will win a title(no matter what u think we are not there yet)
2. they will be 3rd in line starter Horford — 1st off the the bench Zaza(u have to look at the money)
so i say either try bring Anderson over try sign Hollins or use some of that money go get Hakeem Olajuwon (the money u pay him will not count against the cap) to work with da bigs we have now between Solo, Morris, and Siler with his help one of them have got to be a solid player off the bench in the #rd spot 6 points 5 rebounds thats all u can try get from the 3rd person in line

ATLJBO

July 12th, 2009
9:41 pm

Will the hawks sign david andersen ?

DKRIB

July 12th, 2009
10:01 pm

Hey Sekou, did you “copy” my quote ..”curious case of Marvin Williams”? I wrote an article with the title on peachtreehoops!

nunna yo bizznezz

July 12th, 2009
10:05 pm

don’t get it twisted yall..
we still got othello..
should he start over marvin,heck naw..
but,we should sign marvin before he gets on da phone and talk with childress,and letting him tell marv that,”hey dog,its not bad over here,and they got brothers over here who can cut yo hair too”!!
we as black know how hard it is to go to a foreign country and not find hair care products or stylist that we need..

get him before j-chills gets to him..PLEASE!!

dap01

July 12th, 2009
10:08 pm

Sekou: I agree, Marvin fits with what is needed for this team. If he could continue to evolve into a well rounded player who can SHOOT (something that the Hawks need) then, the Hawks have a chance to keep growing.

Sekou: Could you touch on what RandMo and others are working on this summer?

RealSquawk

July 12th, 2009
10:10 pm

It worries me that he did not say he was completely healed. He might want to start eating some vitamins. Good to hear they are close to a deal number wise. That leaves anderson and childress. if we can’t convinve anderson to come here then we need to trade him for a big. and if non of that works out we need to have the same game plan for chillz. Even though in an ideal world I would much rather see us move Anderson for another big. And then bring chillz back even if it is only for 1 to 3 years.

Hoops

July 12th, 2009
10:11 pm

Assuming the Hawks re-sign Marvin and if West accepts his QO, the Hawks will have two positions to fill. Most people agree that they will be either a SF, PF, or C. This is a list that most people think the Hawks are looking at (in no particular order):

R. Hollins
S. Jones
D. Andersen
Siler
C. Wilcox
Gooden
L. Powe
J. Childress

What two players from that list do you think the Hawks will sign for the last two roster spots?

outlaw30079

July 12th, 2009
10:15 pm

Jones & Siler they not going 2 get all that much playing time y break the bank

Rex D

July 12th, 2009
10:16 pm

All of this is nice . . . But who is going to guard Shaq and Dwight Howard for us? . . . The Lakers had two seven footers to deal with Dwight . . . And because both had offensive game, they made him work on both ends of the floor . . .

Tommy

July 12th, 2009
10:19 pm

Any word on a potential big like Theo or Wilcox? Are the Hawks talking to anyone else?

The Truth

July 12th, 2009
10:29 pm

Sekou

Your comment:

“The length the Hawks used to their advantage across the frontline with Williams, Josh Smith and Al Horford is more critical than ever.”

This is the main selling point as to why Marvin is so important to the team. As a SF, it is mainly his length along with his other skills such as rebounding and shooting.


This has been echoed by others in the past and may explan why BK picked him. His physical attribute is a standout

Nookah

July 12th, 2009
10:32 pm

Just an FYI – Siler in summer league vs. Rockets…….

Played 24.29mins – 6 pts; 7 Rbds; 1 block; 3 of 5 from the field; 4 fouls; 1 TO

Go Hawks!!!

darrell starks

July 12th, 2009
10:45 pm

There is lot of ways the hawks can go with this but first thing first is to sign marvin.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

July 12th, 2009
10:48 pm

What are the hawks going to do with chill we cant let him go for nothing.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

July 12th, 2009
10:53 pm

1 more big trade for amar’e will put the hawks in the top 3 in the east like i say we have to keep josh and joe.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

Keep It Real from Cleveland

July 12th, 2009
10:58 pm

Are you guys serious about M. Williams?

He is a role player and they play well with-out him! He does not play defense so what he has length, he does not use it!

Marvin is also injury prone!

Dump him and get Chris Wilcox put him in the post and let Al Hortford play power forward!

Keep It Real from ATL

July 12th, 2009
11:09 pm

Keep It Real From Cleveland, I have one name to say to you……..Jordon Crawford!!!

Stoned Mountain

July 12th, 2009
11:14 pm

you tell ‘em Cleveland.

bye Marvin

darrell starks

July 12th, 2009
11:17 pm

2009 ATLANTA HAWKS
STARTER BIBBY, JOE, MARVIN, JOSH, AMAR’E
BENCH TEAGUE, JAMAL, MOE, WILCOX, ZAZA,
RESERVE WEST, SOLO
TOP 3 IN THE EAST
PAYROLL 76 MILL
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

BrittishAnger

July 12th, 2009
11:32 pm

Good stuff Nookah, was looking around for those stats and couldn’t find them….

niremetal

July 12th, 2009
11:43 pm

JOR-DAN CRAW-FORD (*bang, bang, bang-bang-bang*), JOR-DAN CRAW-FORD (*bang, bang, bang-bang-bang*)

KevinA

July 12th, 2009
11:52 pm

Chills/Marvin/Flip/ Gooden and Solo need at min a one year deal. If we are over the cap we can dump Crawford for a draft pick in a month and 1/2. get-er-done

KevinA

July 12th, 2009
11:54 pm

niremetal – your estimation of what a Jordan Crawford will cost. Dump West?

Nique

July 12th, 2009
11:54 pm

I’d love to see up pick up Gooden, Odom, or Wilcox at the PF & if R. Morris isn’t gonna play, cut him, let Solo walk & pick up Theo as well. Resign Marvin too. giving us a line up of PG.Bibby/Teague SG. JJ/Crawford SF Williams/Evens PF Smith/ Gooden, Odom, or Wilcox C Horford/Zaza/Theo. add our 2cnd round pick this year & Chill or whatever we get for him & that’s 1 hell of a squad!

Nique

July 13th, 2009
12:05 am

How about a Chill’s for Arron Afflalo trade, he’s said to be on the move & is a good defender with range because of his wingspand. I’d do a trade for him & Detroit’s 2cnd next year for Chills if he’s unwilling to sign with us, but wants to come back to the NBA.

chris o bomb

July 13th, 2009
12:05 am

yes… a intricate part of the team, but he out of four years i believe, he’s clearly an outside shooter like his days at unc. if another team really wants him, sign and trade maybe. otherwise, give him what he’s worth from the proven years. if he doesnt get anything in the market but needing more, give him a two year deal with options at about 3.5- 5.5 a year. he clearly cannot make more than j. chill or hasnt shown the great potential as j smooth. j smooth— make a better percentage on foul shots and less attempts at three’s and you’re a top 25 player in the league! just because(great court vision and a real threat on highlight passes too)

chris o bomb

July 13th, 2009
12:15 am

by the way… thwg. this is the south. until great things happen, it’s still hard on us with the front office… #21. with that said, i can see and hope we are moving forward with sund. and can you get these amateurs CLOWNS in hyping up the crowd, lets start to ACT MORE PROFESSIONAL. the falcons does not need it, and the braves stopped this season(thank goodness… because of payroll. haha)

chris o bomb

July 13th, 2009
12:25 am

wilkins forever! we as fans need to push something for him(at least turn one of those chick fil a cow’s in honor of him… geez. no mj but… ) at philips!!! j crawford and a little less paul(teague)! yes. thank you SUND!

Grip

July 13th, 2009
12:47 am

How many injuries does it take to “give up” on a player??? Dude is 23 with back problems, and a host of other stuff, I promise you the most diehard hawk fan can not name half the injuries dude has had. Signing him back is not a good move. Seku, I will say I told you so on this one, I believe he has scolious too.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
12:51 am

Grip,

Scoliosis? Think you’re getting Marvin mixed up with Tracy McGrady, dude.

outlaw30079

July 13th, 2009
1:41 am

U talking about Williams being hurt alot wow but everyone wont to bring in Amare Stoudemire he still not right

whats up with all the West luv do we realy need him i would take gardner over him????????

Stirg d'Nahsif

July 13th, 2009
1:48 am

Grip; “Fess”

Marvin been limping since we signed him. For some reason, though, he straighten up when the ball is in the air. The kid can hop. I feel you, though. Flip him and give Chill a lucrative contract to get back. Teach J-Smoove how to shoot outside, so he can play three and four…and lets get big Siler in here. All we need is for him to grab double digits in rebounds, nightly, and block a few shots; he don’t even have to shoot. With Horford at his natural position, four, he’s capable of giving you twenty points a night. There you have it.

What’s up?

outlaw30079

July 13th, 2009
2:21 am

i dont see Siler getting double digits in blocks if he play he will be our 3 center at best (coach woodson dont play rookies) but i do see 6 rebounds and 6-8 points from your #3 center is solid
Horford 12 points – 12 rebounds – 2 blocks
Zaza 8 points – 8 rebounds – 5 fouls
Siler 6 points – 6 rebounds – 5 fouls – 1 block
Solo 8 ponts – 6 rebounds – 1 block
thats 34 points 32 rebounds 4 blocks and 20 fouls if we can get this from our center spot we will be solid

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
2:23 am

….well if Rick is just Going to let flip walk, he should at least sign Gerald Green…

LeBron doesn’t deserve to be in this commercial. Besides he’s practically maried. Shoulda Been me!!!!!!

Typical Retarded Hawks Fan

July 13th, 2009
2:40 am

Sekou, since the Cavs may lose LeBron next year, how about we compensate them this year?

Mo Evans + Randolph Morris for LeBron?

Or since Bibby will only be here 3 more years, why not trade those 2 players for Devin Harris?

outlaw30079

July 13th, 2009
2:49 am

i would luv gerald green way more up side than west

Jason

July 13th, 2009
2:50 am

Nice — a new blog 4 days after the previous one with no new articles or any news of our players.

“and that he is lifting and doing court work these days in anticipation of another strong season.”

Good to hear our RFA #2 overall pick is working out — never could’ve imagined that one.

Nice also that half this blog is from the one 2 blogs ago

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:15 am

Mike

July 13th, 2009
5:33 am

Sekou, I think you are right to point to the Charlie V deal as a guide for Marvin, but don’t you think his agent will also point to the Bargnani deal (5 years, $50 mill)? I would take Marvin over either of those guys in a heartbeat — if nothing else, he’s a very good defender while they are both poor defenders — but in this market $10 mill a year seems to be too much. The Bargnani deal has received very little press, but it does make me worry that Marvin will insist on at least as much.

NCBravesFan

July 13th, 2009
5:46 am

Sekou: hearing anything about JChills, since the deadline is Wednesday for him to decide?

The Real Fan

July 13th, 2009
6:17 am

Unless we sign a veteran big we have moved back in the East.

Wabe

July 13th, 2009
6:22 am

Don’t think Chills will make up his mind till Wednesday..

And why do i have a funny feeling he’ll be returning to Greece?

Don’t think Sund will get anything finalized or done until he knows whats going on w/Chills.

And Mike, be careful, calling MARVIN a good defender in here will get a few people riled up and going off, won’t mention no names…

Give it a day or so,
they’re coming for you man…

realistic

July 13th, 2009
6:46 am

Marvin Williams has a questionable back, and I was thinking that the first year I examined him in a Hawks uniform. He must have had bad posture as a child. I would let someone else over pay for his services.

"Snapper" Jones

July 13th, 2009
6:58 am

How old is that boy? He walks like an old, old man.

Big Ray

July 13th, 2009
7:02 am

Waiting on Childress…

Not worried about Marvin…

And not paying attention to Clyde…

The Truth

July 13th, 2009
7:13 am

What is Teague doing these days?

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
7:27 am

Probably busy gaining 20lbs and getting comfortable shooting the NBA three.

Roberto

July 13th, 2009
7:28 am

Regards from Spain,

just writing in order to inform you that Kenny Grant (David Andersen`s representative) has commented that they have rejected the proposal made from Hawks in order to join Andersen to the team, as the quantities offered were really low.

I will update you with more news

Sekou Smith

July 13th, 2009
7:50 am

We’ll know more on Childress in the next 48 hours. I haven’t heard anything in the past 48 hours that leads me to believe a good sign-and-trade deal is forthcoming. So whatever goes down along those lines would have to get stirred up now, with the deadline looming. The fact is, Childress has the option of returning to Greece, which gives him a lucrative out if nothing to his liking is cooked up in the NBA.

BAnger offered up this list of bigs still out there: Mikki Moore, Boston Celtics
Johan Petro, Denver Nuggets
Rasho Nesterovic, Indiana Pacers
Jason Collins, Minnesota Timberwolves
Chris Wilcox, New York Knickerbockers
Theo Ratliff, Philadelphia 76ers
Calvin Booth, Sacramento Kings
Jake Voskuhl, Toronto Raptors
Jarron Collins, Utah Jazz

Say the Hawks snatch one of those guys and bring back restricted FA solomon Jones, is that enough to work with on the frontline? I don’t know. I think the Hawks are best served by keeping a couple roster spots open this season so they can be flexible come the trade deadline (if it’s clear that they are still lacking in the frontcourt).

Presser today for both Bibby and Zaza at 3 p.m. More updates later.

terrell barron

July 13th, 2009
8:11 am

Steve, I agree with everything you said about Marvin, except the part about “making tough layups”. When was the last time you saw Marvin finish off a play with an “and 1″? Seriously. He usually falls down, or has the ball knocked out of his hands. Either that, or he just throws up a prayer, hoping to get the call. I like him. Just sayin.

terrell barron

July 13th, 2009
8:14 am

Johan Petro? Wow! Is he still in the League? Whoever drafted him, should definitely be out of the League. lol!

RedTailHawk

July 13th, 2009
8:15 am

This is all very interesting but I can’t get over the feeling that no matter what the Hawks do, they will finish no better than 4th again and get trashed in the first round.

Why? Woody will still be the coach. I think the Hawks improvement has been due to the simple fact that the young players have gained experience and are developing their natural potential without a great deal of coaching help.

This will be Woodys lame duck year and he will do everything he can to win in the short run. If that means playing his starters to death, not developing Teague and Iso Joe again; so be it.

I hope that I am wrong but I don’t think so. Looking forward to NEXT year.

Jfreak

July 13th, 2009
8:21 am

In my opinion if the Hawks sign Marvin he should start over Smith. At least until Smith can prove some maturity in his game. Marvin is solid at just about everything and provides the Hawks with scoring and defense. Smith does one thing Great and everything else average or poor. Things like free throws and those silly long jump shots! At this point Marvin is the better of the two players! In my opinion??

Mike

July 13th, 2009
8:37 am

I think a lot of you guys are too hard on Marvin. He is a very good defender now, and that part of his game has really developed the last couple of years. He especially seems to relish the challenge of taking on guys like Lebron, and he does as well as you could expect someone to do on him. As for finishing at the rim, terrell barron, I think your description was accurate about Marvin when he first came into the league, but he is much stronger now and does often finish after contact. When he gets it into his head to go to the hole repeatedly he can get a whole team into foul trouble. It seems like too many people got their idea of Marvin set in his first year or two, and they mostly focused on his flaws because of the Chris Paul thing. But he has come a long way.

ATLJBO

July 13th, 2009
9:27 am

HGN

July 13th, 2009
9:28 am

I think the Hawks could use another big man. Al Horford is a 4 playing out of position at the 5. Thus we have no one on the floor taller than a ‘listed’ 6′10″. In order to effectively compete with the many good and taller front lines in The Eastern Conference ( Cleveland; Orlando; Boston ) we will need more height….As for Marvin , re-sign him. There is no one better available out there right now. Also, lets bring back Chills. He provides reliable backup, depth, defense and versatility. Therefore, in order to compete for a Championship the Hawks need to do 3 things. 1)Re-sign Marvin; 2)Bring in another big man; and 3) Re-sign Childress.

Dan

July 13th, 2009
9:32 am

Chris Wilcox athletic Center get it done …..call it a day !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LANcTB21mVA

Anakin Joe

July 13th, 2009
9:44 am

Sekou, as a professional writer, I trust that you intentionally used the word “healing” as opposed to “healed”. I don’t recall when the Cavs series ended, but I’m guessing that it has been a good 7-8 weeks and Marvin is still not healed. I think that is significant. Not only does that speak to how banged up he was when he was trying to give us something in the post-season, but also suggests that Sund needs to be cautious as he negotiates this contract. Again, I vote for a 3-year deal in the interest of all involved. Maybe the same contract Kidd signed, 3/$25M.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
9:58 am

Sekou,

Have to disagree with you. Marvin’s length means nothing because he plays small. I don’t think I have ever seen him block a shot in 3 years. Chills can rebound just as good as Marvin can. Chills is better defensively. He is more versatile. He finishes better, has better handles. The only thing Marvin does better is shoot, and he is not a big threat doing that. I would resign him for around 4 or 5 million per, but nothing over that.

I MUS WRITE-

July 13th, 2009
10:01 am

I hope Marvin gets his deal done soon…….. The way he’s improved every year im confident he will be a major peice in this team going to the next level.

AC Law…. I knew GS would’nt be a good fit for that yungn, The man has no jumper at all and he play’s timid. Anthony morrow the former GTech baller is alot better IMO… He will soon be in Nellies dog house because he wont produce when given time. By mid season Ac will be baking brownies and gathering warm ups for the rest of the team.

Flip…Dam it, I knew we couldnt sign him back- I really wanted him back on this team. Congratulations to him tho- signing a multi year deal he deserves it and plays hard when called on-Im gonna miss his -I dont give a F…k/street ball mentality… I just hope he doesnt go to any of the teams in our division-MIA,CHA,ORL

Sean Williams!!!-…………Clyde is at it again..YAWN

I would trade Chills rights for him tho LOL

The only player on NJ team I would deal horford for is B Lopez and they would have to throw in a pick as well……..

I agree with ? Smoove has got to make better decisions and reign in his shot selection. I dont care what type god given ability u have, If u dont use that tool between your ears you’ll be average at best- I look for roughly the same numbers this year -Not becuz I dont think he can improve but -our backcourt will eat 50% af the shots -throw Crawford in there and its more like 65%………

Anakin Joe

July 13th, 2009
10:03 am

Sekou, why don’t you give Woody the phone number for Terry Mills. Just read where he wants to get into coaching. Dude was a nice offensive player back in his day. Maybe he could fly down and spend a month with our bigs as a “consultant”. I’m guessing that Mills can teach our bigs more offense in a month than Tyrone Hill could teach them in 2 years.

You know, its funny that Josh is working with Steve Smith and Horford is working with Mark Price. In a gurad-heavy offense, learn from former guards (I guess)? Maybe Marvin will get some pointers from cats like Vince Carter, Stakehouse and other ex-Tar Heel players.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
10:04 am

Plus the fact that the guy is still walking around with a back brace, should be a real concern. He is injury prone, and will probably stay injured because of how clumsy he is. Please save this post and remember it in a year or two. Don’t say I did not tell you so.

Steve,

“Marvin is arguably the most talented player on the team.”

Come on dude, are you serious. You sound like Niremetal with that stupid statement.

Chris M

July 13th, 2009
10:09 am

I agree that Woody is fighting for his job and will not be willing to play his younger players. But the neat thing is that it won’t matter…. Sund will get rid of Woody when he can convince ownership that we could do much better without him. Sund seems to be pretty smart!! I am not to sure about the ownership group!

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
10:09 am

Remind me Rod, how many free throws do you get for drawing a charge? And how many games of D1 ball did you play?

I MUS WRITE-

July 13th, 2009
10:12 am

Big men…… Give me Hollins/Wilcox or Nesterovich and G Siler if he plays well at veterans camp. Dump Solo and R.Morris

Is there any way we could get Jamario Moon for Chills rights or for Mo evans in a trade.

Nesterovic and Moon would be good additions -sign Marv and we’re ready for battle……

Does anybody know where Flip might be going

Kevin M

July 13th, 2009
10:14 am

Marvin isn’t going for a 3 year deal. He is looking to cash in now on his first big contract. He gets a decent raise (I predicted somewhere between 9/10M) and he comes back once his back if fully healed.
Truly, he is our best defender at the present for LeBron and we need his size on the front line.
Marvin isn’t going to start over Smith, jFreak. He is going to start with him. Marvin will not be a PF for this team. If anyone, it will be Horford, but Smoove would have to be traded.
We will see the same starting 5 next year, with more depth. I don’t see either Chills or Flip coming back this year to sit on the bench and wait their turn. Chills cannot provide what Marvin does, and we now have JJ, Bibby, JCraw and Teague. If anyone should get a slot after last year, it is Flip.
Whether he likes to pass or not doesn’t matter. He takes good shots and is very confident. IMO, I take his shot selection over Bibby.
Now whether we improve or not depends on how we play against Cleveland.
I have confidence in this team versus any team other than the Cavs.

I MUS WRITE-

July 13th, 2009
10:20 am

agreed -Y is Mario stiil here when gerald green a player with skill and size is out there for the cheap….. Mario’s my dude -talk to him from time to time but im about bettering our team……Maybe he really is woddys pet Attack dawg…

darrell starks

July 13th, 2009
10:21 am

What if!!!!!!!!!!!!
2009 ATLANTA HAWKS
STARTER BIBBY, JOE, MARVIN, JOSH, HORFORD,
BENCH FLIP, JAMAL, CHILL, WILCOX, ZAZA,
RESERVE TEAGUE, SOLO
THE DEEPEST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

Big Ray

July 13th, 2009
10:22 am

“I’m guessing that Mills can teach our bigs more offense in a month than Tyrone Hill could teach them in 2 years.”

Best post of the day so far…

Big Ray

July 13th, 2009
10:23 am

I MUS,

I worry that Siler is RandMo II. Could be wrong. I figure he’ll get a camp invite.

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
10:27 am

Sekou,

I like your idea to leave a roster spot open. B/c I think if Ben Wallace doesn’t get traded then PHX will buy him of his contract. Then the Hawks can sign him for the cheap….

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
10:34 am

Nireclown,

4 years of D-1. Did not take the time to add the games dummy. Have you ever played? Boys club? Little league?, Middle school, high school, intramurals? Oh, I forgot you told me you never played. Wow, I will really listen to what you have to say.

“I would be willing to lay 4:1 odds that Josh will never be the leading scorer on a playoff time.” Nire

fudd21

July 13th, 2009
10:35 am

Rod, I was wondering what took you so long to respond. I figured you would be the first one to disagreew with SS on this one.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
10:39 am

fudd21,

You know I had to get in on this one. Would have been first, but I had to let the clown (Nire) get his rocks off. I’m surprised he did not type in “First”.

I MUS WRITE-

July 13th, 2009
10:39 am

Yeah Ray I think he is coming to camp- R Morris is allergic to contact -I think Siler will smash sum people -thats an upgrade already

fudd21

July 13th, 2009
10:42 am

Maybe I’m thinking of the wrong person, but the Terry Mills I remember was a 6′10 240 PF who would rather camp out on the perimeter and hoist 20 foot jumpers than be down in the post abusing people. If that’s the case I don’t want him working with smoove.

someonehastosayit

July 13th, 2009
10:42 am

rod,
i seriously doubt you played (probably rode the bench) d-1 ball because of your lack of being able to recongnize game. there’s much more to basketball than dunking and blocking shots

Wabe

July 13th, 2009
10:44 am

Well someone mentioned Marvin,

and Rod is here.

Priceless.

Gotta love the consistency.

I MUS WRITE-

July 13th, 2009
10:45 am

Rod on the last blog Nirmental said he was a banger with post moves and hustle….. Thats cool if you’re playing park pick up games with teen agers,but gettn after it with grown men or DI DII players is a whole other animal.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
10:49 am

someonehastosayit

OK

[...] Bibby (three years, $18 million) and center Zaza Pachulia (four years, $19 million), a possible agreement soon with small forward Marvin Williams (possible 2009-10 salary: $7.5 million) and projecting Mario West signing a qualifying offer ($1 [...]

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
11:12 am

Rod,

I’m sorry, but anyone who played 1 game of D-1 ball would know that offensive fouls never lead to free throws.

This is just too easy. It’s like watching a dog chase his tail.

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
11:15 am

My goodness. Jeff Schultz hasn’t written an article about the hawks in in weeks and his upcoming blog suggest Sund needs a increase in pay. For what? I give Sund credit for the Crawford deal. However, he only re-sign 2 (possibly 3) players that he inherited to modest contracts. Why should that merit an increase????

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
11:19 am

Rod,

I played JV ball in high school, but quit after my sophomore year after I busted my knee. The highlight of my “career” was playing in the youth Maccabi games.

I have little doubt that you are a better player on the court than me. But that doesn’t mean jack when you’re talking about analyzing the game. Remind me, how did Isiah Thomas do as a coach compared to Greg Popovich?

Even if you did play ball in college (which you obviously didn’t, or else you’d know basic things like the rules regarding fouls and the penalty), it wouldn’t change the fact that all you do is obsess about Marvin and talk out of your butt all day.

As I said – it’s like a dog chasing his tail. You don’t even realize how stupid you look.

GeeMack

July 13th, 2009
11:20 am

Sekou

I guess my question would be is Marvin a superstar talented as predicted when he was drafted? I just think right now the hawks would be better served playing Josh @ 3 his natural spot and Al @ 4 his natural spot, and Zaza at 5. This betters the areas we got killed in the majority of our 13 losses by 10 or more points when we were badly out rebound.

chaz

July 13th, 2009
11:25 am

wilcox would be a great upgrade over solo and a solid backup playing with zaza, but he is still really a PF who doesn’t block shots. we desperately need a defensive presence in the middle. someone like camby/kaman/dalembert would be great but what do we have to offer besides childress to make the contracts match? if ratliff can still play he might be the most realistic and affordable alternative

fudd21

July 13th, 2009
11:29 am

GeeMack,
What about Josh’s game makes you say that SF is his “natural spot”

GeeMack

July 13th, 2009
11:30 am

The only thing the Hawks are missing is a superstar player. We have all the other ingredient of a Champioship caliber team, and Marvin was suppose to be that player.

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
11:33 am

Rod,

You said this about Marvin: “I don’t think I have ever seen him block a shot in 3 years.”

Hey Rod, Marvin’s been here for 4 years, and in that time he’s blocked 126 shots.

You haven’t seen ANY of them? He blocked 39 shots in the 61 games he played in last year. And you didn’t see ANY of them?

Weren’t YOU the one questioning whether another poster actually WATCHED the games?

If Marvin blocked 39 shots and you didn’t see a single one, then I think we will ALL have to question whether or not YOU actually watched the games.

Your hyperbole doesn’t win your argument, it weakens it.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
11:35 am

Nireclown,

Yeah, just like I told you early in the year that Trevor Ariza was better than Marvin, and everyone said I was crazy. OK. Once again.

“I would be willing to lay 4:1 odds that Josh will never be the leading scorer on a playoff time.” Nire

I wouldn’t lay those odds if I were you. What if I took you up on your bet? I got 5,000 that says you are wrong. Would you be able to afford Law school? $20,000 is a lot of cash for someone in school. You played JV? HA. I’m in DC 5 or 6 times a year. Be glad to meet you any time. Matter of fact, this year, I will be in DC for the Hawks games there, get with me. I’ll have a ticket for you. I want to see if you will talk so tough without a keyboard. I put the offer out there. Take me up on it tough guy.

GeeMack

July 13th, 2009
11:35 am

Look at his game he runs the floor, knows how to get to the basket. He just needs to work on his jump shot 15 feet and closer. He is not a power player by any stretch. That why we constantly get out rebounded and out muscled in the post.

Dan23

July 13th, 2009
11:42 am

I believe the Sund is doing it the right way. He is keeping a core of young players together. Marvin has increased his numbers each year. What the team has needed was experience and depth. They have been gaining the experience and now need to add the depth. Crawford and Teague help in the backcourt. Now they need to address frontcourt. This is where somehow keeping Chills would really help. But, if what Sekou believes is true, hopefully they can bring back some depth for the frontcourt in a sign and trade. But I think keeping him would help more. Does anyone know if Sund has had conversations with Wilcox’s people?

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
11:45 am

Wilcox is actuall a little shorter than Horford, But as a Backup PF I really like him…..that still doesn’t thange the fact that we need lenght against teams like the Lakers/Cavs

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chris-Wilcox-4856/stats/leaders/

Ken Strickland

July 13th, 2009
11:47 am

ROD FROM COLLEGE PARK-I don’t understand your reasoning. You went to great lengths in offering a list of your perceptions of Marvins shortcomings. Then you stated you’d have no problem resigning him, but for no more that 4-5M. Tell me, will paying him less money make his height more revelant, improve his rebounding, DEF, shotblocking, shooting and scoring and ball handling?

Marvin averaged .64BPG last yr, and judging from your negative assessment of him, you’ve missed most of the things he’s managed to accomplish. Too many fans allow personal issues and feelings to interfere with sound judgement, and try to justify these personal feelings and issue by exaggerating their perceptions of the player in question.

let’s assume your comparison of Chills and Marvin is correct. Chills in no longer in play and definitely isn’t coming back to the Hawks, but Marvin is still in play and will be back. So why waste time and effort comparing the two when Marvin is the only option of the 2, unless you’re trying to justify you personal dislike for him and/or the way he plays?

There have been numerous explanations for the Hawks problems. We’ve heard about JJ’s lack of vocal leadership, Woodsons coaching limitations, Marvin’s passiveness, Bibby’s poor DEF, Horford not being a true center, Josh’s attitude or immaturity, Woodson’s limited OFF etc. Well, it not an either or situation, but a combination of most if not all of the above.

I’ve personally focused on Woodson as the main cause of our problems because I believe in cause and effect. I look at the Hawks situation the same way I look at constructing a house. If the foundation isn’t properly laid, the rest of the house will always have problems. It doesn’t matter how much time, money and effort you spend fixing cracked walls and ceilings(avoiding the real problem by blaming players and constantly proposing trades and FA acquisitions as a quick fix) as long as you don’t attempt to fix the cause of those cracks(BK tried to fix our flawed foundation when he wanted to fire Woodson), nothing will get better in the longrun(draftee’s not being developed to contribute off the bench or replace vets when they leave, and starters breaking down due to overuse). You can try saving face by rationalizing that as long as the outside of the house still looks good(like making the playoffs and winning 47gms)you can ignore the real cause of the problems, the faulty foundation.

If we hired Nate McMillan, who’s almost certain to be available after this season, our foundational problems will be resolved.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
11:47 am

Wilcox is Also only 26, that’s niice.

DAVID

July 13th, 2009
11:48 am

Each year Marvin’s game has gotten better, he’s going to have to continue doing that, because the Hawks could have one of the best back courts in the league (Johnson and CP3 or Johnson and Deron)…. The Hawks back court is going to do damage with the addition of Crawford, if Childress comes back, the Hawks should be top 3 in the Eastern Conference…Would love to see them get bigger in 2010 B-O-S-H!!!!!!!

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
11:49 am

Sautee,

While your facts do make sense the key is I said:

“I don’t think I have ever seen him block a shot in 3 years.”

That statement does not make it a fact, it is what I have seen. People will argue that Josh can’t shoot three pointers, but I’m sure he has made some in his career. It was not an arguement, it was what I have seen. The arguement was based on the fact that his length is why we need him. I disagree. How about comparing his blocks with another guy his size and position like Granger, and tell me how big he plays. Playing big to me means blocks, rebounds, and some sort of intimidation. Marvin can only rebound. Good try.

O'Brien

July 13th, 2009
11:54 am

In Marvin’s 4 years, he has played in 284 games (71 games per season average), and he started 209 of them. However, last season, he missed 21 games, and in 06-07, he missed 18 games. And his back injury is a concern, because they can be recurring. I would offer him 4 years, $30 mil. Thats an average of $7.5 mil per year. I am also okay with the 3 years, $25 mil somebody suggested.

What kind of contract do you offer someone who has not fully recovered from their injuries? If I’m the Hawks, I would take it slow with Marvin.

And we agree that Mo’ Evans is too small to play backup SF, so a guy like Gerald Green would be a good pickup (low risk, high reward).

Reggie

July 13th, 2009
11:56 am

He’s had 126 blocks in his career. I guess you haven’t watched many games. You are insane if you don’t think we have to get Marvin on this team. He doesn’t block many shots but we got Smith for that.

dap01

July 13th, 2009
11:59 am

Sekou: What is the scouting report on Theo Ratliff at this stage of his career? If he could contribute a small amount pf PT then he may be a very cost effective option?

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
12:03 pm

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
12:03 pm

Ken Strickland,

While I agree with your argument about Woodson, we disagree about Marvin. Simple as that. I don’t believe his a top 15 small forward in the league. That is why I would not pay him the kind of money he is asking for. If he gets 7 to 8 millon a year, he would be the 3rd or 4th highest paid player on the team. He was not the 4th best player on our team last year obviously, because WE PLAYED BETTER WITHOUT HIM. I personally feel like the guy would not be starting on a number of teams in the league if it were not for his draft position. Woodson actually helps him. But I did notice towards the end of the year, Woodson lost faith in him, probably because of the injury. Childress was brought up because he does not want to play for the Hawks, because you favorite coach would not start him over a guy that he proved he was better than. Any person that is competitive would feel the same way. Maybe if Marvin is out of the mix, he would consider coming back.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
12:08 pm

ARRRGH!!! STUPID AJC ATE MY POST!!!!

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
12:10 pm

Ariose,

Looks like 07-08 was better to me. I don’t see the improvement. Maybe Sautee sees something I don’t. He is good with numbers and percentages.

07-08 ATL 80 80 34.6 0.462 0.100 0.822 1.5 4.2 5.7 1.7 1.0 0.4 1.59 2.80 14.8

08-09 ATL 61 59 34.3 0.458 0.355 0.806 1.8 4.5 6.3 1.3 0.9 0.6 1.15 2.10 13.9

O'Brien

July 13th, 2009
12:16 pm

Rod,

I am not a big fan of Marvin, but based on the market and the Hawks need and team make-up, I hope we bring him back (for a reasonable price, assuming he is healthy). However, you said “Simple as that. I don’t believe he is a top 15 small forward in the league”.

He is not a top 5 SF, and top 10 might be debatable, but could you really name 15 SF in the league who you believe are better than Marvin? I dont think you can name 15 SF and find anyone (coaches, scouts, GM’s fans) to agree with you on those 15, that they are better than Marvin.

Jim Tanner

July 13th, 2009
12:16 pm

Dear Mr. Rod from College Park,

I received notification this morning that you broke the restraining order against my Client, Marvin Williams. The security guards at Mr. Williams’ house said that they found you at the front gate to his house again, this time holding two dozen red and white roses and screaming “IF I CAN’T HAVE HIM, NO ONE CAN!!!.” Since this is the third time this has happened in the past month, I feel the need to directly address you in public since the private attempts to stop you have not wokred.

As you know, we got the restraingig order in the first place because you were caught following Marvin to the Kwik-e-mart and attempting to peel the paint off his car as a souveneir.

We understand that you are still upset about Marvin posterizing you in the game you played against him while he was at UNC and that you suffered severe mental damages and obsessive-compulsive as a result. We had hoped that the psych counseling that the court ordered after you sent Marvin your 24th love letter (to match his uniform number, we know) would help. But clearly it has not. Marvin needs to focus on his game this summer in case Joe Johnson gets TIRED again, and the distraction created by your stalking makes that hard.

If you’re stalking behavior continues though we’ll have to call the police. Given the sexual treatment you received in jail after you were arrested for attempting stealing several pairs of Mr. Williams’ underwear, we are certain that you do no want it to come to that again.

Sincerely,
James Tanner, Attorney at Law

EJH

July 13th, 2009
12:24 pm

If anyone care to Mention Marvin’s back injury could be a concern, but I am sure there are some clauses placed in the contract that protects the hawks organization or some form of insurance policy for any subsequent severe injury that he may have going forward. Marving is going to be a player in this league, he is only 22 about be to be 23, but the game people seem to be forgetting is the Game on the ROAd in Denver against Carmelo, where he matched him point for point and kept the hawks in the game by going for 30 points against an all-star olympian who was talking trash to Marvin all night on the floor. But marvin just when about his business as a professional; even though the hawks lost by 1 (110-109)they are not even in that game without his scoring and defense, because our supposedly All-Star did not show up, Marvin sitll has a lot of upside.

Snickers

July 13th, 2009
12:27 pm

Sekou is vastly overrating Marvin Williams game. I could not care any less about someones height and if thats the first thing you mention when talking about someones game, that is a problem. I would rather see Joe Johnson move to small forward and put Crawford and Bibby starting in the backcourt. I think that would make the team more dangerous offensively.

Marvin isnt even that fast or athletic and he seems to be injury prone, and I dont even agree about his temperament as he is too passive most of the time.

EJH

July 13th, 2009
12:28 pm

By the way when has our All-Star gone for 30 against a premier All-Star Olympian at the teams opposing position opponent (Kobe Bryant).

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
12:28 pm

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
12:30 pm

Reggie,

Divide 126 by 4 and tell me if I am crazy. A guy who us 6″9 with a 7 foot wingspan with 31 blocks a year. Compare that to Rudy Gay who averages about 70 blocks a year, Tayshaun Prince who is at about 50 per year, Gerald Wallace 80 per year, Melo (No defense) 33 a year, Durant 64 per year, Battier 77 per year, Travis Outlaw 56 per year…………
I am not insane, just look a the game a little differntly that most of you. 6′9 with a 7 foot wingspan, should result in many more blocks.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
12:32 pm

Apparently the AJC doesn’t like the very long diatribe that I had in store for you. After trying to post it multiple times, I think it’s time to call it quits….so forget it.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
12:33 pm

Snickers,

I agree.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
12:33 pm

I was talking to Rod btw…

MJ3

July 13th, 2009
12:33 pm

try it paragraph by paragraph ariose that’s what you have to do sometimes

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
12:39 pm

MJ3, I tried lol. Something about my wording is not agreeing with the system. It doesn’t matter. We’ve all been down this road before with Rod. It’s nothing new. ;-)

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
12:42 pm

EJH, Kobe didn’t get out of the TEENS against Joe this season either. Joe’s no slouch on defense. Especially when our winning SPECIFICALLY depends on him shutting down a player at his position.

Yupperz

July 13th, 2009
1:07 pm

The problem is that we need marvin to play perimeter D because jj doesn’t have the energy to run full-steam for 40 minutes on both ends, which is what he’s assked to do if he’s assigned to guard the other team’s best player on the perimeter. Marvin was the Hawks best perimeter defender last year before he got hurt, He usually held wheover he was guarding to their average or below, and made it so josh didn’t have to play help D so much.

People mentioned the game against Melo but there was also that game agauinst Clevland where he played awesome D on LeBron when he was on the floor and then LeBron TORCHED the hawks when Marvin went to the bench for a few minutes. And when we played Cleveland in the second round and Marvin was hurt and jj had to guard LeBron, it was awful because JJ didn’t have the energy to guard LeBron AND get buckets while he had the bad ankle. Anyway we need Marvin back or else we’re screwed.

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
1:17 pm

Rod,

You said this to me: “While your facts do make sense the key is I said:

“I don’t think I have ever seen him block a shot in 3 years.”

That statement does not make it a fact, it is what I have seen.”

OK, fine. Good try, but you’ve missed MY point, which was that if you watched the Hawks as much as you SAID, you CERTAINLY would have seen at least ONE out of 39 blocks in 61 games. LOL!

How could you have missed all 39 blocks and yet claim you watched the games?

I really thought you were a more astute and discerning basketball watcher than to miss all those blocks. Guess I was wrong.

It’s hyperbole again, Rod. Just like when you said Marvin fell 60% of the time he drove. For some reason you think making these wild-as$ed statements will convince someone of your point.

You weaken your own argument when you try to stretch what is credible.

And it’s not credible that you could have NEVER seen Marvin block a shot in 3 years, UNLESS you just really don’t watch very often.

Traceman

July 13th, 2009
1:43 pm

Many of you guys are funny with your criticisms of Marvin. All he has done is listen to his coach, get better every year and play his role without complaints. I wish everyone on the team would take that approach.

“When was the last time you saw Marvin finish a play wih an ‘and 1.’” Marvin had 19 “and 1’s” last year in 61 games. JJ had 22 in 79 games. Ron Artest had 17 in 69 games. Stephen Jackson had 14 in 59 games. Jason Richardson had 20 in 72 games. Kirilenko had 18 in 67 games. Heck Garnett only had 16 in 57 games. Marvin can improve his ability to finish but he is not nearly as bad as many would have you believe.

“I haven’t seen Marvin block a shot in 3 years.” He has blocked 102 shots in the last 3 years from the SF position and he improved his shotblocking this year to .6 bpg. I could be wrong but I strongly suspect that .6 bg for a SF is above the league average. Heck, many here are clamoring for Chris Wilcox who has only had .6 bpg once in his CAREEER as a PF/C.

“I would rather see Joe Johnson move to small forward and put Crawford and Bibby starting in the backcourt. I think that would make the team more dangerous offensively.” Sure it would. It would also make us the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA. JJ would be fine defending the 3 but bibby and Crawford are two of the worst defenders in the NBA at the PG and SG positions respectively. They can (and should) play together in spurts but starting them together would be a HUGe mistake in my opinion.

Tommy

July 13th, 2009
1:47 pm

Anyone who says Marvin doesnt play defense is an idiot. He played really solid defense against the top scorer on the other team several times last year.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
1:47 pm

Co-sign Traceman.

And Ariose – time’s getting short, man. Maybe we need to up our shoes-and-shine offer to Chill :)

cp

July 13th, 2009
1:49 pm

I think most of the people who don’t like Marvin still cant get over not taking CP3. Marvin is a good player. He looks a lot better than he did his first two years. He is probably our most efficient scorer. He puts up 14 points on like 10 shots a game. He could easily average around 18 or 19 if he was involved more in the offense. He is also a good perimeter defender. Childress is not as good as Marvin. Put Marvin on a team where he gets more touches and we would be saying how we let another player get away…….Yea its time to get over Mario and get a guy like Gerald Green in here. I would take Gardner over Mario…Sign Wilcox and call it a day.

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
1:49 pm

Trace,

good info

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
2:03 pm

O’brien

“He is not a top 5 SF, and top 10 might be debatable, but could you really name 15 SF in the league who you believe are better than Marvin?”

Sure

Durant, Melo, Gerald Wallace, Richard Jefferson, Artest, Battier, Lebron, Ariza, Josh Howard, Deng, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Outlaw, Rudy Gay, Al Thorton, Tayshaun Prince, Paul Pierce, Turk, Iggy, Granger………….. Is that 15 yet.

Nique

July 13th, 2009
2:05 pm

Sekou

Is there any talk of us bringing in Drew Gooden? He’d give us a scoring & rebounding threat of the bench unlike anything we’ve had at the PF. & also, I like the Wilcox & Theo chatter on here, (I’d also like to see Lamar Odom considered as well)but is there any of this same buzz going on in the front office?

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
2:06 pm

Nire, I think you’re right!!! ROFL hehehe!!!

Kevin M

July 13th, 2009
2:06 pm

Lots of personal agendas here……….

Here are the facts that remain true:
The Hawks core has gotten better every year, whether we like Woody as coach or not. As far as I know, he hasn’t signed an extension past this year. So, he will be here this year.
Marvin, Smoove, Horford are all improving on their game. They have some overlapping similarities, but they make up a good frontline. Better than Miami, Cleveland, or Detroit. Boston, that’s a different level right now.
Our backcourt has improved over the offseason. Our frontcourt still needs another ‘contributing’ body for 10-15 min. We need depth to be able to avoid ‘injury’ letdowns.
We are getting there. People can be realistic to expect this team coming in currently configured to push towards 50 wins. I would not have said that 2 years ago.
You can’t mess with the success. While we can pan for better things, we are currently handling the cap numbers very well, and we are getting guys signed to commitments that aren’t hurting us.
The 2 key areas this year; Smoove’s overall game and Crawford’s contribution. JCraw has to improve on Flip’s numbers if we are going to be a threat this year.

Ken Strickland

July 13th, 2009
2:07 pm

ROD FROM COLLEGE PARK-the period you claim to have noticed Woodson losing confidence if Marvin is the period in which he was injured. Also, how do you explain Woodson starting Marvin immediately upon his return, even though he wasn’t fully recovered from his injuries? Marvin is the 4th scoring option on our team, yet you’re making an issue of him supposedly not being in the top 15 among SF’s. Well, why don’t you make an issue of PG MBibby’s or PF JSmith’s rankings within their respective positions? It’s plainly obvious to everyone but you that Woodson, Sund and the SAASG don’t share your assessment of Marvin’s abilities or value to the team.

AND JUST TO SHOW HOW MISGUIDED YOU ARE IN YOUR ASSESSMENT OF MARVIN, YOUR ISSUES WITH HIS ABILITIES AND YOUR MISGUIDED STATEMENT CONCERNING HIM NOT BEING A TOP 15 SF, I’LL GIVE YOU MARVIN’S STATISTICAL RANKINGS AMONG SF’S.

PPG-13.9(15th), RPG-6.3(4th), APG-1.3(tied for 18th), BPG-.64(3rd), FG%-.458(7TH). These stats squarely places him well within the NBA’s top 15 SF’s, and that ain’t bad at all for a SF that’s the 4th option on his team.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
2:10 pm

“Many of you guys are funny with your criticisms of Marvin. All he has done is listen to his coach, get better every year and play his role without complaints. I wish everyone on the team would take that approach.”

07-08 ATL 80 80 34.6 0.462 0.100 0.822 1.5 4.2 5.7 1.7 1.0 0.4 1.59 2.80 14.8

08-09 ATL 61 59 34.3 0.458 0.355 0.806 1.8 4.5 6.3 1.3 0.9 0.6 1.15 2.10 13.9

Please explain how his 08-09 number are better than his 07-08 numbers. I was never good in math, but help me to understand what you are looking at.

Obrien,

I forgot Al Harrington, Stephen Jackson, and I like Jeff Green better than Marvin also. I think that’s 20 something. That’s why I would not pay him that kind of money.

MJ3

July 13th, 2009
2:13 pm

Rod you’re the one always pointing to stats as the reason marvin isn’t any good so how can you say battier, outlaw and ariza are ahead of him?

I counted 6 in that list better than marv – Lebron, durant, melo, pierce, iggy, and prince. The rest are up for debate. Remember that no one thought jj was one of the top 10 at his position back when he was the fourth option on Phenix

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
2:17 pm

Nire/Aroise,

Tell Chills you can hook him up with one of ATL finest Hair Salon for a year so they could wash and style his Fro’…

Rod,

Thats an impressive list but I wouldn’t take Ariza, Outlaw or Prince over Marvin…

MJ3

July 13th, 2009
2:18 pm

Rod, get real fool. He said marvin got better every year, not that his numbers are better. Anyone who actually watched the hawks before marvin got hurt knows that. The numbers don’t tell half the story in basketball. And if they do, answer my question – how do u justify placing battier, ariza, and outlaw ahead of marvin. Hell marvin’s numbers were about the same as Deng and Prince’s.

Marv came back this year with a smooth trey and great defense. oh wait u probably think that defense is just blocks and steals rihgt?

Mike

July 13th, 2009
2:19 pm

Does anybody understand the rules about Base Year Compensation Players? I keep hearing that’s what makes it harder to trade Childress. I think he will likely accept their one-year qualifying offer, which if they re-sign Marvin would put them in a bit of a bind. There wouldn’t be enough minutes at the 3 for Marvin, Mo, and Chills, especially since JJ will likely play there some with Crawford and Bibby. And they would still need more depth up front. I don’t think he wants to go back to Greece; by all accounts his game did not translate well there, plus there was the violence and such at the end of the year. His best option may be to call their bluff with the qualifying offer; if they don’t trade him he just plays out the year and is unrestricted next year. That’s not an insubstantial threat, since as a #6 pick he would make a good salary. I personally would like to see him back, so maybe it works out that way.

MJ3

July 13th, 2009
2:20 pm

And hey Rod your boy Josh’s numbers went down this yaer. I guess that means he was a worse player too huh?

Najeh Davenpoop

July 13th, 2009
2:24 pm

I can’t say I entirely disagree with Rod’s assessment of Marvin compared to other SFs in the league. I wouldn’t say he’s worse than Ariza, Outlaw, or Thornton, and I’m not sure that Prince isn’t a product of the system in Detroit, but all the other SFs Rod mentioned are better at this point. SF is a pretty deep position in the NBA, and Marvin is more or less average compared to other starting SFs in the league.

But Marvin has two things going for him right now — he does provide the Hawks with certain qualities (most importantly length and defensive versatility) that they cannot replace with anyone in the current free agent pool, and unlike most of the players Rod mentioned, he is still pretty young and has significant upside. I can justify paying him $8 million per year based on that. Put it this way — I’d definitely take him over Charlie V, who gets paid $8 million a year now.

And in fairness to Marvin, injuries have slowed his development every time he looks like he’s about to turn the corner, so maybe if he can stay healthy for a full season we can see him realize some of his potential.

Anakin Joe

July 13th, 2009
2:24 pm

nire & Ariose, I’ll throw in a year’s supply of afro sheen if Chill returns to the Hawks next year. Wait a minute, ok, how about 6 months worth of afro sheen. (WTF was I thinking?)

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
2:28 pm

Ken Strickland,

Woody started Marvin over Chills and clearly Chills was better, so what’s your point. Don’t argue haow terrible Woodson is, and then try to use him to make sense. Woodson would not play Boris Diaw, does that mean he could not play. I listed 20 something forwards that I would take over Marvin. That’s my opinion. I feel like we would be a better team with any of the guys listed above. I’m not talking about how old he is, what if he took 30 shots a game, what if he did not fall down so much, what if his back was not hurt…… With our team, I feel like we need a consistent scoring threat at the 3 position to take pressure off of Joe. I don’t feel like Marvin could do that, and the numbers prove it. Your stats are based on position, but Lebron, Pierce, Artest, Ariza, Odom, Butler, Iggy all play multiple positions and some might be listed as sg as opposed to sf. Those stats , that you posted prove nothing. Please help me understand how Marvin is better than Pierce, Melo, Lebron, Granger, Butler, Gay, Thorton, Jefferson, Wallace, Artest, Ariza…….

Mike

July 13th, 2009
2:28 pm

People are making too much of the blocked shots. I love that part of Josh Smith’s game, but the fact is that Marvin is a more fundamentally sound defender overall than Smith. At the very least, Marvin can guard people on the wing that Smith can’t (though Smith is better down low). Against most teams, they would be much worse off to play Smith at the 3 and ask him to guard guys like Lebron out on the wing.

I also don’t understand people who say he’s not athletic. He certainly has his flaws — e.g., he tends to disappear for long stretches — but he’s extremely athletic in transition, and most forwards in the league can’t stay in front of him when he makes his mind up to go to the rim. (The problem is that he isn’t that aggressive often enough.)

Trust me, if it weren’t for his restricted status he would have been getting a lot more attention as a free agent than people like Ariza and Villanueva.

Anakin Joe

July 13th, 2009
2:29 pm

OK, just checked some websites and my bank statement. Tell Childress that I will buy him 3 months of afro sheen and a really, really big umbrella for spring-time in Atlanta. And that’s my final offer… dammit.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
2:29 pm

MJ3,

Yeah, this was not his best year. But he was our leading score in the playoffs, I’ll take that any day.

KevinA

July 13th, 2009
2:31 pm

Rod, list the players you mentioned that are of equal age or younger. Which players with equal pay or less that you believe are better.

Lets not diminish the shooting%. He is more selective and drives more any of our guards.

Mike

July 13th, 2009
2:34 pm

The most recent list is more reasonable, Rod, but all those guys are making a LOT more than Marvin is going to make, except Ariza and Thornton, whom Marvin is clearly better than, and Artest, who’s a headcase. I don’t think anyone is saying that Marvin deserves a max contract, or even 8 figures. I’ve kind of lost sight of the debate here, but it seems to me that the question for the Hawks is whether he is a legitimate starter who deserves to be the fourth (or so) highest paid player on your team at about $8 million a year. I think the answer is clearly yes — assuming his back checks out. Like you I am very concerned about that.

MJ3

July 13th, 2009
2:38 pm

And how’d we do in the playoffs with Josh as our leading scoerer? Oh right we got our asses kicked to the curb every time.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
2:39 pm

MJ3,

“how do u justify placing battier, ariza, and outlaw”

Did you see the playoffs? All have better all around games than Marvin.

“Hell marvin’s numbers were about the same as Deng and Prince’s.”

Deng got hurt too fool. Prince is a 4 time all NBA defensive selection. Again have you ever watched the playoffs.

“I counted 6 in that list better than marv – Lebron, durant, melo, pierce, iggy, and prince. The rest are up for debate.”

Count again dummy. So Marvin is better than Granger. End of conversation with you.

dap01

July 13th, 2009
2:40 pm

Chills is/was not better than Marvin. Chills is a very good role player.

MJ3

July 13th, 2009
2:47 pm

I did watch the games fool. I saw ariza get wide open looks all day long and outlaw play like trash. But unlike u, i didn’t just watch the playoffs. i watched the hawks before marv got hurt. And i saw that marvin was a stud on D and could rack up buckets on offense when he got the ball. Same as jj did in Phenix.

And from the looks of the psots here, more people agree with me that at it’s at least up for debate how marvin would do compared if he were a more featured player on a bad team like THornton and Granger are. He sure as hell woulda been better than Ariza if he got to play with kobe and Gasol.

So since youre obviously in the minority here, u jsut gonna stop talking to everybody? Because it doesn’t look like everyone else thinks I’m a dummy.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
2:50 pm

Anakin,

You sure I can’t convince to cover his afro sheen costs for a full year? That alone might make up for the paycut he’d have to take to come back here :)

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
2:51 pm

KevinA

“Rod, list the players you mentioned that are of equal age or younger. Which players with equal pay or less that you believe are better.”

While I understand where you are going, that age stat means nothing to me. I want to win now. Not 2 years from now, 5 years or 10 years. I want to win now. I would base it more on how many years in the league.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
2:52 pm

* can’t convince you to cover.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
2:55 pm

Melvin and AJ LMFAO!!!!! I’ll let him know hehehehe!!!!

O'Brien

July 13th, 2009
2:57 pm

Rod,

I said “You could not name 15 SF that are better than Marvin, and get coaches/GMs/fans to agree with you”. Sure, you threw some names out, but a lot of them can be discredited, but its all based on your interpretation.

For example, Gerald Wallace. He is not the 4th scoring option on his team, but yet his numbers are only slightly better than Marvin.

Battier’s numbers are not even close to Marvin’s (although he does play tremendous defense).

Deng’s numbers are similar to Marvin (and Deng signed a 6 year, $71 mil deal). Iggy is a SG etc.

My point is, if you look at numbers alone, Marvin has better numbers than some of the guys on your list. And if you look at other intangibles, (scoring option, system in place, coaching, age etc.) Marvin’s value is higher than the numbers indicate.

I’m not saying we should overpay him, but based on the market, I think $7 mil annually is fair compensation for Marvin.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
3:01 pm

MJ3,

One last response to you.

“I saw ariza get wide open looks all day long and outlaw play like trash.”

I saw Ariza knock down those shots, Marvin did not. Look at Marvin’s career playoff numbers.

” And from the looks of the psots here, more people agree with me that at it’s at least up for debate how marvin would do compared if he were a more featured player on a bad team like THornton and Granger are. He sure as hell woulda been better than Ariza if he got to play with kobe and Gasol.”

Really. How can you prove that.

“So since youre obviously in the minority here, u jsut gonna stop talking to everybody? Because it doesn’t look like everyone else thinks I’m a dummy.”

So because you are in the majority that makes you right huh. The Majoriy thought Marvin was better than Chris Paul, and Derron Williams. I am black, 30 to 40 years ago the majority thought I was less than a man, were they correct?

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:03 pm

Here’s what I wrote Chills..

Message #1:

We Hawks fans are willing to up the ante…

“3 months of afro sheen and a really, really big umbrella for spring-time in Atlanta. And that’s my final offer… dammit.”Hawks Fan

Message #2:

“Tell Chills you can hook him up with one of ATL finest Hair Salon for a year so they could wash and style his Fro’…” Another Fan

Message #3:

We’re serious here. We Hawks fans are willing to go to these lenghts FOR YOU!!! What do say Chills???

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:08 pm

Ariza is going to get exposed this season now that he won’t be getting all those open looks from Kobe& co. He won’t be in Phil Jackson’s Triangle offense anymore andhe won’t hav that kind of talent around him anymore.

System/other players made him look better than he really was. His agent is an idiot.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
3:08 pm

O’brien,

We disagree. Is that so bad. Iggy can and does play the 3 also. I would take Gerald Wallace on this team all day over Marvin. Battier would knock down just as many open shots as Marvin in our offense, and would defend better, and would not defer as much. Marvin’s numbers are not better than maybe two or three guys my list last year.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:11 pm

From micah Heart’s Twitter:

“Zaza is here, wearing a suit. Bibby is not. They are both trying to convince the other to change to no avail…”

Lol!!! Bibby always dresses casual lol.

A Thinking Fan

July 13th, 2009
3:12 pm

Joe, stay out that sauce my man!

areyoufreakingkiddingme

July 13th, 2009
3:14 pm

Did Rod just bring THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT into this? So what, does that make Rod the Dr. King of the Race of People Who Don’t Like Marvin?!?!?!?

This is silly season. First RA and “Childress is UnAmerican” and now Rod thinks he’s Al Sharpton.

O'Brien

July 13th, 2009
3:17 pm

Rod,

It’s cool to disagree.

I think the Hawks are stuck with Marvin though, because who can they get to replace him? (I dont think any of the guys on your list are available/willing to sign with the Hawks).

One thing we do agree on: The Hawks should not overpay for Marvin.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
3:17 pm

Ariose,

If that doesn’t do the trick, nothing will 8)

Tyger

July 13th, 2009
3:20 pm

BIG PF will do for now…

Obviously, the Hawks need a 7′2, 300lb. goon, but its not happening now, or in the near future. Next best option is a bruising C/PF like Drew Gooden, 6′10, 250 with low post offensive and defensive skills. He won’t command a fortune or major minutes, but knows his role – enforcer, rebounder, goon w/ skills.

If we aren’t going to re-sign Flip, which is a damn shame. We need Gooden: 12ppg. 7reb. $1.5M – surely he wont work for $1.5M again, but double his salary for 3 yrs. and he fits perfectly. We need another veteran BIG, that specializes in rebounding, toughness, not highlight dunks. Team him with ZaZa and no one has a better second team of BIGs.

Currently, we are still thin in the box, w/ only Horford, ZaZa. What if, like in the playoffs, one or both is hurt? Gooden, Solo, RandMo is much better than just RandMo. Not, that I’m against RandMo either, I think he’s a steal, but Woody hasnt developed the young guys like he should so, both Solo and RandMo aren’t where they will be.

Sign Gooden, Solo and Siler and we have BIGS now and in the pipeline. Remember we’ll see Shaq, Rasheed and DHoward at least 4 times plus the playoffs.

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
3:23 pm

Anakin/Ariose/Nire

I have some left over boxes of Soul Glow from Eddie Murphy’s “Coming to America” movie to throw in the Chills care package. Just think, what he could do if some of the activator gets in his opponent eyes. How did you think Micheal Cage got all those rebounds. Soul Glow…

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:24 pm

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
3:26 pm

We shouldn’t under estimate Siler. 7ft almost 300lbs. I’m sure he would scare a few people in the layup line…

KevinA

July 13th, 2009
3:26 pm

The idea of Crawford and Bibby playing together is a scary proposition. If defense is like a toll road, the rest of the league will be given a free pass to the lane. A Flip/Chills addition to the team is a much better choice. We can trade Crawford in six weeks to get rid of that salary. With Crawford gone we could have the money to sign a Gooden type player.

With our switching defense, Chills is the perfect fit. On offense, he does not need the ball yet still averages over 10 pt’s per game. He is a league leader in FG% showing his smart shot selection.

As Josh and Al continue to expand their games we need smart unselfish wing players that take their shots in the flow of the offense. In two days we will find out what happens to Chills. Soon after Marvin/Flip. Chills/Marvin/Flip are good players who are not over paid.

Who is the only player over paid? Crawford. If my idea of the team direction does not happen. So be it. I will root for Crawford and any Hawk. I am not anti Crawford, Just pro Chills/Marvin/Flip/Gooden.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:27 pm

ROFLMAO!!!!! Mevin, I’m DEFENETLY gonna add that to the Chills’ package!!!

Nire, he’d be CRAZY to pass all this up!!

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:29 pm

I thinke We sould Sign:

Ryan Hollins, Gerald Green, and Cris Wilcox(along w/Mario and solo of course) and call it a day. If Flip came back(not likely at this point) that would be a bonus.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:31 pm

*melvin heh…

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:35 pm

From Micah’s Twitter feed:

“Mike Bibby speak like Twitter – his whole statement: “I’m glad to be back.” The man is succint, what can you say?”

Officer Dangle

July 13th, 2009
3:35 pm

Marvin Williams would definitely be a top 15 small forward in the WNBA.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:36 pm

KevinA, I say we bring EVERYONE in and WIN A TITLE!!!!

J.J.M.

July 13th, 2009
3:37 pm

lol@officer thats cold

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:39 pm

Marvin would Be a Center in the WNBA…

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:40 pm

….I’m Just sayin.

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
3:40 pm

Aroise,

I see that my Ryan Hollins train has pickup steam on the blog. Now we need to get the memo to Sund…

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:43 pm

Melvin, Yup.

…….RICK NEEDS A TWITTER!!!!! HAWKS BRASS GET ON THAT ASAP!!!!!

:-)

Keep It Real from ATL

July 13th, 2009
3:44 pm

The comparisons are great and the debate is certainly interesting. However, the question is are we comparing apples and apples? The most important point being ignored or in fact not being mentioned enough, was highlighted by Ken Strick…..Marvin is the 4th OFF option on this team. Most of the other SF’s mentioned are either the 1st or 2nd options on their respective teams.

Let me give you a breakdown of pts per minute over their careers. Interpret it how you wish:

Carmelo (FG – 46%) – .66pts/min (1st option); Battier (41%) – .30 (4th or 5th option); Durant (45%) – .62 (1st option); Gay (45%) – .49 (at least 1st or 2nd); Iggy (47%) – .41 (1st option); Lebron (47%) – .68 (no question here); Tayshaun (46%) – .38 (2nd or 3rd); Gerald Wallace (48%) – .44 (1st or 2nd); Marvin (45%) – .39 (4th option).

Read that how you wish. I can’t over-emphasize Ken Strick’s point…..Marvin is the 4th option. If you look at the list above and compare all the 4th options, where would Marvin fall?

Stats can tell you pretty much what you want them to tell you. However, I have to agree with the point being implied by Ken Strick. It is therefore reasonable to assume that if Marvin was a 1st or 2nd option then his numbers would more than likely increase. Again I am sure there are other factors that can be brought in to refute what I am saying. I guess Rod will now say Battier is a defensive stopper. I may say he has had an 8 year career therefore compare the players when Marvin has had 8 years in the league. So we could go on and on. What can I say?

One thing’s for sure, the Hawks management feel Marvin is worth resigning and so do I as do many on this blog.

Go Hawks!!!

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
3:45 pm

Ariose,

I summarized it all for Chill. He’s in the bag ;)

WEAK BLOGS, WEAK REPORTING

July 13th, 2009
3:47 pm

WHY ARE THESE BLOGS SO ANEMIC? HALF OF THIS BLOG IS FROM A PREVIOUS BLOG LAST WEEK.

THE ARTICLES POSTED HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR TEAM. SEKOU SPENDS ALL HIS TIME WRITING ABOUT WHAT FREE AGENTS HAVE GONE WHERE. WE KNOW THAT SHAQ WENT TO CLEVELAND AND IT WAS A BIG MOVE. DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO WASTE OUR TIME AND YOUR TIME REPORTING THIS IN AN ARTICLE?

FREAKING UPDATE US ON WHAT OUR PLAYERS OUR DOING? WHERE IS JOE? WHAT IS JOSH SMITH DOING TO IMPROVE HIS GAME?

REPLY TO OUR INSIGHTFUL QUESTIONS

STOP TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT.

MARK BRADLEY WRITES 3 ARTICLES A DAY (NO MATTER HOW SHORT THEY ARE).

Officer Dangle

July 13th, 2009
3:51 pm

Sekou Smith would definitely be a top-15 sports reporter on a middle-school newspaper.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
3:52 pm

Nire, oh yeah. Nice doubleteam lol!!!

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:00 pm

I you wanna know what Joe is doing then check his freaking twitter!

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:01 pm

Trainwreck

July 13th, 2009
4:04 pm

204th! get Marvin Williams signed boys!

Mitch

July 13th, 2009
4:06 pm

That’s lame ranking on Sekou. He’s the best reporter and most interactive blogger on this staff, hands down. Give the man his due props.

Mitch (MA)

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
4:12 pm

Rod,

You wanted someone to explain Marvin’s stats to you. Here you go:

Points: 07-08: 14.8 08-09: 13.9

Down a smidgen, BUT Marvin had fewer attempts per game this past year than the year before (as did Josh, if you remember Ray’s explanation of the “Bibby effect”)

Rebounds: 07-08: 5.7 08-09: 6.3

Marvin has increased his rebound avg. every year since he started.

Shooting %: 07-08: .462% 08-09: .458%

Virtually the same EXCEPT when it comes to 3 point %:

07-08 .100% 08-09: .355% A HUGE increase.

Assists per game: 07-08: 1.7 08-09: 1.3

Slight decrease at least partially due to Marvin’s increased 3 point range making him the recipient of some “bailout” passes at the end of the shot clock. Similarly, Josh’s assists were down slightly as well. If the frontcourt were to get the ball with more time on the clock, you’d see ALL of their assist numbers go up.

Steals per game: 07-08: 1.0 08-09: 0.9 Virtually the same.

Blocks per game: 07-08: 0.41 08-09: 0.64 A big increase nearly equal to an extra blocked shot every 4 games from the year before. And SOME of us saw it while it happened. ;-)

Turnovers per game: 07-08: 1.59 08-08: 1.15 Down in a category you would HOPE to be lower.

PF per game: 07-08: 2.80 08-09: 2.10 Down again. These last two are underappreciated stats. Fewer TO’s and fewer fouls mean fewer scoring opportunities for the opponents.

So, to sum it up: Down a smidge in scoring, steals and assists. Up in rebounding, blocks, 3 pt. % and a decrease in the negative stats (TO’s and PFs).

All in all, considering his ROLE as 4th option, I’d say that even on the stat sheet he’s better overall. Do NOT discount how his increased ability as a 3 point threat opened up the floor for others. Even you admitted that his defense was somewhat improved. And that’s with fouling less often.

I hope this explains why at least some people say he’s improved. I know that you disagree, but perhaps this will let you see why others might conclude he’s better.

I didn’t need the stats to know, because I watched the games. He took MUCH better angles on his drives, and finished at a much higher percentage than before. And as was posted earlier, had more “and 1’s” per game than JJ.

And yes, he fell down fewer times than before. I don’t know if his defense improved, but for sure his defensive EFFORT improved.

fudd21

July 13th, 2009
4:12 pm

Ariose, what is Joe’s twitter id or whatever you call them things.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
4:14 pm

Keep It Real from ATL,

He is our 4th option for a reason. I would not even say he is our 4th option. Last year I would put Joe, Josh, Bibby, Flip, and then Marvin, and Horford ain’t far behind. Ever wonder why he is our 4th or 5th option, but our highest draft pick. Maybe it’s because he is not as good as the other players. Ever thought about that. Hmm. You can’t continue to project what he would do with more shots, because he can’t create his own shot, has no handles, and won’t assert himself on the offensive end. He has no offensive moves, and all his shots are dependent on him getting the ball in a position to score. He is a role player. The question is, is a role player worth 7 to 8 million a year. I say no. 4 to 5 yes, 7 to 8 no. Especially one with a back problem. If the team stays constructed as is he will be the 5th or 6th option this year. I banking on Horford being a lot better this year.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:17 pm

Mike

July 13th, 2009
4:18 pm

Look, you can’t emphasize this enough in today’s game: you can’t just compare numbers, you also have to compare salaries. I agree with those who say Marvin’s numbers are down as the fourth option, but more importantly they will be getting him for much less than those other guys. Even the weakest guys on that list (except Ariza and Artest and a couple on rookie contracts) are all making 8 figures, and so are a lot of SFs not on that list. Even the weaker players like Deng (speaking of injuries) and Prince are making 8 figures. There is not a team in the NBA that would not jump at a chance to sign Marvin for a multi-year deal at aroudn $8 million a year if his back is good. Even fricking Andre Bargnani just got $10 million a year for five years.

I MUS WRITE

July 13th, 2009
4:18 pm

Heard woody on Buck and kincade saying that we are looking to bring in 2 more big men ….didnt say who tho

well atleast we know they’re looking for help

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:20 pm

Rod just got OWNED by Sautee hehehe…..

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:22 pm

Orlando Mathced the offer for Marcin Gortat!!!!

No way the Mavs don’t sign Hollins now.

Mike

July 13th, 2009
4:22 pm

But the “option” list just looks at the offensive end. Marvin is a much better defender than Flip or Bibby. Only Joe can guard wing players as well. And even Bibby can’t create his own shot as well. Marvin’s not a star, but he’s not a mere role player, either. He’s a well-rounded, solid starter, and if he stays healthy he will be for years. A solid NBA starter in his prime is worth $8 million a year, especially if he does a little of everything like Marvin does.

alex

July 13th, 2009
4:23 pm

Someone please tell me why , Chris Wilcox is still on the block ,,,,And The Hawks Haven’t Made a Move.

Mike

July 13th, 2009
4:27 pm

Also, I really just don’t see how anyone who watched the games could say that he can’t create his own shot. He’s the only one other than Joe or occasionally Flip who could drive into a crowd effectively. His handle isn’t great, but it’s okay for a 6′9″ guy, and good enough to get him to the rim. There were games (admittedly when the coaches called him out to be more aggressive) where he was all they had going on the offensive end, and I believe his injuries really hurt them in the half-court sets in the playoffs.

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
4:29 pm

Ariose,

That’s terrible news. I was hoping we could snatch Hollins for a bargain.

Clyde

July 13th, 2009
4:30 pm

Did we sign a center yet?

Hey Ray and Ken where’s the love man? Astro Joe, Doc, and drmaryb still have my back.

Don’t worry the Hawks will get it right sooner or later. Reports are they are in talks of bringing Lorenzen Wright back to Atlanta.

Mike

July 13th, 2009
4:30 pm

I’d like to see the Hawks get Wilcox, too, but maybe they’ve tried and he’s holding out for too much money so far. There will be people killing the Hawks for not bringing David Andersen over, but they did make an offer that he turned down. I was hoping they would get Brandon Bass, but I thought he got more than he was worth, or would have been worth to the Hawks, anyway. You have to get these guys to agree.

Speaking of which, can anybody believe that Andre Miller still thinks he’s going to get $10 million a year in this free agent market? Unbelievable.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
4:38 pm

Sautee,

Good explanation, but you can’t say on every stat the he was worse in that it was almost equal or it was because of …… Overall his stats are not better. That is the argument. Why, and woody took him out when he was hot, and if he took more shots….. is all irrelevant. If that’s the case, I could say that he is breaking down more this year as he gets older than any other year, but I don’t use that argument.

14.8> 13.9 PPG
1.7 > 1.3
.462% > .458
You left out Free throw percentage .822 >.806
1.0 >.09

Again I was not great in Math, but the numbers do not reflect the statement that he really improved his game this year. Regardless of what you and you blog buddies say. You saw one thing, and I saw another. So you really did not help me understand, but good effort. Why don’t you pull up his playoff stats and prove to me that he was better this year also. Oh wait, I know he was hurt. If he were healthy he would have shut Lebron down. LOL

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:38 pm

Bibby set Andre Millers Market LOL! If I was him, I’d be sending Bibby a nasty E-Mail Right about now Heh!

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
4:38 pm

Sautee,

Nice round-up. Also, when you look at pace-adjusted stats, Marvin actually improved in terms of the rate at which he scored as well. Most importantly, his FG% basically remained constant despite the fact that he took a ton more 3s – which means he scored significantly more efficiently than he did in past years (a fact that is most obvious when you look at his EFG%). That’s why he actually led the Hawks in Offensive Rating, a stat that tracks points produced per 100 possessions:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima02.html

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
4:40 pm

In any case, my view has always been that you can find stats to back up virtually any argument. Like with Bibby, it’s mainly the things that DON’T show up in the stats that make Marvin a very good player and a perfect fit for the Hawks.

The Back of KevinA's Mind

July 13th, 2009
4:40 pm

Let’s see….. Trade Crawford, trade Crawford, trade Crawford. Chills WILL come back, I KNOW he will, I KNOW he will, I KNOW he will……

Trade Crawford, trade Crawford…..errrr where was I?

Oh yeah, Chills will come back. I KNOW he will, I KNOW he will, I KNOW he will, I KNOW he will……

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
4:43 pm

Ariose,

“Rod just got OWNED by Sautee hehehe…..”

You say tomato, I say tomaato. Clean you glasses.

jase

July 13th, 2009
4:43 pm

we need to get a big man now and resign marvin williams

jase

July 13th, 2009
4:43 pm

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
4:47 pm

Nireclown,

“Nice round-up. Also, when you look at pace-adjusted stats, Marvin actually improved in terms of the rate at which he scored as well. Most importantly, his FG% basically remained constant despite the fact that he took a ton more 3s – which means he scored significantly more efficiently than he did in past years (a fact that is most obvious when you look at his EFG%).”

Spoken like a true stat man. I look at what happens when he is one on one with a guy 3 inches shorter than him. I guess its because I played and you worked the scoreboard. Oh well.

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
4:48 pm

Nire,

About the stats, I hear you. That’s why I posted about not needing them to know Marvin had improved. I watched every game I could and it was easily visible to me.

I’ll take the eye test over stats in MOST cases. And, as you have said before, basketball tends to measure the things that are easily measured, and that misses out on some of the nuanced things about any one player’s ability.

Mike

July 13th, 2009
4:51 pm

Bibby didn’t hurt Miller at all. Bibby was lucky he got as much as he got, because there was nobody out there to give him more than the mid-level except the Hawks, and maybe he wouldn’t have gotten that. It’s just a different free agent market now. Miller should have worked out an extension a year ago.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:51 pm

Rod, aww where’s your funny bone mr.Gwrumpy Guss?

I’m just sayin’,He smacked you with facts….now it’s your move.

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
4:53 pm

Rod,

“You saw one thing, and I saw another.”

Yes, and I ALSO saw most of Marvin’s 39 blocks. But somehow you missed those. All of them.

Are you sure you watched the games? How could you have missed THAT MANY BLOCKS?

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:54 pm

Mike, I agree, But no other PG onthe market is going to get more than Bibby just did. I thing Jack just agreed to 4mill a year from Toronto. 4yrs 20mill in all.

Anakin Joe

July 13th, 2009
4:55 pm

You know, when you factor in all of the hair-care products, Marvin will likely be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than Childress. Just sayin’

Sounds like Orlando plans to get every freakin’ rebound this season between Howard, Gortat and Bass. But hey, we’ve got the 6th man of the year. And Alan Henderson is ready to make that comeback now that his knees are finally healthy.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
4:59 pm

Rod, in the 08′ playoffs he blocked KG from behiend and thn lobbed to Chills for tha ‘oop. I KNOW you remember that one.

Samuel

July 13th, 2009
5:00 pm

I think Marvin improved quite a bit this year. That being said, I don’t think he is or will ever be a top 10 SF in the league. He will be a “solid” NBA player but nothing special.

I would also love to have him back this year but definately would not overpay for him. MLE and not much more. Hopefully,he has learned from the Childress situation in that nobody will be clarmoring for a slightly better than average SF who is somewhat injury prone. The ball is in our court, he(Marvin) can sign or take his chances in this uncertain economy. I believe he will sign for around 6mil.

Again, L Odom is still on the board. I would much rather have him than Marvin and a “filler”. Odom can fill multiple needs on this team. People keep saying that the Lakers are a lock but so far, it hasn’t happened.

Clyde, we’ll get our shot blocker. I predict Ratliff or Wilcox.

MAC-TOWN

July 13th, 2009
5:06 pm

Trade Joe for a TOP NOTCH Center and put Bob Rathbun at SG and we are SET!!

GO HAWKS!!!!

Stating the Obvious

July 13th, 2009
5:08 pm

When Sam/Rod has painted himself into yet another corner, he tends to call names and generally be demeaning. Childlike, I should say.

No, childish is the right word. If it weren’t amusing it would be pitiable.

A Tribe Called Quest

July 13th, 2009
5:11 pm

Can someone please explain why the Lakers are 16 mill over the cap (32 mill in luxury taxes) before resigning Lamar (if they do) and so many teams are UNDER the cap? Why are these multi-millionaire/BILLIONAIRE owners scared to go into the luxury tax? 10 or 20 mill for these guys should be chump change. You’d assume an ownership group of 19 guys (ASG) would spend major bucks to get some major FA’s here.

Someone please respond

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
5:12 pm

Samuel,

Good to know I am not crazy. I’m sure the regulars on the board will tell you that Marvin’s stats are better than Odom’s. Anyone with any knowledge of the game would take Odom over Marvin. But in the AJC Hawks blog land Marvin is this great player who if he took 25 shots a game would be the leading scorer, and FG% player in the league.

Jay

July 13th, 2009
5:13 pm

It seems that signing Marvin Williams to a 5-year deal at a cost of $7.5M-$8M per year will get done at some point during this summer. While we can agree to disagree about his importance to the team or whether he is in the top 10 (or 20 or 30) of SFs in the league, there are a couple of things that seem clear. First, he has always conducted himself as a true professional despite the criticism heaped upon him over things not under his power to control (his draft position, not being as successful as Paul or D. Williams, etc.). Second, Coach Woodson likes what Williams brings (his skill-set, intangibles and the willingness to put in the time and work necessary to improve his game) to the team.

At the end of the season, Coach Woodon stated his desire to have all of his free-agents return to the team and GM Sund is doing his best to make that happen. So, like it or not, Horford will play Center, even though some think he is undersized and would be better as a PF; Smith will play PF, even though some want him to play SF; Williams will play SF, even though there are some who think he should be traded; and Pachulia will be the back-up Center, even though some think the team needs someone who is more of a shotblocking presence in that position.

Here’s something important to keep in mind: the synergy between Al Horford, Josh Smith and Marvin Williams, as a starting frontcourt, benefits the team more than their individual talents might otherwise suggest. This team, warts and all, won 47 games last year and probably should have won 50. Their major weakness was having only an 8-man rotation, a situation that became problematic in the playoff series against Cleveland when three of those 8 players were injured.

At this point in the summer, that major weakness has yet to be addressed. So far, the only change is that two guys on the end of the bench (Law and Claxton) have been replaced by a combo guard (Jamal Crawford) and they believe Crawford represents an upgrade over Flip Murray).

The question not answered is whether Coach Woodson wants a 9-man rotation or a 10-man rotation. In either case, another big man, preferably a PF/C type, is needed (a while back, under prompting by Big Ray, I suggested that Chris Wilcox would be the man the Hawks sign to fill that role–it was good to see him get some love on subsequent blogs).

Right now, Childress is the wild-card. On one hand, a second unit of Childress, Crawford, Pachulia, Wilcox and Evans or Teague, with Solomon Jones as the 12th man, (with Randolph Morris and Mario West completing the roster) gives the Hawks a much stronger bench, as well as a better chance to advance to the Conference Championship or beyond, than last year. On the other hand, a sign-and-trade of Childress may enable the Hawks to get a back-up PF and re-sign Flip Murray to complete the 10-man rotation. I guess we’ll get a better idea about the plans to fortify the bench after Childress’ opt-out deadling passes on Wednesday night.

Until then, all we can do is hope that GM Sund has a solid plan in place for improving the bench.

Traceman

July 13th, 2009
5:13 pm

Rod,

Marvin’s ‘08-’09 numbers were better than his ‘07-’08 numbers because he was FAR more efficient. His true shooting percentage was significantly higher because he started taking (and making) 3’s, his rebound rate was significantly higher and his turnover rate was significantly lower. All that added up to Marvin having a 16.04 PER last year versus a 14.74 PER the previous year.

Last year, Marvin was #11 in PER for SFs who played 30 mpg or more (starting SFs). That put him ahead of Salmons, Artest, Jefferson, Gay, Hill, Prince, Turkoglu, Azuibuike, Deng, W. Chandler, Thornton and Battier. Ariza, Outlaw, Barnes, Finley, Posey and Ricky Davis didn’t play 30 mg or more bur Marvin’s PER was higher than their’s too. The top 10 were LeBron, Granger, Durant, Anthony, Butler, G. Wallace, Pierce, Howard, Magette and Jackson.

Marvin’s true shooting percentage was 8th among starting SFs. LeBron, Wallace, Granger, Hill, Pierce, Magette and Salmons were the only ones better. Battier, Azuibuike, Jefferson, butler, Turkoglu, Anthony and Howard rounded out the top 15.

Marvin was 4th in rebound rate for starting SFs. Only Wallace, LeBron and Carmelo rebounded at a higher rate among starters. Deng, Durant, Butler, Prince, Pierce, Chandler, Artest Azuibuike, Tukoglu, Battier and Thornton round out the top 15.

Marvin was 3rd in TO rate among starting SFs behind only Peja and Prince.

Bottom line is that you can say that Marvin’s numbers were better in ‘07-’08 but the overall stats prove otherwise. You can also make a list of SFs that are suppposedly better than Marvin but the stats say otherwise to that as well.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
5:15 pm

AJ, yeah you’re right lol!!!

We should sign James “Big Country” Verrett to be our backup PF!!!! We’d really be set then!!

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
5:15 pm

Stating the Obvious,

Look whose talking. DUMMY. How’s that. Or how about Eat a @#$%.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
5:16 pm

Odum, like Josh Smith, can’t play SF full time. They are too big. They can’t stay in fron of Quick guys like LeBron and Butler.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
5:18 pm

Rod,

Do have any idea how much you sound like a middle schooler with a combination of OCD and ADD? 98% of your posts relate to bashing one player – Marvin.
You came in here and within a day you called me a clown, called Ray gay, and basically call everyone who disagrees with you a dummy. When people point out things that you say that are objectively, verifiably false, and instead of saying “my bad,” you respond by calling other people and their opinions stupid. For awhile, you posted using two different handles and kept denying it until you got your two identities mixed up and someone pointed that out. Since then, “Sam” has mysteriously disappeared. But I digress…

The vast majority of the time, when someone disagrees with you, you respond by 1) being dismissive and condescending; or 2) flat-out insulting them. With me, you actually call me out and challenge me to play 1-on-1 with you (or challenge me to a fight, sometimes I can’t even tell).

How old are you? 13? This is a BLOG. NO ONE here played in the NBA. Most people here didn’t even play varsity ball in high school, I’d wager. I freely admit that I’d probably lose to you 1-on-1. And guess what – THAT DOESN’T MATTER. Most of the greatest coaches and GMs in NBA history were either mediocre NBA players or else never played in the league at all, and most of the Hall of Fame players who have tried their hand at coaching or GMing have failed miserably.

So let me just ask this – what are you trying to prove? If you care about our opinions, then you shouldn’t call everyone who disagrees with you “clown,” “gay,” “dummy,” or whatever. And if you don’t care about our opinions, then why the hell are you here?

Today, for the first time, I saw you say to someone “let’s agree to disagree.” That’s the usual tenor of the dialogue in Blog Z-land. I admit that I’m not without fault. Like with Clyde and Horford, I find it fun to provoke you about Marvin. I baited you into a lot of the stuff. But I’m willing to give it a rest after today. But for Christ’s sake, just man up, say “my bad” and move on. If you can’t do that, then you need to grow up.

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
5:19 pm

Traceman,

Once again, very good data.

KevinA

July 13th, 2009
5:20 pm

I for one would like to see the back court give up 6-90 of their their jump shooting options per game. If JJ/Bibby/Crawford/Flip worked on getting the ball to Josh/Al/Marvin/Chills/ZaZa we would be a more efficient offense. At minimum the back court should drive the ball more with our bigs in place for rebounds.

Does anybody have numbers on how 3 pt shots and long jumpers affect rebounding stats. Are there numbers that show fast breaks coming from jumpers compare with fast breaks coming from points in the paint. Here are some numbers I do have.

First option JJ 1420 shots
2nd Bibby 1005
4th Flip 795
9th Acie 139
total 3,359

3rd Josh 849
5th Marvin 622
6th Al 594
7th Evans 482
8th ZaZa 320
10th Solo 111
total 2978

All the players in the botttom set of numbers shoot better than the players in the top set of numbers except for Evans. He shoots like JJ does. .437 Crawford shoots at a .404 clip. Flip if we lost him was the best of the lot..447 My main man Chills shoots at a .571 clip with 537 shot attempts.

Why does the back court shoot so bad and shoot so much? Add to that we lose rebounding chances on the offense after long jump shots. Add to that we give up more fast break chances to the opponents.

Conclusion? Pass and drive the the ball. Take it to the hoop. Make the other team play defense.
Ok I’m done. lol

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
5:20 pm

Heh…if I’d slowed down and hit “refresh,” I could have just said “co-sign STO” and saved myself the trouble. But I hope you prove me wrong, Rod. I really do.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
5:20 pm

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
5:27 pm

Aroise,

Has that Eraser Head responded to you yet?

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
5:30 pm

My Goodness, Bradley and Schultz latest blogs are garbage. Bring back the Hawks Hacks (Ray/Ando that is)….

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
5:30 pm

Traceman,

Ok youre right. So I’m assumimng you would take Marvin over Artest, Jefferson, Gay, Durant, Butler, Prince, Pierce, Thornton. Ok? Hope they never make you GM.

“Bottom line is that you can say that Marvin’s numbers were better in ‘07-’08 but the overall stats prove otherwise.”

I disagree. And beleive me we could argue all day. You would never prove you point. All that typing, abd guess what, it still does not change these stats.

14.8> 13.9 PPG
1.7 > 1.3
.462% > .458
You left out Free throw percentage .822 >.806
1.0 >.09

So he is better than Pierce because he rebounds better. C’mon. Pierce is not asked to rebound. So .462 is not greater than .458. OK. Try a little harder.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
5:39 pm

Melvin, Nope not yet.

From Sekous Twitter Feed:

” don’t want to hear another word about overpaid athletes when Ryan Seacrest is getting $15 mil a year to host American Idol.”

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
5:40 pm

Lol @ Eraser Head!

O'Brien

July 13th, 2009
5:42 pm

So Orlando resigns Gortat, and adds Brandon Bass. And what has the Hawks done to strengthen their front court?

I hope Woody is right in saying the Hawks are looking to add 2 more big men. I’ll take Drew Gooden or Chris Wilcox.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
5:43 pm

Gooden and Wilcox sounds goo to me!!!

KevinA

July 13th, 2009
5:44 pm

I understand why it was important last year for the back court to take such a high volume of shots. Injuries to Marvin, Al and Josh were defiantly contributing factors. Today is a new day, Josh, Al, ZaZ and Marvin and hopefully Chills, all improved their games and efficiency. All 5 of these players have upside potential.

Will JJ in a contract year and the addition Crawford slow the organic growth of these young players? Or will the back court continue to jack up a high volume of jumpers. What will Woody do and how much influence does he really have. Can he make the changes in offense we need? If we had a different coach do you think this would happen much faster?

Pie in the Sky

July 13th, 2009
5:44 pm

Iverson can’t get more than $2M from the Heat? Oh how the mighty have fallen. Maybe some teams look at how players will mesh together instead of just looking at stats.

Pie in the Sky

July 13th, 2009
5:48 pm

Ariose – I just had that conversation with my wife 5 minutes ago!

Wabe

July 13th, 2009
5:48 pm

What is Paul Pierce now, 31?

Marvin Williams is what, 23?

Common Rod, the kid is young and as much as I’m against using this word, he has UPSIDE. I would say his ceiling is a bit higher than a guy like Pierce…

We’ve seen what Pierce can do, he’s had his time to grow, mature, and improve. You’re comparing a vet like Pierce to a kid, like literally, he’s a kid compared to Pierce.

And beyond that, do the Hawks have any chances at aquiring any of those names you mentioned, because if not, those comparisons are IRRELEVANT. Let’s be real, at this point, Marvin is the ONLY GUY the Hawks can throw out on the court at the wing as a LEGITIMATE SF/3.

I can understand if you dont like the guy, but he’s still 23…

Let me ask you this, whose shown more signs of improvement in their time in the league? Smoove or Marvin?

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
5:50 pm

Rod,

Using your logic, let’s look at LeBron’s last two seasons. Points, rebounds and steals down from 2 yrs ago.

And yet he won the MVP award. Surely, with your logic, you’d say he was a worse player.

And will you ever admit that either you purposely averted your eyes when Marvin blocked those 39 shots, OR that you really didn’t watch many games?

No one could have watched the Hawks all season and missed THAT many blocked shots.

Or maybe, just maybe, it was hyperbole. It’s ok to admit to it.

doc

July 13th, 2009
5:58 pm

doc

July 13th, 2009
6:00 pm

follow the leads to hear zaza and bibby. good stuff.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
6:12 pm

Doc, Do you know who I am?? Scroll up. LOL!!

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
6:12 pm

Nireclown,

I actually never called Ray gay. That was your alter ego Stating the Obvious posting as me. You are still in school, not me. I post my opinions, and I have the right to do that. I told you from day one, if you don’t like them then SCROLL.

” Most people here didn’t even play varsity ball in high school, I’d wager.”

“I would be willing to lay 4:1 odds that Josh will never be the leading scorer on a playoff time.” Nire

We see how correct your wagers are. I posted on this particular blog, because this topic is one I have been speaking on, and YOU on post # 1 had to mention my name like a CHILD.

I don’t care about your opinion because you have proven to me that you don’t know talent. That’s my opinion. I argue to prove a point. Is that not the basis of arguing?

I have agreed to disagree with many bloggers such as Ray, Wabe, Sautee, Ken Strickland……….

Because you have a problem with me, and think you know all things basketball, does not make you right. Just because your friends think you are smart does not make you smart.

The basis for my arguement is that Marvin is not a top 10, 15 or maybe even 20 small forward in the league, based on my knowledge of the game. I base that on playing the game at a high level compared to you, knowing what a great player looks like, having played against some great ones, and based on me watching this guy form day one as a Hawks fan. Nothing you say, or your buddies will convince me otherwise. Deal with it or start your own blog. I will promise you if you do, I would never post on it. I never insulted anyone until you and your alter-ego Stating the Obvious started with the insults. I don’t even think I insulted Sautee, and he was the first one who took a shot at me.

Once agian if it bothers you so much SCROOOOOOOOOOL.

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
6:14 pm

Rod,

about this: “So he is better than Pierce because he rebounds better. C’mon. Pierce is not asked to rebound.”

And as 4th option, Marvin’s not asked to score, even as much as Pierce is asked to rebound. But that didn’t stop you from repeatedly throwing up 14.8 > 13.9

Why is THAT stat valid but Pierce’s rebound stats are not?

You just can’t have it both ways.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
6:19 pm

Sautee,

You know what my point was, but you insist on taking things to the extreme to prove your point. I expect that from you. The point is based on his size and reach, and wingspand, he should be averaging way more blocks per year 30. See my earlier post when I compared his block numbers to other forwards. If you want me to say he actually does have some blocks in his career, OK he does. Does that make you feel better?

cp

July 13th, 2009
6:23 pm

Yea a typical day on this blog, KevinA trying to trade Crawford and Rod disssing Marvin Williams…..Traceman you cant use logic with some people on here. People keep saying how all these guys are better than Marvin but don’t seem to understand that most guys they name are either the first or second option for their team. Marvin is the fourth and sometimes fifth option. Look how efficient he was. He does not take bad shots and he does not try to do things he knows he cant. If he shot the ball as much as some guys on our team I have no doubt he could put up over 20 a game. Some guys that were listed better than Marvin are not even sf’s. Others are their teams go to guy on bad teams. Some average only about 3 points more but take way more shots than Marvin but sometimes using logic on this blog does not seem to work.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
6:24 pm

“And as 4th option, Marvin’s not asked to score, even as much as Pierce is asked to rebound. But that didn’t stop you from repeatedly throwing up 14.8 > 13.9″

He is asked to score, and he fails miserably. What could we not do in the playoffs? Why did we need Flip or Crawford? To take some of the scoring load off of JJ. So if Marvin could consistently put up 20 something points a game, do you think the team would be any better?

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
6:30 pm

“I don’t even think I insulted Sautee, and he was the first one who took a shot at me.”

No Rod, you did not insult me, but since when is questioning the veracity of a dubious comment “taking a shot”?

You said straight out that: “I don’t think I have ever seen him block a shot in 3 years.”

And I questioned whether you could actually have watched the games and NOT seen ANY of Marvin’s 39 blocks this year.

I don’t recall any shot there. I said NOTHING personal. Unless you think that you can say ANYTHING and it shouldn’t be challenged. But I really don’t think you are like that. It’s a blog, after all.

I think you simply overstated and are now being stubborn and refusing to admit it.

And to nire, yes there HAVE been times when Rod agreed to disagree with me. He just gets his back bowed up sometimes when he’s caught exaggerating.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
6:33 pm

Rod,

First, I know Ray, and would never post a childish insult aimed at him. Second, hate to break it to you – but just because someone puts up a post disagreeing with you doesn’t mean that they’re my alter ego. If that were true, then the overwhelming majority of people who posted on this blog today must be my alter egos. Let me let you in on the little secret – right now, I don’t have the time to be posting as anyone other than myself.

Hey, I tried. I said “my bad” on baiting you, but apparently you won’t say “my bad” on anything. I’ll give you one last shot to bury the hatchet and move on, but my guess is you won’t take it.

Wabe

July 13th, 2009
6:36 pm

Plain and simple, everybody’s entitled to their own opinion.

It’s become pretty damn obvious that ROD is no fan of Marvin. No need to knock on him for disliking/hating the guy…

I won’t lie, there are certain arguments Rod makes where I just can’t see where he’s coming from, but others that I may find a bit more reasonable. Regardless of what I think, he’s entitled to feel how he feels.

But, at the end of the day, the point I would stress is this: as of now – it’s either Marvin (a true SF) or you’ll be forcing one of your gaurds to be playing out of position at the 3. I don’t see the Hawks as being able to attract many bigtime FA’s, therefore many of the players that ROD is comparing Marvin to would NEVER WANT TO COME TO ATL EVEN IF THEY WERE AVAILABLE.

IMO, it’s not about who he is as a player, it’s about needs. You may not think he’s worth the big bucks based on skill – and I agree with whoever believes this (simply because of his injuries)- but his value to the Hawks is based on how much WE NEED HIM. Without Marvin, I honestly don’t see anybody outside of JJ/maybe (MAYBE) Crawford who could fill in at the SF, but I dont think even they could fill this role on a consistent basis. As I said earlier, I dont think ATL is the premier spot that FA’s are attracted to, and I don’t think Sund would dish out the money to get a premier player here when we already have a young solid core assembled.

That leads me to ask, why pass on who we have – a LEGIT SF who fills the void at the wing – who WANTS to be in ATL? I would assume that the Hawks drafted him at #2 overall because they figured he’d be a core player in the years to come…

Lets remember, this team finally had a winning season for the first time last season since WHEN? And people are already talking about championships and disassembling the core that’s been put in place…

Give the youngsters some time…

PDubATL

July 13th, 2009
6:38 pm

I know it’s just the summer league but in today’s game with just 13 minutes of PT, Siler posted 6 points, 7 boards and 3 blocks. Not too shabby…

Wabe

July 13th, 2009
6:38 pm

Todays word of the day:

P A T I E N C E

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
6:40 pm

CP,

Why is he our 4th or 5th option? So let me ask you a question, If Kevin Durant or Danny Granger or Paul Pierce or Jefferson, or Butler, or Melo, or Lebron, or Gay…….. was on our team, would they be the 4th or 5th option. Have you not heard Coach Woodson say out of his own mouth that Marvin needs to be more aggresive offensively? That is his fundamental weakness, He is not agressive, and we need an agressive player at that position. We can’t have two players Joe and Marvin who are not agressive and won’t take shots. Because when we do, guess what that leads to, Josh for three. I am sure we all agree that we don’t want that. Please tell me who was listed that does not play SF in some degree? Help me understand my illogical thinking. So you will tell me that if Marvin was the best player on a bad team, and he commanded a double team he would sore at the clip Durant scores. Once again, I agree to disagree.

Ken Strickland

July 13th, 2009
6:42 pm

ROD FROM COLLEGE PARK-Get real for a change. You are a perfect candidate for that ESPN commercial where the guy was talking out of his Azz. BBowen started ahead of MGinobli, TAriza started ahead of LOdom and Detroit wanted RStuckey to start ahead of AIverson. In each case the better player didn’t start. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY MWILLIAMS? YOU JUST CAN’T ADMIT YOU MIGHT BE WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING, BUT ESPECIALLY ABOUT MARVIN.

Most of the SF’s you rated ahead of Marvin are their teams 1st or 2nd option. I’ll bet anyone that Marvin would fair just as well, if not better, as a 1st or 2nd option on their teams than any of them would fair as the 4th option in Woody’s limited guard oriented jumpshooting OFF.

BOTTOMLINE ROD FROM COLLEGE PARK, MARVIN WILLIAMS WILL RETURN AS OUR STARTING SF, SO DEAL WITH IT. NONE OF THE PERSONAL ISSUES YOU HAVE WITH HIM WILL CHANGE A SINGLE DAMN THING.

G-Man

July 13th, 2009
6:53 pm

Man I did not realize how much Sund st-st-st-st-st-stutters. Someone needs to put a beat behind it and we would have a great rap video.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
6:57 pm

Sautee,

I was talking about the Marvin falls down 60% of the time comment that you attacked me on. Again, I admitted that he does have some blocks in an earlier post.

Wabe,

I agree. I posted earlier that I would rather Chills. That is my answer.

Nire,

“but just because someone puts up a post disagreeing with you doesn’t mean that they’re my alter ego. If that were true, then the overwhelming majority of people who posted on this blog today must be my alter egos. Let me let you in on the little secret – right now, I don’t have the time to be posting as anyone other than myself.”

I totally agree, but that did not stop you from saying Rod/Sam. I have never posted as anyone other than myself, and if you don’t beleive it find out from the Admins. Sam is another actual person who played the game at a high level who agrees with my analysis of Marvin. I accept your apology if that was what it was, and will apologize to you for whatever insulted you.

Clyde

July 13th, 2009
7:03 pm

Hey Doc I was watching that video and Sund said something that was very disturbing.

Hey said the free agents that we have signed could have gone to a championship caliber team but they chose the Hawks. Is he saying the Hawks aren’t good enough to win a championship?

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
7:09 pm

Ken Strickland,

Here we go agian with the insults. Again, what I stated was my opinion. Some agree, others don’t. I dont believe if Marvin played for Oklahoma City and Durant played for us that Durant would be our 4th option. I don’t beleive that Marvin would average 20 ppg for Oklahoma City.

“BBowen started ahead of MGinobli, TAriza started ahead of LOdom and Detroit wanted RStuckey to start ahead of AIverson. In each case the better player didn’t start. WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY MWILLIAMS?”

Where did that come from? Reading is fundamental.

“Most of the SF’s you rated ahead of Marvin are their teams 1st or 2nd option. I’ll bet anyone that Marvin would fair just as well, if not better, as a 1st or 2nd option on their teams than any of them would fair as the 4th option in Woody’s limited guard oriented jumpshooting OFF.”

I totally disagree and would be willing to take you up on that bet if it ever happens. So you beleive he would fare better than Durant, Melo, Jefferson, Turk or Granger if they switched places. And I’m talking out of my azz. No need curse.

doc

July 13th, 2009
7:10 pm

ariose, durn dude did i step on your toes man? just trying to shoulder a bit of the load myself. you guys are doing real good without me i know, so dont let me get in your way bro. mine was from hawks e-mail and it was on sund and i sent it as soon as i got it. figures you would scoop me bro though yours was bibby NOT sund. not moving in on your territory but got to keep my chops a bit to be ready when you hit the books again and take your hawks sabbatical. you and nire will be gone some day when you hit the real world and manny t, me and the rest of the gang will still have to do it all. keep it coming in the meantime.

sautee, sometimes people dont see it because they dont want to see it so from that stand point of playing blond man’s bluff the guy has got you. he will never see.

also thanks for the call, catching up for now.

Wabe

July 13th, 2009
7:34 pm

The Magic matched the Mavs offer to Gortat and will retain him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4324941

This has probably already been mentioned in here, but I just heard it and figured I’d pass it along…

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
7:38 pm

They are showing the 1988 slam dunk contest on NBATV right now. I still say Dominique was robbed.

The second track of Rod's mind

July 13th, 2009
7:39 pm

404 error: Does Not Exist

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
7:46 pm

Melvin,

Damn right he was robbed. But that was in Chicago. MJ coulda made a layup and they were gonna give him a 10.

Blast

July 13th, 2009
7:52 pm

Jay, 5:15 pm post.

Sorry dude, you tried to tell them, but no one is listening.

We can blow hot and cold on this blog and actually ‘insult’ others, what we all need to understand again is that OUR opinions don’t count for CRAP!

Whether Marvin is resigned, whether he deserves 7 mil, whether he should be traded, it doesn’t matter what ALL of us think. Nobody gives a DAMN! So throwing down 1 on 1 challenges to meet on the court, or fight in back alley is just taking things too far.

Then again, good stuff on the blog tonight. Better than a soap opera. Keeps you entertained during the long off season. He, he, he.

Sund! We need two more big men!

Bring back Flip!

Go Hawks!

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
7:55 pm

Nire,
Speaking of home town favorite. They even use the same 2 face coin out of the Dark Night movie on the coin toss for Jordan…

Big Ray

July 13th, 2009
7:55 pm

Clyde,

Uhhh…do YOU think we’re good enough to win a championship? I mean, since we don’t have a center and all…..By the way, which t-shirt promotional are you going to set up outside Phillips this year? Want me to help you get past security this time? They don’t mess with cops. Just cut me in on the deal.

If you come up with any “Ray’s gone soft” or “Fire Al Horford” shirts, I’m not helping you get past security, dammit….

Anakin Joe,

Looks that way, doesn’t it? Yeah, Orlando should own the glass. But, I didn’t see us making any moves that would get us past them anyhow. Of course, this does make it all the harder. Kinda like if we decide to play half court offense against the Cavs without running a pick and roll all game long….

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
7:59 pm

Al Copone must have those Chicago judges on his payroll….lol

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
7:59 pm

I meant Al Capone…

Jay

July 13th, 2009
8:01 pm

Rod,

“Better” is such a subjective term that it makes it hard to argue against. Does “better” mean scoring points, taking charges, getting rebounds, shooting percentage, something else or is it acombination of things?

You are cetainly entitled to take the position that Marvin Williams may not be a top 20 SF in the league just like there are some who feel that Woodson may not be a top 20 head coach in the league. We tend to draw our conclusions about who is better than whom based upon the attributes and/or style we prefer to see in a player or coach. And while statistics are supposed to provide an objective measure, and a source for comparison, they don’t always give a true measure of a players’ value nor are they adjusted to reflect the differences in offensive systems. In fact, there are some who would say that none of the Hawks are in the top 10 at their position–Joe Johnson included.

BUT, as a former player, I’m sure you know that it is about the team, not about the individual. I also know that true players prefer playing with unselfish players like Williams rather than ball hogs (like the Answer). Williams brings the ability to shoot from the mid-range to the 3-point line, the willingness to drive to the basket (I’ll admit that he is not always smooth on his forays, but he is effective as he is rarely charged with an offensive foul and comes away with points more often than not), the ability to fill a lane on the fast break and unselfishness to the team offensively. Ironically, his unselfishness may be his biggest detriments because, at times, he becomes too passive.

Moreover, he’s referred to differently than the other Hawk starters. JJ is the star–the guy brought in from Phoenix to lead the resurrection, Bibby provides stability and leadership at the team’s most important position, Horford is the banger who gives the team a strong interior even though some feel he would be better at PF and Smith is the super-athletic, mercurial talent on whom everyone is waiting to realize and fulfill his All-Star potential.

On the other hand, Williams is an under-the-radar personality who does not attract attention to himself. He doesn’t showboat or self-promote–he just plays the game. What’s worse is that he has often been called a bust because of being drafted ahead of Chris Paul and Deron Williams who, to this point in their careers, have outscored him. In fact, his style is so low-key that there have been occasions when I’ve watched the Hawks post-game show and was surprised to learn the number of points and/or rebounds attributed to Williams on the stat sheet.

Last season, all 5 Hawks starters averaged double figures in scoring–so clearly he didn’t fail miserably at scoring. Last summer, Woodson told Williams to come back to training camp with increased range on his jumper and you have to admit he did a better job of shooting from deep. This summer, let’s hope that Woodson told Williams to come back to training camp with a better handle and a greater commitment to assertiveness on the offensive end.

Will that translate in 20 pts. a game? Maybe, maybe not–but it would result in make scoring easier for everyone else if he properly combines a more assertive scoring mentality with his willingness to pass as that would lead to easier, and more wide-open, scoring opportunities for his teammates.

Here’s the key point: If the team wins because Williams does not score but does all those little things that someone on a team must do for the team to succeed, is he any less valuable to the team? And does it matter where he is ranked among the league’s SF?

Jay

July 13th, 2009
8:02 pm

Thanks Blast,

As you can see–I’m trying again.

Big Ray

July 13th, 2009
8:03 pm

Rod in College Park ,

What’s all this about you calling me gay? Why you gotta say I’m gay? Man, first Clyde saying I’m soft, now you is callin’ me gay!

Looka here, looka here, SOMEBODY is about to get 300 lbs of EL NEGRO on they asssssssss maaaaaaan!

…and NO, not in a gay way, either ya turd burglars!

Just kidding. No seriously, why you gotta call me gay?

;) :)

O'Brien

July 13th, 2009
8:04 pm

If I’m not mistaken, Drew Gooden made $1.5 mil last year. I dont see why he wouldn’t accept our bi-annual exception (about $2 mil)…lets say 2 years, $4 mil. I guess it all depends on what Chills does.

I would love to have Chills and Marvin as our 2 SFs. And then depending on the matchups (assuming Woody knew what he was doing), we would be very solid at that position. I cant wait for the 15th. But I would be surprised if Sund doesnt go back to Greece.

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
8:07 pm

How much stimulus money did Stern gave the Magic? I thought they didn’t have enough money to keep Hedo. All of a sudden, they trade for Vince, sign Bass and Gortat. Maybe Sund should ask for some bail money two…

Big Ray

July 13th, 2009
8:08 pm

Jay,

Have enjoyed reading your posts. Well thought out, well written. I always like to read a well thought out and sincere opinion, regardless of whether I agree with it or not.

On another note….

WHY’S THE RUM GONE! Oh. Cuz I drank it. Heh heh. Oops, my bad. Now where’s that other bottle…I’m not done bloggin’ yet…

Blast

July 13th, 2009
8:12 pm

What’s wrong with Allen Iverson? He’d rather retire than come off the bench? AI is not ending his career in a very good fashion. Especially when you consider the fact that he never won a ring.

Good Luck, Jay.

Big Ray

July 13th, 2009
8:13 pm

O’Brien,

How you know Sund went to Grease? I mean Greece. You know what I meant. Anyway, how you know he went there? I thought he went to DC to talk to Chills. Maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about. Now there’s a concept….

I’d love to have Drew Gooden on board. Absolutely love it. But he’d be stupid to not re-sign with the Spurs. Got a chance at a ring there, yessiree he does. Sooner than here, though I’m not knockin’ our guys. All the same, if he can get paid a bit more than last year and stay there (assumin’ they want him) then he’d be stupid to do otherwise.

But one can certainly hope, and that be what we is doin’ right? Yep.

Having Chills and Marvin as our two SFs is great, but what do you do with Mo Evans? On top of that, I think it would have us two deep at each position once we can establish who the backup power forward is going to be. It would be nice. I don’t know how Woodrow feels about all that. I think he likes eight man rotations. Could be wrong.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
8:13 pm

Big Ray

July 13th, 2009
8:15 pm

Iverson doesn’t have the answer anymore Blast . He has become bitter. He’s going to look worse than Stephon Marbury, which really is classless. I hope he doesn’t go out like this but you neeeeeever know.

Blast

July 13th, 2009
8:19 pm

Bibby said Woody is one of the best coaches he has ever played for. Did Mike mean that?

Woody said he will welcome Childress back with open arms. Oh, ain’t that sweet.

Make it happen!

Blast

July 13th, 2009
8:24 pm

I know, Ray. It would be a shame if he bombs out like that. AI was an inspiration to a lot of kids.

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
8:28 pm

Rod,

One last try.

You said this: “Again, I admitted that he does have some blocks in an earlier post.”

Congratulations on your admission. Seriously. I know it wasn’t easy.

But what I was asking is how you could have watched the Hawks over the last 3 years and NEVER have seen Marvin block a shot. That’s what you SAID, man.

So Rod, was it an exaggeration? That’s all I’ve been after in both cases. Fighting the hype.

And I do NOT remember “attacking” you over the 60% comment. We both got rather heated in the aftermath, but I do NOT remember an initial attack, but rather, once again, questioning the veracity of the comment. I’ll go back and check the archive and if I attacked you, I’ll apologize.

Anakin Joe

July 13th, 2009
8:33 pm

After reading the last 3 hours worth of posts, I was reminded of one of my favorite new blog terms… “Fact Resistant Fans”.

Traceman, you’re my new hero.

Ariose/nire, let me know when I need to start wrapping pennies for that hair care/umbrella purchase.

KevinA

July 13th, 2009
8:38 pm

Jay, If you inserted Chills name in your post instead of Marvin, would it fit? Seems so to me.

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
8:38 pm

Jay,

Well stated post. I don’t feel that we should pay 7 to 8 million dollars for a role player. That’s it. My opinion. All of the players that I listed in my opinion are better overall players than Marvin. While I do agree that a flawed system can stunt you as a player, great players can always rise above the system. To me Marvin is and will always be an average NBA player. I don’t feel average players should be rewarded with that kind of money. I would prefer that we hitch our wagon to Chills, who in my opinion is a better more versatile player.

Sautee,

I already said it was an exaggeration. Happy?

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
8:41 pm

The list was in repsonse to O’brien who told me that I could not list 10 or 15 small forwards in the league that were better than Marvin. I did. (IN MY OPINION).

Nookah

July 13th, 2009
8:44 pm

If I am Woody and I just got the news that Orlando matched the offer for Gortat along with the fact that they signed Bass before, I am in Rick Sund’s office pleading to get the best big man available. If not then Orlando just increased the gap between us. Sad but true.

Someone said earlier that Woody said we were looking for 2 more big men? I hope it’s 2 productive bigs rather than pine warmers. I think Wilcox just became more valuable to the Hawks.

Go Hawks!!!

Nookah

July 13th, 2009
8:45 pm

Childress on 690 the zone.

Go Hawks!!!!

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
8:50 pm

Nookah,
Do 690 the zone have a link… If not, I want a full report….lol

Aroise,
Where ya at when I need ya…. Get me that link, buddy….

Nookah

July 13th, 2009
8:52 pm

Childress says he enjoyed his time in Greece and it was a good life experience for him. He watched the Hawks on-line sometimes but because of the time difference he was unable to follow too closely.

3D asked him if he was bitter but he said he was happy with his move and enjoyed the experience. Money was not the major factor.

3D – Will I get a chance to say Afro Power to the basket again?

Childress: Yu might. I have until the 15th and I can’t really say right now but you might!!

The tone sounds like he left us with a lot of wiggle room. Sounds like there is a possibility he will be back!!!!

Go Hawks!!!

Anakin Joe

July 13th, 2009
8:54 pm

Samuel, did you call Wilcox a shot blocker earlier?

Nookah

July 13th, 2009
8:55 pm

I just picked it up on the internet. I’m way up North, Canada. Oh by the way my bad….790 the Zone not 690!!!! Sorry about that!!!

Go online and go on 790thezone.com

I tried to give you as much as I could. Not a long discussion. Chills was in Cali.

Go Hawks

Jay

July 13th, 2009
8:56 pm

Big Ray,

thanks–even if you disagree. And it is a shame to see what the Answer is becoming–the epitome of selfishness.

KevinA,

If it was Chills, I would have added crashing the offensive boards and his versatility–able to play the 1, 2 and 3–as part of his offensive repertoire. Personally, I’d rather see Chills as the starting forward with Marvin coming of the bench.
Rod,

I can understand your reasoning about paying a large dollar amount to role players and I don’t mean any harm but the Hawks are going to pay $9 million to Jamal Crawford to be a role player, the Pistons just gave $10 million to Ben Gordon to be a role player and Lamar Odom wants $10 million to be a role player for the Lakers. I know 6th men are often considered quasi-starters but they are still role players. At least Williams is a starter.

Samuel

July 13th, 2009
9:00 pm

Samuel

July 13th, 2009
9:01 pm

Are we seriously comparing Marvin to Paul Pierce?

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
9:02 pm

Thanks Nookah…. I hope the Fro comes back.

Anakin, you need to start wrapping those pennies (at least for good luck).

Nire/Ariose,
Who’s address do I need to send the box(es) of Soul Glow to?

Melvin

July 13th, 2009
9:04 pm

Nookah,

No wonder I couldn’t find it. I was looking for 690. LOL…

Sautee

July 13th, 2009
9:06 pm

Rod,

Thanks. And I must have missed your saying it was an exaggeration when you said it before. I thought it was merely an admission of “yes, he had blocks”.

Sorry about that.

And I looked at the archive. Our initial set-to was in February on the Hacks blog, and I did NOT attack you with my initial post, but I DID question the veracity of some statements you made (Al Thornton as a second rounder, Marvin as 6′11″, and “falls every time he goes to the hole” – later amended to 60% of the time he drives).

So your memory was faulty about my initial post to you. If you care to fact check it’s in the February archive for the Hacks entitled A Few Trade Thoughts”. Your post was at 11:38 on 2/9 and mine was at 2:27 the same day. I freely admit that we both got out of bounds after that. But we’ve since made peace, and I hope this does so again.

So thanks again for admitting the hyperbole.

I’ll say once again that you and I have PLENTY of common ground about our Hawks.

Anakin Joe

July 13th, 2009
9:09 pm

Samuel, I would welcome Wilcox but I’m not sure that he is a “shot-blocker”.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=1731

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
9:20 pm

Jay,

“I can understand your reasoning about paying a large dollar amount to role players and I don’t mean any harm but the Hawks are going to pay $9 million to Jamal Crawford to be a role player, the Pistons just gave $10 million to Ben Gordon to be a role player and Lamar Odom wants $10 million to be a role player for the Lakers. I know 6th men are often considered quasi-starters but they are still role players. At least Williams is a starter.”

In my opionion, all three are much better players than Marvin. For those that have doubts, I think Jamal will prove himself to you this year. Gordon and Odom are not in the same league with Marvin.

Blog Z Historian

July 13th, 2009
9:30 pm

Satuee forgot that 3 weeks later Rod showed up again swearing on the Good Book that 60% was accurate:
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/hawks/entries/2009/03/02/better_late_tha.html

“Doc, I stand by my 60% statement. The guy can’t stay on his feet. Again, I was roasted on the other board about stating facts.”

Well, I guess better 5 months late than never!!!!!!!!!!

KevinA

July 13th, 2009
9:35 pm

Nookah, What did Chills have to say.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:36 pm

Doc, LOL, you know I was jus messin’ with ya ;-) The more links the better! that’s my motto lol….and don’t go getting all mushy on me lol :-) . I still manage to drop by when school’s in….occasionally hehehe…

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:37 pm

Melvin, hold yer horses. Chills is on Twitter but he hasn’t responded to me or nire, don’t know what he’s thinking, but we’ll know in about 30-48 hours.

darrell starks

July 13th, 2009
9:39 pm

Wow some one call me and said that chill would luv to comeback if this is true the hawks would be on the right path.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
9:43 pm

Ha….Ariose, much as I wish it were true, I don’t we’d be the first people Chill would tell if he were coming back :)

That being said, I hope he either 1) comes back, or 2) is S&Ted. Because lord knows we can’t have his cap hold on our books next summer too…

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:44 pm

Melvin, not sure how to get that link. Usually doc or AJ links the radio stuff. I forgot where to go heh.

darrell starks

July 13th, 2009
9:44 pm

If rick sund sign wilcox and chill he becomes gm of the year with all of the work he had to deal with this summer.
GO HAWKS!!!!!

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:46 pm

nie, amen to that. But he probably will be S&Ted. The maker will be so bad next summer. I’m sure his agents know this.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:47 pm

Mike V

July 13th, 2009
9:49 pm

Orlando matches the Mavs offer for Gortat. That’s a LOT of bigs down there in Orlando. They’re getting scary. I kinda like the idea of them locking up $7 mil a year for Gortat though while we’re getting Zaza for under $5 mil.

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
9:52 pm

Well, you know Gortat will be none too pleased about that…

Samuel

July 13th, 2009
9:52 pm

OK Joe,

Maybe he jumps so high that people are afraid to shoot over him. Anyways, he’s a good player and he should be rested since they basically wasted him last year in OKC and NY.

Speaking of NYC. I see my boy EC has slimmed down to around 320.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:52 pm

darrell starks

July 13th, 2009
9:53 pm

JUST WHAT IF !!!!!!!!!!
2009 ATLANTA HAWKS
STARTER BIBBY, JOE, MARVIN, JOSH, HORFORD,
BENCH FLIP, JAMAL, CHILL, WILCOX, ZAZA,
RESERVE TEAGUE, SOLO
AND PUT MOE IN SWEAT SUIT
DEEPEST TEAM IN THE NBA.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:55 pm

Melvin, usually Doc or AJ links the radio stuff. I’ve forgotten hot ot get to the site lol!

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
9:55 pm

Alright, this is hysterical:
http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sport24.gr%2Fhtml%2Fent%2F790%2Fent.303790.asp&sl=el&tl=en&history_state0=

That’s the Google translation page of the Greek media report saying Childress is staying in Greece. Apparently, it translated “Childress” as “Tsilntres.”

I like that better. I think I’ll call him Josh Tsilntres from now on.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:58 pm

DS, you’ve STILL got yoom on your list to add Gerald Green.

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
9:58 pm

darrell starks

July 13th, 2009
10:01 pm

ARIOSE i like gerald green to.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
10:02 pm

Ariose,

Don’t you mean Gerald Green (800k!!!)?

Jay

July 13th, 2009
10:02 pm

Rod,

you wrote:

“In my opionion, all three are much better players than Marvin. For those that have doubts, I think Jamal will prove himself to you this year. Gordon and Odom are not in the same league with Marvin.”

You cannot be serious. Crawford will certainly fill the scoring role vacated by Murray’s free agency and can be an excellent passer. But he’s exactly known for his defense, rebounding or leadership.

Gordon is a one-trick pony; he shoots–whether he’s on fire or ice cold. He can shoot you into a game or shoot you out of a game. Granted he can be an effective scorer but he’s not an efficient scorer. He doesn’t rebound, assist, play defense or do the little things and has never shown an inclination to do anything but shoot.

Odom is one of the most skilled players in the league–his excellent ballhandling skills separate him from almost all frontcourt players, including Williams–however, the truth is that he doesn’t “bring it” every night. Whether it is a lack of intensity or too much of a willingness to defer to the best player on his team, there are too many occasions on which he disappears, much like Williams.

With that said, if Crawford is worth $9M, Odom wants $10M and Gordon is getting more than $10M, how can you justify not paying between $7.5M and $8M for Williams?

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
10:04 pm

hahahaha Nire, yup!!!

Ariose

July 13th, 2009
10:10 pm

Did you know there is only ONE clip of Jamal Crawford Dunking on youtube??

….I WANT FLIP!!! Crawford will not take it to the tin like Flip. BRING BACK FLIP…..AND GERALD GREEN(800K!!!!)

niremetal

July 13th, 2009
10:15 pm

Now THAT’S what I’m talking about, Ariose!

Rod from College Park

July 13th, 2009
10:50 pm

Jay,

Once again in my opinion he is not that caliber player.

“You cannot be serious. Crawford will certainly fill the scoring role vacated by Murray’s free agency and can be an excellent passer. But he’s exactly known for his defense, rebounding or leadership.”

Neither is Marvin.

“Gordon is a one-trick pony; he shoots–whether he’s on fire or ice cold. He can shoot you into a game or shoot you out of a game. Granted he can be an effective scorer but he’s not an efficient scorer. He doesn’t rebound, assist, play defense or do the little things and has never shown an inclination to do anything but shoot.”

The guy almost beat the Celtics by himself. He an unstoppable offensive player, Marvin is not.

“Odom is one of the most skilled players in the league–his excellent ballhandling skills separate him from almost all frontcourt players, including Williams–however, the truth is that he doesn’t “bring it” every night. Whether it is a lack of intensity or too much of a willingness to defer to the best player on his team, there are too many occasions on which he disappears, much like Williams.”

Do we really have to argue this one?

MannyT

July 13th, 2009
10:57 pm

TIME IS MONEY!

Imagine if the agent for mos tof these big men had been able to delay negotiations for an extra day or two. Dalls has a MLE slot buring a hole in the Cubillionaire’s wallet. I could see them tossing much of that at another big, like Zaza.

So the 2nd wave of big men will have a chance at a better pay day as the Magic realize that Gortat will make less than Battie next season.

Just a note, some of the better teams are paying above MLE money for guys on their bench. For all the Marvin argument, it’s like I mentioned the other day, compensation and contribution are separate issues.

The richest 2 people in the world are at Microsoft & Berkshire Hathaway. Notice how often those company names show up on the top compensation list for 2008…
http://projects.nytimes.com/executive_compensation

All that to say, Marvin will get paid. It might not be top dollar, but it will be a decent, above MLE, multi year contract. Paraphrasing Billy Jack–he’s gonna put his right wallet pocket against the RFA side of the Hawks bank account, and there isn’t a thing you can do about it.

BWAF

Sekou Smith

July 13th, 2009
10:59 pm

New blog is up.

doc

July 13th, 2009
11:01 pm

Gutz

July 13th, 2009
11:10 pm

Where Sekou? I don’t see it

Deep

July 14th, 2009
12:01 am

Damn come on Hawks make it worth it to Chills!!!!!!!!!!

Jay

July 14th, 2009
12:09 am

Rod,

No, we don’t need to argue. You’ve made your feelings about Williams crystal clear in a previous posting and nothing’s going to change that. So be it.

But consider this: as Chicago’s leading scorer, Gordon averaged 20.7 ppg; only 7 ppg more than Williams’ 13.9 ppg. As NY & GS’s 2nd leading scorer, Crawford averaged 19.7 ppg; 6 more than Williams. And as the Lakers’ 4th leading scorer, Odom averaged 11.3 ppg–2 ppg less than Williams.

So as you can see, there’s no need to argue that Williams, while he may not be great (yet), is far from being as bad as you would purport.

Bottom line–he’ll be with the Hawks next year, either on a Qualifying Offer or a new long-term contract, and there’s no need to argue about that either.

jhan

July 14th, 2009
12:10 am

Billy Jack – I applaud you Manny T!!

Deep

July 14th, 2009
12:46 am

All reports and Josh’s friends on twitter coming out saying Chills to stay in Greece……DAMN

Joe's place Joe speaking

July 14th, 2009
1:09 am

sekousmith01 Josh Childress IS going back to Greece this season. He is not opting out of his deal with Olympiakos. 24 minutes ago

JC

July 14th, 2009
1:41 am

Is there any way we can do a sign and trade with Marvin and trade him for Caron Butler. We could sign Marvin for less and to a long term deal, both of which would intrigue the Wizards. Caron would make 10 for the next couple of years but give us more flexibility at the 3. We could also backload the contract if that would help get Marvin sign quicker and steer him away from that 1 year deal.

Sam from the Swats

July 14th, 2009
11:49 am

JC, now that’s what I’m saying. The problem that people don’t realize is no one wants Marvin. That’s the reason we can’t make a deal and why he isn’t signed yet.

Sam from the Swats

July 14th, 2009
12:04 pm

Jay, do you know how much more you have to score more than somebody in an 82 game season to average 5 or more points? Look at overall points scored.

[...] Sekou Smith, a writer at Hawks Blog, finds the title of HoopsWorld article to be a bit of a misnomer and cites some evidence that the projected offer/deal was simply not true. Smith goes on to provide his take on several different scenarios for the former UNC standout. [...]

Russia

March 30th, 2010
1:28 pm

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