Still a work in progress
Marvin Williams doesn't have a new deal yet, but it should be a slam dunk with both sides clear on what it's going to take to get it done.
HAWKSVILLE - The word spreading around the NBA summer league in Las Vegas is that Marvin Williams and the Hawks have agreed to terms on a new deal (so say our friends at hoopsworld.com).
That would be news to Williams.
“Somebody is lying to them,” Williams said via text message Sunday afternoon. “That’s not true.”
As reported here last week, the Hawks are working hard to get something done.
But it’s not done.
Not yet.
In defense of the folks at HOOPSWORLD, their headline (”Marvin Williams gets his deal”) reads much stronger than the actual text of their item, which clearly states that “sources” told them that the sides are “close” to a new deal.
It makes sense that they heard that. Everybody in this business has sources.
Still, when asked Sunday afternoon if the sides had a deal in place, Jim Tanner, who represents not only Williams but also Zaza Pachulia and Josh Childress, responded via text, “NO.”
On the bright side, Williams did say that the injuries (back and wrist) that soured the end of his fourth season are healing fine and that he is lifting and doing court work these days in anticipation of another strong season.
And as I wrote in an entry last week, the situation for Williams looks like this: “Using Charlie Villanueva’s deal in Detroit (5 years, $40 million-range) as your guide, things should get much easier to decipher in the curious case of Marvin Williams. With a qualifying offer of $7.5 million, we’re not talking about anything out of the ordinary her for a guy that’s proved to be a valuable starter the past three years. Finding another 6-9 starting small forward that fits the way he does on this team will not be easy, despite all of the suggestions around here to the contrary. Respected and prolific colleague Mark Bradley has suggested many times that if any of the Hawks’ remaining building blocks was expendable it was Marvin. But as I look across the free agent landscape, I cannot co-sign that theory. Not with the free agent moves/trades that have gone on in the Eastern Conference since draft night. Not with Hedo Turkoglu in Toronto now and Vince Carter in his old spot in Orlando. And not with Villanueva in Detroit and the addition of Rasheed Wallace in Boston. The length the Hawks used to their advantage across the frontline with Williams, Josh Smith and Al Horford is more critical than ever. Even in one of the many proposed sign-and-trade deals offered up around these parts, I don’t see the Hawks adding the piece that could take Marvin’s place on this roster (in fit, size and temperament … three crucial factors that Marvin brings that go largely unnoticed by the public). The Hawks have made clear their preference for Marvin to remain a part of the core of this team and I see no reason why that shouldn’t happen. I can’t see any scenario where he is not a part of this team in the future.”
This isn’t high-level economics we’re talking about here people. It’s simply the art of negotiating. The team comes low, the representative for the player comes high and ultimately the sides make nice, after a whole lot of haggling over details, and decide to meet in the middle somewhere.
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362 comments Add your comment
Melvin
July 13th, 2009
2:17 pm
Nire/Aroise,
Tell Chills you can hook him up with one of ATL finest Hair Salon for a year so they could wash and style his Fro’…
Rod,
Thats an impressive list but I wouldn’t take Ariza, Outlaw or Prince over Marvin…
MJ3
July 13th, 2009
2:18 pm
Rod, get real fool. He said marvin got better every year, not that his numbers are better. Anyone who actually watched the hawks before marvin got hurt knows that. The numbers don’t tell half the story in basketball. And if they do, answer my question – how do u justify placing battier, ariza, and outlaw ahead of marvin. Hell marvin’s numbers were about the same as Deng and Prince’s.
Marv came back this year with a smooth trey and great defense. oh wait u probably think that defense is just blocks and steals rihgt?
Mike
July 13th, 2009
2:19 pm
Does anybody understand the rules about Base Year Compensation Players? I keep hearing that’s what makes it harder to trade Childress. I think he will likely accept their one-year qualifying offer, which if they re-sign Marvin would put them in a bit of a bind. There wouldn’t be enough minutes at the 3 for Marvin, Mo, and Chills, especially since JJ will likely play there some with Crawford and Bibby. And they would still need more depth up front. I don’t think he wants to go back to Greece; by all accounts his game did not translate well there, plus there was the violence and such at the end of the year. His best option may be to call their bluff with the qualifying offer; if they don’t trade him he just plays out the year and is unrestricted next year. That’s not an insubstantial threat, since as a #6 pick he would make a good salary. I personally would like to see him back, so maybe it works out that way.
MJ3
July 13th, 2009
2:20 pm
And hey Rod your boy Josh’s numbers went down this yaer. I guess that means he was a worse player too huh?
Najeh Davenpoop
July 13th, 2009
2:24 pm
I can’t say I entirely disagree with Rod’s assessment of Marvin compared to other SFs in the league. I wouldn’t say he’s worse than Ariza, Outlaw, or Thornton, and I’m not sure that Prince isn’t a product of the system in Detroit, but all the other SFs Rod mentioned are better at this point. SF is a pretty deep position in the NBA, and Marvin is more or less average compared to other starting SFs in the league.
But Marvin has two things going for him right now — he does provide the Hawks with certain qualities (most importantly length and defensive versatility) that they cannot replace with anyone in the current free agent pool, and unlike most of the players Rod mentioned, he is still pretty young and has significant upside. I can justify paying him $8 million per year based on that. Put it this way — I’d definitely take him over Charlie V, who gets paid $8 million a year now.
And in fairness to Marvin, injuries have slowed his development every time he looks like he’s about to turn the corner, so maybe if he can stay healthy for a full season we can see him realize some of his potential.
Anakin Joe
July 13th, 2009
2:24 pm
nire & Ariose, I’ll throw in a year’s supply of afro sheen if Chill returns to the Hawks next year. Wait a minute, ok, how about 6 months worth of afro sheen. (WTF was I thinking?)
Rod from College Park
July 13th, 2009
2:28 pm
Ken Strickland,
Woody started Marvin over Chills and clearly Chills was better, so what’s your point. Don’t argue haow terrible Woodson is, and then try to use him to make sense. Woodson would not play Boris Diaw, does that mean he could not play. I listed 20 something forwards that I would take over Marvin. That’s my opinion. I feel like we would be a better team with any of the guys listed above. I’m not talking about how old he is, what if he took 30 shots a game, what if he did not fall down so much, what if his back was not hurt…… With our team, I feel like we need a consistent scoring threat at the 3 position to take pressure off of Joe. I don’t feel like Marvin could do that, and the numbers prove it. Your stats are based on position, but Lebron, Pierce, Artest, Ariza, Odom, Butler, Iggy all play multiple positions and some might be listed as sg as opposed to sf. Those stats , that you posted prove nothing. Please help me understand how Marvin is better than Pierce, Melo, Lebron, Granger, Butler, Gay, Thorton, Jefferson, Wallace, Artest, Ariza…….
Mike
July 13th, 2009
2:28 pm
People are making too much of the blocked shots. I love that part of Josh Smith’s game, but the fact is that Marvin is a more fundamentally sound defender overall than Smith. At the very least, Marvin can guard people on the wing that Smith can’t (though Smith is better down low). Against most teams, they would be much worse off to play Smith at the 3 and ask him to guard guys like Lebron out on the wing.
I also don’t understand people who say he’s not athletic. He certainly has his flaws — e.g., he tends to disappear for long stretches — but he’s extremely athletic in transition, and most forwards in the league can’t stay in front of him when he makes his mind up to go to the rim. (The problem is that he isn’t that aggressive often enough.)
Trust me, if it weren’t for his restricted status he would have been getting a lot more attention as a free agent than people like Ariza and Villanueva.
Anakin Joe
July 13th, 2009
2:29 pm
OK, just checked some websites and my bank statement. Tell Childress that I will buy him 3 months of afro sheen and a really, really big umbrella for spring-time in Atlanta. And that’s my final offer… dammit.
Rod from College Park
July 13th, 2009
2:29 pm
MJ3,
Yeah, this was not his best year. But he was our leading score in the playoffs, I’ll take that any day.
KevinA
July 13th, 2009
2:31 pm
Rod, list the players you mentioned that are of equal age or younger. Which players with equal pay or less that you believe are better.
Lets not diminish the shooting%. He is more selective and drives more any of our guards.
Mike
July 13th, 2009
2:34 pm
The most recent list is more reasonable, Rod, but all those guys are making a LOT more than Marvin is going to make, except Ariza and Thornton, whom Marvin is clearly better than, and Artest, who’s a headcase. I don’t think anyone is saying that Marvin deserves a max contract, or even 8 figures. I’ve kind of lost sight of the debate here, but it seems to me that the question for the Hawks is whether he is a legitimate starter who deserves to be the fourth (or so) highest paid player on your team at about $8 million a year. I think the answer is clearly yes — assuming his back checks out. Like you I am very concerned about that.
MJ3
July 13th, 2009
2:38 pm
And how’d we do in the playoffs with Josh as our leading scoerer? Oh right we got our asses kicked to the curb every time.
Rod from College Park
July 13th, 2009
2:39 pm
MJ3,
“how do u justify placing battier, ariza, and outlaw”
Did you see the playoffs? All have better all around games than Marvin.
“Hell marvin’s numbers were about the same as Deng and Prince’s.”
Deng got hurt too fool. Prince is a 4 time all NBA defensive selection. Again have you ever watched the playoffs.
“I counted 6 in that list better than marv – Lebron, durant, melo, pierce, iggy, and prince. The rest are up for debate.”
Count again dummy. So Marvin is better than Granger. End of conversation with you.
dap01
July 13th, 2009
2:40 pm
Chills is/was not better than Marvin. Chills is a very good role player.
MJ3
July 13th, 2009
2:47 pm
I did watch the games fool. I saw ariza get wide open looks all day long and outlaw play like trash. But unlike u, i didn’t just watch the playoffs. i watched the hawks before marv got hurt. And i saw that marvin was a stud on D and could rack up buckets on offense when he got the ball. Same as jj did in Phenix.
And from the looks of the psots here, more people agree with me that at it’s at least up for debate how marvin would do compared if he were a more featured player on a bad team like THornton and Granger are. He sure as hell woulda been better than Ariza if he got to play with kobe and Gasol.
So since youre obviously in the minority here, u jsut gonna stop talking to everybody? Because it doesn’t look like everyone else thinks I’m a dummy.
niremetal
July 13th, 2009
2:50 pm
Anakin,
You sure I can’t convince to cover his afro sheen costs for a full year? That alone might make up for the paycut he’d have to take to come back here
Rod from College Park
July 13th, 2009
2:51 pm
KevinA
“Rod, list the players you mentioned that are of equal age or younger. Which players with equal pay or less that you believe are better.”
While I understand where you are going, that age stat means nothing to me. I want to win now. Not 2 years from now, 5 years or 10 years. I want to win now. I would base it more on how many years in the league.
niremetal
July 13th, 2009
2:52 pm
* can’t convince you to cover.
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
2:55 pm
Melvin and AJ LMFAO!!!!! I’ll let him know hehehehe!!!!
O'Brien
July 13th, 2009
2:57 pm
Rod,
I said “You could not name 15 SF that are better than Marvin, and get coaches/GMs/fans to agree with you”. Sure, you threw some names out, but a lot of them can be discredited, but its all based on your interpretation.
For example, Gerald Wallace. He is not the 4th scoring option on his team, but yet his numbers are only slightly better than Marvin.
Battier’s numbers are not even close to Marvin’s (although he does play tremendous defense).
Deng’s numbers are similar to Marvin (and Deng signed a 6 year, $71 mil deal). Iggy is a SG etc.
My point is, if you look at numbers alone, Marvin has better numbers than some of the guys on your list. And if you look at other intangibles, (scoring option, system in place, coaching, age etc.) Marvin’s value is higher than the numbers indicate.
I’m not saying we should overpay him, but based on the market, I think $7 mil annually is fair compensation for Marvin.
Rod from College Park
July 13th, 2009
3:01 pm
MJ3,
One last response to you.
“I saw ariza get wide open looks all day long and outlaw play like trash.”
I saw Ariza knock down those shots, Marvin did not. Look at Marvin’s career playoff numbers.
” And from the looks of the psots here, more people agree with me that at it’s at least up for debate how marvin would do compared if he were a more featured player on a bad team like THornton and Granger are. He sure as hell woulda been better than Ariza if he got to play with kobe and Gasol.”
Really. How can you prove that.
“So since youre obviously in the minority here, u jsut gonna stop talking to everybody? Because it doesn’t look like everyone else thinks I’m a dummy.”
So because you are in the majority that makes you right huh. The Majoriy thought Marvin was better than Chris Paul, and Derron Williams. I am black, 30 to 40 years ago the majority thought I was less than a man, were they correct?
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:03 pm
Here’s what I wrote Chills..
Message #1:
We Hawks fans are willing to up the ante…
“3 months of afro sheen and a really, really big umbrella for spring-time in Atlanta. And that’s my final offer… dammit.”Hawks Fan
Message #2:
“Tell Chills you can hook him up with one of ATL finest Hair Salon for a year so they could wash and style his Fro’…” Another Fan
Message #3:
We’re serious here. We Hawks fans are willing to go to these lenghts FOR YOU!!! What do say Chills???
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:08 pm
Ariza is going to get exposed this season now that he won’t be getting all those open looks from Kobe& co. He won’t be in Phil Jackson’s Triangle offense anymore andhe won’t hav that kind of talent around him anymore.
System/other players made him look better than he really was. His agent is an idiot.
Rod from College Park
July 13th, 2009
3:08 pm
O’brien,
We disagree. Is that so bad. Iggy can and does play the 3 also. I would take Gerald Wallace on this team all day over Marvin. Battier would knock down just as many open shots as Marvin in our offense, and would defend better, and would not defer as much. Marvin’s numbers are not better than maybe two or three guys my list last year.
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:11 pm
From micah Heart’s Twitter:
“Zaza is here, wearing a suit. Bibby is not. They are both trying to convince the other to change to no avail…”
Lol!!! Bibby always dresses casual lol.
A Thinking Fan
July 13th, 2009
3:12 pm
Joe, stay out that sauce my man!
areyoufreakingkiddingme
July 13th, 2009
3:14 pm
Did Rod just bring THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT into this? So what, does that make Rod the Dr. King of the Race of People Who Don’t Like Marvin?!?!?!?
This is silly season. First RA and “Childress is UnAmerican” and now Rod thinks he’s Al Sharpton.
O'Brien
July 13th, 2009
3:17 pm
Rod,
It’s cool to disagree.
I think the Hawks are stuck with Marvin though, because who can they get to replace him? (I dont think any of the guys on your list are available/willing to sign with the Hawks).
One thing we do agree on: The Hawks should not overpay for Marvin.
niremetal
July 13th, 2009
3:17 pm
Ariose,
If that doesn’t do the trick, nothing will
Tyger
July 13th, 2009
3:20 pm
BIG PF will do for now…
Obviously, the Hawks need a 7′2, 300lb. goon, but its not happening now, or in the near future. Next best option is a bruising C/PF like Drew Gooden, 6′10, 250 with low post offensive and defensive skills. He won’t command a fortune or major minutes, but knows his role – enforcer, rebounder, goon w/ skills.
If we aren’t going to re-sign Flip, which is a damn shame. We need Gooden: 12ppg. 7reb. $1.5M – surely he wont work for $1.5M again, but double his salary for 3 yrs. and he fits perfectly. We need another veteran BIG, that specializes in rebounding, toughness, not highlight dunks. Team him with ZaZa and no one has a better second team of BIGs.
Currently, we are still thin in the box, w/ only Horford, ZaZa. What if, like in the playoffs, one or both is hurt? Gooden, Solo, RandMo is much better than just RandMo. Not, that I’m against RandMo either, I think he’s a steal, but Woody hasnt developed the young guys like he should so, both Solo and RandMo aren’t where they will be.
Sign Gooden, Solo and Siler and we have BIGS now and in the pipeline. Remember we’ll see Shaq, Rasheed and DHoward at least 4 times plus the playoffs.
Melvin
July 13th, 2009
3:23 pm
Anakin/Ariose/Nire
I have some left over boxes of Soul Glow from Eddie Murphy’s “Coming to America” movie to throw in the Chills care package. Just think, what he could do if some of the activator gets in his opponent eyes. How did you think Micheal Cage got all those rebounds. Soul Glow…
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:24 pm
http://hawks.portspaces.com/post/hawksbasketblog/hawks_retain_continuity_keep_bibby_and_pachulia.html
Melvin
July 13th, 2009
3:26 pm
We shouldn’t under estimate Siler. 7ft almost 300lbs. I’m sure he would scare a few people in the layup line…
KevinA
July 13th, 2009
3:26 pm
The idea of Crawford and Bibby playing together is a scary proposition. If defense is like a toll road, the rest of the league will be given a free pass to the lane. A Flip/Chills addition to the team is a much better choice. We can trade Crawford in six weeks to get rid of that salary. With Crawford gone we could have the money to sign a Gooden type player.
With our switching defense, Chills is the perfect fit. On offense, he does not need the ball yet still averages over 10 pt’s per game. He is a league leader in FG% showing his smart shot selection.
As Josh and Al continue to expand their games we need smart unselfish wing players that take their shots in the flow of the offense. In two days we will find out what happens to Chills. Soon after Marvin/Flip. Chills/Marvin/Flip are good players who are not over paid.
Who is the only player over paid? Crawford. If my idea of the team direction does not happen. So be it. I will root for Crawford and any Hawk. I am not anti Crawford, Just pro Chills/Marvin/Flip/Gooden.
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:27 pm
ROFLMAO!!!!! Mevin, I’m DEFENETLY gonna add that to the Chills’ package!!!
Nire, he’d be CRAZY to pass all this up!!
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:29 pm
I thinke We sould Sign:
Ryan Hollins, Gerald Green, and Cris Wilcox(along w/Mario and solo of course) and call it a day. If Flip came back(not likely at this point) that would be a bonus.
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:31 pm
*melvin heh…
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:35 pm
From Micah’s Twitter feed:
“Mike Bibby speak like Twitter – his whole statement: “I’m glad to be back.” The man is succint, what can you say?”
Officer Dangle
July 13th, 2009
3:35 pm
Marvin Williams would definitely be a top 15 small forward in the WNBA.
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:36 pm
KevinA, I say we bring EVERYONE in and WIN A TITLE!!!!
J.J.M.
July 13th, 2009
3:37 pm
lol@officer thats cold
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:39 pm
Marvin would Be a Center in the WNBA…
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:40 pm
….I’m Just sayin.
Melvin
July 13th, 2009
3:40 pm
Aroise,
I see that my Ryan Hollins train has pickup steam on the blog. Now we need to get the memo to Sund…
Ariose
July 13th, 2009
3:43 pm
Melvin, Yup.
…….RICK NEEDS A TWITTER!!!!! HAWKS BRASS GET ON THAT ASAP!!!!!
Keep It Real from ATL
July 13th, 2009
3:44 pm
The comparisons are great and the debate is certainly interesting. However, the question is are we comparing apples and apples? The most important point being ignored or in fact not being mentioned enough, was highlighted by Ken Strick…..Marvin is the 4th OFF option on this team. Most of the other SF’s mentioned are either the 1st or 2nd options on their respective teams.
Let me give you a breakdown of pts per minute over their careers. Interpret it how you wish:
Carmelo (FG – 46%) – .66pts/min (1st option); Battier (41%) – .30 (4th or 5th option); Durant (45%) – .62 (1st option); Gay (45%) – .49 (at least 1st or 2nd); Iggy (47%) – .41 (1st option); Lebron (47%) – .68 (no question here); Tayshaun (46%) – .38 (2nd or 3rd); Gerald Wallace (48%) – .44 (1st or 2nd); Marvin (45%) – .39 (4th option).
Read that how you wish. I can’t over-emphasize Ken Strick’s point…..Marvin is the 4th option. If you look at the list above and compare all the 4th options, where would Marvin fall?
Stats can tell you pretty much what you want them to tell you. However, I have to agree with the point being implied by Ken Strick. It is therefore reasonable to assume that if Marvin was a 1st or 2nd option then his numbers would more than likely increase. Again I am sure there are other factors that can be brought in to refute what I am saying. I guess Rod will now say Battier is a defensive stopper. I may say he has had an 8 year career therefore compare the players when Marvin has had 8 years in the league. So we could go on and on. What can I say?
One thing’s for sure, the Hawks management feel Marvin is worth resigning and so do I as do many on this blog.
Go Hawks!!!
niremetal
July 13th, 2009
3:45 pm
Ariose,
I summarized it all for Chill. He’s in the bag
WEAK BLOGS, WEAK REPORTING
July 13th, 2009
3:47 pm
WHY ARE THESE BLOGS SO ANEMIC? HALF OF THIS BLOG IS FROM A PREVIOUS BLOG LAST WEEK.
THE ARTICLES POSTED HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR TEAM. SEKOU SPENDS ALL HIS TIME WRITING ABOUT WHAT FREE AGENTS HAVE GONE WHERE. WE KNOW THAT SHAQ WENT TO CLEVELAND AND IT WAS A BIG MOVE. DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO WASTE OUR TIME AND YOUR TIME REPORTING THIS IN AN ARTICLE?
FREAKING UPDATE US ON WHAT OUR PLAYERS OUR DOING? WHERE IS JOE? WHAT IS JOSH SMITH DOING TO IMPROVE HIS GAME?
REPLY TO OUR INSIGHTFUL QUESTIONS
STOP TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT.
MARK BRADLEY WRITES 3 ARTICLES A DAY (NO MATTER HOW SHORT THEY ARE).
Officer Dangle
July 13th, 2009
3:51 pm
Sekou Smith would definitely be a top-15 sports reporter on a middle-school newspaper.