Superman’s return!
Superman has put the entire league on notice with his performance in these playoffs.
HAWKSVILLE - Next time I’ll listen.
In the wake of the Hawks’ being swept out of the Eastern Conference semifinals against Cleveland, people that watch NBA basketball as much and as hard as I do kept warning me that Dwight Howard and the Orlando Magic would end the reign of the King (LeBron James).
No one was more vocal about it than Tracy Johnson (Joe Johnson’s uncle) of Little Rock, Ark. He warned me several times, and he actually started during the Magic-Celtics series, not to put too much stock in Cleveland’s four-game demolition of the Hawks in the Eastern Conference semifinals.
The “matchups” would carry the Magic, he said. And he was right. The Cavaliers never did find an answer for Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu. I’m not sure they made a sincere attempt to find an answer.
Well, there is no answer, at least not a one-man answer, for Howard, who has stolen James’ thunder as the youngest and most promising NBA talent in these playoffs.
Tracy’s warnings went beyond the playoffs, though, extending to the Hawks’ issues in the Southeast Division – if you haven’t noticed already, there’s a big bad bully on the block now in the division and the Eastern Conference and it’s not the King (who remains the most mercurial talent of his generation).
It’s Howard.
Even worse for the Hawks and everyone else, there is no Mickael Pietrus for Howard. Pietrus effectively harassed James long enough on the defensive end to allow the Magic’s other matchup advantages to swing the series. And when given a choice between defending the Magic’s 3-point shooters or double-teaming Howard … the phrase pick your poison doesn’t do it justice.
Now, the rest of the division, the Eastern Conference and perhaps the league (depending on what happens in the NBA Finals) must figure out how to build a team capable of beating Howard’s Magic.
YOU WON’T FIND A SOLUTION FOR HOWARD IN THE NBA DRAFT. No one stacks up physically, shoulder to outlandishly buff shoulder to the former Southwest Atlanta Christian star.
And the measurements from the NBA’s pre-draft combine in Chicago made that abundantly clear. Our friends at DraftExpress (one stop shopping for all things draft) were kind of enough to compile and share this handy chart for our viewing pleasure. To say this draft is light on big bodies would be an extreme understatement.
By my count, there are only 12 players that measured a legitimate 6-9 or taller. Just 12. That’s not exactly a smorgasboard of options for teams in need. The bigger question is where have all the big boys gone?
That shallow pool of bog bodies makes the prospect of locating a quality big man in this draft extremely difficult for teams picking outside of the lottery (teams like the Hawks).
Chasing a big man in the draft can be a dangerous proposition. Exhibit A, Shelden Williams.
Still, I’m hearing rumblings that North Carolina’s Tyler Hansbrough is one of this draft’s risers right now. The Hawks are in need of help along the frontcourt but I was thinking someone bigger than Hansbrough. Still, if they’re on the board at 19 and have Hansbrough rated higher than any of the point guards available …. it’s happened here before folks (Shelden Williams over Brandon Roy ranks up high in the draft gaffe Hall of Fame). You know it as well as I do. NBA executives always tend to value size over anything else, to their own detriment most times.
My two favorite point guards in this draft, North Carolina’s Ty Lawson and Syracuse’s Jonny Flynn, are nearly identical in every department (a shade over 6-foot, a couple ounces over 195 pounds depending on what they ate for breakfast that day). I’m a lot less interested in their combine numbers than I am in what they do when the big lights come on. And both of these guys get it done come game time.
IN ADDITION TO THE DRAFT CHATTER, FREE AGENT AND TRADE TALK IS HEATING UP around the league. That’s always a good thing for us, since the prospect of something that’s virtually impossible always seems to generate a greater response than anything remotely possible.
The Hawks won’t be the only team scouring the NBA landscape for frontcourt help this summer. Apparently the team that vanquished them in the playoffs is in need of a little updgrde up front as well, per my man Bob Finnan of the News Herald in suburban Cleveland.
One player mentioned in Bob’s story that will no doubt be mentioned in many others as the summer drags on is Hawks reserve center Zaza Pachulia.
Every playoff team in need of a depth along the frontline is going to be interested in a player like Zaza, for obvious reasons (he has the size, experienced and ability needed to play a vital role for a contender plus he’s going to be affordable for most teams because he’ll command a salary around the mid-level exception over the course of the next three or four years – similar to the four-year $16 million deal he just finished up with the Hawks).
The Hawks can ill afford to lose a quality big man like Zaza Pachulia in these trying economic times around the NBA.
Pachulia’s an unrestricted free agent, meaning the Hawks will have to compete to keep him. And I’m not sure he isn’t there most crucial free agent they need to retain because of the dearth of quality and affordable bigs on the market.
I know several of the Hawks’ competitors in the Eastern Conference are interested, I’ve spoken to executives from four teams that have brought his name up in our conversations over the past two weeks.
There are other guys in that realm with higher profiles (guys like Rasheed Wallace, Antonio McDyess, Chris Wilcox, Joe Smith and others) that are a bit of a risk compared to Pachulia because they’re older and perhaps will command a bit more money (in the case of Wallace).
I thought Pachulia was a monster bargain when the Hawks snagged him initially. The expectations were raised after his first season with the team, when he was thrust into a starting role and flourished after Jason Collier’s sudden and tragic death. Pachulia for anything near the same price right now is an equally monstrous bargain.
I know everyone is always interested in upgrading. But sometimes it’s not nearly as easy you might think to get a better bang for your buck. And whatever you think of Pachulia, he’s a good bargain for a player with his credentials.
BACK TO THE DRAFT BUZZ, the one player’s name that keeps coming up in all the conversations I’m having with people is Jrue Holiday. The UCLA point guard, who has yet to cement his draft situation by hiring an agent, is following in the footsteps for former Bruin and Oklahoma City standout Russell Westbrook.
Both players played alongside a pretty good point guard in his own right (Darren Collison) and both played in the ultra-structured system of Bruins coach Ben Howland, so like Westbrook, there’s likely a lot more to Holiday’s game that we haven’t seen yet.
Holiday’s work at the pre-draft camp, coupled with his fantastic size (6-4 and change and a solid 200 pounds) and tremendous ceiling (he’s just 18) has done wonders for his stock with NBA types. If he decides to stay in the draft, he’s all but worked his way out of the Hawks’ range at 19.
Holiday's stock is on the rise after impressive showings in workouts and at the Chicago pre-draft camp.
While the buzz about Holiday intensifies, the buzz about fellow California teenage point guard Brandon Jennings appears headed in the opposite direction. A less then stellar showing in Italy this past season didn’t help the preps-to-Europe trailblazer’s cause, though I can’t imagine what anyone expected of him making that kind of transition (I’ll be curious to see if their are similar, oversized expectations placed on Ricky Rubio if his first year in the NBA is next season).
Jennings reportedly spurned an offer to work out at the Reebok Eurobcamp (their version of the pre-draft camp), sending NBA executives scurrying to find answers as to why he would pass up an opportunity to “compete” in front of the assembled brass. But what more do you need to see from Jennings to make an adequate assessment of his game?
If you need more on the draft crop, though, check out the athleticism test results from the pre-draft camp (courtesy of our friends at nbadraft.net, yet another fabulous site devoted to all things draft).
SPEAKING OF EXPECTATIONS GONE AWRY, I CANNOT BELIEVE FOLKS ARE STILL groaning about the Marvin Williams-is-not-Chris-Paul madness.
I know it hurts for some of us to do this, even after all these years, but it really is time to let go. Just throw darts at your Billy Knight poster for the rest of your life. But let it go.
And for the record, Marvin wasn’t the No. 1 pick in that 2005 draft. That honor belonged to Milwaukee’s Andrew Bogut, who has yet to distinguish himself as anything other than a wanna-be-dominant NBA big man (I’d argue that Toronto’s Andrea Bargnani is looking like a better pick these days).
Marvin’s first four years have been respectable and far from bust material (anyone seen Darko Milicic in a uniform lately? Anyone. Anyone. Bueller?).
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552 comments Add your comment
bushwacker
June 3rd, 2009
10:04 am
The Hawks need to seriously go after LeBron, he wants out of Cleveland and the Hawks already have the talent he needs around him to win a championship, think about, where will he have a better chance to win it all, New York, I don’t think so, not with their current lineup, or ATL??
Ariose
June 3rd, 2009
10:15 am
LBJ is a crybaby chump…..forget about that oversized munchkin
6′8 Gerald Green is unrestricted. He hasn’t done anything in his career…….He will come for the minimum. I think it’s worth a look anyway. A one year contract…..he’s better than what’s been at the end of our bench lately…
O'brien
June 3rd, 2009
10:48 am
Sekou, do you think the Hawks will try to extend JJ before his contract expires? Next offseason, if a team loses out on Lebron, Bosh, Wade, etc., they might come after JJ as a consolation prize. And if I am Cleveland, after addressing the frontcourt this offseason, I’m looking at JJ to be Robin to Lebron’s batman.
How ironic would it be if JJ signs somewhere else, while the Hawks are still stuck in an ownership battle…
Ariose
June 3rd, 2009
10:53 am
Does anyone else find it fishy that Austin Daye tested at last week’s NBA Draft Combine in Chicago as the slowest, least athletic player in the entire Draft class?
It wasn’t a shock that the Gonzaga sophomore forward was the only player who couldn’t even lift the 185-pound bench press once. After all, he’s 6-foot-10 and only 192 pounds. But, when has Daye ever been described as extremely slow and unathletic? He did it all for Gonzaga over the past two seasons. He scored inside and outside, handled the ball, scored and dished in transition, threw down exciting dunks, blocked shots, and really gave Gonzaga a long, versatile player in its lineup.
Daye has loads of potential to be a terrific player in the NBA. He has Rashard Lewis, Tayshaun Prince, Lamar Odom, Thaddeus Young and Josh Howard (insert any other long, versatile small forward here) written all over him.
NBA executives have been raving lately about how impressive Daye has been in workouts. He’s been praised for his ability to do so many things exceptionally well. He’s been steadily rising up draft boards over the past few weeks. And he’s certainly impressive in interviews.
If everyone has been so excited about Daye, how is it possible that he tested as the slowest, most unathletic player out of EVERY SINGLE PLAYER at the Draft Combine?
To be fair, Hasheem Thabeet didn’t participate in the testing, and Ricky Rubio and Brandon Jennings weren’t in Chicago. But that doesn’t change much. Hopefully, for Daye’s sake, Thabeet is slower than Daye, but he would still then be the second slowest, the weakest, and the most unathletic player at the Combine.
Daye’s no-step vertical was 25 inches. The only player with a lower no-step vertical was Maryland guard Greivis Vasquez, who had a 24.5. Taj Gibson and Omri Casspi were next with 25.5.
Daye’s max vertical tested at 28 inches, which was tied with Vasquez as the absolute lowest at the Combine. No other player tested at less than 30 inches (Taj Gibson measured at 30).
As stated above, the bench press issue was no surprise. Daye is easily the skinniest player in this Draft class and he showed by not being able to lift the 185-pound bar once. Vasquez lifted the bar just one time, while Casspi did two reps.
When it came to the lane agility test, which tested players’ speed moving quickly in various directions around the lane, Jordan Hill (12.23 seconds) was the only player who finished slower than Daye (12.11 seconds).
The 3/4 court sprint is just a straight sprint down the court. Daye’s 3.5 seconds was good enough for dead last. Vasquez finished .02 seconds faster. Even BJ Mullens and DeJuan Blair (3.45 seconds) were faster than Daye.
Greivis Vasquez is a whole different issue. Most wouldn’t guess he’s the strongest, most athletic guy on the court at any time, but it’s going to be tough to play point guard in the NBA without being able to beat centers up and down the court.
But this is about Daye, the guy who has been so impressive lately in his workouts.
Is Daye really slower and less athletic than the likes of Blair, Mullens, Luke Harangody and Jeff Adrien? Is he really the slowest, weakest, least athletic player in the entire 2009 NBA Draft class?
Or was Austin Daye dogging it?
Was he told by an NBA team to perform as poorly as he could in order to make other teams not want to draft him because that certain team doesn’t want him to be drafted before that team’s pick?
Would Daye really do that?
Think about it. How many solid first round, maybe even lottery, prospects have ever been the worst or second worst in every single test? It’s one thing if he was only the weakest or only the slowest or only the least athletic, but all three?
We’re not talking about an out of shape big man here. We’re talking about Austin Daye.
Can a wing player who is the slowest, weakest, most unathletic player in the entire Draft class be a lottery pick? Apparently, it might be possible.
The question really isn’t whether or not a player like that could be a lottery pick. It’s whether or not the player in question is really what he made himself out to be last week in Chicago.
OTHER COMBINE TESTING SURPRISES AND NOTES
Stephen Curry did very well at the Combine, much better than most would have expected. He measured at a legit 6-foot-3 in shoes and 181 pounds, which is heavier than Patty Mills, Darren Collison, Jeff Teague and Eric Maynor, and only two pounds lighter than Toney Douglas.
Curry’s biggest knock has been that he is weak. Well, the former Davidson guard bench pressed 185 pounds 10 times, the same as Jonny Flynn, BJ Mullens and Tyler Smith, and more than Terrence Williams, Gerald Henderson, Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holiday and Earl Clark.
People also have said that Curry is unathletic. Well, he registered a 35.5 inch max vertical, more than Henderson, Evans, Holiday, Clark and Sam Young.
Curry did everything perfect at the Combine. He tested well, shot well and interviewed well. He could easily find himself in the top five when the Draft rolls around.
Who had the highest max vertical? It wasn’t DeMar DeRozan, Gerald Henderson, Jermaine Taylor, Blake Griffin, Derrick Brown or Tyler Smith. To the surprise of many, the only player at the Combine with a true 40 inch vertical was Jonny Flynn.
There was a lot of debate in Chicago about which point guard was the fastest of the bunch. The names thrown around were Darren Collison, Ty Lawson, Patty Mills, or maybe even Jonny Flynn. But, none of them were even the second fastest. Toney Douglas blazed through the 3/4 court sprint with an impressive 3.03 seconds, while even more surprising was the fact that Damion James was second with a 3.09. Matching Lawson and Mills’s time of 3.1 was the out-of-nowhere Jodie Meeks.
Everyone knows Blake Griffin and DeJuan Blair are beasts, but how about Luke Harangody and Derrick Brown? Harangody topped Griffin by one (23-22) for the most bench presses. That shows how hard Harangody has been working lately to get in incredible shape. Brown was third with 20 reps. The Xavier forward is not only strong and athletic, but fast, finishing with a 3.13 in the 3/4 court sprint.
Watch out for Rodrigue Beaubois, the young French point guard who is looking to make a name for himself in the NBA. He measured just an inch short of Flynn with a 39 inch vertical. The 6-foot-2 guard has a 6′ 9.75″ wingspan and had the third quickest lane agility time with a 10.49.
Former high school teammates and college rivals Wayne Ellington and Gerald Henderson both participated at the Draft Combine. Ellington has always been known as the shooter, while Henderson is the athletic one. But how about the fact that Ellington measured a 38 inch vertical, while Henderson had just a 35.5? What’s that all about? Who knew that Ellington was one of the most athletic players in this Draft class? Shooters can be deceiving. Ellington’s vertical is much like Jodie Meeks’ speed, as Meeks came in as the third fastest player at the Combine.
Link:
http://www.thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=273
Ariose
June 3rd, 2009
11:02 am
In the 2008 Olympics, as the youngest player in the history of Australian basketball, Mills averaged a team-best 14.2 points a game and had two assists and 1.7 steals in 23 minutes. As a 19-year-old, leading a team with players mostly in their mid-30s, Mills went for 20 points, three assists, two steals and no turnovers in the quarterfinals against the U.S. team.
Link:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/01/SPUM17V3VO.DTL
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
11:18 am
Chuckw/deadjournalist,
Yeah, I saw that on nbadraft.net. I’m still trying to decide whether I”m ok with that or not.
Here’s my take on Hansbrough: he’ll be one heck of a better pick at that slot than Sheldon was at #5 (or even at the same slot). I think Hansbrough has the confidence, toughness, and IQ that we wanted in 2006. He’s limited in some ways, but everybody is. The guy measures out to about a half inch shorter than Horford, and weighs 234. That’s big enough to play PF, and he’s pretty strong as well. Maybe not Dejuan Blair strong (overall), but he’s no slouch. I’ll say this: he had as many reps on the bench press as Blair did. Yep…
He’s got a decent post game, and will be able to score in the NBA despite his average (or worse, depending on who you talk to) athleticism. He won’t get to the line in the NBA nearly as much as he did in college, but when he DOES get there, he’ll hit the free throws.
On defense, he probably won’t block a lot of shots or get any other fancy defensive stats. But he’ll probably do what Horford does, and what is the very building block of defense: keep his opponent from getting good position. That, and he will hustle like a demon on the boards. On BOTH ends.
I’m betting his toughness, IQ, and sound fundamentals will make him a great role player, and solid part of somebody’s rotation. Think…maybe….a larger Matt Harpring, without the jumpshot (not that the shot can’t be improved). He’s a team-first type of guy, as he showed throughout the tournament, backing off his normal scoring in certain games, for the better of the team. Also, he plays under control. Very coachable.
If we draft him, we need to use him. I think he’s a guy that will prove that he should be a part of the regular rotation. I can see Sund going for a guy like this. As for Woody, I have no idea what that guy thinks. Really.
Meanwhile, Draftexpress has us taking Earl Clark of Louisville.
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
11:25 am
Clark is a guy with one of the dreaded tags: lots of potential or upside. He’s turnover prone. Here’s a quick tidbit from draftexpress.com:
“Given Clark’s lack of efficiency across the board, the team that picks him will be banking on him utilizing his athleticism to his advantage to create mismatches and develop the type of consistency he’ll need to be productive.”
Okay, that about sums it up for me. We already have one forward that shoots jumpers more than he should (although that idea changes once he develops and refines that jumper), and another who we don’t give the ball to enough and won’t take charge.
Clark only fits here, metaphorically speaking that is, if Billy Knight is the GM. He ain’t. If there’s one thing I think Sund and Woody are likely to agree on, it’s NOT taking Earl Clark. Woody won’t want him, and Sund won’t see the point in adding Solo 2.0….offensive potential or not.
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
11:27 am
Newkid,
That was one hell of a post at 9:40 a.m. Bravo!
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
11:37 am
Ariose,
Interesting stuff. I have no idea what’s up with Austin Daye. I’ll bet damn near anything we don’t pick him though, lol!
Johnny Flynn is going to be a beast in the NBA, I think. NBAdraft.net has Ty Lawson and Jrue Holiday going 22nd and 24th. I say both will go sooner than that, but what do I know..
Hawksgirl
June 3rd, 2009
11:43 am
Does flip play two positions? If he does he is good to have. But as for the draft hansbrough looks pretty good to me. Good to see speedy being let go, he needs to just retire. I love him but he just doesnt have his legs anymore.
newkid
June 3rd, 2009
11:52 am
Thanks Ray.
Sekou Smith
June 3rd, 2009
11:59 am
Reggie, I’m saying that when a coach, any coach, isn’t fully invested in having a player in his rotation his decision not to play him becomes that much easier. I think it was pretty clear that Salim Stoudamire wasn’t Mike Woodson’s choice and their relationship reflected as much.
So, again, whatever point guard(s) the Hawks add to the roster this summer has to be an important part of the rotation. There is no wiggle room.
Paul
June 3rd, 2009
12:13 pm
*Sekou*, what’s your feeling on trades this off-season? Could our FO trade either Horford, Marvin, or Smith? Do you feel that Sund/Woodson would try to pull off a trade for Rubio (MEM needs PF; we need another star)?
I know there can’t be much substantive – Sund plays things very close to the vest – but just your general feeling would be nice…
Sekou Smith
June 3rd, 2009
12:25 pm
Paul, I haven’t a clue until I get another chance to browbeat the Hawks’ brass when they come back from the draft workout tour.
F.I.L.A.
June 3rd, 2009
12:32 pm
Sekou please believe me when I say this MARVIN WILLIAMS WILL BE AN ALL-STAR VERY SOON!!!
Yall have got 2 wake up and see the kids talent and superstar potential..If the hawks trade him we will regret it forever…Please trust me on this Ive watch ball all my life and i know talent..Hes got “IT” and will be in this league 4 a long time..Lets make it known 2 the front office MARVIN HAS 2 STAY..
F.I.L.A.
June 3rd, 2009
12:32 pm
Enter your comments here
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
12:34 pm
Sekou,
Great point. The question comes in what happens when the GM and coach disagree about said player.
But of course, as Astro Joe illustrated, there should be no problem with an employer (Sund), telling his employee (Woody) to play a guy.
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
12:39 pm
F.I.L.A.,
I’m sure Marvin appreciates your sentiments. But until Marvin graduates from the 4th scoring option on the team, he’s not going to be anything other than another SF. While you’re writing a letter to the front office about Marvin’s impending elevation to stardom, include a note about getting him the ball more…
Samuel
June 3rd, 2009
12:40 pm
From what I saw, Tyler Hansbrough was the 3rd best player on the Tar Heels’ team this year behind Lawson and Ellington. We need a point guard and more scoring. Why would we draft a “tweener” like Hansbrough with Lawson and Ellington still on the board?
Astro Joe
June 3rd, 2009
12:44 pm
Sekou, Salim played 20 minutes a game in his rookie season. That sounds like a lot to me, especially for a 2nd round draft pick. The next season, he received 17 minutes per game. He disappeared from Woody’s radar in his thrid season. Could there have been another issue at work other than Salim not being “Woddy;s choice”? Or did BK “influence” Woody to play Salim in those first two years?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2786
Interesting dynamic, to have a lame-duck coach play an instrumental role in choosing players who may not be ready to make a significant contribution in his last contractual year. If, for example, the choice comes down to a jump-shooting PG (like Woody seemingly prefers) and a penetrating PG, will Sund opt for the guy Woody prefers? There are plenty of examples of quality PGs drafted around 19 (or later) who needed time to learn how to shoot before they reached their potential. Would Sund pass up a potential Tony Parker and choose a Dan Dickau to appease his short-term coach?
GA.BOY72
June 3rd, 2009
1:00 pm
I think Andre Miller would be a great addition to the Hawks, also C.V he has size and also a “lil” swagg…. Draft B.J Mullens if he is there the kid has UPSIDE!!!! He can grow along with Horford.
Ernest
June 3rd, 2009
1:17 pm
Sekou, great blog! Also glad to hear that everyone in the organization has not given up on Acie. I thought he was playing well while starting his first year until he go injured in the Charlotte game. I also had hope when he got a LOT of playing time in the pre-season this past year. For some reason, that did not translate to the regular season. I think all he is lacking now in confidence as he seems to play ‘looking at the bench’, hoping that a mistake does not result in being subbed for. That is not the way to play the game.
It was also good hear a definitive statement regarding Speedy’s status. The Hawks have assets that can be leveraged to improve our team. Speedy’s contract along with a player and/or draft pick could bring back a contributor to the team.
I’ll also admit I had higher hopes for Morris. He looked like a lumbering big body whenever he entered the game. Have we seen the best of him or is there room for improvement?
chuckw/deadjournalist
June 3rd, 2009
1:21 pm
Big Ray –
Personally, it would take a lot for me to buy into Hansbrough as the pick, despite the fact that everything you outline and everything I’ve read coming out of the combine defines the type of role player the Hawks need to develop to maintain their standing as a play-off caliber team. With that said, I still like Patty Mills at the pick if he is available. Hansbrough wouldn’t create a match-up problem for other team’s second units. Mills could.
A lot of players can look good in International games only to have their games not transition to the NBA. Usually it is because a player has a limited offensive repertoire or because they are play the game more methodically (read: slower) than their counterparts. Once the league has the M.O. on a guy, they can defensive him appropriately. Mills has speed and quickness, which is more difficultly defended. Additionally, his role in a leadership capacity on Olympic teams can’t be discounted at a position which should define on-court leadership.
That said, if he slips, I do not see him getting by the Lakers at the end of the first round.
Sekou Smith
June 3rd, 2009
1:28 pm
The Hawks, when healthy, are one of the few teams capable of matching up with the Magic’s size across the frontline (Dwight and Al, Turkoglu and Marvin and Rashard and Josh). The Magic’s group is better, but the Hawks can at least contend with them. But can you imagine that group with Charlie Villanueva in the mix? I saw him on the tube this morning and I’m telling you, that’s my guy this summer. I’ve had others in the past (the whole Ridnour thing is something I’m willing to reconsider at this point). But I won’t budge from Charlie V.
Daniel
June 3rd, 2009
1:36 pm
I still like Lawson at 19, but honestly, I would consider trading down and getting Toney Douglas. I know he doesn’t fit a “need”, but he is mature and ready to contribute. He could be a backcourt Shane Battier.
I agree that people really need to get over the whole CP3/ Marvin deal. First, NOBODY really was clamoring for Paul over Williams, although it seems like now EVEYONE knew Paul would turn out to be the better player. Also, last I check Chris Paul hasn’t done any better than Marvin in terms of team progress. The truth is CP3 is a semi-AI and look at that guys career. Chris Paul will never lead a team to a championship. Marvin has played well and I like him as a player. I do see him as a valuable trade piece however. I remain concerned about that back injury. I would be hesistant to give him long term money. But anyone who continues to say I would have taken CP3 over Marvin is a liar. Most of us considered Marvin, Deron Williams and Chris Paul to all be around the same level at the time. So just keep that junk to yourselves.
ILL-logical
June 3rd, 2009
1:36 pm
Sekou, both you and Mr. Bradley are pointing out two sides of the same problem: which direction will the Hawks go in after raising the bar with this season’s performance( up to but excluding Cleveland).
Your take: now that Dwight Howard’s play overshadowed The Chosen One, every team will be focusing on a strong post presence is spot on. And that that makes ZaZa more valuable to the Hawks/ other teams is precisely why it is so frustrating at the lack of development of ANY of the Hawks bigs; some of whom have both heft and height.
I hope that whatever page Sund and Woodson claim that they are mutually sharing includes some clear mandates to develop the talent that they have before engaging in the type of self serving actions that neither of them have historically proven to be adept at.
ant banks
June 3rd, 2009
1:54 pm
sekou, where do you have charlie v playin’? startin’ or comin’ off the bench? what will we lose to get ‘em
O'brien
June 3rd, 2009
2:07 pm
Sekou, I’m a big Charlie V fan as well. I also like his versatility, because he can play backup minutes at the 3 and the 4.
Would the Hawks be able to sign him outright? (Bucks do not want to spend too much money, plus they want to keep Sessions as well).
doc
June 3rd, 2009
2:17 pm
ray tyler reminds me of the type player that matt harpring is a guy who will be smart and play basketball above his ability. he will stay in the league a long time, just not a star. i like him.
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
2:20 pm
Astro Joe,
To be fair, Woody did give Stoudamire good minutes. I figure Billy probably did put the pressure on him to do so. But it also seems that Stoudamire would be right up Woody’s alley. You know, as you said-a pg who jacks it from the outside.
Only problem was, Salim never was a pg, and he was close to useless on the defensive end. Not trying to bash the guy, but he just didn’t fit here. I mean, Bibby’s not a very good defender either, but he has other skills/intangibles that Salim just didn’t have. I saw Salim as an Eddie House type. A shooting guard in a pg’s body. Stoudamire may yet find a role like House. But that may never have worked here.
One other reason I think Stoudamire got so much playing time was the same reason Law got decent playing time at first: there were no credible/consistently effective veteran pgs here at the time (Bibby, Flip). Once Bibby arrived, it was all over but the injuries for Law. Woody never said one word about Law playing or anything of the sort, until Bibby got sick. Then and only then did he talk about how nice it would have been to have Law available. It is what it is.
I have to wonder just how much Woody’s perspective is being considered in the upcoming moves. We may or may not be able to judge where this is going by the moves Sund makes.
LaBronHandshaker
June 3rd, 2009
2:21 pm
Its amazing to see the man of steel (superman) Dwight Howard in the finals. He is a great talent and the perfect center for the Magic, a team of gifted athletes and accurate shooters. However, the Lakers are a much more experienced team having made the finals last year and with the best closer and finisher in the game (Kobe Bryant), its about time for the Lakers to make the Magic disappear. Lakers in six with a huge serving of Kryptonite.
Melvin
June 3rd, 2009
2:22 pm
Sekou,
You’re Johnny-come-late to the Charlie V express. Check your old blogs, I convey during the season that the Hawks need to persue him this offseason. He could be our supersub playing mins at the 3,4 and 5 spots. Welcome aboard Sekou…..
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
2:27 pm
Doc,
I like him, too. I think he’s a good pickup for any team. Whether he’s the best choice for us depends on a number of factors, including who is available by the time we pick.
Chuckw/deadjournalist,
I agree. I think Hansbrough is a good pick for us if we can’t get a better impact player. True, he does not present a matchup problem for any team’s second unit. But if the guys we can best use are already gone, then we have to go with whoever helps us the most at that spot. In reality, I’d rather take a guard, more specifically a point guard.
I really haven’t seen enough of Mills to agree or disagree about taking him. I figure he makes the first round, especially if he’s as good as people say he is. But, the usual concerns abound with taking a pg. If we take one, it has to work out with Woody (assuming he’s around for the long haul), and whoever it is has to come into the league with enough confidence, and work hard to stay healthy.
I don’t know how much of a contributor we’ll get at this pick, but the good news is that this draft is loaded with pgs if we want one. Of course, we’re also having to be realistic: no guy we grab at #19 is likely to be starting this year or next, so no need to be worried about that. But like Sekou said, we need to solidify the pg position, and do so soon. The draft is one way to do that, when thinking about the future, that is.
Daniel
June 3rd, 2009
2:29 pm
Sekou- I like the Charlie V. call, but how about Brandon Bass?
doc- I like the comparison of Hansborough to Harpring. I think it is accurate.
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
2:35 pm
Samuel,
If I recall correctly (and I might be wrong), Sund said that he leans toward picking the best talent available when picking this low in the first round. If that’s the case (and he’s not flat crazy), then no way does he take Hansbrough over Lawson or Ellington. He would have to believe that Hansbrough would contribute more either right away or in time (read: starter or sixth man) than either Lawson or Ellington. I don’t see how he could arrive at that conclusion, but I’ve seen stranger things. Dude is known for having a…ahem…”affection” for bigs come draft time, but I can’t see him screwing this one up (unless Billy Knight put something nasty in his drink that day he had him up in the executive suite during the playoffs).
Question: Which would you take – Lawson or Ellington? I say Lawson for now…I’ll explain later.
O’brien,
I agree with you and Sekou on Charlie Villanueva. He’s a for real threat on offense. Sure torched us a couple of times. I can only imagine what it would be like, having him come off the bench for 27-30 mpg and dropping 15+ ppg. Or more. Imagine him and Flip doing their thing for us.
And if I’m Milwaukee, I keep Sessions over Charlie V. Why? Their only other option is Luke Ridnour. Exactly. Unless of course, they think they will be picking up their pg of the future in the draft. Maybe. But I’d still want to keep Sessions as an insurance policy. Ridnour can’t stay two things: healthy and effective.
Big Ray
June 3rd, 2009
2:38 pm
Tyler Hansbrough might turn out to be a better player in the NBA than many project him to be. If he’s anything like David Lee, he’s gonna be a steal.
Does that mean he’s the right pick for us, or the best fit for us? No, it does not. But that’s something Sund and his crew will have to figure out.
I’m wondering whether or not Sund will try to move up in the draft.
Melvin
June 3rd, 2009
3:00 pm
Big Ray,
Hansbrough does not have the skills set of Harping or Lee. Those guys can put the ball on the floor to get to the hoop. Hansbrough is more of a back to the basket type player. However, I do agree he has an high IQ, very active on the court and will be in the pros for years to come. With that said, I don’t like him at #19. If he end up in a Hawks uni, then I will support him otherwise I prefer a player with more offensive skills…
I think the draft will determine which RFA (Charlie or Sessions) the Bucks will keep. If they go PG, then Charlie stays as Sessions hits the road of if they go big the Sessions stays and Charlie hits the pavement. Hopefully Blair is their guy although its reported that they are very high on Flynn. ..
Ken Strickland
June 3rd, 2009
3:04 pm
If the Hawks successfully resign Bibby and Flip, it won’t matter if we draft a PG or not because he won’t get more mins, consideration, consistent or better treatment from Woodson than ALaw or SStaudamire received from him. Retaining Woodson guarantees we’ll continue having PG problems. He feels obligated to Bibby for leading the Hawks to the playoffs after the trade, AND SAVING HIS JOB.
With Bibby you get no DEF, penetration and limited easy baskets for your BIG’s. With Flip, you have the teams best one on one player who has the ability to penetrate against almost anyone. However, he needs the ball to be effective and he doesn’t use that penetrating ability to get easy baskets for his teammates. Considering how many mins(24.7) he averaaged, his 2.0 APG is really low for a SG/PG that controls the ball and penetrates as much as he does. Our C-Horford, SG-JJ and PG-Bibby averaged more APG than Flip, and even ALaw averaged 1.6 APG and he avg only 10.2 very inconsistent mins.
If we don’t resign Bibby, and draft a PG, Sund has to make certain Woodson doesn’t use the same old school bullying tactics against him that he used against Salim and Acie. That’s why I suggested we go after the Bulls PG Heinrick because he’s a younger, bigger, quicker, faster version of Bibby, except he plays much, much, much better DEF. He can help the team consistently play uptempo, and he shoots well enough to make us effective playing halfcourt.
Since Sund and/or the SAASG have decided to stay in bed with Woodson for at least one more yr, they need to do everything possible to help him be successful. That means we should go all out to resign Zaza, Chills and Flip. Then they should go all out trade for Heinrich and sign AMcDyess to a FA contract. That would leave us with the following lineup.
PG-KHeinrick
SG-JJohnson
SF-MWilliams
PF-JSmith
C–AHorford
BENCH
C—–ZPachulia
C/PF–AMcDyess
SF/SG-JChildress
SG/PG-RMurray
PG—-ALaw
PF—-OHunter, Charlie V or Draft pick(s)
If the Hawks expect to duplicate their recent success, they’ll have to walk a thin line between Woodson tactics and OFF/DEF schemes and the players that are added to the roster.
bigdave
June 3rd, 2009
3:58 pm
Charlie V. huh Sekou…? interesting…
cp, im big on Sam Young… the boy has a nice game… id have him and Toney D. on my board…
#21=Top50,1stBallot
June 3rd, 2009
4:15 pm
Ken,
You might want to check Hinrich’s contract- the word bohemuth comes to mind (and not in that Rashard “overpaying me adds the missing piece to the puzzle” Lewis good way). Plus his game is not all that similar to Bibby honestly, though he is a solid- if unspectacular- offensive player, and exponentially better defensively (who isn’t).
KevinA
June 3rd, 2009
4:18 pm
Mario, Evans, Flip, Acie, Bibby, Hunter, Gardner, Speedy and two draft picks are sign and trade bait or time to let go. We will also have two draft picks for next year.
Flip and Bibby are good players but do we really want to stay with the same old jump shooting offense. We need a starting PG that can push the ball more effectively and play much better defense.
Flip and Bibby put up a huge volume of shots at a poor shooting percentage. They seem to shoot first instead of looking to pass to the front court first. I will add JJ to this list if we can get equal talent in return. A trade for talent that would drive and play equally as good defense. As posted before all three shoot below .440 in shooting percentage together. We need .475 to go to the next level.
JJ, Marvin, Chills, Josh, Al, ZaZa, Solo, and Morris are the core to keep for next year.
Chills, Josh, Marvin and Al run like the dickens and finish well. We need a PG that can match their energy.
KevinA
June 3rd, 2009
4:21 pm
If we resign ZaZa and Solo I think were fine. Solo has much upside potential. I wish we would play Solo with Al to see how Al does at PF. I would also like to see the experiment of Josh at the three.
Randolph Morris has not had a chance to show what he has. Our need for big’s might be overblown. Maybe they just need playing time.
I don’t see how we can get a better front court for the money.
cp
June 3rd, 2009
4:33 pm
bigdave I have a few guys on my list.. Terrance Williams, Earl Clark, and Sam Young… I think either one of these guys could really help this team..
Daniel please tell me you are playing with the comments you made about CP3. I think the first year he played for the Hornets they won like 20 or 30 more games than they did the previous year. How is he anything like AI? CP3 makes his teammates better. I have yet to hear anyone say that about AI. The Hornets don’t really have that much talent when you look at them but Paul makes that team so much better. I know people say we should get over it but please don’t act like that kid has not made a great impact on that team. Hell at one point last year people thought Chills should have been starting over Marvin. Chris Paul wont ever take his team to a championship but Marvin will? Lmaooooooooo. I’m sorry but people are talking about trading Marvin now while Paul is being mentioned as the best pg in the NBA, hell you even mentioned Marvin as a trading piece but somehow you are trying to act like Paul is not a great player. When Marvin comes in second in MVP voting , hell if he even comes close to making an all star team please let me know because until he does even half of the things Paul has done he will always be remembered as the guy we took instead of Paul. It sucks but it is what it is.
Sekou Smith
June 3rd, 2009
4:35 pm
Charlie V can play the 3 and 4 and off the bench or in a starting role. He’s got a full offensive arsenal and he can score in a bunch of different ways. My bad Melvin, I didn’t know the Charlie V express had already left the station.
For all you people griping about paying Bibby too much, I don’t know about paying for Hinrich over the next few years. Take a look at his contract and tell me that’s money well spent.
I love Brandon Bass, too, but I think he’ll be tougher to get than Charlie V. Plus, his offensive skill set isn’t in the same stratosphere. And the Hawks need another scoring threat off that bench in the worst way.
Let’s see, Flip, Zaza, Childress, Charlie V. and Mo, plus whoever they draft, as a bench crew would look pretty good to me. But we’re just talking hypothetically here.
Tony from Stone Mountain
June 3rd, 2009
4:39 pm
“How can you let the Marvin Williams is not CP3 fiasco die. I mean look at the Hawks, we just got swept by a total of 200 hundred points in the Playoffs, gimme a fucin break.”
Did CP3 play in the 2nd. round?
rms
June 3rd, 2009
4:42 pm
The Hawks will draft a forward with the 19th pick or an 7-foot international player from Portugal!!
rms
June 3rd, 2009
4:43 pm
If CP3 played in the East he would have made it to the second round?
Sekou Smith
June 3rd, 2009
4:45 pm
And I agree 100 percent with what Mark Bradley said about the Hawks needing another star. I also realize how hard it is to pry one away in his prime, and the Hawks need a cat on his ascent or already in his prime, and not a fading star.
The reality is this, you have to look at the return on your investment with players. Any time you can sink rookie deal money into a guy his first few years and end up with a cornerstone like Josh Smith or Al Horford on the other side, it’s a victory. When you have to pay sticker price for a guy (like the Hawks did with Joe Johnson, after his rookie deal was done), you feel it a bit more in your wallet. And you expect bang for your buck when you’re shopping on the free agent and trade market. So you have to be careful how you spend.
There are going to be all sorts of financial constraints on teams in the immediate NBA future, so the team’s that spend wisest are likely to benefit the most (which is actually the way it always works). The Hawks haven’t gone crazy like some teams (New Orleans comes to mind with that foolish deal they gave Peja Stojakovic now coming back to haunt them). The passed on some of big money free agents of the past few cycles (Erick Dampier, Eddy Curry and Sam Dalembert come to mind), saving themselves from gigantic contracts that can cripple a franchise years after the fact.
It’s one of the reasons they’ll have some flexibility in the next two months to do some things to fortify the roster.
JuliusCesaer
June 3rd, 2009
5:07 pm
Listen Tony from Stn. Mtn.: Ill tell you why you can let the mistake of drafting Marvin Williams ahead of CP3 die. This is why. Ok. the hawks struggled like crazy against Miami; just barely beat them. And then got pounded by LaBron and the Cavs. But who is a bigger failure, the Hawks or the Cavs? This is why Labron refused to shake ANYBODYS hand of the Magic because LaBron feels the Cavs are a better team than the Magic and proved it in the regular season. But the regular season doesnt count when the playoffs start. The Cavs went 66-16 during the regular year, best record in the entire league, but still failed in the post-season. So do the Cavs need to start rebuilding from scratch? Look at the Hawks though, they were much improved over last year (10 games better) AND significantly better than in Woodys first season when the Hawks were a mere 13-69, absolutely horrible. Five years later under the general management of Billy Knight, the Hawks went from not making the playoffs, to making the playoffs with a losing record 37-45, to making the playoffs with a great record, 47-35, finishing in fourth place in the entire conference. Would you rather the Hawks were 13-69 or 47-35? Ill take a significant imrpovement. Of course, Billy Knight made a few drafting mistakes, but what GM doesnt make mistakes. Billy Knight always leaves a team in much better shape than when he first took over the helm. Before Knight, the Hawks were worse than 13-69. After Knight, they were 47-35; not bad, its a steady improvement. Hopefully the Hawks will win 50+ games next year, have a banner season and make it to the finals. But I would say the Hawks are closer to making the conference finals or the NBA finals than they are to mediocrity. Just a thought.
Nookah
June 3rd, 2009
5:35 pm
Ken Strick, you the man!!! If we are able to assemble your proposed team, trust me we’ll contend for the Eastern Conference finals next year. I love that team and I’m sold on Charlie V off the bench.
We have to resign Marvin, Zaza and Flip as a priority. McDyess would be an excellent pickup and with this squad we’d add a lot of depth and would be able to relieve JJ of some of his minutes and therefore have him much fresher for the playoffs.
Big Ray, I’d have no issues if we pick Hansbrough if he is the best player on the board when we pick. He is not a flashy player but I know we would get excellent value. He’s the type of player who’d bring the proverbial lunch pail to work every day and would help us significantly on the boards. What he lacks in athletic ability he would make up with technical ability. He knows how to position himself to be able to pull down those rebounds and with a healthy Horford would make a formidable rebounding force.
I hope Speedy can maintain his “health” so we can ship his contract and something else to move up or acquire a good FA. Although Speedy had a very bad time here, no one gets injured dileberately. He just had a bad time here. I wish him all the best and hope he can repay Atlanta by passing whatever medical he may have to undergo to be packaged.
Sekou, I hope you’ll be able to keep us updated with off-season activity of our squad once the dust settles.
Go Hawks!!!