Who's it going to be Hawks?

Ric Roc

June 17th, 2009
9:53 am

What’s frustrating is that a team like the Cavs is making a real push to win today by attempting to add Shaq, while we are placing our hopes in draft picks…we don’t even know if we’ll bring our own guys back…

Kevin

June 17th, 2009
9:55 am

Draft Maynor!

Steve

June 17th, 2009
9:57 am

Sekou – I had a chat with a buddy of mine last night, and I said I’d deal JJ and our 1st round pick for a shot at Thabeet. He said I was nuts (mostly because he thinks Thabeet is uncoordinated and wasn’t that good at Uconn). That said, I think the opportunity to score a long big doesn’t come around often, so I’d take the chance – not sure if any team in the top 5 would be willing to deal though.

Whatcha think?

Steve

June 17th, 2009
9:58 am

Ric Roc –

You know what else? I was thinking the other day – I would argue that nearly all of the playoff teams (minus the bottom 4 in the east) had 3 players (per team) better than the Hawks 2nd best player. When is the organization going to bring some big talent to Atlanta and try and beat the best?

Melvin

June 17th, 2009
10:04 am

Steve,
I agree with your friend. I watch Thabeet many times and he’s not impressive at all.

I think Dejuan Summers will be the sleeper of this draft. 6-8/9 guy that can play on the wing and the post. He would be a good backup to Marvin off the bench. However, taking him at #19 may be a reach considering many draft experts/guru’s have him going near the bottom of the 1st rnd or early 2nd…

UGA

June 17th, 2009
10:05 am

What IF:

Phoenix would send us Amare Stoudimire straight up for Josh Smith, (don’t know if I would agree or not as a Hawk)- would you do it??

Daniel

June 17th, 2009
10:05 am

Steve-
Thabeet is not worth that move.
I am interested in where Toney Douglas may go. Any chance he drops into the second round. He is a reach at 19 but a STEAL at 49. I would love to have a guy like that on this team.

Daniel

June 17th, 2009
10:07 am

UGA- I would not touch that move with a 10 foot pole. Why would you want an older, more injured, equally malcontented player for Josh? The only reasonable move I can see with Josh would be Bosh, and that would only work if Bosh were willing to resign here.

jhan

June 17th, 2009
10:09 am

Ric Roc – should the Hawks just ignore the players in the draft? Isn’t the draft where you fill in your roster with good but inexpensive players? How about guys that are starters in this league that were drafted in the lower 1st round & 2nd round? Don’t you want the Hawks to thoroughly evaluate every option available to make this team better?

UGA

June 17th, 2009
10:09 am

I still say keep everyone (Bibby, Flip, ZaZa and Marvin. Sign a scoring PF (Charlie V/McDyess/Drew Gooden) and a backup PG (Sessions/Felton/Jack/CJ Watson).

UGA

June 17th, 2009
10:14 am

I agree with Bosh, I’m not too sure about Amare.

mountain_jim

June 17th, 2009
10:27 am

How much input will Sund allow Woody into these selections I wonder? And I still want to know who had to have Shellhead at 5 – Woody or Billy?

Hoops

June 17th, 2009
10:39 am

There is no way I would trade Josh for Thabeet! I would not trade him for Griffin. If we trade Josh, it must be big! Bosh, yes! M. Gasol and their #2 pick for Josh, yes! We need a 5 and a PG. I think we can sign Sessions for the PG. If we trade Josh, we must get a starting 5 out of it!!!

clint

June 17th, 2009
10:42 am

without a point guard signed (sorry acie law is not a pg, much like salim wasnt) ty lawson is the pick, let him slip and slide all the way down to 19 just like he slided all the way to the national championship. Speed is what we need at the point and he should start after a full season or two.

Ced

June 17th, 2009
10:49 am

The Hawks should not make ANY irrational trades to move up in this draft. There just isn’t anyone available this year that warrants us trading our best guys to move up. Now a trade for future picks or a trade for young pieces, that can play, and already in the league wouldn’t be a bad move. We better not trade Josh though. He did a great job in the playoffs, he had his bad moments but they were no worse than Joe’s or Al’s, and showed he can get even better. Josh deserves more loyalty and more patience. I hate hearing that we are in discussions about trading our most DYNAMIC player because he had a couple of bad moments in a horrible series for his team, a series in which he was the most productive throughout

O'brien

June 17th, 2009
10:50 am

Sekou,

You have said that Hawksville is split on Acie. if they draft a PG with the 19th pick, does that mean that Acie is out of here, or is it possible thay they will keep both of them, and possibly end up with 4 PG’s (Starter, Flip, Acie, 19th pick)?

glw

June 17th, 2009
10:51 am

UGA,

Its a tough call, Bosh is more adept offensively than Josh, but not sure about the defense, and would have to be pretty sure I could resign him long term.

Amare, I think is a better fit when you think of the offense in the context of Joe and or Bibby, having Amare who is a beast on the inside, would make our shooters more effective.

Honestly, I would just prefer to keep Josh, I would like to have Bosh or Stoudamire to go with him, and would prefer moving Big AL instead.

smartguy

June 17th, 2009
10:52 am

Steve, I said that same thing a few weeks ago. I am in complete agreement with you. Even if its not Thabeet, I would still trade Joe, and of course I would fire Woody.

Hawks73

June 17th, 2009
10:53 am

I agree that the Hawks should make every attempt at keeping Bibby, Flip, ZaZa, & even Marvin. They should strongly consider what they could get for JJ, and if it’s enough return value make a deal. Marvin is a lesser version of JJ but could fill that role in time. The ownership group has proven to be very cheap with the salary cap, so don’t expect too much in the way of free agent signings.

bigdave

June 17th, 2009
10:53 am

Sautee….

maybe statistically… but post skill?

Sautee

June 17th, 2009
10:53 am

I posted this on the old blog before I knew we had switched over, so I beg your pardon for the redundancy.

big dave,

about this: “however, i do look at Al and his skill relative to other bigs who were highly touted coming out of college; Emeka, Bogut, Lamarcus… all showed growth, progression, maturation in their game year to year (1st to 2nd even)… like i said, its as if his offensive game has regressed”

OK, I’ll give you Aldridge, but Okafor and Bogut?

Okafor’s scoring went DOWN in his second year, back up the next, and has gone DOWN since. And I’d guess he’s the third option on offense.

Bogut after 4 years is averaging 11.9 and 8.7 and he’s either the second or third option on offense. (Second while Redd was hurt) Horford’s looking pretty comparable at 10.8 and 9.5

Al is at best the 5th option (and with the minutes Flip played, he’s more like the 6th option) and yet in his second season he RAISED his scoring average with FEWER fga / gm than the year before. He also cut his turnovers and raised his assists, AND his FG %. That’s offensive progression, even if we’d all like more.

I was like you and expected a bigger bump from his offense. But you CANNOT deny that he had fewer chances with the ball than all of the players you compared him to.

Now, we can go round and round as to WHY he’s the 5th or 6th option, but it’s undeniable that he had fewer chances.

Khao$

June 17th, 2009
11:05 am

Honestly, it’s hard for me to get hyped about the draft #1 because of where we are picking and #2 Sund history with drafts may be worse than Billy Knight’s. I still don’t trust Rick Sund.

Sautee

June 17th, 2009
11:21 am

big dave,

Post skill…. is that something the best bloggers aspire to?

Yeah, I KNOW what you are saying, but look at where they all came from.

At Texas LA was “the man”

At UConn, Okafor was the second option after Ben Gordon. Bogut was 1st option at Utah.

On the other hand, Horford played on a team that had 5 double figure scorers in the starting lineup. He was asked to do just what he does here. Rebound, play good D and post up on occasion. I still say force feed him the ball and he will blossom. Yes, he looks wooden at times. So how does he acquire some fluidity? Not by ignoring him, that’s for sure.

Also, as I posted to Astro Joe last week, Horford could get us some easy points if we took advantage of his hustling down court. And that wouldn’t take a big bump in post skill, just an attitude change to push the ball.

HawkKingBibby

June 17th, 2009
11:49 am

DERRICK BROWN DERRICK BROWN DERRICK BROWN

darrell starks

June 17th, 2009
12:18 pm

Trade the pick im tired of being call the youngest team in the nba no more excuse.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

June 17th, 2009
12:23 pm

The 19th pick horford and marvin for bosh.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
1:45 pm

I’m thinking it was Woody who wanted Shellhead, not BK. Billy likes long and athletic guys. (Chills,Smith,Diaw,etc.) Just doesn’t seem like a pick he would make. And I hope Mullens doesn’t come in here and light it up playing against HIS SELF like Marvin Williams did. Nique will probably wet his pants again. How can you evaluate a player in non game situations? No to BJ Mullens! Nigue and Woody, stay out of the war room. PLEASE! I’d rather take my chances with Sund’s no drafting azz.

richbrave

June 17th, 2009
2:10 pm

doc:

Have you read BRADLEY’s column on CARON BUTLER to the WIZ for MARVIN WILLIAMS?

mountain_jim

June 17th, 2009
2:32 pm

Terrell I agree that BK probably let Woody have his way on Shellhead – BK’s worst ever pick imho… probably one of the reasons he wanted Woody fired several times.

doc

June 17th, 2009
2:32 pm

rich, no i havent but that would be fine with me, do you want marvin?

Dennis

June 17th, 2009
2:38 pm

I’d be happy with any of the UNC guys. They just know how to play basketball over there. Roy Williams runs a very NBA-like conditioning program because they play smart run and gun basketball (the secondary break) so you know they’ll be NBA-ready bodies. Ellington has the tools to be one of the better shooters in the NBA. Lawson has developed his shooting every year in college and Hansbrough has developed a nice mid-range jumper as well. Lawson is one of the best at taking care of the ball and his compact body is great around the rim, which is really impressive in their kind of offense. Ellington has great catch and shooting ability but he has a nice handle too which tells me he could develop a shot off the dribble too. And he’s sneaky athletic. So is Hansbrough, who is renowned for his workout discipline. You can’t go wrong with any three of these guys. Danny Green would a great pick in the 2nd round also. He has great range and could be an elite defender.

Dennis

June 17th, 2009
2:46 pm

Alade Aminu would be a very Billy Knight type of pick. I’d stay away from anyone that’s been around Paul Hewitt for that long. Luckily for Thad Young and Bosh, they got away early.

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
2:58 pm

Just heard another Josh Smith rumor for the millionth time. lol!! Smith and Acie Law to GS for Monte Ellis and Brandon Wright. Thoughts?

Sautee

June 17th, 2009
3:18 pm

tb,

If we’re shipping Josh to GS I want Biedrens. Period.

richbrave

June 17th, 2009
3:24 pm

doc:

Only under the circumstancers I outlined earlier.

Melvin

June 17th, 2009
3:26 pm

Terrell,

Considering the Hawks resign Bibby and Flip and you know Joe is going to play a ton of mins in the backcourt as well. Who would be the odd man out if the Hawks acquire Monte? That’s almost 35-40 mil spent in the backcourt alone. I think some of that money could be better spent elsewhere. And how would replacing Brandon with Josh at the 4 be an improvement???

Clyde

June 17th, 2009
3:30 pm

Didn’t they draft Sheldon Williams without bringing him in for a workout?

Clyde

June 17th, 2009
3:35 pm

Thabeet might not be impressive to yall but he’s just what this team needs. And that’s a defensive minded center that can block shots. If Horford can’t do it lets bring in someone else to try and get the job done.

O'brien

June 17th, 2009
3:37 pm

tb,

No way I acquire Monte Ellis. His contract is too rich. And Brandon has too much to learn. Now if we could get Biedrins and Brandon for Josh and the 19th pick maybe, that’s one to think about.

detrain

June 17th, 2009
4:01 pm

After last year’s playoff series performace against Boston, Josh and Al have to be untouchable. They possess the fight/energy we need.

My observation tells me that the hawks team has a shooting pecking order. Instruct Marvin to shoot more and he will shoot with a better precentage than anyone on the team. Marvin can average 20 pts a game.

The best use of the PG allotment is to go after Sessions, because Bibby want come cheap enough. There is enough cap space to acquire Session and Charlie V.

Joe is our only All-star, but his greatest value is in a trade with NY or NJ. they need a chip to lure another all-star next year. Joe will leave at the end of next year. NY can offer Q. Rich, David Lee and the #8 pick. Move Lee and a lesser player to obtain Thabeet in the draft. We still have experience in Q Rich. at shooting guard. We have added debth; at center (shot blocking/rebounding), backcourt guard with the 8th pick (pt. or shooting) and a young Joe with the 19th pick (Marcus Thornton).

The team is better and faster.

rms

June 17th, 2009
4:40 pm

Based on the Hawks draft history I am not all impressed just because they got guys working out in their gym and are traveling all over looking at different players. Someone obviously aint listening or dropped the ball when it comes to selecting who to draft because otherwise we wouldnt have blown so many obvious picks in the past. I know other teams mess up too its just for a team that has been losing for so long and deep playoff history of championship trophy a missed draft pick can cause your team a title.

cp

June 17th, 2009
4:58 pm

Yea I like Derrick Brown too. I would trade down to get him though and try to add another second round pick. I think it will be some nice talent in the second round. Seeing how we are cheap I’m guessing they would love to add inexpensive players to the roster. Ive been on the Clark, Terrance Williams, and Sam Young bandwagon for a minute now. If Clark and Williams are gone trade down and get Derrick Brown. I don’t like Mullens at all. He is raw and will need time but for some reason we never send guys to the NBDL which is where he will need to be to get some pt and experience. I forgot about Teague. I would take him if Clark and Williams are off the board. SO let me change it, Derrick Brown only if Clark, Williams, and Teague are off the board.

JustAThought

June 17th, 2009
4:59 pm

The NBA draft and Ric Sund equals…………NOTHING!

E43

June 17th, 2009
5:07 pm

we need a center and a point but the problem is. there are too many rotational and trust issues with the hawks. yes we can live with some but we cant have 1st 2nd and 3rd string rotational issues. were going to draft young catz that will need to concentrate on their own possition.
1st string
power forward playing center. drafting a center keeps the same issues or forces someone out the line up. joe overplaying minutes.

2nd tring
flip murray is listed as joes back up but he is also the 2nd string point guard. he will not want to come back and play behind a rookie and any rookie we draft may have to play behing him and we have another young pg being wasted out there.

3rd string
speedy, was a talented quick player but doesnt do much now.

this will be an interesting summer. mr sund has very many crucial decisions to make and the salary cap wont help much oh and j chill is a no go if flip murray signs first+ vice versa

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
5:16 pm

Replace JJ with Q-Rich??? lol!!

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
5:18 pm

NBA Draft combine at 7:30 on NBA TV.

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
5:19 pm

Damn, the Hawks just selected Rumeal Robinson. Oh, that’s the 93 draft there showing at the moment. Thank Goodness. lol!!!

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
5:34 pm

I’m sure we’d let Bibby go if we were to make that trade for Monte. And Brandon Wright might not be ready yet, but he sure did look good against us last year. He gave us fits. But I agree, Biedreins and Wright for Smith and 19 would be a lot better. Not sure if I’d do that either, but I’d definitely consider it. Depends on who we could get at 19.

Clyde

June 17th, 2009
5:36 pm

Fire Woody and Draft Thabet. Lets send Joe to a contender because in all reality he’s not going to win a championship here. Joe needs to play for a team that has a goal of winning a championship each year. Our goal was getting out of the first round this year and next year will be getting out of the second. Joe deserves better.

Lets send Joe and Horford to Memphis for Gay and the second pick.

Clyde

June 17th, 2009
5:37 pm

And yes Memphis can contend for a championship next year!!

Big Ray

June 17th, 2009
5:40 pm

Who cares about these workouts?

There are no good players in this year’s draft besides the 12 year old Rubio and Griffin who will be taken 1st. There’s not 1 superstar potential player in this draft.

We want to hear trade rumors!

Tyger

June 17th, 2009
5:50 pm

1. Let Bibby Walk – Flip outplayed him at 1/10th his salary.

2. Re-sign Marvin Williams – stop wasting top draft picks, it makes us look stupid.

3. Re-sign Flip, ZaZa, Solo – they deserve it and there’s not better in the free market.

4. Sign Drew Gooden – big bruiser we need to lock down paint.

5. AC Law is the PG – again stop wasting top draft picks, you look stupid. What makes anyone think the #19 PG is better than the #11 PG with 3 yrs experience? Again, you look stupid.

6. Draft Ellison or Thornton #19 and Garret Siles #49 – Woody wont play them anyway.

7. Bring back BK before Sund turns us into the Oklahoma Thunder.

8. Where’s Lenny Wilkens, the winningest coach in NBA history?

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
5:51 pm

Josh Smith cant play the 3, but Marvin can play the 4. Who’s expendable? Just a thought.

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
6:42 pm

Clyde, if we get Gay, what do we do with Marvin?

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
6:42 pm

Move him to the 2.

Melvin

June 17th, 2009
6:54 pm

Hmmm, Chad Ford revised part of his statement on yesterday. I think even he doesn’t see the logic in his trade rumor…

“Brookes (Washington, DC)
What do you expect to be the asking price for Josh Smith?

Chad Ford
A little cap relief so they can sign all of their other free agents like Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby, Zaza Pachulia, Josh Childress and Ronald Murray.The problem is that teams don’t want to pay his trade kicker which is $7.2 million (not the $6 million I reported yesterday)”

Melvin

June 17th, 2009
7:02 pm

Big Ray,

You may enjoy this Chad Ford response…

“Joe (MD)
Who is the biggest sleeper in the draft and who will be the biggest bust?

Chad Ford
Maybe Earl Clark. He has the talent to be very, very, very good. People are understandably worried about his work ethic, but if he matures and gets it, he could be terrific.”

Hawk n the Ham

June 17th, 2009
7:23 pm

Stop it with the Josh Smith rumors. If I’m not mistaken he was the only Hawk in the playoffs who was a consitant top scorer for the birds and the vocal leader as well.

Sign and trade Marvin along with Big Al for Bosh. Keep Flip, Mo Evans, and Zaza.

With the addition of Bosh, the Hawks would have one of the best frontcourts with Bosh, Smoothe, & Evans.

Hoops

June 17th, 2009
7:47 pm

RE-THINK THE JOSH TRADE!!!

The 7.2M trade kicker on Josh’s contract means that he is not going anywhere! So how do we improve and keep Josh?

Josh has to play inside! He has no outside shot, but he is very athletic and can score inside against a PF. So, we need a center that can score from the outside. That will allow us to post up Josh and pull the other teams big man out. So, who has a trade idea for a center that can score from the perimeter?

darrell starks

June 17th, 2009
7:55 pm

HOOPS bosh like i say we need no more scrubs on this team or role player we need batman and robin and maybe we have robin in joe but no batman.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
8:04 pm

Just saw Woody sitting on the sideline at the combine. Oh no, he’s influencing the pick. lol!

terrell barron

June 17th, 2009
8:09 pm

Hoops, we could just pick up Rasheed.

darrell starks

June 17th, 2009
8:09 pm

2009 CHAMPION KOBE AND PAUL GASOL
2008 CHAMPION ALLEN GARNETT AND PIERCE
2007 CHAMPION PARKER DUNCAN AND GINOBILI
2006 CHAMPION D WAYDE AND SHAK
2005 CHAMPION PARKER DUNCAN AND GINOBILI
AND LIST GOES ON WE NEED A STAR PLAYER PERIOD.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

niremetal

June 17th, 2009
8:24 pm

Darrell,

Noticed that you stopped at…

2004 CHAMPION RIP CHAUNCEY WALLACES PRINCE
2003 CHAMPION DUNCAN…UH…STEPHEN JACKSON?

Hoops

June 17th, 2009
9:52 pm

terrell barron,

I read somewhere that Rasheed was demanding 8M per for a min. of 2 years. Do you think he is worth that much @ this stage in his career?

Astro Joe

June 17th, 2009
10:10 pm

The other reason tha Smith rumor was BS (especially in the context of the draft rumors) is that Smith’s is worth only half of his contract value until 7/1 (after the draft). So if we traded him prior to the draft, we get about $5M back in value. That means he would be traded for maybe 1 pick and either a guy on his rookie contract or a MLE-type vet (like James Posey as an example… no I’m not asking for Posey, just using him as an example of a MLE player). I truly cannot see the ASG doing that.

Now after the draft, all bets are off. But a $7.2M trade kicker certainly seems like a deal breaker for a slew of teams.

I’m glad to hear that Douglas will get a workout here at Philips. Also glad that the big man from Augusta will get a look. Too bad the Hawks aren’t likely to secure a dietician for the young man and send him to the NBDL. That would be the appropriate path for a late second round pick. NBA games are no place to attempt to develop big men projects (like RandMo) or the Augusta kid.

Astro Joe

June 17th, 2009
10:13 pm

So doc & Richbrave, do the Bravos need to hire an offensive coordinator? Their offense is far more anemic than the Hawks. Iso Joe is far better than iso Chipper. What a disappointment. I told y’all during the end of the Hawks season, enjoy, because it’s not as if Atlanta teams are standard guests in the post-season. Braves may be done by the end of July.

doc

June 17th, 2009
10:53 pm

astro as you know we briefly hit on the braves before they broke camp. i just couldnt get excited about them. still not and they made a huge mistake in giving chipper such a big contract when there is so little to spend. he plays the number of games you expect a catcher to play or less. though i was giddy at the time not keeping tex has hurt them and they should have found a way to throw a little caution to the wind budget wise as they killed their farm in the process.

fundamentals in the field arent there so it is a hard team to watch. persons to blame dont play the game, yup only have to look as far as colorado to see what coaching or managerial changes can do for a team this year, maybe time to try it here, anyone want torre? uh i do remember you feeling a bit positive when we last spoke, guess you have changed your mind.

i know many including you aj and ray will enjoy this comment: When asked about the youth and inexperience on defense, he said, “I can tell you that we as a staff will never be afraid to play our young players. man dimetrof doesnt miss anything when it comes to comments, fresh and up front. only wish we could get something so refreshing here for our team:

goes on to say he and smith are on the same page. never hear that stuff from the basg on down.

niremetal

June 17th, 2009
11:31 pm

Anyone read Schultz’s latest proposal? It is quite possibly the worst idea ever. I don’t simply mean the worst trade proposal ever. I mean the worst idea that we, as a human race, have ever created.

richbrave

June 17th, 2009
11:34 pm

Astro Joe:

Absolutely not JOE, the BRAVES hitters are collectively offensive enough already. No need to coordinate when they’re all on the same page. Ba-da boom!!!!

Samuel

June 17th, 2009
11:35 pm

Not to change the subject but it was so ironic that on Sunday I pick up the paper and see none other than the Chipster and his “Good Ole” Buddies posing for a picture along with “Bambie”(who wouldn’t hurt a flee) after they just murdered him.

Turn over a couple of pages and “Public Enemy #1″, aka “The Boogie Man”, aka MV7 is begging for an opportunity to make a living after serving a year in the worst prison in the country for financing some “killing machines” doing what they do best.

Coincidence, I don’t think so.

richbrave

June 17th, 2009
11:39 pm

SAMUEL:

You know SAM, I been wondering if that’s what’s ailing GARRETT ANDERSON. just sayin’.

Najeh Davenpoop

June 18th, 2009
12:07 am

My personal opinion is that workouts can do a lot more to distort your opinion of a prospect than they can to clarify it. I don’t see what you can really gain from a workout that you can’t gain from watching them play actual basketball, no matter at what level. There is some relevance to wingspan, height, etc. but if that is making or breaking the decision to draft a player for a GM, that team is probably not going to be successful, in my opinion.

To Tyler from the previous blog: I don’t “trash” Euros as much as I simply don’t buy into the hype year in and year out for every foreign prospect who enters the league. Check the post niremetal wrote in response to me on the previous blog. He has a pretty interesting and well thought out theory.

Samuel

June 18th, 2009
12:07 am

Fells on defense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqwSbKW8UTU&feature=related

Najeh Davenpoop

June 18th, 2009
12:32 am

Co-sign Samuel at 11:35 PM. To the fullest.

King Beef

June 18th, 2009
12:46 am

This is the real truth. Mike Woodson has had heated arguments with Antoine Walker, Tony Delk, Anthony Johnson, Boris Diaw, Salim, Acie, Marvin, Childress, Shelden, Jon Barry, Zaza, Mo Evans and Flip. Some of them almost became physical. Some of the players also said they didn’t want to play for him. Yet the only person you hear about is Josh Smith. He is allegedly hard to coach. Funny, the common denominator seems to be Mike Woodson. Sekou, please respond to this and tell me I am lying.

Mike is back

June 18th, 2009
1:12 am

The best move for the Hawks is to trade JJ to Wash for Butler and McGhee and switch first round picks. This all but assures that Woody will have to revamp his offense. I would not trade Josh or Marvin…they both can play three positions. Who else on the Hawks squad can do that? When AI was traded to Denver, everyone thought that Philly would be in a four or five year rebuilding period before they would be relevant in the league again…funny thing happen…after AI left, the ball started flowing and everyone was involved in the offense…they started playing up-tempo ball…well you know the rest.

I think Derrick Rose will make some teams gamble on PGs…but in reality all of the PGs in this year drafts are 2nd round picks save for Curry and maybe Lawson. I don’t see any PG falling to 19th that Woody would actually play…so why waste another 1st round pick. DeJuan Blair can give us what Big Baby gives Boston…a wide body to play in the pivot. If not Blair, than take the best available Big with the most upsides. The Hawks have a well-documented history of being much maligned when it comes to PGs.

I would go with Mullens , Blair, or Josh Heytvelt…they all carry a high degree of risk…but at the 19th you can live with those picks just as much as you could with the aforementioned PGs. I think Sund is fully aware of Woody disdain for young pgs. Look at the misery Acie has endured…enough is enough. Start drafting Big bodies that can help out in the pivot. Look at Gortat…he’s no dynamo…but he can play basketball…you wouldn’t know it based on his physique. Draft the best Big available and develop him.

If you are going to go with the best available player at 19th than go with Sam Young if he is still on the board, he reminds me of Al Thornton of the Clippers…but he can shoot the 3. He’s a huge sleeper in this year draft and a tremendous talent. Unfortunately, for the Hawks they are stacked at the SF position…that’s why I say go with the best Big with the most upsides. No more PGs during Woody’s tenure pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike is back

June 18th, 2009
1:23 am

I’m not a numbers guy…but I’m sure they would have to get another team involved to make the numbers work.

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
1:57 am

I would not trade Josh or Marvin…they both can play three positions. Who else on the Hawks squad can do that?

Um…first off, neither of them can play 3 positions. Josh can play PF. His perimeter game and lateral quickness aren’t good enough for him to be a consistent SF, but he can get by there in spurts. Marvin can play SF. His post game and upper body strength aren’t good enough for him to be a consistent PF, but he can can by there in spurts. I have NO clue what the third position for each would be. Marvin might be able to play a handful of minutes at the 2, but not many. We’ve seen Josh play a few minutes at C, but not many. Both of them are “combo forwards” that lean strongly toward one positions

In fact, the only guys on the Hawks who can (and, as it happens, do) play even two positions with relative ease are JJ (SG and SF), Horford (PF and C), and Flip (SG and PG). JJ is the only player on our roster with a significant amount of experience playing three different positions, thanks to his role as “backup PG” in Phoenix and the ill-conceived effort to make him a PG in ‘05 here.

So the statement you made makes very little sense to me…

Najeh Davenpoop

June 18th, 2009
2:41 am

It wouldn’t surprise me if someone has linked this already, but Lang Whitaker of Slam Magazine lays out in pretty clear detail why Josh Smith won’t be traded — at least not before free agency begins.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
6:52 am

Sekou, Make sure to look at Ellingtons playmaking ability off the dribble. Please ignore his jumpshot. I’ve seen enough drills/practise footage of him to tell you that he rarely misses a jumpshot in practice or drills lol. It’s the other(JJ-esque) stuff that i’m concerned with.

Now if this were Gerald Henderson(who Bricks more than half the jumpers he talkes lol) i’d be concerned about looking at hisjumper closely lol.

newkid

June 18th, 2009
8:52 am

Yesterday Thomas Dimitroff said: “I can tell you that we as a staff will never be afraid to play our young players.”

Just sayin…

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
9:08 am

nire,

I’m with you. Schultz idea of trading for Rafer Alston makes no sense to me either.

Samuel

June 18th, 2009
9:17 am

Again,

I don’t watch much college basketball but I have been youtubing and watching these workouts.

I would have loved to see Blake Griffin but I didn’t. So i’ll go with the concensus that he’s the best available. I know one thing, he sure aint 6′10. If he is then A Daye is 7′. From what i’ve seen Derozen seems to be the best all around player. I also like James Johnson and Ellington.

BJ Mullens looks like another Chris Mihm. Don’t do it. Did I mention a SG/SF sleeper from Snannon, Mississippi who is 6′6″ with a 7′ wingspand, crazy athleticism, lockdown “D” and excellent range.

http://wolfpackhoops.blogspot.com/2009/05/catching-up-with-courtney.html

Astro Joe

June 18th, 2009
9:30 am

“I can tell you that we as a staff will never be afraid to play our young players.” Glad to hear it, because if they go with only the 8+ year vets, they won’t likely be able to put 22 players on the field.

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
9:34 am

Samuel,

BJ Mullens could be the next Aaron Gray, the 7 footer for the Bulls. And that’s not a good thing either. But teams always tend to reach for these bigs.

Like Sund did when he drafted Swift, Petro, and Sene.

Samuel

June 18th, 2009
9:57 am

Yea Joe,

Wish we had special teams in the NBA. Well, I guess they kinda do. Mario and R. Ivey was our special teams allstars.

It’s amazing how people here keep saying that Woody doesn’t like young players but ignore the fact that we have been among the youngest teams in the league for the past few years.

Speaking of Royal, I see where he walked away from 900k a year averaging 3 pts a game. He’s got balls don’t he. Sixers just holding him back, I guess.

doc

June 18th, 2009
11:24 am

newk i quoted it as well earlier, didnt highlight it enough. it speaks for itself doesnt it. they also talk about how the ar on the same page. i dont see that as “HAWK CULTURE” do you?

samuel, agree and have said it before that is all mario is, a sprinter that hits hard for kickoff and punt teams only. sounds like the kid from mississippi is the type of athlete we need, does he have any skills?

Mike is back

June 18th, 2009
11:32 am

Niremetal, I knew talking about my homeboy would stair you up…as long as he is wearing a Hawks uniform…that’s my guy. However, the fact is that both guys have easily played three positions for the Hawks with Woody’s 7, 8 and sometimes 6 men rotations. Josh at the SF, PF, and Center…Marvin at the SG, SF, and PF. I didn’t imply that they were the most dynamic players at all three positions…Chill was the other guy that logged significant minutes at three different positions…that’s why I would love to see Sund make a hard push at Chill and Andersen…I think that easily improves the Hawks for the upcoming season.

However, I will use the word Potential with a big P at this point of both players career. They are very much a work in progress. I would at the very lease do a one-year deal with Marvin and see if his Post game takes a bounce like his three point shooting did this season. If he can continue to shoot the three and improve on his post game…I dare anyone on this board to talk about trading him. I think Marvin could easily slid in the 2 or 3 as his games continues to develop…and with that wide frame…you can still stick in the 4 when needed.

I’m keeping Smoove, Marvin, and Al at this point in their career. I hate to sound repetitive…but like everyone stated earlier…unless you are getting a legit 5 that can contribute immediately that’s under a long term contract…than it’s just to big a crap shoot to make a deal cuz the numbers look good on paper. None of that one year opt out crap either like the deal the Braves got raked over by the Texas Rangers…that trade set the franchise back three or fours years…now the guy is fifty rich playing for the Yankee.

You know what you are going to get from JJ and Bibby so you can better access their value…so I can understand Woody’s reliance on those guys. I think Sund will take a pg with one of his picks to hedge against Bibby’s negotiations. That will probably provide most of the drama going into FA…save for the NBA draft.

I could have told u I didn’t have a clue…than that would have spoil all the fun. Heh heh!!!!!!!

newkid

June 18th, 2009
11:37 am

AJ, my earlier TD attribution was intended as yet another gentle and loving dig at Woodson’s sometimes reluctance to play rookies. But you know for all we make of that charge, he played Horford and Marvin early and often, didn’t he? Maybe this reluctance is more directed toward young backcourt players rather than youngsters in general.

But isn’t it refreshing to witness the goings on in today’s Falcons’ land (particularly as it relates to the clear thought and effective actions of the GM) as compared to the so often hapless Hawks?

Rod from College Park

June 18th, 2009
11:43 am

“Um…first off, neither of them can play 3 positions. Josh can play PF. His perimeter game and lateral quickness aren’t good enough for him to be a consistent SF, but he can get by there in spurts. Marvin can play SF. His post game and upper body strength aren’t good enough for him to be a consistent PF, but he can can by there in spurts. I have NO clue what the third position for each would be. Marvin might be able to play a handful of minutes at the 2, but not many. We’ve seen Josh play a few minutes at C, but not many. Both of them are “combo forwards” that lean strongly toward one positions

In fact, the only guys on the Hawks who can (and, as it happens, do) play even two positions with relative ease are JJ (SG and SF), Horford (PF and C), and Flip (SG and PG). JJ is the only player on our roster with a significant amount of experience playing three different positions, thanks to his role as “backup PG” in Phoenix and the ill-conceived effort to make him a PG in ‘05 here.

So the statement you made makes very little sense to me…”

First thing you said basketball wise that shows me you might understand the game. Marvin can only play the 3 and occasionally the 2. He can’t guard any legit 4 in the league. Josh can play both forward spots (4 better than the 3) and he can defend some centers. He used to defend Okafor, Gasol, Wallace…… He is much more versatile defensively than Marvin is. The most versitile player is probably Joe who logs minutes at the 1 the 2 and the 3.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
11:57 am

Furthermore, If we’re looking to trade Josh for “Financial Reasons”, what in hell makes you think we’d be getting someone back of equal stature? Last time I checked Stoudamire/Bosh all Make MORE MONEY than Josh. Yes, we got Josh for a bargain compared to what those other losers are making (and the couldn’t even get their respective teams to the playoffs this year…..not to mention they also have lengthy Injury Histories) hands down.

If we were to trade Josh it would basically be a salary dump…..period. That would say a lot bout the direction this franchise is heading in. Say bye bye to Joe and Bibby, neither will come back nor sign here if Josh gets traded. Mo, yes-even Mo Evans will ask for his Walking papers. He made that clear Last off-season after signing with the Hawks, and they asked him (and Marvin) the importance of bringing Josh back Post-Olypiacos Scandal.

I’m a homer, but I certainly couldn’t support the team until we got new Management if they pulled a stunt like that…….

Mike is back

June 18th, 2009
11:58 am

NewK and Doc, its refreshing to have a guy like Thomas Dimitroff running a professional sports organization in the ATL…I got to get that Gonzales jersey…that will be an instant classic. Its obvious Blanks is committed to winning a championship.

Dimitroff time in New England has served him well. It’s time someone raise the bar around here. Hopefully Sund and the ASG is taking notice, Right!!!…dream on mike.lol

Astro Joe

June 18th, 2009
12:00 pm

newkid, actually, I think all of the “Woody doesn’t play young guys” bashing is directed to one specific player… Acie. And the fact is that Acie received decent time in the first few months of his rookie season. And he didn’t do a lot with that opportunity (shot less than 40% from the field). But yes, he should have received a little more of a shot this year. I just don’t think that he has the requisite catch & shoot skills.

If TD & Smith find out that any one of their rookies can’t cut it, I doubt that the rookie will be given repeated opportunities. These teams are trying to win, not just develop individual talent at the expense of victories. If Chevis Jackson gives up a ton of repeated big plays in the first few weeks, do they stick with him or does someone like Von Hutchins get his snaps? It’s not about Chevis’ development, it’s about team wins. I am pretty sure Coach Smith would do the right thing for the team.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
12:06 pm

Poop, I read it yesterday but didn’t post it so I think you’re good lol.

Basically, Josh is worth 17mill with the Trade Kicker. On top of that, the Kicker acts as a no trade clause b/c Josh has to give consent on any trade involving himself within a year of signing his contract I believe. On top of that, He’s a Base Year Compensation player which means the Hawks automatically take back half of his salary. So instead of being worth 10mill in a trade, he’s only worth about 5mill so if we wanted to get “Someone of equal skill/value” we would have to add another (or a few) players to make it work.

newkid

June 18th, 2009
12:48 pm

doc, I find comparing the two organizational cultures (i.e., Hawks and Falcons) from afar almost nightmarish. But then I quickly recall that the current well-deserved respect many of us have for the Blank-TD-Smith marriage is a rather recent phenomenon. I”m sure you recall the many years most of us had a sort of Clampetts view of the Smiths (perhaps rightfully so), then Mr. Blank ‘came to town’ and – despite a few hitches along the way – introduced effective introspection and financial commitment to building a team capable of competing for the Lombardi trophy. To have accomplished this in such a short time ought to give us all hope that it can be replicated by the Hawks, but gosh isn’t it so excrutiatingly frustrating to have to wait so long for its evolution? Do you ever wonder if they (i.e., the ASG) view our ‘rants’ as just reflections of bellicose and verbose fans with no better diversions, or do they sometimes view this for the ‘cry for competence’ that it really is?

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
12:56 pm

Ariose,

I’m pretty sure the trade kicker doesn’t require the player’s approval before trading. It just acts a heavy deterrent to trading because it means that the team acquiring the player must pay a massive bonus to get him – and a team isn’t likely to pay that bonus unless they’re damned sure they want the player.

Whitaker also got the BYC rules wrong. The BYC rules only apply for 6 months or until June 30, whichever comes later. So Josh will no longer be a BYC player as of July 1.

Lastly, the BYC rules mean that the Hawks consider Josh’s BYC salary in trades, but the other team has to consider his full salary PLUS the trade kicker.

In other words, between now and June 30, Josh’s “cap number” for trades from our perspective is ~$5M. For other teams, it’s ~$16M (his actual salary plus the trade kicker) which makes trading him to a team over the cap impossible.

After June 30, his cap number for trades from the Hawks’ perspective becomes $10M, but for other teams it remains ~$16M (again, his actual salary plus the trade kicker – but the kicker is a little less since there’s a year less left on his contract).

Tyler

June 18th, 2009
1:05 pm

Najeh, so you don’t buy into the “Euro hype year in and year out” despite the fact that they have a higher success rate than Americans entering the draft? The fact that Europe sends their best and the NCAA can send anyone is moot here. The only hyped ones that busted were Sarunas, Tskitishvili, and Milicic. The others who were hyped were successful or they became stars in a league that isn’t tailored for their type of game in the first place. It sounds like you just hate Euros dude.

newkid

June 18th, 2009
1:05 pm

Ole grad school buddy just sent over this thing called ‘draft rater’ from ESPN’s site. Have you guys seen it? Had Lawson rated a top pro prospect in this year’s draft. Gotta love those Carolina guys, huh?

Tyler

June 18th, 2009
1:06 pm

niremetal, thanks for clearing that up. This CBA stuff can get pretty confusing.

Astro Joe

June 18th, 2009
1:22 pm

Tyler, I’m going to butcher some spellings, but how about Marciej Lampe? Or Pavel Potenpokopo? Or the guy who played for the Rockets for a year, guard, as I recall (Spanuloiuopiu)? It’s hard to make the comparison because many of the drafted Euro players stay over there. I’ve read about Tiago Splitter for the last 30 years and who knows when or if he’ll ever show up.

(And any team who drafts Rubio better be prepared for the buy-out drama to rear it’s ugly head).

For me, the Hawks have enough problems scouting a guy who played 4 hours away (Shelden). No way would I trust them to forecast the contributions of someone more than 4 time zones away.

dap01

June 18th, 2009
1:54 pm

SEKOU: Any word from the work outs?
Since we would not get equal talent from trading Josh because of the contract situation, then we should NOT trade him. We are in a building mode not a cost cutting mode to save over the hill PG’s. If a move does not help up long term, we should not do it.

I sure hope Sund surprises me.

HawkKingBibby

June 18th, 2009
1:55 pm

Sekou are you sure its mid August when the byc runs out? Ive seen several places where it says it runs out July 1st.

The Flash

June 18th, 2009
2:38 pm

There will be no major moves this year. Period. There will be no major moves until you know what is resolved, which could be a while, unless my boy losses bad. By major moves, I mean either moving JJ or signing someone like Bosh.

So, I would look to the draft. For the life of me, I don’t know why I haven’t heard anyone talking about the big from Michigan State. Now there is a power forward who can shoot, pass, rebound and defend, and completely understands the game.

Oh, I definitely would get rid of Woody if I drafted a Euro like that kid. Definitely.

If I could get Young from Pittsburgh for either MW or Josh, in a second it would be done.

Hawksfanatic

June 18th, 2009
2:40 pm

Nire good post, but you are wrong about the “cap number” for other teams:

“In other words, between now and June 30, Josh’s “cap number” for trades from our perspective is ~$5M. For other teams, it’s ~$16M (his actual salary plus the trade kicker) which makes trading him to a team over the cap impossible.”

For one, Smoove’s trade kicker is not $6 million as has been falsely reported, its actually 15% of his remaining salary. Right now that value is at $7.2 million. You also do not simply add the trade kicker and his current year’s salary, the trade kicker needs to be divided by the number of remaining years on the contract and added to each year. It is paid to Smoove upfront, but for cap purposes it is spread throughout the life of the contract much like how Joe’s signing bonus was calculated. If you want a better discussion on Smoove’s trade kicker, there was a thread on it a few weeks ago on the ‘Squawk. You can see it here: http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php?showtopic=336953

I.MUS WRITE

June 18th, 2009
2:47 pm

Who turned out the lights………. Garret Siler just came into my work…….. Now thats what a center is supposed to look like _Not 6′9 250 but 6′11 300+…. This guy is a monster physically and he looks to be really mobile for a guy his size……. He told me toney douglas was tearing it up in the workout……… Hope we can get both of them-

Tyler

June 18th, 2009
2:52 pm

Astro Joe, Lampe and Spanoulis were 2nd round picks, hardly considered “highly touted”. And I think you mean Vitaly Potapenko who was chosen one pick ahead of Kobe Bryant in 1996. Yea he wasn’t great but he wasn’t a bust either.

Flash, I totally forgot about Goran Suton. He would be a really nice fit for us off the bench. Like you said, he’s tough and he passes, shoots, and rebounds. Can’t ask for more than that from a 2nd round pick.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
2:54 pm

Nire, I’m pretty sire that Until mid-August like sekou stated, we have to pay half of his contract during a trade. After August it doesn’t go up to 10mill for us. We don’t have to pay any part of his salary after that. With that being said, Wouldn’t the BYC acutaully make smooves value go DOWN from 17mill to around 11mill for the team trying to aquire him? Then After Mid-August, wouldn’t it move up to 17mill for any team trying to trade for him?

If i’m wong, that means I haven’t been paying attention to all the lectures MannyT has been giving us about this stuff since forever lol.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
3:01 pm

I.Mus, I haven’t seen any footage of him. Is he any good?

I.MUS WRITE

June 18th, 2009
3:04 pm

Terrell if i were Gm I wouldnt do that trade…… I would do a Josh/AC/1st for Beidrins/Ellis

I.MUS WRITE

June 18th, 2009
3:23 pm

I have’nt sseen anything on him either AJ but going off size-he would be a great pick in round2 but he may not be there when we pick……. I would be willing to bet that that guy is better than Solo and Shellhead right now……I remember him coming in here about a yr ago but i didnt know who he was -seems like a nice kid-i hope we get him….. when I read the scouting reports on him -I looked at the measurements and I expected sumone outta shape and kind of flabby but dude looks put together.

Terrell -I take that back -monte makes to much money – Flip made 1.5 last year and monte is’nt 12mill a year better than flip…….. sumone said it before me but Bedrinis and Wright I would definitely have to think about…………

Trade JJ for QRich…. Thats a joke -no way in hell man

Melvin

June 18th, 2009
3:25 pm

Even after Sekou has written an entire blog dedicated to Josh trade rumors folks still can’t get enough of him. I mean, this blog is suppose to be about potential draft picks. I know, freedom of speech..:)

Josh = “The Most Interesting Man in the World”

Melvin

June 18th, 2009
3:27 pm

IMUS,

Even if Siler doesn’t have skills, sounds like he may scare a few people walking on to the court. RandMo 2.0???????????

JayL

June 18th, 2009
3:29 pm

Hey – any truth to the rumor that Billy Knight will be with the Knicks come July? There’s some talk in NYC….

Melvin

June 18th, 2009
3:30 pm

JayL,

I’m sure a few Hawks fans would pay for his bus ticket to get out of the A-town…

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
3:31 pm

Sekou,

Check out Larry Coon’s FAQ on BYC:
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q73

If [BYC provisions] apply, then the player is considered a base year player. A player remains a base year player for six months, or until June 30, whichever comes later.

No offense to Lang, but I’ll take Larry Coon’s word over his on salary cap rules any day.

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
3:35 pm

Also, two things:

One the “~” indicated that I was guesstimating the salary/trade numbers since I didn’t want to take the time to look it up and do the math on the bonus (which I DO realize is 15% of his remaining contract).

And second, I said “I’m pretty sure” because of this, which is in Q85 of Coon’s FAQ:
For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent (however, the player can consent to a trade to any team except the team that tried to sign him)..

Admittedly, that means we can’t trade Josh until August, but it also means the trade kicker in and of itself.

Again, on salary cap issues, Coon is the man. Lang Whitaker is not.

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
3:36 pm

*means the trade kicker in and of itself doesn’t give Josh a right to veto trades.

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
3:38 pm

Lastly, Hawksfanatic is right about the kicker being spread out over the life of the contract rather than being paid out all at once. I misread Coon’s faq entry on that point…my bad.

Daniel

June 18th, 2009
3:44 pm

you know guys that is thing about the NBA and the cap and contracts and all that. It is overly complicated. Yet, some teams(Boston, LA, NY) never seem to get caught by it. Is it just me or does it seem like the whole system is set up to be mysterious and confusing so that certain franchises succeed? Or am I just paranoid.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
3:45 pm

Melvin, Lol @ Dos Equis refrence hehehehe…….

KevinA

June 18th, 2009
3:49 pm

According to Hoops Hype Josh will only leave if he wants to leave. Josh can nix any deal.

With Woodys offense Josh ends up with the ball at the top of the key with little time remaining. Does that make him a point guard?

MannyT

June 18th, 2009
3:51 pm

I have no idea what Josh’s trade kicker is. Per the CBA, it cannot be more than 15% of the remaining value of his contract. If the whole deal was 5 yr/58 mil without option years, there will be $48 mil left…so max trade kicker is $7.2 mil…matches Lang’s SLAM article.

The italicized info below is referenced line from article XXIV, section 2(a)(ii) of the NBA CBA.

(ii) A trade bonus shall not exceed 15% of the Base Compensation remaining to be earned by the player pursuant to the Contract at the time of the trade (excluding an Option Year if not yet exercised).

For the few folks that would say it could be higher if a draft day deal is done, just keep in mind that most draft day deals that involve BYC players are not effective until after their base year is over. There has been some back & forth about when Josh is no longer BYC. I think the date is July 1, 2009. BYC lasts until that latter of 6 months after you sign a contract OR the next June 30. (Yes there are some funky exceptions that were written for niremetal and the legal crew, but I don’t think they apply to Smith.

The italicized info below is referenced line from the latter half of article VII, Section 6(h)(4)(ii) of the NBA CBA.

A player’s Base Year Compensation shall go into effect on the date the new contract is entered into or, in the case of an Extension, the day following the last day of the Moratorium Period that precedes the first Season of the extended term and shall expire and be of no further effect on the later of (x) the following June 30, or (y) six (6) months following the date the Base Year Compensation goes into effect.

Ariose, don’t put me in the hot seat unless Regis or Meredith Viera has a check for me. I don’t know of circumstances where the old team pays the salary of a guy on a new team under the same contract in the NBA. There are pleny of examples of the old team paying the old contract of a guy that no longer plays for them. Now if Josh had something funky written into his contract, I have no way of knowing. Sekou brought up the great point that we know little about the contractual details of any of these guys. If your agent is worth his/her share, there should be something in all of those contacts that make it more than any of us pulling down a template into a Word processor and pulling the all mighty replace player name with (actual player name).

If not, please sign me up for agent school TODAY. I am very confident in my basic Microsoft Office skills.

BWAF

MannyT

June 18th, 2009
4:03 pm

FYI, someone posted concerns to Lang about some of his detail on the Josh trade thing. Lang noted that he will address those questions on Friday in the Links.

Soon, you’ll know.

BWAF

Melvin

June 18th, 2009
4:06 pm

Nire,

In your link, I notice Coon made this statement below.

“For Larry Bird or Early Bird players, the player’s BYC begins on the date he signs his contract. ”

Wouldn’t that mean Josh BYC provision would apply until Mid August (when he signed his contract)?????

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
4:06 pm

Manny, LOL. Didn’t mean to drag you into the debate hehehe…..So I guess Josh’s BYC isn’t much of a problem at this juncture b/c teams trying to aquire him wold just wait until July 1st.

Melvin

June 18th, 2009
4:35 pm

Nire,
Please ignore my 4:06 post. I believe you are right about July 1st Josh BYC would no longer apply. Like you said, according to Q85. We can’t trade Josh until after the 1st year of his contract which would be in August.

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
4:41 pm

Sekou,

I def understand that the contract can have provisions that do weird things that place restrictions beyond those required under the CBA. So if there are additional provisions like a no-clause included in Josh’s contract, I get that. And again – I was approximating the salaries, not giving them in absolute terms (which is why I put tildes in front of all the salaries). But Lang’s article made it sound like the trade kicker is what created a no-trade provision in Josh’s contract:

Basically, a “trade kicker” works like a no-trade clause. To have a no-trade clause as an NBA player, you have to have 8 years of service with the same team. Josh does not have that much service with the Hawks, but the kicker basically works like a no-trade, as far as the player is concerned.

That makes it sound like all trade kickers have a no-trade clause effect. All I’m saying is that the trade kicker is a separate thing from any trade restrictions – although yes, I should have granted that Josh’s specific contract might tie the two together. The important thing to remember, which Whitaker did not acknowledge, is that if the other team IS willing to pay the trade kicker, Josh would not inherently have the right to veto the trade by virtue of the trade kicker.

In short, Whitaker was wrong and I was also wrong.

Melvin,

MannyT’s post did a good job of explaining it better than I did. You’re right about the BYC beginning on the date he signed his contract, but for some reason you read it as “For Larry Bird or Early Bird players, the player’s BYC begins on the date he signs his contract and last for one year” even though the last 5 words aren’t there. Here’s the way to look at it, which is pulled from different parts of the same question on that FAQ:

For Larry Bird or Early Bird players, the player’s BYC begins on the date he signs his contract… A player remains a base year player for six months, or until June 30, whichever comes later.

In any case, the issue with trading Smoove is less the BYC rules and more the trade kicker rules and whatever restrictive provisions the Grizzlies built into their offer sheet to Smoove.

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
4:43 pm

Sorry, Melvin, saw your post too late

Now back to the bar books…

E43

June 18th, 2009
4:51 pm

the rosters are set we can only hope. i mean with josh smiths contract the only way we can get a superstar is if we draft one, the other way is if we cut some players sign one on the wire and build around him, however that would be taking the hawks team and organization backwards. right now the hawks will continue to get role players and build towards being a team like the pistons championship team. ive heard and read about trade scenarios all day but none of them include superstars. im sure someone Philadelphia fans have dibs on certain hawks players

Big Ray

June 18th, 2009
4:57 pm

When arguing semantics (what it may as well be to us, since none of us are making decisions with or for the Hawks organization), I’ll go with Lang and Sekou (guys who follow the team much, much closer than the rest of us are even capable of), with a nod to Mr. MannyT, who never overextends himself, and has a good working knowledge in the “numbers game.”

But the fact that this is a running conversation shows just how bored we really are…

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
5:03 pm

Clyde,

You said this: “Thabeet might not be impressive to yall but he’s just what this team needs. And that’s a defensive minded center that can block shots. If Horford can’t do it lets bring in someone else to try and get the job done.”

This is no knock on Thabeet, who certainly has the dreaded P word. BUT,

Horford RAISED his block shot total this year to 1.42 / gm. according to nba.com / stats. His block totals were higher than Nene, Joakim Noah, Sheed, Tyson Chandler, and Dampier, ALL of whom are supposed to be a defensive presence in the lane. And some of whom you have championed to bring here.

He was only .02 % behind Shaq, for God’s sake.

Between his rookie year and this past year, he raised his blocks by almost half a block per game (.94 to 1.42).

If his blocks go up that much again (doubtful, but possible) he would be the 7th highest center in the league.

I’m with Astro Joe on this one. Find a bruiser who can play 20 minutes and play them even more when we play Yao, Howard, etc.

But, by and large, the numbers actually support Sund’s view that Al is doing fine at Center.

newkid

June 18th, 2009
5:19 pm

Good and useful perspective Sekou. After having read some of the media reports about the potentially obstructive language Memphis wisely placed in the Smoove offer, one can’t but wonder why a GM intent on ‘meeting’ an offer would allow himself to be ‘cornered’ by the contrived offer of another GM. Seems the $$$ the Hawks might have saved (as it were) by reacting to Memphis’ offer – rather than proactively making an offer of its own – may turn out to have been extremely unwise. There are precious few substitutes – particularly in the business world – for surrounding one’s self with smart forward-thinking personnel.

Big Ray

June 18th, 2009
5:34 pm

Newkid,

Some people don’t like to surround themselves with smart, forward-thinking personnel. They view them as threats to either their job, or their iron-fisted control. It may be that our GM AND head coach have the same disease….or I could be talking out of my lower orifice, but the proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

Other teams worry about the summer of 2010. I’d be glad if we manage to do more than limp through ‘09..

newkid

June 18th, 2009
5:37 pm

I hear ya Ray.

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
5:38 pm

Sekou,

If Acie matched up one on one against Lawson, Jeff Teague, Eric Maynor, or Patty Mills, who do you think would win? And why?

terrell barron

June 18th, 2009
5:53 pm

Remember whaen a lot of people were hollering for Corey Brewer a couple of years ago? Is he still in the league? lol!

terrell barron

June 18th, 2009
5:56 pm

Obrien, it depends on if Ole Woodrow is in the building or not.

terrell barron

June 18th, 2009
5:57 pm

Ole Woodrow(the confidence shaker)that is.

MannyT

June 18th, 2009
6:10 pm

Ray, thanks for the kind words of objectivity. I’ll grab that 8 oz glass that has 4 oz of water in it and smile

We are in that no activity, bash things about in the summer mode that I like to call canniblogging. I think that Silence of the Lambs guy would have been great at it

I would guess that it is mathematically possible, but realistically unfeasible to move Josh soon. Not to say that he would never be traded, but I think Sund has enough to do with all of the free agents and draft picks.

But if you really want to throw a fantasy hook in things, if we renounce the unrestricted free agents and tender Marvin, I believe the Hawks would be under the salary cap even with the holds for the draft picks and roster fills. If we are under the cap BYC does not apply.

Now all you conspiracy theorists can have at it…just keep in mind that this is a crazy concept. Renouncing Zaza means no Bird rights, no sign & trade opportunity. I think renouncing Bibby effectively tells him to leave even though staying meant a pay cut. Not sure what renouncing Flip means aside from telling the rest of the league that we are idiots. We have no Bird rights for Flip even though he is getting a raise.

Sekou, we need to make a No Evil offseason calendar for you. In this time of year, you can see the action, but cannot tell…this is speak no evil season. During the dead of summer after the free agents are signed, there is little or nothing going on…See no evil season. When the preseason starts, there is nothing to actually worry about because regardless of the level of play, it does not count–even complaints are a little premature…thus Hear No Evil season. From November to the end of the playoffs–it is on…all evil allowed

BWAF

MannyT

June 18th, 2009
6:13 pm

terrell, that is cold. Corey Brewer was hurt this season.

Isn’t he essentially Chills lite? The way people keep talking about bringing Chills back, maybe Brewer would have a role here if he were available.

BWAF

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
7:21 pm

Guys, I saw this on Hoopshype.com. They were talking about Stephen Curry.

- extremely poised and confident
- great feel for the game
- loves big moments
- Limited upside
- soso athleticism
- defensive potential is a concern.

Guess who they compared him to? Mike Bibby.

Sautee

June 18th, 2009
7:48 pm

Manny T,

LOL, and welcome back.

Hoops

June 18th, 2009
8:14 pm

Manny T,

It sounds to me like the 7.2M trade kicker has eliminated teams from being interested in Josh. It also sounds like Josh was wanting to leave the Hawks last summer when he agreed to put the trade kicker in his contract. He was probably very surprised that the Hawks matched the Grizzlies offer, as was Memphis.

A Thinking Fan

June 18th, 2009
8:30 pm

Hawk’s Fans, you have a coach who can’t develop young players! Why move MW before you remove the real problem – MW HC

Hoops

June 18th, 2009
8:39 pm

I hope the Hawks have a plan to improve their draft position. I believe there are some good players to be had in this draft, but we are going to have to move up to get them. The only players that we have under contract that I would use to trade for a draft pick are Acie, Speedy, Morris, & Mo Evans. If we plan on going after Sessions @ PG, I would shop any of these players and our #19 pick for a 6-10 pick.

I don’t think there is a PG any better than Acie in this draft with the exception of Rubio. I would be afraid to draft him because he may not be able to get out of his contract kicker. If this is true, the Hawks need to move up to get the best SG or PF. I don’t think there is a center, with the exception of Thabeet, that is better than Zaza.

So, if my thinking is correct, the Hawks should plan on re-signing Flip, to back up Sessions, and Zaza. We need a SG to back up JJ in case we loose him next summer. I would like to see the Hawks move up to get T. Evans and use their #19 to get a PF to back up Josh if they don’t trade it. A better plan would be to make an offer to Charlie V. I don’t see a center that we can get to help @ this point.

This would not be a bad line up:
PG-Sessions, Flip
SG-JJ, T. Evans
SF-Marvin, Mo Evans
PF-Josh, Charlie V.
C-Horford, Zaza

Melvin

June 18th, 2009
9:15 pm

They are talking about the Hawks on NBA TV right now…

Melvin

June 18th, 2009
9:20 pm

NBA TV analysis suggest the Hawks should go with a PG with their 1st rnd pick. Ty Lawson was the guy the peg. They also said, the Hawks should retain their current frontcourt players (Josh,Marvin,AL)…

O'brien

June 18th, 2009
9:33 pm

Thanks for the reply Sekou. I agree that we dont know what we have in Acie. And that’s unfortunate, because if we knew what we had in him, then we wouldnt have to contemplate using our 19th pick on a PG (or we would have known to get rid of Acie for somebody else).

For a starting PG, I would prefer the Hawks sign somebody like Jarrett Jack or Ramon Sessions. I know they are both restricted FA, but they will be cheaper than Bibby. Bibby will probably get $7 or $8 million per year. I think Jack or Sessions can be had for $5 mil per year (Jack made $2 mil last season, Sessions made $800k). I dont think their contracts will be matched. (For the record, I say we sign Jack, and then we sign Charlie V).

Despite the chemistry and shot making, Bibby is too old for us to sign to a 3 year deal (bad defense, no penetration). Sign a young PG who can become part of the nucleus for the next 5 years..

niremetal

June 18th, 2009
9:42 pm

Astro,

Pavel Potenpokopo? I think you’re confusing Pavel Podkolzin and Vitaly Potapenko

A Tribe Called Quest

June 18th, 2009
9:42 pm

I’m sick and tired of these “the Hawks have gone as far as they can go” comments. What is the basis of these asinine statements? The Hawks were not healthy at all this year, and Duck underachieved, as did Horford. All we need are 1 or 2 more SOLID bench players and this team should be fine. And Bibby needs to lose weight

Astro Joe

June 18th, 2009
10:22 pm

nire, Pavel Podkolzin sounds about right. After 3 syllables, I tend to get lost. With the exception of Kardashian.

Douglas in the first round and Siler in the second wouldn’t upset me.

O’Brien, you wouldn’t be excited about having Bibby in his prime?

Hawksfanatic

June 18th, 2009
10:53 pm

Sekou, you are clearly getting Base-Year Compensation mixed up with trade restrictions on a player/team when the Right of First Refusal is used (i.e. matching an offer sheet). Base-Year Compensation is just a restriction placed on matching salaries for trades. A BYC player counts their full salary for team X but only 50% for the team trading them away. This creates a difficult situation for trading players but doesn’t make it impossible. This status clearly wears off 6 months after the signing of the contract or on June 30th, whichever is later. Since Josh signed in August, that makes June 30th a later date than February.

When the Right of First Refusal is used, there are restrictions placed on trading a player. For one, the team that signed the player to an offer sheet cannot receive that player in a trade under no circumstances for a whole year. The second restriction is that for a whole year the team who matched the offer sheet cannot trade the player without the player’s consent (basically a no-trade clause). The important part of the CBA for this is Article XI Section 5:

[i](g) After exercising its Right of First Refusal as described in this Section 5, the ROFR Team may not trade the Restricted Free Agent for one (1) year, without the player’s consent. Even with the player’s consent, for one (1) year, neither the ROFR Team exercising its Right of First Refusal nor any other Team may trade the player to the Team whose Offer Sheet was matched.[/i]

I believe this is what you are getting confused with BYC Sekou.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
11:24 pm

Ha!!! I was right!!! ONE Year PPL!!! see Manny, I was paying attention all along

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
11:26 pm

Ha! I knew I was Right! One Full year PPL! See Manny, I was paying attention all this time

O'Brien

June 18th, 2009
11:32 pm

Astro Joe,

As tempting as it is, I will pass on Bibby. The problem is, I have a hard time finding a team what will give him the money he wants. After all, how many contending teams (besides Philly and the Hawks) need a starting PG? The rebuilding teams will want to go young.

Unfortunately I think Bibby will be forced to resign with the Hawks. Because he wants to be a starter, and he wants to play for a good team.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
11:33 pm

“A BYC player counts their full salary for team X but only 50% for the team trading them away.”

Exactly, Which is why I said Smoove only couts for 6mill(for the Hawks) so other players would have to be added(by the Hawks).

I was confused though b/c I thought that meant that team X only had to put up 5mill to make up the difference, but I see now that they(Team X) would have to match Josh’s full contract of 11mill.

I’m good now….

Also the 7.2(or whatever) Trade Kicker is divided over he length of Josh’s contract correct? Or is it 7mill added up front(to be paid by Team X) if he were to be traded?

Najeh Davenpoop

June 18th, 2009
11:39 pm

Tyler, my opinion on Euros can “sound like” whatever you want it to sound like. I’m inclined to believe that niremetal’s theory is at least partially correct; maybe just as important, I don’t think the quality of play is as high in Euroleague as it is in the NBA, since the best European players are in the NBA already, which means that just as some players can produce against the competition of NCAA ball but can’t cut it in the NBA, the same applies to Euroleague as well.

On another note, I’m pretty sure just from memory that a higher percentage of American high school draftees have become useful NBA players than Euro draftees. Since you are so hung up on this topic, maybe you want to do the research?

Najeh Davenpoop

June 18th, 2009
11:39 pm

Damn, that’s a lot of commas in my last post… I think Ando may have possessed my soul there for a second.

Ariose

June 18th, 2009
11:41 pm

I really think Bibby wants to come back. He’s a guy who likes to be around Familiar surroundings……we’ll see He might not demand too much 4-5mill maybe if he really just wants to come back. I mean he’s made over 100mill during his career….he doesn’t NEED the money lol..

Najeh Davenpoop

June 18th, 2009
11:44 pm

For whatever it’s worth, according to euroleague.net, half of the top 20 scorers in this Euroleague season were either NBA has-beens (Carlos Arroyo) or NBA never-weres (D’Or Fischer? David Logan?)

I don’t hate Euros dude. All I’m saying is, dominating Euroleague doesn’t make you an NBA star. Rubio hasn’t proven anything more than Maynor has.

Hawksfanatic

June 18th, 2009
11:45 pm

Ariose, team X must pay the trade bonus within 30 days to Josh. However for cap purposes, you take the trade bonus and divide by the remaining years and then add that amount to each season. This spreads the effect of the trade bonus evenly throughout the life of the contract even though in terms of actual money flow, Josh gets paid big bucks almost immediately. Caphits are not always the exact same as what a team is paying a player, those need not be the same and that is where some people can get confused when talking about the CBA.

To clarify, currently Josh’s trade bonus is $7.2 million (i.e. 15% of the remaining value of his contract). This total value decreases next year as the total value remaining on Josh’s contract will be less.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
12:11 am

Hawksfanatic, Thanks for the clarifcation. I completely understand how this works now.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
12:25 am

Najeh,

I think you’re mostly right. I think that we need to stop thinking of Europe as a kind of “NBA minor league.” You’re right in that the level of talent over there doesn’t match the talent in the NBA. If it did, the Redeem Team wouldn’t have breezed through the Olympics like it did.

But whatever “gap” there once was in basketball talent is fast closing, as many people far more knowledgeable about this stuff than me have noted. Increasingly, the best young athletes around the world are playing basketball rather than (or at least in addition to) soccer or tennis. It’s remarkable how rapidly international basketball has developed over the past 20 years, when Drazen Petrovic first showed the way across the Atlantic. Even here, they’re meeting with increased success. Dirk won the MVP 2 years ago. Calderon is in the top 10 in assists. Argentinian Manu and French Tony have joined Virgin Island Tim in leading the closest thing to a dynasty of the past decade.

I think we’re not too far from a day where the Euroleague (and eventually maybe even the Chinese league) will be viewed not so much “worse” but rather as “different.” The real test will come when more American players who were NBA starter-quality start following Childress to Europe. The wider line, closer 3-point line, and tighter game-calling (lots more touch fouls called over there) make for a very different game.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
12:32 am

* wider lane.

That, by the way, is the biggest difference maker. That’s why all their big men have to know how to shoot – the lane is a good 3 feet wider at the point closest to the basket. But from what I gather, FIBA is adopting a narrower lane and a longer 3-point line starting next year. The lane will be just a couple inches wider than the NBA lane and the 3-point line will be just a foot inside the NBA line – basically, the distance all the way around will be about the equivalent of the NBA “corner 3″ line. It’ll be very interesting to see how that affects gameplay…

O'Brien

June 19th, 2009
12:34 am

Ariose,

I would be surprised if Bibby and Team Dime take $5 mil per. I am thinking he wants $7 mil annually. Also, Bibby probably wants 3 years. I hope the Hawks dont give in.

A Tribe Called Quest

June 19th, 2009
12:45 am

We need to do that Marvin-for-Butler trade.

We have no scorers besides Joe who struggles to score 20 with all the attention he gets. I’m sick of all these wild 22 year olds running around with no offensive consistency

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
1:34 am

I’m sick of all these wild 22 year olds running around with no offensive consistency

Joe? Is that you Joe?

O’Brien,

Someone will offer Bibby the full mid-level, which will sit somewhere in the $5.5-5.8M range. You can bank on that. Defense or no, he’s still in the upper half of the starting PGs in the league. LeBron was leaning hard on the Cavs’ brass to get him a couple years ago, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Heat went after him too. If Phoenix doesn’t want to pay Nash, they might go after the hometown boy – Bibby would at least sell a decent number of tickets around there (seriously…there are statues devoted to him and Sean Elliott on the ‘Zona campus) and I bet he’d love to finish his career back home.

And do I pay Bibby $6M to keep him here? Hell yes. Because he brings more to the table than a money perimeter stroke and mediocre defense. Even if he’s nothing more than a Steve Kerr type at this stage in his career, he’s a vocal leader. People forget that too often about him. The only thing that separates Tyronn Lue from Bibby are the intangibles, the things that don’t show up in the stats (you know, the things that make people wonder how Shane Battier’s teams always seem to win 10 more games than they should). Bring in a guy who puts up Bibby’s numbers but doesn’t bring his presence, and we backslide.

I’m not saying Bibby’s indispensible. I’m saying that you can’t just look at his stats and his diminishing quickness and conclude that we’d be better off bringing in a younger guy.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
2:22 am

…yup..

Ed

June 19th, 2009
3:29 am

A player cannot have a no-trade clause put into his contract w/o 8 years of service. That is why the trade kicker was put into place. Josh can agree to accept less but they cannot waive the entire sum even if Josh was willing to do so.

Simpdawg

June 19th, 2009
4:35 am

If Ty Lawson and Jeff Teague are selected before the 19th pick, I think the Hawks should trade their 19th and 49th picks to Portland for their 24th and 38th, with the 24th they could select Toney Douglas and with the 38th pick, they could take a gamble and select Garret Siler. Just a thought.

Big Ray

June 19th, 2009
7:12 am

….Snzzzzzzzz……

Big Ray

June 19th, 2009
8:14 am

Sekou,

Thanks for setting the record straight, although I’m sure there are some who find that to be bad news (or they’ll add in a false caveat of “well, I don’t have a problem with him, he just needs to improve this or that. Gee, that applies to everybody on the squad, and the coaching staff).

I hope ALL of our young guys (most specifically the frontcourt) take big steps this offseason, and come back in fine form, better than ever. And unlike some people, I actually mean that.

dap01

June 19th, 2009
8:19 am

I believe that Bibby would be a great role player with the team. The problem is that Woody will not utilize him in that role, he will ride him into the ground and let the other PG’s rot on the bench. We can’t trust Woody to see the whole picture.

jhan

June 19th, 2009
9:34 am

dap01 – couldn’t have said that better myself!

Hopefully the whole “Josh & his trade kicker” saga is over. I get tired of scrolling past 75% of the entries.

At least we’ll have something solid to blog about soon. The draft can’t get here soon enough!

I MUS WRITE

June 19th, 2009
9:53 am

Tribe -im with you on the trade…. If one of our forwards have to be moved it has to be Marv or the rights to Chillz. Butler is the consistent scorer we need. As far as free agents go……. I think Charlie V is just as good or better than Marvin so he would be the reserve forward I would go after. In the middle- Sign Gortat and draft Siler- that way we have Beef and athleticism at the 5.

I see this as our best option without giving up too much (draft picks/core player) There just are’nt that many skilled bigs that will be avaliable in Mid august when we start to make moves.

Pg’s – This is the tricky part, Teague,Lawson,Maynor,French gy may all be there at 19 – I would go after Teague or Lawson if they were all available…… Who ever the pick is wont play this year as Woody is still on his BS when it comes to yung guys. That means the guy will be glued to the end of the bench most of the year. thats fine becuz hopefully this will be his last year and we can get the guy sum playing time when a new coach is bought in…. kind of how teams draft guys and leave them over seas while holding their rights.

FLIP, AC, Lawson should be a good rotation…… I wouldnt bring Bibby back unless he took a 2 yr/12mill deal or sumthing in that range.

Our possible lineup could be

Flip/Ac/Lawson
JJ/Mo/Rio
CButler/Charlie V
Josh/Charlie V
Horford/Gortat/Siler

Hand out pink slips to…….. R Morris,Gardner,Speedy,Solo

ZAZA will join a western conference contender- they will value his toughness and O fennsive rebounding. if chills is’nt coming back then why hold his rights -we will probably lose him for nothing next summer…… Trade his rights for a late 1st or second and find a servicable wing player sg/sf type.

doc

June 19th, 2009
9:55 am

amen to that sekou!

i am wordless most of this sumer with all this blithering, blabber and sniveling about josh. the number two guy at worst on a team that just went over the mendoza line of 55 and they want to let him go? and with what he brings defensively to a very ordinary group of defensive guards because of his hops and effort? geez! it is hard to be civil with some of this stuff. as kirk says it is about the wins, take him away and it is all downhill.

Melvin

June 19th, 2009
10:05 am

Amen Sekou, Big Ray and Doc.

As I said on yesterday, all this Josh talk gets old….

Melvin

June 19th, 2009
10:08 am

Does anybody know if Devin Harris will be a free agent this summer? I noticed on Hoopshype they have his contract expiring this season. However, ESPN does not list him as a 2009 Free Agent….

Astro Joe

June 19th, 2009
10:13 am

Now that we’re done with the Josh bashing (after the team exceeded the 45 win plateau), we can now resume with the Woody bashing.

Happy Fathers Day!

dap01

June 19th, 2009
10:15 am

Any word on the workouts by the potential draft picks?

O'Brien

June 19th, 2009
10:18 am

nire,

I agree that Bibby has swagger, shot making skills, and vocal leadership. And there is team chemistry. But that can be replaced.

His mediocre defense has an effect that does not show up in the stat sheet. For example, his poor defense causes JJ to have to guard the quick PGs, which wears JJ out even more. Plus, his bad defense causes more fouls on our bigs when Bibby’s man drives into the lane. And how many times does our poor defensive rotation lead to an open shot, because we go to double Bibby’s guy? Plus, when his shot isn’t falling, his contribution is severely limited (even if the opposing tem still respects his shot). And if Bibby would drive more, then our bigs would also get some more easy shots. If we gave Bibby a 3 year deal, can you imagine how bad he wil be as he continues to get older and slower?

I MUS WRITE

I am with you on Charlie V. His numbers from this season:
16.2 ppg, 6.7 rpb, .345 3pt%, in 27 minutes per game (14 shots).

His defense is very inconsistent, but he can put some points up. And I like his versatility as a backup PF and as a backup SF for limited minutes.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
10:27 am

…Whatever, I’m just happy I finally understand how all of this Contract CBA stuff works. Now I don’t have to scroll past it like it’s just jibberish anymore

ILL-logical

June 19th, 2009
10:30 am

The annual Josh stories are a by product of the larger issues of power and control within the organization.There is a faction that simply wants him gone and there are those who wish otherwise. This is the last year for the former group to hold sway.

A simple solution to the short term future(2 years) of the team is to sign Rasheed Wallace as the mobile, outside shooter Woodson’s “system” needs.
There are 3 pluses to this approach:
1. He is cheaper at his stated price of $8 million than either Chris Kaman or Tyson Chandler.
2. He can/has effectively handled both Shaq and dwight Howard in the low post.
3.He fits into the shared view of Sund and Woodson of developing the Hawks around the 2003-4 Pistons model.

The challenges are age and attitude. On the first, play him 25+ a night and on the second maybe the thought of lifting an aspiring hungry team to victory could be sufficient motivation to not only spur his on court performance but to have him share his experience with the his teammates as well. He has always benn regarded as an excellent teammate throughout his NBA travels. Additionally, he and Flip have played together and Woodson was a coach on the championship team.

Last, having Josh and Al play the 3 and 4 under this senerio will take some adjustment time. they can play 20 plus at their new slots and the remainder in other positions as they and the team adjusts to their new roles. now Marvin or his replacement comes off the bench and can provide the front court firepower that Pietrus does for the Magic.And that makes Flip more valuable because he doesn’t have to be the only offensive threat off of the bench.
Just a thought.

Mike is back

June 19th, 2009
10:38 am

MannyT, been meaning to ask u had u had a chance to see Chamique Holdsclaw since she came back…I know she been out for a while… I have wanted to see Holdsclaw since they said she was coming back. I’m hearing the most buzz about Angel McCoughtry out of Louisville…they say she’s a BALLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My pumpkin and me are going to check them out. I hear they are off to a much better start this season. We are planning to catch that Detroit game on the 26th. McCoughtry is out of Baltimore, she looks like the real deal.

RAD

June 19th, 2009
10:51 am

Sekou,

How come the Hawks are talking about the players that they worked out on their website and they won’t allow you to talk about them?

MannyT

June 19th, 2009
10:57 am

Mike I have missed out on my WNBA fix so far. Fortunately, they are streaming & archiving games on the internet. I’ll peek at a few. I see that Holdsclaw is tied for leading scorer, so I guess she still has what it takes to be a force in teh league. They did some work on the roster and look much better off than last year. They must have a very solid front line as well. I see that their dominant center from last year, De Souza, is now starting at PF.

Hoops, I think the trade kicker is one of the few ways a player can exert control over his location. It at least provides a pile of cash if you get shipped off to a place you don’t like.

Compare it to a local example I saw in the AJC about 6 weeks ago. Delta has some job openings because some of the Northwest people said Minneapolis vs Atlanta–we will stay north in a bad economy without a job rather than move to Georgia. Pro athletes, don’t get to make that choice. Essentially because they cannot get a comparable job anywhere else in the country if they choose not to move for work (i.e. accept a trade.)

Sautee I would not stay away for long, but I cannot work the endless supply of draft, trade and free agent options between May and July. I think I’d rather worry about the quality of BBQ at the Stone Mountain Village BBQ Festival this weekend.
http://stonemountainvillage.com/bbq/index.html

Ariose you confused me. All the BYC talk determines how you match salaries for trades. It has nothing to do with how much the teams actually pay the players. We would not have to pay 1/2 of anyone’s salary unless they played here for 1/2 of a season.

I do agree with you and Melvin, Josh dominates most of the talk on the blog and in the arena. He should grow a beard and tell all of us to stay thirsty

BWAF

Big Ray

June 19th, 2009
11:06 am

Astro Joe,

I sure hope not. But since we’re on the subject of bashing.

I got one for y’all.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
11:11 am

MannyT, Exactly thats what i’ve been trying to say. I’ve probably been using the wing terminology but I was referring to how much of josh’s Yearly Salary gets subtracted(1/2 like you just said) as far as matching teams for trades is concerned.

If we were to trade JS(hypotheically speaking) instead of him beang worh 11mill on our end(as fas as mtching salaries is concerned) he would be worth more like 5mill under the BYC.

So lets say we wanted to trade Smoove for Shawn Marion(let’s just say his contract is worth exactly 11 mill) the raptors have coverd their end b/c they have to match for Josh’s Full Yearly Salary right? While the hawks would have to add more players to mke the salaries work Ex: Throwing in speedy’s (5.6mill) and Randolph’s (800K) would hypothetically make bothe sides even correct?

Please let me know if i’m wrong. I’m not tying to beat a dead hore….um….Horse to death here I just want to be able to comprehend this stuff whenever you guys decide to spark up a financial debate(not that I would chime in on the matter or anything……we just currently have nothing better to talk about, so I figure now is as good a time as any to learn before free agenchy heats up) again.

I MUS WRITE

June 19th, 2009
11:13 am

HMMMMM -Intresting Washington is looking to cut payroll- I guess the rumor is AC/Speedy/19th for Stevenson/Songaillia/#5 …. Pull the trigger on that deal and get Tareke Evans or Johnny Flynn

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
11:15 am

*Wrong

*being

*Worth

*covered

*Both

*agency

yes i’m lazy……I just keep right on typing…..sue me……nire, not really

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
11:19 am

I.Mus, Stevenson sucks. He can’t dribble and he has a bad Back and knees. Songaila on the other hand, would be a decent backup Power Forward though.

How about speedy and Randolph for songaila?

Astro Joe

June 19th, 2009
11:21 am

I.MUS, impossible that Wizards would trade #5 and change for #19 and a little more change. Yeah, they may be trying to dump salary or find a vet for the #5 pick, but that trade that you mentioned sounds more like the wishes of a Hawks fan as opposed to a rumor. A trade rumor, in theory, should come from a team’s front office. The one you just mentioned sounds like something written by a Hawks fan on RealGM.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
11:29 am

Manny, I was getting confused yesterday b/c I thought that under BYC Rules The opposing team would only have to match Josh’s depreciated value(due to BYC). So instead of Toronto Matching the full 11mill(which is around the amout Josh will be earning each season) I thought(past-tense) that they would only have to match 5mill(Josh’s depreciated value under BYC terms….or 1/2 of his yearly salary as you like to say).

I hope that’s better, I probably should’ve not been lazy and just explained it like that from the beginning….but it’s too troublesome if you ask me. I wasn’t that serious about the topic anyway lol. Just wanted to learn something new.

Hoops

June 19th, 2009
11:35 am

Josh is staying. Period. O’kay, offer Acie and the #19 pick for a pick between #6 – #10. Pick T. Evans with that pick to back up JJ and for insurance if he walks next year. Sign Sessions. Resign Flip, Marvin, and Zaza. Sign Rasheed and Charlie V. This team is really strong:
PG-Sessions, Flip
SG-JJ, T. Evans
SF-Marvin, Mo Evans
PF-Josh, Charlie V.
C-Rasheed, Horford, Zaza

If you can’t afford one of these players, then don’t resign Zaza. I think that team can make a run! What do you think?

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
11:39 am

…and I don’t know how or why I go into talking about other teams paying a portion of Smoove’s salary lol. That’s not what I meant of course heh…..Sigh, back to my links!!!! Now that I understand heh.

Reggie

June 19th, 2009
11:40 am

Sekou

What are the chances that the hawks might move up in the draft since points guards Ty Lawson stocks seems to be rising?

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
11:41 am

How about we offer the 49th pick instead of the 19th? We can potentially get someone good there……Ellington, Hansbrough, Mills, Maynor, Lawson?????

Big Ray

June 19th, 2009
11:43 am

To hell with the #19 pick.

To HELL with it, I said. We don’t need it. Well, we don’t need it DIRECTLY.

Every time we talk about a draft pick, it’s “What does Woody think?” or “Woody won’t play them”. There are two basic opinions (aren’t there always?) about this: 1) We need to pick somebody who can play for us right away, and possibly replace a starter, and 2) We likely won’t even get a rotational player with that pick.

Fact is, nobody in the draft excites me. Not even the “heralded” Blake Griffin excites me. I mean, remember how good Michael Beasley was? Impressed with his play this year? Just sayin’….Oh he’s gonna be good, especially after turning in Marvin Williams numbers his FIRST YEAR, but he was no earth shaker.

And if that’s what you get with a high lottery pick, then what do you get at #19? Somebody the GM thinks might be good in 4 years, and we all know coaches don’t coach for today (especially if they are as terrified for their job as some of us say).

Several people note that after Griffin there are a ton of question marks. There are question marks surrounding guys who are supposed to be Europe’s version of Steve Nash, and around guys that we can’t decide if they are the next Mutombo, or the next Manute Bol. After that, more question marks, fewer exclamation marks and a whole of ………………

So trade the damn pick. Trade it with Speedy’s expiring contract that may or may not be picked up, in large part, buy some insurance company. Yes, I read that on a sports web site, let’s not start that $hit again about what’s reliable and what’s not. Fact is, Speedy’s contract expires in a year, and we’re not going to make use of him…and he’s ready to move on anyhow. He was quoted as saying so. Take it from the horse’s mouth, or call him a liar, makes no difference to me.

Anyway, trade that and the pick for….NO, not a higher pick.

Trade that for Jarrett Jack. Why? Two main reasons. One, if we want to re-sign Bibby, we still need a Yin for his Yang. We shouldn’t be trotting him out there for 34 or 35 mpg. Maybe more like 28 or so. Plus, Jack can play alongside Bibby if we go with such a lineup. And he’ll play better defense than either Bibby or Flip. Jack has poise. He’s tough. And he can play with smaller, defensively challenged pgs.

Two, we are not guaranteed to re-sign Bibby OR Flip. Oh sure, we can talk all day about the likelihood thereof. We can spout all kinds of numbers to “prove” the idea that one or both guys will be back in Hawks uniforms in November, and how it will be so hard for other teams to get ahold of them.

Look. Other teams are already scrambling, trying to think of ways to retain the free agents they have, that they need, or trying to find ways to replace them.

Teams like Indiana would probably be interested in an expiring contract (and a short-term replacement for Jack), plus an additional draft pick. Why not?

And remember. The truth is that as it stands right now, we have ONE point guard under contract. Like it or not (or like HIM or not), that’s the fact. Now, planning for the worst case scenario is how you typically manage to avoid it. We need answers at the point, and those answers are not in the draft. Nor are there answers for the frontcourt.

Forget the pick. Trade #19 and Speedy, and get the hard-nosed Jack, who can play a bit of 2-guard when needed. He’s great insurance if we manage to lose Bibby. Do you really want to be stuck running Flip at the point? No, he’s best as a sixth man, or first shooter off the bench. How about Law? Yeah right.

Jack is a true point. Let’s go get him.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
11:48 am

Let’s Play a Game!!!!

It’s called What Would Billy Do.

What do you thin BK would do with the 19th and 49th picks?

19-Chase Budinger(b/c he’s such a sucker)

49-Garrett Siler: I think he actually gets that one right. He’s usually pretty good with his second picks.

Of course there will be no draft day trades because well, he’s Billy.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
11:50 am

ummm damn ray, and right after I tried to start a game involving the 19th pick lol!!

What a KillJoy, sheesh

terrell barron

June 19th, 2009
11:56 am

Siler says he’s getting the most interest from Miami, Houston, and Atlanta.

terrell barron

June 19th, 2009
11:57 am

Timberwolves to interview Mark Jackson, Mike Fratello, and Sam Mitchell. I’d take EITHER of those guys over you know who.

Clyde

June 19th, 2009
11:58 am

What has gotten into Ray? Maybe its the heat.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
12:01 pm

I’m starting to think we need to play it safe and Just draft Hansbrough as a Backup PF lol……

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
12:04 pm

Ray,

Jack is an RFA like Marvin. That means two things. First, he can’t be traded until July 1 (and maybe even July 10/15…not entirely sure) because he’s considered a free agent for trade purposes.

Second, even after July, he’s a BYC for sign-and-trade purposes. That means assuming he re-signs for $6M or less, his cap number from the Hawks’ perspective would be fine, but his cap number for Indiana would be only $3M because of BYC. That means that Indiana would be unable to trade him for Speedy’s $5M contract because that would break the cap restrictions for trades.

The only feasible ways we could get Jack are either by working out a convoluted 3-way trade involving a third team that’s under the cap (and there are only 4 to choose from) or by offering him some or all of our mid-level and hoping the Pacers don’t match.

#21=Top50,1stBallot

June 19th, 2009
12:04 pm

Ray,

False. To trade the pick just to acquire a vet is dubious. The squad did not have any picks last year and if we do not draft this year we are setting ourselves up for long term failure. Even late 1st rd have value- if for no other reason than to be (hopefully at worst) rotation players on cheap contracts. In two years we might well have Smoov, Duck, Al all on their second contracts- that won’t be cheap. This is in addition to everyone having already added some star’s contract for actual scoring- be it Joe or whomever. The problem with our team largely was our lack of rotation. That’s what young players are for- Courtney Lee, Dahntay Jones, Shannon Brown, Big Baby, Kleiza, etc. This is not a star draft, but there will be solid role players to be had, for cheap. We should take advantage.

RISE UP

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
12:04 pm

*$3M or less

terrell barron

June 19th, 2009
12:05 pm

Budinger? That pick might overtake Shellhead as BK’s worst. Budinger is as soft as tissue. lol!!

terrell barron

June 19th, 2009
12:08 pm

Ariose, Hansborough wont be there. I see him going to Detroit. Dumars HAS to play it safe this year after the AI for Billups debacle.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
12:17 pm

TB, Yeah Budinger is soft. He got OWNED on the glass when they played Gonzaga this season by none other than Austin Daye LOL!!!!

You’re probably right about Hansbrough. Well that leaves Ellington, and a bunch of PG’s…

HawkKingBibby

June 19th, 2009
12:24 pm

SEKOU I AGREE WITH YOU 100% JOSH SMITH IS A HAWK AND WILL BE ONE THIS SEASON. Chad Ford is clueless. As for the workouts or just the Hawks interest in general on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being very high and 10 being no friggin way, are the Hawks looking at taking Derrick Brown at 19?

doc

June 19th, 2009
12:25 pm

nire, there you go again with details. i agree with ray in the grand scope of things. we arent going to play any 19 pick, so if it isnt jack insert someone else from the source that has all the names of folks without rfa or ufa on them. work a trade to get someone to insert into the line up that plays defense and can serve up marvin (if we keep him), jj, josh, al and hit the occasional three to keep folks honest. we have plenty of fire power if used correctly which a shooting guard wont and cant do. if we keep bibby then dont complain when marvin, josh and al have deflated numbers. you cant score if you dont get the ball where you need it or dont run the break. those three are just wasted and expected to play the defense the guards wont.

Hawksfanatic

June 19th, 2009
12:29 pm

Sekou, I am not trying to trade away Josh or anything like that. I am just trying to help out everyone who is confused with BYC and trade restrictions from ROFR on Josh. It appears someone (either you or your source) is mixing the two incorrectly. BYC has nothing to do with strict trade restrictions, its status wears off June 30th for everyone and is a status that can’t be just written into a contract. It is a status that is given to you when you receive a large pay increase in salary usually stemming from when a team uses Bird Rights. This should not be confused with the strict trade restrictions on Josh from his offer sheet being matched.

You are right Josh isn’t going anywhere, but its not because of BYC. Currently its because after the Hawks used their Right of First Refusal and cannot trade Josh without his consent of a full year (this is where you get the mid-August date, but it isn’t for BYC). Josh also isn’t going anywhere because of the reasons you mentioned. I posted in an effort to correct your confusion (and other posters) on BYC.

doc

June 19th, 2009
12:34 pm

manny t just saw your post earlier talking about discussing picks vs. picking your teeth afer good bbq and corn on the cob (ok i added that for emphasis). agree and much prefer the latter. in the mean time ….. on with the entertainment.

O'Brien

June 19th, 2009
12:35 pm

Ray,

The Hawks might be better of renouncing Bibby, and then signing Jack to an offer sheet (my guess is 4 years, $20 mil). Sund just needs to word the contract in such a way to scare Indy from matching (since they’re already paying TJ Ford and Jamaal Tinsley). And then resign Flip to be our super sub.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
12:36 pm

doc,

I don’t disagree with the principle. But Woody’s offensive “system” does not make too many allowances for ball movement. The only way I could see Woody moving away from the ISO-oriented offense where no one moves away from the ball is if we sign Steve Nash (ie a veteran PG who Woody would have to respect and who would DEMAND that the offense have more motion).

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
12:37 pm

And…oh yeah…we don’t have the cap room to sign Steve Nash. Oops.

Astro Joe

June 19th, 2009
12:38 pm

Isn’t Jarrett Jack an RFA, meaning that he can’t be traded until after 7/1?

Speedy, Evans & #19 for Hinrich?

Sign Quinton Ross as that cheap perimeter defender and get Marvin back in here. Oh and add Flip, Villanueva and cheap guys like Magloire/Ratliff/Foyle and Royal Ivey/Kevin Ollie. Keep Acie and Othella Hunter. Bench looks like Acie, Flip, Ross (he won’t play more than 8 minutes a game), Villanueva and Magloire/Ratliff/Foyle. Ivey/Ollie is always activated while Hunter and RandMo get to take turns wearing a suit. 2nd round pick (Siler) goes to NBDL. Keep 15th roster spot open.

That is a team the ASG can actually afford.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
12:51 pm

O’Brien,

I actually think that’s far more likely. If we make full mid-level offer sheets to Jack, Sessions, and Villanueva (that would be my order of priority), you can bet that Indiana or Milwaukee will refuse to match at least one of them. And those would be moves I could get behind. Same with Chris Andersen in Denver – and that would have the added bonus of giving Woody a heart attack within 30 minutes of training camp…

terrell barron

June 19th, 2009
12:55 pm

The 2005 draft at 2:00 on NBA TV. Lets take a trip back to memory lane. Will we take Marvin again? lol!! Just kidding.

O'Brien

June 19th, 2009
1:32 pm

nire

I agree. Plus having a PG like Jarret Jack would help Josh, Al and Marvin, because Jack wont take as many shots as Bibby, he plays much better defense (JJ wouldnt have to guard PG’s), and he is more of a penetrator than Bibby is. And he’s cheaper. It sounds like a win win to me.

My only concern with Sessions is that he is a .220 3pt% shooter. That being said, Marvin improved his stroke tremendously in one offseason, so maybe Sessions can do it too.

One thing to keep an eye on in Milwaukee, is what do they do with their pick. If they take a PG, that might suggest the chances of Sessions leaving are greater, because they would still have Luke Ridnour and their PG prospect.

However, can the Hawks afford to sign a starting PG at $5 mil, Charlie V for $5 mil, and still resign Flip and Zaza?

doc

June 19th, 2009
2:02 pm

durn nire there you go with the details again, nash is perfect. heh heh

ob in case you didnt notice you put it better but i just said that in my note above about the type guard we could use to max what we have if acie wont be allowed to do it.

cp

June 19th, 2009
2:05 pm

In the second round I would take Jodie Meeks. Guy can score in bunches plus is a great free throw shooter. He could be a cheap replacement for Flip if he wants more than what the team is willing to pay. The more I look at Derrick Brown the more I would love to draft him. I think he might end up being better than some guys going higher in the draft. This is going to be a crazy draft. I expect to see a lot of trades and draft picks sold.

Melvin

June 19th, 2009
2:06 pm

Big Ray,

Tell us how you really feel…lol

Aroise,
MannyT is the only guy I know that can speak French in Russia…:)

Nire,
If we renounce Bibby’s rights, how would that help the Hawks (i.e. how much cap space would that create)?

Cowa

June 19th, 2009
2:10 pm

To the capologists out there, since we signed Flip to a 1 year deal last year, if we resign him, doesn’t he come out of the MLE, since we are WAY over the cap without renouncing our rights to just about everybody? The reason I bring this up is I don’t think it’s possible currently to sign Flip at even $3.5M (even though he was our own player) AND sign another FA/RFA such as Sessions, Villanueva, Miller, etc. if the total is greater than the MLE.

If this is true, then we are really backed into a wall this summer. If signing Flip is a necessity, then he IS basically our FA signing. And that would leave us with Flip as our starting PG, which I don’t feel is a position we want to be in, especially if it also means we can’t sign players at other positions for more than $1-2M.

Lastly, I thought that a team could only use the MLE every other year. Were we over the cap last year when we signed Mo, and did his signing come out of the MLE?

The reason I bring all this up is I see suggestions on this board and others constantly saying to bring back Flip, then sign tow other FA’s that each would get offers over $4M, and I just don’t think it’s feasible.

Any clarification from the capologists (or Sekou) would be greatly appreciated!

doc

June 19th, 2009
2:11 pm

nire said: …. the added bonus of giving Woody a heart attack within 30 minutes of training camp…

heh heh ditto that concept.

O'Brien

June 19th, 2009
2:14 pm

I wonder how much it would cost to resign Flip? He signed for $1.5 mil last year. Would he be happy with a 2 year deal, $2.5 (or $3) mil per year with a team option for the 3rd year?

Josh

June 19th, 2009
2:28 pm

Why do you all argue , This is a tean mired in a court battle and as long as Belkin is attached the Hawks won’t spend over the tax because he’s Donald Sterling east. Reality folks they’ll ship Claxton and the 19th pick for a future pick and probably let Marvin and Mike walk while replacing them with Flip and Mo. This team isn’t comitted to winning just getting by. In a year they’ll Joe walk and sat it’s to let Josh Smith grow. WHY CAN’T THE HAWKS BE OWNED BY ARTHUR BLANK CHECK OR MARK CUBAN UGH!!!!!!

Tom Glavine

June 19th, 2009
2:53 pm

Stay thirsty, my friends.

Suckers.

Big Ray

June 19th, 2009
3:31 pm

Teams can agree to terms all they want. But pen can’t hit paper until after the moratorium. The League office will see plenty of deals on paper, requesting League approval. And many of them will have been worked out before July 8th.

So Jack is a RFA. Well, fine. Then package the pick and Speedy’s contract for another useful/useable veteran that can help us, who DOESN’T fall into the category of “can’t trade ‘em until whenever” crowd.

Or….perhaps you can still do the deal. Instead of trading the pick, trade the person who is picked. Can we not pick the person Indy wants, then ship their rights, plus Speedy to that team for the guy we want? I almost hate to use the word “rights”, seeing as how it seems to elicit a bunch of detailed chatter that I just don’t want to hear right now (pardon my complete lack of patience, but it’s been a long week).

If not, then co-sign Astro Joe, and gimme Hinrich (yes, I know we’ve already been over this a million times).

But, I’d just as soon have Jack. Make it happen. Get Sessions if you can.

Renounce Bibby? What’s to renounce? I thought he was an unrestricted free agent? Just don’t f’in sign him if you want to go in another direction. Does everything have to be so flippin’ complicated?

Astro Joe

June 19th, 2009
3:35 pm

Ray and this is just basketball. Imagine trying to get a healthcare bill passed. YIKES!

Big Ray

June 19th, 2009
3:35 pm

Niremetal,

Isn’t making full MLE offers to three different players a bit risky? Surely you must mean one after the other…

O’Brien,

That’s exactly why I like Jack. He may not be as deadly as Bibby (when Bibby is hot, that is), but he can hit the trey here and there.

Sessions may not be a good 3-point shooter, but that’s not his game. I do think he can improve that part of his game, as long as his stroke is solid/something that can be worked with. We do still have Mark Price around here, do we not?

Big Ray

June 19th, 2009
3:38 pm

Astro Joe,

I hear ya…

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
3:40 pm

Mel,

The cap will be somewhere between $55M and $58M. I’ll run under the assumption it’ll be $57M. If we renounced all our UFAs (Bibby, Flip, and Zaza) and Marvin, our cap figure would be ~$42M (all the players under contract for next year + the $1.14M cap hold for our first round pick), which would place us ~$15M under the cap. But assuming we aren’t retarded and so make a qualifying to Marvin, that places our cap figure at $55M (his cap hold amount is essentially the max salary for a post-rookie scale contract player since he was drafted so high). So for all intents and purposes, that alone would place us over the cap, since the amount of our cap space would be less than the amount of the mid-level exception, and since teams are not allowed to combine cap space with the mid-level for the purposes of signing any player. See Q30 on Coon’s FAQ.

I said this all a month ago, but I’ll say it again – we are operating this summer with zero cap space to play with. If we want to sign free agents, we have the mid-level, the bi-annual, and that’s it. Beyond that, we’ll have to make trades in order to add players.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
3:51 pm

I actually misspoke, but the cap situation is actually even tighter than I thought – to get our cap number down to $44M, we would have to renounce every single one of our free agents AND renounce our mid-level and bi-annual exceptions. Even then, we would be given cap charges equal to the minimum rookie salary (~$500k) for 4 roster spots, since the minimum size of an NBA roster is 12 (since we’ll only have 7 players under contract + our first round pick).

See Qs 14 and 21 on Coon’s FAQ to see all that.

So basically, if we renounce every single free agent (including Marvin and Chill) AND all of our exceptions, we’d have about $11M in cap space. And I’m actually not entirely sure we can fully renounce Marvin and Chill like that.

As I said, we basically have no cap space to play with, because we don’t want to lose all our leverage with every single free agent we have.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
3:53 pm

Big Ray,

That’s exactly what I meant – make one to Jack. If the Pacers match, make one to Sessions. If the Bucks match, make one to Villanueva. We obviously aren’t allowed to make a mid-level offer sheet to more than one player, since we only can spend the mid-level once.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
3:55 pm

Big Ray,

What we “renounce” by renouncing Bibby is the right to go over the cap to re-sign him. If we renounce Bibby, Zaza, and/or Flip, they would be treated like other teams’ free agents for our purposes – i.e. we could only sign them using cap space, the mid-level exception, or bi-annual exception.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
4:12 pm

Whoops, we have no Bird rights in Flip. So if we want to keep him, we have to use all or part of one of our exceptions…damn. That makes it much harder to both keep Flip and do much else…

SLAM ONLINE | » Links: Looking Back at the 2009 Postseason

June 19th, 2009
4:26 pm

[...] A few people swore up and down on blogs and in the comments section on AJC.com that I was wrong about Josh’s BYC status. I wrote that it ended in mid-August, one year from when [...]

SLAM ONLINE | » Links: Looking Back at the 2009 Postseason

June 19th, 2009
4:26 pm

[...] A few people swore up and down on blogs and in the comments section on AJC.com that I was wrong about Josh’s BYC status. I wrote that it ended in mid-August, one year from when [...]

Melvin

June 19th, 2009
4:42 pm

Nire,

Thanks for the explanations. With zero to limited cap space, I think that put more emphasis on moving Speedy.

Now, do anybody knows if Devin Harris is a FA?

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
4:46 pm

…but just think how scrwed other teams are. We were reported to be one of the few teams with space, so you know everyone else is hurting.

Also, how is all of theis a problem. If i’m not mistaken, we can sign OTHER free agents and gut up to the cap, before going OVER to sign our own agents(bird rights). Do we REALLY have to…..all I know is that if you check draft express we have only 40mill signed for next year. Sign some free agents and then sign our own guys. I really don’t think it has to be that complicated.

Theres no need to sign our own guys or re-up on their rights or whatever until we sign the necessary free agents. Marvin/Bibby arent going anywhere. They said they wanted to be here so i’m sure they’ll wait until Sund handles his business b4v making a move.

Of course this is me going back to my non-complicated non technical way of looking at this crap..um…cap heh, I’ve had enough of the other way…

chuckw/deadjournalist

June 19th, 2009
4:52 pm

I know the focus has been on point guard, but with all the buzz coming out of N.O. about cutting salary, a straight swap of Claxton for James Posey would work. Could N.O. get more for Posey? Maybe, but with deal two years longer than Claxton, they’d save a lot after next season.

Posey would be a very nice addition although his skill set somewhat overlaps with Mo Evans, the Hawks could do worse.

glw

June 19th, 2009
4:56 pm

Melvin,

Devin Harris signed a long term contract with Dallas prior to being traded to New Jersey. I wish he was a free agent though.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/2007-09-13-1215177095_x.htm

NireMENTAL

June 19th, 2009
5:07 pm

the salary cap is 51.375892 million dollars. no I got it wrong it’s 46.391742 million dollars. to sign bibby back to a contract with the Hawks we must renounce zaza and buy him three new pairs of socks. no hold on we have to renounce zaza to the western conference teams only because eastern conference teams are exempt. ah I got it wrong again but I’m still more right than Manny is. actually we have to renounce flip and then we can sign bibby. I think I got it wrong again. let me check larry coon first and I’ll be back. okay I got it now. we have to renounce all of our free agents to sign bibby to a contract. okay and to keep the larry coon rights to josh childress we have to agree to buy him three Greek lapdances every year. that’s what larry coon said. See it in article 14 of subsection 21 of paragraph 3 of category 52 of larry coons works of nba know it all. it’s all there somewhere but I don’t have time to argue about it or look it up and ariose keeps posting links every time I do it and nobody wants to read mine after seeing his. I figured out how to trade josh smith. he has to be traded at 3:51 pm on the third wednsday of october. do it any other time and his trade kicker will come into play with his base year compensation which is indirectly related to the square root of the hypotenuse of the logarithm that governs josh smith’s contract. I told larry coon all of this and he is going to write it down and use me as a source. I don’t need a source for this because I am the source. somebody just told me that larry coon is really manny’s pen name. I have been following manny all this blasted time. that is a total bummer. you guys leave me alone I have to study at the bar.

cp

June 19th, 2009
5:09 pm

Garrett Siler only averaged 7 boards a game in divsion 2? I would probably pass on him. Give me a scorer like Meeks. It might be hard to bring Flip back and he pretty much does what Flip does but is a better free throw shooter.

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
5:13 pm

Thanks, doppleganger . See, this is what happens when they give me the day off of bar review lecture…

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
5:14 pm

Ariose,

Just tried to post a reply to your (and Lang Whitaker’s) stuff. Once Sekou confirms it’s not spam, it’ll go up

MannyT

June 19th, 2009
5:23 pm

Geek post, scroll alert. No offense if this makes your eyes roll to top of head!

niremetal, look at what Lang wrote today on SLAM. He explains why Josh is BYC until mid-August. I am clearly missing something because I don’t get it.

He factors in Josh’s tenure with the Hawks and Bird rights, but he is no longer on his rookie contract.

He says As a result, a bunch of people thought I was wrong about the mid-August date. But according to everyone I spoke to while reporting this stuff, Josh is a BYC guy until mid-August. Why? Because the Hawks have Josh’s Bird rights, because the Hawks drafted him and Josh has been with the Hawks for more than three years. So it runs until mid-August, one year from when he signed the deal, same as Chicago had with Deng, same as Philly had with Iguodala, same as Cleveland had with Varejao.

I hope you get it because I am missing the connection between this and sticking BYC for one year.

I DO UNDERSTAND that the Griz cannot get him for at least a year and the Hawks cannot trade him without his consent for one calendar year, but that is different from how long his BYC status lasts.

Note NBA CBA Article XI, section (5)(g)
(g) After exercising its Right of First Refusal as described in this Section 5, the ROFR Team may not trade the Restricted Free Agent for one (1) year, without the player’s consent. Even with the player’s consent, for one (1) year, neither the ROFR Team exercising its Right of First Refusal nor any other Team may trade the player to the Team whose Offer Sheet was matched.
http://www.nbpa.com/cba_articles/article-XI.php#section5

I wish I could find one of these sources at the draft party next week because one of us got the bottle of Dos Equiis w/o carbonation. We need to figure out who and why. In the mean time…stay thirsty (for the knowledge) my friends!

BWAF

MannyT

June 19th, 2009
5:52 pm

Ariose, you would think that the NBAPA would try to make player movement easier in the next CBA. Especially because they are likely to get a cold dose of fiscal reality in the next deal. If you have less money to go around, the rank & file would probably like to have a better chance at getting some of it. The big stars will always get paid, but the guys in that below MLE pay range might want additional opportunity.

That’s a long way of saying this cap stuff is more complex in the NBA than it needs to be.

BWAF

A Tribe Called Quest

June 19th, 2009
6:53 pm

People are overanalyzing the Hawks’ offseason. We don’t need to fret about this draft…Pick up the best point guard available. If Lyson is anywhere near as good as a very serviceable PG like the former Tar Heel Raymond Felton and we keep Bibby, we are in good shape

1) Draft Lawson or best PG available
2) Resign Bibby for anything less than 8 mill/yr
3) either resign Marvin at a good price or S&T him with Acie and a pick for Jamison or Caron Butler (we need a 20 ppg player who can score 30 on any given night to GO ALONG WITH JOE)
4) MUST RESIGN ZAZA
4) Resign Flip even if you have to overpay.
5) Give Speedy away

So basically you resign Bibby for 7 mill less than last year, Speedy is gone, and Acie is hopefully gone.

THen you sign FA’s to round out the team, hope to God that Mario has learned how to shoot a free throw and a 3 pointer, and make him your 12th man

Recap: Resign Bibby for cheap, sign Marv for cheap (he doesn’t deserve a big contract–he hasn’t improved from year to year statistically), resign ZaZa, Flip, and should have cap space for FA’s.

That will automatically get us to 2nd round next year (Easy should be better). I think we could beat Orlando. Not sure about Boston, and Cleveland overachieved this year so maybe they’ll fall off somehow

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
7:30 pm

MannyT,

I tried to post a lengthy response to Lang earlier, but the Blog Lords thought it might be spam (Sekou – could you see about that? ). I don’t get where Lang’s getting that from either. Here’s my earlier response, stripped of links:

renew nerd alert – scroll!

Ariose,

Also, how is all of theis a problem. If i’m not mistaken, we can sign OTHER free agents and gut up to the cap, before going OVER to sign our own agents(bird rights). Do we REALLY have to…..all I know is that if you check draft express we have only 40mill signed for next year. Sign some free agents and then sign our own guys. I really don’t think it has to be that complicated.

That’s the exact reason why there are cap holds for free agents. Again see Coon’s FAQ, Q31.

Michael Redd was a special case (second round pick with a correspondingly low cap hold). None of our free agents are like that. So we can’t circumvent the salary cap rules by simply signing other teams’ free agents first

As for Lang’s retort today, I think he’s still confusing BYC with Bird rights. They are two separate sets rules governing the same types of players. I’m fully willing to admit I’m wrong if he can point me to something, ANYthing on Coon’s blog or in the CBA that says that BYC rights last for one year. But until I see otherwise, I’ll go with Coon’s FAQ and the plain language of the Collective Bargaining Agreement itself:
A player’s Base Year Compensation shall go into effect on the date the new contract is entered into or, in the case of an Extension, the day following the last day of the Moratorium Period* that precedes the first Season of the extended term and shall expire and be of no further effect on the later of (x) the following June 30, or (y) six (6) months following the date the Base Year Compensation goes into effect.

(* The moratorium period is the week or so starting on July 1 (last year, it was July 1-7) during which teams couldn’t sign free agents, etc, so that doesn’t affect the June 30 expiration date of BYC rules)

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
7:32 pm

Whoops, forgot to re-format. Here’s the “copy-and-paste” portion of that post again:

renew nerd alert – scroll!

Ariose,

Also, how is all of theis a problem. If i’m not mistaken, we can sign OTHER free agents and gut up to the cap, before going OVER to sign our own agents(bird rights). Do we REALLY have to…..all I know is that if you check draft express we have only 40mill signed for next year. Sign some free agents and then sign our own guys. I really don’t think it has to be that complicated.

That’s the exact reason why there are cap holds for free agents. Again see Coon’s FAQ, Q31.

Michael Redd was a special case (second round pick with a correspondingly low cap hold). None of our free agents are like that. So we can’t circumvent the salary cap rules by simply signing other teams’ free agents first

As for Lang’s retort today, I think he’s still confusing BYC with Bird rights. They are two separate sets rules governing the same types of players. I’m fully willing to admit I’m wrong if he can point me to something, ANYthing on Coon’s blog or in the CBA that says that BYC rights last for one year. But until I see otherwise, I’ll go with Coon’s FAQ and the plain language of the Collective Bargaining Agreement itself:
A player’s Base Year Compensation shall go into effect on the date the new contract is entered into or, in the case of an Extension, the day following the last day of the Moratorium Period* that precedes the first Season of the extended term and shall expire and be of no further effect on the later of (x) the following June 30, or (y) six (6) months following the date the Base Year Compensation goes into effect.

(* The moratorium period is the week or so starting on July 1 (last year, it was July 1-7) during which teams couldn’t sign free agents, etc, so that doesn’t affect the June 30 expiration date of BYC rules)

Blast

June 19th, 2009
7:45 pm

Nice to see an end to that Josh Smith rumor crap. See how dangerous rumors are? And ESPN analysts?

Newkid brought up an interesting thought. By Hawks allowing the Grizzles to dictate Josh’s contract in that offer sheet, Hawks kinda boxed themselves in a corner. The trade kicker does seem favorable to Hawks, though.

We forget that one reason Mike Bibby ‘appears’ to play bad defence is because of that horrible switching defence the Hawks employ? It works against smaller teams, but how many times in the playoffs did we see Hawks switch only to find Bibby face up against LeBron or a center? And Woody refused to stop that switch, and Hawks got burned over and over.

O’Brien doesn’t want Bibby because he plays bad defence, but he wants Charlie V who O’ Brien says can score, but can’t defend. Isn’t that the same charge he levied on Bibby?

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
7:56 pm

We forget that one reason Mike Bibby ‘appears’ to play bad defence is because of that horrible switching defence the Hawks employ? It works against smaller teams, but how many times in the playoffs did we see Hawks switch only to find Bibby face up against LeBron or a center? And Woody refused to stop that switch, and Hawks got burned over and over.

I could be wrong, but I think you’re getting it backwards. One of the reasons we often play switching on all screens (which is something I’ve noticed a lot more since Bibby arrived) is that Bibby is a step behind on getting around screens. That being said, I’ve never understood why the defensive approach to screens isn’t “switch on all screens EXCEPT when the screen is on the man Bibby’s guarding. In that case, double the guy with the ball until Bibby is back in position, then have the help defender switch back.”

rms

June 19th, 2009
8:18 pm

Why should I trust any of the Hawks scouts and coachs evalating players and potential draft picks after the past few seasons they have muffed up their previous draft picks….

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
8:20 pm

Manny, Lol, Derrick Fisher needs to quit sippin champagne and get his butt in gear B/C i’m sure he fits in that MLE range somewhere too.

I beleive you like to refer to this stuff as Good Fiscal CRAP Hehehee….

Nire, thanks for the explanation, I’ll go look up FA cap holds in Coon’s refrence.

Also, Sometimes you gotta break up your post if the sensor gods keep eating it lol. They did that to me yesterday. I had to post my response paragraph by paragraph. Eventually I found out that it was ONE little sentence that was keeping my whole post from being shown.

Sekou, you really gotta go have a talk with your IT buddys over at AJC and straighten this thing out lol.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
8:26 pm

“wish I could find one of these sources at the draft party next week because one of us got the bottle of Dos Equiis w/o carbonation. We need to figure out who and why. In the mean time…stay thirsty (for the knowledge) my friends!”

He IS MannyT, “The Most Interesting Man In The World” lol

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
8:36 pm

Link:

http://hawks.portspaces.com/post/hawksbasketblog/fridays_predraft_workout_report.html

If you guys haven’t been keeping up with Micah heart’s basketblog over on the Hawks Official Website you’re missing out.

He’s been bringing in local beat writers/bloggers who cover the players that are being drafted. He’s got tons of player draft updates over there so check it out.

He’s also posting Draft Workout updates to you’ll wanna check that out too.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
8:39 pm

“Ellington showed the touch that made him such a crucial part of North Carolina’s NCAA-title run this past March. One drill at the end had the players shooting from distance, stepping back a foot after each made basket (and getting only 3 shots from each spot) until they missed. Starting from the free throw line, Ellington was able to make it all the way back to half-court, shooting basically his normal shot the entire way. I called it the Joe Johnson drill.”

-Micah Heart

Sekou, Thats why I sad ignore his jumpsot lol. The boy just doesn’t miss. His Ballhandling ability is still suspect though…

Link:

http://hawks.portspaces.com/hawksbasketblog

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
8:40 pm

Looks like the Dum Dums finally figured out that josh Can’t be traded lol.

Link:

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=12993

O'Brien

June 19th, 2009
9:12 pm

Blast,

I dont want Bibby because he will be our starting PG, and he will play 36 minutes per game. Plus JJ will have to guard Bibby’s man sometimes. Also, in my opinion, there are better options available to replace Bibby (restricted FA Jarrett Jack and Ramon Sessions, plus Kirk Hinrich if we could trade for him). I know that part of the problem is Woody’s switching defense, but everybody knows Bibby’s defense is horrible. Teams always drive at him, and JJ usually has to guard Bibby’s man (Paul, Deron, Mo Williams, Harris to name a few). I want a starting PG who can guard his man one on one. Bibby cant.

I like Charlie V to come off the bench (maybe 20 minutes per game)along with Flip. As a bench player, his role is different. Just like Flip, he will be a scorer, plus he can play backup minutes at both PF and SF if needed.

Big Ray

June 19th, 2009
9:32 pm

O’Brien,

I agree. The issue with the switching is defense is that it leaves our low post guys out of position (and guarding a perimeter player) for rebounds. While this isn’t the entire explanation for the number of offensive rebounds we typically give up, it IS part of the problem.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
9:39 pm

Posting Jamelle Hill’s comments about Josh Smith from our twitter Debate we had a few days ago….We ended up coming to common ground on the situation lol.

“and a big-time knucklehead. J-Smoove does not seem interested in maturing his game or becoming a real leader. Move him.”

“Sekou is one of my dearest friends. Gave u my opinion. JJ is not a superstar, but has superstar game. J-Schmoove needs to grow up.”

“ha, you said it, i didn’t. he’s got top-5 talent and a 2-cent head.”

“Don’t question JS’s ability. Question his leadership and desire. Does he want to be another dude collecting a check? So far, yes.”

“Best player can’t be uninterested in not getting better. That’s why the Hawks look like a killa 1 minute, and boo-boo the next”

“Oh, they should have ditched Woodson for Avery Johnson awhile ago. Clearly, he has no chemistry with this team.”

“Even still, the onus is on JJ and JS. JS could be a star, but he settles both with his game & behavior. Younger players watch, copy”

“Marc Jackson would be great, too. He’s a teacher. Would have respect of the players. Great guy.”

“JS just has to grow up. Get a respectable J. Stop complaining. He’s so good he could 1 day be defensive POY. Just has to want it.”

Poop, I debated with Jamelle b/c she always responds back(and will debate/talk about anything) unlinke Skip Bayless, Jalen Rose, Chris Webber, Micah Heart, and sometimes even Mark Bradley. Lang Responds back though lol. Skp is too busy bashing every known sports icon 24/7 and that’s all he wants to talk about. Rose occasionallty will respond. Joe Johnson doesn’t get on enough to respond, he just updates his status evey once and a while(hw said he’s in Miami this weekend). Childress, Zaza, and Speedy Claxton all respond when you tweet them……unless you aks them a loaded question like “between you and me, how difficult is Mike Woodson to deal with?” yup, I never get a response after those lol.

Ariose

June 19th, 2009
9:40 pm

She keeps it real yo….

niremetal

June 19th, 2009
11:18 pm

So…what have we learned about listening to Chad Ford and co.?

Seriously, if you ignore no one else, ignore him. He was also the source on the Josh-for-Amare-being-blocked-by-Belkin BS (say that five times fast)

doc

June 19th, 2009
11:25 pm

ariose, thanks for the heads up.

think woody wouldnt like this type of player?:

The other feature that sets Toney apart is his defensive ability and this will be his key to success in the NBA. For his entire career, he faced some of the best guards in the country night in and night out. For the past two years, he has been named ACC Defensive Team and was the ACC Defensive Player of the year in 2009. He was also named to the Fox Sports All-American Defensive team. This cannot be stressed enough, Toney loves to play defense. He puts as much, if not more, energy into his defense as his offense. He is accustomed to playing man to man defense and enjoys it: “The main reason I think I play good defense is because in this league, there’s a lot of good guards. If you don’t play good defense, you get exposed real quick. It’s a pride thing.”

though no stars there are some intriguing players that will come up when number 19 comes around … who knows josh was 15, rondo 19, so if due diligence done rather than hopeful thinking there could be someone to fill a place on next years roster ready to play and contribute.

doc

June 19th, 2009
11:36 pm

aj, looks like lambier is finally getting some interview time:

“Reports from the region suggest that Wolves are looking seriously at former NBA player Mark Jackson, former head coach Mike Fratello and former WNBA coach and NBA player Bill Laimbeer who recently quit his job with the Detroit Shock.”

if he fails maybe since he isnt with the shock anymore he can come down here and provide a little big man clinics as a coach for our side. it seems he and my boy rick should have some history, wasnt sund with the bad boys as an assistant gm about that time? hope it is good history. maybe he could be considered if things flop here. no. i am not saying anyone should go, only we should have our list ready. heh heh

Ariose

June 20th, 2009
12:21 am

“I could be wrong, but I think you’re getting it backwards. One of the reasons we often play switching on all screens (which is something I’ve noticed a lot more since Bibby arrived) is that Bibby is a step behind on getting around screens. That being said, I’ve never understood why the defensive approach to screens isn’t “switch on all screens EXCEPT when the screen is on the man Bibby’s guarding. In that case, double the guy with the ball until Bibby is back in position, then have the help defender switch back.”

Nire, exactly but we ALL know the real answer to that….Woodson is an……very special type of person heh…

Ariose

June 20th, 2009
1:11 am

Doc, yeah Woody will defenetly give Douglass time as long as he has an offensive game to got along with that defensive prowress. I mean, look at Mario. He still gets minutes, but if he had any kind of jumpshot he’s be getting a lot moe PT.

Ed

June 20th, 2009
3:07 am

Just want to go on record and say the Hawks will take Jeff Teague with the 19th pick if the Bucks don’t grab him @ number 10. He’s definitely the type of PG Woody would at least give a fair shake. He has a terrific outside shot & can create off the dribble.

Clyde

June 20th, 2009
3:58 am

Ariose Jamelle Hill is kinda hot. I need to holla at her about something besides basketball.

FIRE WOODY

KevinA

June 20th, 2009
8:22 am

Josh is beter than AL. They are about the same age. He should be the 1st option, Al the second, Marvin the third, Chills off the bench 4th and JJ 5th. Flip and Bibby should shoot the least. Be better off giving the ball to ZaZa or Solo. Of course If Flip and JJ are driving, I don’t mind. They just jack to many jumpers.

I MUS.WRITE

June 20th, 2009
9:30 am

Astro- It may be just a rumor, but you never know-I’ve seen stranger things happen. I would do it if it ever came to light tho….. Basiclly we give up 2 pg’s that dont ever play and a #19 pick for 2 servicable rotation players and a #5 pick………… Songailia in a good back up big and Stephenson may not have the best handle but he sure does stroke the ball and thats what we need more of _SHOOTERS_

Dam Ray-dont pull your hair man- You want to get rid of the pick but our buddy Sund say’s he’ll find his star through the draft….

MannyT

June 20th, 2009
10:02 am

Every year there is always a good player that slips past the lottery picks. This is true even in years with weak drafts. He may not be a star, but he will be a contributor. Can we get one of those players this year?

Ariose, if we follow you on Twitter, would it be mostly about hoops, video links, Salim Stoudamire or other stuff?

That Micah Hart stuff about Ellington sounds like he’s going to the Cavs so he can wait for LeBron to pass the ball out for easy 3 point shots.

doc, this is what I’d like to see at one of those workouts. I’d call it musical hoops. 5 guys, 1 ball. Just toss it out on the floor. You get it, you get a point. First one to 3 wins. Anyone who gets shut out, doesn’t get draft consideration. I’m thinking I should change the name of the drill to Mario Ball.

BWAF

I MUS.WRITE

June 20th, 2009
10:04 am

We need to get Fohnny Flynn…. I think he is the best point guard in the draft , He’s the best of the crop IMO……… Rubio, Jenneings, Curry, will be good but Flynn is going to be the one…. I dont know wghat we would have to give as far as moving up but i think it would be worth it. Athletic,Nice range, passing and speed…….Sounds similar to the guy down in the bayou

I saw clips of teague and he is impressive-scoring wise but he doesnt pass alot and his defense may be an issue- I wouldnt be upset if he was selected at 19 tho- he reminds me of kevin johnson or barbosa

I MUS.WRITE

June 20th, 2009
10:05 am

Johnny Flynn lol…..need coffee

O'brien

June 20th, 2009
10:12 am

If we get a defensive guy like Toney Douglas, do we still need Mario? (Mo Evans was supposed to be our defensive guy off the bench, but I have not been impressed by Evans).

Did you guys see the rumor that as many as 20 NBA teams might only carry 14 players on the roster next season (to save money)? Why pay a guys hundreds of thousands of dollars if chances are he is never going to play…

Ariose

June 20th, 2009
10:17 am

Ellington is a better shooter than Stevensin right now…..i’m not haitin’ on stevenson. I’m mean he’s so hot he can’t feel his face lol. But, if hansbrough isn’t on the board I say we draft Ellington. Then we can wait for some team to draft the PG that we want and trade either RandMO or speedy for them…..and then draft Danny green with the 49th pick.

Ariose

June 20th, 2009
10:18 am

LOL @ Clyde

Ariose

June 20th, 2009
10:35 am

MannyT, ha! I wouldn’t follow me lol. I doubt i’m that entertaining lol. But theres plenty of guys who fit that bill. Steve Nash, Shaq, Kevin Durant. You can get updates fom anybody on there, friends, celebrities, whomever.

I like it b/c I get the latest hoops articles as soon as they come out b/c I follow ppl like Hoopsworld, Dimemag, Micah Heart, Mark Bradley, Hoopshype, Lang Whitaker etc. etc. they always update you with the latest which is great for a guy with a basketball jones a big as mine heh.

Then you’ve got he classic bigmouths who always get themselves in trouble with their tweets like T.O lol.

Check it out.

niremetal

June 20th, 2009
11:08 am

If for no other reason, the Hawks should avoid Douglas because he’s represented by David Falk. Seriously. That’s one pass to “Urscrewed World” when he comes up for an extension.

Simpdawg

June 20th, 2009
12:51 pm

IF the New Jersey Nets are serious about trading Devin Harris for the 2nd overall pick, then the Hawks should sign and trade Marvin Williams, Speedy Claxton expiring contract and the 19th pick for Devin Harris. The Nets could offer their 11th and 19th picks to Memphis for their 2nd overall pick.

Ariose

June 20th, 2009
1:53 pm

Check out what the NBA T.V guys think the Hawks should do with the 19th and 49th picks.

Link:

http://www.nba.com/draft2009/teams/atl.html

I MUS.WRITE

June 20th, 2009
1:57 pm

Hansborough= Mark Madsen
Hansborough= Luke Walton
Hansborough= Adam Keefe
Hansborough= Unathletic big with no jumper

Tyler- ” hey yall this Tyler i just dont wantAtlanta to make the same mistake they did with Acie. U know thinking I can come in and play well against NBA talent. Y do yall think it took me 4 years to come out, I wont bre able to move guys in the paint the way i did in college. I still have’nt developed my jumper and I see what yall do to Smoove. Sheldon williams is alot better than I’ll ever be -he’s the landlord for goodness sake. I just dont wanna be stuck to the bench like Solo and Morris – Cant wait to get to the NBDL so I can dominae againg like I did in college…. Dont drink my koolaid its got poison in it”

“I.MUS Im better than Madsen dam it”

Ariose

June 20th, 2009
2:33 pm

Hahahahaha!!!!1! ROFLMFAO!!!!!

Blast

June 20th, 2009
3:07 pm

O’ Brien

I do like Charlie V off the bench. Charlie is a prolific scorer that the Hawks can use indeed. Hey, I like Bibby despite his shortcomings, but if Hawks can get someone younger that will put up the same numbers and play better defence, then go for it. My point is Hawks were nowhere and nobody with Joe, Josh 1 & 2, Al, Marvin and Zaza until Bibby arrived the scene. We should not forget that. Mike brings trust, swagger and other intangibles that go above scoring and defence.

That said, if they pick a point in the draft that we know Woody will play, keep and sign Bibby for a lower pay, shorten his minutes, would that work? Of course the new point has to be good AND play with the hope of taking over since the Acie Law experiment has not seemed to work out too good.

O’Brien, I like your other point and I’ve actually thought about it. Why staff your ballclub with 15 players when only 8-10 will actually crack the rotation? Why pay dudes to warm the pine when they will never see serious gametime minutes? I’ve always thought it better for teams to staff their club with the league’s minimum allowed number of players (13?) and go with guys that will actually play and help your club, and you save money at the same time.

Blast

June 20th, 2009
3:18 pm

Something else the ASG might want to consider. We all know Cleveland is actively shopping for All-Star help in other to keep LeBron and win a championship. They are trying to get Shaq this year. Whether that works or not, another rumor has it that come the year 2010, Cavs might seriously pursue Joe Johnson to be the Scottie Pippen to LeBron’s Michael Jordan.

I can see how that will work for Cavs and Joe. Joe is probably better off as the No.2 option on a team that has a superstar like LeBron. The two of them together almost automatically says championship. A pairing like that will almost guarantee a ring for Joe. If that happens, where will that leave the Atlanta Hawks? So as they plan for 2009 roster, I think it’s imperative that they also keep an eye on the 2010 roster also. Long term plans, not short term, ASG.

bigdave

June 20th, 2009
3:42 pm

Sautee… “post skill” exactly…

your June 17 11:21am post is exactly the reason why i make my argument… starting with the pick itself (sure it was a need pick; but AMARE people!!)… and due to the fact that he was not “the man” at UF he will not be “the man” in the league based on what ive seen from him there and here… which is why i would package him vs Josh if such a decision was to be made…

bigdave

June 20th, 2009
3:45 pm

i want value out of that #19

give me a guy that can GET HIS OWN SHOT and DEFEND… Sam Young/Toney Douglas

terrell barron

June 20th, 2009
4:33 pm

Who’s it going to be?
1st rd. Eric Maynor
2nd rd. Jodie Meeks

Ariose

June 20th, 2009
4:40 pm

TB, Meeks over Danny Green in Rd.2?

AB

June 20th, 2009
5:31 pm

Jodie Meeks all the way! He could be a steal!

cp

June 20th, 2009
7:10 pm

I see people are joining me on the Jodie Meeks bandwagon. Ariose the only reason I would take Meeks over Green because I think Meeks can come in here and do what Flip does at a cheaper price. Dude is a big time scorer who shot 90% from the free throw line. Seeing as how bad we were from the line last year it would be nice to have a guy who can come to the line and not have to worry about him missing key free throws… I’m still torn about the first round pick. I liked Sam Young but after watching more film of him I don’t like his jumper at all but at 19 he would not be bad. I would take Derrick Brown over him at this point. I think some guys are going to slide. I wish we could get another late fist round pick or get another second rounder. Right now the guys i’m looking at are Clark, Terrance Williams, Teague, Derrick Brown, and Sam Young with the 19th pick depending on who is there when we go. In the second round I want Meeks or Mc Clinton from Miami. If we could get another late first rounder I would go Derrick Brown and the pg from UCLA, Collison. I think a lot of people are sleeping on him. I want no parts of Tyler Hansbrough or Mullens. I think Lawson is gone way before the 19th pick. I could see him going to the Pacers. This is going to be a crazy draft. I wish we had more picks. That way we could add better talent to our bench for cheap. I would take guys like Meeks, Mc Clinton, Danny Green and a few other second rounders over Randolph and Mario anyday of the week.

Ed

June 20th, 2009
7:16 pm

Either extend JJ or trade him before we lose him and get nothing in return. Go ahead and make a good offer to Marvin…he has much more upside than many here want to give him credit for. He just doesn’t have the attitude to assert himself and demand the ball. Keep Josh, let Bibby walk and pick up a Jarrett Jack type PG. Draft the best player available…as mentioned before someone is going to slip through. The Hawks have to be smart enough to spot that player.

Beautiful Monte

June 20th, 2009
7:22 pm

Why do buffoons like Samuel and Davenpoop-for-Brains equate dog-fighting (which is illegal) with hunting (which is legal)?

Speaking of dogs, does anybody know why Garrett Anderson is incapable of playing hard?

tony

June 20th, 2009
7:39 pm

RIGHT ON Kelvin! Eric Maynor will push the hawks deeper into the playoffs. If he drop to 19 we got to take him. That kid is special.

Hoops

June 20th, 2009
9:27 pm

Simpdawg,

Where did you hear that the nets would trade Devin Harris? Are you serious? We need to jump on that one! Devin Harris is a REAL PG!!! We can’t sign & trade Marvin before the draft. If they trade him for a draft pick, we are sunk! Tell me what you know.

doc

June 20th, 2009
10:46 pm

ok my mind wandered when i took ariose’s advice to check the hawks site.

here is the new team:

http://www.nba.com/hawks/danceteam/danceteam_Main_Page.html

ant banks

June 20th, 2009
10:49 pm

TONY AND KELVIN,

if eric manor is THAT SPECIAL he won’t be available at 19. this is not a great draft class, surely anything at 19 is garbage. can anyone name the last 5 #19 picks?

I will:

08- jj hickson
07- jarvoris crittendidn’t
06- quincy douby
05- hakim warrick
04- dorrell wright

need i say more about the #19 pick? hakim and hickson are the only ones gettin’ some burn. hawks should package this #19 pick with law, speedy, and whoever to get someone who can play day one.

jhan

June 20th, 2009
11:40 pm

Ant Banks – check out the players that were drafted AFTER #19 in the same years you mentioned above. Think any of these guys have special talent? Don’t be so quick to ignore the draft – these guys can play and for much cheaper than a 4-5 year vet.

22-Courtney Lee
23-Wilson Chandler
21-Rajon Rondo
30-David Lee
26-Kevin Martin

ant banks

June 21st, 2009
12:33 am

JHAN,

excellent points, but THIS ISNOT a deep draft class. so i think that the #19 pick and subsequent picks won’t pan out. what do you suggest the hawks do with the 19 pick?

niremetal

June 21st, 2009
12:56 am

I think this draft is a lot like the 2001 draft – not “deep” in the sense of having lots of All-Stars (the only stars from that draft are #3 pick Pau, #10 pick JJ, and #29 pick Tony Parker) but pretty deep in terms of guys who become steady rotation players. The problem is that, like in 2001, there are no “clear-cut” stars.

Blake Griffin is pretty much a can’t-miss prospect, but from 2 to 20 and beyond it’s wide open for a reason. I think most of the guys who get picked in that range will be decent players, and probably 1 or 2 will unexpectedly become a star. There are guys with obvious bust potential – Mullens, Blair (I know some people love him, but come on…a 6′6 power forward whose had two knee surgeries? you have to at least admit that that’s a very risky proposition), and every single point guard (it’s always a crapshoot with point guards). But we can get someone. I’d rather see us stay put and go “best player available” or else trade out altogether. Moving up in the lottery does not appeal to me very much. We shall see…

KevinA

June 21st, 2009
1:01 am

Givin Woody’s developement skills I say we sit the draft out. Other than to trade for a higher pick next year.

A Tribe Called Quest

June 21st, 2009
1:57 am

I have further proof our GM is a clueless idiot:

****Sund says he has a relatively simple strategy for the No. 19 pick in Thursday’s NBA draft. “When picking after the top six, you want to pretty much look at the best player available,” he said this week.***

Eureka!!!

This must be why he took Sene (who?) 10th overall in 2006, ahead of:

Sefolosha, Ronnie Brewer (a starter on a deep Jazz team), Sergio Rodriguez (rotation player), and Boobie Gibson, as well as 10 players better than this scrub. This stiff does not even play anymore.

He took Robert Swift (who has played as many games as Allan Houston’s ghost has in the last 3 years) 12th overall in 2004 OVER:

Al Jefferson (most underrated player in NBA), Josh Smith (future all star coveted by over 20 teams), JR Smith (elite bench scorer), Delonte Herpe West, Kevin Martin, etc…

This guy clearly does not know what he claims.

Sund generates fictitious formulas for winning, such as having 2 superstars or 3 top 10 players at their positions. He picks results of other teams to fit the facts and manipulates things to get where he is trying to be. His draft record is utterly atrocious and his best accomplishment in his illustrious 30 years is trading for Ray Allen and then being “let-go” by the Sonics.

Don’t be fooled by this ignoramus’s faulty knowledge or incompetent draft ability–Rick Sund brought in Mo Evans, heralded by many as a solid role player, but who puts up numbers so anemic that Matt Freije is laughing in his ranch in Indiana. Mo is not even a good defender if you watch closely.

So what do we have here? We have a GM so sure of his formulas for winning but who has not won anything in his career besides a deep playoff berth with his almighty Dallas Mavericks squads of the 90’s. I’ll be damned if anyone here can name 2 players from ANY of his Dallas teams.

Rick Sund

June 21st, 2009
2:22 am

Well, I wasn’t GM of Dallas at the time, BUT Jason Kidd, Jamal Mashburn, and Jim Jackson.

niremetal

June 21st, 2009
2:33 am

It was more the 80’s than the 90’s that he was with Dallas…he was in Detroit from 1995-2001. In any case, he was in Dallas during the Aguirre/Blackman era. That was actually a pretty damned good squad. Probably the second or third best team in West during the 80’s as a whole. Doesn’t speak too badly of him that they didn’t make it deeper in the playoffs back when the West was dominated by Showtime.

Melvin

June 21st, 2009
9:26 am

This debate of who the Hawks should pick at #19 may be useless…

http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20090621/?sub_id=DHxMLImvdvZIx&folio=6

Melvin

June 21st, 2009
9:30 am

Click on the NBA tab at the top of the page. They have an article on the Hawks (page 22)….

http://today.sportingnews.com/sportingnewstoday/20090621/?sub_id=DHxMLImvdvZIx&folio=CGI

Clyde

June 21st, 2009
10:14 am

What time is the draft party?

The Truth

June 21st, 2009
10:28 am

A Tribe Called Quest

Your comment (June 21st, 2009 1:57 AM) is excellent. As I also read the tea leaves, I am beginning to feel the same way.

Let’s hope that we are both wrong. We shall see

Melvin

June 21st, 2009
10:43 am

Tribe,

Did you miss me and some others commenting about Sund resume a few weeks back. Many of us are not impress by his body of work. After 30 yrs in the league, just what has he accomplish besides being employed by the league for 30 yrs. Oh well, we’ll see what he does this summer.

Sorry Nire, I rather have BK at the helm…

A Tribe Called Quest

June 21st, 2009
11:02 am

My bad Melvin…I didn’t check this board for a few weeks.

Just reading that quote I posted at 1:57 AM made me very irate. Sund really does create these baseless formulas for winning. He has not drafted one superstar. If I was 15 years older, maybe I’d know more about Blackman or Aguirre, but those names don’t blow me away.

If Sund can just draft Ty Lawson, resign Bibby for cheap, and S&T Marvin (who is getting his African Studies degree and working out with Sean May as we speak), I will be very happy

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
11:09 am

Doc, That made my day lol! That’s the REAL team right there lol. They should’ve had open tyouts so us loyal fans could watch Heeheehee

Lawson probably won’t be there when we pick. If sund can draft Mills(I think he;s the best anyway), trade into the draft and nab ellington, and then get Danny Green(or Meeks….but getting him means flip won’t be back whereas Green can play SF) it’ll be a good draft. It would be even better if we could nab Kaman w/speedys contract on draft day. I hav no doubt we will see lots of Clipper players changing homes on draft night.

ant banks

June 21st, 2009
11:20 am

QUEST,

i disagree with your total assessment of mo williams. at one point during the season, the hawks were 12-1 with him in the line-up.i think around the time that marvin was hurt.

year before last, when he was with orlando, he lit the hawks up for 25pts!!

ant banks

June 21st, 2009
11:25 am

my concern about the hawks pickin’ #19 is that woody doesn’t do a good enuff job of developin’ the talent. yes, he played chills, marvin, smoove, and horford as rookies, but the point is diff. playin’ the point, you have to allow room for mistakes and growth ie tony parker and rondo made huge mistakes but their coaches allowed them to play thru mistakes.

i don’t see woody allowin the rookie pt to play thru mistakes. flip made tons of miscues, but woody allowed him to keep playin’ because flip is a vet.

A Tribe Called Quest

June 21st, 2009
11:45 am

“i disagree with your total assessment of mo williams. at one point during the season, the hawks were 12-1 with him in the line-up.i think around the time that marvin was hurt.”

Thanks, ant banks. I didn’t realize Mo Williams was on the Hawks this year. And what exactly did he accomplish in the playoffs?

ant banks

June 21st, 2009
11:49 am

QUEST,

i meant MO EVANS. sorry!! um, he didn’t accomplish much durin’ the playoffs, neither did jj. i am jus sayin’ that i think that MO EVANS is betta than you give him credit for

ant banks

June 21st, 2009
11:55 am

i will not be attendin’ the draft party this year. nothin’ about pickin’ #19 excites me, unlike 2yrs ago when we had 2 first rnd picks. lookin’ at the history of the hawks, they will try to get the most BANG for their bucks. i see them spendin’ the very least amount that they can and expectin’ the MOST returns.

i mean who knew that MO EVANS, and flip would be the difference in us goin’ 47 wins. moneywise, the hawks got over this year. they paid flip 1.5 mil and mo evans got 2.5.

i see the hawks tryin’ to replicate this success rather than tryin’ to pay for quality players.

terrell barron

June 21st, 2009
11:59 am

Ant Banks, the last 19 picks in previous drafts have nothing to do with the 19th pick this year. There are a few gems every year. Have faith man. lol! I know it’s hard to, when it’s Woody and Sund pulling the trigger, but you never know. I’m thinking Woody would go BPA, after the Sheldon Williams debacle, but will Sund agree? Intriguing, to say the least.

Big Ray

June 21st, 2009
12:06 pm

I don’t know. A guy who says he laughs at the idea of needing a point guard, and can’t fire Woody, despite several attempts….

I don’t see how it’s better to have HIM than Sund. Now if all you’re talking about is the draft, then there’s an argument. And in that case, it’s more like do you want to have your arm broken, or your leg?

Big Ray

June 21st, 2009
12:09 pm

I can understand the lack of excitement about our 1st round draft pick. However, even if we make a “good” pick, the following issue is how that player performs, and how his development goes. If you think the drafting part wasn’t exciting, just think about what follows after.

Conversely, I get excited about every single pick the Falcons make/made. But then, there is reason to be excited when talking about THAT franchise….

ant banks

June 21st, 2009
12:16 pm

BIG RAY, TERRELL, AND QUEST,

all i am sayin’ is i admire teams like portland, their teams are stacked with quality players!! they have a coach who will let his horses run. they have 4 count them FOUR 2nd rnd picks this year. they can parlay those picks for even more quality players.

i admire boston pullin’ the trigga to get the BIG 3.
i admire detroit for firin’ flip saunders after what seemed like a successful season but it wasn’t good enough for them. also, makin’ a decision about stuckey and billups, albeit a wrong decision.

i jus’ want the hawks to be demonstrative about somethin’!! they don’t make any decision themselves, they let the market or other teams make decision for them, ie jchills and smoove las’ year. when you have others makin’ decisions for you you will neva be right.

kinda like if BIG RAY decided for me, where i would spend father’s day. i may not like the decision that he makes for me, but if i decide my OWN fate, i may enjoy it more.

much love big ray

terrell barron

June 21st, 2009
12:27 pm

No more COMBO guards or forwards please. We need a TRUE pg and a center. Either through the draft or free-agency. It’s just that simple. If Woody cant adjust to a TRUE pg who drives and dishes, then he’s got to go. Period! I’m tired of this ALL BACKCOURT nonsense. All it’s doing is stunning Marvin’s, Horford’s, and Smith’s development. I bet you can count the number of touches they get in a game with one hand. That’s probably why Smoove stands beyond the arch. He knows if he stays inside, Bibby and JJ will play 2 on 5. If Woody would swallow his pride and bring in an offensive assistant, he might just save his job. Idiot!

Big Ray

June 21st, 2009
12:28 pm

Michael Gearon Jr., one of the team’s owners, said in a recent interview “Bibby to me is a young guy.”

Seeing as how I’m 32 myself, 31 neither sounds nor feels old. On the basketball court, it’s a completely different deal. Does Gearon understand this at all, or is this just a one liner taken out of a complete thought or paragraph, for the purpose of making him look like an idiot?

doc

June 21st, 2009
12:31 pm

ray, bibby is the fountain of youth to me, just he doesnt act it on the court most of the time. my eyes dont lie in the mirror or watching from my seats. two different perspectives.

terrell barron

June 21st, 2009
12:31 pm

And when I say offensive assistant, I mean a great offensive mind that has been a head coach in this league. Not another flunky like he has now. No offense to Larry Drew. but this is Woody’s offense, or lack thereof. He’s just a YES man. And like I said before, no offense to Drew. A job is a job.

niremetal

June 21st, 2009
12:41 pm

I withhold judgment until I know the context. All the Googles of that quote just show it in isolation.

Big Ray

June 21st, 2009
12:46 pm

Ant Banks,

Happy Father’s Day!

I’m feelin’ ya on that last post. However, there does not appear to be a single demonstrative person within the Hawks organization. If there is, I sure missed it. At the same time, people will advocate the conservative, cautious, wise/sage approach. Well, I’d feel better about that concept if we were the Spurs or Jazz. At least then you know there is somebody who who’s actually wise and conservative in a smart way. As for Sund, he has something to prove yet.

Terrell,

I agree. An offense that continues to roll with a score-first pg is not going to help our young froncourt get any better. It would be different if we had a Devin Harris or somebody like that. Then, we could go with a big, traditional center who has some post moves. We could still roll with a guy like Marvin at the 3 (though we might want a bit more of a dynamic scorer), and a rugged, dirty work guy at the 4.

Of course, that’s not the kind of lineup we have, but it does NOT mean we shouldn’t make use of the obvious talent we have down low. What can I say, it’s the latest in a long line of equine carcasses that we continue to flail at in vain…

terrell barron

June 21st, 2009
12:47 pm

BJ Mullins supposedly has a promise from Detroit at #15. Thanks Joe D.

Big Ray

June 21st, 2009
12:59 pm

Terrell,

Saw that. And apparently Hansbrough is on the rise as well. Interesting, eh Doc?

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
1:04 pm

I’m just sayin’, if sund can find a way to draft Mills, Ellingon, Hansbrough, and Green(while trading away speedy/Randolph). Then signing back everybody else. This offseaon will have been a success, and we’ll have one of the best benches in the leauge.That will force woodson’s hand (which is what sund needs to do). If Woodson can’t get us to the ECF with 6 NCAA champions on one roster then he has to go.

Big Ray

June 21st, 2009
1:09 pm

Ariose,

I seriously am not trying to be a pain, but HOW is that supposed to happen with the draft picks?

doc

June 21st, 2009
1:28 pm

well not sure where it went … nire and ando, happy father’s day for the newbies to the custom and to everyone else at the liar’s table. make the most of it.

doc

June 21st, 2009
1:33 pm

ray interesting huh? now can you find out what ariose is smoking today. geez, sheriff i think you got a collar on that one or need to get a holding order for the insane.

ariose, there is no way for sund to be a success by those measures dude.

tiger just knocked one dead, glad to see him smile. now only 14 back with 27 holes to go.

terrell barron

June 21st, 2009
1:54 pm

I think Ariose meant, take Ellington, Hansborough or Mills in rd. 1, and Green in rd 2.

terrell barron

June 21st, 2009
1:57 pm

I dont know about ECF Ariose. Cleveland, Boston and Orlando are still going to be pretty good.

terrell barron

June 21st, 2009
1:58 pm

And if Philly gets off to a good start, for a change, they might be pretty dam. good too.

terrell barron

June 21st, 2009
2:02 pm

And let’s not forget about D-Wade and the Heat, and Derrick Rose and the Bulls

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
2:22 pm

tb,

LOL, You sound as shook up as Larry Munson worrying about Vandy.

cp

June 21st, 2009
3:03 pm

Happy fathers day to all the fathers on here..

Lawson will be gone by 19. I don’t see him sliding that far. Patty Mills will be there in the second round. I don’t think he goes in the first. This draft is not as bad as some feel like it is. Its probably better to be drafting in the second half of the first round rather than in the first half. I see a lot of guys going early that wont be that kind of impact player. A lot of teams like Portland and the Hornets are selling picks but I doubt we buy any but it would be nice…

Mo Evans was disappointing to me. He got lit up on defense all year regardless of who he was guarding. That Bibby is young talk makes it seem like we will give him a contract longer and bigger than what we need to. I like the guy and all but giving him a long big contract is not a good idea.

Dashizz47

June 21st, 2009
3:04 pm

I can’t figure out why everyone wants to fire Woody, he’s improved each year, got the team to the second round of the playoffs & the Hawks have done nothing to get this man the quality of players the other top 3 have in this division! What did the previous coaches do! get off the man’s nuts and let’s him coach! As far as the players go Marvin didn’t start for Carolina so what did you think you were getting, bad pick! Acie has to take playing time, no-one in this league’s give’s you anything, it’s not coaches fault it’s Acie’s, get down or go sit down. Perfect example Lee in Orlando took his playing time, Shannon Brown in LA came out there and took his playing time, So if Acie let’s Bibby, Evans, & Flip get his time thats his fault! Not Coach. Cleveland wants their coaches head & look at the season they had, Orlando wants Van Gundy’s head and he got them to the championship, & now ya’ll want Woody’s head! Stop being on the band wagon! Bottom line Hawks need a leader and it isn’t Joe Johnson, I like Joe but he’s not vocal enough to lead this team! How come we don’t go after Shaq….Those jerks up in the front office don’t want to win! Wake up people we’re just another version of the Braves! Woody brought us the hottest ticket in town this year and we’re throwing this man under the bus, are you serious!

Dashizz47

June 21st, 2009
3:27 pm

Trade Josh Smith to Houston for the guard Lowery & T-Mac, trade Marvin to the Clippers for Camby! use the draft pick to pick-up a guard or go after Rafer Alston aka Skip to my Lou. Guards Alston & Johnson, T-Mac, Horford & Camby….ZaZa, Flip, Solo, Evans, Lowery all come off the bench! T-Mac’s number come off the books 2010, go after a nice free agent!

niremetal

June 21st, 2009
3:28 pm

*ding*

doc

June 21st, 2009
3:50 pm

double dog ding nire

funny sautee. seems he forgot indy and new yorks.

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
4:26 pm

Like KG says heh, “Anything is possible” lol. It doesn’t necessarily have to be through picks, OR on draft night. He can trade guys like speedy, or offer some future ist rounders(I doubt we’ll get much higher in the draft in the years coming after this). If he can just get two more picks(buy them off someone) and do some trading(down or up in the draft) it could work.

It’s WAY cheaper thay aquiring a good bench through Free Agency. I think Portland has already proven that over the past few years. Not be necessarily getting “studs” in the draft, but having multiple picks and drafing multiple SOLID players in the same draft(Batum, Fernandez, Bayless etc.).

It’s a numbers game, if Sund has 4 picks, and one turns out to be a dud(I don’t think Ellington,Mills,or Green will be) he’ll likely won’t be crucified b/c of the 3 other picks that are playing decently. Like us in 2004.

Maybe I am smoking somthing, but how hard could it be? Minnesota has 3 pick I beleive. 2 in the first and one in the 2nd. We Buy their 2nd Rd for a future second rounder, and then trade down(or 49th pick) with a team that doesn’t necessarily need something where they are drafting. That way we have a better chance of getting two quality guys in the 2nd round. That’s my logic, flawed as it may be, but if I was a GM you’d probably think of me as the Kevon Pritcherd of the East.

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
4:37 pm

You telling me if we bait a team by trading away speedy(Expiring contract AND he’s healthy….I know NO needs a CP3 backup), ond then trade our 2nd rounder + Randolph you don’t think we could get TWO more pick in a decent position in the draft order? I beg to differ.

Now you guys don’t get all technical and start thowing numbers at me lol. I’m just sayin’ in theory I don’t think it will be TOO difficult. Especially in a draft considred “Weak” by many teams. BTW what is LA gonna do with their 1st RD pick? They barely have enough money to resign Odum and Ariza. I’m pretty sure we can find a way to nab the 30th pick from them. Draft Ellington with the 19th, Get Mills with the 30th, Danny Green with the 49th…..and I don’t know about Hansbrough. We might just have to let him get drafted and then work out a deal with the team who drafted him(Future 1st and 2nd round pick+cash to cover his cap charge that gets added immedately to the teams who drafts him).

Just thoughts…..work with me here fellas…or would you rather discuss Smooves BYC again??? LOL!!

ant banks

June 21st, 2009
4:43 pm

DASHIZZ47,

you smokin’ some good indonesia for father’s day. i ain’t mad atcha!! first, the reason people want to fire woody is because the team won INSPITE of him not because of him. secondly, he failed to develop acie law, solo, randmo, thomas gardner, salim, royal ivey and all the other bench players. he ride his top 7 like a horse. why you think jj avg. 44.8minutes per nite?

and all of your trade proposals are insane. LOL!! (REMEMBER TO puff, puff, pass. don’t mess up the rotation.)

The Truth

June 21st, 2009
4:49 pm

ant banks

What was that? (”puff, puff, pass. don’t mess up the rotation”)

That’s just the laugh I needed!

Melvin

June 21st, 2009
5:11 pm

Ant,

Would it better if he don’t inhale…

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
5:13 pm

CP, If We trade MO Eavns on draft Day also, We will defenetly be able to land Elington, Mills, Hansbrough, and Danny Green……

I like Mo though Great guy, plays hard, but his flaws are very obvious…If trading him gets us better(like the Evans/Ariza trade last year) then i’m all for it.

Dashizz47

June 21st, 2009
5:29 pm

ant banks
develop! the players you just named no other team could develop any of those players, why do you thing they haven’t been picked up by anybody! Solo is the only one worth working with, the rest suck! Oh by the way this is some good ish! I’m smoking….LOL

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
5:30 pm

LOL @ Dashizz, that’s a true comedian right there.

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
5:34 pm

The second we trade Acie Law, he’s going to blow up…..you all know this. The only way to truly see if he sucks is by drafting another PG. IF say Lawson or Mills out performs him(b4 the trading deadlin of course), then we’ll know what the deal is. Think DJ Augustin, that kid was nasty with it as soon as he stepped on the NBA Hardwood.

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
5:49 pm

Maybe we forget about hansbrough and go after RFA Channing Frye instead? I don’t think we have the cap space to pull it off though. We’re better of getting the guys I mentionedin the draft…

ant banks

June 21st, 2009
6:26 pm

ARIOSE,

i like acie law. dude was the truff at a&m, but damn he is a brittle as porcelain. all of those injuries that he has had the past two years. damn!! he couldn’t fight through none of those injuries?

i mean i had a serious papercut. burn everytime somethin’ touched it. but i managed to fight through the pain. my coworkers respect me more now because they saw me fight thru the injury and continue to work. i been promoted to fries now. hope to be to the shake machine by august. LOL!!

seriously, acie stays too, hurt. if kobie can play two seasons with a documented torn ligament in his hand, surely acie can play wit’ a papercut. lol

cp

June 21st, 2009
6:43 pm

Ariose I’m all for trading Mo on draft night. I’m going to look at who is drafting behind us to see who could use a cheap veteran sg and has no use for their low first rounder. Its like you said, Mo plays hard and all but his flaws are obvious. I think at one point during the season he was shooting 30 % to go along with bad defense. If we could add a another low first rounder and a second rounder I think we add better talent to the bench without spending much money so we can bring a guy like Pachulia back. Meeks and Green in the second round or even a Tyrese Rice. The first round is still tricky. I think some guys are going to fall to us.

Dashizz47

June 21st, 2009
6:54 pm

Ariose

If Acie was going to produce we wouldnt be drafting another guard! There’s a reason why if the Hawks don’t sign Bibby they’re looking for another guard! Acie can’t hold that spot, sorry. You don’t hear the Hawks saying if we lose Bibby we got Acie to fall back on! This is why their looking for a Bibby back-up or replacement.

Acie will not sit Flip and Josh and Joe will get there minutes, it’s the make up of this team…It’s not Acie fault, it’s not coaches fault. Unless someone is seriously hurt he will not be a factor.

Hoops

June 21st, 2009
7:18 pm

Acie has been hurt alot. I really think he just needs a fresh start. We should offer Acie and #19 for a pick in the 6-10 range. Maybe take the best player available that is not a PG if the Hawks are planning on resigning Bibby or going after Sessions. I’m sure they will resign Flip. Why should we draft a young PG? Woody will not play him.

cp

June 21st, 2009
7:34 pm

If we are trading up and not getting Flynn then I see no reason to move up at all. The non pg players available in that range might not be better than the guys you can get in the 20’s. Other than Blake I don’t see many guys worth taking in the lottery (non pg’s that is).

RICHIE RICH

June 21st, 2009
7:42 pm

Ariose, I agree with you, we need to get the Laker’s 1st rd pick, they can’t afford to pay a guaranteed contract to a rookie when they want to bring back Odom and Ariza. The Hawks should just let Bibby go and use his money to go after a point gaurd like Jarret Jack, who plays defense(sign and trade with J-Chill’s rights to Indy for Jack and Brandon Rush), then offer Villanueva a contract and resign Marvin. I would also like to get one of the centers from the Clipper’s if possible (Kaman or Camby) Speedy’s contract, A.C. Law, and future pick might do it.

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
7:45 pm

Most of the lottery guys are project players. Not seasoned guys who will make an impact right away ex: Courtney Lee(or Wayne Ellington). Jennings/Rubio will struggle trust me. Mills on the other hand, Gave Stephen Curry and Team USA the business so you know what you’re getting with him.

Now I know Acie was hurt WHEN WE NEEDED HIM MOST. But he certainly wasn’t injured for the other 65 games that he didn’t get any significant playing time in last season. It was just unfortunate that he had to be hurt when we could have used him most; but sometimes Karma is a B!#ch…..MIKE WOODSON!!!!

The Truth

June 21st, 2009
7:52 pm

As much as I like Acie as a person, he has too many intangibles working against him:

Untimely injuries – Is he snake bitten or what? He’s too injury prone
Style of play1 – He doesn’t seem to gel in Woody’s (ISO JOE) offense
Style of play2 – Where is his MoJo? He’s too laid back. Not aggressive
Too Complacent1 – Does he like sitting on the pine. Why isn’t he upset?
Too Complacent2 – 2M/yr he makes is ok, why not 10-14M? Is he motivated?
Skill Set – The hype from college isn’t exactly translating in the NBA
Attitude – Is he hungry enough? Does he feel entitled to start PG in the future?

Folks can say what they want Josh (good bad or indifferent), since he been a Hawk player, he has a way of getting Woody’s attention both on and off the court. Apparently, Acie has not been taking notes.

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
7:59 pm

Ant Banks, LOL @ Paper Cut!!!!!

Hoops

June 21st, 2009
8:15 pm

cp,

I don’t know about that cp. If we could predict the future for these players we would know who to take. I like T. Evans. I think he has alot of possibilities. We could get him in the 6-10pick range. Also, Pendergraph shows alot of potential.

If we draft a PG, we need to move up so we can get a good one. Then we should sign Sessions or J. Jack to be the starter and let Bibby walk(costs too much). We will surely re-sign Flip to back up the 1 and 2 positions.

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
8:54 pm

Here’s my thing w/Acie though. He’s only 23. He’s Chauncey Billups big: 6′3 195, and he plays good defense. I mean, he played great against New Orleans right before he got injured, so who knows how well he would’ve played while Marvin was out. But I guess if we wanted we could package him for another PG in the draft, like mills if he unexpectadly gets picked up ahead of schedule(Whoever drafts Lawson probably won’t give him up.)

Dallas has the 22nd pick and the Kidd thing didn’t quite work out how they planned. Maybe we could send Acie to them for their Pick? Acie is from the area and i’m sure Dallas has scouted him a lot in the past.

Most recent Mock drafts show Hansbrough going at 15 to the Pistons. If that’s what happens then oh, well. Forget him, but it should be easy for us to get our hands on Ellington, Mills, and Green.

Dashizz47

June 21st, 2009
9:04 pm

Ariose
I can’t believe you think the answer to the Hawks success will be Acie Law, he’s been given chances! Royal Ivey got traded and has yet to take advantage of the move the same with Salim. These are all 2nd rounds picks that haven’t panned out, sorry! What happens if Childress returns, I just don’t see Acie in the rotation. Joe, Bibby, Evans & Flip and maybe a good rookie! I don’t think Acie can beat Speedy. Its not the coach, he’s not a true point guard and his defense is suspect!

I wish him the best on another team! Who’s Salim playing for? Oh, that coaches fault also!

LMAO

RICHIE RICH

June 21st, 2009
9:16 pm

The problem with Acie is he can’t shoot a lick!!! That’s why he doesn’t get no P.T

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
9:27 pm

From Sekou’s article today:

“Horford was an instant hit and is one of the league’s top centers. ”

a quote sure to vex the views of big dave.

niremetal

June 21st, 2009
9:32 pm

Not to mention Clyde…

Sautee

June 21st, 2009
9:42 pm

When Acie has gotten time, he’s produced. In the 12 games where he got at least 15 minutes he averaged: 7.2 pts., 2.4 reb., 3.1 ast. to .08 turnovers.

Bibby in 34.7 minutes averaged 14.8 pts., 3.5 reb., 5.0 ast. to 1.62 turnovers.

VERY comparable numbers relative to their respective minutes.

I agree that his jumper was seriously lacking, and if he had shot a higher percentage, he would have had more playing time. But those figures show ME enough to say don’t give up on Acie until he’s had a little more time. Don’t you KNOW Dallas is wishing they hadn’t given up on Harris?

Hoops

June 21st, 2009
10:01 pm

I can’t look into the future and see how these players are going to turn out and nether can the Hawks coaches. You have to base your opinion on their performance in practice and games. Based on what I have seen in games, we need to sign another PG (Sessions or Jack) and trade Acie, Speedy, or Evans with our #19 pick and move up in the draft. We will be fine with Sessions or Jack and Flip. JJ can play some short time @ PG also. I would not draft another PG because Woody will not develop them. Draft night is going to be interesting!!!

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
10:16 pm

Well it looks like my harmless posts have been taken away by the moderators…whatever…

HawkKingBibby

June 21st, 2009
10:49 pm

SEKOU, I just finished reading your story on the Hawks and WAYNE ELLINGTON. Its hard to read between the lines on coaches comments in particular the high praise from Drew. From what you have seen and heard does this kid have nba 3 point range? PS: I cant help but think of Mitch Richmond when I watch him. I know thats crazy but….

darrell starks

June 21st, 2009
11:08 pm

Rick sund if ty lawson is not there do not pass on terrence william no way i no he 6′6 but he will be a still at pick 19 he will be a beast.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

darrell starks

June 21st, 2009
11:11 pm

I still say trade the pick for bosh but if we keep the pick and ty lawson is gone and terrence william is there do not pass on him.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

Melvin

June 21st, 2009
11:24 pm

Wayned Ellington reminds me of a 3 inch taller Rodney Monroe that played at NC State in the 90’s. A smooth shooter that could shoot the lights out in a gym from anywhere on the floor. How is that, for an Old School flashback?????

cp

June 21st, 2009
11:28 pm

Hoops I hear you but T. Evans cant shoot. Woodson does not like guards who cant shoot. Evans has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. Well Joe is going to be the primary ball handler here. The offense we run does not fit Evans strengths. The kid is going to be a nice player but sometimes its about fit. I don’t see Woody taking the ball out of Johnson’s hand and Evans does not have that jumper needed to play off Joe, at least he does not have it now. Can you see Woody being patient with a young guard who needs the ball in his hands and is not a good shooter? Sounds almost like a guy we have riding the bench now. If we got a guy in here who would take over the offense and add some damn flexibility to it then yea I wouldn’t mind a guy like Evans but with Woodson being the coach I just don’t see him being effective with his style of play but I truly see where you are coming from..

From reading the new article I guess we are taking Ellington. Can this guy create off the dribble Ariose? I cant lie I never paid too much attention to him. I saw him mostly as a shooter so what are his other strengths?

Ariose

June 21st, 2009
11:34 pm

Cp, trust me, He’s just like joe. Silent but Deadly, and with joe getting so much attention, there’s NO WAY Ellington won’t make you pay. He catches lobs too lol.

I guess Ellington took my advice. I was talking to him over twitter last week and I told him to make sure he killed it during his workout here b/c JJ needed a backup lol.

darrell starks

June 22nd, 2009
12:01 am

DO not sleep on terrence william he is a lock down defender plus his style in the nba will surprise a lot of people i can see him 4year from now avg 20 points a game.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

Ariose

June 22nd, 2009
12:14 am

It’s really a two-headed moster w/Danny Green and Ellington which is why i’m also lobbying for Green. They play really well together.

Here’s Wayne Ellington’s Draft Express Profile:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Wayne-Ellington-482/

Ariose

June 22nd, 2009
12:16 am

DS, they have an article on Williams over at Hoopsworld right now. It’s about ppl questioning his stroke. He says it’s not a problem, he’s working on it and b/c he does other things so well, not to worry…

darrell starks

June 22nd, 2009
12:23 am

Thanks ariose i will check it out.
GO HAWKS!!!!!

darrell starks

June 22nd, 2009
12:51 am

One thing when scouting and nba player sometime we get caught up in there scoring avg in college and dont look at the style of play for example iggy of philly was a horrible shooter in college but you new his style of play was going to be speciall in the nba and that how i feel about terrence william.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

Libid

June 22nd, 2009
3:13 am

I would love to have Teague. He wants to learn from the greats (he said so himself). No one better to learn from than Mike Bibby, the player that many people are comparing him to!

James

June 22nd, 2009
12:58 pm

this is what the picks for the hawks should be.

#19 – Toney Douglas (Florida State)
#49 – Josh Heytvelt ( Gonzaga)

James

June 22nd, 2009
1:12 pm

I don’t understand why people are saying draft Wayne Ellington it makes no sense cause the hawks already got Joe Johnson they play the same position which is SG.

The Hawks need a PG, SF & C.

Sign Rafer Alston then draft Toney Douglas for backup. then the PG is settled. trade Acie Law & do not re-sign Bibby.

Sign Richard Jefferson and trade Marvin Williams.

Sign Rasheed Wallace.

2009 Starting Lineup would look like.

PG: Rafer Alston/Toney Douglas
SG: Joe Johnson/Flip Murray
SF: Richard Jefferson/Mo Evans
PF: Al Horford/Zaza Pachulia
C: Tyson Chandler/Nazr Mohammed

HawkKingBibby

June 22nd, 2009
1:16 pm

I love the new blog on Physco T its a must read. Niremental, Kind of makes you think though when you see Smooves trade # after July 1st macthes up almost perfectly with a Certain Toronto Raptors pf salary #.

reedeak

June 24th, 2009
11:50 am

I think we should do whatever it takes to get Bosh. It would be interesting if we traded Al,Acie,and 19th ick for bosh. Trade marvin and speedy for Coran Butler. Sign and trade bibby for Rafer. Resign Flip, Zaza and Solo. Hope that Toney Douglas falls to our 2nd round pick.

PG:Rafer,Flip, Toney Douglas

SG:Joe, Flip, Toney Douglas

SF:Coran, Mo

PF:Josh,solo

C: Bosh,zaza

That front line could be pretty dangerous.

reedeak

Let the workouts begin

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