Wanted: Role Players!
Frontcourt help like Charlie Villanueva could make a huge difference for the Hawks in the future.
HAWKSVILLE – I know that the NBA hype machine would have you believe that the NBA playoffs is basically a test of wills between Kobe Bryant and LeBron James.
If you let the networks tell it, we’re all just bearing witness to the crowning of the king or the validation of KB24’s reign as the heir to his Airness.
Count Magic superstar center and Atlanta native Dwight Howard among those who have heard just about enough. And the AJC’s own Jeff Schultz isn’t far behind Howard in the enough is enough line.
The only problem with all the Kobe/LeBron fuss is that arguably the two most critical guys on the floor thus far in these outstanding Eastern and Western Conference finals have been Lakers’ swingman Trevor Ariza and Orlando Magic super sub Mickael Pietrus.
As well Bryant, James, Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Pau Gasol, Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu and all the other major players have played during certain stretches, Ariza and Pietrus have been just as, if not more important to their team’s efforts.
Ariza’s made two game-clinching plays to seal wins for the Lakers, both defensive gems on inbounds plays. And Pietrus has not only been a lights out shooter against the Cavs, he’s played James as well defensively as any player I’ve seen in the last three seasons – and that includes defensive stalwarts Ron Artest and Bruce Bowen.
Now I’ll admit that my theory could be the product of viewing way too much playoff basketball the past month and counting, or an excessive amount of fumes to the dome from a long weekend spent over the top of my grill. But it seems like the contributions of these two role players will have as much to do with who plays in the NBA Finals as any singular effort from a superstar for any of the four teams remaining in this postseason.
Which brings me to our favorite topic ‘round these parts … the Hawks and their roster in need of major surgery this summer (more on that below).
Folks keep telling me about who needs to go to make this team better. And I keep thinking about what they need to add to this group to get better.
The Hawks need guys like Ariza and Pietrus to complete what they started with last year’s playoff appearance and continued this season with their Eastern Conference semifinal appearance.
Flip Murray and Mo Evans qualify, as does Zaza Pachulia. But of the three, only Evans is guaranteed to be in a Hawks uniform in the fall. Not only do the Hawks need to find ways to keep Murray and Pachulia in the fold, they need to find more guys like them (or better).
That’s where the Hawks greatest improvement will come next season (save a blockbuster trade), in the sum of their parts. And those parts have to improve down the roster.
Can you imagine the Hawks with an explosive scoring power forward like Charlie Villanueva (a restricted free agent this summer with a bit of a Twitter habit) or Chris Wilcox (another free agent this summer) coming off of their bench? And not as a replacement for Pachulia but as a running mate. That’s the kind of addition that helps recast the Hawks for next season.
If you’re serious about keeping the core together and still improving your roster, which is the theme we’ve heard from the Hawks non-stop since they were swept out of the playoffs.
DRAFT CHATTER is the favorite topic of many this time of year, and for good reason.
Draftniks everywhere have man-crushes on Spanish sensation Ricky Rubio ...
Spanish point guard phenom Ricky Rubio is the guy generating the most attention in the draft, for reasons good and apparently bad, per some folks.
The fine folks at TrueHoop did a bang up job detailing the luster and the risk of a player like Rubio, who is universally regarded as the best point guard “prospect” to come out of Europe in some time, and perhaps ever.
My most trusted source on all things Rubio is Lang Whitaker of SLAM Magazine, who has been on the Rubio bandwagon for years now. He’s the first person I can remember having seen Rubio play in person. And as best I can remember, he was the first writer to travel to Spain to interview and write about Rubio. So I’m going on his word that Rubio is going to be a star in the NBA.
“He is,” Whitaker said by phone Tuesday morning from his New York office. “The thing with Rubio is … did you see the gold medal game? He played great against Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Jason Kidd. I don’t know who else you want to see him against to convince you that he’s going to be a star.”
Lang doesn’t have to convince me. I’m willing to play along with the international charade as long as the player is as talented as Rubio (and I did watch the gold medal game. Rubio made some nice plays but he wasn’t what stood out to me).
But not everyone I’ve talked to is convinced.
“I’d much rather have Derrick Rose,” one Eastern Conference executive told me by phone Tuesday morning. “And it’s not even close in my eyes. Don’t get me wrong, Rubio is talented. He might have tons of potential. But seriously, how many times have we said that about one of these young kids and then he gets over here and we find out there are all these things about his game that just don’t add up in the NBA? That’s what worries me about Rubio. We’ve seen glimpses of him against NBA competition. It’s just like when you watch Rudy Fernandez and Linas Kleiza look unstoppable in international play and then they get to the NBA season and you realize it’s a totally different game. Rubio is going to find the same issues where his game is concerned.”
How that’s different from any other college player/prospect is beyond me. I mean, who knew Rose would be so good from the start? Actually, lots of people expected it. In fact, that’s what led the draft debate last year between Rose and Michael Beasley. There doesn’t seem to be the same sort of debate between the point guard and power forward this year (I’ve heard very few people discuss let alone advocate taking Rubio over Blake Griffin).
... while others wonder if he's even in the same class as a transcendent talent like Chicago's own Derrick Rose.
“A much better gauge is a guy who has dominated in Europe and then comes over here at the top of his game, like Pau Gasol did, like Manu Ginobili did and Luis Scola did,” the Eastern Conference exec continued.” They showed up ready to play because they weren’t just prospects, they were established players and really stars over there. The bottom line is this, the way you develop young players here and in Europe is vastly different. And it doesn’t always work best for young international players over here.”
An unabashed Hawks fan, Lang barked at me over a week ago about what he wants to see his hometown team do with the 19th pick in the June draft.
His email from last week:
Rick Sund’s last three first round picks? Robert Swift, Saer Sene and Johan Petro.
I really hope the Hawks draft Toney Douglas from FSU. We need to get his name out there. Dude can shoot, drives all the time, can play the 1 and 2 and was ACC defensive player of the year. And he’s from Jonesboro. I don’t understand why more people aren’t talking about him. Coach K said this at the ACC Tournament: ”He’s my favorite non-Duke player in the country. I love that guy. I talk about him a lot to our guys. They’re probably mad at me. He’s as good as there is in college.”
THE HAWKS AREN’T THE ONLY TEAM IN THE SOUTHEAST DIVISION stuck in point guard limbo with the draft and free agency fast approaching. The team the Hawks vanquished in the first round of the playoffs is in a similar predicament, though the Miami Heat already have one proven building block in Mario Chalmers.
My main man Mike Wallace of the Miami Herald points out as much in his latest blog, shouting out Hawks point guards past and present in the process:
And it makes you wonder. Why does every other team in the league seem to have a spare Flip Murray on the roster, yet the Heat goes two seasons without one? Shaun Livingston didn’t have the legs. Marcus Banks lacked the skills. And Penny Hardaway – dare we say – didn’t have anything left other than pleasant memories of when he used to be somebody in this league.
This Magic-Cavs series is stocked with serviceable, stop-gap type veteran parts at the point that Miami either tried to get and couldn’t, parted with too soon or probably should have pursued harder when it had the chance.
Orlando has three of them: Rafer Alston, Anthony Johnson and Tyronn Lue.
How crazy would it be to see the Magic make the NBA Finals with two point guards (Johnson and Lue for those of you who have just recently joined us here in Hawksville) the Hawks shipped out of town to get Mike Bibby on their roster?
Might Jonesboro's Toney Douglas be an option for the Hawks with the 19th pick in the June NBA Draft? It's an intriguing idea, courtesy of Lang Whitaker of SLAM Magazine.
And depending on what happens in July, Bibby could be joining them as ex-Hawks point guards.
The Hawks, of course, are in need of a starting material at the point. And that might come in the form of Bibby, if the Hawks can find a way to reel him back in from the free agent waters with the right deal, or someone else.
Speaking of Bibby, the good folks at Hawksquawk, threw some great questions my way about the team and where things might be headed. And as you can probably imagine, Bibby’s name came up several times.
We’ve discussed Bibby endlessly around here, so won’t go into detail about the tenor of the conversation they are having about him elsewhere. But I’ll share this one question and answer (and suggest you check out the rest of it on their site (which is pretty impressive, by the way):
Q. Was there a change in the locker-room demeanor since the addition of Bibby? Did he bring a playoff presence to the Hawks team? Is there any urgency (or perceived urgency) to resign Flip?
A. Bibby assumed a leadership position automatically, which is what the Hawks needed. He eased the pressure on Joe and Woodson as well, which needed to happen. And more than a playoff presence he brought a sense of accountability to the locker room, which was lacking before his arrival. He was the right personality and player at just the right time for the Hawks. It was almost like he added that “why not us?” factor to this team that wasn’t there before, a sense of they could do some things with him that didn’t really seem possible until he showed up. Flip proved invaluable this season and while I wouldn’t call it urgency, there’s certainly a need to make sure Flip is kept in the fold.
WITH SO MANY ROSTER QUESTIONS TO DEAL WITH THIS SUMMER it’s hard for me to imagine the Hawks’ brass taking too many days off between now and late July.
I know they’ve begun their predraft workouts, which unlike in years past are not open to the media. And the scaled down predraft camp has moved back to Chicago from Orlando this summer. It begins this week and runs into this weekend.
As far as the Hawks’ individual workouts, I’m not sure there will be much to talk about anyway. Astro Joe emailed a little while ago wondering if they’d begun and whether or not I’d seen anything worth talking about. I promptly relayed the story to him of Al Horford’s workout two years ago that left quite a few people scratching their heads as to what all the fuss was about.
Billy Knight went 1-for-2 (so far) in the first round of his last draft with the Hawks.
Had the Hawks based their pick in that year’s draft on the workout alone, Horford might not have been the choice (luckily for us all Billy Knight stuck to his “gimme the best power forward type I can get at this spot” guns and made the right call).
Different teams value different things in the predraft process. Some want to see what a guy looks like on the hoof or how he tests out in various drills that have little or nothing to do with why you’d want a guy on your team.
Others want to see if he interviews a certain way, wanting to make sure they’re adding the right type of guy to their team. Me, I need to know a guy can play. And I’m positive I can tell more from watching him play in games than I can from anything he’ll do in a scripted workout.
But that doesn’t mean I won’t relay what I’m hearing leading up to the draft. After all, this is easily one of the Hawks’ most critical summers in a string of huge ones. What they do in the draft and free agency basically determines if they’re going to stay among the upper echelon of the Eastern Conference or slide back down to the playoff purgatory waters that they bathed in for years.
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657 comments Add your comment
MannyT
May 27th, 2009
6:37 pm
I’m one of the last folks to go against Larry Coon. Until there is evidence otherwise, I’ll go with Childress and Sund are locked at the RFA hip until further notice…no matter how much they might not like it.
MEA CULPA.
Chills has to go through Sund to get back in the NBA at some point (assuming Sund stays in Atlanta). Sund has to keep tendering Chills and living with that oversized cap hold charge during free agency until Chills returns.
Unless there is a loophole, they both get bent over the fiscal barrel by the basic rules…and so do we. ouch.
BWAF
niremetal
May 27th, 2009
6:39 pm
Yeah, I doubt Childress is coming back here too. I bet that this is the last season that the Hawks choose to make a tender offer, ESPECIALLY if they don’t extend JJ (in which case, they’ll need the $5.5M in extra cap room next summer to sign a free agent). In that sense, he’s a “lost asset,” although I still fail to see any other feasible way the Hawks could have handled the Childress situation that would have improved the team.
girly boy (post-op)
May 27th, 2009
6:52 pm
All this trade talk gives me the giggles! Just trade Joe Johnson, hire Avery Johnson, and make a deal with Beelzebub to bring Bosh to Atlanta.
freshd
May 27th, 2009
7:02 pm
If MEMPHIS drafts THABEET, I say trade AC LAW and a future pick to get MARC GASOL to help bang on the inside.
Blair Rausmussen
May 27th, 2009
7:14 pm
How About Kyle Lorver as a RFA? Help spread the floor and we desperatley need a shooter!!
Blair Rausmussen
May 27th, 2009
7:15 pm
Missed the K!
BrittishAnger
May 27th, 2009
7:32 pm
My answer for what our off-season needs to be like would be very manageable if we could just drop the albatross’ from around our neck and look at what we have rather than what we hold rights to. Our rights to David Andersen and Josh Childress are worthless to us and are effectively blocks towards making effective use of the salary cap space we have (neither of them is coming back any time soon…just give it up already and bury the hatchet where it lies). Speedy Claxton is the only other immediate player whose contract needs nullifying: buy him out and let him find a nice NBADL team to run with until he retires into obscurity for good. I think our core can be kept, even if they’re all one year deals with team options behind them, but even then our core is only 8 deep, nine maybe counting Acie Law if you aren’t me and like Flip backing Bibby far better than Acie as the backup, so we do need to strengthen our core. If Sund believes, truly believes, we are a 50-50 Fast-break/Half-court team, then we need two squads to ensure that, one like our starting five is now (fast break with some half court skills), and something like Beaubois (French PG who Bibby could train up easier than Acie)/Flip/Mo/Zaza/Mullens which would become the half-court slowdown set with some transition/fast break skills. Bibby won’t take a serious decline in pay, but getting rid of those worthless contracts gives us some room to resign him while taking the age into , and nobody else on the squad should really be looking for a serious increase in pay, keeping our team pretty much the way it was. I do wish we could get some better Euro Prospects to fill out our team, even some South American options on the floor (we are in Atlanta, and last I checked our unofficial second language is Spanish), but short of bringing Wilcox over or finding some unchecked center who can fill that role, ignore the PG problem for one more year by bringing Bibby back, open up some options, and make a better B-Team to keep the rotations fresh (We need to limit Joe Johnson’s minutes next year anyways or risk blowing him out before he’s really at his peak).
BrittishAnger
May 27th, 2009
7:34 pm
Correction/Edit
****Bibby won’t take a serious decline in pay, but getting rid of those worthless contracts gives us some room to resign him while taking his age into account, and nobody…***
Astro Joe
May 27th, 2009
7:45 pm
Ray, I’m not sure why a boss and employee need to be on the same page for the boss to tell the employee to play a talented player. My point had nothing to do with rather or not their families get together for Sunday dinner, just that the head coach likely can’t hide a potential contributor in the dungeon of the arena/stadium. And the notion that Woody potentially is NOT on the same page as his bosses (past and present) reinforces my assumption that he must be making the right call on Acie.
Tyger, you may have missed the fact that the Magic have won something like 9 of the last 12 games against the Cavs going back a few years.
LouHudaon
May 27th, 2009
7:48 pm
First of all, the Chris Bosh love afare has to stop. He’s a nice player, but his teams have never made it past the first round. He’s a great regular season guy, but he’s too soft to be a different maker in the playoff. Next, JSmoove and/or Horford will not be traded, period. A S & T involving Marvin with a bench player is the only option to receive a big man worth getting. Kaman or Pryszilla are the likely options. Their teams already have a big man and they want to reduce their payrolls. The Hawks must without question get a defensive persence in the lane. ZaZa is a good offense center who can rebound on the offensive end. However, it is unlikely he can be resigned if one of the afore mentioned players comes to the Atlanta. Solo will be resigned as the backup center(cheap). This opens the door for Chills possible return. The big men and forwards rotation will make for an extremely good defensive group.
Next resign Flip (3yr/9-12mil), Joe and Flip are your scoring options with some outside shooting from Evans. Offer Bibby 3yr/15-18mil if he refuses let him go sign Jarrett Jack. Make a decision about Law’s future. This will determine your selection(19th pick) for a Big, scorer, or point guard. These moves keep the Hawks way under the cap and prepared them for next off season signings. The rest of the roster are all developmental players(cheap)anyway.
Finally, GM Sund and Coach Woody futures will be determined based on Sund off season moves and Woody’s choice to coach for a championship or a job.
Go Hawks!
Tyger
May 27th, 2009
8:02 pm
Ramon Sessions is a 17% 3pt shooter. And Charlie V doesn’t have any eyebrows. I’m not sure they can help us.
O'brien
May 27th, 2009
8:04 pm
For the record, Sund has been on record twice saying that he liked Acie. He said that last year when he came here, and he said that to Mark Bradley a couple weeks ago. He agreed that he inherited Acie (did not pick him), but he also said he liked how Acie was playing before the injury.
Tyger, I agree with some of your comments. One correction though. The Hawks playoff record is 7 wins, 11 losses, which is actually 39% (not 64%).
glw
May 27th, 2009
8:06 pm
BrittishAnger,
I agree with much of what you have to say, especially about the halfcourt/fastbreak mix. What hurt us most in our series against the Cavs is we didnt get out and run enough. I know the old saying, is defense wins championships, but its strange how it seems 3 of the 4 teams still playing are known more for their offense. I think maybe teams have realized that because defense wins championships, improved offensive execution, getting out running on fast breaks creating easy scoring oppourtunities gives you a chance to counter the strong defensive teams. The Hawks did it last year against Boston and came close. I like having Bibby back next year, but I’d love to see a younger pg (Law, Sessions, Jack, 1st rounder), running with JSmoove, Marvin, and Horford. Then when we need that half court game we still have the Bibby/Johnson pick and roll option.
Also, I love Childress and was worried after he went to Greece, but I feel Flip/Mo did an excellent job of replacing him. So if he wants to stay in Greece or whatever, so be it. I dont care if we lose rights or not if their is someone else that would make the team better. And wing players come a dime a dozen in this league.
I have heard a lot of people say sign and trade Marvin, but is such a deal like that possible? sign and trade can only work with a team that has cap space to sign him, and that is only a couple of teams. So, I would think that scenario is unlikely.
ILL-logical
May 27th, 2009
8:13 pm
Role players? The current Hawks team can’t establish their own roles other than rebound ,set picks and pass the ball to Joe. We are getting a little ahead of ourselves with any discussions of trades or FA ’s until it is clearly established what type of team the Hawks are and in that context what is everyone’s role.
Case in point: Martine Borat has impressed me with his play in the Cavaliers series.He will be a free agent July 1 and presently makes about $700 K. Would his skill set improve the Hawks; would his knowaledge of Dwight Howard be helpful and would his cost be prohibitve? Yes,yes and no. but if he signed here would he start? Why would he want to sit on the bench here when he could be a bench player for the World champs?
And if he does start, who sits and what type of offensive and defensive schemes are employed? Will Woodson change his approach with a talented big on the roster who can run the floor and defend the post?
And there is that chemistry thing. Will his talent mesh with the team’s? My point is that there are a number of variables involved in putting all the pieces in place but the priorities and the key players to meet them have to come first, then we can talk about role players.
Labraun's Pixie Dust
May 27th, 2009
8:18 pm
Borat? Do you mean Gortat? I love for Sund to bring him to Atlanta!
In other news, the league did the right thing and rescinded that technical on Dwight Howard. One of many bad calls last night.
Blast
May 27th, 2009
8:20 pm
Y’all remember Jon Barry saying back then that Orlando will only win one game against Cleveland in the West finals? Ha, ha, ha, ha! Smart insight, Mr. analyst know nothing Jon Barry! How do you feel now?
Blast
May 27th, 2009
8:25 pm
How many techs has the league rescinded so far in the playoffs? Goes to show how woefull the officating has been, and the league office knows it. By rescinding those techs, you’re basically saying your refs made a terrible call….Again.
Labraun's Pixie Dust
May 27th, 2009
8:33 pm
Blast: Co-sign.
RealSquawk
May 27th, 2009
8:34 pm
If going off the measurements I used to decide whether or not Flip would be a good signing Charlie V would be great.
Basically what I did was think about how Flip played against the Hawks. He torched us every time he was unstoppable and unfriendly to the point where he caused us to loose games.
Charlie V didn’t cause us to loose games, but he sure does go off when he plays us.
Charlie V would be great and he would more replace the void of soon to be traded Josh Smith.
(maybe not)
DJ
May 27th, 2009
8:34 pm
I’ve always liked Charlie V. He is a good player. Every part of his game is ok or good. His defense is OK. Offense is good, he can back you down in the lane or he can shoot a three right over your head. He would e an awesome back-up to Josh Smith or maybe even try starting him at the Small-Forward position. THE HAWKS NEED HIM.
The free agents we need to re-sign are obvious. Flip and ZaZa. If we get Charlie V. than there is no need to get another scorer. ZaZa is NEEDED, whenever ZaZa came in the crowd was into it and he was a good player. He is one of the best offensive rebounders in the league.
I think we should do a sign and trade with marvin william and Acie law. for a good center or a point guard. Maybe a Marc Gasol or a Raymond Felton.
Blast
May 27th, 2009
9:45 pm
I can’t believe how much the refs are trying to help LA win tonite in game 5. It’s just incredible. Lakers playing well, Denver playing decent, but Denver should be able to pull off the win despite the refs.
Melvin
May 27th, 2009
10:30 pm
Good thing the Magic didn’t lose by 1 pt last night. Especially since Stern and his boys rescinded the techical foul call. In order words, the Cavs should have never been allow the opportunity to score that 1 pt from the free throwline. Now that I think deeper about the situation, maybe the Magic would have won the game during regulation instead of Lebron shooting two free throws to send the game into overtime….hmmmm
darrell starks
May 27th, 2009
10:49 pm
Lou hudson are you kidding me about bosh if you bring bosh to the hawks he will be your best player on the team if you think that BIBBY, JOE, MARVIN, JOSH, HORFORD can get the job done then we are in for a long season specially with the WIZARDS, BUCKS, SIXERS, PACERS, NETS, BULLS,AND BOBCATS where injured most of the year in a water down eastern conf.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sekou Smith
May 27th, 2009
10:54 pm
Charlie V has a medical condition Tyger, so there’s a reason for his eyebrow-free look. Take it easy on him man. And we’re probably jumping the gun on a ton of stuff around here (but hey, that’s what we do). I think a lot can change in the free agent game this summer depending on who opts out, who decides to agree to an extension this summer rather than playing the waiting game for the summer of 2010 and who gambles and loses in free agency and then has to scramble to make things right late in the summer. And that’s not counting what goes on before, during and around the draft. So much can change between now and July 15.
niremetal
May 27th, 2009
11:36 pm
Not-so-subtle spike in number of fouls called against the Nuggets in the past 5 minutes. Hmph.
Melvin
May 27th, 2009
11:42 pm
Kmart looks like it was closed for business tonight…
Big Ray
May 27th, 2009
11:43 pm
Astro Joe,
“Ray, I’m not sure why a boss and employee need to be on the same page for the boss to tell the employee to play a talented player.”
I’m not sure either. WTF are you talking about?
WTF? Why do you always take things to the exaggerated extreme? Who said anything about ANYBODY getting together for Sunday dinner? MY point was that Dimitroff and Smith have a relationship that is nothing like what we SEEM to see with Woody and his boss, both past and present.
Dimitroff and Smith say the same things, not opposite ones. They both agree on how to build a team and what not. Yes, one is the boss of the other. Yes, they have different jobs. But the fact that they share the same philosophies so closely simply helps them to do their jobs. The GM can’t coach, and the coach is no GM. But they both believe in the same idea. They both want players who play fast, violent, and with a sense of urgency. So does Dimitroff go out and get guys who are slow-footed, take plays off regularly, and aren’t hard-nosed? NO!
Conversely, look at the team Billy Knight was putting together, and tell me how well that meshes with Woody’s style? Billy Knight once said that you don’t need a pg to be a successful team. Yet Woody can’t seem to function AT ALL without not only a pg, but a veteran pg. Sund said he likes Acie, and his potential. Of course, he could be a flat out liar (I’ll let you accuse him of that, or come up with some other explanation as to what he REALLY meant by that). Woody said prior to the season, he just wanted Acie to be himself, go out there, and lead the team. Gee, I guess he wasn’t “being himself”, and he damn sure didn’t lead the team. Healthy or not. I don’t really care about that at this point. I’m of the opinion that we either play him real minutes, or trade him away, period.
But with Woody and his boss, you tend to hear different things. Sund talks about the importance of player development. Woody doesn’t. Instead, he says he wants to play a 9 or 10 man rotation early in the season. Later, he talks about how all they need to do is go out and get a better bench. Never on the same page, and it doesn’t have $hit to do with a GM telling his coach to play a talented player.
My point is, a coach and a GM NEED to be on the same page on at least some things. Otherwise, you have a roster of players that don’t fit the philosophy, approach, or skill set of the coach. Or vice versa, if you choose to view it that way.
“And the notion that Woody potentially is NOT on the same page as his bosses (past and present) reinforces my assumption that he must be making the right call on Acie.”
Ah. See, this is what it all really came down to. While I suggested that the relationship between the Falcons coach and GM was nothing like the relationship between Woody and Knight/Sund, somehow I managed to trigger your “DEFEND WOODY AT ALL COSTS” button. Lord only knows how far THIS one will go…
Dude, don’t know how many times, or how many ways I can say that I’m over the whole Acie Law thing. I want to see him traded away or become a serious part of the rotation. What I want is good asset use/management. That’s all. If we aren’t going to use the guy, or think he can’t become anything for us, then get rid of him! Ain’t gonna hurt my feelings one bit. And I do recall saying I had no solid answer for his injuries and apparent unwillingness to play hurt. If the dude ain’t working out, cut him loose! I think some of the situation falls on Acie, and some of it falls on Woody. I won’t change my stance on it, but I’m not focused on it, either.
But I have to laugh at that. So the fact that Woody isn’t on the same page as either Knight or Sund actually confirms the idea that you think Woody is right about Acie? No, it simply confirms that you tend to think Woody is right, period. The fact that he tends not to be on the same page as his boss tells me something altogether different. But we won’t get into that. Might push your button…
But hey, if we go with that kind of logic, then anybody could pipe up and say that Woody’s lack of an extension, after the best season he’s ever had as a head coach, only reinforces the assumption that he needs to be let go. Dammit. I think I hit that button yet again…that wasn’t fair, was it? Same idea, just applied to a different target….
Big Ray
May 27th, 2009
11:51 pm
Sekou,
“and who gambles and loses in free agency and then has to scramble to make things right late in the summer.”
This is what I do NOT want to see us doing AGAIN. I know that sometimes this is part of the game, but I still don’t like it. Oh well…
But hey. Everything will be fine. After all, we’ve got Woody around still, and nobody knows talent like he does. He’s smarter than two GMs put together. In fact, that’s why he didn’t get an extension. It’s because Gearon is going to promote him to GM, or President of Basketball Operations (a position above Sund).
I think I read that somewhere. A place called AJSPORTS.NET.
Don’t look it up. Trust me.
Melvin
May 27th, 2009
11:53 pm
A total meltdown by the Nuggets in the 4th…
niremetal
May 28th, 2009
12:39 am
Gee Ray, tell us what you REALLY think
Ca$h
May 28th, 2009
12:55 am
Joe the Joke!! Unforced turnover committing, baby-bottom soft paint attempt shooting, 1 foot jumping, injury complex from Phoenix having, contact shying, overpaid, non-shot contesting, traveling, no-show in the playoffs performing, contested shot settling, shot-clock wasting, weak dribbling, often stripped and blocked handling, 2 free-throws the whole game shooting, zipped-lipped, emotionless, last man back in transition running, non fast break finishing, once every two months dunking, defeatist attitude having, excuse making, useless baseline game having, waste of a 6′7 240 lb frame. Offense or no offense, these are shortcomings that I can’t bear to watch from a supposed “number 1″ option any more. He barley puts up 20.0ppg in season and in the playoff thanks to Josh we beat Mami Heat… he over paid for his talent and age he not going to get much better due to his age. O yea again he over paid… TRADE
kirkinga
May 28th, 2009
1:57 am
But hey. Everything will be fine. After all, we’ve got Woody around still, and nobody knows talent like he does. He’s smarter than two GMs put together. In fact, that’s why he didn’t get an extension. It’s because Gearon is going to promote him to GM, or President of Basketball Operations (a position above Sund).
LOL! Oh my..that was good. I needed that laugh thanks Ray .
Um, but as long time Atlanta sports fan, I know better than to dismiss the idea out of hand.
kirkinga
May 28th, 2009
2:39 am
doc, I’m going to have to agree with you again…lol!
Yes there are bigger fish to fry with the construction of the the team tantamount to the coach..or seemingly so.
It get’s back to the vision thing and Sund’s, and as you pointed out ASG’s lack thereof.I think part of Ray’s and Astro Joe’s dialoge about the GM-Coach synchronization is instructive in this regard. Dimitroff and Coach Smith both agree on what a winning football team needs to look like and appear to be on the same page. There doesn’t appear to be serious disagreement about what the areas of weakness are and what type of player is needed to address those weaknesses.
We saw also with great success with John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox. Overwhelming pitching, solid defense and timely hitting was their vision and they worked that vision pretty well.
Does Wadell have a vision for the Thrashers? If he does it sure is immediately apparent to even a casual hockey fan.
Fratello and Kasten started out with the same vision I think, but diverged at some point which hasten the departure of Fratello and the grounding of the Atlanta Air Force.
With this indecision over Coach Woodson, he will be building a team with the GM and Head Coach apparently at some odds as to where each sees this team. So what Sund constructs during the offseason, is it for Woodson, or the next guy? If it’s the next guy then this offseason affords the team a much better environment to make major changes and synchronize visions than firing Woodson at some point in the season.
So yes picking the fish is most important because the more talent, the better the chance to win. But if you’re not sure whether you’re going to fry, bake, or grill, then you’re really wasting time aren’t you?
I promise to keep an open mind though. But until I see what Sund picks up in the market, I can’t realistically set any expectations for next season and that’s part of the frustration too.
cp
May 28th, 2009
3:44 am
ray you’re on fire I see lol
dap01
May 28th, 2009
7:49 am
The Hawks organization is so disfunctional.
doc
May 28th, 2009
7:55 am
well pick me up off the floor.
kirk, now i am going to borrow from you, all is well. heh heh
i will not have any expectation nor frustration over this off season because there is so much work to be done and i have no clear cut answer as what to be done nor what will be done to even begin to have some emotional attachment to it. so right now i’ll just sit back knowing i have said my load last year and if heard there would have been less turmoil this year. i will watch and see if the basg has really grown as an organization then set my expectation for the upcoming season much later. for me it will be a pretty relaxed summer because i have set my expectations very low based on what has gone before. just having a team and a seat to watch them will be a luxury. if i end up going more to see the other team then i will assure you one of the luxuries will be gone this time next year. pragmatic, eh?
btw, ditto on your thoughts regarding the history of sports in this town. lived it a long time and no misrepresentation there.
RealSquawk
May 28th, 2009
9:19 am
Completely off topic is there any player five years in the league that has made major improvement or changed his personality and style?
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
9:24 am
The Dream matchup of Kobe and Lebron in the Finals is looking more like the nightmare of Dan and Dave 1992 Olympics showdown where only 1 made it to the big show. Take that David Stern….. Lets Go Magic…
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
9:26 am
Still not sure what you’re talking about Ray, no mattter how bold, indented or italicized. I discussed the role of the GM as another set of eyes to evaluate players and you started discussing GM and coach being on the same page. Huh?
It’s not about defending Woody as much as it is about discussing the premise that any coach could single handedly hold back a team/player without anyone having the power (short of terminating him) to do something about it. My point is and was that a GM (or his assistant) also have a view into what players are doing. And that’s the way it should be. The more eyes the better.
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
9:33 am
RealSquawk, when did Billups go from draft bust to clutch leader? I’m not sure if it was prior to his 5th year or after, but he was the first guy who came to mind regarding your question. Hard to say if he was a late bloomer or just someone who was in the wrong system(s) but we know that he bounced around a lot before he emerged into the player that won the crown with Detroit.
Sautee
May 28th, 2009
9:39 am
RealSquawk,
Chauncey Billups, Devon Harris, Jermaine O’Neal are some that off the top of my head, didn’t become truly solid players until their 5th year.
Is this because you doubt Josh’s ability to improve enough?
Veteran Fan
May 28th, 2009
9:49 am
Josh for Bosh and assorted pieces! Sign Gortat! Resign Flip! Resign Jones. Do not resign Bibby and Zaza too expensive! Sign and trade Marvin for developing pg! Use #19 for trade or pg or shooting guard. Rotation Bosh, Horford, Johnson, Murray and new pg. Gortat and Jones give length and defensive presence and Bosh can play 3 when Joe needs a rest. Sign Childress for defensive presence or sign and trade him for Charlie V. Good defense but more consistent offense every night with points coming from every spot!
Hoops
May 28th, 2009
9:49 am
Tyger,
Preach it brother, preach it! Amen, Amen, Amen!
If I am reading you right, is this your lineup?
PG-Flip
SG-Jamaal Crawford, Evans
SF-JJ, Marvin, Morris Almond
PF-Horford, J. Smith
C-Drew Gooden, Zaza, Morris
I don’t know how you are swinging the money, but I like this team if we can add Sessions or Devin Harris @ PG. We can win the NBA Championship with this team!
Veteran Fan
May 28th, 2009
10:15 am
Prediction is Hawks sit pat and resign Bibby and Marvin and possibly not make playoffs next season. Joe traded to a contender for playoff run and eventually reunited with Dantoni in NY with the Knicks along with Bosh. Lebron switches to New Jersey with young front line and another guard and NJ and NY become the toast of the league for five years of fast paced showtime basketball! Howard moves to NJ or NY or Boston and D.Wade and Chris Paul join one of those franchises for star power! This is our year folks and then David Stern will look the other way while these three franchises throw money at stars. East will be four team media circus with Knicks, Nets, Bulls, and possibly Boston and everyone else scrambling for crumbs! Our franchise will probably move to Tampa or back to St. Louis as fewer people come out to watch Josh Smith miss threes and play indifferent defense and Woodson claim he cannot fix the offense! Management needs to have the guts to ignore the media and go for the ring! Cavaliers are a good team with a very good player but we were exposed in the Miami series and we need another consistent shooter and scorer(Bosh) which we can afford! We need a big man who can score Gortat and we can afford! We need a point that can shoot but dishes first(not Bibby) and play some defense! Need a defensive stopper at 2 or 3(Marvin or Childress). Lets see if there is a vision in Atlanta or are they just filling seats and know the league will not allow them to make run!
Ariose
May 28th, 2009
10:35 am
After wathich Rafer and Mo go to work last night. It’s obvious thant we need a guard that is big physically and can handle the ball like Acie can. Acie being able to put all of his gifts togeter at once is the hard part though.
Mo Williams went hard last night in the first half. If Bibby was guarding him it would’ve been goodnight Hawks. I WANT acie to succeed. He is the type of guard that’s all the rage now: Big, Fast, and very hard to keep out of the paint.
I mean If they are going to evaluate him then let him run the damn show for AT LEAST the first 5min of every game. (Like what mike did with Royal Ivey or Denver does with Dhantay Jones). If not, There are some VERY, VERY, GOOD PG’s in this upcoming draft, that we should aquire.
But I will not accept another season of treading water as far as our PG situation is concerned. Not having a Legit guard who contributes on a regular baisis and will be a stple for this francise for years to come, while renting out the services of an aging/slowing Mike Bibby is NOT acceptable to the fans, or to the guys in the locker room who signed long-term contracts with promises from our owners that we were working twoards heading for greatness(championchip contention).
Astro Joe
May 28th, 2009
10:39 am
Calipari, cheating? Memphis Tigers, tainted? There’s a shock! And if anyone at Kentucky acts surprised and dismayed about this news, well, they need to go and buy a freakin’ clue. I’ll admit, I was ticked off at Kentucky for the way that ran off Tubby Smith and I wish nothing but 10+ years of heart-ache for that fan base. And it feels like they are about to get that and then some. They better start checking the SAT scores and grades for all of their primo recruits… and the banking accounts for their parents, too.
O'brien
May 28th, 2009
10:48 am
Ray, to comment on the discussion about Coach and GM being on the same page, you wonder if Woody and BK were ever on the same page. When Woody was an assistant coach with LB, those teams were half-court oriented/defensive minded grind it out. But all the players BK chose were swingmen who could create mismatches and get up and down the floor. If that was BK’s vision, I dont know why he thought Woody would be the man for the job, when his experience suggested otherwise. Or why did he continue to draft these guys knowing Woody needs guys to play in the half-court.
I guess one page that both he and Woody were on is the “pass up Chris Paul and Deron Williams, but sign Chris Paul’s backup” page. But that page has been beaten to death lol.
I think it will be tough for the Hawks to have the success they did last year, unless they make some moves. We saw teams get injured, make some trades, had a first time coach etc. It is very possible that these teams (Bucks, Wizards, Bulls, Sixers etc.) will be better next year. And the Hawks cant afford to stand pat.
The Truth
May 28th, 2009
10:50 am
Guys I am really enjoying the comments on these blogs lately. So much so, I haven’t had the need to make any comments of my own. I am just enjoying the reads. However, I do have a few thoughts about Mr. Sund
I’M WONDERING; CAN WE CALL HIM A DRAMA QUEEN YET? Not just because of his action as a GM but because of his inaction as well. This year just as last year, it seems Sund is only positioning to acquire the left over talents. With all of these great ideas from bloggers and sport pundits about the Hawks roster needs to get better by additions and/or subtractions, Sund actions and/or inactions might lead us into the out house instead of the penthouse next season. I hope not and I hope I’m wrong As I reflect of his tenure so far, the only move that have paid off was Flip Murray and perhaps he got lucky. Flip emerged as a major contributor for us. Most of the time, his role was playing Robin to Batman-JJ against a measly 1-year 1.5M salary. If that was part of Sund master plan, why didn’t he really pay Flip and tie him up with a multi-year contract deal? I say, Flip came to him by accident and not part of any strategy. The Mo Evans move, in my opinion was the strategy move and was a waste considering his pay of 2.5M per year for 3 years. Let’s face it; Mo is small as a SF and too inconsistent as a scoring option. I will give him a C+ on defense. In hind-sight, Flip should have had the multi-year deal and Mo Evan should have had the one-year deal. The other moves Sund have made with Gardner and Hunter have been questionable D-league type decisions. If you combined their salaries, the 1.5M might have yielded us a better more productive veteran NBA player. If these players aren’t re-signed, then his experiment with them would have failed. We have been begging for a quality big and Sund got us a 4th option (in the rotation) Morris who rarely plays for nearly a 1M per year for the next 2 years. As I recalled, the Morris acquisition was also an accident. Just what big (if any) was he really looking at prior to signing Morris? He also stressed us all out with very long and dramatic (made for film production) negotiations involving the Joshes as he fumble the ball with chill. He made no moves for a quality backup for Josh Smith at times burning him out. He sat and waited while all the quality NBA FA talents got picked up by other teams before the 08/09 season started. He pulled inaction on us again during the trading deadline and decided we didn’t need any additions to the roster while our injured starters struggled in the playoff. Yes, we got the 4th seed. Perhaps that was the result of acquiring Flip Murray by accident (on the cheap) and a healthy Bibby in a weak eastern conference. You be the judge. Way to go Sund; now we must pay Flip Robin-like money to keep him. His agent will make sure of that. If Sund tries to play hard ball with Flip, he will lose as other teams have seen his value off the bench. Hell even Detroit may want him back and pay big money. Let’s not kid ourselves about a bad economy; quality FA role players will be extremely hot this summer. These playoffs have revealed the importance of the role players; perhaps even more so then the superstars. Look at superstars Lebron and Kobe and their struggling role players compared to Orlando distributed offense. So with Sund, will the drama continue?
Now here we are, discussing the upcoming draft, free agency, trades and salaries etc. as they relate to the Hawks upcoming season and our desire for the team to get better. If Sund last year pattern is any indication of our prospects for the upcoming season, than perhaps we should tone down our optimism. However, I will give Sund the benefit of my doubts. Because we have all bared witness to the BK 13 win-misery, any GM changes will probably be considered improvements relatively speaking. So while we are all speculating, discussing and developing these very thoughtful ideas for the Hawks to improve, Sund’s actions and/or inactions will be in the spotlight and will speak much louder than anything he says or doesn’t say during interviews.
Melvin
May 28th, 2009
10:52 am
Astro,
Makes you wonder how can one coach (who name is not Nick Nolte) get all thoses Blue Chipper recuits in the same year….
Egins26Ali
May 28th, 2009
11:00 am
I love the Charlie V. idea. I hope the Hawks truly consider it. I still think a center like Ryan Hollins or Gortat starting, along with Charlie V, Marvin, Flip, Zaza & AC off the bench give us the depth we need to be serious contenders.