Wanted: Role Players!
Frontcourt help like Charlie Villanueva could make a huge difference for the Hawks in the future.
HAWKSVILLE – I know that the NBA hype machine would have you believe that the NBA playoffs is basically a test of wills between Kobe Bryant and LeBron James.
If you let the networks tell it, we’re all just bearing witness to the crowning of the king or the validation of KB24’s reign as the heir to his Airness.
Count Magic superstar center and Atlanta native Dwight Howard among those who have heard just about enough. And the AJC’s own Jeff Schultz isn’t far behind Howard in the enough is enough line.
The only problem with all the Kobe/LeBron fuss is that arguably the two most critical guys on the floor thus far in these outstanding Eastern and Western Conference finals have been Lakers’ swingman Trevor Ariza and Orlando Magic super sub Mickael Pietrus.
As well Bryant, James, Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Pau Gasol, Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and all the other major players have played during certain stretches, Ariza and Pietrus have been just as, if not more important to their team’s efforts.
Ariza’s made two game-clinching plays to seal wins for the Lakers, both defensive gems on inbounds plays. And Pietrus has not only been a lights out shooter against the Cavs, he’s played James as well defensively as any player I’ve seen in the last three seasons – and that includes defensive stalwarts Ron Artest and Bruce Bowen.
Now I’ll admit that my theory could be the product of viewing way too much playoff basketball the past month and counting, or an excessive amount of fumes to the dome from a long weekend spent over the top of my grill. But it seems like the contributions of these two role players will have as much to do with who plays in the NBA Finals as any singular effort from a superstar for any of the four teams remaining in this postseason.
Which brings me to our favorite topic ‘round these parts … the Hawks and their roster in need of major surgery this summer (more on that below).
Folks keep telling me about who needs to go to make this team better. And I keep thinking about what they need to add to this group to get better.
The Hawks need guys like Ariza and Pietrus to complete what they started with last year’s playoff appearance and continued this season with their Eastern Conference semifinal appearance.
Flip Murray and Mo Evans qualify, as does Zaza Pachulia. But of the three, only Evans is guaranteed to be in a Hawks uniform in the fall. Not only do the Hawks need to find ways to keep Murray and Pachulia in the fold, they need to find more guys like them (or better).
That’s where the Hawks greatest improvement will come next season (save a blockbuster trade), in the sum of their parts. And those parts have to improve down the roster.
Can you imagine the Hawks with an explosive scoring power forward like Charlie Villanueva (a restricted free agent this summer with a bit of a Twitter habit) or Chris Wilcox (another free agent this summer) coming off of their bench? And not as a replacement for Pachulia but as a running mate. That’s the kind of addition that helps recast the Hawks for next season.
If you’re serious about keeping the core together and still improving your roster, which is the theme we’ve heard from the Hawks non-stop since they were swept out of the playoffs.
DRAFT CHATTER is the favorite topic of many this time of year, and for good reason.
Draftniks everywhere have man-crushes on Spanish sensation Ricky Rubio ...
Spanish point guard phenom Ricky Rubio is the guy generating the most attention in the draft, for reasons good and apparently bad, per some folks.
The fine folks at TrueHoop did a bang up job detailing the luster and the risk of a player like Rubio, who is universally regarded as the best point guard “prospect” to come out of Europe in some time, and perhaps ever.
My most trusted source on all things Rubio is Lang Whitaker of SLAM Magazine, who has been on the Rubio bandwagon for years now. He’s the first person I can remember having seen Rubio play in person. And as best I can remember, he was the first writer to travel to Spain to interview and write about Rubio. So I’m going on his word that Rubio is going to be a star in the NBA.
“He is,” Whitaker said by phone Tuesday morning from his New York office. “The thing with Rubio is … did you see the gold medal game? He played great against Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Jason Kidd. I don’t know who else you want to see him against to convince you that he’s going to be a star.”
Lang doesn’t have to convince me. I’m willing to play along with the international charade as long as the player is as talented as Rubio (and I did watch the gold medal game. Rubio made some nice plays but he wasn’t what stood out to me).
But not everyone I’ve talked to is convinced.
“I’d much rather have Derrick Rose,” one Eastern Conference executive told me by phone Tuesday morning. “And it’s not even close in my eyes. Don’t get me wrong, Rubio is talented. He might have tons of potential. But seriously, how many times have we said that about one of these young kids and then he gets over here and we find out there are all these things about his game that just don’t add up in the NBA? That’s what worries me about Rubio. We’ve seen glimpses of him against NBA competition. It’s just like when you watch Rudy Fernandez and Linas Kleiza look unstoppable in international play and then they get to the NBA season and you realize it’s a totally different game. Rubio is going to find the same issues where his game is concerned.”
How that’s different from any other college player/prospect is beyond me. I mean, who knew Rose would be so good from the start? Actually, lots of people expected it. In fact, that’s what led the draft debate last year between Rose and Michael Beasley. There doesn’t seem to be the same sort of debate between the point guard and power forward this year (I’ve heard very few people discuss let alone advocate taking Rubio over Blake Griffin).
... while others wonder if he's even in the same class as a transcendent talent like Chicago's own Derrick Rose.
“A much better gauge is a guy who has dominated in Europe and then comes over here at the top of his game, like Pau Gasol did, like Manu Ginobili did and Luis Scola did,” the Eastern Conference exec continued.” They showed up ready to play because they weren’t just prospects, they were established players and really stars over there. The bottom line is this, the way you develop young players here and in Europe is vastly different. And it doesn’t always work best for young international players over here.”
An unabashed Hawks fan, Lang barked at me over a week ago about what he wants to see his hometown team do with the 19th pick in the June draft.
His email from last week:
Rick Sund’s last three first round picks? Robert Swift, Saer Sene and Johan Petro.
I really hope the Hawks draft Toney Douglas from FSU. We need to get his name out there. Dude can shoot, drives all the time, can play the 1 and 2 and was ACC defensive player of the year. And he’s from Jonesboro. I don’t understand why more people aren’t talking about him. Coach K said this at the ACC Tournament: ”He’s my favorite non-Duke player in the country. I love that guy. I talk about him a lot to our guys. They’re probably mad at me. He’s as good as there is in college.”
THE HAWKS AREN’T THE ONLY TEAM IN THE SOUTHEAST DIVISION stuck in point guard limbo with the draft and free agency fast approaching. The team the Hawks vanquished in the first round of the playoffs is in a similar predicament, though the Miami Heat already have one proven building block in Mario Chalmers.
My main man Mike Wallace of the Miami Herald points out as much in his latest blog, shouting out Hawks point guards past and present in the process:
And it makes you wonder. Why does every other team in the league seem to have a spare Flip Murray on the roster, yet the Heat goes two seasons without one? Shaun Livingston didn’t have the legs. Marcus Banks lacked the skills. And Penny Hardaway – dare we say – didn’t have anything left other than pleasant memories of when he used to be somebody in this league.
This Magic-Cavs series is stocked with serviceable, stop-gap type veteran parts at the point that Miami either tried to get and couldn’t, parted with too soon or probably should have pursued harder when it had the chance.
Orlando has three of them: Rafer Alston, Anthony Johnson and Tyronn Lue.
How crazy would it be to see the Magic make the NBA Finals with two point guards (Johnson and Lue for those of you who have just recently joined us here in Hawksville) the Hawks shipped out of town to get Mike Bibby on their roster?
Might Jonesboro's Toney Douglas be an option for the Hawks with the 19th pick in the June NBA Draft? It's an intriguing idea, courtesy of Lang Whitaker of SLAM Magazine.
And depending on what happens in July, Bibby could be joining them as ex-Hawks point guards.
The Hawks, of course, are in need of a starting material at the point. And that might come in the form of Bibby, if the Hawks can find a way to reel him back in from the free agent waters with the right deal, or someone else.
Speaking of Bibby, the good folks at Hawksquawk, threw some great questions my way about the team and where things might be headed. And as you can probably imagine, Bibby’s name came up several times.
We’ve discussed Bibby endlessly around here, so won’t go into detail about the tenor of the conversation they are having about him elsewhere. But I’ll share this one question and answer (and suggest you check out the rest of it on their site (which is pretty impressive, by the way):
Q. Was there a change in the locker-room demeanor since the addition of Bibby? Did he bring a playoff presence to the Hawks team? Is there any urgency (or perceived urgency) to resign Flip?
A. Bibby assumed a leadership position automatically, which is what the Hawks needed. He eased the pressure on Joe and Woodson as well, which needed to happen. And more than a playoff presence he brought a sense of accountability to the locker room, which was lacking before his arrival. He was the right personality and player at just the right time for the Hawks. It was almost like he added that “why not us?” factor to this team that wasn’t there before, a sense of they could do some things with him that didn’t really seem possible until he showed up. Flip proved invaluable this season and while I wouldn’t call it urgency, there’s certainly a need to make sure Flip is kept in the fold.
WITH SO MANY ROSTER QUESTIONS TO DEAL WITH THIS SUMMER it’s hard for me to imagine the Hawks’ brass taking too many days off between now and late July.
I know they’ve begun their predraft workouts, which unlike in years past are not open to the media. And the scaled down predraft camp has moved back to Chicago from Orlando this summer. It begins this week and runs into this weekend.
As far as the Hawks’ individual workouts, I’m not sure there will be much to talk about anyway. Astro Joe emailed a little while ago wondering if they’d begun and whether or not I’d seen anything worth talking about. I promptly relayed the story to him of Al Horford’s workout two years ago that left quite a few people scratching their heads as to what all the fuss was about.
Billy Knight went 1-for-2 (so far) in the first round of his last draft with the Hawks.
Had the Hawks based their pick in that year’s draft on the workout alone, Horford might not have been the choice (luckily for us all Billy Knight stuck to his “gimme the best power forward type I can get at this spot” guns and made the right call).
Different teams value different things in the predraft process. Some want to see what a guy looks like on the hoof or how he tests out in various drills that have little or nothing to do with why you’d want a guy on your team.
Others want to see if he interviews a certain way, wanting to make sure they’re adding the right type of guy to their team. Me, I need to know a guy can play. And I’m positive I can tell more from watching him play in games than I can from anything he’ll do in a scripted workout.
But that doesn’t mean I won’t relay what I’m hearing leading up to the draft. After all, this is easily one of the Hawks’ most critical summers in a string of huge ones. What they do in the draft and free agency basically determines if they’re going to stay among the upper echelon of the Eastern Conference or slide back down to the playoff purgatory waters that they bathed in for years.
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657 comments Add your comment
Big Ray
May 28th, 2009
11:01 am
Astro Joe,
Sorry. You’re right. Nothing I said made any sense whatsoever. GMs and coaches sharing common goals, perspectives, being on the same page? Whatever was I thinking? That’s a recipe for disaster, and no organization can function that way. Besides, sharing a common perspective with your coach automatically renders your ability as GM to be a second set of eyes. Everybody knows that. Even worse….my point did not coincide with yours. Dude, I am SO sorry about that.
Sautee,
Those were guys I thought of as well. The thing about Billups is that he changed several teams before becoming what he is now. Strange how the talented O’Neal could barely crack the rotation in Portland but was an instant double-double, followed by a 20-and-10 performer the minute he arrived in Indiana. Geez, I guess the Portland GM either didn’t recognize that his coach had a talented player, or forgot to tell his coach to play him more. Blast it all, WHO DIDN’T GET THE MEMO?!
CP,
You know me. When I get hot on the trail, changing direction is difficult.
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
11:02 am
The Truth,
Comeon, are you trying to say our 30 years in the NBA business GM doesn’t have a plan? I’m sure there’s a little birdie (Spirit) chasing after the moving NBA Champion Trophy around in that head of his….
The Truth
May 28th, 2009
11:23 am
Melvin,
His actions speak louder than his 30 resume. If I sound like a hater, for the record, I’m not. I’m just making an observation. I will also sing praise songs when I see the music.
RealSquawk
May 28th, 2009
11:29 am
Astro Joe,
For Billups just looking at his stats it seems to have really happened during his 7th year. That 7th year he was traded to Detroit. And he started about 54 games that 6th year and during that year year he had an increase in stats so it seems around there.
Sautee,
At first I thought you were completely wrong on that Devin Harris, but I checked the stats and yes he absolutely did. Jermain Oneal also really increased his stats as well. And yes it was directed at Josh. I don’t think he can’t improve, but I don’t think he will here (in this system) and if that is the case trade him before anybody else figures it out.
What it really boils down to is this. In each of those example the players were traded. Whether that was used as motivation for the players, a change in system, a change in scenery, a change in management or a combination of all those change appears to be necessary.
ILL-logical
May 28th, 2009
11:29 am
The sad part about watching the otherwise captivating conference championships is the overt desire of the NBA to market the “stars” to generate revenue rather than letting the best teams prove their superiority on the court.
Iknow,I know ,the NBA is a business and their first responsibility is make aprofit but do they have to stoop to the level of the WWF ?
The league’s actions do not favor the Hawks aspirations for a championship because,frankly, they have no such stars and are unlikely to get any in the near term.
Whether it’s management or money or the combo platter, until or unless the locals can get the players who can get the critical calls to always go their way then the Hawks will not be on the receiving end of the Larry O’ Brien trophy anytime soon.
Oh, and thanks I meant Gotak not Borak, whomever that is.
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
11:30 am
I agree Truth. I want to see results from him as well.
Big Ray
May 28th, 2009
11:37 am
Kirk,
So glad you enjoyed the humor!
And thanks for expounding so well on the concept of a GM and coach working so well together. I realize that one is the boss of the other, but both positions are management positions, and more often than not…one cannot do the job of the other. How many coaches make good GMs? How many GMs can do a good job as coaches? Kevin McHale looks like maybe he’s a better coach than he is a GM. Pat Riley excelled (and failed at times) at both. Don Nelson pretty much controls both spots while only working one. A GM needs a good coach, no matter how good he is at talent evaluation. He needs a coach that fits what he wants to do. A coach needs a good GM, as he is the guy who will go out and do what is necessary to get that coach the things he needs.
Bottom line: when organizations have people in those two positions that can larely stay on the same page…they have a good chance at success. Now of course, there are exceptions. If you have two morons running the joint, you have no hope. You can have a GM who is clueless and just does whatever. Meanwhile, his coach is just as clueless, and the chain of bad management continues. But now I’m getting off track here…
I would say that both guys don’t have to be on the same page about every single thing, as both are supposed to be experts in their field, and will have a difference of opinion on some things, which is healthy. But the basic concepts, the basic builing blocks? There has to be some common ground here or it just won’t work.
Why buy new/different/upgraded tools for your mechanic, when all he will do is look at them askance, then turn to other tools (perhaps ones that don’t work as well, or as efficiently) and use them exclusively, instead? On the flip side, how can a mechanic get a job done if the tools you bought for him aren’t the right kind for the job you assigned to him?
Your questions about Sund, and the roster he will be working on, have much merit. Where IS he going with all of this? Like you said, either Woody is part of the scene, or he’s not. It really does make you wonder what Sund has in mind when he begins making his moves. Perhaps we’ll know once he gets some stuff done. And another question is, if any near-future modifications aren’t done for Woody’s benefit, WHO are they being done for?
O’brien,
I’ve often questioned that myself. Why indeed DID Billy hire Woody? I have no clue, as Billy was an enigma on a GOOD day. I guess the bigger question is when did they get to the point where they were NOT on the same page? Since we don’t know when Billy first tried to fire him, there’s no sense in speculating. Reportedly, they did agree (at least to some degree) on not drafting CP3 or Deron. I remember reading that Woody felt that Deron was too slow and overweight, and CP3 was too short and not strong enough. I can’t remember what Billy said. Who knows if he could think past his perpetual hard-on for swingman. All HE needed to hear was “..don’t want either of those top two pgs.” Off to the races after that…
Woody says he has had good meetings with Sund. That would make you think that they are of like mind on at least a few topics/ideas/concepts. But no extension. Heh. Sorry, but that leaves nothing but room for speculation, ya know? Hell, what else do we do around here?
doc
May 28th, 2009
11:38 am
truth, speaks truth, funny you should say the east was weak, even at that the 6ers with a coaching change and the miami rebuilds on two rooks almost caught us.
yup rather be lucky than good.
Big Ray
May 28th, 2009
11:38 am
Melvin,
I have to admit, that visual was funny as hell.
Big Ray
May 28th, 2009
11:46 am
RealSquawk,
I think a lot of teams can see where Josh fits, and where he doesn’t. I don’t think you have to worry about them figuring out that he doesn’t fit so well in a half court system like ours that is heavy on the guard involvement. Not to mention a system that does anything but define individual roles, and modify them as necessary.
Josh certainly has his shortcomings. But there are teams (or perhaps I should add “systems”) where his strengths can be consistently exploited, and his weaknesses scaled back considerably. Between that, his nearly unparalleled athletic ability, and the still lurking potential, he’s got great trade value. The question is, and will always be, what do you get for him that is a better fit for THIS team? And will what you get be around for a while (not one or two years). Will it help you to get better and maintain an even higher level of success?
If it’s out there and can be had (and I think these options DO exist), then I say LET’S GO GET IT!
Then again, if your idea is to keep the “core” of this team intact, then you can stop right there.
The Truth,
Your post at 10:50 was off the chain. Bravo…
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
11:48 am
RealSquawk,
I would say the difference in those guys (minus Harris) and Josh is that Josh has produce and continue to increase his production (excluding this season b/c of his injury) over the years and was one of the most consistent/major contributor for both of the Hawks playoffs appearences. Those other guys did not make the impact on their original team like Josh did…
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
12:25 pm
RealSquawk, much like I believe that Francouer would be well-served by leaving his home town, I do think that Smith would benefit from that too. But don’t get me wrong, I’m not anxious to trade him. I cheer for the Hawks not a single player. Smith would be better served by leaving Atlanta (IMO) but the Hawks may not be better served by trading him. That is very different than my feelings about Acie (at this point). I do think that Acie leaving the Hawks would be beneficial to team and player. Player for obvious reasons and team because presumably, it will force them to idenify another “PG of the future” who is hand-picked by the current GM (and hopefully can earn the support of his teammates).
Lastly, most of us who have lived in different places know the benefit of having that life experience. And those of us who moved away from home know how much it forced a certain growth in our personal lives. So your comment that some of those guys reached another level of performance after a trade is not at all surprising.
Ray, I never would dispute the benefits of having GM and coach in lock-step. I just don’t know that in a very narrow discussion of evaluating Acie, that it is a requirement.
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
1:17 pm
I am the last guy to defend Woody & Sund, but you cannot make a valid argument for overpaying guys that make the minimum salary. You can question putting them on the team, but you have to pay RandMo, Hunter, Gardner, & Mario at least the league minimum which increases with each year of service.
If Woody and Sund do not get on the same page, we all suffer. At some point the plan of most guys with these well paid sports jobs is to try to keep your job especially if you have underperformed.
That helps me to understand how Woody can forget his summer plans for the team by Thanksgiving each year. It goes back to kirkinga’s deal about leaving him dangling in the wind. He has had his last call at the bar glass for 2 going on 3 years.
Sund got here and didn’t want to push for something because he showed up at last call. That made it easy to use his I don’t bid, but I do match strategy for the Joshes last summer. Now that he has been here, he will have to make a stand, but I think he knows that if the roster looks junky to Woody, Sund has a problem given that the ASG have clearly sided with Woody over the years.
Sund doesn’t need to create a good roster–he needs a Woody friendly roster. That way if it doesn’t work, he can successfully do what BK could not…toss Woody under the bus.
The Flip side of the deal is the less happy Woody is with the roster, the more likely Sund sits under the bus and Woody rides on. Continued improvement means improved power for Woody
Looping back, doesn’t that annual tender offer for Josh hang around Sund’s neck like Spirit the Hawk after the big escape? Less cap room and no player to show for it…but get me a good team without being able to use all of your cap space at the start of free agency.
I doubt the Falcons are plotting to throw anyone under the bus, just make moves to get higher on the NFL food chain.
BWAF
jwilli120
May 28th, 2009
1:21 pm
hello everyone what i didn’t hear anyone talk about is how the ASG is
gonna say how much money they lost this year, thus costing us any chance
to sign some of the talent out there that could help us get to the next level, anyone think the ASG is happy with just getting to the second round? To get to the next level it’s gonna cost us( look at the elite
teams payroll) i just don’t see it with this group and this GM( the puppet), Woodson did a great job getting the hawks where we are now i
don’t think he has the ability (coaching ) to coach us to the ELITE
level (ask COY Mike Brown) how hard it is and he has the chosen one
i think the ASG will stand pat and try to cheap us back into the playoffs with what we got, they will say play ACIE we spent alot of money getting him here and he’s riding the pine why should we spent and
lose more money with the economy the way it is, and the fans really didn’t show up until the 2nd round IMO LOL, I just don’t think we will go anywhere until some of the ownership and coaching issues are resolved
IMO, THEY ARE GONNA PULL THE WOOL OVER OUR EYES WATCH AND SEE……
REMOVE THE WOOL FIRST
jwilli120
May 28th, 2009
1:27 pm
Looks like they better put the Labron and Kobe puppets away. Does Dwight
Howard have a puppet ? LOL
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
1:44 pm
Manny, if you’re right (Sund will look to appease Woody), then Sund will likely select players with 1-2 year contracts. Why invest in a lengthy agreement if you’re already thinking about replacing that coach (and introducing a new scheme) the following year? Yet another reason why having a coach with a long-term commitment (regardless of the coach’s name) makes the most sense going into next season.
Tyger
May 28th, 2009
1:59 pm
Hoops, glad you like the new line-up. Hawks would be over the cap, but not pay luxury tax, which is pretty much the status quo.
Sekou – my apologies to Charlie V., he is a long versatile player that can play w/anybody and would be a great addition.
Obrien – good catch, I realized it after hitting the button, but didn’t feel like posting a correction.
2009-2010
PG Jamaal Crawford Flip Murray AC Law
SG Joe Johnson Mo Evans Morris Almond
SF Josh Smith Marvin Williams #19 Terrence Williams
PF Al Horford Drew Gooden Othello Hunter
C ZaZa Pachulia Randolph Morris #49 Garrett Siles
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
2:13 pm
Tyger,
I like that Morris Almond suggestion. He’s the type of talent that a good team will be acquire as a 10-12th guy on the bench. I was very impress with him in the summer leagues. He has a smoothe offensive game and was the odd man out in Utah b/c they were loaded with wing players….
I MUS.WRITE
May 28th, 2009
2:16 pm
Ray….Put the gun down or ill have to call the police-Wait you are the police…HAHAHA
All this dialogue about AC…..Why- he wont be here next year, atleast i hope not.Same ol song and dance….Sorry azz owners -Coach and Gm trying to say the right things to avoid looking like idiots….If they were on the same page AC would have played more as Sund seemed to have a man crush on the guy last summer–
Can a Gm impose his will on a team and demand that a certain player gets time….I’ve never heard anything like that.
I dont know who we can get in free agency when our organization is being run on the cheap-we’ll be lucky to get Flip resigned….Thats a dam shame – same BS is going on -ARE Ya Ready for sum football -I sure am -Go Birds…… Same ol song and dance
ISO JOE………AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
“We just were’nt prepared tonight”
DJ
May 28th, 2009
2:28 pm
I was just thinking if we don’t sign back Mike Bibby who we could sign as a replacement, I thought about this guy.
Jason Kidd.
He could be a free agent this summer. He can rebound,assit, play defense, and score a little bit. Does anyone else agree?
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
2:34 pm
I. MUS.,
About this: “Can a Gm impose his will on a team and demand that a certain player gets time….I’ve never heard anything like that.”
Maybe not about a certain player, but last year when Ed Stefanski took over the 76ers, he apparently ordered Mo Cheeks to “see what he had” in the youngsters on the squad. As a result Thadeus Young, Jason Smith and Louis Williams all got more minutes and the Sixers morphed into the running, athletic squad they have now.
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
2:52 pm
I. MUS, when the GM is talking to a coach with a short contract, yeah, I think he absolutely can influence decisons like playing time. And maybe he did do that. Acie had a nice run last season when he got some decent time and then he came up lame.
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
3:29 pm
Player asset management is a tricky thing when you cannot void contracts like they do in the NFL.
Keep in mind that if the GM does not work to appease the coach when you have to fill 1/2 the roster, he better fill the squad with players that will fit the next coach. So Sund either has to fill the roster to fit Woody or the next guy–who might not take the offer to be the coach. Where would that leave Sund?
It can get messy fast if they do not get their We are the World T-shirts on.
BWAF
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
3:35 pm
Astro Joe,
LOL, When exactly did Acie get some “decent time” last season?
It seemed to me that as soon as he had a good outing, he was not seen for the next several games except in garbage time. But hey, maybe that’s just MY perception, since I thought he was woefully underused.
O'brien
May 28th, 2009
3:47 pm
When Mark Bradley asked Sund about if Woody should get an offensive co-ordinator, he said he leaves it up to the coach. And that seems to be Sund’s MO. He does not tell the coach what kind of team they should be. In fact, Rick Sund said he only focuses on the results. And he was very pleased with the results this year (although there was no talk of an extension).
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
3:53 pm
Sautee, yeah, I went back and looked at the game log. At most, he played 4-5 consecutive games and then disappeared. For some reason, I thought that he had a little 10-12 game streak in there after the ASG, but alas, I was wrong (again). Maybe one of these evenings, I will take the time to summarize his season by DNP-Coaches Decision vs. Injury vs. some playing time. My guess is that he will have about 50 games of some time, 15 DNP-Coaches Decision and 25 DNP-Hurt/Family Issue.
O'brien
May 28th, 2009
4:15 pm
AJ, another thing to keep in mind though is his minutes per game. Sure, he might have gotten some PT in some games, but if all he got was 3 minutes at the end, then that information will be inconclusive. Like you said, it will take some time though.
As far as payroll goes, for the Hawks to get to the level they/we want, they have to go over the salary cap (but stay away from luxury tax of course). Going into next year, Hoopshype has their payroll at $40.9 million (including Marvin’s tender, but not including Chills).
E43
May 28th, 2009
5:01 pm
im really excited about the hawks because i know that there WILL be an upgrade due to the 3 year 20million dollar salary offered to childress is still out there. i understand that the price was cut down due to the arrival of flip+mo but bibby has a good chance of staying and taking less money. all due respect bibby is a great PG but teams are not willing to pay for a depreciating PG, i think hell take less money to stay than to leave. im very hopefull for the hawks. im for childress coming back his fro does a number on opposing teams offenses at least his fro looked like a stanford fro rather than the gangsta detroit version of ben wallace.LOL
E43
May 28th, 2009
5:04 pm
Sautee
i agree he was underused but thats the same as many other hawks players. not to name any names but some of them didnt notch a 48 minutes of playing time all season.
E43
May 28th, 2009
5:11 pm
LouHudaon
nice post at your one of very few people that have come up with something reasonable that doesnt involve trading everyone and everything including up to jerious norwood
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
5:12 pm
O’brien, true, you’d have to choose a baseline, like at least 10 minutes or something like that. Maybe it will be a weekend project, rather work on that than paint my garage.
But the other thing is that because of Flip, Acie almost became the 4th PG on the team. Bibby/Joe/Flip/Acie was likely the practical depth chart for that position. Bibby/Joe/Flip could all take turns playing either the 1 or 2 with each other and I don’t think that anyone can question that those 3 were better options than Acie. I say that because in those games when Acie may have only played 5 minutes, it is not likely that Bibby played 43 minutes. More likely, Flip and Joe receive minutes at the PG position (maybe 4 minutes each) which would have left Bibby playing closer to 35 minutes (which was pretty much his average).
RealSquawk
May 28th, 2009
5:18 pm
Melvin,
Those guys also really didn’t get to play much either, but you might have been saying that.
Astro Joe, I very much agree with all of that. I wasn’t saying Josh needs to be traded I would much rather have a coaching change and to keep the current roster. now addressing the point guard of the future talk, it is not really useful until woody is gone because I haven’t really seen a young point guard woody will play.
Knight gave him three chances. Royal Ivey and average due exactly what I am asked point guard.
Salim Stoudamire small sized shooter with a competitive side. He definitely adjusted to woody and did what he was told in those later seasons. He still didn’t play.
Acie Law is a combination of the two. He is bigger and a better defender than i thought. He can shoot and penetrate.
This is a big what if, but do you really think we could sing Chris paul’s praises or deron Williams if they were playing for Woody. THEY would have been sitting just like the rest and those are two of the best point guards in the league.
If we simply retained are current pieces (Zaza, Bibby, and Flip and MARVIN) and brought up David Anderson and josh Childress then we would have a pretty competitive team.
Either way everything is going to be harder for us next year we aren’t coming off some big grand stand we are coming off being SWEPT out of the playoffs from a team that was almost SWEPT out of the playoffs
This is that NEXT year where we see what everybody is made of. Does the coach adjust. do the players come ready? Is everything in order before training camp?
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
5:55 pm
EJ43,
You are correct, but Acie’s the only lottery pick among them.
Two words: asset management.
From that aspect, I don’t think anyone’s worried about guys we’re paying minimum salary to.
darrell starks
May 28th, 2009
6:05 pm
I couldnt never understand woodson philosophy it didnt make much sense to me on why woody never brought in acie to replace bibby at the point and bring in flip at big guard to replace joe and not let him play so many min during the year.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MannyT
May 28th, 2009
6:06 pm
Not that this reflects on his ability to be a GM, but I was surprised when I saw it. I am pretty confident that BK would not do this. I’d be surprised if Sund did it. It is a way to play nice with the fan base.
From Ed Stefanski, last season.
http://blog.nj.com/sixersshots/2008/06/from_the_desk_of_ed_stefanski.html
I mention Sefanski for two reasons–the Sixers have been in a similar place to the Hawks during the past 2 seasons, and he has a roster on the rise if he can find a reasonable replacement for his aging free agent PG.
As a season ticket holder, the most positive thing I have heard about Sund in a year is that he is more media friendly than BK. Unless I missed one of the special events, his visibility to season ticket holders was less than BK this season. That was supposedly due to an elevator malfunction.
I look forward to the Sund excitement this summer. He’s got a lot of work to do.
BWAF
BrittishAnger
May 28th, 2009
6:07 pm
GLW,
I can see some of what you’re talking about with the Cav’s series, since we probably only had 10 Fast Break points in all four games (maybe 15, but I’m giving it the benefit of the doubt), but since Lebron and squad used that technique against us, and unless we were hoping for a classic Phoenix Suns styled playoff series (one where both teams scored over a hundred each game), our only hope of slowing them down was to have a better half-court design to combat it, which we didn’t. I do like our team when they get out and run, but you can’t rely on one tactic to compete in this league, and the nights when we couldn’t get out and run (playoff and regular season games) helped prove that Sund’s thinking on the 50-50 mix is the right way to go. In a retreat from the player side of the game, I’ve heard plenty of folks talk about bringing in an offensive coordinator to help draw some new plays into the fold and get things out of the stagnant “Run it through Joe” schemes we have now. The only thing I wish, and it’s something the league needs to consider to help the game grow around the world as much as at home, is inter-league play in the offseason, not just for championship teams but especially for some of the lower rung teams who need some extra chemistry (and the Hawks could use it just as well as Boston did during their pre-championship summer). Give me a legit 10 deep team next year with some new offensive schemes, and we’ll have a far more manageable time in the first round, and hopefully not get pwned in the second….
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
6:14 pm
Astro Joe,
Saved you the time. Here’s what Acie averaged in the 12 games where he played at least 15 minutes (which Ray and I were both begging for).
7.2 points, 2.4 rebounds, and an excellent 3.1 assists to 0.75 turnovers. (better than 4/1 assist / TO ratio)
Now you can paint that garage!
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
6:26 pm
I still marvel at the people who bash Sund for the way he handled Chill/Mo/Flip. All right – what would you have done differently? Sign Chill to a contract that no other NBA team was willing to pay? Sign Flip to a contract he’d never accept (read: No way Flip would have signed a 3-year deal at just $1.5-2M)? And are you seriously saying that Mo isn’t worth 2 years at $2.5M (barely 40% of the mid-level)?
This team improved by 10 games with the payroll remaining essentially the same. What results were you expecting? An NBA title, just 1 year after we won 37 games? Will you not give the man credit unless he trades Acie Law for Chris Paul (”Judas for Jesus,” with a hat tip to MannyT) and signs LeBron James for the minimum salary? I’m only being half-facetious. What standard of success are you holding Sund to if “10-win improvement while keeping payroll constant” does not satisfy you?
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
6:54 pm
Nire,
I would have felt differently if Sund had offered even a low-ball offer to Chills BEFORE sending him out to “look” for an offer for the Hawks to match. It’s a matter of being proactive and not reactive. We had done that ALREADY with Josh Smith. It would have sent a totally different message to Chills. Perhaps if he felt respected, even if he disagreed with the amount of the offer, then some middle ground could have been found.
Isn’t that what the Falcons are doing? Being proactive?
O'brien
May 28th, 2009
8:09 pm
We really dont know (for sure) how the negotiations between Sund and Chills started, plus Sund was the new Man on the block, so I will give him a pass last offseason. This time, he had one whole year to evaluate (coach and players), so he needs to make his imprint on the team.
Sautee, I think those numbers from Acie are pretty good based. In 35 mpg, Bibby only averaged 5 assists, 3.5 rebounds (compared to 3 assists and 2.5 rebounds). I know that Acie played against mostly bench players, but still. 2 years in, and we still dont know exactly what kind of player he will be. Keep in mind that he won the Bob Cousy award (best PG in college) his senior year, so all these PG’s people have the Hawks drafting (at 19), who knows how they’re going to turn out, especially playing for Woody.
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
8:22 pm
I’ve seen a lot of people around here say that Chill wouldn’t have left unless he felt disrespected. I think that’s BS. He didn’t go out seeking the Greek offer. The Greeks came to him, and for good reason – they knew that no American team would be willing to offer what they would. To match what the Greeks gave him, we would have had to pay him close to $9M/yr (since the Greek team pays his taxes, something an American team obviously couldn’t do). There was no way he was staying here for less than $7M/yr, and probably no way he’d have stayed for less than $7.5M.
And in any case, the Hawks DID make him an offer, which Childress rejected as too low. So you still haven’t answered my question: Why should we have overpaid to keep him if Sund thought we could get the same production or (as it turned out) better while spending less money?
And again, there’s no way the Mo signing was in panic. As I said, deals don’t happen in less than 36 hours, which was the time between the finalizing of Chill’s contract to play in Greece and the finalizing of the signing of Mo.
Also, the signing of Flip was not blind or lucky. Every NBA GM worth his salt knows that there will be a dozen or so decent rotation players lying around in mid-August. It happens every single year. And it’s not too hard in mid-July to look around the free agent market and figure out who it’ll be. It happened to Jim Jackson 4 or 5 times, Gary Payton in 2005, Donyell Marshall a couple times, etc. So even if Sund didn’t know that Flip specifically would still be available in mid-August (although given the fact that he played under Sund in Seattle already, you gotta figure Flip was at least on Sund’s radar), he knew he would be able to get a guy like Flip at Flip’s price.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
8:31 pm
O’Brien,
I think if Acie had hit a higher percentage of his jumpers when he was on the court, Woody would have trusted him a little more. So some of it definitely is on Acie.
His situation was exacerbated by the fact that Flip could give Woody minutes at the 1. Unfortunately for the TEAM, when Flip played the 1, he turned the ball over too much, and it robbed him of his natural aggressiveness on offense.
It was not until the Miami playoff series that Flip found the right balance while playing the 1. And by then he HAD to, because Acie was out with his back.
I still feel confident that if Woody had suffered through Acie’s shooting woes, we’d now have a “better than most” backup point who will only get better as he goes. Personally I hope we keep him, but if not, we MUST address the future at PG this summer.
Status quo on that issue has the potential to doom the team in 2011 and beyond.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
8:40 pm
Niremetal,
So let me get this straight. You’re saying that Sund knew in advance that he didn’t want Chills, and was already negotiating with Mo’s agent BEFORE Chills offer was made public?
If THAT’S the case, why not approach Chills early on and say “this is not your optimum place to be, and we’re going to look for a sign-and-trade? If that happened BEFORE the Greeks came a callin’, perhaps we’d have Barbosa, or another asset instead of nada.
You were asking how else, so tell us, if YOU were Sund in that situation, what would YOU have done to not waste a lottery pick?
Which IS what looks like will happen. A wasted asset.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
8:45 pm
Nire,
about this also: “And in any case, the Hawks DID make him an offer, which Childress rejected as too low. ”
Relative to the Greek offer, yes. But had we offered something around the MLE before the season ended, who knows? At THAT point, he wouldn’t have had anything to compare that offer to. Maybe his agent would have told him he was crazy, BUT, this was the only organization he’s ever known. You never know, but I’d rather see us be proactive in every situation, rather than p!ss away an asset.
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
8:50 pm
Sautee, good stuff. But I’ll be breaking down Mario West’s defensive impact before I get to that garage.
Manny, that’s a great marketing ploy that Stefanski is doing with season-ticketholders. You may recall that the ASG fired their Marketing guru. I personally doubt that Stefanski came up wth that idea by himself. Sounds like someone fixated on retaining customers, and one would hope that the GM has other things on his plate, like hiring a head coach (and the 76ers Marketing genius is worried about reducing churn). Anyway, that’s pretty cool.
RealSquawk
May 28th, 2009
8:52 pm
yeah so I am going to go out on a limb and say that the refs are being a little preferential. And hmmm. maybe Z should get a technical. maybe
RealSquawk
May 28th, 2009
8:52 pm
just a little not much though
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
9:04 pm
Sautee,
1) We were not allowed to offer him anything between October 31, 2007 and July 1, 2008.
2) I would have tried to sign-and-trade him if the deal would have brought anything significant. But anyone who said that the Suns offered Barbosa or anyone comparable is lying out of their a$$. If the deal would have forced us to take on a bad contract in return or player(s) we couldn’t use, I wouldn’t have done it. Same if the trade brought us a player like Raja Bell, who might crack the rotation, but why take on his $5M/2yr contract when we could get Flip for $1.5M and be just as well off? Making a trade under those circumstances would just be worse than letting him go for nothing.
The press reports said that there were a few sign-and-trade offers involving Chill that were discussed. But keep in mind that WE aren’t the only ones who make the decision on a sign-and-trade. Childress has to agree to the deal too. My guess is that no team made an offer that both 1) paid Childress enough to make it worth it for him to stay; and 2) gave us something of positive value. Beyond that, I admit that I have no proof, except for the fact that Sund got us what we needed to be successful for this year, so I assume he didn’t turn off his phone when he got feasible trade offers.
Under the circumstances, I would have done exactly what I suspect Sund did – offered Chill as much as he was worth to us. If that wasn’t good enough for him and he couldn’t get better from another NBA team, I would have let him walk.
It’s not a “wasted asset” if there was no way the asset could have positive value for us. Signing Childress to a $7M or more contract would have put us over the luxury cap threshold AND strapped us to the deck on the free agent market for the next 4-5 years. Under those circumstances, there was no feasible alternative that would have made the team better off.
So I’m still waiting. Someone tell me a feasible alternative. If you can’t, then just say that the NBA free agency and salary cap rules are stupid. Don’t bash Sund for not making trades that couldn’t have happened or not signing contracts that no NBA team would have signed.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
9:20 pm
Nire,
I DO realize that Sund was not here until after the season ended, but I was speaking of the organization (read: BASG) needing to be proactive. I think Billy knew he was a lame duck at that point, so perhaps that led to a laissez faire attitude in his last days.
At any rate, if it was clear to Sund that he had no need / want for Chills, why not take that bull by the horns, and let him know (he!l, get him on board) that a sign-and trade was in the works?
By the way Sund had publicly said that his intention was to re-sign both Joshes, so that doesn’t exactly gibe with negotiating with Mo PRIOR to the Greek offer now does it?
Surely he’s not THAT devious?
O'brien
May 28th, 2009
9:26 pm
niremetal, at the time, I dont think Sund knew that Flip would be available, so I think he got lucky in that regards. Sure, he probably had his eye on Mo Evans, but I think Mo was about to sign with Golden State. To get him to come to the Hawks, Sund offered him 2 years (with a player option for the 3rd year) at $2.5 mil. Do we really want Mo Evans for 3 years? How many impact plays has Mo Evans made (offensively or defensively)?
We still dont know if Chills really wanted to come back and play for Woody (because Chills said he had no chance at starting). And we dont know what those offers for Chills were. All we know is that Sund told Chills to go out and get a better offer, and he did.
I would have loved to have all 3; Chills, Mo Evans, and Flip. Either way, Sund has to make some early moves this time around (be proactive) and not be reactive like he was last year.