Wanted: Role Players!
Frontcourt help like Charlie Villanueva could make a huge difference for the Hawks in the future.
HAWKSVILLE – I know that the NBA hype machine would have you believe that the NBA playoffs is basically a test of wills between Kobe Bryant and LeBron James.
If you let the networks tell it, we’re all just bearing witness to the crowning of the king or the validation of KB24’s reign as the heir to his Airness.
Count Magic superstar center and Atlanta native Dwight Howard among those who have heard just about enough. And the AJC’s own Jeff Schultz isn’t far behind Howard in the enough is enough line.
The only problem with all the Kobe/LeBron fuss is that arguably the two most critical guys on the floor thus far in these outstanding Eastern and Western Conference finals have been Lakers’ swingman Trevor Ariza and Orlando Magic super sub Mickael Pietrus.
As well Bryant, James, Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Pau Gasol, Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and all the other major players have played during certain stretches, Ariza and Pietrus have been just as, if not more important to their team’s efforts.
Ariza’s made two game-clinching plays to seal wins for the Lakers, both defensive gems on inbounds plays. And Pietrus has not only been a lights out shooter against the Cavs, he’s played James as well defensively as any player I’ve seen in the last three seasons – and that includes defensive stalwarts Ron Artest and Bruce Bowen.
Now I’ll admit that my theory could be the product of viewing way too much playoff basketball the past month and counting, or an excessive amount of fumes to the dome from a long weekend spent over the top of my grill. But it seems like the contributions of these two role players will have as much to do with who plays in the NBA Finals as any singular effort from a superstar for any of the four teams remaining in this postseason.
Which brings me to our favorite topic ‘round these parts … the Hawks and their roster in need of major surgery this summer (more on that below).
Folks keep telling me about who needs to go to make this team better. And I keep thinking about what they need to add to this group to get better.
The Hawks need guys like Ariza and Pietrus to complete what they started with last year’s playoff appearance and continued this season with their Eastern Conference semifinal appearance.
Flip Murray and Mo Evans qualify, as does Zaza Pachulia. But of the three, only Evans is guaranteed to be in a Hawks uniform in the fall. Not only do the Hawks need to find ways to keep Murray and Pachulia in the fold, they need to find more guys like them (or better).
That’s where the Hawks greatest improvement will come next season (save a blockbuster trade), in the sum of their parts. And those parts have to improve down the roster.
Can you imagine the Hawks with an explosive scoring power forward like Charlie Villanueva (a restricted free agent this summer with a bit of a Twitter habit) or Chris Wilcox (another free agent this summer) coming off of their bench? And not as a replacement for Pachulia but as a running mate. That’s the kind of addition that helps recast the Hawks for next season.
If you’re serious about keeping the core together and still improving your roster, which is the theme we’ve heard from the Hawks non-stop since they were swept out of the playoffs.
DRAFT CHATTER is the favorite topic of many this time of year, and for good reason.
Draftniks everywhere have man-crushes on Spanish sensation Ricky Rubio ...
Spanish point guard phenom Ricky Rubio is the guy generating the most attention in the draft, for reasons good and apparently bad, per some folks.
The fine folks at TrueHoop did a bang up job detailing the luster and the risk of a player like Rubio, who is universally regarded as the best point guard “prospect” to come out of Europe in some time, and perhaps ever.
My most trusted source on all things Rubio is Lang Whitaker of SLAM Magazine, who has been on the Rubio bandwagon for years now. He’s the first person I can remember having seen Rubio play in person. And as best I can remember, he was the first writer to travel to Spain to interview and write about Rubio. So I’m going on his word that Rubio is going to be a star in the NBA.
“He is,” Whitaker said by phone Tuesday morning from his New York office. “The thing with Rubio is … did you see the gold medal game? He played great against Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Jason Kidd. I don’t know who else you want to see him against to convince you that he’s going to be a star.”
Lang doesn’t have to convince me. I’m willing to play along with the international charade as long as the player is as talented as Rubio (and I did watch the gold medal game. Rubio made some nice plays but he wasn’t what stood out to me).
But not everyone I’ve talked to is convinced.
“I’d much rather have Derrick Rose,” one Eastern Conference executive told me by phone Tuesday morning. “And it’s not even close in my eyes. Don’t get me wrong, Rubio is talented. He might have tons of potential. But seriously, how many times have we said that about one of these young kids and then he gets over here and we find out there are all these things about his game that just don’t add up in the NBA? That’s what worries me about Rubio. We’ve seen glimpses of him against NBA competition. It’s just like when you watch Rudy Fernandez and Linas Kleiza look unstoppable in international play and then they get to the NBA season and you realize it’s a totally different game. Rubio is going to find the same issues where his game is concerned.”
How that’s different from any other college player/prospect is beyond me. I mean, who knew Rose would be so good from the start? Actually, lots of people expected it. In fact, that’s what led the draft debate last year between Rose and Michael Beasley. There doesn’t seem to be the same sort of debate between the point guard and power forward this year (I’ve heard very few people discuss let alone advocate taking Rubio over Blake Griffin).
... while others wonder if he's even in the same class as a transcendent talent like Chicago's own Derrick Rose.
“A much better gauge is a guy who has dominated in Europe and then comes over here at the top of his game, like Pau Gasol did, like Manu Ginobili did and Luis Scola did,” the Eastern Conference exec continued.” They showed up ready to play because they weren’t just prospects, they were established players and really stars over there. The bottom line is this, the way you develop young players here and in Europe is vastly different. And it doesn’t always work best for young international players over here.”
An unabashed Hawks fan, Lang barked at me over a week ago about what he wants to see his hometown team do with the 19th pick in the June draft.
His email from last week:
Rick Sund’s last three first round picks? Robert Swift, Saer Sene and Johan Petro.
I really hope the Hawks draft Toney Douglas from FSU. We need to get his name out there. Dude can shoot, drives all the time, can play the 1 and 2 and was ACC defensive player of the year. And he’s from Jonesboro. I don’t understand why more people aren’t talking about him. Coach K said this at the ACC Tournament: ”He’s my favorite non-Duke player in the country. I love that guy. I talk about him a lot to our guys. They’re probably mad at me. He’s as good as there is in college.”
THE HAWKS AREN’T THE ONLY TEAM IN THE SOUTHEAST DIVISION stuck in point guard limbo with the draft and free agency fast approaching. The team the Hawks vanquished in the first round of the playoffs is in a similar predicament, though the Miami Heat already have one proven building block in Mario Chalmers.
My main man Mike Wallace of the Miami Herald points out as much in his latest blog, shouting out Hawks point guards past and present in the process:
And it makes you wonder. Why does every other team in the league seem to have a spare Flip Murray on the roster, yet the Heat goes two seasons without one? Shaun Livingston didn’t have the legs. Marcus Banks lacked the skills. And Penny Hardaway – dare we say – didn’t have anything left other than pleasant memories of when he used to be somebody in this league.
This Magic-Cavs series is stocked with serviceable, stop-gap type veteran parts at the point that Miami either tried to get and couldn’t, parted with too soon or probably should have pursued harder when it had the chance.
Orlando has three of them: Rafer Alston, Anthony Johnson and Tyronn Lue.
How crazy would it be to see the Magic make the NBA Finals with two point guards (Johnson and Lue for those of you who have just recently joined us here in Hawksville) the Hawks shipped out of town to get Mike Bibby on their roster?
Might Jonesboro's Toney Douglas be an option for the Hawks with the 19th pick in the June NBA Draft? It's an intriguing idea, courtesy of Lang Whitaker of SLAM Magazine.
And depending on what happens in July, Bibby could be joining them as ex-Hawks point guards.
The Hawks, of course, are in need of a starting material at the point. And that might come in the form of Bibby, if the Hawks can find a way to reel him back in from the free agent waters with the right deal, or someone else.
Speaking of Bibby, the good folks at Hawksquawk, threw some great questions my way about the team and where things might be headed. And as you can probably imagine, Bibby’s name came up several times.
We’ve discussed Bibby endlessly around here, so won’t go into detail about the tenor of the conversation they are having about him elsewhere. But I’ll share this one question and answer (and suggest you check out the rest of it on their site (which is pretty impressive, by the way):
Q. Was there a change in the locker-room demeanor since the addition of Bibby? Did he bring a playoff presence to the Hawks team? Is there any urgency (or perceived urgency) to resign Flip?
A. Bibby assumed a leadership position automatically, which is what the Hawks needed. He eased the pressure on Joe and Woodson as well, which needed to happen. And more than a playoff presence he brought a sense of accountability to the locker room, which was lacking before his arrival. He was the right personality and player at just the right time for the Hawks. It was almost like he added that “why not us?” factor to this team that wasn’t there before, a sense of they could do some things with him that didn’t really seem possible until he showed up. Flip proved invaluable this season and while I wouldn’t call it urgency, there’s certainly a need to make sure Flip is kept in the fold.
WITH SO MANY ROSTER QUESTIONS TO DEAL WITH THIS SUMMER it’s hard for me to imagine the Hawks’ brass taking too many days off between now and late July.
I know they’ve begun their predraft workouts, which unlike in years past are not open to the media. And the scaled down predraft camp has moved back to Chicago from Orlando this summer. It begins this week and runs into this weekend.
As far as the Hawks’ individual workouts, I’m not sure there will be much to talk about anyway. Astro Joe emailed a little while ago wondering if they’d begun and whether or not I’d seen anything worth talking about. I promptly relayed the story to him of Al Horford’s workout two years ago that left quite a few people scratching their heads as to what all the fuss was about.
Billy Knight went 1-for-2 (so far) in the first round of his last draft with the Hawks.
Had the Hawks based their pick in that year’s draft on the workout alone, Horford might not have been the choice (luckily for us all Billy Knight stuck to his “gimme the best power forward type I can get at this spot” guns and made the right call).
Different teams value different things in the predraft process. Some want to see what a guy looks like on the hoof or how he tests out in various drills that have little or nothing to do with why you’d want a guy on your team.
Others want to see if he interviews a certain way, wanting to make sure they’re adding the right type of guy to their team. Me, I need to know a guy can play. And I’m positive I can tell more from watching him play in games than I can from anything he’ll do in a scripted workout.
But that doesn’t mean I won’t relay what I’m hearing leading up to the draft. After all, this is easily one of the Hawks’ most critical summers in a string of huge ones. What they do in the draft and free agency basically determines if they’re going to stay among the upper echelon of the Eastern Conference or slide back down to the playoff purgatory waters that they bathed in for years.
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657 comments Add your comment
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
9:28 pm
Sautee,
It wasn’t SUND who wasn’t allowed to act. It was the HAWKS. There is a rule stating that if you want to re-sign a player slated to become a restricted free agent, you must do so by October 31 of the year BEFORE he becomes a free agent. Otherwise, you can’t make any offers to that player OR trade that player before July 1.
And the statement does jive with it perfectly, for one of two reasons. First, Sund isn’t as stupid as Hammond on the Bucks is. He’s like all the smart GMs in the league – they ALL say that their top priority is to re-sign their free agents and to say that they’ll match all offers. That forces other teams to call you and inquire about trade possibilities. Case in point – the Suns probably had no intention of re-signing JJ in 2005 for more than $9M/yr, but they told everyone in the league that their top priority was re-signing JJ and that they’d match any offer for him. And despite the fact that he was probably bluffing…well, we all remember that.
Second, Sund might have honestly had every intention of re-signing Chill, but once it became clear that that would cost $8M instead of $6M (thanks to the Greek offer to overpay him and pay his taxes), he might have thought better of it. I sure as hell would have.
Remember, we’re not the only team that this happened to last year. Pargo bolted New Orleans and Arroyo bolted Orlando last year for Europe. And those guys didn’t get paid way above the MLE like Chill did. But I guess those GMs are also dumbasses who don’t know how to use their assets.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
9:39 pm
Nire,
BTW my last post was written BEFORE I read your 9:04. Watching the game and got distracted. But it was NOT intended as an answer to your 9:04, but a further response to your earlier posts.
And I found this and want your reaction:
TrueHoop: “The NBA’s collective bargaining agreement includes a ton of complicated clauses. Each serves a purpose, and you can make a case that, all told, it’s a good and fairly fair system. But regulation is always burdensome, and this league, famously run by lawyers, is knee-deep in legalese. In this instance, those rules created a really weird deal. According to Josh Childress, there were championship-contending NBA teams that were willing to pay him more than the Hawks would. A sign-and-trade couldn’t be worked out, so Childress was stuck. But that makes a situation where here’s an employee, a place that wanted to employ him, and an agreed upon price. In normal human life, that’s all you need to make a deal. You can only tinker with the free market so much before it starts depressing normal economic activity. This is one of those cases. A rule (essentially, the salary cap) designed solely to keep NBA teams competitive with each other now ends up helping a whole different league.”
At the same site was this: Lang Whitaker, SLAM Online: “… I don’t think it needed to come to this. The Hawks didn’t have to pay him as much as he’s making in Greece, but they had to pay him something, anything. It just wasn’t happening, according to Josh. ‘I had conversations with Rick and ownership and that was my number one goal to return to Atlanta,’ Josh said. ‘But I wanted to get my contract done early, but when that didn’t happen, I was kind of forced to explore my options.’”
So, Nire does this sound like he felt respected?
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
9:48 pm
And to be PERFECTLY CLEAR, I NEVER would have paid Chills what he got in Greece. NEVER!
Good for him that he got a big payday, but that would have been insane.
And I’ll concede that the rules hamstrung Sund a bit in this case. Thanks for the explanation.
But I’ll wonder forever what if we had offered $5.5M on July 1st what might have happened. We’ll never know.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
9:55 pm
Childress’s quote doesn’t sound like a man disrespected. He sounds like a man who couldn’t get paid what he thought he was worth. But that’s life. The Hawks thought they could make better uses of $7-8M/yr than spending it all on Josh Childress. The fact that other teams were willing to offer “more” doesn’t mean jack if those other teams didn’t have the cap space to sign him and only offered the Hawks useless players or bad contracts in a sign-and-trade.
Lang Whitaker, Sekou’s plaudits notwithstanding, talks out of his a$$ as much as the folks on ESPN do. His articles are 60% fact, 40% opinion. The portion where he says that “The Hawks didn’t have to pay him as much as he’s making in Greece, but they had to pay him something, anything.” is clearly opinion, because the Hawks DID offer Childress something. It just wasn’t nearly as much as the Greeks offered. Whitaker and most of the people who follow the NBA are too set in their views of the basketball world to fathom how a solid NBA player could choose to play in Europe unless he was disrespected by NBA teams.
But just because Whitaker says it doesn’t make it true, particularly with a player as smart and worldly as Childress. Childress was a unique case – a well-rounded player who did everything well but nothing great. No NBA team in a position to sign him or trade useful assets for him was willing to pay him more than ~$6.5M. The Greek team offered him the equivalent of a $9M+ American contract. Take that monetary gap and add on the fact that Childress is a smart, wordly guy who loves the idea of globetrotting, and it makes perfect sense that he’d choose to jump overseas for a couple years.
I’ll let you in on a little secret. If a Greek, Italian, or Spanish law firm offered me a 30% pay raise and the opportunity to travel Europe and bask in the Mediterranean sun for 3 years, it wouldn’t take my current employer “disrespecting” me to take the deal. I’m sure most unmarried young guys would feel the same way.
I’m enjoying this, btw. Keep it coming
.
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
10:01 pm
Nire,
“The Greeks came to him, and for good reason – they knew that no American team would be willing to offer what they would. To match what the Greeks gave him, we would have had to pay him close to $9M/yr (since the Greek team pays his taxes, something an American team obviously couldn’t do).”
You’re right, Olympiacos did make the initial contact to Childress agent. However, they also reach out to other players as well and only Childress fail for their sales pitch (and I wonder why)? Also note that up to 15 teams contacted Chill’s agent and he said the Hawks had drag their feet during negotiations. So to imply that Sund couldn’t have handle this situation differently is crazy b/c there was options on the table for him to explore had he not overplayed his hand. Also, if he’s able to workout a S&T this offseason then it only confirmed the fact that he drop the ball last summer as he wasted salary cap space on an imaginery player. Finally, you are ignoring the fact that Chills preference was/is to play in the NBA, so had the Hawks resolved his contract situation quicker than Europe would not have been an option (negotiations dragged for weeks) so to say that another NBA team would have to pay 7,8,9 million to match the Europe offer is your attempt to mislead us with evidence that occurred after the fact. (i.e. quicker decisions by the Hawks, no Europe offer to match)…
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/12/sports/basketball/12childress.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
You mean to tell me that Speedy was going to make more money the Chills (keep in mind Smoove hadn’t signed yet).
“Atlanta general manager Rick Sund said that while he believes the Hawks made a proposal that was competitive within the NBA, it would have been fiscally irresponsible to try to match Olympiacos. Sund wouldn’t reveal the exact numbers of Atlanta’s offer. But he said it exceeded the salary cap’s midlevel exception, which is more than $5.5 million, and would have made Childress the team’s fourth highest paid player.”
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
10:02 pm
nire, these back and forth debates are terrific, aren’t they? I’ve been known to enter into a few now and then myself. Ya’ll keep it up, I’m enjoying reading the good stuff.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
10:04 pm
And PS, here’s a segment of Sekou’s article on the signing:
Former Hawks swingman Josh Childress had no idea he’d be the pioneer he appears to be today, the morning after signing a three-year, $32.5- million contract with Greek powerhouse Olympiakos, rather than accepting a deal from the Hawks.
Childress, 25, is the first player at this stage of his NBA career to spurn the world’s most high-profile basketball stage for one of its international alternatives.
Atlanta had offered him a five-year, $33 million contract. But the Hawks’ slow-paced negotiating tactics and the limits of restricted free agency, combined with what Childress called Wednesday the “opportunity of a lifetime,” resulted in his decision.
And before you jump on the “slow-paced negotiating” comment, ask yourself this: What more would there be to discuss? We offered the man 5 years at $6.6M/year. The Greek team came to him with a deal that was way more than that. We probably couldn’t have gotten him for less than $7.5M, and certainly not for less than $7M. So again – why should we have had a sense of urgency about those negotiations? Why shouldn’t we have instead focused our energy on finding, say, a swingman defensive specialist willing to play for a 2 year, $2.5M contract?
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
10:11 pm
How about a round of I Believe in Magic! Cleveland just cannot put Orlando down. This is the difference between playing the Hawks and the Magic. Most of our playoff games were decided in the 1st quarter. Orlando never seems to be out of the game early.
niremetal & Sautee – you two are cracking me up. It’s like watching a rerun of late July 2008.
I’d give you this parallel for the Chills/Sund situation.
1-If you get to the bar early, you get a larger selection of ladies to chat with if you choose to do so. If you chat up a nice lady early who isn’t the top tier woman in the place, she may appreciate you more.
2-If you get to her after being blown off by others first, you are in trouble if she noticed your prior failures.
3-If you don’t talk to anyone, maybe the ladies think you have alternate interests or personal preferences. They definitely won’t think more of you if your conversation doesn’t start until she is about to leave with another guy.
If Sund wanted Chills to feel wanted, he should not have given him that #3 treatment. If Sund gives any of his free agents the #1 treatment, he might get a hometown discount or a quick commitment if the player doesn’t want to play the waiting game. Sometimes, an active courtship from the guy/team with less money, but more interest works.
niremetal, notice that neither Sautee nor I said blow your bar budget/cap space in situation #1…and you also have to factor in that the other ladies in the bar (i.e. future free agents on this team) were watching the style of negotiation.
Time will tell if he can improve that rep this summer.
Maybe he is the guy with the Dos Equis…i.e. the most interesting man in the world
BWAF, my friends!
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
10:16 pm
Melvin,
I refer you to my previous 3 posts for answers to the S&T (non-)option, the supposed “disrespect,” and the supposed “feet-dragging.”
As for why Childress took the deal. Uh…because he was Olympiacos’s top choice. Pretty simple. I’ve read about a dozen articles saying that saying that other agents were interested in the deals Olympiacos was offering if Childress turned them down, but that Childress was their top choice. I’ll try to find one of those in a bit, or you can look it up yourself. In any case, for all the reasons I said in my most recent post, Childress was a perfect storm – both in terms of why he made sense for Olympiacos, and for why the contract and opportunity made sense for him.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
10:18 pm
Manny,
How does a 5-year, $6.6M/yr offer square with #3??
O'brien
May 28th, 2009
10:19 pm
In the article, Childress said he “expected the Hawks to waive his rights and free up cap space”. Interesting, because I dont see the Hawks doing that. Imagine the uproar if we lost the #6 pick in the league for nothing. He averaged 11.8 points off the bench. Not to mention his hustle points (the base-line bandit) and key offensive rebounds.
The Hawks dragged their feet last year with Chills, and I wonder if the Hawks will drag their feet again this year.
RealSquawk
May 28th, 2009
10:20 pm
Was stan van gundy available when Billy was trying to fire Woody.
How nice would the Hawks be if he was at the helm you talk about coming out of half time fired up and adjustments made.
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
10:23 pm
The Hawks offer showed up after Chills had the Greek offer. If that proposal was there before he went to Greece, Chills may have never gotten on the plane.
I compare it to bad service from a business. As long as they don’t upset me enough that I start looking at other options, their service is good enough. As soon as I start comparing what one offers versus the other, my business is now in play and I’m more likely to switch. Sund slow played Chills until he was looking for other options.
BWAF
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
10:26 pm
Manny,
Source that. I don’t recall ever seeing an article saying that the Hawks’ offer came after the Greek offer.
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
10:26 pm
That offer matches up with 3 because Sund’s initial negotiation position was go out and find offers. If we think they are reasonable we will match. That’s what we get to do because of RFA rules.
Sund didn’t put out the we like you card until Chills was ready to walk out of the bar with the Greek hottie.
BWAF
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
10:27 pm
Manny,
LOL, good stuff. “Stay Thirsty My Friend”.
Nire,
As I said, I’ll always wonder what might have been had we offered $5.5M on July 1. Who knows, maybe we’re better off the way it is. But I sure miss Chills’ energy.
Here’s yet another post from the site I found. I suspect there are holes in this argument and I’ll trust you and Manny to find them and let us know:
Ziller, FanHouse: “Childress carries a cap hold of $14.5 million. Assuming the Hawks can manage to retain Josh Smith for about $10 million a year, Atlanta figures to be about $20 million under the salary cap next summer. (Mike Bibby and Zaza Pachulia are coming off the books.) That can buy a mighty fine free agent. But unless Atlanta renounces its rights to Childress — meaning Chills would no longer be a restricted free agent, he could sign with any NBA team and the Hawks wouldn’t have matching rights — $14.5 million of that cap space will be locked up in that cap hold. That means Atlanta would have only roughly $5.5 million of space, and that’s less than the mid-level exception. The Hawks would then have no cap space, and would be in the same boat as 85% of the NBA. If the Hawks had overpaid Childress with, say, an $8 million annual contract, they would be able to go get a $12 million player in free agency next year … and they’d have Childress’s production! Instead, nothing and nothing.”
This seems unlikely to me, but how ’bout ’splainin’ why.
And yes, Manny it’s like the good old days of Summer ‘08, but without the acrimony.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
10:32 pm
HAHAHAHA!!!!! Wow, Sautee. Yeah, whoever this Ziller guy is, he’s talking out of his rear iris. The Hawks’ cap hold on Childress is based on the amount of his last NBA contract, not his current Greek contract. That means that it’s ~$5.7M, not $14M.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
10:35 pm
Sautee,
You are also assuming that we didn’t offer $5.5M on July 1. We know that the Hawks made an offer that started above the MLE, which was $5.7M last year. So you can strike that off the list. Again, don’t talk from speculation. Find a source when you make assertions that assume that we never offered Josh anything during the opening days of free agency.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
10:38 pm
I knew it sounded wrong, I just didn’t know how.
Still, isn’t that a lot to carry for an invisible man?
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
10:39 pm
Sourced!
I don’t make all of it up;-) I was deep into the Chills watch last summer.
From NY Times link that Melvin provided
He had planned on re-signing with the Hawks, who had said signing him and Josh Smith were off-season priorities. But Childress expected a contract within days of the start of free agency this July, and negotiations dragged on for weeks.
Check out the section titled BLACK EYE FOR THE HAWKS
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/122618
BWAF
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
10:41 pm
Manny,
Your source says that the negotiations dragged on for weeks, not that an initial offer wasn’t made.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
10:44 pm
PS, I was wrongish about the cap hold – it’s about $9M, not $5.7M. It’s not a big deal at all as long as we’re over the cap anyway. And we can renounce Childress as soon as we’re far enough under the cap where it makes a difference. There’s just no need to do that this summer, since we don’t have any cap space anyway.
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
10:49 pm
Nire,
I could be wrong but I think the Sund made a final offer that start above the MLE (which came after the Greek offer). Sund stated that Chills offer would have made him the 4th high paid player on the team (again, Smoove hadn’t signed yet). So you know Bibby and Joe contracts was more than his offer, so who was the next highest paid Hawk at the time???? Hint, Speedy Claxton. Who salary was 5.7 this past season. So its safe to assume that Chills salary was lower than 5.7….
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
10:52 pm
Nire,
Here’s Sund qoute to go with my 10:49 post
“Atlanta general manager Rick Sund said that while he believes the Hawks made a proposal that was competitive within the NBA, it would have been fiscally irresponsible to try to match Olympiacos. Sund wouldn’t reveal the exact numbers of Atlanta’s offer. But he said it exceeded the salary cap’s midlevel exception, which is more than $5.5 million, and would have made Childress the team’s fourth highest paid player.”
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
10:53 pm
I think Chills cap hold is above $9 mil.
His last salary with the Hawks was a little over $3.6 mil. Check chart in Q30 of Larry Coon site.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q30
Then the part just under that references RFA. Cap hold is at least 2.5 x last salary which would put you just over 9 mil. I am being conservative becuase of the middle column of the chart. If that means below avg salary for all players (=MLE) then you multiply that salary by 3 to get almost $11 mil.
That’s A LOT of Dos Equuis
BWAF
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
10:57 pm
Nire,
I made no assertions that assumed such.
“Second, Sund might have honestly had every intention of re-signing Chill, but once it became clear that that would cost $8M instead of $6M (thanks to the Greek offer to overpay him and pay his taxes), he might have thought better of it. I sure as hell would have.”
Isn’t THAT talking from speculation? I’ve been enjoying this, but let’s not get into lecturing, ok?
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
10:58 pm
And another thing, who is Sund trying to fool with the statement below:
” Rick Sund said that while he believes the Hawks made a proposal that was competitive within the NBA”…
Now exactly how many teams was under the salary cap that could have made a better offer than the MLE. Keep in mind all the big name FA ha already signed.
Dear Mr. Sund,
We don’t want Savvy word play in the media, we want Championship on the court play…
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
11:01 pm
Looking at the cap space as another version of asset management, half the team is currently free agents. Under normal circumstances that would put you under the cap. Then you get to decide–resign our players or make a big play like Philly and the Clippers (and sort of Memphis) did last summer.
However, holding 9-11 mil of cap space for a guy that you definitely would not sign for anywhere close to that amount makes it very difficult to upgrade your roster even though we currently have less than $41 mil committed to salaries for next season.
Chills is a heavier load in Greece than he ever was in Atlanta.
Sautee, this one’s for you. Next time we meet up, it’s the double X.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bc0WjTT0Ps
BWAF my friends.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
11:03 pm
Danny Crawford is a eunuch. No balls at all.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
11:08 pm
Sautee,
I wasn’t lecturing, and I wasn’t guilty of unclean hands. The portion you posted was a direct response to how Sund’s actions might have “gibed” with his statements. I prefaced my responses by saying “Sund might have,” which is an explicit indication that I’m speculating. I have no problem with speculation per se; only with speculation masked as facts.
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
11:12 pm
Is local sourcing better? The plan was wait and match.
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/bradley/entries/2008/08/08/hawks_can_and_must_keep_smith.html
That, you should know, was the only formal bid the Hawks made before deciding late Friday night to match. As happened with Childress, they dared a free agent to go out and find a better deal. Josh C. found one, albeit in a country bordering the Mediterranean. Josh S. wasn’t so fortunate. The really big money dried up before it cascaded down on him.
BWAF
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
11:13 pm
OK, Nire, and I said I’ll always WONDER……doesn’t exactly sound like I was trying to be factual now does it?
O'brien
May 28th, 2009
11:17 pm
I’ve really liked the way Mickael Pietrus has played. But it’s funny that they say he has played Lebron well. Despite the fact that Lebron is averaging over 40 points per game.
As for the Chills discussion, I dont want to have $9 mil tied up in a player that will not play for us. It’s bad enough we have Speedy making a little over $5 mil sitting on the bench, add that to Chills that makes $14 mil in deadweight.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
11:20 pm
Manny,
Read on:
They didn’t raise their offer to Childress after Olympiakos emerged as a real player.
In other words, they had already made an offer – otherwise, there would have been nothing to “raise.” When Olympiacos came in and offered the equivalent of a $9M/yr contract, the Hawks went no further. That’s basically what I said I thought happened – Sund DID make an initial offer. He just decided to look elsewhere once Olympiacos offered way, way more than we were willing to pay.
Sautee,
Fair ’nuff. My bad!
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
11:22 pm
Nire and Manny,
doc refers to the cap hold as “play money” saying in effect that it doesn’t affect cash flow. How exactly does that work?
If O’Brien is right, then I’d have to agree.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
11:23 pm
Matt,
no prob, we’re cool.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
11:26 pm
Enjoyed the banter. ‘night all
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
11:26 pm
Rafer Alston shot the Magic right out of the game in the 4th…
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
11:41 pm
Sautee,
Doc is right. O’Brien is a bit off-base. The “cap hold” simply means that for the purposes of determining how much we are under the cap during the free agency period, Josh counts for ~$9M. But that has no effect on cash flow – the money is not paid to anyone or anything. Basically, the cap hold is designed to stop a team that is technically “under the cap” but that has a bunch of its own free agents left to re-sign from going out and signing other teams’ free agents (since they’re “under the cap”) and THEN re-signing their own free agents (which they’re allowed to do even if it puts them over the cap).
So long story short – yeah, it’s play money. It doesn’t effect cash flow, and it disappears off our salary cap sheet if we renounce Childress.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
11:42 pm
And I spent WAY too much time on this tonight. Ha!
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
11:51 pm
Sautee, are you and doc using off blog communications again
Cap hold is not real cash, but it does determine how you can spend your cap money. The cap hold for Chills decreases the money the Hawks can spend by about $10 mil/season until his NBA status is resolved. I think that until he is officially back in the FIBA fold, the Hawks have that part of their cap money frozen.
This could be enough of a reason to tell Chills agents that you are willing to do a sign & trade. His cap hold craps up a chunk of Sund’s flexibility to remake the roster.
niremetal, I should not have said that no offer was made, but when I read Chills view in the Sports Business Daily article, he states that there was daily contact from his side and the Hawks were dragging their feet.
In the NY Times article, Chills says about the meeting with the Greeks in Las Vegas
“It’s a good feeling,” Childress said. “I felt wanted. I felt important.”
Bottom line for me was that making the guy feel good during negotiations makes it easier for you to close the deal prior to other entities coming into play. Once he had to sell himself to other NBA teams and got some nibbles, it was a messy situation because of RFA rules.
If another team wanted to pay him more than MLE, they could not w/o the Hawks permission. If such a situation is found, it makes sense that Chills believes he is worth that amount. Chills didn’t have the high profile visits that Smith did, but you got the impression that other teams had interest if there was sign and trade talk.
Gotta let the blog go for the night. If I need to do more on this I’ll see it in the morning.
BWAF
niremetal
May 29th, 2009
1:06 am
I don’t believe for a second that Chill would have stayed here for $6.5M or even $7M in the face of the Greek offer that paid him $3M-$4M more in take-home cash. If you really think he would, ok, and we can agree to disagree.
But the bottom line for me is this: There was no way we could keep Childress here at a price that made any financial sense. Given that, our best option was to let him go to Europe…at least last summer. This summer is trickier, since we surely will not tender him another qualifying offer next summer unless we extend both JJ and Marvin. Under those circumstances, this might be the last chance to get something for him.
But again, no one should fall into the trap of thinking that if we don’t re-sign Childress or trade him, that means the front office blew it. That’s the whole point of my whole dissertation on this. My guess is that no NBA team will make Childress an offer that we won’t be willing to match. I’m also assuming that Sund would not be so stupid as to ignore a sign-and-trade offer that would give us SOMEthing of net value. Assuming I’m right about those two things, then we might be right back where we were last summer. And if that’s the case, and if our only options are:
1) Overpay to get him (and I would consider anything much over $7M/yr overpaying)
2) Sign-and-trade him in a deal where we have to take back bad, non-expiring contracts; or
3) Let him go back to Europe…
Then I take option 3. Every time.
dap01
May 29th, 2009
8:22 am
Childress followed the money. Good for him. But he is not worth near that money in the NBA. Either he plays for us at a very reduced rate or we get something of value for his rights. Other than that, let’s go get a center and a PG (a coach would be nice also).
jhan
May 29th, 2009
9:34 am
If by renouncing the rights to Childress we free up enough cap space to get the players we need for this team then I don’t see any problem with that. Whats the difference between doing that or a S&T this offseason. Net is we get the player we need.
I don’t get caught up in the players “feelings” or did we show him enough respect. It’s the players job to milk as much money as possible from the team. The teams job is to sign the player for as little as possible. That scenario is set-up to create animosity.
Childress is not worth more than the MLE. Especially for the next few years as this economy suffers. There will be many players of equal or greater skill looking for work. Why pay more than needed?
How long will Childress be happy in Greece? Will he feel the pull to play against the best again? He may decide to be a middle of the road player in Europe that gets overpaid his entire career. Nothing wrong with that if the money is right.
Melvin
May 29th, 2009
9:46 am
If the consensus is that Childress is worth the MLE then how much is Marvin worth? Wasn’t it Childress that replace Marvin in the lineup to closeout games for the Hawks. Should we evaluate Childress contract base on him being bench player or his vital role to the team? How come it’s expected that the Hawks should offer Marvin more than his qualifying offer (of over 7 mil) when he played less of role to the team success than Childress????
Melvin
May 29th, 2009
9:56 am
This link is for you Sautee and MannyT
http://www.slate.com/id/2218849/?Gt1=38001
Stay thirsty my friends…
Astro Joe
May 29th, 2009
10:11 am
jhan, I agree. It seems like it is easier to renounce Chill and have the flexibility to go after any free agent on any team than to have to worry about negotiating a S & T with a team that is interested in Chill. Not to mention, that we can only negotiate a S & T if Chill opts out of his Greek contract. But we can drop the afro and just be done with the whole mess.
Melvin, I think Marvin’s development as an above average perimeter defender this past season would have likely kept Chill on the bench at the end of games. If Sund can get Joe to agree on an extension this summer, then I would cut Marvin loose. But if Joe doesn’t sign an extension, I would try to negotiate a long-term deal with Marvin. If we have to rebuild our backcourt in ‘10-11, then I’d rather do it around a Horford/Smith/Marvin front court.
I MUS.WRITE
May 29th, 2009
10:54 am
DAM it man….. Good post just got eaten…. Sekou did u zapp me for sayn NWA
Mike is back
May 29th, 2009
11:02 am
It seems either Thabeet or Stephan Curry may not last past the third pick…THERE IT IS…THE BIG AND PG/SG I WOULD PURSUE IN THE DRAFT.
http://www.drewsportswatch.com/
I love the kid Stephan Curry…he can light it up…but I’m still holding out hope that Acie will be given a shot…If I was going to take a PG in the Hawks position…I would wait to the second round…I think some these PGs being mentioned at the 19th pick…will fall to the second round. If that’s the case…why not stick with Acie. Excuse my shameless plug for CHARLESG…that’s my nephew. I told my sister I would shout him out to the BLOG CREW!!!! lolMannyT and Niremetal thanks for keen insight on the cap figures and under currents they pose for Sund during FA. I’m use to MannyT putting it down…with Nire in the mix…it makes things VERY interesting. Sund and ASG will have to remain vigilant throughout the process…too much is at stake. Having said that…I STILL SAY…PLAYERS MAKE PLAYS AND GM MAKE DEALS!!!!!!!!
Even with all these ramifications…there will still be some mega deals made come July…I just hope we are in the mix for a change. I’m with NewK on this issue…IF AIN’T ABOUT THE LARRY O’BRIAN TROPHY…WHY BOTHER MEASURING SUCCESS!!!!!!
Niremetal, if you couldn’t make a deal involving Josh…what would be your first big impact move for the Hawks? Excuse the context of my blog…I still get angina thinking about English in College…thank god I write software code for living…I would be out of work. Heh heh
HUGE GAME BY LBJ…man I have been glued to the tube every nite sense the Conference Final started…the basketball gods are giving us a treat I’m on records as saying both series will go seven games…it might be six. Could it be LA and ORLANDO?
LETS GO DHOWARD…I’M ROOTING FOR U FOLK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
doc
May 29th, 2009
11:05 am
melvin it almost wants to make me grow my hair back along with the beard again. wild thing with experience.
also know that the hawks have closed off try outs for in coming draftees, so what? we wont see them for a couple of years on the court anyway.
on the other hand the trauma would be great if jhan and i couldnt see the in coming talent for the 2009-2010 a town dancers. looks pretty tasty just from the pix they showed. keep it coming ajc.
sekou, were you the one behind the camera? if not, why not bro? you arent getting paid to sit and why miss such a display of pulchitrude or do you just like naked men? samuel talk to the cuz man, he might need someone to hold the lights.