Dollars and sense
Long faces might be the norm if the Hawks don't do the right things this summer.
HAWKSVILLE – We apologize in advance for interrupting your viewing of the NBA Finals with hypothetical questions about the Hawks, but admit it, you’ve seen enough of the Los Angeles Lakers and Orlando Magic to last all summer.
But what if Mike Bibby moves on?
And Zaza Pachulia, too?
What if Flip Murray finds a new home?
And Josh Childress stays in Greece?
What if all these hypothetical scenarios we’ve been speaking of recently go up in smoke between the draft and training camp?
What if the Hawks can’t keep their team together because of finances, dumb luck and the aggressive pursuit of their free agents by other teams?
Like most of you, I’ve (foolishly) been operating under several assumptions the past few weeks. But after speaking with several NBA players, coaches and other sources around the league over the last week, it seems we’ve all been a bit too optimistic about the chances of all these guys reuniting next season.
“Unless I’m mistaken, getting all these guys in uniform for next season will cost a whole lot more than the Hawks are used to spending,” one Eastern Conference front office man told me Monday afternoon. “Check their roster and see how many guys they spent serious money on. It’s a short list. They inherited Bibby’s big deal and now that’s gone. They signed Joe [Johnson] and Josh [Smith] to their deals. Beyond that, there wasn’t a single guy on their roster they spent mid-level money on, not one, and that says something.”
When I asked him to elaborate, he had an interesting take what we’ve watched the past few years, the last two in particular.
“They got more out of their money than a lot of other teams these last two seasons,” he said. “That’s good while it lasts. It just doesn’t last forever. Sooner or later you have to pay to win in this league. The Hawks have gotten away without paying that price the past two years. They’ve done some things that their payroll suggests they shouldn’t have. But those days are probably over, because the teams they leapfrogged in the standings the past two years are not going to stay down forever.”
There's a possibility Mike Bibby and Josh Childress have worn Hawks jerseys for the last time in their NBA careers.
That’s probably true. But maybe they just made wise decisions about how to spend. They didn’t spend the kind of money championship teams do, but you have to crawl before you walk. And the Hawks crawled for years.
One player pointed to last summer’s free agent season as proof that the Hawks didn’t exactly swing for the fences and insisted that their frugal ways will come back to haunt them eventually, perhaps as soon as this summer.
“They waited until the last minute on [Smith] and had to wait for Memphis to put something on the table to get a deal done,” he said. “They lost the other Josh to Greece and then filled the holes with role players. Let’s be real man, and I’m not disrespecting anybody but signing Randolph Morris, Othello Hunter and Thomas Gardner doesn’t translate into championship moves. That sounds more like a team worried about spending some real money. And to players, that’s the kind of franchise you don’t want to deal with when you’re a free agent.”
That’s the real question for the Hawks this summer. Are they going to spend the money required to compete at the level they’ve become accustomed to the past two years?
This summer is about dollars and sense. The Hawks have to spend their cash wisely or all the work they’ve done the past few years could disappear by Labor Day.
Keeping Bibby, if that’s what the Hawks intend to do, won’t be easy. Anyone expecting Bibby to work for anything less than the mid-level is dreaming. In a league where starting point guards are at a premium (and starters that shoot as well as Bibby command even more attention), the price usually starts at the mid-level and rises. The key in the Bibby situation will be the length of the contract. If three years works for both sides (and I can’t see why it would not), then I can see the negotiations having some legs. If not, get ready for a divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable (financial) differences.
Pachulia clearly wants to come back here. He said as much during our conversation last week. But he’s been here before, in free agent land, so he knows what a player wants doesn’t always jive with the reality of his situation. Unlike when the Hawks nabbed him from Milwaukee four years ago, teams aren’t spending as freely as they were then. Still, Pachulia was a bargain four years ago at $4 million per season. He’s a bargain at that price now if the Hawks can swing it. But with the lack of quality bigs running around the league these days, that $4 million price tag might not be enough to retain Pachulia’s services.
Murray’s destined for a substantial raise from the $1.5 million the Hawks paid him last season. You don’t put together the type of season he did without seeing a surge in interest for your services. The Hawks have the benefit of being the one team in the league willing to take a chance on him last year. But sentiment crashes into reality and loses all the time in the NBA, particularly during free agency. If the Hawks want to keep Murray, a serious raise is in order.
Childress added to a bench that includes Pachulia, Murray, Mo Evans and whatever player the Hawks could take with the 19th pick in the June draft would be a massive upgrade over what they used during a 47-win season. But three different sources I’ve spoken to in recent days insist that they don’t expect Childress to return to the NBA this summer (he has until July 15 to opt out of his Greek contract or remain there for another season). The dynamics of his situation in the NBA haven’t changed from last summer. He’s still a restricted free agent and would be subject to dealing with a Hawks organization that couldn’t get a deal done with him last summer. So it was a serious miscalculation of mine to blindly assume he’d bolt Europe for the comfort of the states.
“I don’t know why he would come back,” a Western Conference scout told me. “There’s so much uncertainty in the league this summer. Teams are holding back because of the economy and plotting for the summer of 2010. Plus, he’s still bound by restricted free agency, which means he can’t really come back and shop around for the best situation. If the Hawks didn’t get a deal done with him last summer I don’t see any way they get one done now. No way.”
Two years into his NBA career no one is sure if Acie Law IV is the answer at point guard for the Hawks.
With Childress subtracted from the potential mix, that leaves the Hawks with gaping holes on the roster heading into the draft and free agency. And from all the conversations I’ve had, the Hawks are torn between using the 19th pick and Speedy Claxton’s contract (along with other potential considerations) to grab an established point guard or gambling that the player they deem worthy will still be available at 19.
Another split, from what I’ve gathered, is that there remains some debate as to whether any of the point guards available in this draft are better prospects at the position than Acie Law IV, who despite having spent two years on the roster still has to answer major questions about his readiness to not only be a potential starter but a solid rotation player.
The Hawks’ previous front office regime was notoriously unimpressed by point guards in past drafts. Chris Paul was “too small,” Deron Williams worried them because his “body looked too soft” and Rajon Rondo was a “reach” with the fifth pick, just to highlight a few of the explanations given for passing on three big time NBA starters at the position. That sort of faulty logic led the Hawks to draft picks like Shelden Williams (a reach if ever there was one) and botched free agent signings like Claxton (who was Paul’s backup when the Hawks whisked him away from the Hornets for a cool $25 million).
I won’t pretend to speak for Hawks GM Rick Sund, who has not indicated that he has any sort of prejudice against rookie point guards. But I also won’t assume that he’ll address the Hawks’ point guard situation in the draft.
There’s just so much work to be done in such a short period of time. For once, I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to be the Hawks’ general manager right now.
MY SPLIT SCREEN IS WORKING THESE DAYS. I’M WATCHING THE FINALS, TOO. I’m watching Orlando suffer through the same things the Hawks did when they faced Cleveland in the Eastern Conference semifinals and the same thing the Cavaliers did when they fell to the Magic in Eastern Conference finals.
Some teams just present matchup nightmares for other teams. The Magic and Lakers are about as evenly matched as two teams could be in the Finals. Spot for spot up and down the rotation there are compelling matchups (my man Mickael Pietrus did his thing again, pushing Kobe Bryant late, sinking two free throws in the final 30 seconds to help seal his team’s Game 3 win). You can’t ask for much more than that at this stage of the season, save for the somewhat tiresome Van Gundy family reunion going on every game night (Stan’s a riot from the national anthem to the post game presser but I’ve listened to just about all I can take from Jeff on the broadcast).
One thing I noticed that’s been bothersome I have to ask you to weigh in on. Is there a more disappointing player in all of these playoffs than Andrew Bynum? I know the Lakers’ big man has already had to battle back from two serious knee injuries in his young career, but he doesn’t have any bounce at all.
He’s a shell of the dude the Lakers refused to give up in any deal a couple years back and for the life of me, I don’t see why. I don’t see anything in Bynum that would make him untouchable other than he’s a legitimate 7-footer. And these days, that’s just not enough.
Shooters like Ellington could find themselves in demand on draft night.
Like most people whose team of interest is already do for the season, my attention has shifted dramatically in the direction of the NBA draft.
I know it’s fool’s gold, thinking teams are going to find answers to all their problems in a shallow draft. But what else can we bank on?
Combining my two pet topics of the month, I came up with another theory that requires your input.
After watching the Magic shoot a blistering (and Finals record ) 62.5 percent from the floor to win Game 3, I wonder if some teams will have the guts to rethink their draft strategy and identify the best shooters available?
For a team like the Hawks that would mean giving serious consideration to a player like North Carolina’s Wayne Ellington with that 19th pick. If Ellington’s still on the board, chances are there won’t be a better shooter or offensive player the Hawks could take in that range. I know he doesn’t address a particular position need for the Hawks (point guard or center) but he does address a skill need (the Hawks are in desperate need of more quality shooters).
Some teams aren’t going to wait until the draft to start adding shooters. Philadelphia pulled off a trade Tuesday for one of the league’s best shooters, stealing Jason Kapono from the Raptors for Reggie Evans.
Kapono, even in limited minutes, can change the game for the 76ers just by parking on the perimeter and posing as a deep threat. That’s a weapon teams will need, especially in the improving Eastern Conference. I suspect this won’t be the last trade of this kind we’ll see between now and draft night. Teams are going to be forced to explore every option they can to improve without adding salary.
Finally, and before I forget, the best NBA news of the week comes not from the Finals or the draft but from the real plague of the league – brutal officiating. We’ll have three fewer relics to pick on next year if this report in the Boston Globe is true.
Reportedly Jimmy Clark, Luis Grillo and Jack Nies are taking their combined 73 years of experience/service to the retirement village with them. Adios fellas, the hecklers will miss you.
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514 comments Add your comment
Astro Joe
June 14th, 2009
10:22 pm
Magic won’t finish this game with 90 points. I agree with the previously stated sentiment that neither of these teams are historically elite. But the same was true for the Heat team that won it a few years ago. And it doesn’t make the trophy any less gold or the moment any less thrilling for the Lakers. And I’m happy for Kobe.
Blast
June 14th, 2009
10:29 pm
Listen to the ESPN crew gush over Kobe once they knew LA will win the trophy.
Magic screwed up on this one. They could have won a championship this year.
Astro Joe
June 14th, 2009
10:31 pm
OK, I lied, they will score 90.
Melvin
June 14th, 2009
10:35 pm
The one bright side to the season coming to an end tonight. No more of those stupid Kobe and Lebron puppet commericals. The Kobe/Lebron puppet concept has got to be one of Nike worst marketing ideas..
Astro Joe
June 14th, 2009
10:41 pm
I can’t freakin’ believe that Adam Morrison has a championship and Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Stockton…
A Thinking Fan
June 14th, 2009
10:46 pm
The problem with D. Howard is he trying to be the “Second Coming!” He needs to realize he is not at SACA no more and learn his trade. We don’t care if he doesn’t cuss! Play ball “Big Fella” play ball…
G-Man
June 14th, 2009
10:54 pm
Melvin, Dont be surprised if you see a kobe puppet commercial rubbing lebron’s face into winning another ring.
Blast
June 14th, 2009
10:58 pm
Well, Kobe got one without Shak. Good for him. But Magic played really dumb in the finals. Turnovers, bad free throws did them in. They will learn from this series. I hope.
Halsey
June 14th, 2009
11:05 pm
I’m not sure drafting Shelden Williams at pick 5 or passing on Chris Paul was the worst thing Billy Knight did to the Hawks. It sure would be nice if the Hawks could take back the Pau Gasol for Shareef Abdur Rahim trade.
Astro Joe
June 14th, 2009
11:09 pm
Shaq averaged around 12 points in the Finals when the Heat beat the Mavs. That was undoubtedly Wade’s team.
The crazy thing about Kobe is how well he is playing in like his 13th year in the league. And it’s not about being a high school player, it’s about being a fierce competitor who takes care of his body and works hard at improving every year.
Since Magic/Bird entered the NBA, my top 5 are:
1 – MJ
2 – Magic
3 – Bird
4 – Kobe
5 – Duncan
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
12:45 am
Sautee,
Contextually, you can tell that when I said “The area where they’re freaking clueless” was my opinion rather than an attempted statement of fact. It couldn’t serve as the basis for a defamation suit.
Do you really want me to give you a dissertation on the law of defamation? Because I’d be glad to. Have to learn it for the bar anyway.
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
1:00 am
Also, I’m some fool posting on a blog. If someone ever gives me a podium like HoopsWorld or DraftExpress, I’d be much more circumspect about what I say. How much publicity a statement gets is also a key component of the law governing defamation.
As I said, I could go on all day with this. Or you could just stop with the needling, agree to disagree with my basis for calling BS, and move on. I made it clear that this was my system for calling BS. Feel free to create your own. But let me know if you want me to copy the whole Conviser Mini Review section on defamation and give you my analysis.
Astro Joe,
Astro,
Fun as it is, I hate ranking players across eras, even though I like that you limited your list to the post-Magic/Bird . I also hate ranking guys who play different positions. But I’ve had many a debate on whether Magic or MJ is the tops. I gotta give the edge to the guy who can dominate 5 positions over the guy who can REALLY dominate 2.
It also depends on how you view it, obviously. If I had to pick a winner of a 1-on-1 tournament, I’d pick MJ over everyone. If it were a fantasy draft where I could pick each player in their prime for a season, I’d take Magic because of his aforementioned versatility. I’d actually pick Duncan over MJ too, simply because he changes the way the other team plays on the defensive end even more than Michael did – that’s just what happens when you have an athletic, brilliant 6′11 guy standing underneath the hoop. But it’s just so tough to say, because no one can say for certain how Michael would have performed today (or how he would have performed without the consummate superstar teammate alongside him) or how Duncan would have performed 15-20 years ago.
Incidentally, I think LeBron might eventually make everything I just said moot if he reaches his full potential. But he needs a Pippen or a Kareem before we can even attempt to compare him to MJ or Magic, I think.
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
1:18 am
And PS, Sautee:
I dunno why you get such a perverse pleasure out of picking apart my words and throwing them back at me, but I’m done with it. If you want to argue about something basketball-related, I’m happy to. But I’m done with arguing over my methodologies and not-always-carefully-chosen words that I use when posting on a blog that’s supposed to be for fun. I really am done this time after this post, on my “BS alarm” topic or any other “How niremetal views the world” topic. So if you want to continue this argument (or any other like it), have a good time talking to yourself.
Josh Childress not coming back in 09-10 season?
June 15th, 2009
7:05 am
[...] a deal done with him last summer I don
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
7:37 am
Astro Joe,
You know how it is. There’s always some lucky scab who gets a ring, and did absolutely NOTHING to earn it. So Morrison gets a ring, and he should be thanking the Bobcats for it. Meanwhile Radmanovich is cursing Mitch Kupchak…
Niremetal,
MJ was playing alongside an all-star/superstar SG/SF, but he was also one of the very few backcourt players to dominate the game FROM the backcourt for several years in a row, to include winning titles, WITHOUT a dominant or even notable big man. To me, that is one of the things that makes him unique. Realistically, with the exception of one of the greates role players ever in Dennis Rodman, all MJ ever had was Pippen. No other teammate, not really even Ron Harper or Horace Grant, was much more than a side-bar role player, though both of the aforementioned players were decent players. Again, MJ dominated the entire game from the 2-spot, with no big man that was anywhere close to dominant. Can’t name another who did that offhand, and even Kobe and Wade can’t claim such a thing. While Gasol isn’t as dominant as Shaq, he’s an all-star and a threat that has proven difficult for any team to stop (and really…who’s stopped him in the last few years? Nobody..), and he’s the reason why Kobe and the Lakers have made it to the Finals two years in a row.
Can’t argue with the comments on Magic Johnson, as he was a unique player all to himself, and even Lebron is not like him.
As for Duncan, he’s one of the best big men in the business, to ever hit the court. He’s even better than the guy he eventually replaced, and probably the best team leader I’ve seen at his position (his cerebral ability and versatility put him over Shaq, who dominated by having the athleticism to match his “bigger and stronger than everybody else” frame).
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
7:40 am
Melvin,
Your 10:20 post had me laughing like hell. As for the Bosh/Josh trade, I don’t know if anybody really believes it’s on the table, but it certainly seems to be the most popular one for the moment, doesn’t it?
Eric
June 15th, 2009
8:32 am
Funny watching Phil Jackson after games just give a cold handshake and not even talk to the other coach.
Guess that’s what happens when you’re “the greatest of all time”
Astro Joe
June 15th, 2009
9:32 am
nire, if MJ were playing in today’s NBA, he may have never learned how to shoot the 3-ball, because without hand-checking, he would be able to get to the rim each and every possession. If we think Wade gets a lot of free throw attempts, I can’t even imagine what would happen for Jordan. They would probably have to change the rules (again), because watching MJ shoot 20 free throws a game would kill TV ratings and attendance.
I agree that it is challenging to compare players across eras and positions. But so what, we’re not debating personal freedoms as defined (or not) in the Constitution. It’s basketball. Not everything requires the same level of precision, fact and precedent. Again, it’s basketball.
Adam Morrison has a ring? It’s going to take me a while to get over that one.
ILL-logical
June 15th, 2009
9:51 am
The lesson learned from this serise is that big is back and bigger is better.
The inside outside play of both teams,although the Lakers bigs as a gruop were better, and the rumored Shaq to the Cavs deal places a premium on big men that has to give the Hawks “braintrust ” some concern. Especially with their stated goal to model the franchise after the 2003-4 Pistons.
Me,I just can’t see Al succesfully going up against the Howards,Shaqs and Perkins on a regular basis and the Hawks winning these contests.
And I don’t see how adding either Bosh or Amare helps since neither of them is a center or over 6′10” and 250 lbs, roughly Al’s size.
Well congratulations to the champs and here’s hoping someone somewhere has some clue as to where this franchise is going.
dap01
June 15th, 2009
10:10 am
SEKOU: Do you think that the Hawks will be able to use the “Speedy Contract” in anyway this off season? What are the possibilities?
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
10:18 am
I’m a fan of Josh Smith. And to be honest if it would benefit him to be in another system besides this one, then I’m happy for him. But everyone who is saying Josh for Bosh, needs to remember Toronto already has Josh Smith playing for them. His name is Marion. There’s no reason for them to make a trade to get the same exact player they already have. Especially when they could at least trade him to the west and not see him so much during the season.
Also don’t forget interior defense was one of the Hawks biggest problems. And Smoove is STILL a better defender than Bosh. Bosh comes here, and someone gets injured for the season, then you still lose him and JJ (who wants to go to NY hands down). What do you gain then besides looking at the balls bounce around in the lottery for another 4-5 years?
Astro Joe
June 15th, 2009
10:18 am
ILL, big men and role players. Ariza, Odom and Fisher each had significant moments in the series to supplement the consistent performance of Kobe and Pau. But I wouldn’t sweat the big man ting if I were the Hawks. I’d be more worried about teams like Philly, Washington & Chicago. I think next season, we will see an increase in scoring amongst East Conference teams. There are only a few true bigs in this league, but what we will more likely see is teams loading up on shooters (like Orlando) and looking to combine strong defense with above average shooters. That combination is much easier to piece together than finding guys like Howard and Gasol.
Melvin
June 15th, 2009
10:20 am
Astor,Ray,Nire
Did you all catch Magic comment after the game. He said “Gasol is arguably the most skill big men in the game next to KG”. I almost fell out of my chair. Put both of their rings together and Duncan still has more. Heck, you add Rasheed in there as well and Duncan still trumps them all. I like Magic and no knock against the other 3 players (well, maybe somebody needs to knock Rasheed upside the head, heh) but they don’t come close to Duncan as he ate them all for lunch on his title runs… Hmmm, I got a feeling that Duncan heard Magic statement and I would be surprise if we see the Spurs back in the finals in 2010…
Oh yeah Ray, I think KG made Gasol look pretty bad in the finals last year and I believe had he not been hurt this season, that title could have stayed in beantown….
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
10:24 am
ILL, exactly right.
After thinking the situation over again, if the Cavs are only giving up Ben Wallace (LOL) and Pavlovic (who?) for Shaq, they will automatically be in the ECF next year. Maybe Shaq will get in shape now that he and Kobe are battling for their 4th ring.
Shaq + LeBron vs. Kobe in the 2010 finals?
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
10:27 am
On the flipside, if the Suns trade Shaq for 2 now-scrubs, how many fans will they have left? If Nash is traded for Rondo and Amare is unhappy/dealt, this team will take years to recover
Astro Joe
June 15th, 2009
10:43 am
Let’s be real. If Shaq goes to the Cavs and they end up playing Lakers in the Finals, Shaq will be going up against FISHER for the 5th ring. Because both Shaq and Fisher would be complementary players. Shaq and Kobe are not close to being on the same performance level these days. The headline would be LeBron going for his first and Kobe for his 5th and Shaq and Fisher would be sub-plots.
Sope Creek
June 15th, 2009
10:53 am
Just for a little perspective, Pau Gasol was the guy the Hawks took at #2 in order to effect a trade with Memphis to get Sharif Abdur-Raheem. The Lakers’ big man more than offset Dwight in the finals this year, and to me that just provides all that much more impetus for the Hawks to continue to build this team through drafting and developing players rather than trading those picks for players whose worth is already maxxed out or waning.
I have no problem with adding role pieces through highly selective free agent signings, such as the additions of Flip and Mo this year. But I’d hate to give up the Hawks’ future in favor of a compromised present.
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
11:04 am
Sope, I totally agree. Everyone talks about the Hawks passing up CP3 and Roy. But don’t they know the draft is/ and will always be a gamble no matter the prospect. I mean if you look back Kenyon Martin (although different years) WAS the lottery in his draft. And he still ended up being a complimentary player. And let us not even say Olowokandi’s name. Or better yet how crazy do people think the Hornets must feel when they remember they were the team who drafted Kobe? Its easy to say if you had CP3, Deron, Roy or Rondo your team will be this or that. But at the same time did THIS team not make it further than all of those guys? I don’t know any GM who had 4-5 straight good drafts. I mean look at Jerry Krause, he won 6 rings, and still got ran out of town because of draft picks when it was a consensus that those the Baby Bulls were the best in the draft.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
11:05 am
Melvin,
Good points. KG outplayed Gasol, he didn’t stop him. For a soft guy, dude sure gets a lot of rebounds. I think what hurt Gasol and Odom last year was the fact that when KG and Perkins were out, they then had to deal with a very energetic tandem of Big Baby and Leon Powe. Both guys are more physical than even KG. But you’re right, KG got the better of that battle. No two ways about it. Gasol is just hard to deal with on offense, due to his level of finesse/skill.
And you’re right about Duncan. He trumps ‘em all. Definitely the most skilled. Shaq wouldn’t have dominated if he wasn’t simply bigger than anybody else. It wasn’t that he was more athletic than anybody else. Just a lot bigger/heavier/stronger. And no way could he actually LEAD a team like Duncan does. But that’s just my opinion.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
11:09 am
Ramon,
When you desperately need a pg, and you decide to instead draft something that you already have a young version of, that’s just nuts. I mean, we were talking about NEEDS, not just “best available talent.” But I understand your point about Olowakandi and all the rest.
As for comparing how Roy, CP3, and Deron have fared in comparison to this team, can you say that we progressed to where we did because of the guys we picked INSTEAD of them? No, you cannot. Furthermore, you also have to examine the players they have around them, and the path they took in the playoffs. Do we make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs if we played the teams that Utah and Portland played in the first round? Would we even make the playoffs with the kind of roster New Orleans has? No, no, and no. It seems like apples to apples, but it’s not.
Melvin
June 15th, 2009
11:16 am
Ray,
I think Gasol gets all those rebounds b/c he’s the only guy that I know(or capable) that could touch his knee caps without benting over (super length)…lol
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
11:20 am
It is apples and apples. Because if we had either one of those players we wouldn’t have had Horford, we still wouldn’t have Childress, because all three would’ve been signing max contracts. They still would’ve ended up being on the bench with Lorenzo pulling popcorn out of their hair. You look at last year’s Celtics, this year’s Lakers and Magics. All of those team had wings that can play 2-4 if needed. And they also had good interior defense. Its easier to find a veteran serviceable point guard than it is to find good interior defense and athletic wings. Would Chris Paul have been even close to this good if he was drafted and coach by Minnesota? The entire point is that if you drafted those players, you wouldn’t have THIS team. So you still may wouldn’t be any better (chances are). And I would take the Hawks over Portland, NO, and Utah in a 7 game series. That’s just me though.
Sautee
June 15th, 2009
11:23 am
Nire,
You said this: “Contextually, you can tell that when I said “The area where they’re freaking clueless” was my opinion rather than an attempted statement of fact.”
Actually, I COULDN’T tell, but I’m satisfied at your admission of opinion.
And then you said this: “Also, I’m some fool posting on a blog. If someone ever gives me a podium like HoopsWorld or DraftExpress, I’d be much more circumspect about what I say.”
Exactly. Some fool posting on a blog. As we ALL are. And as such, our words can be argued. YOU were the one demanding “source that” to other bloggers here. That’s OK, but you set yourself up for others throwing your own words back. If you don’t WANT to be more circumspect with your words on the blog, then don’t be surprised when they come back to haunt you. That’s YOUR decision, man. Don’t put that on me. It’s not like I’m the only one here who takes what you say to task.
And then this: “But I’m done with arguing over my methodologies and not-always-carefully-chosen words that I use when posting on a blog that’s supposed to be for fun.”
Well, first off thanks for admitting your use of “not-always-carefully-chosen words”, since THAT has been the thing that drove many of my responses.
As I recall, YOU were the one trying to dismiss my argument for comparing JJ with the 5 closest in salary by arguing that MY methodology was incomplete. At THAT point, were you not “throwing my words” back at me?
Pot calling kettle. Perhaps if you want the blog to be more fun, then start choosing your words more carefully. That was my ENTIRE point – your carelessness with words. Which seems to me a curious thing for an almost lawyer, but hey, apparently you can compartmentalize WHEN to be circumspect and I’m sure that’s a valuable thing in the legal world.
Melvin
June 15th, 2009
11:29 am
Ray,
You’re right. I believe when you have a glaring need and have one of the top 5 picks then you should draft to address that need. Hawks needed a PG at the time they drafted Marvin. However, I do understand the philosophy of drafting a can’t missed (or franchise) player (which some thought Marvin was) but that shouldn’t be confuse with the best player available philosophy which is normally used during the mid to later positions of the draft.
SNARF: The SMARMY SNARK
June 15th, 2009
11:36 am
F%$#ck Chris Bosh!!!! IS he a center? I love you guys and your educated analysis of our team, so it baffles me when you guys cry for soft, craky kneed former all-star PF’s like Bosh. I KNOW you guys have more sense than this.
You guys are the brightest of the blogging world, so i’m sure you won’t disagree with my idea that we need to get Rahseed. He may have lost a step or two but he’s certainly no softer than Pau Gasol. Actually, when has sheed EVER been called soft on the defensive end? Any scoring he does will be a bonus, we just need an anchor. We won 47 games DESPITE being out reboundede in almost EVERY GAME WE WON. That’s just hustle so you can’t blame J-Smoove and Al for being outrebounded(back in febuary) by the lakers when their giving up 5-6 inches.
If you want to trade for a Big, you’r going to have to give up talent. We can’t afford to do that. We just need to sign Rasheed. It’s simple. Eventually we will come across a steal in the form of a young and talneted CENTER, but for now just sign Rasheed. Woodson likes vets and he has former ties to Rasheed.
And don’t give me that immaturatity crap. We have high-character guys on our squad who want to win. He will fall in line behind our “”all action-no words” superstar Joe Johnson. Their job is to win ball games. If yor’re worried about character issues after you’ve watched our team over the past two seasons, then YOU need to grow up.
Re-Sign Marvin,Draft Wayne Ellington, Draft Danny Green, Re-sign Solo, Re-Sign Bibby and/or Flip(or sign Anthony Parker…..though I think he’s like 33), fill the bench out with guys like Gerald Green, Mario West, Pray Acie get’s his Sh$@!t together AND LETS WIN WIN WIN GOOOOOO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
11:50 am
This guy Snarfs know what he’s talkin’ about. Couldn’t have said it better myself…….yup
I think we should stick with Acie. If you compare him with the guys PG’s the draft, what do they have on him. This is Woodys fault……if we play acie next season and he shows that he really is a scard llittle kid on the big stage with grown men, then we can trade him b4 the deadline for another PG with a little more moxi.
I’d much rather use those picks to support JJ and lighten his load a little, offensively and defensively(Ellington and Green)
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
11:52 am
Besides, there is no guarentee that JJ will be back after this 09-10 season
darrell starks
June 15th, 2009
12:14 pm
Smart snark i dont understand your analogy about bosh but any way we do not need any retread player like rasheed.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
June 15th, 2009
12:24 pm
Rick sund make the trade for bosh marvin horford and the 19pick and build this team around joe josh bosh and bring back chill.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
12:28 pm
Darrell with that team you STILL need someone to defend the center position. And you STILL need someone to be able to stay in front of the other teams point guard. It does no good to have a roster that can score 100 points per game, if your defense giving up 103 a game. And that line up still leaves the team with holes defensively, just more people in the stands to watch Rondo, Rose, Arenas, Nelson, Duhon, Harris, and other’s skip to the lane.
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
12:30 pm
Snarf, I love the idea of Rasheed. He will be the one to actually teach our bigs how to play post defense. Also a big like him who can shoots, allows Josh to be able to be on the block. With he, Smoove, and Horford I would LOVE the swag that the front line would possess. All three of them aren’t scared to knock someone out if they’re skipping to the lane. Believe it or not that goes a long way in the playoffs. Another thing about Rasheed that is over looked is even though he’s older, he still doesn’t miss many games.
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
12:47 pm
Mel/Ray,
If a franchise player is available, do you turn him down because you have a greater need somewhere else? Because let’s not forget, the project for Marvin was that he was a future superstar. I wish NBADraft.net’s profile of him was still up, because they made it sound like he was the next Grant Hill (circa 1997). DraftExpress’s profile of him is still up, and it’s glowing too.
I have no problem admitting that we should have taken Deron or CP3 in hindsight. But every GM in the league would have picked Marvin at #2 that year, and more than a couple probably would have picked him at #1. I agree that you go after need if all other things are roughly equal, but the conventional wisdom in the early summer of 2005 was that Marvin was a franchise player and that CP3/Deron were merely very good.
Here’s the money quote from that linked article, in my view:
“If Williams is not picked first overall by Milwaukee, Atlanta could entertain trade offers for the No. 2 pick, but that would affect Williams’ destination, not his draft position.”
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
12:56 pm
Astro Joe, are you serious?
Did you watch Shaq play at all this year? Shaq is still a top 5 center and can score at will and out-muscle any other player in this league.
And I still can’t believe Kobe gets away with those dirty elbows that the refs don’t call anymore.
Adulterer.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
1:06 pm
Ramon,
I love my Hawks, but I don’t take them over Utah or Portland in a 7 game series. New Orleans, yes. Utah and Portland? No. Not right now. We are too inconsistent. It’s why Miami took us to 7 games…
cp
June 15th, 2009
1:09 pm
How can you complain about us being out rebounded then bring up getting Rasheed? With all his talents he is a poor rebounder. A lot of us complained about Josh’s rebounding this past year but he still was a better rebounder than Rasheed. Sheed also said he wants 8 million a year. I think we pass on Sheed. He would rather play on the perimeter than bang down low. And Sheed takes a lot of plays off. Watching some Detroit games this past season it was times when he was on the court where he looked like he did not even care. I don’t think we need that type of attitude here. Guys always complain about Josh so I wonder would they be mad at Sheed when he is launching jumpers, not rebounding, and acting like he would rather be elsewhere. I would rather go after McDyess.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
1:26 pm
I think there are at least 7 teams clearly and considerably better than us. This stupid “4 long athletic starters” crap gets us nowhere. Horford is too small to guard anyone, Smoove is a risk defender, an awful post defender, and can’t make a jumpshot. Joe is too big and plays too many minutes, and Marvin is still an awkward and timid player who is too scared to shoot (his only big shot was that shot against the Celtics).
It’s time to bring a superstar post player like Amare or Bosh and to get rid of this starting core I feel like we’ve had for 4 years. Horford is not the answer.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
1:51 pm
Ramon,
The idea that finding a serviceable point guard is easier than finding an athletic wing player is just…well, I don’t have a good name for it. I guess it depends on what your idea of “serviceable” is. Do you know who James Singleton and Gerald Green are? Two guys who rival Josh Smith in overall athleticism, and neither one is having an impact in the league. There are many more where they come from. Athletic wings are available in every draft, and many teams have more than one. We had two or three ALREADY, when we drafted Marvin…I agree that good defensive bigs (particularly good centers) ARE hard to find.
You’re right that we wouldn’t have the exact same roster if we had drafted one of those guys we’ve been talking about. I won’t pretend to know if we would have been a better team or not, but I suspect we would be. I can tell you what we wouldn’t have: a point guard problem. Took us forever to get a decent pg (Mike Bibby), now here we are AGAIN, staring our two vets who can play that position in the face as unrestricted free agents, and a guy who may as well be a rookie (Law).
And are you basing CP3’s ability on coaching alone? If that’s the case, everybody on Byron Scott’s team should be as good as CP3 is. I think if he got drafted by Minnesota, he’d be putting up numbers that are just as good. Except he’d have Al Jefferson to work with, versus David West.
Anyway, while it does haunt us to a point, it’s over and done already.
Sautee
June 15th, 2009
1:53 pm
ding!
darrell starks
June 15th, 2009
1:59 pm
Ramon are you telling me that you wouldnt trade horford and marvin for bosh i say do it bosh is 25 years of age who has become a better post defender over the years because he has picked up solid weight and thru out his career he avg 1.2 blocks a game plus 9.2 rebounds a game if you trade for bosh not only the team will be better the offense want be so stagnated while everybody standing around waiting on joe to dribble the ball 20 seconds of the 24seconds left on the shot clock the hawks will finally have that low post presents that we so badly need.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
1:59 pm
I’m still waiting for Sekou’s summer blog where he tells us about Marvin working out with Sean May and working on his African Studies Degree. And also remembering to work out since he is an NBA player