Dollars and sense
Long faces might be the norm if the Hawks don't do the right things this summer.
HAWKSVILLE – We apologize in advance for interrupting your viewing of the NBA Finals with hypothetical questions about the Hawks, but admit it, you’ve seen enough of the Los Angeles Lakers and Orlando Magic to last all summer.
But what if Mike Bibby moves on?
And Zaza Pachulia, too?
What if Flip Murray finds a new home?
And Josh Childress stays in Greece?
What if all these hypothetical scenarios we’ve been speaking of recently go up in smoke between the draft and training camp?
What if the Hawks can’t keep their team together because of finances, dumb luck and the aggressive pursuit of their free agents by other teams?
Like most of you, I’ve (foolishly) been operating under several assumptions the past few weeks. But after speaking with several NBA players, coaches and other sources around the league over the last week, it seems we’ve all been a bit too optimistic about the chances of all these guys reuniting next season.
“Unless I’m mistaken, getting all these guys in uniform for next season will cost a whole lot more than the Hawks are used to spending,” one Eastern Conference front office man told me Monday afternoon. “Check their roster and see how many guys they spent serious money on. It’s a short list. They inherited Bibby’s big deal and now that’s gone. They signed Joe [Johnson] and Josh [Smith] to their deals. Beyond that, there wasn’t a single guy on their roster they spent mid-level money on, not one, and that says something.”
When I asked him to elaborate, he had an interesting take what we’ve watched the past few years, the last two in particular.
“They got more out of their money than a lot of other teams these last two seasons,” he said. “That’s good while it lasts. It just doesn’t last forever. Sooner or later you have to pay to win in this league. The Hawks have gotten away without paying that price the past two years. They’ve done some things that their payroll suggests they shouldn’t have. But those days are probably over, because the teams they leapfrogged in the standings the past two years are not going to stay down forever.”
There's a possibility Mike Bibby and Josh Childress have worn Hawks jerseys for the last time in their NBA careers.
That’s probably true. But maybe they just made wise decisions about how to spend. They didn’t spend the kind of money championship teams do, but you have to crawl before you walk. And the Hawks crawled for years.
One player pointed to last summer’s free agent season as proof that the Hawks didn’t exactly swing for the fences and insisted that their frugal ways will come back to haunt them eventually, perhaps as soon as this summer.
“They waited until the last minute on [Smith] and had to wait for Memphis to put something on the table to get a deal done,” he said. “They lost the other Josh to Greece and then filled the holes with role players. Let’s be real man, and I’m not disrespecting anybody but signing Randolph Morris, Othello Hunter and Thomas Gardner doesn’t translate into championship moves. That sounds more like a team worried about spending some real money. And to players, that’s the kind of franchise you don’t want to deal with when you’re a free agent.”
That’s the real question for the Hawks this summer. Are they going to spend the money required to compete at the level they’ve become accustomed to the past two years?
This summer is about dollars and sense. The Hawks have to spend their cash wisely or all the work they’ve done the past few years could disappear by Labor Day.
Keeping Bibby, if that’s what the Hawks intend to do, won’t be easy. Anyone expecting Bibby to work for anything less than the mid-level is dreaming. In a league where starting point guards are at a premium (and starters that shoot as well as Bibby command even more attention), the price usually starts at the mid-level and rises. The key in the Bibby situation will be the length of the contract. If three years works for both sides (and I can’t see why it would not), then I can see the negotiations having some legs. If not, get ready for a divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable (financial) differences.
Pachulia clearly wants to come back here. He said as much during our conversation last week. But he’s been here before, in free agent land, so he knows what a player wants doesn’t always jive with the reality of his situation. Unlike when the Hawks nabbed him from Milwaukee four years ago, teams aren’t spending as freely as they were then. Still, Pachulia was a bargain four years ago at $4 million per season. He’s a bargain at that price now if the Hawks can swing it. But with the lack of quality bigs running around the league these days, that $4 million price tag might not be enough to retain Pachulia’s services.
Murray’s destined for a substantial raise from the $1.5 million the Hawks paid him last season. You don’t put together the type of season he did without seeing a surge in interest for your services. The Hawks have the benefit of being the one team in the league willing to take a chance on him last year. But sentiment crashes into reality and loses all the time in the NBA, particularly during free agency. If the Hawks want to keep Murray, a serious raise is in order.
Childress added to a bench that includes Pachulia, Murray, Mo Evans and whatever player the Hawks could take with the 19th pick in the June draft would be a massive upgrade over what they used during a 47-win season. But three different sources I’ve spoken to in recent days insist that they don’t expect Childress to return to the NBA this summer (he has until July 15 to opt out of his Greek contract or remain there for another season). The dynamics of his situation in the NBA haven’t changed from last summer. He’s still a restricted free agent and would be subject to dealing with a Hawks organization that couldn’t get a deal done with him last summer. So it was a serious miscalculation of mine to blindly assume he’d bolt Europe for the comfort of the states.
“I don’t know why he would come back,” a Western Conference scout told me. “There’s so much uncertainty in the league this summer. Teams are holding back because of the economy and plotting for the summer of 2010. Plus, he’s still bound by restricted free agency, which means he can’t really come back and shop around for the best situation. If the Hawks didn’t get a deal done with him last summer I don’t see any way they get one done now. No way.”
Two years into his NBA career no one is sure if Acie Law IV is the answer at point guard for the Hawks.
With Childress subtracted from the potential mix, that leaves the Hawks with gaping holes on the roster heading into the draft and free agency. And from all the conversations I’ve had, the Hawks are torn between using the 19th pick and Speedy Claxton’s contract (along with other potential considerations) to grab an established point guard or gambling that the player they deem worthy will still be available at 19.
Another split, from what I’ve gathered, is that there remains some debate as to whether any of the point guards available in this draft are better prospects at the position than Acie Law IV, who despite having spent two years on the roster still has to answer major questions about his readiness to not only be a potential starter but a solid rotation player.
The Hawks’ previous front office regime was notoriously unimpressed by point guards in past drafts. Chris Paul was “too small,” Deron Williams worried them because his “body looked too soft” and Rajon Rondo was a “reach” with the fifth pick, just to highlight a few of the explanations given for passing on three big time NBA starters at the position. That sort of faulty logic led the Hawks to draft picks like Shelden Williams (a reach if ever there was one) and botched free agent signings like Claxton (who was Paul’s backup when the Hawks whisked him away from the Hornets for a cool $25 million).
I won’t pretend to speak for Hawks GM Rick Sund, who has not indicated that he has any sort of prejudice against rookie point guards. But I also won’t assume that he’ll address the Hawks’ point guard situation in the draft.
There’s just so much work to be done in such a short period of time. For once, I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to be the Hawks’ general manager right now.
MY SPLIT SCREEN IS WORKING THESE DAYS. I’M WATCHING THE FINALS, TOO. I’m watching Orlando suffer through the same things the Hawks did when they faced Cleveland in the Eastern Conference semifinals and the same thing the Cavaliers did when they fell to the Magic in Eastern Conference finals.
Some teams just present matchup nightmares for other teams. The Magic and Lakers are about as evenly matched as two teams could be in the Finals. Spot for spot up and down the rotation there are compelling matchups (my man Mickael Pietrus did his thing again, pushing Kobe Bryant late, sinking two free throws in the final 30 seconds to help seal his team’s Game 3 win). You can’t ask for much more than that at this stage of the season, save for the somewhat tiresome Van Gundy family reunion going on every game night (Stan’s a riot from the national anthem to the post game presser but I’ve listened to just about all I can take from Jeff on the broadcast).
One thing I noticed that’s been bothersome I have to ask you to weigh in on. Is there a more disappointing player in all of these playoffs than Andrew Bynum? I know the Lakers’ big man has already had to battle back from two serious knee injuries in his young career, but he doesn’t have any bounce at all.
He’s a shell of the dude the Lakers refused to give up in any deal a couple years back and for the life of me, I don’t see why. I don’t see anything in Bynum that would make him untouchable other than he’s a legitimate 7-footer. And these days, that’s just not enough.
Shooters like Ellington could find themselves in demand on draft night.
Like most people whose team of interest is already do for the season, my attention has shifted dramatically in the direction of the NBA draft.
I know it’s fool’s gold, thinking teams are going to find answers to all their problems in a shallow draft. But what else can we bank on?
Combining my two pet topics of the month, I came up with another theory that requires your input.
After watching the Magic shoot a blistering (and Finals record ) 62.5 percent from the floor to win Game 3, I wonder if some teams will have the guts to rethink their draft strategy and identify the best shooters available?
For a team like the Hawks that would mean giving serious consideration to a player like North Carolina’s Wayne Ellington with that 19th pick. If Ellington’s still on the board, chances are there won’t be a better shooter or offensive player the Hawks could take in that range. I know he doesn’t address a particular position need for the Hawks (point guard or center) but he does address a skill need (the Hawks are in desperate need of more quality shooters).
Some teams aren’t going to wait until the draft to start adding shooters. Philadelphia pulled off a trade Tuesday for one of the league’s best shooters, stealing Jason Kapono from the Raptors for Reggie Evans.
Kapono, even in limited minutes, can change the game for the 76ers just by parking on the perimeter and posing as a deep threat. That’s a weapon teams will need, especially in the improving Eastern Conference. I suspect this won’t be the last trade of this kind we’ll see between now and draft night. Teams are going to be forced to explore every option they can to improve without adding salary.
Finally, and before I forget, the best NBA news of the week comes not from the Finals or the draft but from the real plague of the league – brutal officiating. We’ll have three fewer relics to pick on next year if this report in the Boston Globe is true.
Reportedly Jimmy Clark, Luis Grillo and Jack Nies are taking their combined 73 years of experience/service to the retirement village with them. Adios fellas, the hecklers will miss you.
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
514 comments Add your comment
cp
June 13th, 2009
4:49 pm
I don’t see Mullens being there at 19. I think he is impressing guys with his workouts. I said a few weeks ago he could be the Partick O’Bryant in this draft. A guy who didn’t really impress people that much in college but use their athletic abilities to wow scouts and gm’s in a workout such as Yi did two years ago. Its crazy how guys don’t like to work out against each other. They rather face a chair or shoot uncontested jumpers in front of the gm’s and coaches. I like the guys who challenge other players and want to face other guys. Its easy to look great in a gym alone shooting uncontested shots or dribbling when nobodies hounding you on defense. I’m sure a lot of guys would have gone lower in the draft if they faced guys during this process.
cp
June 13th, 2009
4:50 pm
O’brien that is one of the main issues with David Anderson. He wants to get paid. I forgot how much he was asking for last time but it was a lot for a guy who probably wont be starting here. I will see if I can find the article with him talking about how much he wanted a year.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 13th, 2009
5:37 pm
This Laker team would not win more than 1 game against any NBA Championship team from 1981-2008.
Overrated, overpaid, and poor quality teams in the NBA this year
Ed
June 13th, 2009
6:21 pm
One thing is for sure…either sign David Anderson or trade him. Makes absolutely no sense to not let him play in the NBA if he’s talented enough to do so. If other teams have no interest that is one thing, but it appears there is a market out there for him.
Another name to throw out there with the #19 pick, if he’s available, is Jeff Teague. I don’t think he will be but if you check him out he’s definitely the type of PG that would stand a chance of playing for Woody.
Big Ray
June 13th, 2009
7:09 pm
David Andersen is a hold-over from the Billy Knight era. For that reason, he may become another lost asset. Perhaps “never had” asset is more accurate. Kinda like Cenk Aykol, the Turkish pg we drafted, who never came over (is the guy even alive still?).
I don’t know what Andersen is asking price-wise, but he has to understand that he has yet to play a single NBA game. And we’ve all seen how European play doesn’t always translate to the NBA. We could probably use him, but I won’t lose sleep at night if we lose him altogether.
Ken Strickland
June 13th, 2009
8:24 pm
Even though I mentioned we should look at trading for PG KHinrick, I decided to look at other PG’s we might persue as options. After looking over those options, and realizing the best options aren’t likely available, I decided to compare ALaw’s overall stats with some of those options. But, before I got started I decided to compare his stats, on a prorated basis, to our own MBibby, and the results were amazing.
Bibby averaged 34.7MPG to Acie’s 10.2MPG, which is 3.4 times as many mins. So, I multiplied Acies PPG(2.9), APG(1.6), SPG(.20) and RPG(1.1)by the 3.4 factor. The results were BIBBY/ACIE 14.9/9.89PPG, 5/5.44APG, 1.24/.68SPG and 3.5/3.74RPG. This compares favorably with Bibby, who accumulated his totals playing 79 gms and averaging 34.7mins to Acie’s 55gms and 10.2mins.
Acies style of play would definitely get him to the freethrow line more than Bibby. Acie shot 60 freethrows in 55 gms and 10.2MINS, while Bibby shot 171 freethrows in 79 gms and 34.7mins. I can only believe Acie’s overall stats would increase playing Bibby’s mins and an increase in confidence.
Sund needs to step up to the plate and tell Woodson if he wants to continue as the Hawks HC, he’d better do a better job of developing young players and utilizing the talent he’s given. He has to be made to understand the organization can’t continue wasting draft picks and money on players he refuses to adequately develop and/or utilize just because of his old school hangups.
Rick Sund
June 13th, 2009
9:35 pm
I need another year to evaluate. Suckers!
Najeh Davenpoop
June 13th, 2009
10:48 pm
“This Laker team would not win more than 1 game against any NBA Championship team from 1981-2008.”
Completely, 100% agree with that statement… but I wouldn’t go as far as to conclude based on that that NBA teams this year are poor quality. I think it’s a combination of a few things: Houston and Boston would have likely advanced farther and knocked out the current finals teams if not for injuries, and like Bill Simmons said in a recent article many teams (the Cavs especially) had attractive trading chips which they probably would have used to upgrade their roster at the trading deadline but didn’t do so due to the economy. I think there are a lot of good teams in the NBA right now — more than there have been in a long time — but maybe not that one juggernaut team that there’s been in the past.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 13th, 2009
11:14 pm
Exactly, Najeh. I think last year’s Celtics were light years better than any team in the NBA this year. The Hawks I believe overachieved at home and to have us at the #4 seed is a bit high I think. Cleveland massively overachieved. I am really mad Kobe will get that ring, especially since we killed them at home this year and he didn’t even try in that game, plus Phil isn’t the most active coach out there but will get his 10th.
UGH
A Tribe Called Quest
June 13th, 2009
11:21 pm
Who writes these poll questions?
“If the Hawks don’t make it out of the 1st round next year, should Woodson be let go?”
That’s probably the most useless poll question I’ve ever seen here
CEAZ
June 14th, 2009
1:37 am
Perfect Offseason: Resign Pachulia, sign free agents Villaneuva and Jack, trade Horford and Williams with 2nd rd pk to Toronto for Bosh, trade Childress and Law for Camby, and draft Teague.
Starting Lineup; Camby, Bosh, Smith, Johnson, and Jack
Bench; Pachulia, Villaneuva, Evans, ? , and Teague
very well possible and would solidify them as contenders
niremetal
June 14th, 2009
2:04 am
I bet the Andersen article is accurate. When you see an article that directly quotes someone, you have a source to trace. That doesn’t set off my BS alarm (unless it seems REALLY far fetched). The time you’re really rolling the dice with those websites is when you see weasel words like “reportedly” and “it’s rumored that” without citing the source (be it a person or a newspaper). Directly quoting Andersen is probably accurate. It’s too risky to print quotes with someone’s name attached to it when you’re making it up, because you’re risking a lawsuit if you’re lying.
The DraftExpress guys certainly know their $hit when it comes to overseas and college prospects. They know prospects and interview them routinely – in other words, they know the players. The area where they’re freaking clueless is what the NBA front offices are thinking. The Andersen quotes don’t pretend to state the Hawks’ intentions towards Andersen; it just quotes Andersen as he was giving his thoughts on the Hawks. My BS alarm remains in snooze mode.
It went off a little with the next-to-last paragraph of RaJaH’s post, but in context I’m guessing their source for all that was Andersen himself. That being said, it’s in Andersen’s own interests to play up how interested other teams are in him, since that gives him more bargaining leverage. So I take THAT paragraph with a grain of salt. In any case, we shall see…
PS, Cenk Akyol? Still not looking too impressive. He isn’t getting many minutes, according to his stat pages on the Euroleague website and DraftExpress…
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
8:45 am
The way I figure it, NOBODY is supposed to know precisely ALL of what front offices are thinking (that goes for beat writers as well, since they are also media personnel). What DOES get leaked out is not easy to trace unless it’s a direct quote, because sources do not want to be cited or traced.
And that is another explanation (besides a lawsuit) for not citing a source. If somebody drops a bit of information to you on the promise that you won’t tell on them, the smart thing to do is to USE those so-called “weasel words”, rather than use direct quotes from your source (even if you don’t name them), whom you will most certainly lose as a source if he sees his own words in print anywhere.
That’s why on websites like HoopsHype, you see the section labeled as “Rumors.” Nobody is playing anything false here, and if you’re somebody who is taking all of this stuff too seriously…I really don’t know what to say. The rumor mill is all for the sake of circulating noise to talk about. Kinda like a blog…just something to talk about. After all, isn’t it possible that most people realize that something titled “rumors” or something to that effect, might actually be just…rumors? Again, it’s just something to talk about.
Some of us are bored to death with topics like JJ gets doubled and tripled, JJ is tired, JJ is asked to do too much, JJ needs somebody to play with, when are we going to extend JJ, JJ’s foot might be hurting, JJ is our best player, what’s JJ doing today, is JJ on Twitter, JJ, JJ, JJ, JJ, JJ, JJ, JJ, JJ, JJ….and JJ. Oh, and Woody sucks.
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
9:03 am
Got this from HoopsWorld. Of course, last I HEARD, Jason Fleming is full of $hit. Got that from the crew of BS Alarms Inc.
In this edition of the NBA At 2: What’s the market for Mike Bibby?…Mehmet Okur willing to stay in Utah for less money…Is there smoke with Van Gundy?…Upcoming HOOPSWORLD chats…2009 NBA Playoff Lines of the Day for Tuesday.
Bibby’s Market: Atlanta Hawks point guard Mike Bibby has been given a lot of credit for helping bring the Hawks from an underachieving squad to the second round of the NBA Playoffs, but he’s also an unrestricted free agent. The Hawks feel they are on the right path to get to the next level and All-Star guard Joe Johnson would prefer they not make changes.
“It happens in the NBA,” Johnson told Sekou Smith of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. “Guys get shuffled around in this league. It’s a part of the profession we’re in.
“But I definitely think this group can get to that next level. We just have to get better individually and get better as a team.”
There is little question Bibby is probably more valuable to the Hawks than to other teams because of how much he has helped the team grow in the past season and a half. Like with Philadelphia 76ers free agent point guard Andre Miller, he will be facing a buyer’s market for his services. Today is Bibby’s 31st birthday so he probably still has a good 2-3 years of high quality play left in him. Given the Hawks alternatives at point guard aren’t that good – Acie Law hasn’t shown he is ready, free agency won’t yield them anything better, and a rookie won’t make an immediate impact – I’d expect Bibby to get his best offer from the Hawks.
He made a shade under $15 million this season though – that best offer isn’t going to touch that number. The Hawks would be smart to offer him something starting at around $7-8 million for four years, say $35 million total. That should be more than he can get anywhere else, and while it’s a pay cut it’s still the best he will be able to get.
I don’t know about some people, but I’m not thrilled with 7-8 million per year for 4 years. Not even for 3 years.
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
9:16 am
Uh-oh, here’s another one, and this one is by Travis Heath (BS Alarm Inc. rating unknown as of yet):
Fixing The Atlanta Hawks
By: Travis Heath Last Updated: 5/21/09 10:14 AM ET | 2083 times read
The Atlanta Hawks were irrelevant in the city of Atlanta and the NBA for nearly a decade until the 2007-08 season when the team finally made it back to the NBA Playoffs for the first time in nine seasons. The Hawks took another step forward in 2008-09, securing homecourt advantage in the postseason and advancing to the second round. Unfortunately for the Hawks, LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers were their reward. This led to a very quick second round exit.
All things considered, it was a good season for Atlanta. However, the Hawks have to make a number of decisions that will affect the long-term future of the franchise this summer.
What Went Wrong
After a strong start to the campaign winning their first six games, the team struggled to hang on to the fourth seed in the Eastern Conference Playoff picture by season’s end. The Hawks were inconsistent all season long. While they were a very solid home team winning 31 games, they struggled on the road winning just 16 times.
While 47 wins and an appearance in the second round of the NBA Playoffs wasn’t too shabby, no one made the mistake of calling Atlanta true title contenders. They were a good team in the East that likely would have been fighting for one of the two final playoff spots out West. (Liable to be labeled as BS).
Last summer, Josh Smith signed a five-year, $58 million offer sheet with the Memphis Grizzlies. The Hawks very quickly decided to match the offer for the young and very physically talented forward. All told, Smith’s production was down pretty much across the board this past season. He also missed a total of 13 regular season games. Perhaps most disturbing was the increasing frequency of the dustups between Smith and head coach Mike Woodson. The Hawks insisted these were no big deal, but they clearly indicated that Smith still has a lot of maturing to do should he want to live up to the big-money contract he signed prior to the season.
Acie Law was another player that was very disappointing for the Hawks this season. After selecting Law with the 11th overall pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, the Hawks were hoping Law would take a major step forward this season. That clearly didn’t happen. Instead, the Hawks are left pondering whether or not he even has a future in Atlanta.
View Travis Heath Archive What Went Right
The Hawks qualified for the second round of the NBA Playoffs for the first time since the 1997-98 season. The team’s 47 wins were 10 more than the Hawks won in 2007-08 and team’s highest total since Lenny Wilkens was running the show in Atlanta 11 seasons ago. Simply put, what fans saw this season in Atlanta was far-and-away the best basketball they have seen in over a decade.
Al Horford continued to show that he can be a dominant force around the basket both defensively and on the boards. He’s a solid offensive player but certainly still has room to improve in this area. Still, he looks to have all the makings of a legit double-double guy for the remainder of his career.
Joe Johnson qualified for his second consecutive All-Star Game last February in Phoenix and continues to be recognized by his peers as one of the most underrated perimeter players in the game. While many pundits anointed the Phoenix Suns the winner of the trade that sent Johnson to the Hawks and Boris Diaw and two future first round picks to the Suns back in August of 2005, it now appears like the Hawks may be getting the last laugh. (um, yeah because Phoenix has an even weaker front office..)
Finally, Ronald “Flip” Murray was a huge surprise for the Hawks off the bench this season. He was basically instant offense anytime Woodson put him in the game. Murray finished the season averaging over 12 points per game in just over 24 minutes of run.
Where The Hawks Go From Here
The Hawks have a total of eight players who will be free agents this summer including three of the team’s core pieces. Truth be told, the Hawks are feeling the financial pinch as much as any organization and the team’s ownership doesn’t appear to be interested in adding much additional salary this offseason. (Likely labled as BS if convenient)
Point guard Mike Bibby will be an unrestricted free agent looking to cash in with the final big contract of his career. Initial signs are that both Bibby and the Hawks would like to work something out, but it will ultimately depend on what kind of value Bibby ends up having on the open market. Forward Marvin Williams will be a restricted free agent. The Hawks are said to open to listening to potential sign-and-trade deals for him. Center Zaza Pachulia will also be an unrestricted free agent. (uh-oh! Holy Weasel Words, Batman! “are said to be” is an indication of absolute BS)
In addition to the names just mentioned, there have been rumblings that Atlanta is open to listening to offers for Josh Smith after his sub-par performance this season. However, given his talent and his youth, that would likely be a difficult decision for the Hawks to make. Don’t be surprised to see the Hawks dangle any number of players to other teams in much the same fashion the Denver Nuggets did with Marcus Camby last summer in an effort to help cut salary and acquire young talent and/or draft picks. (Holy crap, more weasel words! This is certainly BS!)
Should the Hawks indeed look to purge some of their existing players from the roster, it could be hard for the team to achieve the same level of success they did this past season. That said, it’s clear this group in Atlanta is not a championship-caliber team as currently constructed anyway, so perhaps bringing in some youth that will come with a cheaper price tag might end up being better for the long-term future of the franchise.
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
9:20 am
Hey, look what Jason Fleming said:
2005 FIRST ROUND PICKS – Restricted Free Agents
Marvin Williams, Atlanta Hawks – Without Marvin Williams the Hawks struggle, it’s as simple as that. He’s still a little raw, but he keeps improving. The thing is he and Josh Smith play very similar roles, playing the four spot without being true power forwards, and do you need to pay two of those guys on the same team? If Williams got the same deal as Smith that would mean a $4.3 million raise for him – but $10 million each seems like a bit much. Williams, in this writer’s opinion, is the better fit, so if they want to keep him they may explore trading Smith.
Huh. Well, I’ll be a son of a suck-egg mule…
Sautee
June 14th, 2009
9:55 am
Niremetal,
about this: “The area where they’re freaking clueless is what the NBA front offices are thinking.”
Got a source for that?
Or should you let us know that it was conjecture on your part?
darrell starks
June 14th, 2009
10:00 am
Happy fathers day to everyone on here.
HAPPY FATHERS DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
June 14th, 2009
10:15 am
O MY BAD FATHERS DAY NEXT WEEK.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
A Tribe Called Quest
June 14th, 2009
10:28 am
They say Shaq going to the Cavs will bring Cleveland over the hump vs. Orlando, but this is an invitation for disaster for Cleveland. I remember years back when Portland and Sacramento would think that 1 big move would bring them over the hump vs. LAL, then they forgot the rest of the conference (top echelon that is) was making big moves. In other words, Cleveland might fix their team for a matchup with Orlando by making this trade, but they will not improve their chances of beating a HEALTHY Boston team
terrell barron
June 14th, 2009
1:22 pm
My new Hawks offseason:
1.Sign Sessions or Jack
2.Go bpa at #19
3.Sign and trade Marvin to Portand for Prizbillia and a 2nd rdr
4.Trade Josh Smith and our 2nd rdr to Toronto for Bosh
5.Let Bibby, Zaza, and Solo walk
6.Re-sign Flip Murray
7.Bring back Chills
1st team: Sessions/JJ/Chills/Horford/Bosh
2nd team: Law/Flip/Mo/Hansborough/Prizbillia
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
1:46 pm
Hey! Nobody laughed at my stick-poking! Dadgummit, I’m gonna have to try harder….
Darrell Starks,
LOL! Hey, there’s nothing wrong with getting started early. But Happy Father’s Day to you in advance!
Sekou Smith
June 14th, 2009
1:59 pm
Tribe is right. Shaq to the Cavs would make things interesting but I don’t know that LeBron automatically wins the title because of it. Cleveland has to get something done immediately to win it with LeBron in uniform. There are no guarantees after the summer of 2010.
terrell barron
June 14th, 2009
2:04 pm
He’ll stay in Cleveland Sekou. It’s his hometown, and it gives him the best chance at a ring. The Knicks need a lot more than just LJ.
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
2:06 pm
They say Shaq going to the Cavs will bring Cleveland over the hump vs. Orlando, but this is an invitation for disaster for Cleveland. I remember years back when Portland and Sacramento would think that 1 big move would bring them over the hump vs. LAL, then they forgot the rest of the conference (top echelon that is) was making big moves. In other words, Cleveland might fix their team for a matchup with Orlando by making this trade, but they will not improve their chances of beating a HEALTHY Boston team.
My BS alarm is going off. Oh wait a minute, that’s just my watch. Nevermind….
I heard this was also reported on ESPN radio. Is it BS if you HEARD it was reported, but weren’t actually LISTENING to the radio YOURSELF? I get so confused.
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
2:27 pm
Terrell,
I agree. Offense alone will not get it done, for one thing. If it was all that was necessary, D’Antoni would have won it all with Phoenix, who as as potent a squad as there was at the time (pre-Shaq days, that is).
Of course, New York also has Walsh as the GM, and he realizes that they can’t just run and gun everybody to death, or they risk simply becoming the Suns (or worse, the Warriors) of the East. Always a very attractive bridesmaid, but never a bride. New York definitely needs more then LBJ. Would they be able to sign another star of the vaunted 2010 free agent class? What would it cost them? Something like that my cost them valuable role players who can help a star-led team get over the top. Guys like Nate Robinson and David Lee…
O'brien
June 14th, 2009
2:49 pm
If Shaq does end up going to the Cavs, the point is Cleveland is not standing still and just waiting for their players to get better as a team and individually (as JJ put it). Moves have to be made. Don’t just resign everybody and hope they get better. Get some extra reinforcements.
Ray,
I agree with you. If we resign Bibby, I hope its not for more than 2 years. Because his defense and penetration skills are lacking as it is. Can you imagine 2 years from now?
I wonder what kind of market is out there for Bibby? As one blogger pointed out, I think he would be a good fit for Philly. With Elton Brand down low (and Eddie Jordan’s movement offense), Bibby should get some easy shots. And Brand and Dalembert play decent man defense, so that might help to compensate for his shortcomings.
Sautee
June 14th, 2009
2:51 pm
LOL, Ray!
Hoops
June 14th, 2009
3:19 pm
Come on guys! My Papaw had a saying that fits the Hawks, “How long do you want to suck hind tit”? We have to make some changes this off season or we will finish no better than 5th next year in the East and JJ will walk!
I can’t believe we are going to resign Bibby! He was a great sign for us 1 1/2 years ago. Not now! We need a younger and more athletic PG that will play defense! Sessions is available and Acie needs to be given a chance as well.
Josh Smith can’t shoot a jump shot for crying out loud! That’s why he is always open! Horford plays inside and Josh can’t play out. Make this trade – Speedy & Josh for Bosh! Toronto would go for that trade! They know they will loose Bosh next summer. Why not get something for him?Why are we afraid to make a move?
Resign Flip, Marvin, and Zaza. Now we have a contender for the Finals! The Cavs are making plans for the Finals by getting Shaq. Why can’t we?
This lineup can be had for the same money that we are now spending:
PG-Sessions, Acie
SG-JJ, Flip
SF-Marvin, Evans
PF-Bosh, David Anderson
C-Horford, Zaza, Morris
Draft Pick-Mullens(if available), best player available, or Pendergraph
niremetal
June 14th, 2009
3:56 pm
I think y’all are missing the whole point of the BS alarm. The only BS-worthy thing you labeled above was the “are said to be” statement above. When someone is giving you opinion, then you know what you’re getting is their take on what might happen, and that it’s not necessarily based on anything more than their intuition and common sense. “Don’t be surprised if” is a preface to an opinion.
The “are said to be” statement, on the other hand, sets off my BS alarm. Who “said” that? The Hawks? Sekou? ESPN? ProBasketballNews? Some poster on Hawksquawk? If I had to guess, I’d say it was the latter-most, if any.
My test is pretty simple. If the statement is presented in terms that could serve as the basis for a defamation or libel suit, it should have a source – be it a primary source (e.g. Rick Sund) or a secondary source (e.g. Sekou, Reuters, etc). I won’t get into the requirements of defamation or libel, but “Don’t be surprised if” is an opinion statement, so it could not be defamatory. “Reportedly” and “person X is said to be” are fact statements, and therefore could be defamatory.
Of course, few people give a $hit enough about sports to file a defamation suit. But from my experience in the blogging world of sports and politics, I just find it a convenient tool to determine whether or not someone is starting a rumor instead of doing actual reporting.
Najeh Davenpoop
June 14th, 2009
4:42 pm
I don’t even think adding Shaq really solves Cleveland’s biggest problem with Orlando, which is that they can’t guard Turkoglu and Lewis at the same time. Yeah, Howard is way too athletic and strong for Ilgauskas and Varejao, but until he actually develops post moves, stopping him shouldn’t be Cleveland’s immediate concern over acquiring another athletic defensive-minded forward. I honestly think signing Trevor Ariza in free agency would make them much more dangerous to Orlando than trading for Shaq, and Ariza would be a hell of a lot cheaper too. Throw in Shaq’s recent injury history and I don’t think he alone will put them over the top.
O'brien
June 14th, 2009
5:18 pm
Najeh,
Shaq helps because then you can play Howard one on one, and Howard will have to defend Shaq on the other end. Let’s face it. Howard didnt have to play much defense against Ben Wallace, Varejao, and Big Z. And those guys did nothing to bother Howard. Shaq forces him to work more (on both ends).
That being said, I have become a Trevor Ariza fan (and some bloggers even prefer him over Marvin). I like his intensity (Marvin is too passive, and Ariza is the 4th or 5th option on that team as well). That being said, LeBron is a SF, and so is Trevor Ariza. I like your reasoning though. And thats why I would suggest Lamar Odom for Cleveland (although his inconsistency is frustrating). He is more versatile than Ariza, and he can play some PF.
Hoops,
I’m a Josh fan, but I’m a huge Hawks fan. I’m with you on the Bosh for Josh trade. I understand the risks (Josh is younger, more upside, cheaper), and Bosh is a free agent after next season. But if I’m the Hawks, I’m looking into it. I see no reason why Josh should be untradeable (or anybody else for that matter). Like Big Ray says. “As long as it makes the Hawks better, I’m all for it”.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 14th, 2009
5:25 pm
WTF I wrote a 3 paragraph long entry like 2 hours ago and it didn’t post?
Anyway, I was very impressed with what Tim Legler said on ESPN yesterday about SVG and Dwight. He said you NEVER double team anyone when you’re up 3 and there’s 20 seconds left.
More importantly, he was talking about how Dwight’s free throw hand formation is off, that he doesn’t extend the elbow. Also, he elaborated that Ewing never had a jumpshot till he worked on it and Dwight is only a back-to-the-basket player. Dwight has to learn how to hit a 12-footer from Ewing if he wants to become a more dominant and better all-around big man. Right on, Legler
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
5:33 pm
Holy crap, I really did not think that ANYBODY was taking the “BS Alarm” thing seriously, especially after what I thought was obvious humor-laden entries…
I was wrong yet again…
kwooden1
June 14th, 2009
5:39 pm
Hoops, I really like JS’s energy and effort but I would go for the Bosh trade. But I honestly don’t think it would happen. If Toronto does that trade, they will be telling their fans that next season means nothing. They would be stuck with some kind of a line-up like Evans (C), Smith (PF) and Bargnani (SF). They would lose all their inside scoring, while not addressing their defensive issues at all! Besides that, their front office would look pathetic for not even trying to keep Bosh. The longer I look at this off-season the less options I really see that we have.
terrell b, I was on the Prizbillia bandwagon not to long after the HAWKS season ended, but from what everyone has said on the blog I don’t think it would ever happen. Portland can’t afford to lose him because Oden is to injury prone.
I really think a good summer for the HAWKS would be:
1) Resigning Bibby,Flip and Solo (Total of 12M/yr)
2) Let Zaza walk
3) Wait out Marvin, match anything below (9M/per)
4) Sign and Trade Speedy + Evans for Mo Pete
5) Sign Gerald Green with the rest of our Mid-Level Exception
6) Draft Tyler H.
I don’t think this solves any of our problems, but I guess I will keep my fantasy trades to myself. (Josh Smith for Lebron James sounds good in my mind!!) My only hope for next year is Josh Smith, Marvin Williams and Al Horford take substantial steps forward. The HAWKS were top 8 in the league this year and have a lot of room for growth with their core players. They have good chemistry, if they keep Bibby. Minor offensive philosophy changes along with improved games from Smith and Horford, would immediately help this team compete better with the elite teams in the league. I’m not certain at all that the HAWKS coach will change his ways or Horford/Smith will get any better, but I can just hope.
GO HAWKS!!!
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
5:48 pm
Hoops,
Again, I’m just fine with that trade. We’d have to work out the details concerning the extra pieces, but I’m definitely a go with that trade. I don’t know how good the chances are of it happening. Toronto letting go of Bosh is sort of like us letting go of JJ, only worse for them than for us (were we to give up JJ). Reason being, we have other pieces and weapons that can be utilized and built around, even if none of them is currently as good as JJ. The only person who comes even REMOTELY close to Bosh in Toronto is Bargnani, and that’s not a fair comparison either. Meanwhile, Calderon is a good pg, but not someone to build around.
Najeh,
I agree. Cleveland could be making a mistake along the lines of the one Phoenix made, only Shaq fits Cleveland’s style better than he did/does Phoenix’s style. And you’re doubly right about the key to beating Orlando being the ability to guard both Lewis and Turkoglu simultaneously. I’ve always felt that way about them, because as good as Howard is, he doesn’t beat you by himself, and isn’t quite as dominant yet as Shaq was in his younger days. But he’s getting there, and quick. He’ll develop that jumper, I’m sure.
Here’s the deal: I think Orlando will have trouble retaining Turkoglu, and recovering from losing him would be difficult. Of course, they could go after somebody like Marvin Williams through S&T, as Niremetal has suggested.
O’brien,
I agree that the problem lies in Cleveland’s forward situation more than it does at center. They really need an upgrade at power forward. If Orlando DOES manage to retain Turkoglu, then the problem remains how to guard him and Lewis simultaneously. Varejao helps, but if he starts in the frontcourt, then you can’t bring him off the bench, where you really need him (and all you have left is Joe Smith, who can’t guard either Orlando forward). Plus, Varejao is limited offensively. Big Z is getting older. Hickson isn’t ready, and may never be the PF they need, while Lebron is clearly a lock at SF.
Shaq may indeed not be the answer, but he does give options at the center spot. Unfortunately, he can’t play any more minutes than Z can. The Cavs would have to make another move along with the Shaq move, but could they afford to after acquiring him?
As for Bibby, I don’t want him for more than 2 years (and that’s assuming we do some serious grooming of a young pg with decent minutes while he’s here). But I don’t know what his market is like elsewhere. It’s entirely possible that he stands to make the most money here, but that’s not a guarantee. Is he seeking more money per year, or more years on a contract? Does he want to get on with a contender? Hard to say, but him coming back here is just not an absolute given.
Big Ray
June 14th, 2009
5:52 pm
Kwooden1,
I agree. If no big moves are made, so much depends on our younger core players coming back better than before. And that has to be perfectly aligned with our head coach taking advantage of that, and not running everything for and through the backcourt. Of course, that’s a two-edged blade. If their roled are expanded and less pressure is put on JJ to score (and he plays less minutes), then if he doesn’t do well (or better), the “tired” and “asked to do too much” mantras are no longer there. And we just can’t have THAT…
Sautee
June 14th, 2009
6:43 pm
This is for all who propose some kind of Josh for Bosh deal:
Can any of you say that it definitely WOULDN’T be a one year rental?
And IF that’s how it ended up, would anyone here think that a one year rental of Bosh would be WORTH trading our second best player at the age of 23?
If I knew beyond all doubt that we could re-sign Bosh, I’d do that trade today.
But if Bosh flew the coop to go play, say with LeBron and Brook Lopez for Jay-Z, well, that’s a different story, eh? And what a frontcourt THAT would be.
Tough, tough call without any assurance of losing a big asset. And I can’t fathom that we’d win the title with Bosh, but stranger things have happened. We’d certainly be closer than we were this year.
So, the question is: If Bosh were a one year rental only, is it worth it to trade Josh?
O'brien
June 14th, 2009
6:50 pm
Ray,
If Toronto holds on to Bosh, and then he walks next season, what do they tell their fans? Sure, they’ll have cap space, but which big name free agent is going to sign with Toronto? And I dont see Bosh staying in Toronto.
Josh is an exciting player, and I think the Toronto fans would understand, based on his potential and his salary, and the strong possibility of Bosh walking (he refused to sign an extension). Plus if Speedy is the other piece, his contract would be expiring, so they still have some cap room next season.
Melvin
June 14th, 2009
7:01 pm
Sautee,
I think the Josh for Bosh thing has been blown way out of propotions on this blog. It has been mention so much until I think folks really think the deal is on the table…
Astro Joe
June 14th, 2009
8:29 pm
I agree that Cleveland had a bigger problem defending the 3 than they did the post. At the same time, you really can’t adjust your roster to defend Rashard and Hedu and then use that same set of defenders aginst KG and Pierce. I wonder if they could convince Shawn Marion to take the MLE. He and LeBron could certainly defend the Magic tandem.
Melvin
June 14th, 2009
8:31 pm
Sund,
Here’s some free draft advise. Please do not pick Wayne Ellington. I scouted him and he leaves much to desire…If you are going to pick a Tarheel then it should be Lawson only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvFzGlVkLqc&feature=PlayList&p=F916CE7D0BB19C04&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22
Sautee
June 14th, 2009
8:35 pm
Niremetal,
About this:
“If the statement is presented in terms that could serve as the basis for a defamation or libel suit, it should have a source – be it a primary source (e.g. Rick Sund) or a secondary source (e.g. Sekou, Reuters, etc).”
OK, Fair enough, and good job explaining why YOU need a BS alarm.
Is this a potentially defamatory statement? “The area where they’re freaking clueless is what the NBA front offices are thinking.”
Are you not “defaming” the DraftExpress site with a specious claim? Or do you have a source? Or “proof” that they are “freaking clueless”.
Or if it’s your OPINION that they are “freaking clueless” shouldn’t you have told us it was your opinion? You made it as a statement of fact. Can you explain?
Blast
June 14th, 2009
9:01 pm
Down by 9? It’s slipping away from the Magic.
TskOoOo
June 14th, 2009
9:04 pm
Big Ray, it’s not that we don’t find your BS Alarm thing funny.
It’s that we don’t find you funny.
Markson
June 14th, 2009
9:14 pm
KOBE = ADULTERER, RAPIST, ARROGANT, WHINER, SABOTAGER.
HE CHEATED ON HIS WIFE
HE CHEATED ON HIS WIFE
HE CHEATED ON HIS WIFE
HE CHEATED ON HIS WIFE
HE CHEATED ON HIS WIFE
The back of TskOoOo's mind
June 14th, 2009
9:16 pm
Let’s see, I haven’t posted in a while, and I want to get attention…….
I know, I’ll slam Big Ray and everybody will think I’m soooooo cool.
HawkKingBibby
June 14th, 2009
9:24 pm
HAHAHAHAAA I KNOW WHO YOUR FILL IN THE BLANK PG IS SEKOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its Rafer Alston. I wonder if Speedy and 19 gets it done?
Najeh Davenpoop
June 14th, 2009
9:31 pm
“That being said, I have become a Trevor Ariza fan (and some bloggers even prefer him over Marvin).”
I know you didn’t present this as your own opinion, so don’t take this as a personal response, but I think if Marvin was in a well-defined, limited role like Ariza, he would be just as effective. It goes back to one of my biggest criticisms of Woody, that nobody in the front court is given a defined role in the offense. Don’t get me wrong — Ariza has really impressed me in this postseason and I think he would be able to give any contending team 25-30 quality minutes per game, either as a starter or off the bench. But a big part of that comes from the fact that the system calls for him to do two or three specific things (spot-up 3-point shooting, disrupting passing lanes, and man-to-man defense) that he’s really good at doing, while limiting the situations in which he would have to do other things. Constantly being put in a spot where he can utilize his strengths also means his confidence skyrockets and he becomes more aggressive.
When I suggested Ariza for the Cavs, I pictured him coming off the bench as part of a small lineup in which LeBron would be guarding the other team’s PF, when the Cavs played teams like the Magic (or the Hawks for that matter) with non-traditional PFs. Considering his spot-up shooting ability, he could also contribute some minutes at the 2. But no doubt, Lamar Odom or Shawn Marion could address their inability to guard the Magic front court as well. Like Astro Joe said, though, Ariza wouldn’t help them defend more traditional lineups like Boston unless they were willing to play LeBron extended minutes at power forward, and although he’s probably strong enough and athletic enough to guard the Garnetts of the league, it probably wouldn’t be the smartest way to use him.
“I think Orlando will have trouble retaining Turkoglu, and recovering from losing him would be difficult.”
The way their system is set up, it would be damn near impossible to recover from that, since everything runs through Turkoglu offensively. Who knows if a healthy Jameer Nelson would take over the offense-initiating responsibilities (side note: I think Nelson is a little overrated) but they would have to seriously reconfigure their offense to compensate for potentially losing Turkoglu. Really, if salaries are not taken into account, the Magic should get rid of Lewis before they lose Turkoglu, but Lewis’ immovable contract won’t allow that to happen. The criticism of Magic GM Otis Smith over the Lewis contract has decreased a little this year, but if that results in Turkoglu leaving, he’s going to look like a complete fool.
Melvin
June 14th, 2009
10:20 pm
I wonder if the Hawks get Woodson one of those Phil Jackson big chairs would that improve his coaching ability. At the least, he could sit down with his arms folded…