Superman’s return!

Hey Sekou,

Any news on what the Hawks plan to do come draft time? I heard they would be working out Patrick Mills in the coming days. He seems like a legitimate option at 19.

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Checkout Chad Ford assessment of Dejuan Blair. Putting him in the same sentence as DeMar DeRozan and DeMar is consider to have Vince Carter type athleticism…..

“ct indy: Pacers, any shot of getting Blair. I think he is a great fit on an otherwise soft team

Chad Ford: Maybe. The Bucks and Nets would have to pass on him. If they did, I think the Pacers would grab him. Blair showed to be a pretty decent athlete at the combine. He had a 33 inch vertical and a lane agility score that beat Austin Daye and DerMar DeRozan. “

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Cuz,

Gotta agree that if Lawson is available, we have to snag him. I gotta admitt that I don’t watch a lot of college basketball but the few games I saw this year, I think he was one of college basketball’s best college player.

I like CP3 but he looks like he may turn out to be a darker version of Steve Nash.

Yea, we need to keep ZaZa.

My take on the Finals.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/190843-the-2009-nba-finals-are-not-all-about-kobe-and-dwight-howard

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theoretically, it’s a deep pg draft, but the hawks are in a dangerous position have having low-post player on the board (mullens from ohio state or mr. tar heel) that might cause them to, once again, go big over small. someone here brought up sund’s draft history of big men in his last three drafts in seattle. which brings me to the scary option mullens as the selection. tall big man with potential, but according a few articles, there is a lot of concern about his make-up.

while some of the early names at pg have moved up the board, the guy who i like, should be there at 19 (and maybe later if a trade down option became available): patty mills. mills was hurt for a big chunk of last year (wrist) but he played well at the end of the season and has international experience. small and quick, he seems like a perfect change of pace pg. but that’s what we thought about acie law iv as well …

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Now Sekou, You KNOW Rasheed had Dwights number. He owned that man everytime they play. ‘Sheed may be Lazy at times, but theres nothing that fires him up like some other big man on the block claiming to be the next big bully.

Prediction: I Sheed+Horford+Zaza+Smoove+Solo=Too much sauce for Howard to handle. How many times has Smoove sent superman’s shots right back where they came from? Smoove refuses to be up-staged by his childhood buddy also. They have a vey intense “friendly” rivalry going on, and smoove by no means has played second fiddle when going up head to head with Howard….

Somebody PLEEASE throw Acue the keys so I can see how well he drives!!!! 6′3 195lbs Naismith winner? Hello????

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Great blog as always Sekou.

2 Questions for you:

1) What do you think of Orlando’s backup center (Gortat)?

I think he played well in limited minutes (defensively), and he only made $800K last year. I know his offense is limited, but if we can get a guy like Villanueva to play backup minutes at the 3 and 4 (Mo Evans takes care of backing up JJ), I think we can have Gortat for cheaper than what Zaza would cost, and Villanueva’s offense would compensate for Gortat’s soso offense, and Gortat’s defense would coompensate for Villanueva’s defensive deficiencies.

2) If the Hawks draft a PG at 19, does that automatically mean Acie is on the trading block? (I can’t imagine the Hawks trying to resign Bibby and Flip, while having Acie, and then drafting another PG, and still have Speedy on the roster).

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And given the choice between the two, I actually take Zaza. And I think the Magic would too. Gortat is more athletic, but Zaza is tougher, better at crashing the glass, and has more offensive touch.

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Acie has not gotten consistent minutes from Woody, and he’s also been hurt a lot. I would hate for him to be traded to another team where he becomes a solid PG off the bench. But if we keep him for a 3rd season, he needs consistent PT from Woody.

If we bring David Andersen over, he would be our backup PF (and we need one). I also like Antonio McDyess (if he will sign with us).

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Hawks not smart enough enough to pull off a savy move!! They’ll probably trade their pick for a backup center

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For the Hawks, you have to be realistic.

They spent 68 million last year on the pay roll and have 40 million invested now.

They can re-sign Bibby, Flip, ZaZa and keep Marvin (which they better do).

Then, if we can trade Speedy’s contract (and maybe Acie Law- which I’m not sure about)— we can sign a Chris Wilcox/Charlie V and get a PG like Ramon Sessions or Jarrett Jack.

We’d then have the same starting 5 of this year which got us a 4 seed, then our next 5 would be:

ZaZa, Wilcox, Mo, Flip, Sessions— much better 5!

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Sekou,

If Woody wouldn’t play Acie, why would he play Ty? Not being snide. I’m serious…why would it be different this time around?

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Trade the pick im tired of hearing the same excuse talking about where still young why do we continue to settle for less when it come to the sports in this city you cant win a championship unless you have batman and robin and the last i look we have nuna.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

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If arthur blank was the owner of the hawks we would have kobe lebron cp3 brandon roy dwade dhoward yo ming the hole team would be nothing but stars and avery johnson would be the coach but sense we have ASG we have to nick pick on every thing because of money thats why the hawks will never win a nba title.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

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Glad to hear Speedy is out of here. Hope he enjoys good health elsewhere, and that we get something useful out of moving him.

I have to chuckle about the idea of going forward with Law. I’m okay with him going or staying. If he goes, we will have to get ourselves another pg.

I wonder what the thinking is on Law as far as Woody vs. Sund? Are they both “on the same page?” I can only imagine what they both think as far as the draft goes.

Tyler Hansbrough is a hard-nosed, heady player. He will be a decent-to-good pickup for just about any team that gets him (and properly utilizes him).

I like the idea of picking up a pg, but we all know the usual concerns about that. We might want to start looking at a replacement for Joe’s spot. We don’t know for certain what will happen with Joe. He could test the free agent market, and any number of teams would love to have him, especially if they already have one or two OTHER solid scoring options.

If BJ Mullens is available at #19, I can see Sund falling all over himself to take him. For those of you who think Woody would’ve ruined certain other very talented draft picks in the past, Mullens is your perfect fall-guy situation, if you ask me. Mullens is as raw as a freshly scabbed knee….

Flynn and Lawson will not fall this far, I think. Both guys are “undersized”, but I think teams know what they need these days: a court general. Not only that, but there are other “undersized” guards who seem to be doing just fine. Aaron Brooks, anybody?

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Ed Clark I think is the kids name.

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Darrell Starks,

If Blank owned the Hawks, this whole franchise would be different. Well, assuming he owned the Hawks and NOT the Falcons. But it would be different. Think Donnie Walsh instead of Rick Sund. Think…well, think somebody other than Woody. I’m just sayin’….But uh…let’s not smoke that stuff. We’ll only cry when we wake up from passing out and realize it was all quite literally just a pipe dream.

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I agree with let it go regarding Marvin/CP3, Sekou. Why don’t you forward the memo to some of your colleagues (namely Bradley) or was this a carefully veiled shot at him anyways?

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Now this is a Woody type of PG IMO

19) Atlanta Hawks: Jeff Teague, PG, 6-2, 180, Wake Forest, Sophomore, 18.8 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.5 apg, 1.9 spg, 48.5% FG, 44.1% 3FG

Inside Hoops has the Hawks making this pick

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Sekou

So you’re saying the reason Mike Woodson didn’t play Acie Law alot was because he didn’t want to draft him? Also how would guys like Eric Maynor & Jeff Teague fit on this team if we draft one of them?

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Great column Sekou… I’ve been telling all my basketball friends that Pachulia is the second most important free agent behind Flip. There is no backup center at that quality and price. Imagine having Ben Wallace and that contract!

There’s not alot of talk about this, but why aren’t the Hawks targeting Raymond Felton? I think he fits perfectly for Woodson’s offense as a point that hits open 3’s and isn’t the half court conduit. It doesn’t look like Carolina will match offers with Augustin on the team.

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Full of nuggets Sekou. Good job!

Over the past few weeks you’ve mentioned quite ardently that Speedy is outta here. Don’t think I recall you ever speaking as definitively about a player move you suspect (for good reasons I must guess) is sure to occur. Here you’ve mentioned a draft night move involving Speedy. Is this the Sekou crystal ball, or do you have ‘higher’ information that gives you sufficient comfort to make such a pronouncement?

About the Marvin thing you appear convinced is dead horse beating, could it be that many are less concerned about that particular fiasco, and more concerned that it was a symptom of an underlying failed talent evaluation system that may still be largely in tact with our Hawks? If in fact the system and associated thought processes continue to florish in ASG land, why should we not continue to be concerned? After all, it is (was?) a talent evaluation system that produced many more failures than simply missing on CP3 and Deron Williams, isn’t it? If it’s still in place, couldn’t it just as easily continue to produce failures? If it’s changed, tell us how; then maybe we’ll leave the issue(s) alone.

You said “I know everyone is always interested in upgrading. But sometimes it’s not nearly as easy you might think…” Interesting how you structure this. So are we to pursue upgrading only if it’s easy? Why should we expect the all out pursuit of the Larry O’Brien trophy to be easy? If it’s determined that we NEED an upgrade to Zaza to advance to the next level, then whether it’s easy or not is irrelevant, isn’t it? Get it done or go away and allow someone else to get it done.

Just sayin’…

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Hawks/thugs got they butts kicked…LMAO!!

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LBJ is a crybaby chump…..forget about that oversized munchkin

6′8 Gerald Green is unrestricted. He hasn’t done anything in his career…….He will come for the minimum. I think it’s worth a look anyway. A one year contract…..he’s better than what’s been at the end of our bench lately…

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Does anyone else find it fishy that Austin Daye tested at last week’s NBA Draft Combine in Chicago as the slowest, least athletic player in the entire Draft class?

It wasn’t a shock that the Gonzaga sophomore forward was the only player who couldn’t even lift the 185-pound bench press once. After all, he’s 6-foot-10 and only 192 pounds. But, when has Daye ever been described as extremely slow and unathletic? He did it all for Gonzaga over the past two seasons. He scored inside and outside, handled the ball, scored and dished in transition, threw down exciting dunks, blocked shots, and really gave Gonzaga a long, versatile player in its lineup.

Daye has loads of potential to be a terrific player in the NBA. He has Rashard Lewis, Tayshaun Prince, Lamar Odom, Thaddeus Young and Josh Howard (insert any other long, versatile small forward here) written all over him.

NBA executives have been raving lately about how impressive Daye has been in workouts. He’s been praised for his ability to do so many things exceptionally well. He’s been steadily rising up draft boards over the past few weeks. And he’s certainly impressive in interviews.

If everyone has been so excited about Daye, how is it possible that he tested as the slowest, most unathletic player out of EVERY SINGLE PLAYER at the Draft Combine?

To be fair, Hasheem Thabeet didn’t participate in the testing, and Ricky Rubio and Brandon Jennings weren’t in Chicago. But that doesn’t change much. Hopefully, for Daye’s sake, Thabeet is slower than Daye, but he would still then be the second slowest, the weakest, and the most unathletic player at the Combine.

Daye’s no-step vertical was 25 inches. The only player with a lower no-step vertical was Maryland guard Greivis Vasquez, who had a 24.5. Taj Gibson and Omri Casspi were next with 25.5.

Daye’s max vertical tested at 28 inches, which was tied with Vasquez as the absolute lowest at the Combine. No other player tested at less than 30 inches (Taj Gibson measured at 30).

As stated above, the bench press issue was no surprise. Daye is easily the skinniest player in this Draft class and he showed by not being able to lift the 185-pound bar once. Vasquez lifted the bar just one time, while Casspi did two reps.

When it came to the lane agility test, which tested players’ speed moving quickly in various directions around the lane, Jordan Hill (12.23 seconds) was the only player who finished slower than Daye (12.11 seconds).

The 3/4 court sprint is just a straight sprint down the court. Daye’s 3.5 seconds was good enough for dead last. Vasquez finished .02 seconds faster. Even BJ Mullens and DeJuan Blair (3.45 seconds) were faster than Daye.

Greivis Vasquez is a whole different issue. Most wouldn’t guess he’s the strongest, most athletic guy on the court at any time, but it’s going to be tough to play point guard in the NBA without being able to beat centers up and down the court.

But this is about Daye, the guy who has been so impressive lately in his workouts.

Is Daye really slower and less athletic than the likes of Blair, Mullens, Luke Harangody and Jeff Adrien? Is he really the slowest, weakest, least athletic player in the entire 2009 NBA Draft class?

Or was Austin Daye dogging it?

Was he told by an NBA team to perform as poorly as he could in order to make other teams not want to draft him because that certain team doesn’t want him to be drafted before that team’s pick?

Would Daye really do that?

Think about it. How many solid first round, maybe even lottery, prospects have ever been the worst or second worst in every single test? It’s one thing if he was only the weakest or only the slowest or only the least athletic, but all three?

We’re not talking about an out of shape big man here. We’re talking about Austin Daye.

Can a wing player who is the slowest, weakest, most unathletic player in the entire Draft class be a lottery pick? Apparently, it might be possible.

The question really isn’t whether or not a player like that could be a lottery pick. It’s whether or not the player in question is really what he made himself out to be last week in Chicago.

OTHER COMBINE TESTING SURPRISES AND NOTES

Stephen Curry did very well at the Combine, much better than most would have expected. He measured at a legit 6-foot-3 in shoes and 181 pounds, which is heavier than Patty Mills, Darren Collison, Jeff Teague and Eric Maynor, and only two pounds lighter than Toney Douglas.

Curry’s biggest knock has been that he is weak. Well, the former Davidson guard bench pressed 185 pounds 10 times, the same as Jonny Flynn, BJ Mullens and Tyler Smith, and more than Terrence Williams, Gerald Henderson, Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holiday and Earl Clark.

People also have said that Curry is unathletic. Well, he registered a 35.5 inch max vertical, more than Henderson, Evans, Holiday, Clark and Sam Young.

Curry did everything perfect at the Combine. He tested well, shot well and interviewed well. He could easily find himself in the top five when the Draft rolls around.

Who had the highest max vertical? It wasn’t DeMar DeRozan, Gerald Henderson, Jermaine Taylor, Blake Griffin, Derrick Brown or Tyler Smith. To the surprise of many, the only player at the Combine with a true 40 inch vertical was Jonny Flynn.

There was a lot of debate in Chicago about which point guard was the fastest of the bunch. The names thrown around were Darren Collison, Ty Lawson, Patty Mills, or maybe even Jonny Flynn. But, none of them were even the second fastest. Toney Douglas blazed through the 3/4 court sprint with an impressive 3.03 seconds, while even more surprising was the fact that Damion James was second with a 3.09. Matching Lawson and Mills’s time of 3.1 was the out-of-nowhere Jodie Meeks.

Everyone knows Blake Griffin and DeJuan Blair are beasts, but how about Luke Harangody and Derrick Brown? Harangody topped Griffin by one (23-22) for the most bench presses. That shows how hard Harangody has been working lately to get in incredible shape. Brown was third with 20 reps. The Xavier forward is not only strong and athletic, but fast, finishing with a 3.13 in the 3/4 court sprint.

Watch out for Rodrigue Beaubois, the young French point guard who is looking to make a name for himself in the NBA. He measured just an inch short of Flynn with a 39 inch vertical. The 6-foot-2 guard has a 6′ 9.75″ wingspan and had the third quickest lane agility time with a 10.49.

Former high school teammates and college rivals Wayne Ellington and Gerald Henderson both participated at the Draft Combine. Ellington has always been known as the shooter, while Henderson is the athletic one. But how about the fact that Ellington measured a 38 inch vertical, while Henderson had just a 35.5? What’s that all about? Who knew that Ellington was one of the most athletic players in this Draft class? Shooters can be deceiving. Ellington’s vertical is much like Jodie Meeks’ speed, as Meeks came in as the third fastest player at the Combine.

Link:

http://www.thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=273

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Chuckw/deadjournalist,

Yeah, I saw that on nbadraft.net. I’m still trying to decide whether I”m ok with that or not.

Here’s my take on Hansbrough: he’ll be one heck of a better pick at that slot than Sheldon was at #5 (or even at the same slot). I think Hansbrough has the confidence, toughness, and IQ that we wanted in 2006. He’s limited in some ways, but everybody is. The guy measures out to about a half inch shorter than Horford, and weighs 234. That’s big enough to play PF, and he’s pretty strong as well. Maybe not Dejuan Blair strong (overall), but he’s no slouch. I’ll say this: he had as many reps on the bench press as Blair did. Yep…

He’s got a decent post game, and will be able to score in the NBA despite his average (or worse, depending on who you talk to) athleticism. He won’t get to the line in the NBA nearly as much as he did in college, but when he DOES get there, he’ll hit the free throws.

On defense, he probably won’t block a lot of shots or get any other fancy defensive stats. But he’ll probably do what Horford does, and what is the very building block of defense: keep his opponent from getting good position. That, and he will hustle like a demon on the boards. On BOTH ends.

I’m betting his toughness, IQ, and sound fundamentals will make him a great role player, and solid part of somebody’s rotation. Think…maybe….a larger Matt Harpring, without the jumpshot (not that the shot can’t be improved). He’s a team-first type of guy, as he showed throughout the tournament, backing off his normal scoring in certain games, for the better of the team. Also, he plays under control. Very coachable.

If we draft him, we need to use him. I think he’s a guy that will prove that he should be a part of the regular rotation. I can see Sund going for a guy like this. As for Woody, I have no idea what that guy thinks. Really.

Meanwhile, Draftexpress has us taking Earl Clark of Louisville.

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Newkid,

That was one hell of a post at 9:40 a.m. Bravo!

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Does flip play two positions? If he does he is good to have. But as for the draft hansbrough looks pretty good to me. Good to see speedy being let go, he needs to just retire. I love him but he just doesnt have his legs anymore.

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Enter your comments here

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F.I.L.A.,

I’m sure Marvin appreciates your sentiments. But until Marvin graduates from the 4th scoring option on the team, he’s not going to be anything other than another SF. While you’re writing a letter to the front office about Marvin’s impending elevation to stardom, include a note about getting him the ball more…

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Sekou, Salim played 20 minutes a game in his rookie season. That sounds like a lot to me, especially for a 2nd round draft pick. The next season, he received 17 minutes per game. He disappeared from Woody’s radar in his thrid season. Could there have been another issue at work other than Salim not being “Woddy;s choice”? Or did BK “influence” Woody to play Salim in those first two years?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2786

Interesting dynamic, to have a lame-duck coach play an instrumental role in choosing players who may not be ready to make a significant contribution in his last contractual year. If, for example, the choice comes down to a jump-shooting PG (like Woody seemingly prefers) and a penetrating PG, will Sund opt for the guy Woody prefers? There are plenty of examples of quality PGs drafted around 19 (or later) who needed time to learn how to shoot before they reached their potential. Would Sund pass up a potential Tony Parker and choose a Dan Dickau to appease his short-term coach?

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Sekou, great blog! Also glad to hear that everyone in the organization has not given up on Acie. I thought he was playing well while starting his first year until he go injured in the Charlotte game. I also had hope when he got a LOT of playing time in the pre-season this past year. For some reason, that did not translate to the regular season. I think all he is lacking now in confidence as he seems to play ‘looking at the bench’, hoping that a mistake does not result in being subbed for. That is not the way to play the game.

It was also good hear a definitive statement regarding Speedy’s status. The Hawks have assets that can be leveraged to improve our team. Speedy’s contract along with a player and/or draft pick could bring back a contributor to the team.

I’ll also admit I had higher hopes for Morris. He looked like a lumbering big body whenever he entered the game. Have we seen the best of him or is there room for improvement?

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Sekou, both you and Mr. Bradley are pointing out two sides of the same problem: which direction will the Hawks go in after raising the bar with this season’s performance( up to but excluding Cleveland).

Your take: now that Dwight Howard’s play overshadowed The Chosen One, every team will be focusing on a strong post presence is spot on. And that that makes ZaZa more valuable to the Hawks/ other teams is precisely why it is so frustrating at the lack of development of ANY of the Hawks bigs; some of whom have both heft and height.

I hope that whatever page Sund and Woodson claim that they are mutually sharing includes some clear mandates to develop the talent that they have before engaging in the type of self serving actions that neither of them have historically proven to be adept at.

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Sekou, I’m a big Charlie V fan as well. I also like his versatility, because he can play backup minutes at the 3 and the 4.

Would the Hawks be able to sign him outright? (Bucks do not want to spend too much money, plus they want to keep Sessions as well).

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Astro Joe,

To be fair, Woody did give Stoudamire good minutes. I figure Billy probably did put the pressure on him to do so. But it also seems that Stoudamire would be right up Woody’s alley. You know, as you said-a pg who jacks it from the outside.

Only problem was, Salim never was a pg, and he was close to useless on the defensive end. Not trying to bash the guy, but he just didn’t fit here. I mean, Bibby’s not a very good defender either, but he has other skills/intangibles that Salim just didn’t have. I saw Salim as an Eddie House type. A shooting guard in a pg’s body. Stoudamire may yet find a role like House. But that may never have worked here.

One other reason I think Stoudamire got so much playing time was the same reason Law got decent playing time at first: there were no credible/consistently effective veteran pgs here at the time (Bibby, Flip). Once Bibby arrived, it was all over but the injuries for Law. Woody never said one word about Law playing or anything of the sort, until Bibby got sick. Then and only then did he talk about how nice it would have been to have Law available. It is what it is.

I have to wonder just how much Woody’s perspective is being considered in the upcoming moves. We may or may not be able to judge where this is going by the moves Sund makes.

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Sekou,

You’re Johnny-come-late to the Charlie V express. Check your old blogs, I convey during the season that the Hawks need to persue him this offseason. He could be our supersub playing mins at the 3,4 and 5 spots. Welcome aboard Sekou…..

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Sekou- I like the Charlie V. call, but how about Brandon Bass?
doc- I like the comparison of Hansborough to Harpring. I think it is accurate.

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Tyler Hansbrough might turn out to be a better player in the NBA than many project him to be. If he’s anything like David Lee, he’s gonna be a steal.

Does that mean he’s the right pick for us, or the best fit for us? No, it does not. But that’s something Sund and his crew will have to figure out.

I’m wondering whether or not Sund will try to move up in the draft.

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If the Hawks successfully resign Bibby and Flip, it won’t matter if we draft a PG or not because he won’t get more mins, consideration, consistent or better treatment from Woodson than ALaw or SStaudamire received from him. Retaining Woodson guarantees we’ll continue having PG problems. He feels obligated to Bibby for leading the Hawks to the playoffs after the trade, AND SAVING HIS JOB.

With Bibby you get no DEF, penetration and limited easy baskets for your BIG’s. With Flip, you have the teams best one on one player who has the ability to penetrate against almost anyone. However, he needs the ball to be effective and he doesn’t use that penetrating ability to get easy baskets for his teammates. Considering how many mins(24.7) he averaaged, his 2.0 APG is really low for a SG/PG that controls the ball and penetrates as much as he does. Our C-Horford, SG-JJ and PG-Bibby averaged more APG than Flip, and even ALaw averaged 1.6 APG and he avg only 10.2 very inconsistent mins.

If we don’t resign Bibby, and draft a PG, Sund has to make certain Woodson doesn’t use the same old school bullying tactics against him that he used against Salim and Acie. That’s why I suggested we go after the Bulls PG Heinrick because he’s a younger, bigger, quicker, faster version of Bibby, except he plays much, much, much better DEF. He can help the team consistently play uptempo, and he shoots well enough to make us effective playing halfcourt.

Since Sund and/or the SAASG have decided to stay in bed with Woodson for at least one more yr, they need to do everything possible to help him be successful. That means we should go all out to resign Zaza, Chills and Flip. Then they should go all out trade for Heinrich and sign AMcDyess to a FA contract. That would leave us with the following lineup.

PG-KHeinrick
SG-JJohnson
SF-MWilliams
PF-JSmith
C–AHorford

BENCH
C—–ZPachulia
C/PF–AMcDyess
SF/SG-JChildress
SG/PG-RMurray
PG—-ALaw
PF—-OHunter, Charlie V or Draft pick(s)

If the Hawks expect to duplicate their recent success, they’ll have to walk a thin line between Woodson tactics and OFF/DEF schemes and the players that are added to the roster.

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Ken,

You might want to check Hinrich’s contract- the word bohemuth comes to mind (and not in that Rashard “overpaying me adds the missing piece to the puzzle” Lewis good way). Plus his game is not all that similar to Bibby honestly, though he is a solid- if unspectacular- offensive player, and exponentially better defensively (who isn’t).

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If we resign ZaZa and Solo I think were fine. Solo has much upside potential. I wish we would play Solo with Al to see how Al does at PF. I would also like to see the experiment of Josh at the three.

Randolph Morris has not had a chance to show what he has. Our need for big’s might be overblown. Maybe they just need playing time.

I don’t see how we can get a better front court for the money.

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The Hawks will draft a forward with the 19th pick or an 7-foot international player from Portugal!!

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Ken Strick, you the man!!! If we are able to assemble your proposed team, trust me we’ll contend for the Eastern Conference finals next year. I love that team and I’m sold on Charlie V off the bench.

We have to resign Marvin, Zaza and Flip as a priority. McDyess would be an excellent pickup and with this squad we’d add a lot of depth and would be able to relieve JJ of some of his minutes and therefore have him much fresher for the playoffs.

Big Ray, I’d have no issues if we pick Hansbrough if he is the best player on the board when we pick. He is not a flashy player but I know we would get excellent value. He’s the type of player who’d bring the proverbial lunch pail to work every day and would help us significantly on the boards. What he lacks in athletic ability he would make up with technical ability. He knows how to position himself to be able to pull down those rebounds and with a healthy Horford would make a formidable rebounding force.

I hope Speedy can maintain his “health” so we can ship his contract and something else to move up or acquire a good FA. Although Speedy had a very bad time here, no one gets injured dileberately. He just had a bad time here. I wish him all the best and hope he can repay Atlanta by passing whatever medical he may have to undergo to be packaged.

Sekou, I hope you’ll be able to keep us updated with off-season activity of our squad once the dust settles.

Go Hawks!!!

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Oops, I forgot to “source” Hinrich’s salary.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/bulls.jsp

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I get that it is hard to find a good player exactly with the 19th pick, but there are good players EVERY year that are found outside of the lottery. Note this perspective when Bradley went with his I Need a Hero blog.
http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2009/06/01/why-the-atlanta-hawks-are-still-wishing-upon-a-star/comment-page-2/#comment-15334

I don’t expect to get a star at 19, but we can get a decent contributor. There are lots of PGs in this draft. Someone with a good name will be available. Truth be told, we need the dreaded best player available with that pick. Why, because if that player can give us 20 good minutes off the bench, he fills the major need of improving the bench. As long as Sund says that Horford is a center, the only starting gaps we have are replacing Bibby IF he leaves and replacing Marvin if we decide that we don’t want to match his offer.

If you want a contributor right now, look for a trade or a free agent. If you want a star, either get far enough under the cap to be the recipient of a magic beans trade (e.g. Gasol to Lakers, Camby to Clippers) or get some Astro Joe’s Organic Growth Juice and dunk our front court starters in it all summer with the hope that it is well absorbed by November.

BWAF

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All those people who are mad at LeBron for walking out on the media after game 6 obviously have not seen this guy’s antics over the last 5 years.

I recall in one of the first games in 06-07, we beat the Cavs on the road behind Joe and Tyronn Lue’s clutchness, and with 10 seconds left in overtime, he walked out on his team (this is on youtube). When the Cavs lost their 1st home game this year, I believe he walked out on everyone. Immature player who only can make layups and uncontested shots.

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Sekou,

I think you said the Hawks are probably going to draft a point guard? If so that means Acie Law is done here, what is it mutual or did Acie’s side force the issue?

And yes that hypothetical bench you were talking about Chill, Flip, Charlie V, Mo, and Zaza, yeah that’s deadly.

So are we giving up our rights to Anderson?

And I was just thinking about how Mike Woodson probably did not want Salim. I just think he has a natural aversion to point guards running his team. When it should be their team.

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Samuel,

I’ll have to say that I’m baffled that you’d choose Sheed over Charlie V.

08-09 Sheed $13.7M 12.0 points 7.4 rebounds and he will be 35 in September

08-09 Charlie V $3.4M ($4.6 next year) 16.2 points 6.7 rebounds and he will be 25 in August.

And hasn’t Sheed declared he needed $8M to sign?

To ME, it’s a no-brainer. Your cuz is right on the money.

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Samuel, Villanueva’s defense is very inconsistent, so I wouldnt play him at the 5. Like Sekou said, he can play the 3 or 4 effectively though.

Here’s an idea (somebody else mentioned it on an earlier blog). Milwaukee will probably let either Sessions or Villanueva go (both are restricted), so the Hawks should be able to get one of them. Villanueva or Sessions would each cost the midlevel exception, but I would be okay with Sessions as our starter for the next 5 years (let Bibby go). Sessions needs to work on his 3 point shooting, but he defends and penetrates, and would get JJ and our bigs some easy looks. I would sign Sessions and resign Flip, with Acie as the 3rd guard.

If Milwaukee matches Villanueva, then we offer Sessions.

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Ariose,

I like Ellington too. Not sure if he’d be the best pick at 19, but he reminds me a LOT of Allan Houston. Smoooooth and can drive well enough that you can’t just play his jumper. On a less deep and talented team he would easily have averaged over 20.

But if we drafted him, it might make signing Flip moot. Of course, some contender might have noticed Flip’s season and make him an offer that would make OUR signing him moot, anyway.

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Sautee, Yup…

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Lets say we bring back every body except bibby can we win with this team and the 19pick?
STARTER ACIE, JOE, MARVIN, JOSH, HORFORD,
BENCH FLIP, MOE, CHILL, CHARLIE V, ZAZA
RESERVE SOLO, TY LAW.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

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WTF is up with Sund’s comments? The guy has no idea what he is talking about

1) He said you don’t trade for [superstars]–you draft them. Um, the Heat traded for SHAQ and won a title a year later. You are a moron

2) He has no goals for this team. Making the playoffs with a winning record? Then he has the nerve to say he wouldn’t have minded if we made the playoffs with a losing record

3) His biggest accomplishment was being the GM of the Mavs. Can anyone here name 1 player on those Mavs team he was the GM of?

4) Can we please get a real GM who will take this team to a Finals, not this idiot who doesn’t want to win and will just resign and retain all our “young, athletic” players?

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Al horford woukld LOVE for Villanueva to come and play here lol. They both are from the Dominican Republic and play on their national team.

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Draft Express PG rankings:

http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/Draft-Eligible-PGs/

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Tribe,

I have no idea what you are talking about.
I hear all the Sheed bashing. Some of yall were saying the same thing about Shaq a few months ago. I just takes the right situation. Sheed is ready to get out of Detroit but I believe he has more ball in him.

Charlie V guarding the 3. I’ll have to see that.

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Samuel, I am big fan of Sheed, because he can post up, he can hit the 3, and he is a better defensive presence than Zaza. Plus I like his attitude and fiestiness (as long he keeps it in check). However, he is 34, and he will cost more than Zaza ($8-$9 mil compared to the midlevel for Zaza). Plus Sheed still wants to be a starter, and I dont blame him. But I dont think he would start for the Hawks (unless you move Horford to the bench).

If Zaza can be resigned for $5 mil or so, and then we get Villanueva to backup the 4 (and 3 sometimes), that would be good. As far as guarding the 3, Marvin is our starting 3, so Charlie would come off the bench, which makes it a little easier for him playing against other bench players, and he would guard mostly 4’s. I hope we bring Chills back and he would guard the 3’s, with Mo Evans as our backup SG.

I agree with Sekou. If we can have a bench of Zaza, Charlie V, Chills, Mo Evans and Flip, thats a pretty good second team. Even if we have 4 out of those 5, I think that’s still a pretty good bench.

I hope Sund gets it right…

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Sekou

If you are campaigning for Charlie V in your article, than you are probably during the Hawks Organization more harm than good. Why; because if he is looking good to us (which is apparently the case) than he is probably looking even better to other competing teams. Since Sund hasn’t shown any aggressiveness in his actions (so far), then that means Charlie V may become the first round of FA falling to another team early in July. His qualifying offer of 4.6M will be a no-brainer for another team looking to add depth to its roster. The only way we get him is acting fast. Until Sund shows me those traits, I’m not going to get a “Hard-On” dreaming about this acquisition concept. I will also say that about other “great” pick-up ideas I’ve been reading from these bloggers.

Regarding draft picks, that’s easy. Create a list of 19 draftees’ that management and the coaching staff feels very passionate about. Rank them in order of preference. During the draft, as these players are selected by other teams before us, scratch them off. When it is the Hawks time to pick, we just select what’s left from the list with the highest preference. With the 19th pick, it is not rocket science. This is not a best available strategy; it is a default strategy from a controlling list.

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NBADRAFT.net has the following comparison for Earl Clark from Louisville – NBA Comparison: Marvin Williams/Boris Diaw.
Does that make him the logical choice if available at #19??

Regardless, if he’s there I say pick him. He remind me of Billy Owens. SF/PF that has the skills to play on the perimeter and body to bang in the post…

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Marvin Williams-is-not-Chris-Paul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Suckers.

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Charlie V at center? He’s a combo forward who plays horrible post defense. No thanks. If we get him, he should be slotted as the backup PF/SF. There’s a reason that he (and Dirk and KG) never see minutes at center.

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I see more people are coming around to Earl Clark. If he is there at 19 we should take him. Ariose I actually wanted to bring Gerald Green in last year but we always seem to pass over guys like that. I remember the year he came out that BK tried to get another pick to take him but wasn’t able too. I would like either Gerald Green or Jamario Moon. Both are athletic and can guard more than one position because of their length and jumping ability. I like Green a little more because he is a better shooter and younger. Plus I think he realizes it takes more than athleticism to get by. I would love to get the guard from the Hurricanes in the second round. His name slips my mind at this time but he won the college 3 point shooting contest. He has a great shooting stroke.

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First you can forget any thoughts about Jrue H. being available with the 19th pick. He has now become a solid lottery pick.
Second, I am so glad to hear you are off the Luke Ridnour bandwagon Sekou after so many years.
Lastly, I don’t like the Hansbrough pick at all especailly considering the dynamics of the Hawks situation.

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The blogs keep adding front court players. Woody dosen’t develope the ones he has. Morris and Sole are exellent examples who might be fine given the chance.
Bibbby is proven but slow and no defense. We need a veteren PG with better defensive skills. JJ is going to demand the ball and control the offense anyways. If the new veteren PG can get the ball to Marvin, Chills, Al and Josh where thay can score – problem solved. If JJ lets him.

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Here’s an analysis from the NBA Draft Combine. Notice Wayne Ellington’s vertical

You’ve got to respect Blake Griffin, James Harden, and Jordan Hill for participating while fellow lottery picks Ricky Rubio, Hasheem Thabeet, and Brandon Jennings did not. It’s disappointing that we don’t get a chance to see how this year’s best all stack up against each other, but we can analyze what we have.

People make a big deal about the fact that Griffin measured at 6’10” in shoes, but the things that will make Blake a nightmare at the next level are his speed and agility. His 10.95 in the lane agility test and 3.28 in the ¾ court sprint were right there with the likes of Jonny Flynn, a player considered to be one of the most athletic point guards in college basketball this past year. He also recorded 22 reps on the bench press, good for 2nd best at the combine. Not like it matters; Griffin could have put up Austin Daye – numbers and would still go #1.

No projected lottery player was more surprising at the combine than James Harden. Many scouting reports on Harden say that he’s not athletic, but his results say otherwise. First, he recorded a 37” vertical and reached the same maximum height (11’8.5”) as Blake Griffin. Second, he ran a 3.13 sprint, which was only one hundredth behind speedster Ty Lawson, and repped 17 on the bench press. It’s been reported that the Thunder are considering him at #3. With no more reservations about his athleticism, is this enough for Harden to leapfrog Rubio?

Hill was up and down at the combine. On one hand, his standing reach (9’0”), body fat (6%), and maximum height (11’11”) were impressive. His 3.3 sprint was actually faster than several wing players as well. On the other, he recorded the worst agility score at the combine and only repped 11 on the bench. With the way the game has evolved, most NBA PFs are stronger and more agile than Hill, so he has some work to do physically.

Point Guards

Don’t be fooled by that baby face; just because Stephen Curry looks like a 12-year-old, it doesn’t mean he has the body of one. Surprisingly, he reached ten reps in the bench (honestly, who thought he’d get past 3?) and had the same vertical as Mr. Griffin. While his speed and agility weren’t on par with other PGs, his IQ will help to make up for it at the next level.

Jeff Teague only has 4.5% body fat and repped 13 on the bench, both impressive numbers for the underclassmen. He also recorded a 36.5” vertical leap.

Two surprises with Ty Lawson: his vertical (36.5”) and the fact that five guys posted faster times in the sprint. Just the opposite, there were no surprises with Eric Maynor or Jonny Flynn. Flynn’s 40-inch vertical was best at the combine.

Toney Douglas was the fastest player at the combine (3.03 on the sprint) while Jack McClinton was most agile.

Wings

Considering what a physical specimen Gerald Henderson looks like, his 8 reps on the bench and 11.17 agility time can only be deemed disappointing. His 4.4% body fat (best in the combine) is impressive, though.

Demar Derozan is an elite jumper, not an elite athlete. His max vertical of 38.5” was good for 3rd best at the combine, but his bench press (5 reps), agility (11.88 – terrible for a wing), and sprint (3.31) left much to be desired.

Earl Clark’s measurements (6’10.25,” standing reach 9’1.25”) were excellent, but five reps on the bench press are weak.

One of the most impressive players at the combine was Xavier’s Derrick Brown. Brown was considered a potential lottery pick earlier this year, but his stock plummeted. While his 3.13 in the sprint, 20 reps on the bench, and maximum height of 11’11” won’t catapult him back into the lottery, those numbers are impressive enough to make some teams think.

Wayne Ellington was always known for his fluid game, but his measurements should eliminate any concerns about his size and athleticism. He is over 6’5” in shoes, has a vertical leap of 38 inches, and pumped 185 lbs 13 times.

Austin Daye and Greivis Vasquez had the worst performances of the combine by far. Neither player exhibited the speed, strength, or jumping ability necessary to make an impact at the next level.

Bigs

Dejuan Blair had only 12% body fat, which was the same as Wake’s James Johnson. Looking at them, you’d never guess they’d have equal body fat. Blair’s 18 bench reps and decent agility numbers coupled with his incredible wingspan make him an intriguing prospect.

A big man that helped himself a lot is Luke Harangody. He turned out to be the strongest player at the combine (23 reps) while posting solid numbers in the sprint and agility tests

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One thing I don’t like about Charlie V is he’s injury prone. I think Wilcox would fit better.

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Sekou,

I agree with you on Terrence Williams. I think he’s a slighty smaller verison Iggy from 76ers. We could defintely use another explosive person from the wing. I wouldn’t see on Earl Clark either. He may be a cheaper version of Charlie V…

Verbral Kent,
If he slips out of the top ten, I hope we could swing a deal to move up to snatch him…

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No offense to anybody that likes Earl Clark, but I’m just not seeing it. Sure, the guy has plenty of potential. We hear that word so much. But he looks like a cross between Marvin and Solo. He’s caught between the 3 and 4, while lacking the discipline or consistency to commit to either spot. He could turn into a Rashard Lewis type of player, but whatever team he goes to would need to bring him along behind somebody.

That, and he’s weak. We already have Solo. We already have Marvin (a bit shorter, but the same wingspan), who is a proven commodity. I don’t see how Clark helps, now or in the future. But that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.

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Blair measured at 6′5.25 without shoes and just 6′6.5 with. He has long arms, but his vertical was very underwhelming. Don’t look now, but Shelden had a better vertical than him (both no-step and max) and a better reach.

Mullens look like an athletic freak for someone his size. Of course, athleticism isn’t the knock on Mullens, so that doesn’t allay the big fears about him. Toney Douglas also put up great numbers…but again, his athleticism was never the concern.

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niremetal, you say Shelden I say Maxiell. But alas, likely a moot point since dude seems to be going in the top 15 (if not a lottery pick).

Saying that a good player can be chosen at #19 is like saying a good player can be chosen at #30. It’s not about can it happen, it’s about the odds of actually making it happen. There will always be examples of guys that slipped through the cracks in every sport. But I wouldn’t bet against the field when the most recent history says Hickson, Douby and Crittenton falls to teams picking #19. Finding a guy who can give us 12-15 minutes/game in his rookie season would be HUGE.

And for the upteenth time, please, if Woody gave every 1st round pick steady playing time over his tenure as head coach (with one exception), can you reasonably conclude that Woody doesn’t like to play 1st round picks? And even in that one exception, Acie’s playing time dried up at the exact time that Bibby arrived AND his boss was trying to fire him. And at the time, Acie was shooting less than 40% from the field. Come on people, a little context please?

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LOL @ Astro Joe.

He would benefit from a team that has time to bring him along. Kind of like Spencer Hawes.

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DOES ANYONE HAVE ESPN INSIDER? IF SO, WHO DOES CHAD FORD HAVE US GETTING AT 19?

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Sekou cuttin loose (a lil). Good read, candor.
http://thestartingfive.net/2009/06/02/interview-with-atlanta-hawks-beat-writer-sekou-smith-of-the-atlanta-journal-constitution/

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How many championships did Bobby Sura cost us?

Sura+Lue went nuts at the end of a meaningless season that netted us Childress instead of Howard.

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Jerry,

Correction, it was Bobby Sura and Jason Terry that played well at the end of season you are referring to. I thought they were going to bring both players back the following season but BK had other plans. Besides, it was the commissioner fault that we didn’t get the hometown hook that season like Cleveland did in the previous draft…

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I really don’t see much of Marvin or Solo in Earl Clark. He can create his own shot, something Marvin still needs to work on.. He is a pretty good ball handler and passer. His coach thinks he can end up being another Lamar Odom. If he is there at 19 I just think he is way too talented to pass up. He was projected as a top 10 pick not too long ago. Plus he could come in for either Josh or Marvin instead of having Mo come in trying to play sf . Plus he is a decent shot blocker for the position he plays. Well the more I think about it the more he sounds like a BK type of player so if he is there we will probably pass.

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Astro Joe,

I pretty much agree with everything you said in your 1:09 and 1:46 posts. The possibility exists that we get somebody at #19 who contributes significanlty, right away. But as you say, it’s not likely unless something went wrong. I also agree on the idea of moving up in the draft if we want to get a pg. I’m guessing we do if Sund is not too high on Acie and/or Woody isn’t high on him and Sund agrees to look elsewhere for a young protege to play behind Bibby.

CP,

Earl Clark has some abilities. He’s built like Solo was when he came in the league (6′10″ 225 or so). True, he can create his own shot, but he doesn’t do so consistently. He’s got a lot of upside/potential both offensively and defensively. His issues are consistency and discipline. As you say, definitely a guy who would fit Billy’s mold. Like I said, maybe he turns into a Rashard Lewis type (or something more potent). I don’t know. He’s definitely talented, I’m just thinking about fit.

That’s all well and good if you want to wait possibly another 3-4 years for a guy that might be better than Marvin. I think we need a pg more, but I’m not the one making the decisions. Who knows what Sund will do. I’d like to see him move up in the draft either way.

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Melvin,

Woody said it best: “You don’t want to go in the other direction…”

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Melvin, if we lose those FAs (specifically Bibby, Marvin, Flip, Zaza & Childress), Sund better not plan on replacing any of those guys with #19. He better use the salary cap relief on some proven vets. Again, if #19 is getting 15+ minutes a game next season, we’re a “bubble” team (at best).

If we’re drafting a PG, I WANT MAYNOR. And he won’t be sitting there at #19.

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Astro,

But we won’t know if we are losing any of our FA’s until after the draft. So we better make the most out of the draft as possible. Like you, I wouldn’t mind seeing us move up (especially if we have a player on our target) or acquire more draft picks. I think Detroit/New Orleans/Phoenix and some other teams are trying to dump their picks.

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SAUTEE-you’re assessment of ALaw and his situation compared to Bibby’s was simply priceless and dead on point. It’s amazing how many excuses have come out of the Hawk camp about Acie being injury prone or not being ready. Yet, not one positive word has come out concerning his excellent speed, quickness, penetrating ability, DEF or confidence.

At the beginning of his rookie season, he consistently got extended mins and went up against some of the NBA’s top PG’s and more than held his own, especially on DEF. Not only was that not made an issue by our coaching staff, it wasn’t used as an example of what he can accomplish if he’s mentored, encouraged and consistently given extended mins. As soon as TLue returned, Acie became an after thought and buried at the end of the bench, then the excuses started. The same thing happened at the start of this season when his outstanding training camp went unrewarded and all but ignored by our coaching staff.

However, Bibby’s numerous shortcomings, like his lack of quickness, speed, penetratiing ability and DEF, along with his injuries, goes unmentioned and/or unaddressed by our coaching staff because of his 3pt shooting and experience. If Bibby isn’t resigned, and we draft a PG, I can’t see Woodson allowing the rookie or Acie a realistic chance to effectively run the team because it would lessen his chances of forcing Sund to sign another vet PG, which was basically how the trade for Bibby came about.

I don’t disagree with Sekou’s choice of LRidnour as a PG choice, but KHinrick basically gives you everytning LRidnour does and he’s a better shooter, with range. With Woodson’s emphasis on jumpshooting and having a jumpshooting PG, Heinrick would be a better fit for his limited jumpshooting dependent OFF. I like Wilcox, but both Charlie V and AMcDyess gives you more OFF versatility, since both are very good outside shooters that can post up effectively. Someone mentioned Charlie V’s lack of DEF. Well, he has height, size, can rebound, postup, shoot with range and play multiple positions. That type of versatility makes his lack of DEF much less of an issue than MBibby’s limitations and lack of DEF, especially since he’d be coming off the bench.

AGAIN;
PG-KHeinrick
SS-JJohnson
SF-MWilliams
PF-JSmith
C-AHorford

BENCH
PG—-ALaw
SF/SG-JChildress
SG/PG-RMurray
C/PF–Charlie V & AMcDyess
C—–ZPachulia and/or SJones
SG/SF-MEvans

This roster would give us better size, height, depth, versatility, inside/outside scoring & DEF, as well as OFF/DEF rebounding. And more importantly, the new additions wouldn’t go against the old school mentality of HC MWoodson.

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Melvin,

Just ‘cuz Woody says it don’t make it not true. Heh heh heh. How’s that for a double negative? Woody says a lot of obvious things. I think that was just the best one.

Astro Joe,

On the subject of speed, those are some stats I followed, too. A couple things stand out as variables, though. One, it’s like running a 40 yard dash in the NFL combine. A guy disappoints at the combine, then comes back during a Pro Day or other workout event and shaves 3 tenths of a second off his .40 time. So maybe he was having a bad day at the combine.

Another point to consider is how fast a guy PLAYS. When you’re running a drill, do you have the ball in your hands? Are you dodging defenders and looking to score or make a play while you’re hauling booty up the floor?

Some guys will have the edge on a drill. Other guys will PLAY faster. And with that speed must come a level of control. That’s what I think sets guys like Lawson and Flynn apart from some other guys. Lawson is so very good at not turning the ball over. Flynn a little less so, but still at the top of the heap (didn’t check all the stats).

I like Eric Maynor, too, by the way. Kid can play. And, he’s not a bad size at all.

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Astro Joe,

Now are we talking about adding Hinrich along with Bibby, or in case he’s not retained? Just curious.

Ken Strickland,

Very well stated. I think however, that we are simply at a crossroads with Acie Law. Why he did or didn’t play, why he did or didn’t produce, when he did or didn’t produce is all moot. He’s still an unknown quantity, and Sekou lends credence to that idea by suggesting there is a split in perspective on him in Hawksville. Of course, he could just be talking about US, contentious scurvy knaves that we be (okay, doubt that any of us have the scurvy, but you get my drift).

But something tells me he’s talking about those who have real input and/or are part of the decision-making segment.

Law has just completed his second year. He’s an unknown enough quantity that teams will still see potential in him. He’s not a newbie in the league, but he’s not exactly a sophomore either. Tradeable, but possibly also useable in a Hawks uniform.

One way to proceed is to keep him around another year, draft another pg, and see who comes out on top between the two (or see who the GM and coach like the most). Here again, we run into the same potential problem, and a question that we are not likely to get a full answer to:

Are Sund and Woody on the same page? Is Woody around for the long haul? If he’s NOT (and only Sund and the ASG would know this, if a decision has been made or they’re leaning in a particular direction), then we KNOW they’re not going to agree on much, as it won’t matter anyway. If he IS around for the long haul, then agreement is paramount (and not grudging agreement).

Woody said they had some good meetings. I really don’t know what that means, as it could be about any number of things. I’m trying not to make too much of it.

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What team is the best?
1ST TEAM STARTER ACIE, JOE, MARVIN, JOSH, HORFORD.
BENCH FLIP, MO, CHILL, CHARLIE V, ZAZA
RESERVE 19PICK TY LAW, SOLO.

2ND TEAM STARTER ACIE, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, BOSH.
BENCH FLIP, MO, HAKIM WARRICK, CHARLIE V, ZAZA
RESERVE WEST, SOLO.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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We can’t get Hinrich without trading Josh. There’s just no other way to make the numbers work.

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nire, I don’t understand. Why couldn’t we (in theory) trade Speedy (around $5M) and Chill (S&T around $5M) for Hinrich?

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Astro Joe,

BYC rules. Makes signing and trading either Chill or Marvin to a team that’s over the cap a near-impossibility unless the player we get back has a salary of $15M or more.

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You know, We COULD draft TWO point guards. One in the first round and one in the second. If woody can’t get it right after THAT then he defenetly won’t have his contract extended.

2nd round PG’s around the 49th pick: Tyrese Rice(BC), A.J Price(UConn), Lester Hudson(Tennesse-Martin), Eric Devendorf(Syracuse), Rodregae Barbaios SP?(Real Madrid).

It could work. Have you noticed that all of these years the two things that the Houston Rockets are neve short on is Big Men and Point Guards? I mean seriously that’s ALL THEY DRAFT/aquire. Yao, Deke, Juwon Howard at one point,and the rest of those big men over there. The at guard they had Brooks, Alston, and Luther Head. They like to pay for their SG/SF though T-Mac, Artest, Battier.

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LOL at Niremetal. No matter what it’s ALWAYS about trading Josh!

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“Raise your hand if you thought that Hinrich was as fast coming out of college as Patty Mills?”

Heinrich was a little lighter back then AJ lol. Also those sprints really don’t mean a whole lot. Like sekou said, it’s more important to look at a guys game than his combine results. We ALL KNOW that Mills/Lawson is WAY faster than Hinrich with a basketball in their hands as far as shifting gears and changing pace is concerned. Patty Mills has a lethal first step(CP3 and Kobe can vouch for this) and Lawson is a load to deal with in a full court trasition situation…

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J-Smoove 08-09 Highlights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eFE9j2amzo

Nire, stop picking on Smoove…

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nire, no, I meant Hinrich as a replacement for Bibby… as in Hinrich becomes our starting PG and Bibby takes Team Dime elsewhere.

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Nire,

Say it with me ” I(you) do not like Josh Smith”… Ahhh, you feel better now… Hope so, because Josh will be in a Hawks uniform next season.

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Nire,

I post the wrong link above, try the one below.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=o4tjn9

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Astro,

What’s your take on Courtney Lee? Rookie, 22nd draft pick, starting on a 62 win NBA finalist team….

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Mel,

That doesn’t take into account the post-July 1 salaries of the players. Hinrich and Speedy are both taking pay cuts next season (and Speedy’s will be slightly bigger than Hinrich’s), which will make the salaries harder to match because of the 125% rule.

And take a look. I said that we SHOULD NOT trade Smoove for Hinrich.

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OMG!

The Lakers are in trouble. Nelson has some seriously fresh legs and his timing is dead on.

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Nire,

Comeon, Speedy and Hinrich are both taking a 500K cut next season. We can always throw in Randmo (800K) if needed. Get it done Sund…

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O’BRIEN why would you trade for hinrich plus he make 10million a year?

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I agree with Nire, on the Hinrich for Mo/Speedy. I dont see that deal working. The only benefit I could see is they get 2 expiring contracts for next season. I think Hinrich is expendable especially if they sign Ben Gordon, but they will shop around and see if their is a better deal otu there. Maybe Chicago would consider it, but thats more like a deal thats did in October/November.

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Nire,

It’s simple. It will reduce their (Bulls) payroll by 15 mil after the next season.

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Doc,

I just knew BK was going to pick Rudy Gay. I think he felt the backlash from picking the all 6-8 guys from the previous 3 drafts. Man, the one time he should have stood his ground, he gave into the Lanegiver (Shelden)….Even if BK would have pass on Roy for Gay, that would have been a good consolations prize.

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Why would Van Gundy play Jameer the entire 2nd qtr his first game back after a 50 game layoff??????

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Melvin, I think that if Pietrus didn’t have a ton of injuries, that Courtney Lee would have been competing with JJ Reddick for minutes at the SG position. Much like Chalmers in Miami, Lee’s getting time because of poor alternative choices (Reddick hasn’t roken a sweat in his NBA career).

nire, I agree. We don’t seem to have the right assets to acquire Hinrich. I have always pegged him for Portland… they could probably put togather a better offer. If Chicago had not made that trade during the season, they may have been interested in David Andersen as an offensive big. But that was then and this is now.

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Looks like the size and quickness of the Lakers will make it tough for Superman. I think Orlando will shoot better next game, though.

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It’ll be interesting to see what happens in Game 2. Lakers have suffered from the Hawks-syndrome… they haven’t handled success well. I’m not sure that they have put together many good back-to-back games during these last few rounds… certainly not 3 in a row.

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Enter your comments here

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Mel,

Not sure why you thought I was saying they would demand Acie and a draft pick alone. I meant that they would demand Acie and a first rounder (and maybe another pick) IN ADDITION TO Speedy and Mo. In any case, we seem to be in agreement that the Bulls are unlikely to go for it unless they test the waters and find nothing better out there. And while Hinrich is making starters’ money, there are a dozen or so contending/semi-contending/on-the-playoff cusp teams who either 1) currently have or 2) soon will have a need at PG; or 3) might be looking for insurance for an untested/old/often-injured current PG. I have little doubt that Chicago will shop Hinrich quite a bit before they part with him; from their perspective, there’s no huge rush, and eventually someone is sure to bite and overpay. The league is littered with overpaid and/or mediocre PGs (Beno Udrih, Luke Ridnour, Daniel Gibson, Jamaal Tinsley…Speedy…), which shows how consistently teams are willing to overpay to acquire a PG who they think might turn into the next Steve Nash (i.e. a PG who went from “not bad” to “pretty good” to “incredible,” with the last stage only occurring 8 years into his career).

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It’s extremely frustrating when I see a guy like Courtney Lee contributing in the NBA Finals, and Acie and Solo cant even get min in the regular season. Fire Woody! And hell no to Hansborough! Thats all we need is another undersized pf. Hello!!!

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Trade horford marvin and the 19pick for CHRIS BOSH.
STARTER ACIE, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, BOSH
BENCH FLIP, MO, HAKIM WARRICK, CHARLIE V, ZAZA
RESERVE SOLO, WEST.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

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Nire,

One more kick and this horse is dead.

Let’s look at that deal from this perspective. Considering Chicago is not going to win the trophy as constructed (with no low-post scoring). Let’s say nothing of interest was offer in return for Hinrich. What would be their next best logical move? I would say they would want to position themselves to be serious players in the 2010 free agent pool. Keep in mind that Brad Miller (12.25 mil), Tim Thomas (6.4 mil) and Jerome James (6.6 mil a player opt that we know he’s going to use) all come off the book next season (25 mil total). Now if they resign Gordon this offseason you have to add that amount to their payroll (let’s say 10 mil forsake of argument) which would decrease the amount of cap space after the above 3 players contracts expires.

Now how valuable would it be for them to pay their backup point guard 9.5 million? When that money could be use toward signing one of the elite big men free agents such as Amare, Bosh, Yao or Boozer (if he dont opt out this season). Wouldn’t that be a better investment of their money?

Besides, the Bulls made the playoffs this season and Hinrich dang near miss the entire first half. So I don’t see why he’s not expendable…

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Our players are working out ha? Thingz that wont change next season

Josh will still be the same shooter firing bricks from deep
Horford will still be raw on the blocks (post moves)
Mo evans will still be 6′4 and get abused by true SF’s
JJ will still be Mr.ISO/Dribble King
Solo will pump iron all summer and get man handled in the post repeatedly
Speedy will continue to wear his Armani suits
Law will still look lost and confused
Woody will say “We just werent prepared tonight”

DAM IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Hey AJC, the Atlanta Dream are in action tomorrow night. Why can’t I ever get any news about them?

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It seems like Cleveland is sucking up some air in the eastern conference regarding trade rumors:

Villanueva to Cavs?

This is being reported on SI.com

[http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/105350-villanueva-to-cavs]

Just to repeat my previous comment, if Charlie V is looking good to us then he is looking even better to other teams, as this is an example. I’m not going to belabor the point about our pace for acquiring talent. I hope it all works out but I’m still skeptical.

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Is it me or does Toronto seem like a revolving door for NBA players. Seems that no superstar player wants to play there. They may need to relocate to Seattle.

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guys i hear all of the predictions and possibilities that you all have suggested, but i haven’t heard of anything that would make us appreciably better or even able to compete with the big 3-clev, orlando, and boston plus miami will be on the rise, chicago, and indy are goin’ to be alot better.

IMUS- are you still high on us gettin’ Javale Mcghee from washington?

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do you all really think that 18 other teams will pass on ty lawson and will leave him available for the hawks.

also, what is the diff between ty lawson and law IV? why would woody play lawson and he didn’t play law IV as a rookie?

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celts are shoppin’ ray allen and rondo for a package deal. would they take marvin, law, and speedy?

that’s the diff between our gm’s and other teams. they ain’t afraid to pull the trigga to get a deal done.

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ant banks,

Really? Where was our gm when amare stoudemire was coming to atlanta? What about when we could have had barbosa or calderon for chill in a sign and trade?

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Lets pull the deal ANT BANKS horford marvin 19pick for bosh lets do it now rick sund raptors will take that deal in a heart beat knowing that bosh will be gone in 2010.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!

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Trading 3 more years of Horford at less than $6M per season for potentially one year of Bosh is straight STUPID. Whew, had to get that off my chest.

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I have a rumor thats going around that i heard from satelite sport show in philly JOE JOHNSON FOR THADDEUS YOUNG AND SAMMY DALEMBERT if RICK SUND make this trade fire his a$$ now.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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This rumor is true if rick sund make this trade this will be the worst trade in the history of this franchise fire his a$$ now.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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darrell starks I read about that Joe to Philly rumor yesterday. That would leave us with no sg and I don’t see one in the draft helping us that much at all. I like Thadeus but we already have Marvin. Dalembert has an ugly contract. The only way this would work is to sign and trade Marvin for a sg but I just don’t see Sund making this move.

The scouting report I have read also say they don’t like Lawsons low release. Say he might have trouble at the next level because of his height and low release. To be honest Law was regarded as a better pg than most of the guys that will be available when we pick at 19 so I don’t see how people think a pg at 19 will start or get major pt over a guy who was regarded as one of the better pg’s coming out of college. Woodson wants a vet pg not a rookie running the show.

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@ Melvin,

Toronto’s problem is that I hear that Canada has something like a 60% income tax, so even if they pay a market salary a player gets to keep less of it. Compare that to playing in Florida where there isn’t even a state income tax and it’s a big difference.

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G-Man -Flynn is my guy, i’ve been following him since highschool/ All American game. I like his athleticism and ability to run a team, good passer too- that man just plays with a swagg and I think who eva passes him up will be kicking themselves later.

Rondo and Ray on the blocks huh? I wonder if they would take Marvin,Speedy,Chillz rights,Future pick. Probably not but a line up of

Rondo/Ray/JJ/Smoove/Horford would be sumthing serious. Then we get Charlie V before Cleveland does to replace Marvins Production

LLAW/Flip/Charlie V/ZAZA/ Terrence Williams/Toney Douglas

I dont think I would do the JJ trade to Philli unless they gave us -Thad/Louis williams/ and their 1st…… Woah even that doesnt seem like equal compensation

If were talking trades -JJ for Rondo and Ray -then draft a Sg to replace jj and eventually Ray

I can see talent all over Austin Daye but im not sure becuz of his weight and strength- 6′11 -192 He couldnt bench 185 once- which is a red flag to me but as i recall Durant couldnt either and we all know his story……Jus sumthing to think about

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HERE WE GO AGAIN WITH THIS ASG STUFF PLEASE SELL THE TEAM.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

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Ant, I don’t think Lawson is that highly regarded by the talking heads, relative to the other PGs in the draft. So yes, I think there is a very good chance that he is available at #19. But keep in mind, there would likely be 6 PGs chosen ahead of him. Excuse me if I don’t get overly excited by having the 7-8 best player at his position. Pundits are claiming that the top PGs include Rubio, Jennings, Holiday, Flynn, Curry and Maynor. Supposedly, Teague and Lawson will battle for the next spot.

Law had a clutch jumper but I’m not sure that he had a more consistent jumper. It’s rare to see someone who can consistently knock down a 20-footer in college but can’t hit that identical shot while wearing an NBA logo. No doubt, dude was super-clutch and carried a no-name team into national prominence.

If Sund trades Joe for Young & Dalembert (which is likely wishful thinking coming out of Philly), then he needs to fire Woody and hire Keith Smart or someone who will constantly push the tempo. And he better draft someone like Budinger or Terrance Williams at #19, and he better get Philly’s #17 pick as well. That way, he could conceivably “re-build” around a roster that includes Dalembert, Horford, Smith, Young, Eric Maynor, Terrance Williams/Chase Budinger and whatever pieces he adds around those guys.

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personally, i would not mind doin’ a one yr rental on bosh. we made the 4th seed without him. i think that with him, and non of our main players missin’ time due to injury (smoove, horford, marvin) i think that would be 12 more wins a possibly a 3rd or 2nd seed.

his 15 mil would come off jus’ in time for the f/a class of 2010

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SWAT,
Good point…

Astro,
I’m sure Woody wants no part of Rondo especially while he got his hands full with JSmoove. Besides, wasn’t Josh and Rondo teammates at Oak Hill? I can see them putting the double team on Woody now… WAF

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newkid, sure, talking heads can’t judge the intangibles of a player. But since I don’t have the time nor resources to perform my own scouting, what other choice do I have? So I’m left with the standard resources most others use.

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this hype over the f/a class of 2010 reminds me of the hype of the new millenium. my grandmother still has cans of potted meat and bottled water that she bought waitin’ for doomsday to strike on at midnight of dec. 31, 1999. then the next day came and nothin’ happened!!

i don’t think that there will be any major moves durin’ the f/a of 2010, because the original team can offer the MOST money. watch what i am tellin’ you, the f/a period of 2010 will be jus like the day after dec. 31, 1999, NOTHIN’ HAPPENED!!

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Ant,
LMAO at your 3:29 post. I remember expected Doomsday (1/1/00)…

Obrien,
Why do you find it hard to believe that the ASG wouldn’t pay
Bosh/Joe the max? Didn’t they pay Bibby/Joe the max this past season along with the approval for Sund to spend over the cap to pay Chills…

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For my part I’m a results guy Joe. When a system that’s employed to effectively evaluate players and yield the best decisions and results consistently produces marginal to poor results, I stake out my ground by criticizing the system. Like you, I haven’t an independently developed player evaluation system, but the results produced by the ‘professionals’ in ASG-land don’t often escape the naked untrained eye. Sund shouldn’t listen too much to my player evaluations, but he ought to be held to account if he – using his highly priced system – continues to fail, fail, fail. Something or someone (or perhaps both) needs to go if the combination of owners, in-house basketball intelligentsia, GM decisions, coaching prowess, or players’ performances aren’t moving us expeditiously to competing for – and winning – the O’Brien trophy.

I enjoy watching and winning 47 games, but couldn’t care less about getting to 47, or 50, or 55 – and don’t get too enamored with the athleticism or other attributes of this or that athlete – if we’re not about doing everything possible (and not in 2015) to win the O’Brien trophy. Sund, Woody, and the ASG should fix those things necessary to arrange an impending romantic rendezvous with L. O’Brien, or get out of town.

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Calling all cap experts, could you tell me what is the max (salary and number of years) Bosh could be offered next year (both from his current team, and from another team). Much appreciated…

Melvin, they traded for Bibby. And they had to pay Joe that salary to help entice him to come here. I just dont see them willingly paying Joe $16-18 mil, and also paying Bosh $16-20 mil. Especially based on Sund’s bargaining (wait and see approach) style

However, it can be done, because Orlando has a payroll similar to the Hawks, and they are paying Rashard $20 mil per year, while Howard gets $17 mil per, and Jameer Nelson makes almost $8 million. Thats $45 mil in 3 players.

ant

I’m with you. If I’m the Hawks, I make that deal for Bosh (giving up Josh and something else), as long as the ASG is willing to offer Bosh a big contract next year. How long must the Hawks (and Woody) continue to wait on Josh Smith to be more consistent, develop a jump shot, play within his limits, and get to the next level?

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Ant you wild’n out right now….lol Can Meat and bottled water,lol
People are so superstitious…I wuz living in Guam when the new millenium broke and those people swore the earth was coming to an end -I used to ride thru the residential neighborhoods and all u would see is white crosses on every lawn……. My goodness

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Not that I wouldn’t take Sessions. He plays uptempo, and that’s not something we do. Still, you don’t pass on a guy like this who won’t cost much. Especially since we already know he can play, and plays well. Hope it’s not a fluke.

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PAUL PIERCE 18MILL RAY ALLEN 18MILL KEVIN GARNETT 24MILL thats 60mill for 3 players and the hawks salarie is only 68mill why cant we trade for bosh?
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!

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Big Ray, would you be okay with Jarret Jack as our starter, Flip off the bench, and then either Acie or our #19 pick as the 3rd PG?

I am okay with Jack as our starter. He will cost less than Bibby and less than Hinrich. He is much better defensively than Bibby, and much younger, and like you said, he can play some SG (when Flip is in at the point). The money saved on Jack can be put towards our bench (Charlie V, for example).

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If Sund were to pull the trigger on that trade involving Philly Id find him and off him myself…

you guys wouldnt have to worry about having him fired…

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Hmmm, save money or make a run for a title. Which will Sund Choose?

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I just tried the Josh Smith/Speedy for Bosh trade on the ESPN NBA Trade Machine and I had to add R. Morris to the trade to make it legal because Josh is a BYC player. I still say this is a great trade for both teams!

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STARTER ACIE, IGUODALA, MARVIN, JOSH, HORFORD
BENCH FLIP, MO, CHILL, ZAZA, DALEMBERT
RESERVE WEST, SOLO.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

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IF We traded joe for iguodala and dalembert no nba team will be able to keep up with us the hawks athleticism would be so awesome that every game would be sold out.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

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Two Slam Dunk champions on one Roster? Hmmmmmm…..

I.Mus, What up!!!!!

I Like Heinrich too but I’d be just as Happy with Patrick Mills at 19. When you’ve got Kobe and Chris Paul calling you one of the fastest players they’ve seen in a while you KNOW it’s serious. I mean did you see USA Vs. Austraila. What about St. Marys Vs. Davidson in the NIT semifinals? He gave Stephen Curry the business 26&12 to Currys 22&4 and they were guarding each other the entire game.

I’ll pass on Earl Clark though. I think that’s a wasted pick if we pick him. We can get Gerald Green for even cheaper and he’s twice as Athletic and the same size. None of those Louisville seniors stood out to me. The only guy who is nice to me on thet squad is Edar Sosa…..that kid has potential. Besides we still own the rights to ANOTHER SF(Chills). I think pick #19 will eventually be narrowed down to Mills,Ellington,Lawson, and Hansbrough by Sund in that order…..or whoever is left on the board at that point. But you never know with the draft…..crazy things happen, we may get super lucky for once, sund may pull a Danny Ainge and get us two all-stars(unlikely) lol. Clark is about the same size as Hansbrough isn’t he? 6′8-6′9. He would probably have to transition to SF, just like Hansbrough would probably have to. Thats why I say we just get Green, he’s played the position his entire life/jupps out of the gym.

Doc, I got the extended version just for you lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiCUNirJOFc

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Ariose, Marcus Thornton is also a name I am hearing about at the 19th pick. He is one of two players we have actually worked out with the other being terrance williams. I’m wondering if sund thinks joe is expendable (philly trade) because management considered thornton to be our shooting guard of the future. They said he scored just like joe (the good version) and his favorite player is joe. Interesting for sure.

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Grabbed off the internet

Scattered Rumors

•Q Score Up: Players who are being mentioned more and more in a positive light by NBA teams we speak to: B.J. Mullens, Tyler Hansbrough, Rodrigue Beaubois, Josh Heytvelt, Jack McClinton, Jeff Pendergraph, Omri Casspi

•Q Score Down: Players who are being mentioned more and more in a negative light by NBA teams we speak to: Earl Clark, Terrence Williams, Ty Lawson, Eric Maynor, Damion James, Tyler Smith, Wayne Ellington

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I’m gonna write this a few times during the summer, but it really annoys me that every summer all I read is that Solomon, Chillz, Marvin, Smoove, and Horford (last year) all look chiseled and bulked up, yet in the fall when we see them they all look wiry and rail-thin. 2 years ago we read about how Marv raved about how amazing Chillz looked and how much bigger he was…LOL. Every year I read that Solo has put on 15 pounds of muscle…Where? I read about Smoove looking like a bulk of chiseled mass last summer…LOL

Come on Sekou…you’re killing us

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OMG!!!! Tribe Called Quest- I swear you took the words right outta my mouth. Report after report about nothing……. I guess this summer were going to hear-
” Josh is really developing a 3pt shot”
“Solo is working out and his body is the mirror image of Dwight Howard”
” Acie Law is really starting to look like CP3″

I mean give us something useful like when can we expect Speedy Claxton to be a former Hawk or Y we wait til mid august to start looking at free agents…. Jeezuz

Sautee -Im so hot on that trade I wish we had the front office to make those type moves happen. That would be sweet -

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Nire why wouldnt you trade joe for iguodala and dalembert me i can see us making that deal not only that iguodala contract is only a avg 12mill a year for the next 4years dalembert would give us that big man that we needed so bad specialy him coming of the bench to match up with some of the big teams that we will be playing.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

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Ariose,
I wouldn’t mind us signing Green for the cheap. I definitely rather him sitting on the end of our bench than Gardner, Hunter and Morris. I will give Speedy a pass b/c I believe he was healthy enough this season to contribute if given the opportunity (but thats another story).

Nire,
I see this horse is still breathing…

I already agreed with you and Astro Joe that the Bulls would seek more than expiring contracts for Hinrich (what else is there to agree on?). My last post to you acknowledge that and was written from another perspective. Hence, when I said “what would be their next best logical move”. However, you only see things one way and thats from your perspective. Since you insist that the Bulls will hold on to Hinrich for a better player and it’s reported the Bulls are looking for a big man that can score in the low post, please provide me with the five teams (that you speak of) thats in need of a starting PG (w/a 9.5 mil contract) that has a low post big they could send the Bulls.

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Trust me Ariose I wouldn’t mind having the guy on our bench either. He has all the talent in the world he just hasn’t put it all together yet. I would rather have him than Mario. Green and Moon would be two guys I would look at and bring either one in depending on the size of the contract. Hopefully getting released by a few teams has forced Green to work on all aspects of his game rather than being able to use his athleticism to get by. He still has a chance to make it because like you said he is only what 22.

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Sautee,

No. I lived in DC up until 3 weeks ago, and saw lots of Wizards games this year. Caron Butler is older than Joe, less distinguished, and less talented. I certainly wouldn’t mind getting McGee, but I’m not remotely close to being impressed with him. He was a garbage time player this year, but that translated to a decent number of minutes for him simply because the Wizards were so bad and got blown out so often. He’s athletic, but he shows zero interest in playing defense and has poor fluidity to his offensive game. I honestly was more impressed with Solo than I am with him.

In any case, as I said – you don’t trade away a 27 year-old 3-time All-Star who is the franchise player on a 47-win team if the best you’re getting back is a 28-year old 2-time All-Star (who wasn’t selected in the most recent year) who can’t stay healthy for a full season and who is the second or third best player on a team that peaked at 43 wins. I know people around here sometimes like to say “JJ isn’t a franchise player” but Caron DEFINITELY is not a franchise player. He’s never been the go-to guy in Washington even when he is healthy. This year, he was the second-best player on a team that won 19 games. People say Butler is underrated, but I don’t think that’s true. He has skills, but he’s never had to be the focus of the offense because of Arenas (when healthy) and Jamison (who IS underrated).

And the #5 pick doesn’t change the logic. If you’re a playoff team that still has room to improve, you don’t improve by trading your best player unless you’re getting something even better in return. I think trading JJ for Caron would put us back in the lottery, because I don’t think Caron is remotely capable of being the first option on a playoff team. McGee definitely would not be an improvement over Horford at center, and no one we could draft at #5 would make up for the loss of production we’d suffer elsewhere.

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Nire,

I should have mention that my first post was in response to your post at 7:26 which you said “We can’t get Hinrich without trading Josh. There’s just no other way to make the numbers work”. During the time I was playing with the trading machine, you came back with your 2nd post at 7:36 (with other ways to acquiring Hinrich) prior to me responding to you 1st post (clear as mud, huh). I think the timeline may have cause some confusing. However, I noticed how you didn’t address/suggest which teams you think would provide the Bulls with the big man in return.

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Melvin,

They don’t need to offer a big man. They just need to offer something that is potentially of even minimal value to the Bulls – be it a lottery draft pick, a rotation player, or something else. Speedy and Mo probably would not be rotation players on the Bulls (the Bulls are already overstocked at the perimeter positions with Rose, Salmons, Deng, Tim Thomas, and probably Gordon). The Hawks also are not likely to be in the lottery next year, so there are about 15 teams that could “outbid” us simply by virtue of being a worse team. If you’re really curious, you can check out HoopsHype and find some teams that have rotation players with expiring contracts and/or decent big men. I gotta get back to work, and I’m not gonna be goaded back into this argument again.

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Nire,

I’ll disagree, based mostly on finances.

This past season:

Butler $9M 20.8 pts. 6.2 reb. 4.3 assists

Johnson $14.2M 21.4 pts. 4.4 reb. 5.8 assists

Looks to me like they are getting a LOT more bang for the buck with Caron. Not bad for someone who is “less distinguished, and less talented” than Joe Johnson.

And when Jamison was out, Caron DID carry the team, so imagine if he had more talent around him. He plays tougher defense than Joe and I’ve never seen him take possessions off. Can’t say the same for our captain.

In the current economic crisis the teams that get the most production for the money will pass the ones who invest too heavily for the return they get. The one caveat to that is teams who already have invested in an established superstar.
I KNOW that you (at least somewhat) agree with that premise, from your posts about avoiding the Dampiers of the world, and from your wanting to hoard Horford because of the production we get from him for a rookie contract.

I say that $14.2M ($14.9 next year) is too much to pay for the stats JJ is giving us. Particularly when lesser paid players are giving similar stats.

It’s amusing to me that you think losing JJ automatically puts us in lottery land. Do you REALLY think that little of the rest of the roster? Or was that hyperbole?

And how is JJ SOOOOOO indispensable when he disappeared in the playoffs? Three trips to the All Star game didn’t seem to help him then, did it?

For $14.2 M, I’d like a player to at LEAST play up to his season average in the playoffs. None of the Hawks did that, but Joe is our captain and supposedly our leader. And as you said he’s more distinguished and more talented than Caron.

Oh, and I would have McGhee off the bench and NOT starting in Horford’s place.

I’d let Bibby walk and get a Jack or a Sessions and use the #5 on a future point guard. Or keep Acie and trade the pick and get more veteran depth.

I doubt that the sky would fall if we traded JJ.

But I’m sure you’ll tell me how it would.

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Sautee and Ariose,

I wouldn’t mind seeing the Hawks adding Caron to play alongside Joe and without giving up Josh/Horford. Not sure if thats possible but Caron is truly a bargain at 9-10 mil a year and he may be Washington only trade asset b/c Jamison and Arenas contracts are outrageous.

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Sautee,

Ain’t got much time today, but I’ll it again: Caron Butler is the second or third best player on a team that peaked at 43 wins. JJ is the best player on a team that won 47 games. Caron is injury-prone, certainly DOES take plays off (I don’t know where the perception that he doesn’t comes from). Your statement about Caron carrying the team when Jamison is out nonsense – Jamison has missed 4 games over the past two seasons. The last time he did miss significant time, the Wiz went 4-8 without him and it was Arenas who was “carrying” them during that period (although Butler was also hurt for 3 of those games – surprise!).

Anyway, Sund isn’t dumb enough to make a trade like that, so I’m not worried.

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And as for the comments about JJ in the playoffs…uh, ok. I could see you making an argument that he’s expendable if he was healthy, fresh, and we won despite him playing badly (or if we won with him out hurt). But he was playing hurt, exhausted, and the team played like $hit. When JJ doesn’t play at his best, the Hawks have a lot of trouble winning. Don’t see how that makes him expendable. And I’d love to see you use similar logic to tell me why Butler is a better player. How is the second or third best player on a mediocre to bad team who is OLDER than JJ going to be an improvement?

And now, I’m done until after the French Open final. See y’all Monday. Go Federer!

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r u guys serious about trading jj for caron butler? that just plain dumb, butler goes on the dl every time he takes a piss and only scores 20 cuz the other team is worried about shutting down jamson or agent zero when hes healthy. there isnt a 20 point guy in the league who gets more open looks then butler. at least jj knows how to fight through a double team i wouldnt mind getting igguodala for jj but butler? hell no

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FREE AGENT RESEARCH!

I had some time this afternoon, so I did some research on available free agents after July 1 that I would be interested in. You may have other FA’s that interest you that I did not include. Here’s my list by position ranked for my preference:

PG-Devin Harris, Ramon Sessions, Flip Murray
SG-JR Smith, Ben Gordon, Gerald Green, Dahntay Jones, Morris Almond
SF-Ron Artest, Trevor Ariza
PF-Drew Gooden, Brandon Bass, Chris Wilcox
C-Zaza Pachulia, Marcin Gortat

These four restricted FA’s in the PF position interests me: David Lee, Carlos Boozer, Linas Kleiza, & Charlie Villanueva. Marvin Williams as a SF.

I know this group is not as strong as the ‘10 FA’s, but there are some really great players available if the Hawks are willing to deal! Anybody got any thoughts on this group and the possibility of the Hawks signing any of these players?

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I missed the post but: I “would” do the Butler,McGee for JJ trade. McGee looked really good to me this year and Butler is pretty much even with JJ. I really can’t see Washington being that stupid!

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I wouldnt make that trade joe for butler and mcgee first of all butler is 30 years old and you do not want to build around a player thats 30years or older unless he is a primetime super star.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!

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Did you guys hear that Jeff Teague strained his MCL? Do you guys think this is a sign that he needs to return to wake f.? How far do you think he will fall if he doesn’t drop out of the draft?

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Iguodala is a beast thats only 25years of age thats only going to get better and the sixers want joe in the worst way plus they are trying to trade dalembert and we need a big man bad so joe for iguodala and dalembert right now because we dont no what joe intention are after this season coming up.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

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Sautee how do you feel about this team
STARTER ACIE, IGUODALA, MARVIN, JOSH, HORFORD
BENCH FLIP, MO, CHILL, ZAZA, DALEMBERT
RESERVE SOLO, WEST.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!

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starks, until I see that we re-sign Flip and Zaza and convince Chills to come back, I can’t even judge it. Not enough info. This isn’t fantasy leagues. (and no accusation there)

And nor do I see Butler as a player who can take us to the next level. By any means. I’m just musing about the investments we have made and what kind of return we’re getting. We currently lack quality depth. If we could get similar production at ANY position for nearly a third less money, we’d have more to spend on quality veteran bench players. Nothing against JJ. I’m a fan, but he’s very expensive. Only slightly less than LeBron, DWade, Bosh, and Melo.

Only he’s NOT giving what they are.

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In My 4:44 pm post I give you this big diatribe about how It’s COACHING and not JJ and you guys STILL want to blame our BEST PLAYER? Come on. Can we be serious. We’de be lucky to win 25 games without JJ. If it weren’t for injuries to Marvin, Josh, and Horford we could’ve won 50+. Butler????? McGee??? Horford has his lunch money, and he’s keepin’ it. If we simply re-sign everybody Add Rasheed, Gerald Green, Our two draft Picks, and possibly Chills or someone else, we win close to 60+ games.

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Hey, I just fired up the trade machine and a Joe and speedy trade for iggy and dalembert worked. Do you think it would work if we threw in out draft pick?

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Which brings me to another point.

One line of thinking is that we get to the next level by acquiring another high level player of JJ’s caliber, or thereabouts. Let’s put aside what we think it takes to get such a guy. Just concentrate on acquiring such a player, a person who presents as consistent a threat as JJ.

What happens if we can’t go out and get that guy? Does the world end? Will we be cursed to remain a 4th seed at best, forevermore?

If you can’t get a Bosh, Amare, or whomever you fancy, and still have/want to extend JJ, what do you do? You start thinking really hard about dancing with the one you brought. We can add all the “glue guys” and perfect little bench pieces we want. The biggest changes will still need to take place in the starting five, period.

That 1st or 2nd offensive option (and hopefully a solid 3rd) must come from guys in your starting five, although an electric sixth man also fits that bill as the solid 3rd option.

In all honesty, I think this is the way it has to work. Whether it’s a blockbuster trade or a change in roles of the starters (something many of us have screamed about for years) is another story. We’ll find it which way this goes as the summer wears on.

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According to the Boston Globe, Donnie Walsh is seeking a sign-and-trade for David Lee.

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Terrell,

That is interesting news. Of course, it could be mis-information, but I kind of doubt it. Lee is a valuable player, but not someone that really fits D’Antoni’s system the way they’ve used him.

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1.Trade Josh Smith(10.8 mill), Mo Evans(2.5 mill), Acie Law (2 mill), and Craig Claxton’s contract(5.2 mill) for the Big Aristotle(20 mill).
2.Draft Patty Mills in the 1st, and Jeff Pendegraph in the 2nd.
3.Bring back Chills
Bibby/JJ/Marvin/Horford/Shaq
Patrick Mills/Flip/Chills/Pendegraph/Solo
SE Division Champions!!! It’s that simple. lol!

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Ray,

No doubt.

When we signed Joe, everybody (Joe included) thought that he would be “the man” in the ATL. What we (and mainly the BASG) failed to see was that Joe had the personality of a “born second in command” player. I don’t even think Joe realized at THAT point that he wouldn’t (or couldn’t) be the outright leader that this team needs.

C’est la vie, BUT we see from the extreme ups and downs of this year that we still have a leadership void that obviously Joe (and even Bibby) weren’t able to fill. A true leader would have kept his team from yo-yo-ing up and down to THAT extreme.

And I guess part of our frustration as fans is that AT TIMES……. Joe would be that player (Game 4 against the Celtics). At other times….er, not so much.

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Devin Harris is the featured guard in the system he plays in. That sstem is alos geared twoards his abilites by Lawrence Frank. Obviously, he didn’t have that kind of production in Dallas. You are not taking in to account Coaching and other situational factors (supporting cast, physical capabilities etc.)

Sautee, so if we do an even swap JJ for either Caron Butler, Al Harrington, Devon Harris, Jason Terry, Andre Iguodala.

Igoudala isn’t that great of a shooter and isn’t really a shooting guard. Philly tried that expirement earlier this year and it failed, Iggy wnet back to playing SF. I think we already have enough of those. I’m also pretty sure that Igoudala uderachieved cantractually based on the amount of money he is getting paid. Smoove’s numbers were down but we won 10 more games this season.

Two of the gus on that list Jasin Terry and Al Harrington, we’ve had here in Atlanta before(I’m sure no one wants to remeber those times) So how is that even a valid argement. HERES AN IDEA!!!! LETS TRADE JJ FOR HARINGTON STRAIGHT UP!!!!! YEAH EVEN THOUGH WE’VE ALAREADY SHIPPED HIM OUTTA TOWN FOR SUCKING AND NOT PLAYING ANY DEFENSE. WE OBVIOUSLY DIDN’T GET BETTER WHEN JJ ABSORBED HARRINGTONS TOUCHES RIGHT? OH YEAH I’M SURE OUR RECORD GOT WORSE RIGHT? YES I CAN SEE IT NOW, WE WOULD DEFENETLY WIN 47 GAMES THIS PAST SEASON WITH HARRINGTON INSTEAD OF JJ ON THE ROSTER. EVENTHOUGH WE DIDN’T EVEN COME CLOSE TO WINNING THAT MANY GAMES WITH HIM STARTING ALONGSIDE JJ. IT’S PRETTY EASY TO PLAY FOR DON NESON. NO DEFENSE INVOLVED AT ALL, SO I’M SURE NELLY DIDNT HAVE A VALID REASON FOR WANTING HIM GONE….

Terry is a chucker(like all Arizona Guards brought up under Lute Olsen), and Butler for JJ is such a joke i’m throwing up in my mouth right now from laughing so hard.

How about Billups for JJ, Ginobili, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Kobe, Amare, Rashard Lewis, Vince Carter, Kevin Martin, Monta Ellis + Beidrins, Ray allen + Rondo etc. etc.

AND YOU CAN’T SAY JJ IS NOT ON THAT LEVEL BECAUSE HALF OF THE TEAMS THAT OWN THESE PLAYERS WOULD NOT HESITATE TO PULL OF A DEAL LIKE THAT.

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Sautee, i’m not really yelling at you or anyone else, i’m just trying to prove a point. You say he’s a “second in command” type of Player. I agree with that. In fact, I’d say eveyone in our starting lineup are probalbly “second in command type of players”.

I don’t think that means we get rid of those players though. Nor does it mean we need a superstar. We just need a leader(Chauncey Billups). And it starts at the PG position. I think Patrick Mills is that gup, but thats just my opinion(I guess embarrising some of the most popular superstars in the NBA(in the olympic games) just doesn’t cut if for you guys).

I beleive we can be modled after that 04′ Pistons squad. Realistically we’re almost there. Resigning out Free agents and adding a few more pieces(Sheed/Harris/Heinrich/Gordon, Green, Mills/Ellington/Hansbrough) we will be right there IN SPITE of a lame duck coach.

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Well one area that Mr. Sund and Woodson seem to agree on is that the Pistons of the Chauncy,’Sheed, Ben Wallace years is the model that they are using to build this franchise. Sounds good but is today’s NBA championship attainable using that approach?

Don’t know but if the Lakers hold serve and win this year, I don’t think so. In fact, there will be a run on solid bigs who can run,shoot and defend the paint whoever wins because of the emphasis on post play in the serise so far.

So how will our designated geniuses deal with that state of affairs?

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G man,

Thanks.

And about your trade idea with SAC, 2 things. One, you assume Bibby will be back (which is NOT a certainty) but assuming he is, did he and Martin have any issues in SAC?

And secondly, in Woody’s offense Martin would have the ball in his hands a LOT and he’s much more turnover prone than JJ.

But I like that way of thinking, and I DO like Nocioni off the bench.

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Sautee,

I gotta laugh at anyone who puts up stats as the measure of what a player brings to the table. Come on.

How about Isaiah Rider? In his only season with us, he put up numbers that actually were slightly BETTER than what Steve Smith had put up the year before we traded him. Did that mean trading for Rider’s “production” made us better? Of course not. Rider was an awful defender, which the stats didn’t show. And he was a much more selfish player than Smitty, despite the fact that he averaged more assists per game in 99-00 than Smitty had in 98-99.

How about Shane Battier? He doesn’t put up gaudy defensive numbers. But he makes the whole team better defensively because whoever he guards pretty much never needs to be double teamed. JJ has a mirror image of that effect on defense – he ALWAYS needs to be double teamed, which makes the rest of the team more efficient offensively (albeit the overall efficiency is very limited by Woody’s system). To quote a great article on Battier:
For most of its history basketball has measured not so much what is important as what is easy to measure — points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots — and these measurements have warped perceptions of the game.

Of all the guys you mentioned as “bargains” in terms of production, how many of them get double or triple teamed every time they touch the ball? How many of them are even the first option on their team? Terry is option 3 or 4 on a better team. Butler is option 2 or 3 on a far worse team. Harris is option 2 on a far worse team. Iguodala is the only one who is the first option…but he’s on a worse team and is not asked to handle the ball nearly as much as JJ is nor is he ever tasked with guarding the opposing team’s best defender. Still, he is the ONLY one in that bunch who I’d consider trading JJ for. And even then, I probably wouldn’t do it unless I was pretty damned sure we were gonna lose JJ in free agency next summer.

Al Harrington? Please. Ariose covered that. I’ll just add that anyone who plays under D’Antoni and Nellie will put up gaudy stats.

Also, none but Harris is assigned lead guard duties even 10% of the time that he’s on the floor (I’d say JJ is assigned it 40% of the time). Not a single one of the guys you listed is asked to guard the opposing team’s best perimeter player.

To paraphrase Jerry Maguire, none of them are even asked to do anything that’s even remotely close to being in the same vicinity of what JJ is asked to do. And with the exception of Terry (who is asked to do the LEAST of all the people you mentioned), all of them are asked to less on worse teams.

JJ EARNS his 21ppg. His presence on the floor opens things up for everyone else. I admit that he’s not LeBron, Kobe, D-Wade, or even Melo. But I put him easily on the same footing as Bosh and well above guys like Kmart, Rashard Lewis, Iverson (the model that got his most recent extension, not the ‘00 model), Bibby, and most other people who make as much or more than JJ does.

The Magic are overpaying Rashard Lewis, but he’s playing for a ring now. The Celtics are overpaying Ray Allen, and they won a title. If you want to contend for titles, you don’t do it by subtracting guys like JJ just because they come with a hefty price tag. You do it by surrounding them with other guys who play at an All-Star level.

I hope you’re still just playing Devil’s Advocate. Because otherwise, you sound a lot like Clyde, who can’t see past the numbers when he evaluates players.

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Sautee,

“Man go back and read what I actually posted. At NO time have I proposed swapping Joe for ANY one player. Never.”

I know you didn’t, that was just my arguement. Although stats may be the same from a production standpoint, the end result(wins and losses) will not.

No, I cannot honestly say that Joe does more for his team than those superstars that you listed, but every player has his/her limitaions. Historically, Joe’s is 25ppg. In 2010 when the rest of the young supertars get a significant cash upgrade, I don’t think Joe desrves a FULL upgrade. I do beleive he sould stay within the 14-18 Million dollar range. I also don’t think he will have a problem with this if he is committed to the franchise and wants the organization to add more pieces in order for the Hawks to be successful in the future.

I also beleive that coaching has/is hindering our teams performance at the moment. I do not beleive that our players are being put in the best positions possible in order for them to be successful. That is not Marvin, Josh, or JJ’s fault by any means. Something has got to change. One thing that won’t is the leauges perception of Joe Johnson. The guy is a stud. First one on the court every day in practice and one of the last to leave. He is a true professional, and i’m sure his high character rubbes off on the young guys.

It wasn’t all about the money with Joe. Pheonix played the waiting game with Joe like Sund did with Childress. Joe was offended by this and felt like if the oganization really valued him, they would have offerd him a contract instead of waiting for someone else to name Joe’s value. So when Billy Knight came knocking, Joe felt appreciated and jumed ship. I am of course refrencing the sports south special “Spotlight Joe Johnson”.

I’m sure if Sund puts a reasonable offer on the table EARLY, Joe will not have a problem negotiating a REASONBLE price for his next contract.

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We need a better coach(or a change in his philosphy) and a stronger supporting cast for JJ. Thats it. Like nire said, JJ EARNS his money.

In the games that Joe missed this season, even though we won them, we had to come back from HUGE(20+ points) defecits in order to win, and those we against the bottomfeeders of the leauge.

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If the Hawks have to wait for a proven superstar to join their team before signing someone to a max contract (as opposed to rolling the dice for a player on the come), well, let’s all get comfortable watching the draft lottery each and every year.

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Sautee, is Joe’s average production below the average production of the maxed-out player? That would be the fair analysis. You can’t take the players at the top end of production and ignore the Marbury’s, Stevie Franchises and Szcerbiak’s at the bottom of it. I don’t know the answer but I do know that if we lose Joe because we don’t want to give our 3-time All-Star and guy who led the team out of a nine year playoff drought an extra $2M/year when he turns 28 or 29, well, I wonder what proven superstar will be anxious to join us to keep us out of the lottery. I suspect that teams hurt themselves more when they give a guy double his production (like AK-47, Dampier or Shaq) as opposed to maybe 15-20% more than he deserves.

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Hawks need to take Johnny Flynn if he’s available, or trade up for him. He’s like Chris Paul in a lot of ways, and possibly a better athlete with a better(6′4″) wingspan, & hops. They need to package someone w/their pick to get this guy. He will be the real deal. He’s got the leadership skills. Hawks, listen up!

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AJ,

I took the 5 salaries closest to Joe’s. It COULD have been a Marbury or a Francis, but it wasn’t. I don’t think that’s an unfair way to compare. I didn’t go LOOKING for high production to compare him to. That’s where he fell in the salary scale. So I think it’s absolutely fair to compare his production to players he’s paid the same as. Doesn’t that happen at your place of work?

Look, when we signed Joe to a max contract, we thought we’d get something along the lines of DWade. We didn’t. That doesn’t make Joe a failure in my eyes, it just means that Billy was so eager that he slightly overpaid. But just slightly.

It happens every day in the NBA. The trick is, to correct without over correcting for the NEXT contract.

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I was just reading about how Patty Mills is slipping in the draft. They say he did little in this tournament to change most gm’s mind about his game. They pointed out he did more shooting than actually setting his teammates up. Take it for what its worth.

When Joe was hurt our offense looked better in my opinion. Woodson wasn’t relying on Joe so much so it got other guys involved. I know Joe is the number one option here but those stats Bradley put up of him a few weeks back said a lot. He takes more shots than some NBA stars and Joe is not even close to being a star. I know he is doubled and yada yada yada but people fail to mention how slow he reacts to those double teams, or how he pounds and pounds the ball, or the bad shots he takes. Maybe it is the offense but Joe has to take some blame as well. We really need to get an offensive minded coach in here to get us a real system that way Joe is not asked to do everything and other guys can get involved in the offense. As I said before I just don’t see Joe getting any better. Woodson has ran him down. His shooting percentages are nothing like they once were and for a guy who plays as many minutes and takes as many shots one would think he would produce more. Trying to get the guy into all star games, forcing him to defend other teams pg’s , and running everything through him will catch up to Joe soon if it already hasn’t.

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That’s right. I just said “vicissitudes.” You got a problem with that?

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Also, JJ was not offerd a contract by the Pheonix Suns. They mad him go and find an offer.

I would be pissed too. JJ was like: “MAAANN, I JUST BROKE MY FACE FOR THIS ORGANIZATION AND CAME BACKE FOR THE PLAYOFFS DESPITE DOCTORS ORDERS TO HELP THIS TEAM AND Y’ALL CAN’T EVEN GIVE ME AN OFFER??? ON TOP OF ALL OF THAT, YOU THREATEN MY POTENTIAL FUTURE EMPLOYERS BY SAYING YOU WILL MATCH ANY OFFER IN AN ATTEMPT TO LOWBALL ME IN A CONTRACT THAT ISN’T WORH MY ACTUAL VALUE??? I WAS WILLING TO WORK IT OUT, I DIDN’T EVEN WANT THAT MUCH. I MEAN I’M ALREADY A MILLIONARE.”

I knoew I wouldn’t want to work for a company that did that to me. You can’t even talk to the boss candidly because he doesn’t give a damn about you…..that would suck. Personally, I would find a new job and quit…and that’s exactly what Joe did.

Billy Knight was one of the only GM’s around the leauge with the balls to offer JJ a fair contract, I don’t even think the suns would havematched it personally.

Sund treated Josh and Smoove the same way. Smooove just has high character and stuck with it because he loves his city, besides, unlike Chills, he was given an offer bforehand, and just choose to find a better one. Luckily smoove didn’t break his face or anything like that last season lol. Or we would’ve had anotehr JJ situation on our hands.

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“I think JJ left Phoenix because he didn’t see himself as a fourth option on offense and thought he could play a bigger role on a winning team than he could if he took lower pay to stay in Phoenix (and four years out, whaddya know – JJ was scoring 21ppg and was the only member of that Suns starting 5 that was still playing in May).”

Who are we gonna believe, nire or Joe’s lying words? heh heh

Damn, nire, you didn’t even FEEL the hook on THAT one!

Also: if you said this: “I gotta laugh at anyone who puts up stats as the measure of what a player brings to the table. Come on.”

Then why even reference this: ” Look at the next 4 above the 5 you misleadingly* (see below) placed alongside JJ. Arenas, Ben Wallace, Odom, and Zach Randolph. Why don’t you put up THEIR numbers and compare? Oh, sorry, that would show how foolish this “production and pay” reasoning is”????

I guess you laughed at yourself as you typed, eh?

If “production vs. pay is SO unimportant, then why do you say that Horford should be untrade-able in your eyes because of the production we get from him on a rookie contract (which I’ve agreed with on several occasions)?

If production vs. pay is SO unimportant, then why were you ALL OVER Josh Smith for signing a new contract and having his numbers drop across the board?

Wouldn’t be that thinly disguised disdain now, would it?

I’ll say this. I was NOT “cherry picking” stats to bolster an argument. I got curious as to how JJ measured up against others at his pay, so I chose the nearest 5 salaries. Totally arbitrary and I certainly didn’t have the time it would take to do a true statistical analysis. I was VERY surprised to see who the nearest 5 were, because I just don’t keep up with that stuff. Of COURSE there are worse cases, and if any of THOSE had been in the 5 nearest salaries, I would have included them as well. As it was, I inadvertently left off Lamar Odum.

Yes, it’s a snapshot of this year only. But it was what I had and I found it informative. You don’t have to.

I just hope Rick Sund looks at the production aspect (and it’s his JOB to do so) before offering an extension.

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Sautee, thanks,

After researching, I found martin avg. 2.86 TO this season
Joe avg. 2.47 TO this season.
However,
Career avg. Martin has 1.67 to joe’s 2.23 TO

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And NOW I’m done.

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Sekou,

I meant to point this out on your last article, but I forgot:

The Hawks don’t have Bird rights on Flip Murray, so even if they sign him as cheaply as they signed Mo Evans ($2.5M/per), then they’ll have to use part of their Mid-Level Exception.

Doing so would leave them no more than $3.5M to sign another team’s FA (I’m being pretty liberal with that total, too). In other words, it’s EITHER Flip or Charlie V, but not both.

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[quote name='DrReality' date='Jun 6 2009, 08:13 PM' post='387850']
When I was in Turkey I played in one city, same team for six years…

…At 25 and six years into your NBA career… [/quote]

Zaza was at most 13 when he started his pro career. Did he play in any other place? He must have played in some local league before a Turkish club picked him up.

Zaza was the on hiw way to become Wilt/Shaq as a in his pre-teen. What happened?

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Stewart Scoot makes u sick on stomach the way he over-hype every stat that he reads…u would think that this cat never sat feet on the asphalt, hardwood, foot ball field, whatever!!!

I probably eat crow on this one…but I’m calling a win for the Magic to nite!!!!!

If I’m Vangondy I would have stayed the course and kept Nelson inactive…we will see how this all turns out.

I want waste my time with the refs.

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Put the College of Charleston in the dam game!!!

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At what point will Rafer drive the ball to the basket??? And some complain about Josh jacking up jumpshots… My goodness….

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Najeh,

Stop Magic-hatin’.

O’brien,

The perspective on disrespect appears to be a matter or convenience, eh? Stirrin’ the pot…stirrin’ the pot…

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Nire,

about this: “I don’t believe ANY salary-based reasoning is a good way to compare players.”

ok, so that’s what you think. BUT………

When you were posting to Melvin a couple of days ago you said “The league is littered with overpaid and/or mediocre PGs (Beno Udrih, Luke Ridnour, Daniel Gibson, Jamaal Tinsley…Speedy…), ”

So exactly what method did you use to make that “overpaid” assertion? hmmmmm………

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3 questionable calls on Orlando in a row…

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I didn’t see the atrocity that was Game 1, but this game has had the works — awful officiating, way too many 3-pointers taken, inconsistent-at-best ball movement, and stupid mistakes by both teams. The Magic in particular run one of the most hideous offenses I’ve ever seen — stand around and jack up jumpshots and hope your dominant big man rebounds the misses. The fact that it’s actually working for them only shows how eager the Lakers have been to shoot themselves in the foot in this game. With their talent, every game the Lakers play in this series should be a 25-point blowout.

Last year’s Celtics or the Parker-Ginobili-Duncan Spurs in their prime would have CRUSHED both of these teams. After a great playoffs, this is shaping up to be a really horrible NBA Finals. Sorry for being a hater, but I’m calling it as I see it. I’d rather see iso-Bron all game than this travashamockery.

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Najeh,

If you’re going to say that then I would like to raise the issue that I wish KG wouldn’t have gotten hurt b/c it would be the Celtics in the finals and KG would’ve punk Gasol, Bynum and Odom. And Paul P. would have own Ariza…

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Najeh,

Just read your 10:28 post, agreed…

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Hedo or Hero…

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O’Brien,

So we don’t have that?

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Najeh,

I was just kidding with you. I know you wanted the Cavs to win.

The Truth,

Wow. You’re right, though.

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Get Josh Smith’s twin Charlie Villanueva.
Draft ANOTHER point guard after failing to develop the last one.
Fail to resign Zaza and Flip.

Do these three things and you are certain to lose this fan.

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Good 12:01 post Sautee……… Thats basicly where i wuz going….. Good player but not Max Money type……

! JJ- “Im a jump shooter, and i almost never get to the rim when i drive. Also i dont like contact,but I do luv to pound that ball. Hey theirs 3 seconds on theshot clock i better pass to Josh”

Little early morning humor……

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LOL @ I.MUS

But, you know JJ absorbs contact like a sponge and never gets the call….

I mean if y’all want to trade JJ for those other players fine. Tell Sund, maybe the move won’t set the franchise back another ten years……anything is possible.

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you guys are loosing it talking about any deal for Caron involving Joe… haha… wow… and start another rebuilding process… Caron is nowhere near the player of Joe Johnson…

Joe is the 3rd best SG in the league… he should be a Hawk as long as he wants to play here…

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The Truth,

Read my post, man. I admitted that the non-Big Three players were awful on offense and didn’t execute well. But you can’t tell me that they harassed the Lakers on D. Lee’s missed layup was not exactly an easy shot…it was from behind the backboard while falling out of bounds. Come on, man.

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Why would you even consider trading a 3-time all star for a broken down SF, unproven center & a pick. Lunacy!

I would trade Marvin & our #19 pick for those guys. Not a proven commodity like JJ.

I like the fact the Jackson & Van Gundy have made changes to their offense & defense for this series. Both, especially Phil, have stated over & over again that their bench players will determine the outcome. Nice to know some coaches realize that bench utilization is key.

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Come on big dave -you cant believe that……. JJ the 3rd best sg in the league….. Heres 3 to start with-Wade,Kobe,Ginobilli

I totaly forgot Devin harris was a free agent. He would be a nice pg for us …i’d rather have him than -Sessions,jack,Ridnour-uuuuugh etc….
Then again in our offense he would morph into a stand still jump shooter and not the one man fast break that he truly is. Yeah dump bibby and offer Harris 10 mill a year

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IMUS,
I agree Kobe and D.Wade are 1 & 2 but I’m not sure if Ginobilli is better than Joe. I think Joe would put up better number than him if he played alongside Duncan and Parker….
Also, its been awhile since you went undercover to get some Hawks inside info….

Nire,
I thought that was a tough shot that Lee took at the end of the game as well, especially with Kobe pulling his jersey prior to him jumping for the alley oop….

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Do you think Woodson would have drawn up a play other than to say “shoot a 35 footer” to JJ?

Great call by Van Gundy.

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Phil has 5 players with 38+ minutes in the OT game and he gets applauded for utilizing his bench? SVG shows “confidence” in running a play for a starter who only received 12 minutes of playing time in a game with 53 minutes?

Spin doctors are most definitely in the house today.

Had that been Woody on either bench, we would have heard…

“Why is he playing 5 guys for 38+ minutes or 4 guys for more than 40 in this game… doesn’t he realize that he can’t do that in the 100th game of the season for these players?”

Or, “why would he run a play for a guy who only took 2 shots previous to the last second shot? That makes no sense, he obviously has no clue how to run an offense if he thinks that anyone can just make a pressure-filled shot like that”.

Sheesh!

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Sautee,

I’m not going to criticize a guy who’s attemping to finish a difficult alley oop play with less than a second on the clock. Would it been a different outcome had the Refs call Kobe for holding his jersey? Go back and look at the play again. Kobe held Lee so bad on that play until he pull his jersey out of his shorts. Maybe that’s what thru Lee timing off preventing him from catching the ball in a better position to finish the play…

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Melvin, I agree. Kobe got away with that one….

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Trade PF JSmith to Philly for C SDalembert, and a and 2nd rd pick. In 24.8mins Dalembert averaged 8.5 RPG, 1.78 BPG and 6.04PPG while in 35.1mins JSmith averaged 7.2RPG, 1.60BPG and 15.6PPG. Then we use those Picks and expiring contracts to trade for PG KHinrick. Remember, in the 07-08 season, SDalembert played 33.1mins and averaged a double double, 10.4RPG, 2.34BPG and 10.5PPG.

That would leave us with a starting lineup of:

PG-KHinrick
SG-JJohnson
SF-MWilliams
PF-AHorford
C–SDalembert
BENCH
SF/SG-JChildress
PG—-ALaw
SG/PG-FMurray
PF—-OHunter
C/PF–SJones
C/PF–ZPachulia or FA
SF/SG-MEvans

This would be a strong starting lineup defensively, at all positions, and very strong rebounding wise. It would also meet the Woody factor, which is a lot more important than some of you seem to think. Although this lineup would lose some scoring with the loss of MBibby and JSmith, it would more than make it up DEF by reducing the PPG allowed.

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Ken you forgot about E. Brand, Philly has a lot of money tied up in him.

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Hoops,

I will try to answer your question of Niremetal, you can make trades as long as the salaries are relatively close, not sure what the %…. maybe 125% plus 100,000 or something like that, as long as you have cap space, you can trade no matter if salaries match or not. Technically the Hawks are over to cap. so to do that, I think the Hawks would have to renounce rights to free agents to clear space to compensate for the difference in the salary that they received. For instance, if the Hawks traded Josh Smith who makes a little over 10 million, if the Hawks wanted to take back a player that made 15 million, they would have to clear cap space by renouncing players and getting under the cap by say roughly 3 million or so, to be within the ratio of 125%.

Ken Strickland,

I am a big Josh Smith fan, but I know its a business and am all for making the team better. Sure a move like that would make us bigger, and I can see a reason for justifying the Hawks making such a move, but why would Philly want to make that deal? Are you telling me they are willing to trade their one and only true center for Josh? They already owe big money to Elton Brand who plays the same position as Josh, so I dont see that deal happening.

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Melvin -i wuz thinking the same thing, If we were to trade Josh to Philli….. Thad young better be apart of the package

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please… Manu “Im Going Left Every Time ” Ginobili … give me a break…

he’ll be hard pressed finding that game again on that iffy left ankle…

Joe Johnson sir… BUILD AROUND THIS GUY..

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Sautee,

No time to argue, man. You’re taking my words out of context and I’m sick of this back-and-forth BS where you go find a post I made a few days ago, seize on one word, and then try to show me up for it. Too much to do to deal with this. I never said a player never could be “overpaid.” I said that pay vs. production reasoning doesn’t tell the whole the story unless you look at the broader picture, and taking the player’s pay and production as a snapshot out of context of the NBA salary structure makes no sense. Sometimes I said “pay vs. production” reasoning or something to that effect as shorthand because otherwise my posts would be 2534534 words long.

If you want to pick apart a single word or set up straw men with my arguments, be my guest. But my patience is up. I don’t have time for this BS anymore. Engage my arguments. Don’t make caricatures of them and then expect me to respond.

But seriously.

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Niremetal
Yes there were some improvements to the Magic’s defense relative to the 1st game which I acknowledged favorably via coaching adjustments. This is perhaps our common ground. But overall taking both games into account, I have to side with Stan Van Gundy about his team performance as I indicated. Regarding Lee’s missed shot; it is what it is, he missed. In the grandest of stage as the NBA finals, those are the plays that separate the champions from the pretenders. Yes you argue that it was a difficult shot but it was certainly doable. But the bottom line is that he missed and they lost and now down 0-2. However, I do marvel at the coach for drawing that play up. I wish Woody had that kind of coaching IQ. If he was in that situation, we all know what play he would have called: ISO JOE WITH 3 DEFENDERS ON HIM. No element of surprise. We would have gotten what we expected, THE SAME OLD, SAME OLD.

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MELVIN-I didn’t specify when the trade should take place. If we can make it happen during the playoffs, then let it happen.

KWOODEN-I didn’t forget EBrand. What I forgot was ZPachulia. I had in my mind a sign and trade with he and JSmith, since he wants another chance to start again. What we get in return, in addition to Dalembert, would be negotiable.

GLW-Like I said to KWOODEN, I forgot to include ZPachulia in the mix. Also, wtih the extreme chemistry issues EBrand created for Philly, they might want to reconsider their decision to take him over Josh. Another chance to get Josh might make them consider sending EBrand packing. This team will never get to the next level as long as the SAASG keeps forcing HC MWoodson to use players drafted by former GM BKnight, that don’t fit his OFF/DEF system. Since the SAASG has obviously provided Woodson with unwavering support, they owe it to him to get the type of players that meet with his approval and fits his OFF/DEF systems.

I believe the lineup I persented will meet with Woodson’s approval and do a better job of excuting his flawed OFF/DEF systems. I don’t dislike his approach to being a HC enough to want him to fail, because that would mean the team also fails. If we can get to the next level with him as HC, I’d be happy.

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Ken Strickland,

Well that deal does make more sense, but I still doubt Philly goes for it. But I agree with you, I was shocked when they threw money at Brand. I think he does mess up their chemistry and Josh Smith would have been a better fit for them, oh well, thats their loss.

I agree with you and “Woody’s flawed system, Woodson reminds me of an old school coach set in his ways and the best solution is probably finding players that are adapt at his system. For Woodys system to work aka known as the “Joe and Bibby Show”, his best bet is to surround them with shooters. Under that theory, its best to add a frontcourt player that can shoot, either a Rasheed Wallace/Charlie V type. And a 2nd post players must be developed, Sheed has an inside out game, but like has previously been discussed he might be out of the price range. Barring a trade, the next best alternative is to hope that Horford or Smoove develop a low post game, not sure I see that happening as fast as we would like.

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Draft Hansbrough, Sign Sheed, Sign Green, Sign Anthony Parker, Trade speedy+Cash+Randolph(if necessary) to move up higher for our second draft Pick and Draft Pactick Mills. Resign Bibby/Flip(3 year contract….). Also If you can’t get Sheed, the sign Brandon Bass and trader one of our Bigs later for a Bigger Center or keep them all and pray to God that we get Lucky in the 2010 NBA Draft.

Since this is my little concoction and i’m the Imaginary GM here, finances arent’t an Issue.

Larry O’Brien contenders for sure…..yup

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Also, then Give Woody until the All-Star break. If he STILL sucks at coaching, then fire him and bring in the Litte General pronto.

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newkid, sounds like you believe in the best player available approach to the draft, regardless of position need.

Ariose, why Avery Johnson? Starting with game 3 of The Finals against Miami, tell me why he would be the best of all the available coaches out there.

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Sautee,

I admit that I probably took some bar-related frustration out on you. The exam is July 28-29, so I have a long ways to go. I guess what bugged me more is that you basically demanded a reply by re-posting your earlier question, and I didn’t appreciate being put in the position where I felt like I needed to either respond or risk looking like I was ducking a question. I know that wasn’t your attention, but that’s the position I felt it put me in.

Now for the context. The “salary-based reasoning” was supposed to be shorthand for “production-vs-salary based reasoning” or something to that effect. The “overpaid” comment was from a running conversation on why we wouldn’t be able to get Hinrich for a bag of peanuts (a part of the context that WAS important that you left out). The reason is simple – GMs are willing to pay a lot more to get quality PGs (and centers) than they are to get players at any other position on the floor.

I think that pretty much everyone will agree that there IS a point past which a player can be considered “overpaid” pretty much beyond argument. The most obvious are guys like Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz, and Eddy Curry who pull down 10-figure salaries but don’t play a single game (in those cases, they barely have seen the floor for over two years). And a disproportionate number of those clearly overpaid players (as well as arguably overpaid players) ARE either PGs or centers, simply because the demand for their services greatly outstrips the supply. Teams are willing to roll the dice that an oft-injured player will stay healthy (like Tinsley or Curry or Speedy), or that a guy who turned in one good year (like Ike Austin) or even one good playoff game and half a good season (like Daniel Gibson) will maintain or improve, or that an underachieving player will put it all together (like Curry or Tyson Chandler), or that a borderline starter on a mediocre team will make the leap to solid starter on a good team (like LaFrentz or Ridnour) when that player is a big man or a point guard, or that a player clearly on the downswing of his career will maintain his production (Rod Strickland is the example I can think of, although I’m sure there are more recent ones).

That was all reasoning to support a broader, in-context point – that we shouldn’t fool ourselves into thinking that we will be the only one interested in the services of Hinrich. I guarantee that some team will be willing to pony up more appealing assets for Hinrich than the expiring contracts of two players who would probably never see the floor for Chicago. The mere fact that he’s a serviceable point guard means that there will probably be a few teams willing to overlook his price tag and less-than-All-Star pedigree and give up significant assets to get him there, hoping that he’ll become the next Steve Nash.

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The Hawks have plenty of issues to address. We have to decide if our future is tied to Mike Bibby. My vote is to push to sign a point guard (perhaps a couple of PGs) first and foremost. Of course, we must resign Zaza Pachulia. That is obvious. I believe that it is going to be much more challenging than we all think.

I hear that Jarrett Jack is an unrestricted free agent. If that is the case, we must make a play for him. He brings a toughness that our team really lacks. If we were able to snag Jack, we have a guy who can play both guard positions and gives us depth. You mentioned Marvin Williams and Sheldon Williams as Billy Knight busts. How about Mr. Bust, Acie Law. I know that there were some AJC cheerleaders in his corner. This guy is not 11th pick material. Period!

Another talented PG on the board is Ramon Sessions, who was amazing for the Bucks during the second half of the season. If we are in a position to get Sessions and Jack, we can move on without Bibby, especially if we can solidify Flip Saunders. That would give us Jack (combo guard), Saunders (combo guard), and Sessions (point guard) in the backcourt with Joe Johnson.

I would also take Andre Miller or Jason Kidd at PG with Joe Johnson.

As for posts, I would be giddy for Charlie Villanueva. I would also be giddy Atlanta became aggressors and jumped into the Al Jeffereson-Stakes. Jefferson was one of the top 3 or 4 centers in the NBA prior to his injury. He was the lynchpin in the Kevin Garnett to Boston deal with the Minnesota Timberwolves. After his injury, Kevin Love played well. Jefferson is high value. However, Minnesota may not match a deal. Who would have thought that Joe Johnson would have come to Atlanta from Phoenix? He was a restricted free agent. We need to take a long look at Jefferson.

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Joe, I’m not smart enough to have worked out a system of strongly held beliefs regarding drafting talent over need or need over talent. What I do know is despite having had numerous opportunities over the past several years, we’ve far too often failed miserably – when excellent talent was available – in building a very deep and skilled side. Was the failure because we drafted need over talent? Not sure, but I’m sure the evidence clearly indicates that we’ve screwed up (for whatever the reasons) far too often. The only other thing I’m sure of tonight is I didn’t get a single nibble on my line while tooling around on the water for the past 3 hours, but got plenty skeeter bites.

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Niremetel, your 6.32 post was one of the best I’ve seen

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Astro Joe,

That was pretty much the premise, although I wanted to put emphasis on the idea of Woody coaching us in the Finals. Again, if he’s doing that, the only complaint you really SHOULD be hearing from detractors such as myself (yes, I can admit my issues ) should be, “Hey, can somebody get me a Placker or a toothpick? I can’t get this crow out of my teeth. I’ve got so much of it stuck in here, my mouth looks like a damn feather duster.” ….hee hee hee….

And you’re right, the logic doesn’t work for all coaches, when saying that coaches in the Finals are better than those who are not. Good observation. Of course, I also realize that logic in general can be, and often is undermined by some sort of exception at some point.

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I have seen the campaign to trade Josh for Bosh numerous times on here but I can’t understand why the Raptors would go for that deal. Reason being, Josh and A.Bargainin(misp) are both finesse players. At least Bosh, would bang in the paint and grab double digits rebounds but Bargainin/Josh front court would be too weak to defend opposing teams frontcourts in my veiw. I would think the Raps would seek more of a banger (Horford type) to play alongside Bargainin. These are just my thoughts…

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Although I’ve made jokes about it, I’d have to lean towards the side of NOT hiring Avery Johnson. The guy is clearly abrasive (though anybody might be when coaching a head-case team like the Mavs). And I can’t prove he’s a bad coach, but I also can’t prove he’s a bonafide good one, either.

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Ed, I think Anthony Parker is an unrestricted free agent, so you cannot trade for him. He might make an excellent guy to play PG for the Hawks as a stop gap for a year or two. He did well in that role for the Raptors this when Calderon was out.

As for matchups, you can play him with Flip and cross the D (i.e. let Flip guard the 1 and Parker guard the 2). When he plays with Joe, the size at PG at least makes it more difficult for the smaller, quicker guards to see around him in the half court…and it makes the switching D work better.

At this point, he could replace Claxton on the bench once he’s traded, but you get more use.

BWAF

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GLW-the more I think about it the more I realize the trade I suggested isn’t the best solution for the Hawks or Philly. The trade that would offer the best solution for both teams would be trading JSmith to Philly for EBrand. EBrand is just as good a rebounder and shot blocker as JSmith, and he’s a much much more efficient and skilled inside scorer and midrange jumpshooter.

His inside scoring effeciency would command double teams that would make JJ much more effective. JJ would actually be able to go 1 on 1 instead of 1 on 2 or 3, like in the past. EBrand would also allow us to develop an OFF indentify, since every team would know it had to stop him in the post. With he and JJ Mr inside and Mr outside, teams would have to pick their poison.

Adding PG KHinrick wouldn’t hurt us offensively and he would definitely make us much better overall defensively. Adding PF EBrand wouldn’t hurt us defensively and he would definitely make us much more effecient and better overall offensively. Hinrick and Brand would make Woodson’s limited OFF/DEF much more effective, as well as eliminate some of the problems he has as a HC. Keep in mind, Hinrink is just a suggestion, because any experienced PG that can shoot and play DEF would do.

PG-KHinrick
SG-JJohnson
SF-MWilliams
PF-EBrand
C–AHorford

BENCH
ZPachulia
JChildress
TGardner or MWest
ALaw
OHunter
FA signee or draftee

Brand’s salary is $13.8M and JSmith’s is $10M. Throw in the $2.5M and $797.6K salaries of MEvans and RMorris and all that’s left is to make it happen. With Bibby’s 15M, Speedy’s 5.76M and SJones’(I don’t see him resigning to endure more of Woodsons BS) $797.5K coming off the books, we’d have over $21M to work with after trading for EBrand. With that kind of money, we could certainly afford to get a quality PG and resign MWilliams, ZPachulia and RMurray.

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