Be careful what you wish for …
Hey Josh Smith, true or false, the rumor mill loves you?
HAWKSVILLE - If you believe what you read, and I’ll warn you that you can’t always do that where NBA rumors are concerned, Josh Smith’s name is generating some serious buzz on the trade rumor mill as the NBA draft approaches.
ESPN.com’s NBA Insider Chad Ford claims the big rumor of the day is that the Hawks are shopping Smith (I’ve had two Hawks sources insist to me this afternoon that they aren’t shopping Smith or anything like it, but what else do you expect them to say?), hoping to find a taker for their 23-year-old power forward (the one with the $6 million trade kicker and the love-him-or-hate-him debate stuck to his profile).
Normally, I’d take my garbage extinguisher and put down a silly, Hawks-related rumor before it starts burning. But not this one.
Even if the Hawks haven’t formally chatted up teams about the prospect of trading Smith, I know it’s been discussed internally. And here’s another warning, all those wanting to vote Smith off the island better be careful what you wish for. Aside from this being a win all the way around for Smith (if anything were to happen he’d get the $6 million, a move to a potentially better situation and he’d rid himself of all those folks groaning every time he does anything other than dunk or block a shot), it’s a huge gamble for the Hawks. There’s no way you move a player as young and talented as Smith without getting someone equally young and talented in return.
And Ford is absolutely right about one thing, there are plenty of teams that would love to snatch him away from the Hawks and plant him on their frontline for the next five to seven years and see just how much better he’ll get in that time.
I say this after having numerous conversations last summer and all season long with scouts and executives from teams around the league wondering just how good Smith might be if he played in another system (no one has ever seen him anywhere but in a Hawks uniform).
They won’t have to wait much longer to get a look. My sources inform me that Smith is headed to Las Vegas next month to participate in the USA Select team’s summer workout. He’ll be working with the same elite team of young stars that Al Horford worked with last summer as they helped prepare the Olympic team for their gold medal march in Beijing. (Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, LaMarcus Aldridge, Andre Iguodala, Rodney Stuckey, Kevin Martin and O.J. Mayo were some of the other young stars on that squad. Personally, I’d love to see Smith in that mix and see what kind of things he might do in that set up. Doesn’t sound like the kind of cat I’d be trying to get rid of, but hey, it’s not my call).
Something tells me that any NBA team wondering what Smith looks like free from the backcourt dominated system the Hawks run will be sitting in that gym in Vegas next month taking some serious notes as well. Horford earned raves from folks in attendance, many of whom asked later why they didn’t see any of that from him during the season.
It’s a legitimate question, especially for players that aren’t the No. 1 offensive option on their teams during the NBA season like Durant, Martin and Iguodala are on their teams.
Look no further than the recently completed NBA Finals for proof that patience (with talented but still developing young players) is a virtue that most teams would be wise to embrace.
Orlando had Trevor Ariza on their roster just as he was coming into his own but they couldn’t wait. It had to sting his old teammates watching him help the Lakers usher the Magic out of the Finals in five games. In fact, outside of Kobe Bryant and Derrick Fisher, the Lakers’ other main players during the series were all basically someone else’s cast offs. Miami sent Lamar Odom packing (albeit for Shaquille O’Neal). And Memphis foolishly gave up on Pau Gasol (swapping him for Kwame Brown, two passes to Six Flags over Georgia and a lifetime supply of Twizzlers … or something like that).
I’m not suggesting that teams should never trade away young talent. There are certainly times when a parting of the way works for both sides.
I’m only warning that you better know exactly what it is you are doing when you enter this realm (and we still don’t know for sure if this is only idle chatter, speculation rooted in some real conversations or just 226 words of complete nonsense designed to stoke the pre-draft flames).
Either way, the Hawks are on the clock (draft and otherwise) between now and training camp. And it appears that we aren’t the only ones watching to see what they do.
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345 comments Add your comment
Mike
June 16th, 2009
3:48 pm
Trade Marvin Williams, Acie Law and our draft pick for Tracy McGrady, then we are a contender
OJ Da Juiceman
June 16th, 2009
3:48 pm
Ay, ay, OK!
Depressed Hawks Fan
June 16th, 2009
3:55 pm
Mike,
Trade Marvin Williams, Acie Law AND our picks for some ol’ n’ rusty Tracy McGrady? No way, man, no way!
Jason
June 16th, 2009
4:10 pm
Josh Smith is a souped up Trevor Ariza with a worse jumpshot.
Face it people:
1) He can’t shoot a jumpshot
His post moves are way out of control and he therefore doesn’t know where he is shooting from in the post
2) He can’t pass
3) He has no basketball IQ
4) He can’t dribble without hitting the ball off his leg
5) He sucks at post defense
6) He is immature
7) He whines on every call
9) HE CAN;’T DRIBBLE A BASKETBALL
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
4:26 pm
ding!
bigdave
June 16th, 2009
4:29 pm
if its not including Amare or Bosh (both with extensions)… then id laugh in their face… the kid is untouchable…
TRADE HORFORD !!!
AL<JOSH
bigdave
June 16th, 2009
4:30 pm
Jason you lost credibility when u said the kid cant pass… he’s an excellent passer…
Melvin
June 16th, 2009
4:35 pm
Jason,
I guess the other teams allow Josh to put up 17pt and 8rebs a game on them. If he’s such a terrible player than why would another team want to trade for him and his 58 mil contract with a 6 mil trade kicker…
Depressed Hawks Fan
June 16th, 2009
4:38 pm
Jason,
It’s all because of Mike Woodson. Mike Woodson is a confidence killer. The reason why I’m holding Woody accountable is because he’s the coach! The coach has to be the role model, not the player. Again, this is a young team, and you have to raise them, just like they’re your own kids. Teaching them from right and wrong (on a basketball standpoint, and even in life), and what ever else goes with being a good basketball player or coach. If you can’t teach all those intangbles, than you’ll be better of gone.
Depressed Hawks Fan
June 16th, 2009
4:49 pm
We might be chasing Woody away with all of this fussing! Rick Sund might not even have to fire him! Maybe he’ll walk out on us just like Billy Knight. Cause that’s what a “real” coach and GM would do.
*Joking*
Astro Joe
June 16th, 2009
4:50 pm
Sautee, yes, that is exactly what he did in the first few games of the season. And whoever developed the early season defensive scheme did a great job of utilizing Smith effectively. But I wouldn’t let him off the hook simply because of the injury. Eventually, he was able to regain his energy on the offensive end. And that 0 rebound performance against the Lakers came after the ASG break. I think his priorities changed. He went from a DPOY mindset to something less than DPOY. Or, at least, I think it is more likely that the player changed vs. the scheme that led to a 5-0 record.
And if Mike Woodson is the reason why Smith isn’t all he can be, then if he ever reaches that promised land, let’s make sure that his coach gets all the credit and the player ets none. You simply can’t have it both ways. Coach prohibits player from success but when player gains success, he is the one to praise.
niremetal
June 16th, 2009
5:01 pm
I agree that the injury affected Josh for the first couple weeks after he got back. But he looked great in late December into January. I don’t think you can blame his subsequent dropoff (not to mention his awful free throw shooting) on his ankle, since he looked pretty damned good to me after a month back.
Dean
June 16th, 2009
5:08 pm
Bill C. – Can’t see Memphis making a deal with the Hawks. True they wanted Josh last summer, but that was as a free agent. Conley played well second half of last year and Hollins likes him. Ceratinly wouldn’t give him up for Acie. I think the Josh to Memphis ship has sailed. Memphis looking for a true PF anyway.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 16th, 2009
5:14 pm
mountain_jim, the thought of acquiring Turkoglu has occurred to me too. I think getting him would allow the Hawks to let Bibby walk and trade Marvin with no real repercussions offensively, because Turkoglu is fully capable of filling Bibby’s role in the offense and step in as a full-time small forward. In particular I think he and Joe could run the perimeter two-man game all day, maybe even more effectively due to Turkoglu’s height. And this would also allow someone like Acie Law to conceivably start at point guard, since he wouldn’t exclusively have primary ball-handling duties anyway and he could concentrate on penetrating to the hoop when he gets a chance.
The main problem of course is salary — it’s tough to see how they could make that work long-term since they need to re-sign Joe after next season.
niremetal
June 16th, 2009
5:26 pm
bigdave,
I think you lost your credibility when you said “TRADE HORFORD.” So glass houses and stones and all that.
I’d say 4/9, 5, 6, and 8 on Jason’s list are valid-esque (ie they’re things that cause Josh problems pretty consistently).
Passing is something he’s getting gradually better at. It’s actually the one facet of his game that I did.
I’d say his jump shot is streaky rather than plain bad. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like the kind of thing that is likely to improve without completely re-working his shooting form (which is a very risky thing to try mid-way through a player’s career). The form on his jump shot has that hitch in it – like Rashard Lewis’s, but more pronounced. Rashard moves the ball back before going forward on his release, but he has a much smoother and quicker release than Josh, who actually pauses with the ball above his head for a split second before bringing it forward for the shot. That creates two issues; 1) the hitch means more things can go wrong during the motion on his shot, which makes it more prone to streakiness; and 2) even when he’s “hot,” the hitch gives him a slow release, which allows defenders to play more off him when he’s on the perimeter.
Ariose sent out this mix of Josh yesterday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY3y7d8-fdU
He takes a long jumper starting around 2:20. When he gets the ball, he’s wide open – no defenders were within 8 feet of him. By the time he releases it, one defender was right in his face and another was less than 3 feet away. (You also can see what I mean about the hitch…he brings the ball up and back before going forward with it).
(Incidentally, that highlight reel has one sequence where he goes coast to coast and makes it look good. But you KNOW everyone’s heart was stopped during that sequence.)
Anyway, that isn’t enough reason to dump him and his issues certainly aren’t all his fault…not even close. In fact, I’d argue the only thing on that list that would be hard to improve even with the right coaching is his ballhandling (which is the one skill that you either have or you don’t by time you’re a few years into the NBA, from what I’ve seen). Put him with the right coach, and all the rest improve.
But with Woody, Josh is standing on the perimeter half the time, doesn’t have anyone showing him how to play on-ball post defense, and doesn’t have anyone teaching him low post moves. That makes it damned hard to judge how many of his shortcomings are his own rather than Woody’s.
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
5:28 pm
AJ,
And maybe you don’t remember, but early last season I was one of the bloggers praising the way Woody had them playing, and, believe it or not, praising his use of a longer rotation. I actually posted that perhaps he was changing his stripes!
And there was no apology attached to my post regarding his dropoff. Just the FACT that he was never that same player the entire year. (sorry nire, but I disagree)
Talk to doc sometime about HIS theory about high ankle sprains (not just Josh’s) and how long it takes to fully recover. He thinks that Josh came back too soon and never fully healed. And I’ll certainly say that he knows medicine more than most on the blog.
Nire,
I actually DO think that he ruined his free throw stroke by coming back too soon. When he was at his worst, you could SEE that he was using too much arms and not enough legs. JJ even mentioned it to him.
That does NOT excuse the lack of effort he showed at times, particularly that horrid Laker game. But in MY opinion, he NEVER looked “GREAT” the rest of the year. I though he was having to adjust to not having his legs under him for the rest of the season. And I think it affected him, IMHO, more on defense than on offense.
niremetal
June 16th, 2009
5:33 pm
And of course, that list doesn’t list the equally impressive things that Josh does well – namely playing help defense and skying for rebounds. If he focused enough, he could grab 11-12 rebounds a game with little difficulty thanks to his size, strength, and athleticism. My fear is that if we do trade him, a coach somewhere else WILL get him to focus, and we’ll be watching him become a 20/10 guy.
The frustrating thing is, what do you do with him as long as we have Woody? Josh isn’t KG. He doesn’t have such a consistent laser-beam focus that he’ll improve and grow on his own within the system he’s given. It’s tough for me to see him becoming much better than the ‘07-’08 model (which was pretty damned good, but not All-Star level) as long as Woody stays the coach and lets us operate without an offensive scheme that exploits his potential.
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
6:07 pm
This is interesting, I think.
Everybody is ALL OVER Josh about his 3 point shooting (which there’s no excusing, it needs to be better, period)
BUT this year he shot 26-87 (.299%) from 3.
Had he hit just 6 more 3’s he would have been 32-87 (.368) and shot a higher % than JJ or Flip! Just 6 more shots! For the whole year!
How many of those 87 threes do y’all think were last second “bailout” shots at the end of the shot clock? Certainly, a significant portion.
Of course, more troubling still are the ones he launched with plenty of time on the shot clock. But just 6 more made threes and he’s hitting a better% than JJ.
I was SHOCKED by that. Anybody else?
I think what it points to is that he actually didn’t take that many 3’s in the grand scheme of things. (I think Ray posted something to that effect earlier). But also, that it wouldn’t take a “sea change” for him to be at least respectable from deep.
Just 6 more made shots.
Rod from College Park
June 16th, 2009
6:22 pm
Rufus1,
“YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN AL OR JOSH, BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH PF. THE ONLY THING JOSH DOES BETTER THAN AL IS DUNK!!!!”
Your GM feels that Horford is a center. How about Josh scores better, blocks shots better, passes better, and shows up in more games.
“When you compare AL, Josh and Marvin remember, Josh(15.5pts, 7rebs) makes 3 million more than Marvin(13.9pts, 6rebs)and 6 million more than Al(11.3pts, 8rebs).”
Josh makes more now because he is on his second contract, and has earned the right to make more money than Al and Marvin. That is how the NBA works. If we looked at Marvin’s stats, he should actually make less next year than he did this year, but that will not happen. It is the business of basketball.
Marvin 2008 stats
61 59 34.3 .458 .355 .806 1.80 4.50 6.30 1.3 .93 .64 1.15 2.10 13.9
Marvin 2007 stats
80 80 34.6 .462 .100 .822 1.50 4.20 5.70 1.7 1.01 .41 1.59 2.80 14.8
“WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY WE CONTINUE TO PAY HIM 10 MILLION A YEAR…IS IT BEACUSE HE HAS NICE DUNKS????”
We pay him that amount because another team was willing to give him that amount, and we felt the need to match the contract offer. What you really need to do is compare his stats to other power forwards in the league who have the same amount of production, and have been in the league for more than 3 years, and you will see that we actually got him at a discount.
Ramon
June 16th, 2009
6:26 pm
Name the player that Woody has gotten the best out of? Since he’s been here, I can’t think of a player who’s left the Hawks and their production went down. We all know a long list of players who have left and became better players elsewhere. So out of all of the players who have been here and left, isn’t it a powerful statement to say none of them (except maybe Sheldon) have gotten worse after leaving the Hawks? Does that not speak up enough about how effective of a coach Woody really is?
richbrave
June 16th, 2009
6:44 pm
doc:
On that trade, I thought JORDAN HILL at #5 might give the HAWKS a PF at 6′10″ and CARON would come closer than any other #3 to replace JOSH. Also, J-CRIT is a player and will be heard from in this league. Figured him to replace BIBBY. WIZ need to be able to negotiate and sign CHILDRESS for a trade, and McGEE is an absolute must have to back-up HAYWOOD. THOMAS is still signed for three years, but everybody knows he’s done. You saw what happened when HAYWOOD went out in pre-season. It wasn’t AGENT ZERO they missed so much as BRENDEN. So no trade, sorry, but nice to get diverted from baseball for a few. BTW, I’m sayin’ SMITH stays, and both PACHULIA and BIBBY are history in an ATLANTA uni. Be cool. Later.
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
6:47 pm
Rod,
Nice post. Good job of explanation.
But I’m curious why that same logic was TOTALLY bogus for you when I compared Marvin and his production on a rookie contract with Tayshaun Prince and his $10.3M contract.
Production for the dollar is production for the dollar. And Marvin’s production, at least on offense, is comparable to Prince.
That does NOT mean that I want to re-sign Marvin to anything more than what 14-15 pts. a game would be worth on the open market. Small forwards are the easist to find. And yes, once he signs a new contract, he’ll not compare that well with many small forwards in the league. Hopefully, as young as he is, there’s a LOT of room for improvement.
But if the comparison is valid for Josh than it was equally valid for Marvin. Even if you think he’s not worth it. And I’m NOT trying to start something, because I’m more on your side about him than you realize. I just found it ironic.
doc
June 16th, 2009
6:57 pm
NIRE AT LEAST JOSH DIDNT GET TIRED. man go and look at the stretch jj didnt get a friggin steal …….. NOT ONE. 30 games i think it was,th is shameful to awful nor did he block a shot. also josh reinjured his ankle during the season and it was a recurring theme.
folks are fools for jumping josh’s case and it goes way beyond the player deep into the subcscious mind the hate is so great. this is a kid who should be ready to take the keys of the city instead we see so many judas’judges among us detracting him at every faux false step. funny stuff guys.
sautee points out how little josh shot the deep ball and if memory serves me it was less than 1.5 times a game and also points lucidly to the FACT if he had made only six more shots though still moaning as fans, he would have had one of the better three point percentages on the team. way too much is made of his three ball and the illusion unfettered here unwisely.
darrell starks
June 16th, 2009
7:17 pm
This is my wish full thinking ASG bring in lebron for 2010 and pay 22mill a year and bosh is already here from the trade in 2009 and we pay him 18mill thats 40mill for 2players ASG will make so much money that they will be able to keep the hockey team and build a winner this will be the best bussiness move for ASG and the hawks will become a dynasty and win 5 nba titles.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
June 16th, 2009
7:24 pm
2010 wish full thinking
STARTERS ACIE, LEBRON, CHILL, JOSH, BOSH.
BENCH FLIP, MOE, HAKIM WARRICK, CHARLIE V, ZAZA,
RESERVE SOLO, WEST.
this team will be a dynasty and win 5nba titles and ASG WILL TRIPLE THERE PROFIT EVERY YEAR AND NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MONEY ANY MORE.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
RealSquawk
June 16th, 2009
7:26 pm
Big Ray,
I pretty much figured, but you know maybe something I said changed your mind. I won’t make that mistake again and yes after that second post I will be able to tell the difference from now on.
Now to comment on your post. It’s funny you bring up the hometown hero thing. I have never felt that Josh was a hometown hero and now I know why. He wasn’t picked in the top five or projected o go in the top five. Had we gotten Dwight Howard then I would probably have that hometown hero feeling. If you were trying to gain sympathy for Josh (which you probably weren’t) you didn’t at least with me. I have no clue how difficult it is to play in the NBA i assume it must be hard since there only what 360 active players at any given time. Josh Smith is okay with me most of the time, its the simple things that he has refused to do like not running the fast break, but I really don’t think it is all his fault(i will get into that at the bottom of this rightcast). The only reason I have ever been in support of trading Josh Smith is because he more than anyone on this team will get us the most in a trade. Simply trading him could put us in title contention. There is no other player on our team that holds that value. And its not because he is that valuable it is because he is that popular. Whether it be negative or positive he is popular and that popularity we can use to our advantage. O i almost forgot and this is the important part his popularity comes from his ability to make an exciting play and put up semi-large numbers doing it. How many players can do that? Not many and it happens to be one of our biggest knocks on Joe.
Sautee,
I would believe that Joe and Flip not only took more three pointers, but also took more contested shots and a few more half court heeves (is that how you spell it) no it is heaves . I don’t Josh as many threes as people make it out to seem, but he also doesn’t take that many at the end of the shot clock. Actually I think those are the times he hits. what worries me is one of the scouting reports I read said he had range from three , but was a streaky shooter. I have seen two streaks in four years, which is fine not knocking him for that. All that being said I think people just lump threes and long twos together well any twos together.
bigdave,
he can pass, but he is excellent and his pass attempts are sometimes risky, but yes he can pass.
Sautee,
3:42 post
you know what else was amazing during the first five games of the season. the team defense as a whole. The whole team was playing lights out, but all seem to fizzle half way through the boston game. Maybe Josh sets the tone on defense a little more than we think.
Now its my turn. Yes it would be all good and grand to trade Josh Smith. the enigma, the pain, the headache would be gone. And yes we can trade him for chris kaman and the number one pick and take that number one pick and trade down a spot to pick up a savvy veteran from oklohoma or minn so that we can still put ourselves in position to get Ricky Rubio then by all means trade him!!
However if we are simply trading him just for a center or a point guard you do not and you cannot do it. Not because it is to risky, but because it is just plain dumb. Look at what we have right now. Outside of Bibby we have two very good perimeter defenders and weak side shot blocker and a strong side shot blocker (if that exist). not many teams can make that claim. YOu all gripe about his shot selection and his over zealousness when presented with a fast break.
Well let me tell you that it isn’t his job alone to make sure that doesn’t happen its the coaches and the players. And since I have seen players not pass him to when he is wide open just to look around and see nobody else moving to get open. And after seeing Mike Bibby and Flip beg for the ball on the fast break I have determined it can all be their fault.
So then we shift some of it. not all of it, but some of it to Woody. My good friend and companion Woody. IT’S HIS FAULT!!! Not because of that or this, but because of THESE things:
I have never seen him sit Smith down after a bad shot or a fast break attempt. especially not as quickly as I have seen him sit down Salim after making a three
He has never adjusted to his team. he has simply tried to make them fit into his system.
By not adjusting his system he has continuously put people in a place to fail.
I will leave at those three, but I will make a note Mike Woodson had the unfortunate incident of having a player die during training camp. Where he was at one point blamed because of how hard he pushed the guy. Something that drastic at your first training camp as a rookie head coach will derail anyone from their original goals and ideas.
All of that said I say keep him go out there and do some real work Sund get us a center, get us a offensive coordinator at the least, and get us point guard who can play some D and we will be fine. Also convince Josh Smith that 30 minutes off the bench isn’t a bad gig(that will be the hardest thing you have to do by the way).
bigdave
June 16th, 2009
7:31 pm
nire…
wasnt taking a shot at the blogger… but his assessment of Smiths skill/ability… true there is a degree of fact to all his points but his main premise was that Josh was a “souped up Trevor Ariza” gotta disagree with that…
as far as my comment, “TRADE HORFORD”.. u know glass houses and all that…
). he is a good piece, but no building block. honestly, i never liked the pick once i heard the rumors that PHX wanted the 2 picks for Amare. i thought his offensive game would progress year 2 based on what i saw his rookie campaign, but that optimism has died. u can make the argument for him playing out of position but i think he is playing the position that best suits his game. i dont see him guarding a large % PF in the league let alone division. he is more expendable then Smith from a production stand point. especially when you take in consideration our 1 on 1 “iso” schemes.. Josh can at times be hell for his opponents where Horford usually looks a hot mess… slow, robotic, indecisive, and that jab step that nobody bites on… hideous… just my opinion but i appreciate your intrigue.
we are all talking in hypothetical sense when it comes to these trades. in my opinion if we were to trade a big it would be Al Horford. who TO ME has far less upside than a Josh Smith. you are welcome to disagree. ive seen about all i can see of his sub par, unpolished, college, post game (but dont ask me to guard him
house looking 4 sided brick right now huh…
Najeh i see where yall are going with that Turk inclusion, would be all thats needed to create mismatches and replace Bibby’s threat from deep… but wonder what it would take to get it done.. they need rebounding help….? hmmmm… i know of a solid rebounder… AL HORFORD
i tell ya.. i want Bosh.. a big we could used to play high low with Joe… kinda how LA uses Pau and Kobe… a versatile Big who can pass, shoot, and finish.. a versatile Guard who can work on the block and pass to potential slashers, say a Marvin…
OTHERWISE JOSH IS UNTOUCHABLE
AL<Josh
Rod from College Park
June 16th, 2009
7:40 pm
Sautee,
Tayshaun also was named to the all defensive team three years in a row. To me, he is a much better player than Marvin, a lock down defender, or as close as it gets to one, can defend 2 or more positions and made his name in the playoffs, when it counts. That is why I did not consider it a fair comparison, but we can agree to disagree on that. Remember I also was told I was crazy for saying that Ariza was better than Marvin earlier in the season. I guess I got the last laugh huh. Maybe I’m not such a dumba@* after all.
bigdave
June 16th, 2009
7:42 pm
and Nire did i mention the pool in the back… of that 4 sided brick… 2, 3 topless women…
Tell me again who is the star of this team
June 16th, 2009
7:48 pm
ATL 11 11 37.3 0.421 0.133 0.732 2.2 5.3 7.5 2.2 1.1 1.5 1.91 3.30 17.1
67/159 fga and 52/71 fta in playoffs
ATL 11 11 39.0 0.417 0.343 0.622 1.5 2.9 4.5 3.5 1.3 0.0 2.91 2.20 16.4
70/170 fga 28/45 fta
I hope you Smith haters can figure out these playoffs numbers. Because if Smith is so bad what does that say for Joe Johnson. Joe said it”You get that type of respect for how you perform during the postseason,” “During the regular season, you get your name out there, you get known. But the postseason is where legends are made.”best before the playoffs”
Najeh Davenpoop
June 16th, 2009
7:54 pm
Holy sh*t, you know doc means business when he uses capital letters…
SHABBA RANKS
June 16th, 2009
7:55 pm
TRACEY MCGRADY HAS HAD, & WILL HAVE CHRONIC BACK PROBLEMS FOR YEARS!!! AND YOU PEOPLE CLAIM THAT YOU KNOW BASKETBALL!!! WHAT GOOD WOULD IT DO TO GET AN INJURY PRONE ALL STAR?
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
7:57 pm
big dave,
Al is a second year player. Wait until his 4th year, and THEN compare him with Josh if you want to be fair.
Also, Hedo is an unrestricted free agent, so there’s no need to get rid of Horford (sorry), but if we DID sign him, I’d expect that we’d let Marvin go in a sign and trade.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 16th, 2009
7:59 pm
“Everybody is ALL OVER Josh about his 3 point shooting (which there’s no excusing, it needs to be better, period)
BUT this year he shot 26-87 (.299%) from 3.
Had he hit just 6 more 3’s he would have been 32-87 (.368) and shot a higher % than JJ or Flip! Just 6 more shots! For the whole year!”
That is an interesting point no doubt… but I think a lot of the frustration with Josh shooting jumpers is targeted at his long 2’s as much as it is his 3’s. I wish there was a more detailed breakdown somewhere (82games.com?) of Josh’s shot chart for the season.
It is interesting to note that his attempted 3’s have gone down in each of the last three seasons. But when it comes to the long 2’s, I’d rather see him go to the gym and develop that shot instead of shelving it altogether. Most versatile offensive PFs can make that mid-range 2 with regularity.
MJ3
June 16th, 2009
7:59 pm
Rod/Sam,
No, you’re still a dumba$$. Ariza couldn’t crack the rotation in Orl. He got to LA, played alongside Kobe and sudenly became better. GEE I WONDER WHY.
Your beyond retarded if you think that Marvin wouldn’t have done even more than Ariza did if he’d been in LA. Seriously, what happened? Did Marvin steal yr girlfriend or screw yr mama or somethin? Why are you always tearin at his jock?
niremetal
June 16th, 2009
8:01 pm
Doc,
JJ was playing hurt. He just didn’t whine like a Wade when he got hurt, and played through it. Josh didn’t whine either of course, but it works both ways.
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
8:06 pm
Rod,
I agree totally that Prince is better. Totally. My point at the time was the “bang for the buck”, and not which player was more talented, or more valuable to their team.
And I DO remember your saying that about Ariza. Good call, though I’d probably say there’s less difference between them than you would. Ariza certainly improved more and more as the year went on, and made himself some serious moolah in the playoffs. Good for him.
And hey, we disagreed on some things, but I never thought you were a dumba$$. I know about your education, remember?
SHABBA RANKS
June 16th, 2009
8:07 pm
IF JOSH FIND OUT THAT THE HAWKS HAVE BEEN WORKING TO TRADE HIM, HE IS GONNA DEMAND A TRADE ANYWAY!!! HE DIDN’T WANT TO BE IN THIS SUCK @SS BASKETBALL CITY ANYWAY!!! HE TRIED TO LEAVE!!! HE ACCEPTED THE OFFER FROM MEMPHIS, & WAS OUT OF HERE, BUT THE SORRY AS @SS FRONT OFFICE OF THE HAWKS MATCHED MEMPHIS OFFER!
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
8:08 pm
Najeh,
agreed
SHABBA RANKS
June 16th, 2009
8:13 pm
ALL OF YOU PEOPLE ARE SPECULATING, & ASSUMING!!! I’M ABOUT TO GIVE YOU THE ONLY FACT OF THE MATTER ABOUT THIS JOSH SMITH ISSUE!!! IF JOSH FIND OUT THAT THE HAWKS HAVE BEEN WORKING TO TRADE HIM, HE IS GONNA DEMAND A TRADE ANYWAY!!! HE DIDN’T WANT TO BE IN THIS SUCK @SS BASKETBALL CITY ANYWAY!!! HE TRIED TO LEAVE!!! HE ACCEPTED THE OFFER FROM MEMPHIS, & WAS OUT OF HERE, BUT THE SORRY AS @SS FRONT OFFICE OF THE HAWKS MATCHED MEMPHIS OFFER!!!
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
8:18 pm
Shabba,
please stop shouting
Rod from College Park
June 16th, 2009
8:30 pm
MichealJAckson3,
Go find some kids to play with, and stop playing with me. Pay your bills, and let me pay mine. CLOWN. Go join the circus. I don’t have a girlfriend, I have a wife, and a knock kneed, big butt, trips over his feet when he walks, 2nd round bust, goofy basketball player would have a very hard time taking her from me. Find a new line. Steals my girlfrind, grow up. I guess I am beyond retarded then because I am almost positive that he could not have done what Ariza did. He could not hit a open jumpshot for us in the playoffs this year, so how would he have done better?
KevinA
June 16th, 2009
8:31 pm
Lets take a quick look at the last 4 years of JJ and Josh Smith
JJ FG% FGM-A
2005-2006 .453 632-1395
2006-2007 .471 536-1139
2007-2008 .432 647-1497
2008-2009 .437 620-1420
One could argue JJ has plataued. The addition of Bibby has not helped his shooting percentage. In most efficient year, (2006-2007, pre Bibby) he shot less.
JS
2005-2006 .425 329-774
2006-2007 .436 436-993
2007-2008 .457 518-1183
2008-2009 .492 418-849
JS has not plataued yet. Injury in 2008-2009 kept his shooting attempts down. Even though his points per game were down he was much more efficient. I believe we have no choice but to keep him another year. Will he become a all star? I don’t know. Four years in a row he has improved. He is still 23. He can jump out of the gym and is the only Hawk player who can take over periods of the game on defense.
Lets take a quick look at Flip and Bibby last year.
Bibby FG% FGM-A
2008-2009 .435 .437-1005
Flip
2008-2009 .447 355-795
Flip has the highest shooting percentage of our jump shooting guards. If you look at the volume of shots and the shooting percentage, you can argue the combined three, (JJ, Bibby, Flip) shoot to much, and not shoot well enough for the Hawks to go to the next level.
We know Woody likes to play a short bench. Lets look at why Marvin and Chills are so important to be signed.
Marvin FG% FGM-A
2006-2007 .433 306-706
2007-2008 .462 424-918
2008-2009 .458 285-622
Chills
2006-2007 .504 261-518
2007-2008 .571 327-573
2008-2009 - -
These guys take smarter shots. Their volume of shots was increasing. (except for the Marvin injury in 2008-2009).
Keys to winning. Our guards need to shoot less and play front court first. I did not get into Al, ZaZa, and Solo. Their shooting percentages are much higher than the guards. We do not need more back court shooting. We just need a pg who drive and feed our big men or kick it back out. A pg who can keep turnovers down and play good defense. We do not need a shooter.
Chills, JJ and Flip can fill in at point if needed. We have got to find a way to dump the 19 million in salary in Speedy and Bibby. Resign the rest and go balling.
There are players that are not perfect but play pretty well like Drew Goodon who can be had for a couple of million. I put Flip and Evans in this group. If they continue to be cheap – keep them. If Woody would play Solo more I think he would improve.
We keep hearing that our back court is dangerous, The numbers just don’t prove it out. Let me rephrase – they are good, good enough to make the playoffs. Good enough to make the top three seeds on the play offs? I don’t think so.
MJ3
June 16th, 2009
8:36 pm
Rod/Sam, so he screwed yo mama then. Aight thanks for clearin that up.
Blast
June 16th, 2009
8:45 pm
Wow! Amazing how a piece of rumour is stirring up Hawks fans. I can’t believe so much fuss over a rumour. What if Josh was actually traded? What kind of outcry would there be then? Wow!
Folks need to calm down and stop getting carried away. This is the same Josh Smith we all blogged endlessly on about last off season when his contract situation was uncertain. Now he’s signed to a multi-year contract and we are still talking about him being traded THIS off-season? This is nuts!
Josh ain’t going nowhere, folks. If he’s traded, expect it to be for an impact player. Seriously, unless you are getting an all star or a potential all star in return, you don’t trade your most exciting player. Josh was the best Hawk during the playoffs. He even upped his free throw percentage. Some Hawks had memorable one games, but Josh was the most consistent, and the only starter that played with the most emotions. Josh will get better, people. All he has to do is improve his defects, and he will be an all star. any team would salivate to have that guy on their team. Hawks are lucky to have him. Why give him up for unproven picks?
I think playing in your hometown should be a benefit, more than a distraction, if you have a well grounded family network. You at least stay out of trouble, get advice from folks you admire and look up to. Also, I would be inspired to play every night for my family and girl.
niremetal
June 16th, 2009
8:49 pm
Agreed, Blast.
Astro Joe
June 16th, 2009
9:05 pm
Sautee, yes I recall doc’s theory about the high ankle sprain. Just never understood how the ankle impaired his ability to block out but not his ability to catch the alley-oop pass.
Hey, I’m no fan but I also have repeatedly said that we shouldn’t trade him. He frustrates me to no end… but I’m not anxious to dump him. And certainly not for draft picks.
doc
June 16th, 2009
9:16 pm
my thinking josh enjoys about everything of playing at home except the fickle atlanta fans and the upper management and stupid basg that rarely come to his defense and leaves him out exposed to the hilt. simple math if they dont make a statement he will saying get me out of here so i can win some ball games without the hate and vitriol.
nire, no doubt about it jj was sick, i guess or at least it looked that way to me. i hope it isnt a player on the downslide. i outright saw josh hpbbling a lot last year and unable to land on both feet. it also affects how you bend your knees at the foul line doesnt it so maybe that could explain his slump at the foul line? maybe you could grant him that as i have done with the tired jj response you gave. when josh has been healthy he certainly has put up decent numbers at the foul line around 70% not the 58% he shot for awhile. funny when it was on the line and he had his health back in the playoffs, ummm who shot better from the line jj or josh? tired legs dont bend nor do hurt ankles, ok?
nire stay with me, with that said and knowing that bibby doesnt give anything on defense and jj was sick or hurt then who was left to mind the fort when it came to this team during major minutes? do you think it was marvin? …..fade for response from rod, heh heh …. this team was one that was built around and had its personality based on defense. that is the only way woody knows how to win, keep the possessions and numbers down. it was NOT OFFENSE, or do you disagree? why do we all get so virtues of offensive numbers when the team is only going to win on defense? i think the guys who gave it the most character in the end were smith and horford. can you argue that one? all i can say is: god, please dont make this team dependent on running woody’s offense to win games!
najeh, i just wanted to make sure you werent hard of seeing. heh heh
bottom line whether woody likes it or not the man the link to his success is josh and he better get used to it as we all should or find some defensive monster to replace him.
O'brien
June 16th, 2009
9:31 pm
Ariose,
I saw this article from Marc Stein on ESPN.com.
“One trusted scout told me this week that he is convinced free agent-to-be Rasheed Wallace would be a better counter to Dwight for the Cavs than Shaq — given his history of one-on-one defensive success against Howard and the fact that Sheed’s perimeter-based offensive game would help keep the lane open for LeBron”.
I know you’ve been on the sign Sheed bandwagon, and I like Sheed as well. I’m just concerned about his $8 mil price tag, and also the fact that we’d have to move Horford to the bench.
Sautee
June 16th, 2009
9:43 pm
AJ,
C’mon now man. You’ve never heard me give his ankle as an excuse for not blocking out. I’ve taken him to task for that repeatedly.
To me, his worst traits are his lack of effort on EVERY rebound (he certainly goes after SOME), and his propensity to whine to the refs. If he changes those two things and improves his jumper……can you say 20/10?