Super Tuesday
The Hawks are the midst of trying to negotiate deals for both Marvin Williams (left) and Zaza Pachulia (center), two key free agents needed to help the Hawks keep pace in the constantly improving (and I mean by the day) Eastern Conference.
HAWKSVILLE - NBA free agents can put pen to paper Wednesday, consummating deals that have been in the works for days (and perhaps even longer for some).
The heavy lifting for the Hawks, however, comes a day early.
Hawks general manager Rick Sund is on his way to Washington D.C., where he will sit down with the representatives for three of the Hawks’ key free agents (Marvin Williams, Zaza Pachulia and Josh Childress) to hammer out the details of at least a couple of potential deals.
With Mike Bibby’s new deal needing only signatures, the Hawks can devote all the attention and resources necessary to the aforementioned players, and yes, that includes Childress (whose saga might not play out until after the July 15 deadline he has to either opt out of his contract with Olympiakos to return home and to the NBA. David Andersen, another player on the Hawks’ shopping list, has the same clause in his Spanish contract).
Folks keep asking what’s the latest on (All THE HAWKS’ SUMMER TARGETS)? So here’s a rundown, early on a day I’m dubbing Super Tuesday, of where things stand with the key players (and for a sobering look at just how crazy free agency is working this summer, check out this dagger from ESPN Insider and Alpharetta’s own John Hollinger):
MARVIN WILLIAMS: Using Charlie Villanueva’s deal in Detroit (5 years, $40 million-range) as your guide, things should get much easier to decipher in the curious case of Marvin Williams. With a qualifying offer of $7.5 million, we’re not talking about anything out of the ordinary her for a guy that’s proved to be a valuable starter the past three years. Finding another 6-9 starting small forward that fits the way he does on this team will not be easy, despite all of the suggestions around here to the contrary. Respected and prolific colleague Mark Bradley has suggested many times that if any of the Hawks’ remaining building blocks was expendable it was Marvin. But as I look across the free agent landscape, I cannot co-sign that theory. Not with the free agent moves/trades that have gone on in the Eastern Conference since draft night. Not with Hedo Turkoglu in Toronto now and Vince Carter in his old spot in Orlando. And not with Villanueva in Detroit and the addition of Rasheed Wallace in Boston. The length the Hawks used to their advantage across the frontline with Williams, Josh Smith and Al Horford is more critical than ever. Even in one of the many proposed sign-and-trade deals offered up around these parts, I don’t see the Hawks adding the piece that could take Marvin’s place on this roster (in fit, size and temperament … three crucial factors that Marvin brings that go largely unnoticed by the public). The Hawks have made clear their preference for Marvin to remain a part of the core of this team and I see no reason why that shouldn’t happen. I can’t see any scenario where he is not a part of this team in the future.
ZAZA PACHULIA: Much has been made in the past 72 hours about Zaza’s impending departure and his being replaced by Andersen, or a combination of players that includes the Australian big man. Slow down with that one. Sources tell me that while initially things didn’t look too good with the offer that was presented to him by the Hawks, the sides are working their way toward more agreeable terms (we’re talking slightly north of the $16 million over four years he signed for the last time he was a free agent but decidedly south of the $33 million over five years Marcin Gortat is expected to receive from Dallas). And in an Eastern Conference littered with bigs like Dwight Howard in Orlando, Shaquille O’Neal in Cleveland and now Wallace, Kevin Garnett and Kendrick Perkins in Boston (and that’s just on the teams that finished ahead of the Hawks in the standings last season), that’s a good thing. Because the Hawks can ill-afford to lose a player like Zaza. He’s the only real bruiser on the roster. He’ll set a hard pick and has shown he’s not afraid to mix it up with the likes of Garnett and Howard. And while I’m not heavy into the stats that seem to guide so many people’s opinions about players, I do believe that some numbers tell a far different story than what the heart and mind can. There were six regular season games and three playoff games during the 2008-2009 season where Zaza played 30-plus minutes. He averaged 9.8 points, 10.1 rebounds (and 4.1 offensive rebounds) in those games. That means when he was needed to play above and beyond his pay grade, Pachulia delivered.
JOSH CHILDRESS: Like Andersen, Childress would do better financially (at least in the next year or two) by returning to Greece for another season with Olympiakos. But if he’s intent on returning to the NBA this summer, and there are indications that he would indeed love to return, things could get tricky. Childress has already visited Milwaukee. And the Bucks could present him with an offer sheet and gamble that the Hawks might not match it (fat chance). The obvious solution for both sides would be a sign-and-trade deal (the starting salary for Childress wouldn’t even be the full mid-level of $5.6 million, though the total contract would be nearly $31 million over five years). The Bucks have all the necessary tools to make something like that happen. Whatever happens, the Hawks need to close the door on the Childress saga that began last summer during his first round of restricted free agency. His jersey number was given away last summer (to Mo Evans) in a way that should have signaled the end of his time with the Hawks to all of us. I know I’ve spent much of the last year plotting hypothetical scenarios in which he could return to the Hawks. I realize now, finally, it’s just not going to happen. So if there is any way to salvage a player (Bruce Bowen has been mentioned) and a possible second-round draft pick out of the deal, the Hawks could finally walk away from the entire mess with some measure of satisfaction.
Resolve two of the three issues above by July 15 and the Hawks will have made some serious headway into a summer that’s long from over. The roster still needs filling out. And that might not come until much later in the summer and possibly even training camp, where a hungry free agent pickup like Mario West won roster spots in each of the past two camps.
The Hawks will still have the resources to chase down another big man (or possibly two) to fill out the rotation, which is still in need of fortification. But the heavy lifting starts today in D.C.
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636 comments Add your comment
niremetal
July 8th, 2009
4:05 pm
Oh, LeBron. How I’m losing respect for you every day. This is just sad:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/LeBron-gets-dunked-on-by-Xavier-player-confisca;_ylt=AhWk54v8_7W7EsCv4bCOqm.8vLYF?urn=ncaab,175293
First, the classless exit after losing to the Magic and the even more classless explanation (”I’m a winner, therefore I shouldn’t have to congratulate other people when they win”). If the above report is true, it’s just petty and indicative of someone whose ego has outgrown his considerable talent.
As I said, sad.
Wabe
July 8th, 2009
4:06 pm
Guess Sund’s on a role now…
Now let’s reel in Marvin,
Get a mid-level BIG,
and we can call that an OFFSEASON!
Wabe
July 8th, 2009
4:07 pm
By the way, just seen that article on yahoo NIRE,
LeBron’s a bum
cp
July 8th, 2009
4:08 pm
Sund is handling his business. If we can add another quality big then I think we can even be better than last year. People get over Flip. I like what he did for us but we don’t need more guards we need bigs. And I would rather have Hunter at the end of the bench than Mario. I think Hunter will be a good player in the future. I know Mario hustles and all but I would rather have a guy who has more skills than just hustle.
Melvin
July 8th, 2009
4:09 pm
“Mavs sign G Quinton Ross
The Mavs are finishing the paperwork on re-signing Jason Kidd and on extending an offer sheet to Orlando center Marcin Gortat. The club also is trying to bring back free agents Brandon Bass and James Singleton.”
Nire, MannyT or whoever else.
How in the heck can the Mavs sign Ross (UFA), Gortat (Full MLE), and Brandon Bass (UFA)? Do they have a cap hold and bird rights for Bass?
dap01
July 8th, 2009
4:11 pm
Lebron, it will be fun to not like you anymore. No class.
niremetal
July 8th, 2009
4:17 pm
Mel,
Yeah, they have bird rights for Bass, so they can re-sign him (and Singleton) regardless of their cap situation. Can’t be sure about Ross, but there’s two possibilities that immediately come to mind assuming that they are spending their full mid-level on Gortat. First, they might have a bi-annual exception that they’re using to sign Ross. Second, they might be signing him to a minimum-salary contract (like we did with RandMo), which is another cap exception – teams can sign players for the minimum salary regardless of their cap situation (as long as they don’t exceed the roster size limit).
Big Ray
July 8th, 2009
4:25 pm
Kirk ,
I had to laugh at your initial questions. I don’t know for certain if Woodson is a dead man walking or not, but I do like his attitude. Pure professionalism at this point, and whether or not that translates to an extension…ehh, probably has nothing to do with it.
On the flip side of the coin, the burden of proof is on him. If he succeeds with this team, however it ends up being constructed by season’s start, does he not deserve an extension? Some are of the opinion that this team is being built with the purpose of getting him fired. While that is a possibility, it comes with a chuckle. Seems to me that this team was always built to be a running team since Knight got his grip on it, only there were some pieces missing for the longest time (a decent pg being the foremost piece).
Has this team ever been built to play halfcourt? I think not, and therefore the theory that it has suddenly become that seems false to me. One of the most pivotal pieces of a halfcourt team is a dominant frontcourt/post player. Have we ever had one of those since Knight arrived? No. Theory debunked right there. But I digress, and this is hardly the point (though it makes for a great diversion).
I agree that a lot hinges on what happens in the frontcourt. But Zaza has already agreed to terms, so some of that is solved. As for additional resources in that area, it’s going to be a hard road to hoe.
Why do people assume that Sund has not made attempts to shore that area up? Are we really to assume that because it has not happened yet that it will NOT happen? I’m tired of saying that it’s only July 8th, not November 8th. As you would say, now is not squishy time. We can save that for later, if we cross that bridge.
Good questions about why Sund is moving at a quicker and more deliberate pace this time around. I am not fool enough to think I have the correct answers, but I assure you that I am pleased with his pace as it stands right now.
Marvin has been a victim of his draft status in the minds of fans since day 1. His production is steady as a rock, but he doesn’t stand out. Pretty much ever. He’s not the leader in any major category that I can think of, and maybe not in the top three of most…that being in comparison to his teammates, not the rest of the league at his position.
Am I taking shots at the guy? No. But that may be one reason why you don’t see the same outcry, despite the fact that Marvin is a necessity. Both the Joshes were more dynamic players. Is it right or wrong? No, it is what it is. I’d rather see him either signed to a long term contract that’s reasonable, or traded for a highly useable piece, than see him go on the one year qualifier.
Najeh Davenpoop
July 8th, 2009
4:32 pm
Nice to see the Hawks proactively taking care of signing Bibby and Zaza. I love Bibby’s deal — like many others have pointed out that is a bargain for a guy who can do what he can do. You have to rank the Hawks’ backcourt among the top 5 in the league at this point, in terms of talent and depth.
I’m a little concerned when I see that Zaza got a “substantial” raise. Not trying to say he doesn’t deserve some sort of pay increase, but Zaza’s old deal paid him $4 million per year, and the Birdman just signed for slightly over $5 million. I think Zaza deserves as much as the Birdman, but not a whole lot more. 4 years at around $22 million is acceptable — more than that and it would make me wonder. But from a purely on-court point of view it’s nice to have Zaza back.
Now if the Hawks can add another piece to the front court using Childress as a bargaining chip and keep Marvin at a reasonable salary, I’m happy. I’d say Sund has already met expectations, and depending on the caliber of big man with whom he rounds out the front court rotation he could significantly exceed them.
Hoops
July 8th, 2009
4:34 pm
With the announcement today that the cap will be lower next year than this year, I’ll be surprised if Marvin does not sign a long term deal this summer! I had though that he would take the QO before the announcement today. There will be even less money next year to spread around. Look for the big name FA’s to re-up with their teams this summer as well.
Big Ray
July 8th, 2009
4:36 pm
O’Brien,
Good point about Riley, LOL!
niremetal
July 8th, 2009
4:46 pm
Wow…good point about Marvin, Hoops. I hadn’t even thought about that. Lucky us, because lord knows someone will offer him a big raise next summer if they strike out on the big-time FAs and he’s available…
O'Brien
July 8th, 2009
4:46 pm
Hoops,
The problem with Marvin, is how much do you offer him? Trevor Ariza just signed for 5 years at the mid-level, did Ron Artest signed 3 years, at the midlevel (although Charlie V signed for 5 years, $40 mil). I would offer Marvin 4 years, between $24-$28 mil.
With the lower salary cap next year, I wonder if JJ would be more willing to sign an extension now?
I heard an interesting discussion on the radio this morning. With the lower cap next year, I doubt LeBron will go to the Knicks. The belief was that the Knicks would be able to sign 2 players to near max contracts next offseason. However, with a lower salary cap this year and next, I dont think the Knicks can afford LeBron and Wade, or LeBron and Bosh. I think LeBron stays in Cleveland.
Anakin Joe
July 8th, 2009
4:47 pm
Sautee and Ray, thanks. Do you not understand that there are two parts of a trade… what you send out and what you get back? Is it possible to object to one side of that equation? I think so. I have never objected to what went out the door, just what came back. Sund has made 4 moves, I have objected to 2 of 4. I don’t think that equals 100% of a disapproval rate. Does your math suggest differently?
In the past, you have challenged me about how much credit Woody should get for last season’s success. While your response to me did include some accountability for the players, I saw quite a bit for the coaching staff. So what do you think? 50/50 split between players and coaches? 60/40 coach/players?
If you were Sund, would you have focused on the defense or offense based on your evaluation? Neither are perfect. Which bucket would have received most of your off-season marbles. For me, defense (which is the sole reason I objected to Crawford and Teague).
And I truly have no idea why it matters what I feel about Woody and his feeling toward these new players. Who cares? It’s all lip-service. How am I supposed to know that he wasn’t sitting there with a Ty Lawson hard-on when it appeared he would be available? He said what he needed to say, I have no idea about the sincerety (and don’t care). If Teague impresses early (like Horford did), then Woody will make time for him.
I like it when we debate name-to-name. The back of the classroom spitball shooting I think is childish. If I’m guilty of the same, call me out. But I think that I usually try to address your opinions by name. I just think it makes for more respectful debating. Again, if I have failed to do that, my apologies. I did 5th grade, I have no plans on a return engagement.
Melvin
July 8th, 2009
4:47 pm
Nire,
Thx it makes sense now. I couldn’t research their free agent status from my work computer….
wordsmithtom
July 8th, 2009
4:51 pm
Don’t post much. Enjoy the BB chatter. A lot of smart BB followers here. This blog is an asset to Atlanta. Keep up the civility…..
Excellent resigning in ZAZA. Big men take time to develop. Z’s still young. He also loves Atlanta. Remember, he’s from Georgia, and when the Ruskies threatened his homeland, our Atlanta rallied around him. He loves it here and wants to show HE CAN. He showed in the playoffs he is not scared to mix it up. You have to love that in a backup center. Can shoot; knows the system; will do the grunt work. No ego at play.
One more big man off the bench and an offer to Marvin wraps it up. Chills for a backup big man?? Or, part of a bigger trade with JS….less likely.
These young guns need to be kept and built around. Boston getting older; we’re still youngest team in the league with a bullet…..
No, I don’t expect a championship with this group, but I do expect a solid 3/4 finish and who knows if Shaq breaks a leg and Boston shows its grey beard….and they are OLD….
We are deeper and more experienced than last year. I like this team. A lot.
MannyT
July 8th, 2009
4:54 pm
kirknga,
I think the lack of trend says more about Americans than the opportunity. Given the news about the salary cap, I’d suspect that there is more moeny in Europe for some average unrestricted free agents. If you factor in the tax benefits, a MLE deal here for 3 years seems like it would be worse than 3 yrs/9 mil in Europe once you factor in tax benefits and free housing.
Most US folks are not the multi lingual country traveling types that you find in the smaller countries abroad.
Moving on to a basic thought about the lower cap predictions…
I think the shift that we have to keep an eye on with a declining cap and stagnant economy is how you improve your team. Unrestricted free agency will be more difficult to do for better players. More teams will be up against the luxury tax and fewer will be under the salary cap as it shrinks. I’m thinking you start using more of a baseball model and try to move an UFA for some value if you don’t think you can keep him. That guy might be eager to get traded to a better team to get a better chance to get paid and win. Our comparison would be Bibby. If he had never been traded here, it would have been difficult to offer him more than MLE money so it would be unlikely that we could have signed him as an UFA if we wanted him.
For all the summer canniblogging, I think this would work a little better than spitballs.
http://www.klov.com/F/Food_Fight.html
Mel– niremetal nailed the money thing as usual.
Hoops–the one thing that is different about next summer (even with a lower cap) is that many teams were jockeying to get below the salary cap. Not all of them can sign the big names. That means there could be cap room available for that 2nd & 3rd tier of free agents. In Marvin’s case, it’s about the back. If he is healthy, his unique size may provide more opportunity. If he isn’t that is a huge problem with a lower MLE. I think he signs a multi year deal here, this summer. Maybe 3 years with player option for 4th year.
BWAF
Dos Hawkquis
July 8th, 2009
4:54 pm
NIRE’,
Thanks for that feed on lebron. I will be sure to chant “Jordan Crawford!!” when they play here next year!! Wow!!
“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay hungry Hawks fans!”
niremetal
July 8th, 2009
4:58 pm
Dos Hawkquis,
That’s an AMAZING idea…we should seriously start a movement to get opposing teams’ fans to do that.
Mitch
July 8th, 2009
5:00 pm
Ken, Big Ray, Rad, etc. regarding Woody…and all the great points you are making. How would you grade Woody in the following areas?
1. Developing Young Players. __
2. Coaching Defense: ____
3. Coaching Offense: ___
4. Situational Coaching (late game strategies…plays, out of bounds plays, timeouts, etc.): ____
5. Building Team Morale: ____
6. Melding With Assistant Coaches: ____
7. In Game Temperament: ____
8. Game Preparation: ____
9. Motivational Skills: ____
10. Substitution Decisions: ____
Here are my answers:
1. Developing Young Talent: D. Josh Smith has improved, but still plays out of control, and is not on the same page. Marvin’s skills and defense have improved. Other than that…anyone see any improvement in Solomon Jones, A.C. Law, Shelden Williams, etc.
2. Coaching Def: B. I often wish the help was faster and more aggressive…and at times the on ball defense is awful. But, the rest of it is solid, and teaching defense is clearly Woody’s strength.
3. Coaching Offense: C-. Until Bibby arrived, this was an F. We did see more plays and better executed plays last year. But Woody still won’t run anything but isolations late in game.
4. Situational Coaching: D. Tempted to say F here, but JJ has bailed Woody and the team out here and there. The players do not look well rehearsed or coached in late game situations…and their out of bounds plays are consistently atrocious.
5. Building Morale: C+. Woody has a fire to him and he can use it to his advantage at times. I think behind the scenes he’s a lot more gregarious with his players than we think.
6. Melding With Assistant Coaches: C-. This is hard to gauge…but unlike Larry Brown and other coaches, do we often see him turning to his staff for input? He seems like a one man show out there…which is too bad because his staff probably has some good answers during games that Woody may not even be privy to,
7. In Game Temperament: C-. The inimitable look of astonishment or befuddlement or whatever it is. He does lead the league in facial expressions that simply say WTF???? He does stay relatively composed, though, even though it looks like he’s about to explode at any minute. He works the official every night…but because he sidelines demeanor is so sour to begin with, his working of the officials may not be much to his or the team’s advantage.
8. Game Preparation: D. This is the biggest concern. How may times do we have to hear from Woody after a game: ” we came out flat…we had no energy tonight”???
9. Ability to Motivate: D. I think the players basically like and/or tolerate Woody…because they basically do their own thing and motivate themselves and each other. This is probably true on most NBA teams in this era. But, imagine what this talented team might be able to do with a strong motivator? Imagine too how much more quickly the young talent could be developed…the better the teaching and motivation = the faster the confidence. Plus…Woody seems to be a motivate through fear type—which does not sit well with today’s athletes. Phil Jackson motivates through intelligence. Dock Rivers motivates through emotion and intensity…etc.
10. Substitution Decisions: C+. Woody does get in a groove at times (he did a very good job rotating Bibby and Flip, for example and he got good starts from Evans when needed)…the problem is he squanders opportunities to play his young players more regularly, rather than just giving them token or cameo appearances.
Now—all this said—I felt as if Woody showed some solid improvements last year—and I actually grew to like him a lot more—I just think he should delegate some of the more strategic aspect to his assistants and do a better job of preparing his team and giving them incentives to be special. So, it will be interesting to see what he does this year and how far he takes this team.
Your grades and thoughts? Anyone?
MannyT
July 8th, 2009
5:03 pm
Melvin–one of the things that people sleep on with all the money floating around the NBA is what most NBA players actually make. The MLE is an average salary, but the big contracts skew reality. The median (middle of the line) salary for an NBA guy is about $3 mil. To get a sense of it I took a peek at the Milwaukee salaries on Hoopshype. (I chose them because they rank 15th out of 30 and have 14 players on the list for 2009-10 so they are about done with the roster.) If you rank them by pay and go halfway through the salaries you get about 3.5 mil.
I did further research to nail down the median numbers for the past season, but no need to go ultra geek here. Bottom line, most players make less than the MLE…always have, probably always will.
BWAF
Dos Hawkquis
July 8th, 2009
5:06 pm
CONSPIRACY THEORIST?
Listen, I know the economy is shot and I, GUESS, I understand why the NBA salary cap would drop to to 53mil next year, supposedly. But revenues went up by 2.5% this past year.
But with the projected drop, all of the big stars will have to stay put!! Lebron stays in Cleveland. Bosh stays in Toronto. D. Wade stays put and JJ stays with the Hawks. All of the stars staying put bodes well for the league.
You don’t want one or two teams “loaded” with talent, so that other teams can’t compete. With the talent scattered, everyone has a shot and more interesting for fans, cities, and boookies!!
THOUGHTS??
Remember Patrick “Chewing” going to New York?
“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay hungry Hawks fans!”
Najeh Davenpoop
July 8th, 2009
5:07 pm
“I would offer Marvin 4 years, between $24-$28 mil.”
I would love to see him re-sign for that amount. The problem is that his qualifying offer at $7.3 million is higher than the average salary of that deal, which means it would probably be a worthwhile gamble for him to just sign the one-year qualifying offer and become an unrestricted free agent next year, gambling that the economy will improve by then to the point where he can get a much better deal. I don’t see him signing a long-term deal for less than $8 million annually, and if he can’t find that this year from the Hawks or another team I would think he just signs the qualifying offer. Of course I don’t have any inside information or anything, so it’s just me guessing, but logically that would seem to make the most sense from his point of view.
Anakin Joe
July 8th, 2009
5:14 pm
Mitch, I think several of those categories are hard to grade because we don’t have insight. I have no idea about his interaction with his assistant coaches. Or what happens with his pre-game preparation. I’m fairly certain that he tells them to play with energy and make their free throws but he can’t do much to actually ensure that happens.
Last season, I’d give Woody a solid B. (Each front-court player missed at least 10 games and he had to incoporate Mo and Flip into a shortened player rotation). For his duration as Hawks HC, probably a C-.
One more thing, they used to say that the only man who could stop Michael Jordan was Dean Smith. Because Smith employed a system that most individual players could not shine brightly over their teammates. For all of the noise about Portland selecting Bowie over Jordan, who predicted that an SG at that time would reign over the NBA?
I think we tend to focus too much on how well a single player looks on the Hawks. Woody tends to abuse all of his players to meet team goals. But I think the fact that some of these guys are quickly returning to the Hawks is a far better indicator of how they feel about Woody (and his ability to maintain their status as a winning team) than anything that we think that we know based on our observations. I think that a guy like Bibby (who has been a winner in the NCAA and NBA) wouldn’t play out the last few seasons of his career with a loser.
Anakin Joe
July 8th, 2009
5:17 pm
Najeh, if I’m Marvin, I’m signing a 3-year deal. And I’m not sure that Sund should object to that. That back injury makes me VERY, VERY nervous.
O'Brien
July 8th, 2009
5:19 pm
Najeh,
If Marvin waits until next year to sign a long term deal, the salary cap is projected to be lower, so there is a strong possibility that he will not get the money he is looking for.
Plus with JJ’s contract expiring, I’m sure Marvin knows that resigning JJ would be priority #1. JJ will get a raise, which takes more money away from Marvin. And I really dont see any team out there giving Marvin $8 mil or more annually.
Sekou,
Now that we’ve got Bibby and ZaZa signed, any news on Marvin?
Melvin
July 8th, 2009
5:20 pm
MannyT,
You don’t have to worry about talking over my head when it comes to numbers. You must have forgot that I was a Mathematics major. I’m aware of the difference between Median and Average. The median is a more accurate way of identifying the amount most players make. Average tells you everything but the truth when using a large sample pool especially when you have extremely high variables (KG contract 24 mil) and extremely low variables (vet/rook min player 800K est). Adding those two salaries together and dividing by 2 will not provide an accurate account of NBA players salaries…
terrell barron
July 8th, 2009
5:24 pm
Daniel, I never mentioned Marvin in a deal for Priz. Never. It was Bibby/Mo/Morris. I like Bibby(probably as not as much as you do), but we still haven’t addressed our interior defense. What would you rather have? Interior defense or a guy who is average at best offensively, and a guy who forces your best player to guard the opposing pg on the defensive end? And I think you guys are forgetting something. This team only won 37 games after Bibby got here, and almost lost the 8 spot. It was Indiana, and they gave it to us.Hell, they probably coulda one that many with T-Lue and AJ. Yeah, we one 47 the next year, but who are we to say that we wouldn’t have done the same thing with one of the before mentioned pg’s? After all, Marvin, Smoove, Al, and Zaza all got better. And JJ has the ball in his hands 80% of the time anyway. In Woody’s offense, all the team really needs is a pg who can throw Josh Smith alleyoops and hit open 3’s. I’m sure Bibby could be replaced. We need another Big man. Point blank! Not bashing on your boy Bibby. But if we have to include him in the deal, so be it. Just wait until the season starts, and Bibby is in one of those 5 game funks, and were making a guy like Brooke Lopez look like a young Shaquille O’neal. I’m sure you remember that one. And that’s just one of many. You’ll be agreeing with me then. lol
terrell barron
July 8th, 2009
5:32 pm
I tell you what Daniel, how bout we keep Bibby and Mo and go out and sign Mcgloire, Wilcox, Mikki Moore or somebody. Hell, I’d even be happy with Dikembe.
Sekou Smith
July 8th, 2009
5:46 pm
Nothing on Marvin yet. I don’t suspect that his deal will get done as soon as these others because there is much haggling to do over the length and compensation of his deal. It’s been detailed rather extensively above. Get some sleep tonight folks. I don’t suspect we’ll have any new to report about Marvin (though you know things can change instantly). Stay tuned as always.
I have to admit, this is the hottest start to a summer I can remember in my time here when you factor in the Crawford trade, a solid draft and then work like this on the first day of free agency. Not bad. Not bad at all.
mudfoot
July 8th, 2009
5:51 pm
SEKOU,
I think that this will be the best season ever. I can’t wait til camp starts!!
ant banks
July 8th, 2009
5:56 pm
all of the woody haters are gonna have to get on board. don’t hate the man, hate the game!! if woody takes us to the playoffs again, and a 2nd rnd appearance, again, ASG will have to re-up this guy.
how can you justify by not doin’ this?
O'Brien
July 8th, 2009
5:56 pm
Great Job Sekou.
All we need now is Marvin and a backup PF, and the roster will be set.
kirkinga
July 8th, 2009
5:56 pm
Ray, well at least you give Coach Woodson a descent chance of surviving the season, that’s more than I can do and I believe the team could suffer greatly from the lack of a Head Coach supported by the organization.
Rather than rehash, the Woodson-as-scapegoat argument, I will ask why you and others believe this is a team “built to run”? I disagree. I think they can run, but I don’t think they rebound or shoot well enough, or create turnovers well enough to be a “running team”.
I think people see young athletes, particularly a Josh Smith and believe the Hawks are “runners”. But the fundamentals of the game do not change, you cannot run if you don’t outrebound the other team, or shoot at a high percentage. Running also does not help teams that do not make good decisions in their offense.
The lack of size and depth on the frontline hurts no matter what style of ball the team wishes to play. When we get to the playoffs, it’s a halfcourt game anyway. So if the Hawks want to go deeper into the playoffs, they best worry about defending, rebounding, and executing in the halfcourt.
No, the frontcourt worries are real and there’s no running away from them, if you will. But you can change the coach midesason!
Go Hawks!!
SB
July 8th, 2009
6:04 pm
Sekou……… After Marvin who’s next. Do you have a list of names we should look out for?
Mitch
July 8th, 2009
6:04 pm
Anakin Joe:
Good points about having to speculate without inside info on Woody. I made my assessments judged by my own perceptions. But, that may not have been fair. I accept that.
I respect the B you give for Woody last year.
So many of the games frustrated me, however. The lack of energy and enthusiasm in some of the games—far too many for my liking—made me question whether I should have put up the $200 to purchase the NBA package on Direct TV to watch my Hawks.
I did find Woody much more likable last year…but I was still frustrated by the inconsistent preparation, late game decisions and how disorganized and stagnant the Hawks looked in those situations.
Here in Boston…I have to say, it’s so impressive how hard the Celtics play every night…even when their big guys are sidelined, like Garnett, the players step up even harder to compensate…and it’s far more easy to see the impact of the coaching, as things happen after timeouts where you just go “wow—what a great call.” (I honestly cannot count on one hand the times I’ve thought wow what a great call late in a Hawks game—I say wow what a great shot if JJ connects—but all the standing around and all the confusion irks me to no end). Plus, the Celtics’ emphasis on defense and their game plans defensively conducted by one of the assistant coaches is really quite exemplary. You really get the sense that they are extremely well prepared.
And the thing is: Doc Rivers faced a couple years back the futility that Woody faced…as the Celtics were cellar dwellers. But Rivers persevered. I am hoping for bigger things for Woody, but I have yet to feel the same sense of preparedness in the Hawks that I feel when watching the Celtics…although, as I said, I think strides were made last year, albeit inconsistent ones.
dan
July 8th, 2009
6:10 pm
Trade Marvin and pick for Amare. We would win the east and could content for championship.
twitter me at DMHCPA
niremetal
July 8th, 2009
6:21 pm
ding
O'Brien
July 8th, 2009
6:24 pm
Well, we can (officially) cross McDyess of the board too. It is being reported that he will sign with the Spurs for a 2 year deal, $11.7 mil.
I wonder if the Hawks will use their mid-level to sign a backup PF?
Wabe
July 8th, 2009
6:33 pm
Never really thought a vet like McDyess would wanna come to a young up and coming club like ATL over teams that have realistic chances to conetend for a championship.
Samuel
July 8th, 2009
6:34 pm
Rivers persevered or Rivers aquired two more Hall of Famers?
Mitch
July 8th, 2009
6:35 pm
I think OB…Sund will surprise us with a nifty signing or trade. He’s clearly on a roll and I think he’s got the puzzle pieces figured out. Stay tuned!
Mitch
July 8th, 2009
6:46 pm
Samuel:
Yes Rivers was the beneficiary of some great deals by Danny Ainge, no question. BUT…let me say this…watching the Celtics play night after night…they are as motivated as any team I have seen EVER. No game is trivial to them. I kid you not. They could have rested on their laurels last year especially when Garnett was out, but they came full-bore at everybody with a lineup that, I will tell you, without Garnett, was worse talent-wise than the Hawks’.
Big Ray
July 8th, 2009
6:46 pm
Astro Joe,
I don’t have an issue with your objections. I just disagreed with them. We could argue the semantics of why, but I think we’d be wasting time at this point, having revisited it already.
I don’t think addressing defense and offense is as black and white as you make it out to be. If I’m Sund, I’ve been doing my homework long before the offseason came along. I’ve been talking to people about different deals. And I’ve been talking to my coach (hey, he did say he wanted his input). If I 1) Come to the conclusion that we can get the job done on defense with the guys we have as long as they mature and get it together through organic growth, or 2) See that there are very few feasible/reasonable deals that make sense to ramp up my defense…then I concentrate more on offense.
If I have some deals in the works that look good for significantly improving my defense, then I pursue those first. The key word here is “significantly.” Having evaluated this team and put a bunch of feelers out there, perhaps the conclusion he came to was that he could make a more significant upgrade to the offense than he could to the defense.
Of course, we’d have to know what he knew about availability of certain players to have an educated opinion. However, we don’t, so it’s all assumption, and probably inaccurate as hell.
As for determining who gets credit for what, or who is responsible for what, I don’t prefer the 50/50, 60/40, or 70/30 scales. I think there is way more room for blame and less for responsibility by using that method. Although, I will say that it makes for a wonderful debate (or a tiring one, depending on how you see it).
I feel that the coaching staff has their responsibilities as set forth by the GM, and the players have their responsibilities as set forth by the coaching staff, who must determine the roles of each of these guys.
Players are going to get credit for executing on the floor, and making the right plays. Coaches get credit for putting guys in the right places at the right times (including substitutions) and helping to hold it all together when things get rough. It’s kind of like the players are labor division, and the coaches are management.
I think giving credit to guys for doing what they are supposed to do is better than deciding how much credit to give certain people (players or coaches alike) for the total results.
But that’s just an opinion.
Finally, I realize that I have not answered all of the questions (I had to re-post this after losing it, and it’s just not worth it) you asked, but I will conclude with this: I prefer debating name to name as well. I have been known to do the spitball thing to poke at somebody in fun, or to let somebody else get a taste of their own medicine.
Either way, there is no point in engaging in a “who started it debate”. Instead, I choose to agree to avoid the spitballing with those whom I know I can debate openly and freely with. Since that should include you, no more spitballs in your direction…at least not the mean kind…
The Truth
July 8th, 2009
6:46 pm
It seems to be unanimous; we need another “Big” even after Zaza has apparently agreed to a new contract. But we are still in denial as to WHY we need yet another “BIG”. Since Morris is already under a .8M contract for another year, there is no reason to focus on him (you pay for what for what you get, in this case, a bench warmer or at least Woody think so). In Morris defense, however, he shows me offense potential with a true center body, but Woody never exploits it. But Solo is another case. When we say “WE NEED ANOTHER BIG”; aren’t we really saying, Solo is ineffective and we need an upgrade? The problem with Solo is that his skill set makes him more of a center than a PF but he doesn’t carry another weight to man the post. He has the length but not the size. At 245lbs, he is usually out muscled when he is matched against most centers. Since Al Horford is also 245lbs, do we need two light weight centers? He has the instincts to defend and block shots, but after 3yrs in the NBA, he still lacks technique and is usually a foul magnet with his arms. Since his offense is irrelevant as well, it begs the question; what is the purpose of Solo? If we are in a cost cutting mode with the lower cap outlook, should we re-think how we use our bench? Do we just fill out the roster with ineffective bodies that rarely plays? Perhaps we should select backups with starter-like potential. In this market, they should be easy to find.
Big Ray
July 8th, 2009
6:48 pm
Kirk,
I promise I’ll respond in greater detail later, but for now this will have to suffice.
I believe there is a fundamental difference in “built to run” and “taught to run.” This team is built to do it, but does not execute in such fashion. The why of it is a subject of much debate. Stay tuned.
Dos Hawkquis
July 8th, 2009
6:52 pm
I am really surprised at Joe Dumars. For years everyone was deferring to him as the blueprint for a GM. Even after the Darko over ‘Melo debacle, he was still considered a good GM.
But then the Michael Curry experiment, and the AI experiment, and the firing of Michael Curry, and the Avery Johnson not getting the job, and then the 20 yr asst., non NBA head coaching experience John Kuester becoming the coach.
I am starting to reevaluate Joe Dumars ability to GM. I am also, starting to reevaluate Billy, in light of the Hawks recent success with Billy’s players.
“I don’t always watch basketball, but when I do, I prefer the Hawks. Stay hungry Hawks fans!!”
Blast
July 8th, 2009
7:03 pm
Get one more big, Hawks, and bring back Flip. You can never have too many good guards. Hawks have Joe, Bibby, Teague and Jamal. But it only takes injuries to any two of them to deplete the squad. Bring back Flip. He deserves a raise after how he helped Hawks last season.
niremetal
July 8th, 2009
7:06 pm
Yeah…I would not bet against Billy getting another team’s GM job sometime in the next year or two.
Anakin Joe
July 8th, 2009
7:20 pm
Ray, fair enough.
Mitch, th Celtics’ B-Ball IQ is off the charts compared to the Hawks. I started the off-season asking for players that would come with aptitude and attitude. Smarts and toughness. When Joe fails to pass quickly out of a double team situation, I don’t think that Woody told him to try to tricky-dribble through a double team… I assume Joe is making a poor decision. I could be wrong. When Josh pulls down a board and rushes past the PG to lead the fast break, I tend to think Woody has likely suggested that he pass the ball and fill the wing as one of the best fast break finishers in the league. (Seriously, there aren’t 3 better guys to finish a fast break, why on earth does Smith insist on being John Stockton?) When Crawford keep throwing up errant jumpers… oops, I’m projecting, never-mind. Anyway, I think it’s tough to compare the Hawks to the Celtics. But there I go again about trying to make fair comparisons. Our front-court is what? 24 years-old on average (or on median, or based on the standard deviation, or co-tangent). I think KG has wrist pads older than that.