Psycho-T brings the pain
Tyler Hansbrough didn't leave anything on the floor after his workout with the Hawks Sunday morning at Philips Arena. The rugged North Carolina forward is a a player to keep an eye on this week with the Hawks drafting 19th in Thursday's NBA draft.
HAWKSVILLE - The reviews were unanimous.
On 10-point scale, Tyler Hansbrough’s Sunday morning workout for the Hawks at Philips Arena ranks at the very top of anything conducted in the past five days.
It wasn’t any one thing in particular that had the Hawks’ coaches buzzing. It was everything. Hansbrough’s energy, effort and obviously better-than-advertised shooting and athleticism caught more than a few folks in attendance by surprise.
“He kicked the meter up. It was off the Richter Scale,” said Hawks assistant coach Larry Drew, who ran the team’s workouts all week. “That was one of those 8.0s, one of those quick, hard earthquakes. Because his energy is at another level. You just don’t see many players capable of playing with that type of energy and effort and can sustain it through a game, or even a workout. He plays at a totally different level than some of these young guys out here.”
I felt like I needed an ice bath after watching his 90-minute workout. But Hansbrough proved a theory that a wise Eastern Conference executive reiterated to me Sunday night, “effort is a skill in the NBA.” And Hansbrough has it in reserve.
Alade Aminu (Stephenson High and Georgia Tech) and Shawn Taggart (Memphis) were the other bigs on hand Sunday. And they were also impressive in the individual drills and two-on-two work that was done. But Hansbrough’s refusal to go at anything but full bore during the entire workout had everyone buzzing afterwards.
Love him or hate him, and Hansbrough laughed about the fact that he’s inspired the masses to do either one or the other and sometimes both, he’s going to do it his way. And the truth is the Hawks could do a lot worse with the 19th pick. But they probably won’t have to worry about Hansbrough there, as I haven’t spoken to anyone anywhere that believes he’ll still be on the board when the Hawks are on the clock Thursday night.
“If this kid is still there at 19, the Hawks better not hesitate,” another Eastern Conference executive told me Sunday afternoon. “The kid’s a dream for coaches in our league, because he’s going to come in and crank things up automatically. He’s just wired differently than most of these other guys.”
That’s the real problem with a pick that late. You can project who you think might be there and evaluate accordingly, but there’s no way of knowing who will be around by then on draft night. One glitch on the draft board in the early lottery can swing the draft in a totally different direction than projected.
The Hawks sent things sideways in 2004 when they took Josh Childress ahead of Luol Deng and Andre Iguodala – defying most mock drafts that had those other two guys going ahead of Childress.
And anytime one player rises and is picked ahead of projection, someone else falls and lands in the lap of an unsuspecting team like the Hawks (who have no doubt done their due diligence throughout this process by examining all the possibilities).
DaJuan Summers is my sleeper pick for the draft. Too bad he didn't get a chance to workout for the Hawks while he was in town last week (a sprained ankle sidelined him).
Check any mock draft you want and go over the list of names where the Hawks are picking and there are either guys you draft on potential (Wake Forest’s Jeff Teague, who acquitted himself well in his workout Saturday, or Ohio State’s BJ Mullens, who did the same a day earlier) or seasoned college guys that will be needle pushers as rookies (guys like Hansbrough, Pitt’s Sam Young, Louisville’s Terrence Williams and Georgetown’s DaJuan Summers, all of whom the Hawks have had face time with throughout the process).
The usual anxiety surrounding the Hawks at draft time doesn’t really seem necessary this year, at least the way I see it. The Hawks’ heavy lifting is going to come in free agency – and that’s where Hansbrough and all the bigger guys on the short list I’ve detailed above come in handy. Follow me now. When the Hawks lost Josh Childress to Greece last summer, they didn’t have a ready replacement for a 6-8 guy with his skills and seasoning, mostly because they didn’t have a draft pick to use on a player of that ilk. Say, for the sake of my theory, that the Hawks are unable to keep all their free agents. Don’t you think another cat with size and versatility might come in handy next season, even if he’s just a situational rotation player as a rookie?
While I didn’t agree with the notion that drafting 6-8 to 6-9 players ever year now matter what would lead a team from 13-win seasons to the playoffs, I can see the wisdom in taking players that fit that mold if you’re in the best-player-available mode on draft night and picking outside of the lottery. It’s just wise to have your roster well-stocked with a couple Trevor Ariza/Mickael Pietrus/Linas Kleiza types. I think the entire league realizes that now after the playoffs.
FROM THE DO YOUR HOMEWORK FILES …
A quick aside from the Hawks-themed portion of the program requires us to look across the pond fro a moment.
Flooding Europe with scouts from every NBA team has finally caught up to the league and to the crop of talent. The Euro harvest is expected to be extremely thin Thursday night.
Jonathan Abrams of the New York Times had a staggering statistic in his story about the sudden change in philosophy regarding drafting European (and really international) prospects:
“Teams appear to be straying from the recent trend of drafting overseas players because many of them have not lived up to expectations. Of the 39 international players selected in the first round since 2002 with no prior experience playing in the United States, only Yao Ming has surfaced as an All-Star. In that same time, 14 of 171 American players drafted in the first round made at least one All-Star team.”
Math was never my best subject in school, but I know crazy numbers when I see them. And that’s craziness.
OTHER LASTING IMPRESSIONS WERE MADE DURING WORKOUT WEEK, including a stellar showing by a guy not getting any first round buzz. Keep LSU combo guard Garrett Temple in mind in the second round. He’s going to make someone a nice player wherever he is drafted (provided he is drafted, and if not, he’ll be a good free agent pick up for some team). I remember watching him shut J.J. Redick down at the Georgia Dome during LSU’s run to the Final Four a few years back. He’s got NBA height for his position but his frame is need of some bulk to stand up the type of pounding he could endure at the pro level. But he’s got every tool you want in a player and he’ll compete with anyone.
Another guy the Hawks had in that made an impression me was Lester Hudson, a 6-3, 200-pound bull from Tennessee-Martin that refused to let anyone slow him down in his workout. He’s the kind of feisty guard that NBA teams love to have coming off their bench to wreak havoc on opposing defenses and to harass opposing point guards. And you talk about a guy breaking down walls to reach his goals, tell me Hudson hasn’t done exactly that after reading this from my man Chris Low from ESPN.com.
Fearless seems like an appropriate description of Lester Hudson's game.
Jonesboro’s Toney Douglas (Florida State) was by far the most tenacious defender in attendance all week. He didn’t miss an opportunity to mix it up in the drills I watched. I can see why folks have been gushing about him as a potential, Ben Gordon-like combo guard. But he’s a defender like Gordon wishes he was (granted, few guards this size on the planet can score from the distance and in the variety of ways Gordon does). Still, whatever team nabs Douglas on draft night will have happy coaches and fans that will appreciate his in-your-face style.
Summers is my sleeper pick for the draft. I got into a heated debate with my man JB “Beans” Beckett Sunday about Summer and Young. After watching some film clips of both, including some of their head-to-head matchup from the season, we agreed that we were both right and that Summer and Young have a chance to contribute as rookies wherever they go. Now if we could just convince someone to let us draft for them Thursday night.
All joking aside, I have no earthly idea what happens Thursday night. Who does?
Too much can swing things on draft night. And we didn’t even get into the all the crazy scenarios that could happen if the Hawks were to find the right package to move the pick (and whatever else necessary) to shore up their depth issues at certain positions.
Nothing is outside of the realm of possibility right now, my friends. Nothing at all.
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803 comments Add your comment
Sekou Smith
June 22nd, 2009
11:22 am
I think the Hawks would be willing to use 19 and Speedy to make a deal O’Brien, but not to move up in the draft. Use them to move out of the draft and get a player. This isn’t the kind of draft I’d be moving up in unless things go haywire on draft night and you think you can get a cat that’s dropping like it’s hot. Otherwise, you move out and snag a real player (Ray went off on this on the last blog, I believe).
I can see why people are hesitant on Toney Douglas Joe, he’s never really played the point and he’s too short to project at shooting guard (dude is right around 6-foot but a ferocious competitor). Teams are going to be cautious about a guy they think might be a tweener at that spot with so many PG-types in the draft.
And lay off Larry Drew my man Tribe. He’s always runs the Hawks’ workouts and he always tells it like it is. He doesn’t sugar coat anything for anybody.
Melvin
June 22nd, 2009
11:25 am
Astro,
How is playing T.Williams (6′6) along side JJ and Bibby is any different than playing Flip(6′2) and Evans (6′5)? Especially, if he can create his own shot….
coachx
June 22nd, 2009
11:30 am
Just for the record, Hansbrough measured 6′9.5” for the official the predraft measurement. That is legit PF size. His verticle was measured at 34” which is pretty darn good for a dude who’s is a hair under 6′10”.
I agree on the David Anderson sentiments as well. He would help us a ton.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 22nd, 2009
11:32 am
My bad Sekou. I love Larry Drew, but I’d love to see what these other coaches have to say about the UNC players. I think out of all schools, UNC is the one that will get the most favorable reviews for its players at workouts just because it’s UNC.
And I stand by what i said: do not let that stiff Hansbrough in here. Get the best possible point guard, resign ZaZa, and sign another big or the superstar Solomon Jones
Hawksfanatic
June 22nd, 2009
11:33 am
All this talk of comparing Hansbrough and Shelden has me thinking, Sekou has there been even the slightest discussion of bringing Shelden back on our team? The T-Wolves declined his option and is now an unrestricted free agent. Yea he is a bust for a Top 5 pick, but he can still be a rotational player. He also knows the “system” (if you can even call it that), about the only downside would be if there were people in the organization that didn’t like him (either Woodson or just players in general).
coachx
June 22nd, 2009
11:38 am
Enter your comments here
O'Brien
June 22nd, 2009
11:39 am
Thanks Sekou.
Although I have no idea what deals may be available, I would love to see the Hawks make a deal, because we know Speedy is not going to get any PT here, and in these economic times, his expiring contract should be valuable. If he is healthy, he can still play (situational) defense, and if he’s hurt, his insurance might cover the majority of his salary.
With the new mock draft on nbadraft.net, the Hawks taking Jrue Holliday, what do you guys think of his game?
Melvin
June 22nd, 2009
11:39 am
It wouldn’t surprise me if the Hawks trade out of the 1st round. Hopefully, we can get good value in return.
Reggie
June 22nd, 2009
11:44 am
Sekou
How would Jeff Teague fit with the hawks?
Astro Joe
June 22nd, 2009
11:48 am
Melvin, not much different. What would be different is that most point forwards are guys who need to play 30+ minutes and get into the flow of the game. I’m thinking about guys like Diaw, Billy Owens, Kukoc, Pippen, Hedu… all of those guys were/are more effective when they are in the center of things. I think it would be hard to project Williams as being able to play 30+ minutes as a SF with a small PF playing next to him. The small line-up that you mentioned is rarely on the floor for more than a short spurt. Can Williams be the lead distributor for the second unit? Sounds good in theory, I just don’t know if it would happen in reality.
Sekou, I hear you. But just call him a guard and let him defend the PG position (better than most) and bury open jumpers (better than most). How can that be a bad thing?
newkid
June 22nd, 2009
11:57 am
If Sund and Woody continue to be stuck on the ‘retro Detroit’ formula, could Ellington be to the Hawks what Rip Hamilton was (is) to the Pistons? Hawks don’t currently have a player on the roster who can duplicate Rip’s offensive role in Detroit. Roy Williams effectively used Ellington in a similar fashion at Carolina. Players of that ilk need not be terribly athletic (e.g., Ray Allen), but must be dead-eye shooters coming off screens, and willing to run all day. Moving JJ down to the 3-spot when Ellington is on the court could give opposing teams a difficult look to defend in 3-5 minute spurts.
Daniel
June 22nd, 2009
12:16 pm
Sekou-
what are you thoughts on what they might get for the 19th pick and Claxton?
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
12:19 pm
Newkid,
No. We don’t set nearly enough screens even for Joe or Bibby. Ellington wouldn’t have a chance at Rip Hamilton-like status. You can count on one hand how many guys on this team consistently set solid screens. And you’ll only really need two fingers….
Astro Joe,
I certainly understand the “fire in the belly” sentiment. Only, it doesn’t seem to have much value here in Hawksville. Mario arguably has the most fire, but how much burn does he get for his efforts? Exactly. Guess “skills” might have something to do with that. The last guy with that much fire was Chills, and we still miss him. I don’t think he’ll be back in a Hawks uni, either. Dammit, how do you lose an asset like that? Only Sund knows. Josh usually has that fire, but he loses it sometimes. I won’t go into why I think that is. Horford usually has it. The guys who have the least amount of fire are the ones who have the ball the most…except Marvin, who can’t seem to muster a single stinking spark some days.
We can complain about energy until we’re blue in the face. But let’s be honest: it’s not that highly valued.
Sekou,
Yes, I did go off on that subject. I STILL think the Hawks should trade the pick for a proven rotational contributor. Unfortunately, any such suggestions usually result in an attack by the bean counters. Ah, life in the blog…
A Tribe Called Quest
June 22nd, 2009
12:22 pm
We don’t need another 6″9 SF. OMG are you people freaking serious about all this?
We need a point guard and a freaking 7 foot center. Where the heck does getting a 6″8 shooter fit in our formula? We have 7 players on this team who can play SF
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
12:31 pm
The Truth,
DraftExpress has Hansbrough at 6′8.25″ without shoes, 6′9.5″ with shoes. His wingspan is 6′11.5″ and his standing reach is 8′11″. He checks in at 234.
Al Horford is exactly .25″ taller with shoes, has a wingspan exactly 1″ longer, and has the same standing reach, while weighing 12 more pounds. And he plays center in the NBA.
Hansbrough could use some bulking up, but he can play some PF in the NBA. I doubt anybody expects him to be a starter, but very likely a rotational player and fixture on some team. If he’s lacking in size, then somebody better send a memo to guys like Udonis Haslem, Drew Gooden, etc. So many PFs in the league came in with very similar measurements, some within a half inch or 2 pounds in either direction (higher or lower). Sheldon should have been a solid PF. The problem was from the neck-up. I don’t think Hansbrough has that issue AT ALL.
Again, I have no issue with the pick, provided that we’re not leaving a player on the board who can help us more.
newkid
June 22nd, 2009
12:32 pm
Ray, you’re assuming that because we don’t, we won’t. Not sure that’s an accurate assumption; not sure Washington and Detroit had Rip-like motion in their offenses prior to Hamilton’s arrival; not sure Boston had a profusion of screens in their offense geared to free a designated shooter just prior to Allen’s arrival (although that was a big part of there offense for decades). Future success will come more forthrightly to those who look ahead, as opposed to those who look at what exists today or existed yesterday and assume tomorrow will be nothing more than a replication. I know, I know, we’re talking about Woody here.
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
12:36 pm
Quest,
We’re not talking about picking in the lottery anymore, so it’s not as big of a deal. On the flip side, I am definitely hearing you on the pg thing. However, I’d rather have a proven young vet from the league (Jack or Sessions, or even the older Hinrich) than the 6 or 7th best pg in the draft (you know, the “leftovers”), who may try in vain to break his way into the playing rotation.
Besides all that, what 7-foot center that’s still available at #19 are you wanting? Hey, if all you want is a 7-footer, we can go back in time and get Priest Lauderdale. Or, we can scour the hills and valleys of Europe and recruit the tallest goat farmer we can find. Or we can pry Luke Schenser away from some fortunate team. Hey, is he still in the league?
kwooden1
June 22nd, 2009
12:40 pm
In terms of the draft if the http://www.nbadraft.net’s latest version holds true, I would draft Lawson before any of the guys above him. There wasn’t a guy in college that could stay in front of him. (he add 21 against Douglas) He can correct his shot and work on his range, but with his quickness he would be a steal at 19.
We actually have a lot of shooters right now, so I would again go over Lawson over Ellington. But if a big like Tyler H. or Mullens is available you have to go with them. I don’t think we’re going to get to much for Speedy’s contract or be able to work enough of our MLE to get a Big in free agency. (have to draft one!)
O'Brien
June 22nd, 2009
1:02 pm
And this is where Woody comes in. Does anyone feel confident that Woody can develop plays to maximize the skills of his players? If we get Ellington, screens would be good for him. But we hardly run any for JJ and Bibby as it is.
Rather than change his scheme to fit his players, Woody demands that his players fit into his system. Which wouldnt be so bad if he actually had some kind of system (iso JJ is not a system. JJ pound the ball then pass to Josh right inside the 3 point line with 4 seconds on the shot clock is not a system).
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
1:05 pm
Newkid,
Your last sentence pretty much nullified the entirety of the preceeding paragraph, LOL! Yeah, I get your point, and unlike some here, I will not suggest that you didn’t watch Hawks games. I agree that those who are looking ahead can make the necessary adjustments. We won’t go there. As I said, it seems that we don’t do enough for the shooters we DO have, much less any incoming ones.
A good coach has to get over what he has. A shooter/scorer is a shooter/scorer. You can either spend your time pissing and moaning about how he doesn’t play excellent defense, or doesn’t handle the ball well enough to run the point, or he wasn’t the guy you wanted in the draft, or whatever. You have to GET THE “F” OVER THAT, and find a way to exploit/maximize what he DOES give you.
That is what frustrates me about Bibby the most. He no longer has the speed and jab-step that he did before, that allowed him to create for himself. To best utilize him, we should have been throwing multiple screens to set him free. Dude only needs a half second, and that sweet stroke will straight up kill teams. But we just couldn’t seem to do it. Meanwhile, Joe is able to successfully play “keep away” against up to three defenders at a time (as long as he’s not caught along the baseline or sideline), so we practically set NO screens for him.
What in the hell are we going to do with a pure shooter like Ellington? Hey, I’m not hating on the player, or picking him. But you don’t pick a guy like that, expecting him to turn into a creator like Joe, or expecting him to shoot (accurately) over two defenders, 28 feet from the basket.
I won’t even blame it all on the coach. One of my obviously favorite players is also arguably the worst offender. That’s right, Josh Smith. His idea of running the pick and roll is to PRETEND like he’s going to set a screen, then slip it and flash towards the basket, leaving his teammate with two defenders who knew a screen wasn’t coming anyway. To make matters worse, he all too often doesn’t get the ball ANYWAY (but they’ll damn sure heave it to him when he’s hanging around the arc, won’t they).
So in conclusion, I counter your very accurate and valid comment with a question. If Woody (and his players) can’t run a solid screen for his two favorite players in the whole wide world (Joe and Bibby), then what rookie would rate such treatment, or even influence what HASN’T been done in the past 5 years?
If there’s not a major Sund hammer involved, I just don’t see it…
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
1:08 pm
O’brien,
You know, I think maybe if I hadn’t stopped for a restroom break, I MIGHT have beaten you to that post, LOL!!!
I agree completely, though my not-so-pent up frustration obviously got the better of me (hence the fact that I used a lot more verbage to get the point across).
Ramon
June 22nd, 2009
1:10 pm
The more I think about the draft, the more I like the idea of adding someone like Ellington above everyone else expected to be at the 19th spot. One thing I’m liking is the idea of when JJ or Marvin going out, still having someone come in off the bench who can still spread the defense. If the Hawks ever gets serious about allowing parts of the offense to run through Horford and Smoove on the blocks (which has proven to be the best offensive strategy thus far), then it will take the most shooters possible to be on the court at the same time to make defenses stay honest. The thing I liked about Ellington is he didn’t need the ball in hand to do his damage. And for all the good that Flip does, he’s not affective when he’s not creating for himself. I do think with a 6th man like Ellington, JJ would be able to rest longer.
I also will say that with the addition of Ellington, I would be willing to pay Chills more than Marvin. For the simple fact of remembering how valuable Chills always was when injuries came to the back court. Or if the team wants someone else on the bench I will bring up the name of Mike Miller again, and still stand behind the idea that his shooting off the bench would be wonderful.
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
1:10 pm
Kwooden1,
If going for a pg in the draft, I agree on Lawson. I don’t know about Holliday. He could be VERY good, but is he polished enough to even get PT here? Methinks not, unless he shows he can 1) defend his position, and 2) Hit the open shot from just about anywhere. And not necessarily in that order.
Still rooting for the acquisition of a young vet at pg, particularly as long as Woody is here.
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
1:13 pm
Ramon,
Good point. Now here’s a question for you. What about Thomas Gardner? That kid is NOT afraid to throw it up, and can score. He scored like a madman in the D-league, and hit some shots in actual NBA games where he was given adequate opportunity to shoot. Ellington has not taken one shot in either situation, as of yet. Is he better? Does he give us something that Garnder does not? Just asking.
jhan
June 22nd, 2009
1:14 pm
It’s very hard to decide who they should pick because I don’t know what their long term plans are for: Bibby, Flip, ZaZa, Chills, Law & Marvin.
If I knew those plans then I could create an effective draft strategy. I will never know those plans so I won’t waste my time.
I do believe that after seeing who they select I can make an educated guess on what their plans are for the UFA’s & RFA’s.
I can say that any of the UNC guys would work for me. I wouldn’t draft any centers in the first round except Mullens – I don’t even like him that much but we REALLY need size on this team so I’d take a flyer.
HawkKingBibby
June 22nd, 2009
1:18 pm
Enter your comments here
HawkKingBibby
June 22nd, 2009
1:20 pm
Isnt that all out intensity and fire exactly what Shelden Williams was ” supposed ” to bring to the Hawks?
O'Brien
June 22nd, 2009
1:26 pm
Ray
Great minds think alike LOL. I am also on the “get a young PG (Jack, Sessions or Hinrich) bandwagon”.
I agree about Thomas Gardner. Wasnt it the Cleveland game in the playoffs when we were getting blown out, and they brought Acie and Gardener in. And the Hawks subsequently went on a big run. I remember Hubie Brown saying the Cavs thought they would have to put starters back in the game. Acie was driving and dishing, Gardener was knocking down 3’s.
Astro Joe
June 22nd, 2009
1:36 pm
jhan, I agree completely with your 1:14 post.
newkid, I’ve never watched Ellington play. Is he as willing to defend as Rip? Because while Rip haws physical limitations, he certainly has the right defensive attitude.
Ray, the combination of basketball skills AND being “fiercely competitive” is what I meant. Finding a guy willing to go thru walls to earn a NBA paycheck is not that hard. Finding one with demonstrated basketball skills from a big-time conference (and is fearless), that’s another thing.
Bottom line, Douglas may be one of the few two-way players available at #19. A guy who can immediately contribute at both ends of the floor.
SWAT Native
June 22nd, 2009
1:36 pm
I sometimes think that the Hawks draft the same player over and over – the undersized PF that plays below the rim, good kid from a good school, good program: Adam Keefe, Alan Henderson, Sheldon Williams, and now we’re talking about Tyler Hansbrough.
What’s funny to me though, with all of the Tarheel love, so many people want to label Marvin Williams a bust and trade him after starting for several years, but think that the current crop of NC players that are maybe a year younger than Marvin are the answers to all the Hawks’ problems.
Astro Joe
June 22nd, 2009
1:44 pm
Every player who makes an NBA roster has some qualities that allow him to earn a paycheck. And those qualities may appear in a real game. But I kind of doubt that cats like Jeremy Richardson and Thomas Gardner are as consistent ro possess the same basketball-IQ as Wayne Ellington. I know that there have been examples of all 30 teams being wrong about a player (like Arenas or Redd) but I’ll always put my money on a cat like Ellington who is projected as a first rounder vs. the Jeremy Richardsons and Thomas Gardners of the world.
Rufus1
June 22nd, 2009
1:54 pm
Sekou
I would like Josh Heytvelt. He is 6′11 260lb, can shoot the 3 at 40%, a good shot blocker, a good athlete and is a good rebounder. I would prefer Hansbrough, But Heyvelt is NBA ready.
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
2:05 pm
So DraftExpress has us taking Teague, and NBADraft.net has us taking Ellington. I wonder which will prove to be more on target, or will both be way off?
Daniel
June 22nd, 2009
2:20 pm
I am not sure about Hansbrough as a Hawk, but I am sure that he is NOT Shelden Williams.
MannyT
June 22nd, 2009
2:34 pm
You draft wizards confuse me.
Seems like this draft is not as strong at the top, but has lots of guys that are ok. Consequently the late first round seems to be the hot spot. You get a player almost as good for a lot less money. So why all the trade up ideas. Let’s just take the best player available.
The ideas is that this player will hopefully contribute, but definitely not be a starter. I do not object to PsychoT, or Toney Douglas, or most of the guys you speak of as bench players. As long as we keep some basic thoughts about fit in mind.
If we get a center–his primary skills should be a defensive, lane clogging, sometimes flagrant foul earning nasty dude that can rebound.
If we get a PG–he should be able to apply defensive on ball pressure to make up for the lack of a lane clogging center.
If we get a wing player–he should be able to physically stand up to the type of SF you see in the east like LeBron, Hedu, & Pierce…kinda built like Marvin.
Side note, if we can get a shooter, it helps. I don’t care what position he plays. See Orlando for proof of that concept. I just hope we can find one that has an additional skill.
We get 2 shots at the draft, so I’m not overly worried. Just make sure Sund & Woody are on the same page so the guy gets a chance to play.
BWAF
Sautee
June 22nd, 2009
2:40 pm
Newkid,
about this: “Future success will come more forthrightly to those who look ahead, as opposed to those who look at what exists today or existed yesterday and assume tomorrow will be nothing more than a replication.”
You said a mouthful, bud. Wow.
If ONLY the BASG worked under that premise.
Astro Joe
June 22nd, 2009
2:40 pm
Chad Ford now has us taking Teague in 1st round and Marcus Thornton in 2nd round. And he has us choosing Teague over Maynor.
I really hope Sund does not select a scoring PG. We need a shooting PG, which is different from a scoring PG. Opposing teams can’t double Joe, Josh or Al with their PG if our PG is a tremendous shooter. But if our PG has to dribble in the lane and try to score over a big (or two), well, the opposing team will double our hot scorer all game long.
2009 NBA Draft - Page 55 - Operation Sports Forums
June 22nd, 2009
2:42 pm
[...] old man was.. Not by a long shot. An another note.. Hansbrough had a good workout with the Hawks. Sekou Smith, AJC: “The reviews were unanimous. On 10-point scale, Tyler Hansbrough’s Sunday morning workout for the [...]
Ramon
June 22nd, 2009
2:42 pm
Big Ray, the thing I think that Ellington brings that Gardner doesn’t is the caliber that he was coached. I mean even spending this long in the league, chances are Ellington has probably still been coached better than Gardner has to this day. And that is before he starts working with Mark Price or whatever shooting coach. The way he carry himself is also something that Gardner doesn’t bring. He continues with the expectations of winning that Horford brought along. And the difference between him and Marvin, is that he was actually one of the leaders on his team, unlike Williams. I just look at him, and at worst see a poor man’s Dale Ellis.
Nookah
June 22nd, 2009
2:45 pm
Big Ray, I have enjoyed all your posts and your very inciteful comments. I am a little terrified to be honest when I think of the track record of the Hawks Scouting crew and as if we needed it we are hit with the double whammy of having Ric Sund who has a less than stellar track record of drafting good players. Then you combine that with Woody’s penchant for sitting rookies and not developing them. I am indeed very very petrified as a Hawks’ fan and keep asking myself the question, how will we handle draft day? I await Thursday with bated breath and I must be honest, I am not optimisitc.
I tend to agree with you however, it may be best we get a proven young PG such as Jack or Sessions, but we still have issues and I am not sure they will be addressed with this current management and HC in place. I see franchises like the Bulls, the Heat and the Bobcats getting better. I am a little worried thet we will take a few steps back this year. I am really hoping and praying my thoughts are way off.
BIg Ray, Sekou, anyone, please allay my fears if anyone can.
Go Hawks!!!
Nuff respect everytime!!!!
A Tribe Called Quest
June 22nd, 2009
2:46 pm
We might as well trade away all picks this year. After 5 years of turmoil with Billy Knight’s egregious drafting mistakes, I don’t feel like getting a Robert Swift or Sene with the 19th overall pick. Trade this pick with the skinny lard Speedy Claxton and get some more role players in here
2009 NBA Draft - Page 56 - Operation Sports Forums
June 22nd, 2009
2:47 pm
[...] old man was.. Not by a long shot. An another note.. Hansbrough had a good workout with the Hawks. Sekou Smith, AJC: “The reviews were unanimous. On 10-point scale, Tyler Hansbrough’s Sunday morning workout for the [...]
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
2:49 pm
O’brien,
I remember that game quite well. It showed me something. To so many others, it was merely “garbage time.”
Astro Joe,
I agree with a lot of what you said in your 1:36 post. Rip was a willing part/member of a team defense concept. Wish we had more willing parts, and that might help the defensive concept. As for Douglas, you are right, I think. I knew what you meant by the combination of skill and the desire and/or fearlessness. My point was that there does not seem to be a premium on that in Atlanta. I wasn’t talking as much about the front office as I was about the guys who wear the jerseys, though I did mention Mario (lack of skills) and Josh (lack of fundamentals and focus) as deviations, and the unique flaws that they have.
No, that problem exists on the roster, and it’s not something Woody or any other coach can make his players be, though he can inspire and encourage it to a degree. I doubt that the issue is his own lack of intensity or drive.
As for Ellington vs. Gardner, that’s what most teams are going to do: value a draft prospect like Ellington over a young free agent pickup like Gardner. I wouldn’t know the percentages, but I’m betting that the first round picks turn out better than the FA pickups, more often than not. My point of comparing those two is whether or not the coaching staff sees more in a guy like Ellington as a draft pick, than they do in a guy who has spent a year in their system. Ellington certainly came from a better and more famous program than Gardner did, and has more hype. But whether or not he does more on the floor for this team is another story.
I wouldn’t bet against him, but I wouldn’t bet the farm ON him. Of course, that’s the beauty of the #19 pick. You’re not betting the farm….
Jhan,
Agreed on many fronts. Nevertheless, it’s not as simple as all that. The front office can plan to do whatever they wish, but that does not mean their plans come to fruition. Sund said he planned on keeping Childress. Billy planned on netting us Sam Cassell. Neither happened, as we don’t have Chill, and we ended up paying Speedy for nothing.
Sund might say “best player available” but we all know that’s a very vanilla statement. “Best player that can help us” is more specific. Or perhaps, “best player to have if our free agent Plan A, Plan B, or even Plan C doesn’t work out” is possibly even more specific. Of course, I have no idea if they’re thinking like that, but I figure it’s worth considering.
No, you don’t ideally want to address your rotation issues via the draft (sometimes not even in the lottery), but maybe it suffices as Plan D or Plan E.
cp
June 22nd, 2009
2:50 pm
lol ray I see you are on fire today..
Someone tell me if Ellington can create off the dribble and defend. If not then we should pass on him. Like it has been stated, we don’t run guys off of screens here and that is what he needs. I don’t want another perimeter player who cant defend. We have enough of those as it is. That’s why guys were getting in foul trouble because they had to come over and try to defend a guy who had a opening to the lane. Another thing is last year what hurt us is that guys started settling for jumpers way too often instead of driving. So if Ellington cant create off the dribble or defend pass on the kid. If T Will or Teague is there take either one. T Will has the length and strength to guard bigger guys, has a good handle, good passer, and rebounds well for his position. Meeks, Hudson, Douglas, Danny Green, or Tyrese Rice would be a nice pick up in the second round. I would not have a problem with either guy. Sam Young and Derrick Brown are my sleepers in this draft.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 22nd, 2009
2:53 pm
Sheldy made way too much in his 3 seasons so far, so if we could sign him for Randolph Morris money, I’d do it. I’m sure he wants to be close to his expecting wife Candace in Cali though. Shelden, while being a true stiff, still averaged about 10 & 5 over 30 mpg (rough estimate based on minutes he played) and is probably better than Solomon Jones
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
3:11 pm
Ramon,
That was very well-stated, and makes me feel better about Ellington all the way around.
Nookah,
Fear not. This is Sund’s first rodeo with the Hawks as far as the draft goes. Let’s see what happens first, and then be scared later if he screws the pooch.
Mike is back
June 22nd, 2009
3:15 pm
Big Ray, loved yo comment about coaching…that was funny as He11.lol
To answer your question:
If Woody (and his players) can’t run a solid screen for his two favorite players in the whole wide world (Joe and Bibby), then what rookie would rate such treatment, or even influence what HASN’T been done in the past 5 years?
AL did…his game was so strong…Woody had to make room for him in his rotation. Ellington has the talent to do the same. I think one of biggest problem with screens for the Hawks is lack of imagination on offense. When 90% of your plays are design for two players…guys are not going to be that motivated to set screens.
In this weak draft…Ellington would be a safe pick. The Hawks made it to the second round in the playoff…maybe that changes Chill or Anderson’s mind…u never know. This Hansbrough story is starting to eerily sound like Sheldon…the players are different…but the story line is the same…Jerry Sloan system is better suited for Hansbrough. He would languish in Woody’s system to say the lease. You get instant energy in Solo…but Woody seldom uses him. Once Hansbrough gets dunked on ala RandMo…look out DNPs…Here he comes.
Siler names has been mentioned in some draft discussions. In keeping with Sekou theme about trading out…instead of moving up…that sounds like a recipe for success. Trade down to get a guy like Siler and pick-up an extra pick. You should easily be able to get a PG in the second round.
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
3:24 pm
Quest,
Give Solomon 30 mpg and I guarantee you he will impress you more than Sheldon. Not only that, but Candace might have re-thought that fateful night when ol’ Shellhead came around with the ring….(yeah, I know, that was wrong as hell)…LOL….
CP,
Yeah, I’m in one of my moods, lol. Tell you what. I was talking to Sautee on the phone a few minutes ago, and he brought up a really good point. Wayne Ellington’s role did not involve him creating his own shot, or going after it off the dribble. That was Lawson’s role. So does Ellington have the ability to do it? It’s possible that he is like many draft prospects that play on great teams, where roles are well-defined and disciplined, where the coach knows how to use the players to have the best chance at winning it all….in other words, he may have the ability, and we just don’t know it. Or, he may have the ability to develop that part of his game. One thing is known for sure- he was well-coached.
I.MUS WRITE- INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY
June 22nd, 2009
3:27 pm
My gawd…… Stop with this Tyler Hansborough garbage. First Sekou cant report anything that he’s seen now he wants us to sip his tainted kool-aid and believe Psycho T is a beast. Then there’s others who want to debate hieght and standing reach…STOP THIS BS…….. Why draft this guy -another dam PF when there are tons of capeable Pg’s in this draft……. Billy Knight mus be sumwhere smiling………
Seriously tho is Tyler H gonna be anything close to Matt Harpring-probably not ……… He has hearty,,he’s a hard worker, he’s this he’s that….Who the hell cares -if we draft him its gonna be a mistake. when and where will he get time at the 3 at the 4 at C…….
Big Ray
June 22nd, 2009
3:29 pm
Mike,
Thanks! I aim to please, even if it’s myself that I’m pleasing sometimes, LOL!
A pg in the second round? Don’t know how good of an idea that is, considering it will be like the 46th pick or something. I don’t know, your guess is as good as mine.
On Ellington: I like the guy. It would be nice if his game is as strong, and fits as well as Horford’s did. But then, we were in dire need at the position, which helped Horford get on the practice floor. With old hands like JJ, possibly Bibby, possibly Flip, and Marvin…does Ellington have the same chance?
Not arguing, just asking. Not taking away from Horford at all, as I LOVE his game, but he didn’t have much to overcome on this roster. Zaza was the best we had. Here’s to hoping for similar success (but not similar misuse) as Horford had, for Ellington if we get him.