Superman’s return!
Superman has put the entire league on notice with his performance in these playoffs.
HAWKSVILLE - Next time I’ll listen.
In the wake of the Hawks’ being swept out of the Eastern Conference semifinals against Cleveland, people that watch NBA basketball as much and as hard as I do kept warning me that Dwight Howard and the Orlando Magic would end the reign of the King (LeBron James).
No one was more vocal about it than Tracy Johnson (Joe Johnson’s uncle) of Little Rock, Ark. He warned me several times, and he actually started during the Magic-Celtics series, not to put too much stock in Cleveland’s four-game demolition of the Hawks in the Eastern Conference semifinals.
The “matchups” would carry the Magic, he said. And he was right. The Cavaliers never did find an answer for Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu. I’m not sure they made a sincere attempt to find an answer.
Well, there is no answer, at least not a one-man answer, for Howard, who has stolen James’ thunder as the youngest and most promising NBA talent in these playoffs.
Tracy’s warnings went beyond the playoffs, though, extending to the Hawks’ issues in the Southeast Division – if you haven’t noticed already, there’s a big bad bully on the block now in the division and the Eastern Conference and it’s not the King (who remains the most mercurial talent of his generation).
It’s Howard.
Even worse for the Hawks and everyone else, there is no Mickael Pietrus for Howard. Pietrus effectively harassed James long enough on the defensive end to allow the Magic’s other matchup advantages to swing the series. And when given a choice between defending the Magic’s 3-point shooters or double-teaming Howard … the phrase pick your poison doesn’t do it justice.
Now, the rest of the division, the Eastern Conference and perhaps the league (depending on what happens in the NBA Finals) must figure out how to build a team capable of beating Howard’s Magic.
YOU WON’T FIND A SOLUTION FOR HOWARD IN THE NBA DRAFT. No one stacks up physically, shoulder to outlandishly buff shoulder to the former Southwest Atlanta Christian star.
And the measurements from the NBA’s pre-draft combine in Chicago made that abundantly clear. Our friends at DraftExpress (one stop shopping for all things draft) were kind of enough to compile and share this handy chart for our viewing pleasure. To say this draft is light on big bodies would be an extreme understatement.
By my count, there are only 12 players that measured a legitimate 6-9 or taller. Just 12. That’s not exactly a smorgasboard of options for teams in need. The bigger question is where have all the big boys gone?
That shallow pool of bog bodies makes the prospect of locating a quality big man in this draft extremely difficult for teams picking outside of the lottery (teams like the Hawks).
Chasing a big man in the draft can be a dangerous proposition. Exhibit A, Shelden Williams.
Still, I’m hearing rumblings that North Carolina’s Tyler Hansbrough is one of this draft’s risers right now. The Hawks are in need of help along the frontcourt but I was thinking someone bigger than Hansbrough. Still, if they’re on the board at 19 and have Hansbrough rated higher than any of the point guards available …. it’s happened here before folks (Shelden Williams over Brandon Roy ranks up high in the draft gaffe Hall of Fame). You know it as well as I do. NBA executives always tend to value size over anything else, to their own detriment most times.
My two favorite point guards in this draft, North Carolina’s Ty Lawson and Syracuse’s Jonny Flynn, are nearly identical in every department (a shade over 6-foot, a couple ounces over 195 pounds depending on what they ate for breakfast that day). I’m a lot less interested in their combine numbers than I am in what they do when the big lights come on. And both of these guys get it done come game time.
IN ADDITION TO THE DRAFT CHATTER, FREE AGENT AND TRADE TALK IS HEATING UP around the league. That’s always a good thing for us, since the prospect of something that’s virtually impossible always seems to generate a greater response than anything remotely possible.
The Hawks won’t be the only team scouring the NBA landscape for frontcourt help this summer. Apparently the team that vanquished them in the playoffs is in need of a little updgrde up front as well, per my man Bob Finnan of the News Herald in suburban Cleveland.
One player mentioned in Bob’s story that will no doubt be mentioned in many others as the summer drags on is Hawks reserve center Zaza Pachulia.
Every playoff team in need of a depth along the frontline is going to be interested in a player like Zaza, for obvious reasons (he has the size, experienced and ability needed to play a vital role for a contender plus he’s going to be affordable for most teams because he’ll command a salary around the mid-level exception over the course of the next three or four years – similar to the four-year $16 million deal he just finished up with the Hawks).
The Hawks can ill afford to lose a quality big man like Zaza Pachulia in these trying economic times around the NBA.
Pachulia’s an unrestricted free agent, meaning the Hawks will have to compete to keep him. And I’m not sure he isn’t there most crucial free agent they need to retain because of the dearth of quality and affordable bigs on the market.
I know several of the Hawks’ competitors in the Eastern Conference are interested, I’ve spoken to executives from four teams that have brought his name up in our conversations over the past two weeks.
There are other guys in that realm with higher profiles (guys like Rasheed Wallace, Antonio McDyess, Chris Wilcox, Joe Smith and others) that are a bit of a risk compared to Pachulia because they’re older and perhaps will command a bit more money (in the case of Wallace).
I thought Pachulia was a monster bargain when the Hawks snagged him initially. The expectations were raised after his first season with the team, when he was thrust into a starting role and flourished after Jason Collier’s sudden and tragic death. Pachulia for anything near the same price right now is an equally monstrous bargain.
I know everyone is always interested in upgrading. But sometimes it’s not nearly as easy you might think to get a better bang for your buck. And whatever you think of Pachulia, he’s a good bargain for a player with his credentials.
BACK TO THE DRAFT BUZZ, the one player’s name that keeps coming up in all the conversations I’m having with people is Jrue Holiday. The UCLA point guard, who has yet to cement his draft situation by hiring an agent, is following in the footsteps for former Bruin and Oklahoma City standout Russell Westbrook.
Both players played alongside a pretty good point guard in his own right (Darren Collison) and both played in the ultra-structured system of Bruins coach Ben Howland, so like Westbrook, there’s likely a lot more to Holiday’s game that we haven’t seen yet.
Holiday’s work at the pre-draft camp, coupled with his fantastic size (6-4 and change and a solid 200 pounds) and tremendous ceiling (he’s just 18) has done wonders for his stock with NBA types. If he decides to stay in the draft, he’s all but worked his way out of the Hawks’ range at 19.
Holiday's stock is on the rise after impressive showings in workouts and at the Chicago pre-draft camp.
While the buzz about Holiday intensifies, the buzz about fellow California teenage point guard Brandon Jennings appears headed in the opposite direction. A less then stellar showing in Italy this past season didn’t help the preps-to-Europe trailblazer’s cause, though I can’t imagine what anyone expected of him making that kind of transition (I’ll be curious to see if their are similar, oversized expectations placed on Ricky Rubio if his first year in the NBA is next season).
Jennings reportedly spurned an offer to work out at the Reebok Eurobcamp (their version of the pre-draft camp), sending NBA executives scurrying to find answers as to why he would pass up an opportunity to “compete” in front of the assembled brass. But what more do you need to see from Jennings to make an adequate assessment of his game?
If you need more on the draft crop, though, check out the athleticism test results from the pre-draft camp (courtesy of our friends at nbadraft.net, yet another fabulous site devoted to all things draft).
SPEAKING OF EXPECTATIONS GONE AWRY, I CANNOT BELIEVE FOLKS ARE STILL groaning about the Marvin Williams-is-not-Chris-Paul madness.
I know it hurts for some of us to do this, even after all these years, but it really is time to let go. Just throw darts at your Billy Knight poster for the rest of your life. But let it go.
And for the record, Marvin wasn’t the No. 1 pick in that 2005 draft. That honor belonged to Milwaukee’s Andrew Bogut, who has yet to distinguish himself as anything other than a wanna-be-dominant NBA big man (I’d argue that Toronto’s Andrea Bargnani is looking like a better pick these days).
Marvin’s first four years have been respectable and far from bust material (anyone seen Darko Milicic in a uniform lately? Anyone. Anyone. Bueller?).
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552 comments Add your comment
Ariose
June 8th, 2009
4:05 pm
“Australian Patrick Mills was absolutely the star of the evening’s all-star game, posting an impressive 30 point performance on 8/18 shooting from the field and 12/13 from the line. Mills handled the ball on a string all game long, showing terrific quickness keeping his man off balance, and making an absolute living in the mid-range area with his deadly pull-up jumper. His ability to utilize strong hesitation moves makes him extremely difficult to stay in front of, and he did a good job not settling for tough shots from beyond the arc today, getting to the line repeatedly. He clearly thrives in up-tempo settings such as the one seen in today’s all-star game, which came in stark contrast to his morning performance, where he seemed to over-dribble somewhat while trying to create in the half-court.”
Link:
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Reebok-Eurocamp-Day-Two-3251/
Ken Strickland
June 8th, 2009
4:19 pm
Trade PF JSmith to Philly for C SDalembert, and a and 2nd rd pick. In 24.8mins Dalembert averaged 8.5 RPG, 1.78 BPG and 6.04PPG while in 35.1mins JSmith averaged 7.2RPG, 1.60BPG and 15.6PPG. Then we use those Picks and expiring contracts to trade for PG KHinrick. Remember, in the 07-08 season, SDalembert played 33.1mins and averaged a double double, 10.4RPG, 2.34BPG and 10.5PPG.
That would leave us with a starting lineup of:
PG-KHinrick
SG-JJohnson
SF-MWilliams
PF-AHorford
C–SDalembert
BENCH
SF/SG-JChildress
PG—-ALaw
SG/PG-FMurray
PF—-OHunter
C/PF–SJones
C/PF–ZPachulia or FA
SF/SG-MEvans
This would be a strong starting lineup defensively, at all positions, and very strong rebounding wise. It would also meet the Woody factor, which is a lot more important than some of you seem to think. Although this lineup would lose some scoring with the loss of MBibby and JSmith, it would more than make it up DEF by reducing the PPG allowed.
Melvin
June 8th, 2009
4:31 pm
Ken,
It been reported that Philly couldn’t give Dalembert away. Now you propose we trade him for our leader in points, rebs, and steals during the playoffs???
kwooden1
June 8th, 2009
4:31 pm
Ken you forgot about E. Brand, Philly has a lot of money tied up in him.
Astro Joe
June 8th, 2009
4:42 pm
If Dalembert does get traded, he will likely have a very, very good season. I think he has a massive chip on his shoulders. If nothing else, dude will likely have 10 blocks everytime he plays Philly. He’ll probably end up with the Spurs and everyone will talk about how they resurrected his career. Teams like the Spurs always seem to know the right time to acquire a player (see Roger Mason).
glw
June 8th, 2009
4:47 pm
Hoops,
I will try to answer your question of Niremetal, you can make trades as long as the salaries are relatively close, not sure what the %…. maybe 125% plus 100,000 or something like that, as long as you have cap space, you can trade no matter if salaries match or not. Technically the Hawks are over to cap. so to do that, I think the Hawks would have to renounce rights to free agents to clear space to compensate for the difference in the salary that they received. For instance, if the Hawks traded Josh Smith who makes a little over 10 million, if the Hawks wanted to take back a player that made 15 million, they would have to clear cap space by renouncing players and getting under the cap by say roughly 3 million or so, to be within the ratio of 125%.
Ken Strickland,
I am a big Josh Smith fan, but I know its a business and am all for making the team better. Sure a move like that would make us bigger, and I can see a reason for justifying the Hawks making such a move, but why would Philly want to make that deal? Are you telling me they are willing to trade their one and only true center for Josh? They already owe big money to Elton Brand who plays the same position as Josh, so I dont see that deal happening.
newkid
June 8th, 2009
5:00 pm
Message to Mr. Sund. While not your doing, here’s a sampling of what we the fans have to stomach as we look back at some of the Hawks’ draft decisions over the past recent years (no, I’m not going to mention Marvin Williams again). We selected Salim when we could have selected Brandon Bass, Ronny Turiaf, Monta Ellis, Lou Williams, Amir Johnson, Marcin Gortat, Andray Blatche, or Von Wafer; we selected Shelden Williams when we could have selected Brandon Roy, Rudy Gay, Ronnie Brewer, Jordan Farmar, Sergio Rodriguez, or Rajon Rondo; we selected AC Law when we could have selected Thad Young, Al Thornton, Rodney Stuckey, Rudy Fernandez, Aaron Brooks, or Daequan Cook. Mr. Sund, DON’T SCREW UP.
I.MUS WRITE- INTERNATIONAL MAN OF MYSTERY
June 8th, 2009
5:04 pm
Melvin -i wuz thinking the same thing, If we were to trade Josh to Philli….. Thad young better be apart of the package
bigdave
June 8th, 2009
5:45 pm
YES AND I REPEAT… JOE JOHNSON IS THE 3rd BEST 2 GUARD IN THE NBA…!
bigdave
June 8th, 2009
5:50 pm
please… Manu “Im Going Left Every Time ” Ginobili … give me a break…
he’ll be hard pressed finding that game again on that iffy left ankle…
Joe Johnson sir… BUILD AROUND THIS GUY..
ILL-logical
June 8th, 2009
6:08 pm
Two quick comments about last night’s game: 1) JVK outcoached Big Chief Triangle last night and 2) no matter how the serise unfolds, the Lakers are an awesome collection of talent.They can bring height,heft,speed,experience and of course talent in a variety of packages and they are not an old team outside of Derrick Fisher.
What can the Hawks do to be competitive with the likes of LA ,Orlando or Cleveland? Keep as much of their primary asset-chemistry- together. We may end up with the dystopian fantasy of Mr. Sund and Woodson,ie the 2009-10 version of the 2004 Pistons but let it be with as much of the current roster as feasible.
But we might end up with Flip being Chauncy(it will cost a little more but not as much as Bibby); Marvin as Rip ; Josh as Tayshun; Al as the good “Sheed(few 3’s ,more D)and a stronger Solo as Ben wallace. With Acie; Othello Hunter and a FA frontcourt player rounding out the roster.
Not pretty but it may be all we can afford both in terms of $ and the fact that what FA or for that matter assistants would want to step into this situation where the coach/gm are on a one year deal?
niremetal
June 8th, 2009
6:09 pm
Sautee,
No time to argue, man. You’re taking my words out of context and I’m sick of this back-and-forth BS where you go find a post I made a few days ago, seize on one word, and then try to show me up for it. Too much to do to deal with this. I never said a player never could be “overpaid.” I said that pay vs. production reasoning doesn’t tell the whole the story unless you look at the broader picture, and taking the player’s pay and production as a snapshot out of context of the NBA salary structure makes no sense. Sometimes I said “pay vs. production” reasoning or something to that effect as shorthand because otherwise my posts would be 2534534 words long.
If you want to pick apart a single word or set up straw men with my arguments, be my guest. But my patience is up. I don’t have time for this BS anymore. Engage my arguments. Don’t make caricatures of them and then expect me to respond.
But seriously.
Big Ray
June 8th, 2009
6:50 pm
Astro Joe,
Yes, spin doctors indeed, lol! Well thanks for spinning the record back around in the other direction, the music had stalled for a moment, and we were beginning to think it was a theme in variations (without the variations), instead of a waltz. You know, kind of like Woody’s offense.
True, we just saw coaches doing something that we’ve yelled at Woody about for a long time. Tell ya what, let’s compare notes again when the following have come to pass:
1)Woody is coaching this time in the NBA Finals. ‘Nuff said.
2)Our team has the capability of going 9 or 10 deep EFFECTIVELY, and Woody is the coach.
3)When we’ve got a starter that the opposing team simply cannot handle (and he’s scoring with ease), Woody actually runs plays for him in the second half (instead of going away from him almost entirely and reverting back to the usual JJ/Bibby shooting competition).
4)Woody runs plays for guys who can shoot where he has them shooting, instead of guys who can’t shoot from that spot (and then yelling at them for doing what he told them to do).
5)This one is so good, I just had to say it again: Woody is coaching the Hawks in the NBA Finals. If we’re playing in the NBA Finals with Woody as the coach, a little criticism still applies to any and all who are performing, but I can’t see anybody having a right to say much negative about him AT ALL.
Sound hypocritical? Okay. Sound spin-doctorish? I can go for that. Hey, if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em. And that’s what you just did, lol!
The Truth
June 8th, 2009
6:52 pm
Niremetal
Yes there were some improvements to the Magic’s defense relative to the 1st game which I acknowledged favorably via coaching adjustments. This is perhaps our common ground. But overall taking both games into account, I have to side with Stan Van Gundy about his team performance as I indicated. Regarding Lee’s missed shot; it is what it is, he missed. In the grandest of stage as the NBA finals, those are the plays that separate the champions from the pretenders. Yes you argue that it was a difficult shot but it was certainly doable. But the bottom line is that he missed and they lost and now down 0-2. However, I do marvel at the coach for drawing that play up. I wish Woody had that kind of coaching IQ. If he was in that situation, we all know what play he would have called: ISO JOE WITH 3 DEFENDERS ON HIM. No element of surprise. We would have gotten what we expected, THE SAME OLD, SAME OLD.
O'brien
June 8th, 2009
7:35 pm
Good point Ray. If Woody gets the Hawks to the NBA finals, then a lot of us will cut him some slack, because he will have earned it.
Because the Hawks may not have enough salary cap space, I agree that they should try and sign other team’s free agents before signing ours. Sign Charlie V or Brandon Bass before resigning Zaza. And sign a PG not named Bibby (I say Jarrett Jack, but I’m okay with Sessions too). T
Ken Strickland
June 8th, 2009
7:39 pm
MELVIN-I didn’t specify when the trade should take place. If we can make it happen during the playoffs, then let it happen.
KWOODEN-I didn’t forget EBrand. What I forgot was ZPachulia. I had in my mind a sign and trade with he and JSmith, since he wants another chance to start again. What we get in return, in addition to Dalembert, would be negotiable.
GLW-Like I said to KWOODEN, I forgot to include ZPachulia in the mix. Also, wtih the extreme chemistry issues EBrand created for Philly, they might want to reconsider their decision to take him over Josh. Another chance to get Josh might make them consider sending EBrand packing. This team will never get to the next level as long as the SAASG keeps forcing HC MWoodson to use players drafted by former GM BKnight, that don’t fit his OFF/DEF system. Since the SAASG has obviously provided Woodson with unwavering support, they owe it to him to get the type of players that meet with his approval and fits his OFF/DEF systems.
I believe the lineup I persented will meet with Woodson’s approval and do a better job of excuting his flawed OFF/DEF systems. I don’t dislike his approach to being a HC enough to want him to fail, because that would mean the team also fails. If we can get to the next level with him as HC, I’d be happy.
Melvin
June 8th, 2009
7:45 pm
Look at what Marty Blake (Mr.NBA Scout himself) had to say about Acie…
“With point guards it’s especially hard,” says Blake. “A lot of times they’re not playing point guard in high school or college, they’re playing the two. If they go to a quality college and see Division I talent every night, they have a better shot at making it in the NBA. But sometimes, even with a senior it’s hard to tell about the point position. I liked Acie Law quite a bit, but for whatever reason – he’s had injuries and so forth – he hasn’t made it. It will be interesting to see what the Hawks do with their pick. They’ve got two years invested in Law, so maybe they give him one more. He hasn’t had a great deal of gametime experience, and you have to have that experience to gain confidence and be effective.”
glw
June 8th, 2009
8:10 pm
Ken Strickland,
Well that deal does make more sense, but I still doubt Philly goes for it. But I agree with you, I was shocked when they threw money at Brand. I think he does mess up their chemistry and Josh Smith would have been a better fit for them, oh well, thats their loss.
I agree with you and “Woody’s flawed system, Woodson reminds me of an old school coach set in his ways and the best solution is probably finding players that are adapt at his system. For Woodys system to work aka known as the “Joe and Bibby Show”, his best bet is to surround them with shooters. Under that theory, its best to add a frontcourt player that can shoot, either a Rasheed Wallace/Charlie V type. And a 2nd post players must be developed, Sheed has an inside out game, but like has previously been discussed he might be out of the price range. Barring a trade, the next best alternative is to hope that Horford or Smoove develop a low post game, not sure I see that happening as fast as we would like.
Astro Joe
June 8th, 2009
8:39 pm
Ray, if your point is that coaches in the NBA Finals are better than coaches not in the NBA Finals, I agree. But that would eliminate maybe 500 posts here, now wouldn;t it? And of course, the logic doesn;t work the same way for some. Is Woody a better coach than LB? Or D’Antoni? How about those coaches who failed to make it in the second round, like MacMillan?
Hey, I’m all for saying that the most recent performance is the deciding factor. And I am comfortable with Woody being one of the 8 top coaches in the league this year. I’m all on board. No debate here.
Ariose
June 8th, 2009
8:45 pm
Draft Hansbrough, Sign Sheed, Sign Green, Sign Anthony Parker, Trade speedy+Cash+Randolph(if necessary) to move up higher for our second draft Pick and Draft Pactick Mills. Resign Bibby/Flip(3 year contract….). Also If you can’t get Sheed, the sign Brandon Bass and trader one of our Bigs later for a Bigger Center or keep them all and pray to God that we get Lucky in the 2010 NBA Draft.
Since this is my little concoction and i’m the Imaginary GM here, finances arent’t an Issue.
Larry O’Brien contenders for sure…..yup
Sautee
June 8th, 2009
8:46 pm
Nire,
Geez, I hope THIS is in context.
First off, I WAS engaging your argument. If you can’t see that then open your eyes a little wider.
Your words: “I never said a player never could be “overpaid.” I said that pay vs. production reasoning doesn’t tell the whole the story unless you look at the broader picture, and taking the player’s pay and production as a snapshot out of context of the NBA salary structure makes no sense. Sometimes I said “pay vs. production” reasoning or something to that effect as shorthand because otherwise my posts would be 2534534 words long.”
Nire, never did I ever accuse you of saying “one could never be overpaid“. Go back and read my post. What I asked is how you came to ascertain “overpaid” as a value in any particular player, in light of your statement that “I don’t believe ANY salary-based reasoning is a good way to compare players.”
You act like I really didn’t care, but only wanted to play “gotcha”. You’re DEAD WRONG, about that Matt. DEAD WRONG. Like Ray, I push you to get a good argument. But to act like I’m not really interested in your reply, except to belittle you misses the ENTIRE point. And is insulting, as well.
I thought that I was asking a valid question, given that your long post on pay vs. production was in the context of discussing the stats I threw out. Your “statement” went to the trouble of capitalizing the word “any” so I was left wondering how you EVER could judge whether any player merited their salary by those standards. After the diatribe you gave, I think it’s a totally valid question that would help me understand “HOW” you judge overpayment without using “salary based reasoning”. It seemed like a conundrum to me.
I also NEVER said that pay vs. production told the entire story, but you react as if I said exactly that. And you KNEW that was a straw man argument when you said it, but you turn and infer that I’m the one using straw.
Can you explain what I took out of context? Didn’t think I did, but I can be convinced.
You were obviously offended by my asking, so either I struck a nerve, or you’re just overtired and at a vulnerable place studying so many hours for the Bar exam (when is it anyway?). It was not my intent to offend. I think you mistook my “stick poking” style as an affront.
Poke with a stick, yes. (Just like Astro Joe did to me earlier today). Offend, no. At least not with any intent. What was that term you used, mens rea?
But don’t run away when we have good stuff to discuss.
Ariose
June 8th, 2009
8:46 pm
Also, then Give Woody until the All-Star break. If he STILL sucks at coaching, then fire him and bring in the Litte General pronto.
Ariose
June 8th, 2009
8:48 pm
Sign and Trade our right to Chills, Andersen, and Ankyol…..we’re never gonne see these guys in a Hawks uniform so we might as well trade em.
Astro Joe
June 8th, 2009
9:04 pm
newkid, sounds like you believe in the best player available approach to the draft, regardless of position need.
Ariose, why Avery Johnson? Starting with game 3 of The Finals against Miami, tell me why he would be the best of all the available coaches out there.
Melvin
June 8th, 2009
9:05 pm
I wonder if we could swing a deal to get Washington 5th pick if possible.
Ariose,
Checkout the report on your boy Patty Mills….
http://www.nbadraft.net/node/6571
niremetal
June 8th, 2009
9:56 pm
Sautee,
I admit that I probably took some bar-related frustration out on you. The exam is July 28-29, so I have a long ways to go. I guess what bugged me more is that you basically demanded a reply by re-posting your earlier question, and I didn’t appreciate being put in the position where I felt like I needed to either respond or risk looking like I was ducking a question. I know that wasn’t your attention, but that’s the position I felt it put me in.
Now for the context. The “salary-based reasoning” was supposed to be shorthand for “production-vs-salary based reasoning” or something to that effect. The “overpaid” comment was from a running conversation on why we wouldn’t be able to get Hinrich for a bag of peanuts (a part of the context that WAS important that you left out). The reason is simple – GMs are willing to pay a lot more to get quality PGs (and centers) than they are to get players at any other position on the floor.
I think that pretty much everyone will agree that there IS a point past which a player can be considered “overpaid” pretty much beyond argument. The most obvious are guys like Steve Francis, Raef LaFrentz, and Eddy Curry who pull down 10-figure salaries but don’t play a single game (in those cases, they barely have seen the floor for over two years). And a disproportionate number of those clearly overpaid players (as well as arguably overpaid players) ARE either PGs or centers, simply because the demand for their services greatly outstrips the supply. Teams are willing to roll the dice that an oft-injured player will stay healthy (like Tinsley or Curry or Speedy), or that a guy who turned in one good year (like Ike Austin) or even one good playoff game and half a good season (like Daniel Gibson) will maintain or improve, or that an underachieving player will put it all together (like Curry or Tyson Chandler), or that a borderline starter on a mediocre team will make the leap to solid starter on a good team (like LaFrentz or Ridnour) when that player is a big man or a point guard, or that a player clearly on the downswing of his career will maintain his production (Rod Strickland is the example I can think of, although I’m sure there are more recent ones).
That was all reasoning to support a broader, in-context point – that we shouldn’t fool ourselves into thinking that we will be the only one interested in the services of Hinrich. I guarantee that some team will be willing to pony up more appealing assets for Hinrich than the expiring contracts of two players who would probably never see the floor for Chicago. The mere fact that he’s a serviceable point guard means that there will probably be a few teams willing to overlook his price tag and less-than-All-Star pedigree and give up significant assets to get him there, hoping that he’ll become the next Steve Nash.
niremetal
June 8th, 2009
9:59 pm
And now I do have to run away…the work has backed up on me like you wouldn’t believe.
BraveFan73
June 8th, 2009
10:05 pm
The Hawks have plenty of issues to address. We have to decide if our future is tied to Mike Bibby. My vote is to push to sign a point guard (perhaps a couple of PGs) first and foremost. Of course, we must resign Zaza Pachulia. That is obvious. I believe that it is going to be much more challenging than we all think.
I hear that Jarrett Jack is an unrestricted free agent. If that is the case, we must make a play for him. He brings a toughness that our team really lacks. If we were able to snag Jack, we have a guy who can play both guard positions and gives us depth. You mentioned Marvin Williams and Sheldon Williams as Billy Knight busts. How about Mr. Bust, Acie Law. I know that there were some AJC cheerleaders in his corner. This guy is not 11th pick material. Period!
Another talented PG on the board is Ramon Sessions, who was amazing for the Bucks during the second half of the season. If we are in a position to get Sessions and Jack, we can move on without Bibby, especially if we can solidify Flip Saunders. That would give us Jack (combo guard), Saunders (combo guard), and Sessions (point guard) in the backcourt with Joe Johnson.
I would also take Andre Miller or Jason Kidd at PG with Joe Johnson.
As for posts, I would be giddy for Charlie Villanueva. I would also be giddy Atlanta became aggressors and jumped into the Al Jeffereson-Stakes. Jefferson was one of the top 3 or 4 centers in the NBA prior to his injury. He was the lynchpin in the Kevin Garnett to Boston deal with the Minnesota Timberwolves. After his injury, Kevin Love played well. Jefferson is high value. However, Minnesota may not match a deal. Who would have thought that Joe Johnson would have come to Atlanta from Phoenix? He was a restricted free agent. We need to take a long look at Jefferson.
Melvin
June 8th, 2009
10:18 pm
Bravesfan73,
Flip Saunders is coach….lmao… And AL Jefferson is not a free agent. He signed a 5 year contract with the Wolves last summer..
newkid
June 8th, 2009
10:20 pm
Joe, I’m not smart enough to have worked out a system of strongly held beliefs regarding drafting talent over need or need over talent. What I do know is despite having had numerous opportunities over the past several years, we’ve far too often failed miserably – when excellent talent was available – in building a very deep and skilled side. Was the failure because we drafted need over talent? Not sure, but I’m sure the evidence clearly indicates that we’ve screwed up (for whatever the reasons) far too often. The only other thing I’m sure of tonight is I didn’t get a single nibble on my line while tooling around on the water for the past 3 hours, but got plenty skeeter bites.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 8th, 2009
11:18 pm
We all know Sekou’s upcoming blog:
“Solomon Jones is looking ripped as hell. Has added 20 pounds of pure muscle and is ready for the Hawks to resign him.”
“Scouts are saying that Smoove is looking stronger than ever and may be the MVP next year”
“Marvin is working on his African Studies Degree and has added 30 pounds of muscle
KevinA
June 9th, 2009
12:35 am
Niremetel, your 6.32 post was one of the best I’ve seen
Ariose
June 9th, 2009
2:19 am
Melvin, that happend about two weeks ago. The one I posted just happend two days ago at the Reebok Eurocap that showcases all of the European/overseas talent trying to get drafted, and since Mills played overseas professionally, he was invited…..and he owned.
Astro Joe, Well then who do you suggest? Paul Silas? Sam Mitchell? Personally I would love for us to Hire Marc Jackson, but thats just me. Rightt now AJ has one of the highest all-time winning percentages for regular season play as a coach. I just think Sund would play it safe if he let Woody go. Besides, playing it safe is something the Hawks haven’t done a lot of in the past decade, especially around June 27th. Does sund really want to take the heat for not putting a highly qualified Coach in charge? I think he’s had enough after the Chills debacle. That was good for him lol. It let him know that his mistakes will be seen by ALL hehehehe…..
Big Ray
June 9th, 2009
6:48 am
Astro Joe,
That was pretty much the premise, although I wanted to put emphasis on the idea of Woody coaching us in the Finals. Again, if he’s doing that, the only complaint you really SHOULD be hearing from detractors such as myself (yes, I can admit my issues
) should be, “Hey, can somebody get me a Placker or a toothpick? I can’t get this crow out of my teeth. I’ve got so much of it stuck in here, my mouth looks like a damn feather duster.” ….hee hee hee….
And you’re right, the logic doesn’t work for all coaches, when saying that coaches in the Finals are better than those who are not. Good observation. Of course, I also realize that logic in general can be, and often is undermined by some sort of exception at some point.
Ed
June 9th, 2009
7:03 am
First the hawks can start by getting front line help and a 20plus scorer a night guy Chris Bosh, more size in the back court Anthony Parker he got some years on his legs but he is 6′7 ball handler defender. Trade Josh Smith and Acie Law and a player to be named. Reason Bosh will leave Tronto so after next season roll the dice trade for him give hime a taste of playoff with next year hawk team and and the salary he deserve. Then look at our roster Starters
PG- Anthony Parker
SG- Joe Johnson
SF- Marvin William
SF- Chris Bosh
C- AL Halford
Bench
Bibby
flip
zaza
Melvin
June 9th, 2009
9:40 am
I have seen the campaign to trade Josh for Bosh numerous times on here but I can’t understand why the Raptors would go for that deal. Reason being, Josh and A.Bargainin(misp) are both finesse players. At least Bosh, would bang in the paint and grab double digits rebounds but Bargainin/Josh front court would be too weak to defend opposing teams frontcourts in my veiw. I would think the Raps would seek more of a banger (Horford type) to play alongside Bargainin. These are just my thoughts…
Astro Joe
June 9th, 2009
9:48 am
Ray, I’m glad we agree that the logic doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny. No way is SVG a better coach than Greg Popovich.
Ariose, I tend to put my coaching candidates in categories since there are obviously different approaches to hiring a coach. In my “Brand Name” bucket, I like Doug Collins and Mike Fratello. My “Re-Tread” group has been reduced to Paul Westphal (it used to include Flip Saunders and Eddie Jordan. I don’t view Mo Cheeks, Terry Porter or Sam Mitchell as upgrades over Woody). My “Out-of-the-Box” list includes Mark Jackson and Bill Laimbeer. And finally, the assistants list has Keith Smart and Brian Shaw (it used to include Alvin Gentry).
If I had to choose, I would call Doug Collins first and then Keith Smart would get the next interview. Smart has been working alongside Don Nelson for several years and should be able to relate well with the modern player while installing a player-friendly offense that would fit with our nucleus. But Avery Johnson would likely be my 10th choice for the Hawks. No thank you.
Big Ray
June 9th, 2009
10:05 am
Although I’ve made jokes about it, I’d have to lean towards the side of NOT hiring Avery Johnson. The guy is clearly abrasive (though anybody might be when coaching a head-case team like the Mavs). And I can’t prove he’s a bad coach, but I also can’t prove he’s a bonafide good one, either.
Sautee
June 9th, 2009
10:19 am
Niremetal,
I totally agree on your point about Hinrich. That was never an issue for me and forgive me if quoting a portion of that response to Melvin clouded the issue.
However…………..
“The “overpaid” comment was from a running conversation on why we wouldn’t be able to get Hinrich for a bag of peanuts (a part of the context that WAS important that you left out). The reason is simple – GMs are willing to pay a lot more to get quality PGs (and centers) than they are to get players at any other position on the floor.”
And that’s a good point too. Those 2 positions indeed cause GMs to reach.
Nire, the reason I didn’t think I was quoting you out of context is this: I was not asking you to explain WHY those players were overpaid in your eyes, but HOW you reached that conclusion if indeed you thought “ANY salary-based reasoning” was a poor way to compare players.
Nire, it’s semantics, and once again you failed to see what I was asking. There is NO WAY that any of us can come to a conclusion that a player is overpaid, underpaid, paid exactly right, etc. without using SOME part of our brains that draws on pay vs. production. We’re talking about something that takes place in the Marketplace. Even in your case of Curry or LaFrentz, there’s STILL the fact that they were paid millions (pay) and sat (production). See what I mean? You said we can all agree about that. Yes, but I was speaking of HOW we came to agree…that is…. what line of reasoning did we follow to GET to that conclusion. And to do THAT we must have used SOME form of “salary based reasoning” !!!
Got it?
“The “salary-based reasoning” was supposed to be shorthand for “production-vs-salary based reasoning” or something to that effect.”
OK, Never unclear on that one. And that was exactly how I used those terms.
I thought you made good points as it applied to the “JJ vs. the field” angle. As I said, I never thought that I was presenting a “Big Picture”,and said so off the top, but I found my efforts instructive, and I DO think awareness of the COST and REWARD of any given contract is a responsibility of management.
MannyT
June 9th, 2009
10:30 am
Ed, I think Anthony Parker is an unrestricted free agent, so you cannot trade for him. He might make an excellent guy to play PG for the Hawks as a stop gap for a year or two. He did well in that role for the Raptors this when Calderon was out.
As for matchups, you can play him with Flip and cross the D (i.e. let Flip guard the 1 and Parker guard the 2). When he plays with Joe, the size at PG at least makes it more difficult for the smaller, quicker guards to see around him in the half court…and it makes the switching D work better.
At this point, he could replace Claxton on the bench once he’s traded, but you get more use.
BWAF
O'brien
June 9th, 2009
10:35 am
Ariose, I like Patty Mills too. I saw how he played in the Olympics against the US. However, if the Hawks draft Mills, I hope they have a plan in place to move Acie. If I am Sund, I would sign Jack/Sessions to be our starter, resign Flip, and use Acie/Mills/whichever PG we draft as our 3rd PG.
Ken Strickland
June 9th, 2009
11:43 am
GLW-the more I think about it the more I realize the trade I suggested isn’t the best solution for the Hawks or Philly. The trade that would offer the best solution for both teams would be trading JSmith to Philly for EBrand. EBrand is just as good a rebounder and shot blocker as JSmith, and he’s a much much more efficient and skilled inside scorer and midrange jumpshooter.
His inside scoring effeciency would command double teams that would make JJ much more effective. JJ would actually be able to go 1 on 1 instead of 1 on 2 or 3, like in the past. EBrand would also allow us to develop an OFF indentify, since every team would know it had to stop him in the post. With he and JJ Mr inside and Mr outside, teams would have to pick their poison.
Adding PG KHinrick wouldn’t hurt us offensively and he would definitely make us much better overall defensively. Adding PF EBrand wouldn’t hurt us defensively and he would definitely make us much more effecient and better overall offensively. Hinrick and Brand would make Woodson’s limited OFF/DEF much more effective, as well as eliminate some of the problems he has as a HC. Keep in mind, Hinrink is just a suggestion, because any experienced PG that can shoot and play DEF would do.
PG-KHinrick
SG-JJohnson
SF-MWilliams
PF-EBrand
C–AHorford
BENCH
ZPachulia
JChildress
TGardner or MWest
ALaw
OHunter
FA signee or draftee
Brand’s salary is $13.8M and JSmith’s is $10M. Throw in the $2.5M and $797.6K salaries of MEvans and RMorris and all that’s left is to make it happen. With Bibby’s 15M, Speedy’s 5.76M and SJones’(I don’t see him resigning to endure more of Woodsons BS) $797.5K coming off the books, we’d have over $21M to work with after trading for EBrand. With that kind of money, we could certainly afford to get a quality PG and resign MWilliams, ZPachulia and RMurray.
Ariose
June 9th, 2009
12:00 pm
Astro Joe/Ray, I know. I’ve heard all the rumors too about him being an overbearing “Control Freak”. He’s defenetly not my first choice, But I defenetly think we have a PG problem so binginc in a Marc Jackson or some other former PG would be great.
I also think Tom Thibideau deserves some consideration. His defensive scheme is awsome. Don’t know about his offesnse though.
O’Brien, me too. I just wsnt the situation resolved. Mike Bibby is an older guard, and he certailny isn’t without his flaws. If we stick with him, it doesn’t change the fact that we still need one or two “Point Guards of the future” who CAN defend, shoot and also push the tempo.
We need to play these guys. Especially Acie. If he isn’t geting time by december then he and his Agent need to DEMEAND A TRADE in order to save face. Like what JJ Redick did a few years ago. It lets the Executives around the leauge know that you’ve still got tons of potential, you’re healthy, and you’re not being utilized and you’re NOT happy abut it. This is good because teams are ALWAYS looking to upgrade around the trade deadline,it also saves Acies Career. B/C look what happend to Salim. Hejust played his contract out and teams forgot he even existied. By demanding a trade it puts you on other teams Radar, and if forces the organization to either play you or trade you.
It worked out well for JJ. He’s getting minutes in the NBA Finals. If he hadn’t spoken up he’s STILL be at the end of the bench collecting splinters. I’m a Hawks fan first, but I can’t stand to see talented players suffer like that b/c they aren’t even given a chance. Honestly, I beleive that Acie is better than Jack/Sessions, and if we sign those guys and Woody doesn’t trust them either, we’ll be in this smae predicament this time next year.
A Tribe Called Quest
June 9th, 2009
1:01 pm
We all know Sekou’s upcoming blog:
“Solomon Jones is looking ripped as hell. Has added 20 pounds of pure muscle and is ready for the Hawks to resign him.”
“Scouts are saying that Smoove is looking stronger than ever and may be the MVP next year”
“Marvin is working on his African Studies Degree and has added 30 pounds of muscle
terrell barron
June 9th, 2009
1:04 pm
Sekou, I’m tire of looking at D Howard on the Hawks page. How bout a new blog, why dontcha?
terrell barron
June 9th, 2009
1:19 pm
Ken, if we trade Josh Smith to Philly, they’ll probably come into Philips and run our asses into the ground. And I dont if Brand is the guy that I would move Smith for. If we’re going to move him, I think we can do better, Imo. His health is also a concern of mine. I’d rather move him for a Center like Biedreins, Kaman, or Camby, to play alongside Horford, not a pf to play alongside another similar pf.
Big Ray
June 9th, 2009
1:33 pm
Ariose,
Like you, I want the pg situation resolved. It’s stayed unresolved and stop-gapped for years now. The first opportunity to do something about it is in the draft. After that, it’s the bottomless pit known as free agency.
Big Ray
June 9th, 2009
1:36 pm
Terrell,
I feel like a team can get away with two power forwards, as long as they play well together and can do what needs to be done. Hell, that’s what we’ve been doing with Josh and Al any damn how.
Whether or not Brand is the right guy to pair with Horford is the question. I don’t have an answer, and I could be leaning toward your point of view based solely on health problems. Otherwise, you’re looking at an all-star level PF who is a sure 20 and 10 guy. People are fine with guys like Amare Stoudamire and Chris Bosh. They’re PFs, too…
Big Ray
June 9th, 2009
1:37 pm
Terrell,
I agree without a doubt with one thing: we trade Josh Smith to Philly, and they WILL run us silly….
terrell barron
June 9th, 2009
1:45 pm
I’d take Bosh over Brand in a heartbeat. Bosh could open up lanes for Big Al, with his range. He could also take a lot of pressure off of JJ, being an All-Star and all. And his post game is just as good or may be even better than Brands is already. Not to mention, he played at Tech, and he also gets the superstar treatment from the refs. lol!