Dollars and sense
Long faces might be the norm if the Hawks don't do the right things this summer.
HAWKSVILLE – We apologize in advance for interrupting your viewing of the NBA Finals with hypothetical questions about the Hawks, but admit it, you’ve seen enough of the Los Angeles Lakers and Orlando Magic to last all summer.
But what if Mike Bibby moves on?
And Zaza Pachulia, too?
What if Flip Murray finds a new home?
And Josh Childress stays in Greece?
What if all these hypothetical scenarios we’ve been speaking of recently go up in smoke between the draft and training camp?
What if the Hawks can’t keep their team together because of finances, dumb luck and the aggressive pursuit of their free agents by other teams?
Like most of you, I’ve (foolishly) been operating under several assumptions the past few weeks. But after speaking with several NBA players, coaches and other sources around the league over the last week, it seems we’ve all been a bit too optimistic about the chances of all these guys reuniting next season.
“Unless I’m mistaken, getting all these guys in uniform for next season will cost a whole lot more than the Hawks are used to spending,” one Eastern Conference front office man told me Monday afternoon. “Check their roster and see how many guys they spent serious money on. It’s a short list. They inherited Bibby’s big deal and now that’s gone. They signed Joe [Johnson] and Josh [Smith] to their deals. Beyond that, there wasn’t a single guy on their roster they spent mid-level money on, not one, and that says something.”
When I asked him to elaborate, he had an interesting take what we’ve watched the past few years, the last two in particular.
“They got more out of their money than a lot of other teams these last two seasons,” he said. “That’s good while it lasts. It just doesn’t last forever. Sooner or later you have to pay to win in this league. The Hawks have gotten away without paying that price the past two years. They’ve done some things that their payroll suggests they shouldn’t have. But those days are probably over, because the teams they leapfrogged in the standings the past two years are not going to stay down forever.”
There's a possibility Mike Bibby and Josh Childress have worn Hawks jerseys for the last time in their NBA careers.
That’s probably true. But maybe they just made wise decisions about how to spend. They didn’t spend the kind of money championship teams do, but you have to crawl before you walk. And the Hawks crawled for years.
One player pointed to last summer’s free agent season as proof that the Hawks didn’t exactly swing for the fences and insisted that their frugal ways will come back to haunt them eventually, perhaps as soon as this summer.
“They waited until the last minute on [Smith] and had to wait for Memphis to put something on the table to get a deal done,” he said. “They lost the other Josh to Greece and then filled the holes with role players. Let’s be real man, and I’m not disrespecting anybody but signing Randolph Morris, Othello Hunter and Thomas Gardner doesn’t translate into championship moves. That sounds more like a team worried about spending some real money. And to players, that’s the kind of franchise you don’t want to deal with when you’re a free agent.”
That’s the real question for the Hawks this summer. Are they going to spend the money required to compete at the level they’ve become accustomed to the past two years?
This summer is about dollars and sense. The Hawks have to spend their cash wisely or all the work they’ve done the past few years could disappear by Labor Day.
Keeping Bibby, if that’s what the Hawks intend to do, won’t be easy. Anyone expecting Bibby to work for anything less than the mid-level is dreaming. In a league where starting point guards are at a premium (and starters that shoot as well as Bibby command even more attention), the price usually starts at the mid-level and rises. The key in the Bibby situation will be the length of the contract. If three years works for both sides (and I can’t see why it would not), then I can see the negotiations having some legs. If not, get ready for a divorce on the grounds of irreconcilable (financial) differences.
Pachulia clearly wants to come back here. He said as much during our conversation last week. But he’s been here before, in free agent land, so he knows what a player wants doesn’t always jive with the reality of his situation. Unlike when the Hawks nabbed him from Milwaukee four years ago, teams aren’t spending as freely as they were then. Still, Pachulia was a bargain four years ago at $4 million per season. He’s a bargain at that price now if the Hawks can swing it. But with the lack of quality bigs running around the league these days, that $4 million price tag might not be enough to retain Pachulia’s services.
Murray’s destined for a substantial raise from the $1.5 million the Hawks paid him last season. You don’t put together the type of season he did without seeing a surge in interest for your services. The Hawks have the benefit of being the one team in the league willing to take a chance on him last year. But sentiment crashes into reality and loses all the time in the NBA, particularly during free agency. If the Hawks want to keep Murray, a serious raise is in order.
Childress added to a bench that includes Pachulia, Murray, Mo Evans and whatever player the Hawks could take with the 19th pick in the June draft would be a massive upgrade over what they used during a 47-win season. But three different sources I’ve spoken to in recent days insist that they don’t expect Childress to return to the NBA this summer (he has until July 15 to opt out of his Greek contract or remain there for another season). The dynamics of his situation in the NBA haven’t changed from last summer. He’s still a restricted free agent and would be subject to dealing with a Hawks organization that couldn’t get a deal done with him last summer. So it was a serious miscalculation of mine to blindly assume he’d bolt Europe for the comfort of the states.
“I don’t know why he would come back,” a Western Conference scout told me. “There’s so much uncertainty in the league this summer. Teams are holding back because of the economy and plotting for the summer of 2010. Plus, he’s still bound by restricted free agency, which means he can’t really come back and shop around for the best situation. If the Hawks didn’t get a deal done with him last summer I don’t see any way they get one done now. No way.”
Two years into his NBA career no one is sure if Acie Law IV is the answer at point guard for the Hawks.
With Childress subtracted from the potential mix, that leaves the Hawks with gaping holes on the roster heading into the draft and free agency. And from all the conversations I’ve had, the Hawks are torn between using the 19th pick and Speedy Claxton’s contract (along with other potential considerations) to grab an established point guard or gambling that the player they deem worthy will still be available at 19.
Another split, from what I’ve gathered, is that there remains some debate as to whether any of the point guards available in this draft are better prospects at the position than Acie Law IV, who despite having spent two years on the roster still has to answer major questions about his readiness to not only be a potential starter but a solid rotation player.
The Hawks’ previous front office regime was notoriously unimpressed by point guards in past drafts. Chris Paul was “too small,” Deron Williams worried them because his “body looked too soft” and Rajon Rondo was a “reach” with the fifth pick, just to highlight a few of the explanations given for passing on three big time NBA starters at the position. That sort of faulty logic led the Hawks to draft picks like Shelden Williams (a reach if ever there was one) and botched free agent signings like Claxton (who was Paul’s backup when the Hawks whisked him away from the Hornets for a cool $25 million).
I won’t pretend to speak for Hawks GM Rick Sund, who has not indicated that he has any sort of prejudice against rookie point guards. But I also won’t assume that he’ll address the Hawks’ point guard situation in the draft.
There’s just so much work to be done in such a short period of time. For once, I can honestly say I wouldn’t want to be the Hawks’ general manager right now.
MY SPLIT SCREEN IS WORKING THESE DAYS. I’M WATCHING THE FINALS, TOO. I’m watching Orlando suffer through the same things the Hawks did when they faced Cleveland in the Eastern Conference semifinals and the same thing the Cavaliers did when they fell to the Magic in Eastern Conference finals.
Some teams just present matchup nightmares for other teams. The Magic and Lakers are about as evenly matched as two teams could be in the Finals. Spot for spot up and down the rotation there are compelling matchups (my man Mickael Pietrus did his thing again, pushing Kobe Bryant late, sinking two free throws in the final 30 seconds to help seal his team’s Game 3 win). You can’t ask for much more than that at this stage of the season, save for the somewhat tiresome Van Gundy family reunion going on every game night (Stan’s a riot from the national anthem to the post game presser but I’ve listened to just about all I can take from Jeff on the broadcast).
One thing I noticed that’s been bothersome I have to ask you to weigh in on. Is there a more disappointing player in all of these playoffs than Andrew Bynum? I know the Lakers’ big man has already had to battle back from two serious knee injuries in his young career, but he doesn’t have any bounce at all.
He’s a shell of the dude the Lakers refused to give up in any deal a couple years back and for the life of me, I don’t see why. I don’t see anything in Bynum that would make him untouchable other than he’s a legitimate 7-footer. And these days, that’s just not enough.
Shooters like Ellington could find themselves in demand on draft night.
Like most people whose team of interest is already do for the season, my attention has shifted dramatically in the direction of the NBA draft.
I know it’s fool’s gold, thinking teams are going to find answers to all their problems in a shallow draft. But what else can we bank on?
Combining my two pet topics of the month, I came up with another theory that requires your input.
After watching the Magic shoot a blistering (and Finals record ) 62.5 percent from the floor to win Game 3, I wonder if some teams will have the guts to rethink their draft strategy and identify the best shooters available?
For a team like the Hawks that would mean giving serious consideration to a player like North Carolina’s Wayne Ellington with that 19th pick. If Ellington’s still on the board, chances are there won’t be a better shooter or offensive player the Hawks could take in that range. I know he doesn’t address a particular position need for the Hawks (point guard or center) but he does address a skill need (the Hawks are in desperate need of more quality shooters).
Some teams aren’t going to wait until the draft to start adding shooters. Philadelphia pulled off a trade Tuesday for one of the league’s best shooters, stealing Jason Kapono from the Raptors for Reggie Evans.
Kapono, even in limited minutes, can change the game for the 76ers just by parking on the perimeter and posing as a deep threat. That’s a weapon teams will need, especially in the improving Eastern Conference. I suspect this won’t be the last trade of this kind we’ll see between now and draft night. Teams are going to be forced to explore every option they can to improve without adding salary.
Finally, and before I forget, the best NBA news of the week comes not from the Finals or the draft but from the real plague of the league – brutal officiating. We’ll have three fewer relics to pick on next year if this report in the Boston Globe is true.
Reportedly Jimmy Clark, Luis Grillo and Jack Nies are taking their combined 73 years of experience/service to the retirement village with them. Adios fellas, the hecklers will miss you.
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
514 comments Add your comment
Melvin
June 15th, 2009
2:15 pm
Nire,
I agree that the consensus in 2005 was that Marvin was going to be an all/super star player but unfortuately for the Hawks. He’s not the player that they thought he was going to be (at least up to this point). Hindsight, if they had to do that draft over. I bet the Bucks wouldn’t pick Bogut number 1 either. If thats the case, then both teams miss out on that draft….
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
2:27 pm
Darrell, I wouldn’t make that trade sorry. You say the offense would be better, but how much would that affect the overall game if the defense is sucking? If you used those same pieces to get a better defensive center, instead of a scoring power forward, the offense would be better any way. Its a lot easier to score when you get stops, than it is when you’re taken the ball out after scored possessions. Look at Washington, they always had a better offense than Atlanta, still couldn’t beat them because of defense. If you’re trying to advance further in the playoffs, you don’t do it by trading defensive players for offensive players.
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
2:47 pm
Ray, I respect that. But think about this. Eric Snow, Jameer Nelson, Alston, Kenny Smith, Rondo, Fisher, and Andre Miller, are those not serviceable point guards? Aside from Tony Parker, who was the last point guard to win MVP of the FINALS (I’m thinking probably Thomas almost 20 years ago)? Gerald Green and the others you mentioned can’t defend anything, other wise he would have a job.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
2:56 pm
Niremetal,
I’ve see the article before. It amuses me to no end that you use it, and I’m sure you can figure out why, after all the noise you’ve made about websites and their articles. An article is no guarantee that “Every GM in the league would have taken Marvin 2nd, and some would have taken him 1st.” That is nothing more than an opinion that you have. Apparently Milwaukee passed on him for a position of need: center. There is no FACT that proves that Marvin would have gone second with any GM in the league, article or not. What, did the author of that article poll all the league’s GMs to get that info? It’s an educated guess, but a guess nonetheless.
And I can’t for the life of me understand why Roy Williams, as great a college coach as he is, would bring such an awesome player off the bench all year long. He must have missed the memo…Either that, or Marvin wasn’t good enough to start. But that is neither here nor there.
Since you brought that article up, I decided to see what they said about Chris Paul. Well, turns out they said he was a better prospect than Baron Davis was, and the best pg prospect since Jason Kidd. Hmmph. “Merely very good” indeed…
Once more, I think it was a bad decision. We needed a pg, a leader (because we damn sure didn’t have that), and a floor general. So if I’m reading that article prior to the draft like a good little GM, do I pass on the best pg prospect since Jason Kidd for a small forward who “projects” to be a superstar, when I already have two or three good ones?
Name me the last superstar small forward who led his team to a championship. Lebron might be the first, but he’s not there yet. I seem to recall a particularly talented SF/PF type who did very well in the league. No rings. Not even close. His name was Glenn Robinson.
Just my opinion…I don’t agree with the logic of it. And we’ve seen things happen in the draft often enough to know that regardless of what an article says, something else may happen.
Icycle
June 15th, 2009
3:13 pm
Big Ray,
Marvin didn’t need to start. His team won the championship. but I forgot: you know everything
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
3:19 pm
When drafted Marvin wasn’t only projected a SF. And last I check Garnett, Pierce, Bryant, Duncan, Kemp, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Bird, Pippen, MJ, and more all lead their teams to the Finals. Marvin was projected as being able to play 3 positions. On the court, Marvin is still in the top 3 of the best in that draft. Its just been his aggressiveness that has been slow to come around. Could it had been better yes. But it wasn’t a waste of a pick.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
3:19 pm
Ramon,
Why does everybody go to the extreme like that? I never said anything about a point guard winning the NBA Finals MVP. I don’t want that, and I don’t think we need it. Just wanted a good point guard, and we missed on that twice over. Yes, a serviceable point guard is fine if you have stars at other positions. Do we have stars at other positions? Other than JJ, the answer is no. Anyway, I feel that the position is very pivotal.
Anyway, Gerald Green and James Singleton, among many others simply illustrate that athletic swingmen can be had in abundance. Serviceable point guards that fit your offense and can lead a team are not as easy to come by.
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
3:24 pm
Big Ray, your comment about serviceable point guards that fits your offense is the perfect thing reason why it was ok not to draft them at that time. Woody didn’t (and still doesn’t) have an offense. Green and Singleton are athletes, not athletic basketball players, otherwise they would both be employed. One thing people forget about in that draft was the fact that Marvin had the better character record on his side. When being compared to Grant Hill, that was a huge thing that went to marketability.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
3:30 pm
Icycle,
Clearly you don’t understand what I was getting at. Of course, the fact that I wasn’t talking to you might have something to do with it. And if I knew everything, I would be doing something more productive than blogging. But I do love your logic: Marvin didn’t have to start. His team won the championship. What was your point? Adam Morrison didn’t have to start for the Lakers either. His team won the championship.
Ding…
Khao$
June 15th, 2009
3:35 pm
Aight Sekou, Chad Ford is reporting the Hawks are trying to trade Smith. What is your intel saying?
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
3:44 pm
Ramon,
I have to agree with your last post completely. Gerald Green is with the Mavs (can’t remember where Singleton is, maybe Europe), but I can’t figure out what his issue is. Must be mental.
Gotta give Marvin credit for being the kind of guy he is. Great character. I think the pundits/experts comparing him to Grant Hill was unfair, but these things happen. Prior to injury, Grant Hill was about as versatile a superstar as there was in the NBA. He was freakin’ awesome. Capable of averaging 8 boards and 7 assists along with 21 or more points, he was a better and much more athletic version of Joe Johnson BEFORE there was Joe Johnson. Unfortunately for us, and for Marvin, he’s just not that kind of guy, though he will probably prove to be better than he’s showing us right now. Grant Hill’s impact was immediate.
newkid
June 15th, 2009
3:48 pm
Any of you cats hear Phil Jackson last night describe the re-building of the Lakers since 2005? I think he said Walton and Kobe were the only players on the ‘05 squad still around for the ‘09 championship celebration. He mentioned Kupchak (UNC) moving players who didn’t have the commitment to put in the work to win a championship and building a team of coachable players who were totally about winning the Larry O’Brien trophy (gorgeous, wasn’t it?).
Re-building to be ‘competitive’ means you’re satisfied with putting a few more butts in the seats (or in the case of Mr Sund, just getting through the 1st round), while being careful you don’t end up on financial relief. It sets you on a path to get ‘talent’ like Sheldon Williams, Marvin Williams (UNC), Speedy Claxton, and a host of very low to minimum salary players like Radmo and Solomon Jones, and a refusal to release an unimaginative, ineffective head coach because you can’t (or won’t) incur the costs of carrying his salary while you pay a more capable alternative to do the job you were unrealistically wishing he would do on the cheap. Building to win the O’Brien trophy puts you on a path that gets you a $12 million per annun head coach (tops in the biz), and a talent evaluation system that directs you to players like Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Trevor Ariza, and others that take you 5+ million above the luxury tax threshold, but returns a championship parade in mid-June and an almost guaranteed sellout for the entire ‘09/’10 season.
And we the fans – and sports writers (where’s Atlanta’s version of Cosell?) – have gotten so satisfied with the ‘re-building to be competitive’ approach that we wax poetic about how the draft is so much about luck more than skilled talent evaluation; how prohibitably expensive it is to get the proper talent to win the O’Brien trophy; the wisdom of continuing to hold on to one favored player or another hoping against hope that ONE DAY he’ll reach some imaginary potential; about how much the ASG’s endless in-fighting is wreaking havoc with the financial ability to really put together a winner; and all sorts of other fantasies that – perhaps inadvertently – rationalize the repeated failures of the organization to build a championship calibre side.
No matter how it’s cut, sliced, and parsed, the naked truth is our guys have been proper failures in the pursuit of the O’Brien trophy (what’s it been, about 50 years), and sorry to say there doesn’t appear to be an end in sight. Where are you Mr. Blank?
Icycle
June 15th, 2009
3:56 pm
And I can’t for the life of me understand why Roy Williams, as great a college coach as he is, would bring such an awesome player off the bench all year long.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
3:58 pm
Ramon,
I agree that Marvin was and is rated as a “combo forward.” But a power forward he is NOT, and not by any stretch of the imagination. His game screams SF, despite his size.
As for the guys you mentioned, I’ll give you a friendly argument on them:
MJ (a SG) led his teams to titles with the help of Pippen. Pippen would not and could not have done it alone. He never even came close once the days of him and MJ were over, and certainly didn’t when MJ was out (when his father died). Garnett is a PF, and he led the Celtics to a championship, as we see Paul Pierce could not do it prior to his arrival, and was not able to do it this year when Garnett was missing. You could argue that Pierce led his team (in scoring at least), but it still remains that without Garnett…he couldn’t even reach the East Finals.
Barkley, Malone, Duncan, and Kemp. All power forwards. Arguably, Kemp didn’t lead his team to the finals. Gary Payton did, with Kemp’s help. Payton was the unquestioned leader (or so I saw it). Kobe Bryant is a SG just like MJ. The only guy I’d say you were right on was Larry Bird, who was one of the most unique combo forwards of all time. Of course, he also had help from Parrish, McHale, and the rest of that awesome crew.
Beyond that, I think the first SF who unquestionably leads his team to the Finals was Lebron James. He did it once, so far.
Finally, I agree that Marvin was NOT a waste of a pick. I just don’t think he was the best one, and never did in the first place. But he’s a good player. Just not as good (at least yet) as we hope/need him to be.
SaulRunigan
June 15th, 2009
4:02 pm
The Hawks should trade Marvin Williams for Rafer Alsten since Rafer can’t seem to get the playing time he wants in Orlando. Plus with Jameer Nelson returning next year, Rafer will waste away on the bench. I think the Hawks should attempt to obtain three players in the off-season: 1) Rafer Alsten, 2) Antonio McDyess and 3) Amare Stoudemire. Acquiring those three guys while dumping Bibby and Marvin Williams should all but guarantee the Hawks win the NBA title next season.
Icycle
June 15th, 2009
4:27 pm
Big Ray you don’t make any sense. And what is a ding?
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
4:29 pm
What is with this trading Josh Smith rumor?
Woodson is likely gone after this year (I think?), Smoove was our best player in the playoffs, and if he could develop a d@mn jumpshot might be a top 10 player in the next 18 months. Trade Bibby, Marvin, or Horford, unless you can get Amare or Bosh
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
4:35 pm
While I have no problem seconding Clyde’s mention of Ken Strickland for Blogger of the Year…
But I’m going to go with Newkid…
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
4:41 pm
Big Ray, I agree with that. At the time, I wanted them to pick Chris Paul. But if not Paul, Marvin was my second choice. I won’t lie, I was one who saw Marvin’s potential and rated it higher than Deron who was (I think) the 3rd leading scorer on his team. And after seeing how much Deron struggled against UNC, I didn’t think he would be quick enough to be an all star.
You stated Hill’s impact was immediate, and you’re correct. And by no means, is Williams even close to what Hill was pre-injury. However, Hill was a 4 year starter, (I may be wrong). Four years of college and I have no reason to believe Marvin wouldn’t have been the number one pick when he came out, even over Durant and Oden.
All I’m saying is, I’d rather have Smooth, Williams, and Horford (adding in another veteran center), than to have one Deron or CP3. To be honest, with the right point guard, and more quickness by Marvin, that could be a potent line up as is now.
Astro Joe
June 15th, 2009
4:46 pm
Here’s an excerpt from ESPN.com:
The Hawks have had no problem finding teams interested in Smith. The issue is the whopping $6 million trade kicker attached to his contract. The trade kicker essentially would require the team that trades for Smith to pay him the $6 million immediately. In this economic climate, many owners will balk at the payment.
“You are going to see very few owners willing to do things like that anymore,” one GM said. “I’m not saying he’s impossible to trade. There are a few owners like Paul Allen, James Dolan, Mark Cuban and maybe Daniel Gilbert who would pay the money. But there aren’t many.”
In case you don’t recognize the names, they’re speculating that Portland, Knicks, Dallas and Cleveland’s owners may be willing to take on the extra payment for Smith. And the trade kicker would have been placed in the contract by Memphis and was likely to discourage the Hawks from matching. Of course, Sund matched the offer sheet in about 30 seconds, so it did nothing to discourage the Hawks.
Manny/Nire, does the trade kicker count toward the amount of the returning salaries? In other words, would Sund have to get within 25% of Smith’s base of around $11M or $17M? I assume the $11M but I’m not sure.
fudd21
June 15th, 2009
4:49 pm
Sekou,
Chad Ford says the Hawks have been working hard the past few weeks to find a taker for Smith. Maybe Sund has been reading the blog and working on a trade with Toronto for Bosh. Your thoughts?
ILL-logical
June 15th, 2009
4:57 pm
First, the rumor was Marvin on a sign and trade for CASH; then it was Joe to Philly for Dalember and Young; now it is Josh for whoever will take this salary. True or not none of this sounds like an organization without any asperations but to survive financially until they can sell out (legally this time).
Not good. Not good at all. Maybe the Woody/Joe faction is threatening to bolt unless Josh goes and remember Amare stated in his press conference that Atlanta wanted him badly(sic).
Maybe this is what Mr. Bradley has been hinting at with his twice featured story on Joe vs. Josh trades?
Will Atlanta ever have a winning professional franchise?
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
4:59 pm
What exactly is a trade kicker? Does the 6 mill mean a team has to pay Smoove that up front?
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
5:01 pm
ILL, these are all baseless trade rumors.
NBA Experts/insiders know that this year’s draft sucks and that the finals were pretty dull, so they’ve had time to speculate rumors. Any NBA site/ESPN can come up with some retarded rumor like Marvin + Acie for Richard Jefferson. Remember the now infamous Steven A. Smith said that Smoove disliked Woody so much (last summer) that there was no way he’d be back? That’s Steven A., one of the most knowledgeable NBA people out there.
Everyone calm down
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
5:08 pm
Sure sund go ahead. Trade 23 year old J-Smoove. I’ll be the first one to Crucify you in every way possible. Somebody tell Clyde to fire up the T-Shirts. If Smoove leaves then Bibby has to go too. Smoove is the only person who covers for Bibby inability to stay in front of his assignment with his weak-side help/Blocking. Besides, he gets his four assists per game by lobs of pick n’ roll plays w/Smoove.
No Josh=Useless Bibby…….I’m just sayin’.
terrell barron
June 15th, 2009
5:14 pm
Hedo is looking for 4 yr 40 mill. I’d like to see him playing point-forward for the Hawks. I’d rather pay him 10 mil. a year opposed to paying Bibby or Marvin 7 or 8 mil. a year.
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
5:19 pm
Ray,
I use that article because it’s representative. I remember Googling about a year ago and looking at the mock drafts that were posted before the lottery (i.e. before anyone knew who would hold the #2 overall pick) and all but one of them had Marvin at #1 or #2. You know I wasn’t just using that article because it was the only one that said it – I did it because it encapsulated the consensus in 30 words. There were more than a few mocks that had Gerald Green ranked ahead of Deron and Paul early on. The thing to remember is that Marvin STAYED at #2 through April, May, and June while Green and Granger slid down on people’s draft boards.
As for him not starting in college, it’s misleading to use that as a strike against him. He was a super-sixth man for UNC, kinda like Manu is for San Antonio or Detlef was for the Pacers of old. You gonna hold it against the young John Havlicek too? Hell, you don’t even have to look at hall of famers. You can just look at JT in Dallas, or even Tyronn Lue here (remember that Royal Ivey “started over him”). I’m prodding you for a reason. You know that saying “why didn’t he start” isn’t even telling half the story.
He played starter’s minutes. His coach just decided that he was better used as a jolt of energy off the bench, which seemed to work pretty damned well – a fact that prompted more than a few people around here to question why Woody didn’t try using him in the same way. I STILL don’t get why we don’t try that with him. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t take it as disrespect. And if he leaves this summer, I wouldn’t be shocked if some other team used him that way again.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
5:23 pm
I agree, Terrell…
I would pay Andre Miller that money over Mike Bibby. Turkoglu is freaking huge, can play 4 positions, and is a deadly shooter at the end of games. If we let Bibs walk and S&T or let Marv walk, we have 20 mill of cap space over last year? Don’t forget Speedy’s 5.5 mill…. I don’t know if Turk can produce like this for 4 more years though. But the great thing is that HEDO CAN PRODUCE HIS OWN OFFENSE. HE DOES NOT NEED A POINT GUARD. I don’t know how well he and Joe would get along though. Our shot distribution would probably be: 20 FGA for Joe, 20 FGA for Hedo, 5 for Horford, and so on
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
5:26 pm
And Ray, if you’re gonna mock me by demanding that I provide sources to it or get back into my methodology, I’ll just tell you now what I said to Sautee – I’m done arguing those points. You know I’m not BSing about Marvin’s projected draft position being top 2 from the NCAA tourney onward, so don’t get into it with me on that. I’m not gonna bite anymore.
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
5:29 pm
Astro,
Is that from an “Insider” article? I don’t see it on the Hawks’ ESPN page…
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
5:32 pm
Astro,
Until June 30, the BYC rules apply to Smoove but not thereafter. Sadly, the trade kicker rules are the one thing I just can’t seem to wrap my mind around still. Manny, do you get how those things work?
A Tribe Called Quest
June 15th, 2009
5:40 pm
nire,
Realgm
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
5:43 pm
OH MY GAWD!!!! GameTime has gone BONKERS over on youtube!!!! He just made 08-09 Mixes for all the Hawks starters+Flip….I think I just wet my pants lol.
LINKS COMING SOON!!!!!!!!!!
Sautee
June 15th, 2009
5:51 pm
Niremetal,
So you can say ANYTHING YOU WANT on the blog, and because you refuse to argue, then you have “carte blanche” to blather without accountability?
Good luck with that attitude in the courtroom, buddy.
And know that some of us will STILL bring up seeming contradictory statements that you make. If you don’t care to argue, so be it. It will just weaken the very points you are attempting to make.
Others bring up something from an article on the web and you IMMEDIATELY try to discredit the source, by saying not to “risk” info from some of these “new” sites. But when an article from one of the “old” sites that YOU think will bolster YOUR point is found, you use it proudly.
Go ahead, be a hypocrite. But don’t think it doesn’t affect your credibility.
cp
June 15th, 2009
6:03 pm
I saw the discussion with ray and some others. Green and Singleton both play for the Mavs. ray made a great point about those athletic forwards or swing-men or whatever you want to call them. If you remember Marv was called a once in 10 years type forward in the draft. Guess what, Rudy Gay was in the next draft. It is a lot easier to find a athletic small forward than a pg that fits your system. At one point we had Marv, Chillz, Donta Smith, and Josh Smith. And to add onto the Marvin discussion. If you watched those Carolina games it was easy to see why Marvin came off the bench, Jawad Williams was actually a better player. He played for Cleveland this past season. He was a underrated starter on that championship team.
ILL-logical great post. I have read so many rumors about guys on this team being traded that I just chalk it up to summer boredom. However the Marvin trade has been out there more. If we take a guy like Earl Clark this year I would not be shocked if we do try to sign and trade Marvin. It is going to be a crazy summer.
Ken Strickland
June 15th, 2009
6:03 pm
It amazes me how quickly some of you will juMP to the wildest conclusions based on nothing but conjecture. Didn’t the Suns, and a lot of you, think Shaq would take the Suns to a championship? Look at how that turned out. The Cavaliers are a team that attackes the basket, and Shaq would make that much more difficult by clogging up the middle. Shaq could cause the same chemistry problems for Cleveland that EBrand caused for Philly.
Even though HC PJackson had a solid starting 5, and a 6th man supreme in LOdom, Isn’t it amazing how he still managed to develop and utilize so many of his young, talented bench players throughout the regular season and the playoffs? Developing and relying on his young bench players thoughout the regular season and playoffs didn’t stop his Lakers from dominating and winning the NBA championship. HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THESE FACTS WILL GO UNRECOGNIZED AND/OR UNAPPRECIATED BY OUR OWN SHORTSIGHTED HC?
darrell starks
June 15th, 2009
6:04 pm
Ramon you have to understand that in order for you to go to the next level you have to have atleast 2 or 3 stars and marvin is to awkward and horford have no low post move in the post he is to mechanical and that being said everyone is always pointing the finger at josh on defense he give more weakside help than any player on the team if josh play with in him self and play above the rim he could be a beast in the nba that can be coach and i do not trade that type of talent away we are trying to win titles.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
6:15 pm
You won’t say that after I post these links!!!! Besides, our starters ONLY played 20 something games together as a whole….injuries……
Draft Ellington and Graan and Bring everybody else back….Ok Forget Gerald Green…Just Sign Anthony Parker….oh and I take Back what I said about Bibby earlier.
Big Ray
June 15th, 2009
6:27 pm
Ramon,
That is about as honest and reasonable a point of view as I’ve seen on the subject. And I can certainly understand your thoughts in that last paragraph. Well, here’s to hoping we solve our pg situation in a reasonable way. All I really want is a guy who is the best fit, and somebody we can count on in that spot for years to come. I don’t like doing 1-and-a-half year rentals or crusty vets who can’t give you much. We’ll see what happens.
Niremetal,
Niremetal,
I’m not going all over this again, and I’m done explaining my position. The comments I made about Marvin not starting were of a suggestive nature, and clearly the suggestion never hit it’s intended mark, despite the fact that you arrived at some conclusions that I also arrived at. It’s pointless to tie both sets of thoughts in right now, as you are headed in another direction altogether.
As for the article you used. It was representative of what various media personnel, pundits, experts, etc were thinking. It was NOT representative of what was in the minds of League Execs at that point. For anybody to suggest that it was, would be misleading. That was my point. League Execs play all sorts of games when it comes to draft prospects, and if they came to a consensus about any particular draft pick, you could just about bet that each and every one of them is working some kind of angle, and is not giving you the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That’s all I have to say about it at this point.
“He played starter’s minutes. His coach just decided that he was better used as a jolt of energy off the bench, which seemed to work pretty damned well – a fact that prompted more than a few people around here to question why Woody didn’t try using him in the same way. I STILL don’t get why we don’t try that with him. I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t take it as disrespect. And if he leaves this summer, I wouldn’t be shocked if some other team used him that way again.”
I’ll give you one reason why. Woody did not want either pg. He did want Marvin. He got Marvin. Marvin’s a #2 pick. You don’t draft a guy #2 to be your sixth man, super sub or not. Woody is stubborn, so he’s going to continue to start his #2 pick. In the meantime, who do you replace a future superstar in the starting lineup with? Uh-huh. Rhetorical question….
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
6:36 pm
GameTime-Marvin Williams 08-09 mix
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC5aLzd2HkE&feature=channel
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
6:41 pm
GameTime-Flip Murray 08-09 Mix
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2P3HaRWf0U&feature=channel
You’re gonna love this one….
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
6:44 pm
The background music is ironic because Flip says that on the court a lot. “By yourself Joe!!!!” “By Yourself Mike!!!!!” “By Yourself Marv!!!”
Next GameTime-Josh Smith 08-09 Mix
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY3y7d8-fdU&feature=channel
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
6:48 pm
GameTime-Mike Bibby 08-09 Mix
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUHvwwSZKj4&feature=channel
Ramon
June 15th, 2009
6:50 pm
I will say this. Marvin is a better player than Rip Hamilton was at this stage of his career.
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
6:52 pm
GameTime-Al Horford 08-09 Mix
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqIyBuLAymY&feature=channel
It’s been a while since ANYONE has made a Horford mix……not since right after he was drafted/part of his rookie campaign…..
Wabe
June 15th, 2009
6:54 pm
Interesting to see Ellington’s name in the mix now.
Honestly, I like Ellington. He’s capable of doing multiple things. It’s been mentioned that he has a jumpshot, but how his jumpshot translates to the pro game is still a question mark. I mean just look at JJ Reddick, he was lights out shooting the ball in college – but isn’t anywhere near as effective in the NBA. IF HIS JUMP SHOT IS AS GOOD AS ADVERTISED – HE COULD END UP BEING A STEAL at 19. He attacks the basket and takes contact. I personally wouldn’t complain if the Hawks took this route.
I know everybody including myself is SCREAMING POINT GAURD at Sund in a point gaurd heavy draft, but I wouldn’t mind drafting Ellington and going out and getting someone like Andre Miller. I know we’re looking for the ‘point gaurd of the future’ – but we’re also in desperate need of some talented ‘roll players’. Look at the Magic, Courtney Lee and Mikael Pietrus. Ellington could be that guy for us.
19th pick – Ellington (i know he’s not projected this high) or Lawson.
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
6:57 pm
Last but certainly not least, the big head honcho Mr.$$70mill himself:
GameTime-Joe “Cool” Johnson 08-09 Mix
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMnY4xJTzJk&feature=channel
S.B.D ALL DAYYYYY!!!!!!!!
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
6:58 pm
Sautee,
My credibility? Everyone else has moved on from this except you and Ray. One time I demanded MannyT to come up with a source for a statement I found dubious and one time I explained the way I personally evaluate sources. Manny moved on. You can’t, that’s your problem. Don’t kid yourself into thinking that anyone cares at this point except you, so my “credibility” isn’t at issue for anyone but you. And until you start addressing my points instead of caricatures of them, I just don’t care how you view of my credibility.
niremetal
June 15th, 2009
7:05 pm
Ray,
I grant that the various media folks aren’t inside the brains of the front office folks, but you know that their projections (ie the mock drafts) nearly always end up tracking the end result (i.e. the actual drafts) pretty closely. I certainly admit that one mock draft viewed in isolation means very little, and I admit I was being hyperbolic when I said that NO would have taken CP3 or Deron over Marvin. But when you see the same projections over and over and over again for a particular player, odds are that the front office staffs are thinking along the same lines. After all, with the exception of super-private workouts (which usually are only done for foreign players under contract overseas), they are seeing the same thing the front office folks are.
In any case, we’ve talked about Marvin many a time. We have roughly the same view on where he is now and how he has been mishandled in the past. The big question is what happens with him now…
Ariose
June 15th, 2009
7:05 pm
I say we go get thre NCAA champions and put them on the roster (Danny Green, Wayne Ellington, and Tyler Handbrough) I mean, If you look at our squad now, have the NCAA title winners not lived up to expectations either here or somewhere else earlier in ther careers?
Mike Bibby, Al Horford, and Marvin Williams? Just Sayin’….