No need for snap decisions
The only thing that rages more than Josh Smith's emotions is his over-the-top talent . The Hawks would be wise to find ways to help channel that emotion in a positive direction.
HAWKSVILLE - Raise your hand if you thought we’d all end up here.
Go ahead, raise it up high. Let the rest of us see you. I need to make sure we count the hands.
Good. Now that the roll call is over, it’s time to get down the serious business that will be retooling this Hawks roster for next season. In case you missed it, nearly half the roster is going to be diving into the free agent waters this summer.
That means there’s a chance that the Hawks team you saw on the floor in the Eastern Conference semifinals against Cleveland will be no more as of July 1, the date the free agent negotiating season kicks off. That also means that the ball switches from Mike Woodson, Joe Johnson, Mike Bibby and Josh Smith’s court to that of Hawks general manager Rick Sund.
And judging by his 30-plus year resume in the league, Sund is well aware that now is not the time for snap decisions. Those are the things, as my guy Jeff Schultz alluded to his in his column from Game 4 of the Cleveland series, that can implode a franchise. Sund needs to do what his predecessor did not after last year’s Game 7 loss to Boston, and that’s take a week or so to decompress from this experience before coming to any conclusions about this team.
(Injuries to both Al Horford and Marvin Williams complicate any postseason studies into their performances, so basically all you can go off of is their healthy regular season work.)
We, on the other hand, don’t have to wait for anything to start making our assessments of what we saw, what we liked and disliked and what we think needs to be done to improve for the future (a wise . We can dive right in, as I know you have been doing for days. So without further ado, here is one thing that can’t wait:
Since he’s the one player Hawks fans ride worse than any other, it’s only fitting that we address Josh Smith first. No fewer than a dozen people came up to me in the minutes after the game to insist that he was the reason the Hawks lost yet another game. He wasn’t locked in on defense, I was told, and he was the one giving up all the big shots, and he let Anderson Varejao work him on the boards the entire series and that’s ultimately what cost the Hawks.
I’ve written it before and I’ll write it again, once again Smith serves as the easy scapegoat for the Hawks’ larger problems (their paper-thin depth, their flawed offensive scheme the wordsmith Mark Bradley nailed in his recent column and their inability to get ball pressure on the ball at the outset of offensive possessions, just to name a few).
In addition to outscoring all the Hawks other starters (26 to 25) in Game 4, Smith led the Hawks in scoring (17.1), rebounds (7.5), blocks (1.5) and steals (1.1, he tied with Flip Murray) in 11 postseason games. He only shot 42 percent from the floor and a putrid 13 percent (2-for-15) from beyond the 3-point line. But he raised his dismal free throw shooting percentage from the regular season up to 72 percent during the playoffs.
The point is, for every deficiency he has (and five years into his career, Smith, like scores of other pros in the same situation, still has plenty) Smith has a matching skill that can’t be overlooked. His mission this summer, forget about the 3-point line and hone the post skills that few teams can deal with. Take a page out of the book of New Orleans Hornets forward David West and come back with a money 16-footer that makes teams pay for leaving you open on the wing.
I place as much of the responsibility for that happening on Smith as I do his employers. There has to be some sort of marriage of philosophies this summer to make sure that he comes back next season a more polished player and one that fulfills his role as the Hawks’ truly most dynamic player.
We’re going to toss Bibby’s name around quite a bit in the coming weeks, so let me start by insisting that you consider what the Hawks looked like before he showed up and then compare that to what they looked like in his 130 games in uniform. It was a different world, folks. So keep that in mind this summer as the Hawks start weighing their point guard possibilities – and they are endless, what with the free agent market, the draft and whatever sign-and-trade possibilities might be out there.
Bibby’s status as an unrestricted free agent means he’ll have suitors other than the Hawks capable of presenting him with the opportunity to play at least three or four more years (Bibby’s been around for 11 years but just made 31 today). “The Hawks can get someone that’s a better defender and better distributor at that position, but I don’t know that they’re going to get a better shot maker or a better fit for their
Hey Hawks, what are you going to do with Mike Bibby?
team,” a scout friend told me via email earlier today when I inquired about his assessment of Bibby’s situation with the Hawks. “There’s not a team in the league that doesn’t need a guy who’s going to knock down the big shots he does. And the funny thing is, for all the talk about his big salary this year ($15 million in the final year of his deal), you know you’re going to get him for half that or even less on this next deal. He’ll actually be a bargain on his next deal, compared to what he was.”
Bibby is and remains the biggest question mark of the Hawks’ free agents. If you keep him, his successor has to be located immediately and then groomed (what the Hawks did the past two years with Acie Law IV was anything but grooming him) to eventually take over the starting job. If you decide against keeping Bibby, you almost guarantee that you’ll have to locate your new starter via some sort of trade. Because there is little to no chance of finding a point guard ready to be pressed into immediate starting service in the June draft, not where the Hawks are picking (deep in the first round at either 19 or 20).
The Hawks could pull a fast one and snag their point guard of the future and Bibby’s immediate replacement all at once. But as an Eastern Conference executive explained to me Tuesday morning, they’ll have to find someone else’s “garbage” (it wasn’t garbage in the sense you might think, he meant a guy that someone deemed expendable) and make him their own – sort of like what Cleveland did with Delonte West, who has blossomed into one of the league’s top young attack guards (a point guard in size but whatever he wants to be because of his tenacity and fearlessness). Guys that fit that mold to me, and I think there are plenty, including former Georgia Tech star Jarrett Jack, Lakers backup Jordan Farmar (he’s under contract for the next two years and under siege by Shannon Brown), Milwaukee’s Ramon Sessions (unrestricted free agent and ready for prime time) and Portland’s Sergio Rodriguez (still under contract for another year but clearly expendable with Steve Blake and Jerryd Bayless on the roster). There are
Might former Georgia Tech star Jarrett Jack be in the Hawks' future plans at point guard? We'll find out this summer.
also veterans like Philly’s Andre Miller (unrestricted), Chicago’s Kirk Hinrich (hefty salary for the next three years but absolutely expendable with Derrick Rose at the helm and Ben Gordon an unrestricted free agent), Charlotte’s Raymond Felton (restricted) and Utah’s Ronnie Price (unrestricted).
Again, the Hawks’ options are limitless, especially when you consider that basically half the players on their own roster are free agents of one form or another. But make no mistake, figuring out what to do at point guard remains the Hawks’ highest priority.
And there are several reasons why – the first being their utter refusal to draft the right point guard year after year during the previous regime. The most important, however, is that point guard play in the NBA has become the equivalent of quarterback play in the NFL. Either you have a veteran hand capable of orchestrating almost any situation, a guy that can make everything run smoothly (Kurt Warner anyone) or you have the young phenom (the Falcons’ Matt Ryan comes to mind) that simply will not be denied. If you get caught between those two extremes, you’re gambling with your team’s future.
If you don’t believe quality point guard play can make the absolute difference between mediocre and championship worthy, you should spend a few minutes reading one of the best stories I’ve read about that very subject (courtesy of Tom Friend of ESPN’s Outside The Lines). Seriously, if you don’t do anything else, read this story from top to bottom to see how the right guy at the most important position on the floor (or field) can make all the difference in the world for a team … sort of like Bibby did for the Hawks the last year and a half.
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624 comments Add your comment
niremetal
May 14th, 2009
12:22 am
I dunno, Sekou…I think it’s a bit of an overgeneralization to talk about point guard like that. Because the role of the point guard varies tremendously depending on a team’s offensive scheme. In the triangle offense and other offenses that depend on quick ball movement between multiple players, there really isn’t any “point guard” in the traditional sense of the term. Similarly, in offenses that focus on swingman isolation (like, say, Woody’s), it’s more important to have a PG that can knock down open shots than it is to have a distributor – which is why Bibby turned out to be such a great fit. And of course, in offenses that rely on pick-and-roll plays, other “traditional” half-court sets, and/or fast break scoring, a traditional point guard is all but essential. And then there are offenses like San Antonio’s and Cleveland’s that don’t fit any of those molds.
Anyway, it all depends on the system. That’s all I’m trying to say. Great blog, though.
Melvin
May 14th, 2009
12:31 am
Great blog Sekou (and timely). Although we have already reconstruct the Hawks team before Cleveland left Philips Arena. I think you hit the nail on the head about Josh. No way should we trade our most dynamic player. I think that guy will comeback next season with improve with a mid-range jumpshot. I think the big lights of the playoffs will motivate him this summer to comeback with that mid-range jumper. As for Bibby, Im torn with what to do with him. I can’t argue that the Hawks was definitely better with him but the playoffs did expose his weakness tremendously and not grooming Acie was a major flaw of Woody. Now he put Sund in a tough spot by having to find a replacement/backup PG that may cost the ASG more $$$$ (think Speedy contract).
HB Ando
May 14th, 2009
12:37 am
Yup, it’s a rare Ando sighting, for whatever the heck that’s worth.
I dunno, nire, you seem to highlight the far easier side of the issue, as it relates to Bibby, by discussing offense. There’s no doubt he’s been a major plus for the team, on that end of the court. And there’s no doubt that he’s a solid fit playing along side one of the best passing 2-guards in the NBA.
But my concern is that he continues to look overwhelmed on defense, and, at 31, can only get SLOWER. So with a conference dotted with the youthful likes of Rondo, Rose, Chalmers, Mo Williams/West, Calderon and Harris, isn’t it statistically likely that he can only become more of a liability on the defensive end?
I still subscribe to the net question of just how many teams would view him as an upgrade over their current point guard situation. I don’t think the number hits 10.
I don’t want to veer off too deeply into an upcoming post, but I don’t see a number that makes sense for keeping Bibby, if the Hawks are honest about what they’ll need to do in the next five years to compete with Lebron and the Cavs.
And I do think that’s the only point of reference that should be used: what changes do the Hawks need to make, across the board, to challenge the Cavs, in the coming years?
It’s challenging to imagine that a team that just had its best season in a decade may need major changes to continue to improve it’s position in the East, much less avoid sliding backwards next season.
But I think that’s the reality of the Hawks’ off-season.
More to come over on the Hacks’ blog, in the coming days…..
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
12:39 am
We dont need a point guard we have one right in our back yard plus he is not going to cause you a lot of money and his name is acie law.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
ATL FAN
May 14th, 2009
12:43 am
We should keep bibby, for about 8 million a year. Trade marvin williams for a starting center. Then Move horford and smoove back to their positions Horford to 4 and smoove to 3 and get rid of those ten day guys at the end of the bench and sign more experience backups. Keep flip and zaza. And we will be a top two team in the east.
niremetal
May 14th, 2009
12:44 am
Ando,
I wasn’t talking about Bibby in particular. Just ruminating in general about the role that a point guard plays. I wasn’t advocating for against keeping Bibby – I’m ambivalent on that question. Anyway, can’t disagree about his defensive liabilities. The question is whether we could get any more bang for our buck elsewhere while still filling our need for a clutch perimeter shooter.
ATL FAN
May 14th, 2009
12:47 am
Sekou,
Could you name some bigs that would possibly be avail.
HB Ando
May 14th, 2009
12:53 am
Nire, don’t disagree with the relevance of a PG being considered in the context of his system. But, in general, finding a “money” shooter is the easiest of three needs; in addition to center to complement which 3 (Marvin or Josh) we ultimately keep (yup, nothing has changed in the four years I’ve opined that ultimately one of them will be traded) and PG that is able to defend against the crazy quick, young, PG’s that now populate the East. Bibby’s lack of lateral movement, which can only get worse from his age forward, puts incredible pressure on the rest of the interior defense. When you compound the fact that we have an undersized front line, comprised of 2 SF’s and a PF, the net outcome is not so good.
And we’re not even taking into account the Woody factor, which I simply don’t have energy to address.
Night…..
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
12:54 am
We have to add another impact player to the hawks some one who command double team to take the pressure of joe and in order for you to do that you have to clear up cap space.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bowman
May 14th, 2009
12:59 am
Not mentioned here but let’s be honest, who really believes Mike Woodson can take this team to a higher level? How many times, after a blow-out loss, have we heard him say, “I don’t know what happened.”? This is the man who allowed the team’s offense to stagnate around Joe Johnson, who is a capable player but not, as Sekou has written, a superstar. This is the man who has mortgaged the Hawks’ future by NOT playing Acie Law. This is the man who would rather butt heads with Josh Smith rather than force him to develop his game. This is the man who emulates his mentor, Bobby Knight, rather than develop his players. This is the man who will restrict this team’s growth. Yes, there are player issues but the bigger issue is finding a coach who can take this team to a higher level. His name is not Mike Woodson.
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
1:07 am
Clear cap space bibby 15million gone speedy the bank robber 6million gone trade horford 4million marvin 4million thats 29million all together for bosh six year 80million and about 13.8million a year.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hawk Str8Talk
May 14th, 2009
1:16 am
Well, I love the offseason talk, but until I hear from the GM or the coach speaking about how they are going to truly change the philosophy of how this team plays basketball – I’ll continue to believe that coaching is the #1 priority. Not Josh. Not Bibby. Not any other Hawk. I know Sund has to figure out the pieces, but he needs to figure out the coach in order to know what pieces to put in place. If he’s going to stick with Woodson, then yes, I think a trade of Acie and Josh would be in order. Not b/c I think that’s best for the franchise, but b/c it’s apparent that Woodson is from the Larry Brown school (with much less coaching acumen) where he needs a veteran team that can be leaders and already versed what is necessary to win a championship. That’s a tall order for Sund to fulfill in one or two offseasons, but that’s the only way Woodson can be successful. He is not a take any team and utliize their strengths/minimize their weaknesses/groom their young players for a championship type coach.
He is a take what you have and tell them what to do, but not design or show them what to do coach. Plus, he’s coached as if he had to win every game to keep his job (which is probably true) coach. .That’s why Joe was run into the ground and why players aren’t getting development minutes b/c he feels (rightly or wrongly) that he has to win every battle (regular season games) with little regard to winning the war (postseason). So, until you have an answer to the coaching, I can’t see even talking about what we should do next. If I could pick any coach, then our current team is in play and I’d think about what to do with the roster spots occupied by Solo, Randolph, and Mario. If not, I’d look at what I can get for Marvin, Josh, Acie and our draft picks in order to fit Woodson’s limited scheme.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2009
1:29 am
A few things to respond to from the previous blog…
“Josh’s assists are offset by the fact that he turns the ball over at about the same rate as he gets assists. He blocks fewer shots than he used to and, more importantly, he is still a mediocre-to-poor on-ball defender. He’s not our best inside scorer – Horford is.”
I couldn’t possibly disagree more strongly with this. Horford has two post moves: turnaround jumper (which gets blocked any time someone over 7 feet is guarding him) and awkward, mechanical jump hook (which is hit or miss at best). He is a fine defensive player and a fine rebounder but he has nowhere near the fluidity and confidence that Josh has as a post scorer. And it’s not like either one gets regular opportunities so you can’t really attribute this to touches either. Josh has a lot of room for growth (he needs to learn how to use his off hand), but he is pretty good with his left hand and pretty good at faking people into the air to draw fouls. Horford at this point in time has no clue how to draw fouls in the post, which is absolutely crucial to becoming a reliable post scorer.
“Which is why I have said (ad nauseum for sure) that we need a “part-time” defensive center more than we need to trade Marvin or Smith for a full-time center.”
This is truth. There are not a lot of legit two-way centers in the league, and partly because of this flawed centers who show flashes of playing on both ends get way overpaid (see Kaman, Chris and Dalembert, Samuel). I don’t think it would be that hard to find someone like Kendrick Perkins in the draft or in free agency (Perkins was drafted #27 overall), or to find a posse of two or three role players who each fill a slightly different role and together have a big impact (like the Nuggets currently have with Nene, Kenyon Martin, and the Birdman).
“I see Biedrins as a decent defender. I’m certainly not attacking him as a player. However, how hard is it to look good on defense, when you’re playing for a team that has almost nobody that actually plays defense?”
Good point… this often comes up when talking about 20-point scorers on bad teams, but it makes sense that it would apply on defense as well. Marcus Camby put up some monstrous defensive stats last year on a Nuggets team that couldn’t stop anyone… this year without him they are somehow much better defensively.
mykhalc
May 14th, 2009
1:30 am
no snap decision here…3 yrs thinkin’ about it…2 yrs knowin’ for sure…WOODSON IS CLUELESS…PERIOD!!! he’s gotta go!!!
BosnianBaller
May 14th, 2009
1:31 am
Re-sign Bibby.Trade for Jack and also trade Marvin in some way.Sign Rasheed Wallace to help inside by doing so he would help Horfords inside game by mentoring him like Wallace did to Jermaine O’Neal in Portland.
You can’t blow it all up.They have to decide to keep or trade Horford or williams.I’D pick Williams.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2009
1:33 am
Oh yeah, and love him or hate him, if there really are people who think Josh Smith is the reason the Hawks lost Game 4, they need their heads examined. He was the only player in that game playing like he wanted to be there. Everyone else played like they either belonged on the operating table or on a Caribbean beach. Without him the Hawks lose that game by 40.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2009
1:42 am
Love the suggestions for J-Smoove’s improvement though. If he makes that 15-footer as automatic as Haslem does and learns how to use his right hand in the post, he will be deadly.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2009
1:57 am
About Bibby… one thing we still don’t know with any level of certainty is how much he wants to get paid. Obviously nobody is going to pay him $15 million, but he could easily price himself out of the Hawks’ reach with his own demands (he wouldn’t be the first veteran angling for his last major contract to overprice himself on the free agent market).
I’ve said before and I still believe that if he leaves and Acie Law is given the reins, Acie might struggle at first but he’ll be fine as the starter in the long run. I still haven’t forgotten how lost Boston’s current triple-double machine Rajon Rondo looked as recently as two years ago. But if Bibby is willing to sign for $5-6 million a year the Hawks would seriously have to consider bringing him back, even with the questions about his defense as Ando mentioned. Bring him back for a three year deal and you can work Acie into the rotation slowly, so that by the end of Bibby’s contract when the Hawks can no longer compensate for his defensive inabilities, Acie can assume the starting role.
I don’t think it makes a whole lot of sense to bring in a free agent point guard with limited experience (Rodriguez, Farmar, Price), poor decision making (Felton), or far greater salaries than Bibby would have (Hinrich). Andre Miller is a guy who will push the tempo, but who provides nothing when it comes to outside shooting. Of the PGs mentioned above I would probably prefer Jack or Sessions most based on their salary range and capabilities on the court — Jack’s the better defender and 3-point shooter, Sessions is the better playmaker/pure point guard.
But to be honest — and who knows, maybe I’m biased — I really don’t think Acie Law would be much worse than those guys if he gets a full year of starting under his belt, especially since he’s already played with the other players on this team and knows their capabilities. I just don’t think it’s wise to give up on your lottery-pick point guard, who has done nothing to show that he CAN’T handle the position full time, just because his coach refuses to rely on his bench. After all the disasters the Hawks have had at the point guard position, the last thing they need is for Acie to turn into Chauncey Billups version 2.0 with some other team.
BarkingBulldawg
May 14th, 2009
2:01 am
This column frustrates me Sekou because I like it when you seem to “get it” and your statement saying this team could only be judged by its regular season is just not “getting it”. We SQUEAKED by a team that probably would have lost a series to any other playoff team (save maybe the Pistons). The Miami series was possibly the ugliest display of playoff basketball ever (and many a-commentator said as much during their playoff coverage). Then, we go and lay a whole clutch of eggs against Cleveland. Say what you want, “healthy” or not, our team did not look like it belonged on the same court as the Cavs, despite having an arguably more talented starting five (when healthy, which we basically were – you sound exactly like Woody is going to this offseason when trying to explain being DOMINATED by the Cavs). The playoffs is EVERYTHING when analyzing our team because of the watered down regular season with peaks and valleys. Everything when analyzing Bibby, who is about what you described – a non-traditional PG who plays no D but can hit big shots at times. Everything when analyzing our coaching staff (ie Woody), who showed once again that he has lost this team and is unable to motivate or inspire them (of course that doesn’t even get into his strategic inadequacies).
As for the offseason, if we can really re-sign Bibby for less than half of what he is making (ie less than $7.5 million), then of course you re-sign him. Given the deep FA pool and the economy and I think he could indeed be a bargain. I think you still have to take advantage of this deep PG draft class and try to get your future PG at 19 (Flynn, Patty Mills?).
You are also right about not “blowing up” the team but for the wrong reason. We need to see what this team is capable of under a competent head coach before we make any significant changes. There is no telling the leap forward this team would take just having a coach who would get us in a decent offensive system and have us play smart, disciplined basketball. And, we should not risk losing a key piece (like Acie Law) just because they may be expendable or underachieving in Woody’s “system” if you can even call it that.
We also need to add depth (as mentioned). We do not have (or use) close to the amount of depth of a playoff team. Really though, is there any point if you wont use the depth we have? Joe Johnson should not be playing more minutes than Kobe, Wade and LeBron. I don’t know another coach or organization who would have let Acie rot on the bench for two seasons instead of taking every opportunity to develop him.
I’ll stop there. It’s a shame because another year with Woody is going to be another wasted year. We cannot take a step forward as an organization to compete with the elite teams with this guy coaching here. Please do the right thing, ASG. Bring in Van Gundy (the skinny one) or anyone, but as long as Woody is here we will NOT get the best from the talent we have.
BarkingBulldawg
May 14th, 2009
2:02 am
I will say though, I think you are DEAD ON in assessing Josh Smith.
Who knows how much maturity he would show under a new coach (yes, I am going there again) ????
BarkingBulldawg
May 14th, 2009
2:04 am
“poor decision making (Felton)”
Why don’t more people seem to realize R. Felton shoots the worst % of any starting PG in the league? He is ABSOLUTELY NOT the answer.
ken
May 14th, 2009
2:58 am
i like the ramon sessions idea, a point guard who can score and dish, most of all play defense
tbhawksfan
May 14th, 2009
3:26 am
With good coaching, every player on a roster is an asset. I don’t think Woodson sees things that way. His coaching certainly hasn’t demonstrated as much.
I hope Sund is bright enough to understand that the Hawks have lots of assets. They need to get bigger in the post, find a PG that can distribute, add depth and find the coach that will exploit the strengths of the team.
Woodson has a long history (since he got here: Tony Delk) of totally destroying any players potential who can’t immediately do what he wantsthem to do. He has been at conflict with at least one, usually more, players each year he’s been here. He and Smoove don’t talk. Is that what you want from a Head Coach?
The excuse that he’s been protecting himself because of his short contract status doesn’t wash. His only vision as coach should be to help the team reach it’s highest potential; not protect his position at the detriment of the team.
You can’t get people to do what you want them to do if they don’t respect or like you.
The only two players that I’ve heard come out to support Woody are JJ and Bibby. I think those players motivation for supporting Woody was selfish at best. Woodson iso scheme helped JJ move into the semi-elite in the league and revived Bibby’s carrer just in time for another contract. I think JJ and Bibby’s position is an example of the lack of team philosophy in Woodson’s coaching.
If you want other players to defer, you have to sell them on the idea that it is good for the team. I don’t think Woody has ever achieved that; thus the rift between certain players and the coach (and each other).
Sund took a year off to get to know the team. In the meantime moves that could have been made to help the team were not made. It seems that an hour or two of going through the local blogs would have been enough to give him a good idea of what the team needs were. I have no idea what he was doing before he got here that required him to take a year to get to know the team.
I don’t think you need to blow the team up. We have lots of young talent. Improve the size inside (even with a minor addition), implement an intelligent scheme and mend the rift between the players and the results might be surprising.
The only core player I want to replace is Bibby. His defensive liabilities are unacceptable for a starting PG. He also has no PG game in the half-court. His game is suited to come off the bench and hit a few threes, not to run the team.
I think a good coach, with a better distributing, defensive PG and a couple of minor additions and subtractions (subtractions: Solo, Rio, Hunter, Speedy, Randolf, Gardner were all dead weight that contributed nearly nothing) would love to run this group.
I still think we are in good shape, after years of Woody and the ASG, it just doesn’t seem like it anymore.
BA
May 14th, 2009
3:33 am
Start Flip and keep Acie, unless Bibby will sign for less than $8 million.
But Sessions IS nice…
smartguy
May 14th, 2009
3:40 am
Good points from myk and Najeh. We have been watching this team for long enough to know what we’d like to see changed. Obviously the offseason doesn’t start for a while, so its not like anything is going to happen right away, so lets calm down with all the calm down talk.
Most of us have been clamoring for two or three years that Mike Woodson is a horrible coach. SS, even your articles seem to indicate you would also be in favor of such a change. And let me say this about Woody, HE DID NOTHING THIS YEAR TO CHANGE MY LONG STANDING OPINION THAT HE IS AN AWFUL, AWFUL COACH.
I have also seen Joe Johnson’s complete lack of leadership (in fact, I would say he rarely gets excited when someone other than Bibby or himself makes a big play) for several years, all the while occasionally watching him with the National team. Seeing his hustle and effort when playing for the National team (or even in the all-star game) and comparing it to what we see game in and game out with the Hawks is very frustrating for Hawks fans.
To me, Josh Smith is one of the best players on the team, and also one of the reasons we did as well as we did in the playoffs. His contract is set, his upside is huge, and he’s a hometown hero…
Other than getting a competent head coach, THE MOST GLARING DEFICIENCY IS THE HAWKS INABILITY TO PROTECT THE RIM. We have got to get a legit center, not a 6′9″ power forward. For starters, the number of quality centers is very limited, and it will definitely take more than Marvin Williams to land a decent big man. Thats why I say TRADE NO SHOW JOE to accomplish that.
smartguy
May 14th, 2009
3:45 am
Woo, tbhawksfan, great stuff on the Woody, and especially the Woody, Bibby, JJ love triangle:
“The only two players that I’ve heard come out to support Woody are JJ and Bibby. I think those players motivation for supporting Woody was selfish at best. Woodson iso scheme helped JJ move into the semi-elite in the league and revived Bibby’s carrer just in time for another contract. I think JJ and Bibby’s position is an example of the lack of team philosophy in Woodson’s coaching.”
If we ever want to do more than get to the second round year by year, I would get rid of all three!
Samuel
May 14th, 2009
5:06 am
Great Blog Cuz,
I honestly believe the whole league will be spinning their wheels for the next few years anyway. We have officially entered the “King James Era”. It’s been a few years but the “AIR” apparent has finally showed up. Unless there’s another 6′9 270 plus who is bigger , faster and smarter. It really don’t matter. We’ll all be playing for second best i’m afraid.
Cuz, I had to actually go back a re-read the name you mentioned first. Josh? Didn’t you mean JJ?
I think Bibby’s resigning will be up to him IMO. If he want’s to stay and take a pay cut. Hell yea, bring him back. From the sound of things, the ATL has him “hooked”. A pretty boy with “stacks” like that and all these beautiful women down South. He’ll be back.
I really think it will be Marvin and someone else(Acie and Speedy and other dead weight) who will be moved this year. Marvin is getting better but like Ando says. One of them have to go. You don’t move Josh. He puts “butts” in the seats.
I can see us pretty much staying where we are at in the standings next year. It would be nice to think that we could move up into the top 3 and avoid Cleveland but I can’t see that without doing something “DRASTIC” like getting Howard here. Realistically, that aint happening unless he demands a trade. I think the “Big Panicky” will have to go. He can join his brother, the “Little Chiwawa” in the booth.
Big Ray
May 14th, 2009
5:58 am
Hmmmm. Very nice blog.
Niremetal,
Nice thoughts. Except….tell me how many teams (specifically in the East) are running triangle offenses and what not. Take a look around and notice that not only are there very few teams in the league running those kinds of offenses, but most of the teams in the East have either a dynamic or very solid point guard. Even the guys that don’t necessarily meet the definition of true point guard. The need for a point guard applies only too well to this team, as long as we are running the kind of offense that we are right now. Change the offensive scheme, and you can change anything you like. Of course, you know what kind of change it would take for that to happen…
Look at the East, when talking about the pg position. Rose. Rondo. Harris. Mo Williams. Rose makes that initial list because he is already that good. Then you have young guys that we will have to watch out for: Chalmers, DJ Augustin, possibly Sessions, and maybe even that kid up in Washington. Oh yeah, him. His name is Crittenton, and he’s finally getting his shot.
No, that’s not every starting pg in the East. You have solid starters like Duhon, Ford, and Calderon, Nelson, and Miller.
Am I saying Bibby can’t compete with these guys? No. He can compete with some of them. And if he can be signed for reasonable money, then please do keep them. We’ve not had a veteran pg of his caliber in way too many years, and he can FINISH a game. However, the “future” doesn’t lie in Bibby’s hands. And the transition into the future at this position needs to begin in EARNEST. No more waiting around and just letting Bibby do everything for 35 or more mpg. Get somebody in here and groom them. If it’s Law, then let’s get the show on the road. If not, then get somebody else.
As for Josh Smith and what not…well, that’s a whole other story. And I’m tired…
Ernest
May 14th, 2009
7:08 am
I’d like to see a change in the PG position. I believe the Hawks play rely on the perimeter game too much and that type of PG would be best for the second unit. I don’t believe the Hawks are fully leveraging the athleticism the team has, which could result in a higher shooting percentage and more free throws, both accomplished by attacking the basket more.
I agree this is going to be an interesting off-season….
JustaThought
May 14th, 2009
7:27 am
There is a small window of oppurtunity coming for the eastern conference teams. LaBron will be leaving Cleveland after next season (ya gotta think he will…….too much money in NYC to pass up). So it’s important that the GM don’t screw this up. If it’s going to be a coaching change, now is the time to do it, but make sure it’s the right pick. I’m really kind of “stumped” about which way to go as far as players are concern. This team needs a leader in the worst way. I think that we all know by now that JJ can not get this team to the next level by himself(and I really believe Belkin knew this). JSmoove is too inconsistant and needs to mature. This team also needs a BENCH, a strong core 2nd unit.
David
May 14th, 2009
7:38 am
Everybody makes a big deal about how much this team improves and got to the second round, but I differ. The Eastern conference was weak and they won the first round againsta a bad team and got BLOWN OUT by Cleaveland. At least last year they pushed the NBA Champs to 7 games. My concern with Bibby is that he is a huge defensive liability and can’t break down teams to create opportunities for Horford and Josh. My concern with Josh is he still isn’t mature years later. And why is Josh at the 3 pt line when we start to run our plays? My concern with Woodson is that he is a Larry Brown disciple and we play very little defense at the most important times. My concern with Joe Johnson is that he disappears. My concern with Marvin and Horford is they haven’t been on the floor enough to know.
My concern with the team is that they have NO LEADER. My concern with the ownership is that they make $$millions on the Arena and seemingly have no plan on how to take this team to the next level, which afterall, is the only thing that matters.
Sekou Smith
May 14th, 2009
7:40 am
I don’t think LeBron is going anywhere. Seriously. Teams in the East better hunker down and prepare to deal with Cleveland the same way teams in the 90s had to hunker down and deal with Jordan and Chicago. Sam nailed it when he talked about this being the LeBron era on this side of the conference divide. And outside of the Lakers, I can’t think of a single team that runs an offense that doesn’t require a big time point guard (D. Fisher is no slouch and keep in mind that the Lakers didn’t sniff the NBA Finals again until he came back) to make it run better.
Jarett Jack
May 14th, 2009
7:44 am
Nice picture of me making a turnover. Look at my hands and the ball. The one time you use my picture its of me making a turnover. Nice one Sekou!
yessir
May 14th, 2009
7:44 am
smartguy glad your not the GM. You suck!!!! and do you mykhalc. Fire them from the blog Sekou
Clyde
May 14th, 2009
7:45 am
FIRE WOODY
yessir
May 14th, 2009
7:57 am
Oh I almost forgot, FIRE CLYDE!!!!!
Edo River
May 14th, 2009
8:06 am
I think alot of people are thinking what I am thinking: we are stuck behind a)LeBron, b) KG, and c) Howard. It might always be that way as long as these guys have enough support. I think is that can we find enough complimentary parts to make up for the superstar in the middle of the other teams? LeBron and Howard are going to be in the East for a lonnnnnnnnnng time. If we want to reach the promiced land, we have to find a way to make a team that will off-set their superstar shows. And I have not mentioned what Miami management may do to find support D-wade (could one of our guys end up in Miami feeding off of D-wade’s assists?
BE
May 14th, 2009
8:09 am
First of all, Marvin must go. He has been a bust and should not be a NBA starter. He is a fine player off the bench. POINT GUARD? I love Bibby, but recognize that the hawks need someone who can drive and breakdown the defense to dish it off or pull up for a quick jumper. The effective guards in the NBA are quick and unfortunately this is not Bibby. Bibby is a solid leader and he made the hawks better, but he will not take us to the next level. We have to have a slasher who can take the heat off of Johnson and be able to drive and kick it out to others.
I also think Woodson should go. Simply because he refuses to develop players on the bench. Acie Law should have been getting more playing time all year. You have to develop the future and Woodson doesn’t do that. We also need someone who can communicate with Josh Smith. So much potential being wasted, because a coach cannot get it thru Josh’s thick head to quit shooting shots from a distance. He ignores Woodson
mountain_jim
May 14th, 2009
8:13 am
I want Woody gone yesterday. He has sufficated too much potential in too many players. I like the Jack idea, and giving Acie a chance to dev with him. Have to trade someone for a defensive and rebounding center.
Trick Daddy
May 14th, 2009
8:35 am
“And outside of the Lakers, I can’t think of a single team that runs an offense that doesn’t require a big time point guard (D. Fisher is no slouch and keep in mind that the Lakers didn’t sniff the NBA Finals again until he came back) to make it run better.”
SEKOU AINT THAT THE TRUTH. MOST TEAMS DO NOT HAVE A SUPERSTAR LIKE LEBRON OR KOBE OR WADE. THE TEAMS THAT ARE NEAR THOSE GUYS TEAMS LEVEL HAVE GOOD OR GREAT POINT GUARDS. JOE IS NOT THAT SUPERSTAR TYPE SO YOU KNOW THE HAWKS BETTER HAVE A GOOD OR GREAT POINT GUARD JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE TRIES TO. AS LONG AS WOODY IS HERE THE HAWKS HAVE TO HAVE A GOOD POINT GUARD ANYWAY BECAUSE OTHERWISE THEY WILL HAVE NO CHANCE AT PLAYING ANY SORT OF GOOD OFFENSE. WOODY CANT COACH OFFENSE FOR $HIT.
Clyde
May 14th, 2009
8:35 am
I like Jack but I would love to see Andre Miller in a Hawks uniform. I remember watching him play against Baron Davis and Jason Terry at the summer league they had up at Life when they were rookies. He stood out the most because he’s such a smart player.
FIRE WOODY
rodney
May 14th, 2009
8:39 am
RESIGN BIBBY!! Trade Williams or Smith, 2nd rnd pick(2010) and Law to Raptors for Bosh and Jose Calderon(Calderon can help spread the floor). Move Hardford to PF and Smith or Williams will play SF. Keep Flip and Evans, make sure ZaZa is happy. Get rid of that bum Speedy and use his salary to get a quality backup for Bibby. Don’t forget Jonny Flynn, Jeff Teague and Ty Lawson)Please develope Mario West, I seen a few games where he played some good D on some of the best offensive players in the game, but at the same time he look lost on offense. He was one of the few players that look like they weren’t scared of LeBron size and he did ok against Kobe in the last game against them. Woodson gotta develope his young players Solomon Jones need to go to big man camp he got a lil raw game that can make him a legit back upif he work on his post game this off season
Dan
May 14th, 2009
8:39 am
The talk of Acie Law being the answer at PG is just stupid. Some of you are starting to sound like the people who swore Salim Staudimire was the second coming of Reggie Miller. Where is Salim playing these days?
Face it…Acie is not going to play here. And, no, he is not going to go star somewhere else, so losing him is not that big of deal. The Hawks have to resign Bibby. If they don’t, then they have to bring in a stud replacement.
Like all of you, I do not want to go back to the dark days of winning only 20 + games. Having a good PG (Bibby!) will help keep that from happening.
Kenny Powers
May 14th, 2009
8:54 am
Good one J Jack!! Way to turn the ball over in your picture when we are considering picking you up!!
Keep Bibby and Smith, deal Johnson and Williams for a 12ft. bald eastern europe block a$$hole or a rebounding “worm” like rodman.
John Brown's Body
May 14th, 2009
8:54 am
Sekou … it’s great to see your obsessive slurping of J-Smoove is waning. You and his sycophants (starting with his kin) have created an almost uncoachable player. He’s not alone in that, certainly, among his ilk. Did Dr J have an ilk? I don’t think so.
Kenny Powers
May 14th, 2009
8:54 am
Oh, and somebody kick Acie Law the XVIIMMNMXII in the nuts.
Barry
May 14th, 2009
9:09 am
Hey Y’all:
Yes, the Hawks have to make some moves. They have the point guard they need and that is Bibby and Flip Murray. Bibby, however, is more polished and experienced in what the Hawks are doing. Letting him go would be a risk considering what we looked like before he came to Atlanta. And that was a horrible site with rookie guards who Woodson would not let control the game. It is scary to trade Bibby and draft a rookie guard because we know Woodson and his staff does not know how to coach rookie point guards. Bibby survived and trived because Woodson could not coach Bibby and put him in the “dog house” because Bibby was an established point guard in the NBA and lead quality teams. Woodson would not dare embarrass him. To play it safe, if we let Bibby go, we better get a good veteran point guard who Woodson can not destroy the players ego. I believe if Chis Paul or Devon Williams would have came here as rookies, Woodson would have destroyed their ego and young careers with his controling ways over rookies, especially point guards. He takes the creativity away from rookie point guards because in drafting them he did not really know these players game as he does the established veterans he is familiar with in the NBA. In short, he does not give great rookie players an opportunity to excell. Therefore, as long as Woody is here, we need not draft a great rookie point guard out of college. He would desroy their game and career. It is best we look for establish veteran point guards in the league.
More than that, WE NEED A CENTER.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
This is a SECRET from a HAWK FAN!! TELL EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cj Steele
May 14th, 2009
9:11 am
I give Bibby credit for the games the Hawks won the past year and a half hes helped them alot. But they could have won alot more games if that dude could defend and penetrate more. He never put any type of pressure on the defense. He got guys in the right places to score but you gotta play both ends the floor.
dap01
May 14th, 2009
9:16 am
Thanks Sekou for a good column.
Quality PG play is important, but Bibby is clearly able to supply a small part of a successful PG. He can play no defense, name one PG is the league that is less mobile. He can not penetrate, he can only shoot. Shooting and experience are great and necessary skills but he should be paid and he should be played like the ROLE player that he is. Bibby should play only 20 minutes per game. AC or someone else who have other skills should play the remaining.
doc
May 14th, 2009
9:19 am
yup, that is right sekou and it doesnt take much knowledge to understand that the cavs are in the drivers seat for a while. i guess sund has to begin thinking in terms of what it takes to unseat them. maybe that should be the emphasis here on the blog as well. personally, i dont think they are indestructible and in this era legends and dynasties are short. many thought after 06 the spurs were young and on a run, now they look old just three short years later and out after the first round for the first time in 10 years. i thought healthy we would make the cavs struggle a bit with the team we had. maybe the late addition of joe smith would have made a difference between the teams in the regular season, dont know even if healthy; that is the type of move true contenders make as we sat quietly.
right now i am not sure it was all about health either. i would like to think so but doubt it as i see debver move on and the lakers get pressed to get out of glide mode. we never made the cavsdo that. agree with both you and najeh, josh wasnt the reason we lost the last game. as well as he played it wasnt his best game either. so with that, i say he was one of the ones that kept us from winning; that is not complimentary. there were many holding that brand of lets get to next year but as good as josh is we see it when he mails it in. the ultimate example of where their heads and hearts were at the beginning of the game was when bibby and josh watched west get a ball they both should have gotten themselves but expected the other to go get. gee both had a chance at it and i was flabbergasted to see no frigging movement by either guy. why am i sitting in the seats yelling then? it was sad to see josh point to bibby as to why didnt you challenge it when he should have been saying my bad as well.
it was also about no heart there in the end when their butts were up against the wall. they were wishing it was over and they got what they wanted. could they have won the series? no. could they have competed? uh yes. there is the rub for me and it is more than one man. the guys seem to be nice around each other but they arent quite gelling on the court if there isnt perfect allignment or the there is a missing piece or two, which is my guess, duh, but which piece?
personally, i hope it isnt wholesale turnover. it will bring out the worst in woody. then it still goes back to the same refrain doesnt it? we need a point guard and a long in the middle. i wonder if in his year of watching sund has gotten that idea yet? at some point we have to consider also do we want to pressure the ball at the start of a possession or in the paint or both? certainly if it is the former we need a different kind of point guard than bibby. if we prefer the latter then we need desperately to shore up the inside with about three more guys with bulk and length. otherwise we go no where but down.
i hope woody sits down and does a good josh and bad josh video. for that matter the whole team needs one.
as far as the chills thing, it was still a mistake to not put more effort into signing him. i saw energy when he came in each time, can anyone say that is what we got with mo coming off the bench?good guy needing to fill to big a void. orlando made the right move in seeing he didnt fit into their long term needs. he is now with us another two years and he wont get better is my guess. unfortunately, cant say the same about flip and he isnt a sure return. wrong step, cant afford to many more of those. flip was the replacement in energy, only we need it in a bigger package.
well rambling a bit obviously as many things come to mind with so many questions about the hawks at the crossroads. joe, think we can expect more organic growth? doubt it and think that window of opportunity is now gone due to contract issues if nothing else. that said, we may be in a new era and maybe the economy will work in our favor this time instead of catch us napping in the case of chills. going to be an interesting summer to say the least. got over a low bar and now have the mantle similar to the falcons, can we have two years in a row of winning seasons? that question and answer is firmly on sund’s shoulders. next bar now that we finally got some success.
now let us watch lebron get his ring then see how he handles it.
Syd
May 14th, 2009
9:19 am
Before mgmt makes any moves……one name……..Isiah Rider……..and all the crap that ensued
Sam Wetherson
May 14th, 2009
9:20 am
How many of you guys actually watch Hawks games. I keep hearing the trade Marvin, trade Marvin chants. That would probably be the dumbest move we could make this offseason. He is out best defender by far. You guys let that dunks and blocks fool you but the player we need to move is Josh Smith. Marvin is one of the few players in the league that can give Lebron James trouble defensively. He doesn’t do stupid things on the floor and is efficient as hell. He is a good player who is only getting better. Trade him and watch him go to another team and be a star.Josh can’t play SF or PF Josh Smith can’t play man on man defense to save his life. We are either going to charge ahead or fall back into the pack. What games are you guys watching!!!
Syd
May 14th, 2009
9:21 am
Oh and if J. Smith doesn’t improve that jumper……….a shock collar that goes off outside the paint.
asdf2
May 14th, 2009
9:23 am
What about Marc Gasol? We need a center. The boy is going to be a beast, maybe even better than his bro.
Astro Joe
May 14th, 2009
9:27 am
Sekou, I think Hinrich makes around $26M for the next 3 years. Hardly expensive for a PG capable of hitting the open jumper, plays tenacious defense, has playoff experience and is young enough that he isn’t on the downside of his career. And he doesn’t seem to be the type to wilt under pressure.
Steak Shapiro from 790TheZone was able to watch the Hawks’ Draft Room activities the evening when Jarrett Jack was available. Shapiro claims that BK tried multiple times to acquire a later draft pick to get Jack, that he liked him a lot and was disappointed that his attempts to grab him failed. Personally, I’d choose Acie over Jack. And Hinrich, Sessions, Farmar & Bibby over both of them.
Sund has a lot of pieces to work with when you include Childress, David Andersen and Speedy’s expiring contract. If the owners give him a budget to work with, he should be able to get things done.
Egins26Ali
May 14th, 2009
9:29 am
Nice Blog and good commentary.
We need to keep Bibby if we could get him at half the price and groom AC Law. I can’t for the life of me understand why Woody will not play him consistently. We still don’t know what we have in him. I think we definitely need a Big!!!! With a decent defensive playing Big man & Josh at the 3 with Horford at the 4 we are a better team. I like Marvin and he still has great upside, so if we can keep him and make him a 6th man that makes or bench stronger, provided we can keep ZaZa & Flip. I don’t feel that we are that far away and with a better offensive scheme, what we have now and a defensive minded athletic center we could raise some hell next year.
That being said, there is no doubt that Woody needs to grow as a coach & Josh as a player. Get an assistant to run the offense and force Josh to shoot 16 to 20 foot jumpers all offseason. Lastly, Sekou what about Tyson Chandler since they were trying to give him away last year? Better yet, trade Marvin, AC, the rights to Childress & our 1st round pick for Chris Paul & pick up a center!!!!!!
I MUS.WRITE
May 14th, 2009
9:47 am
I dont think it will matter what players we bring in if we’re running the same ol tired offense……Coach Woodson wont be fired even tho i wouldnt object- The ASG desperately needs to bring in an assistant to run the offense.
AC might be a product of Woody’s bogus offense, but in two years time I have seen absolutely no improvement from the guy and im tired of waiting so i say lets cut the cord on him Speedy,Thomas Gardner,and Randolph Morris.
I would like to pick up J.Jack or R.Sessions in the off season -both would be good fits, I would resign bibbz for about 8 mill -He’s doesnt penetrate or play D well but his shooting is really valuable to a team that doesnt play inside out.
Josh Smith…….Do we really beleve he will come around? I dont know -what i do know is -he is still gonna be horrible from 3,argue every call, One man fast break (turnover), Start next season sleep walking- With all that said I would not trade the guy he does to much for our team, but hopefully after 6 yrs in the league he will wake up and take his game even higher. Jumper after jumper Josh 3,000 a day until it becomes second nature.
Hollins from Dallas may be worth a look as well as Tyson Chandler for the Center spot…… Resign Flip and ZAZA
rainman
May 14th, 2009
9:49 am
Hey Sekou, could you give me your opinion on a couple of things?
1. Rank our players as to their trade value — either a straight trade or a sign and trade.
2. How would you like to see our front line reconfigured? Do you agree that Horford should not be the long term starting center? Who would you rather see start at PF – Horford or Josh? Does Josh have the range to start at SF? If we aquired a decent center and resign Marvin, could you see Horford and Josh splitting time at PF with Al getting additional minutes at C and Josh with some minutes at SF?
The PG situation has been discussed at length — I’m just saying, I’d rather be in Chicago’s position with Rose and Noah than the Hawks with Bibby/Law and Horford at 1 and 5.
Astro Joe
May 14th, 2009
9:50 am
doc, we have maybe one more year of organic growth. In the sense that if we did bring back our entire front court and if they each played 78 games, we would surely win another 5-8 games and would have been far more competitive. Marvin was having a terrific year as a defender. Horford was showing signs of a low-post game. Josh’s injury resulted in him losing his all-world impact on the defensive end.
But even if all of those guys are healthy, I truly believe that they are mostly finesse players. The fact that our toughest front-court player is Zaza is something that needs to be addressed, sooner than later. I don’t care if Horford returns with Hakeem-like low post moves, Smith comes back shooting like Larry Bird and Marvin becomes Jamal Mashburn… if all three shrink under adversity then those skills will be meaningless. Isn’t that what they say about the former MVP in Dallas? No one can question his skill set or talent. You’ve gotta have heart. All you really need is heart. I’m not sure that Al, Joe, Josh and Marvin have heart.
I MUS.WRITE
May 14th, 2009
9:51 am
ASDF2….I forgot all about Marc Gasols, I would like to get him in here to play next to AL……….
Daniel
May 14th, 2009
9:53 am
Sekou,
That was a great blog. Keep ‘em coming. I agree that point guard is the most important position on the team, and I like Bibby. I am almost less concerned about the amount of his contract than the length. Three years is the most I would give him, but I am sure he wants four. Three at around 18-20 milion would be ideal. I also really like Jack as an option, Andre Miller is nice, but I bet he will get even more than Bibby. I also love Biedrins from Golden State. I have no idea what it would take to get him though. I would also trade Marvin before Josh, even with Josh’s inconsistency I am scared of Marvin’s injuries.
brad
May 14th, 2009
9:54 am
What about Flip. He was the most important man off the bench game after game. We let Terry go a few seasons ago and now what is he doing? Concentrate on signing Flip and getting a center who gets garbage. We have Joe’s contract next year. It’s something wrong when 3 or 4 defensive players are always trying to get the ball out of Joe’s hand and no one else is making the situation better on a consistency basis. Za Za is the next one we need to sign after Flip. Trade Marvin while he still has value.
Sautee
May 14th, 2009
9:58 am
“And the transition into the future at this position needs to begin in EARNEST. No more waiting around and just letting Bibby do everything for 35 or more mpg. Get somebody in here and groom them. If it’s Law, then let’s get the show on the road. If not, then get somebody else.”
LOL Ray,
Didn’t we say EXACTLY that this time LAST year?
Yes, we did until Woodson came out in an article saying he had done a poor job of getting Acie going. I guess we’ll hear the same thing again soon.
JuniorBridgeman
May 14th, 2009
9:59 am
The problem with the Hawks is that they know that they did not give their best efforts in the Cleveland AND Miami series. The series with Miami shouldnt have taken seven games and I think that drained the energy of the Hawks when they came up to playing Cleveland. Had the Hawks swept the Heat in four games; they would have been fully rested for Cleveland and the guys would have been fresh to destroy the Cavs. Its really unfortunate because I think it is the Hawks who should be playing the winner of the Orlando/Boston series with the roster that they currently have/with NO ADDITIONS TO THE ROSTER. In addition, I think the Hawks have enough players to win the title with their current roster in tact. Thats just my opinion in how I have analyzed the Hawks. If all the players give you maximum effort, the Hawks can complete with anybody in the league. Unfortunately, they will all not give you maximum effort and thereby causes the problem with the Hawks. The problem with the Hawks is there is inconsistency in their effort. Next year, I hope the Hawks suck it up on the road and learn how to be road warriors whether they add players to their roster or not. Some of the players I would like to see them acquire I have chronicled in previous blogs: James Posey, Chris Paul, Antonio McDyess and Ben Gordon to name a few. If the Hawks could acquire some or all of those guys they would have experienced a substantial upgrade to their roster ready to advance to at least the Eastern Conference finals. The Hawks MUST continue to improve because as I said before, if they dont go out and make reckless changes to their roster or snap decisions, the Hawks still currently possess enough talent to win an NBA championship, even with Mike Woodsen as your head coach.
Shannon
May 14th, 2009
10:05 am
Sekou
Why in the world are you not calling for the removal of Woodson? That would solve a lot of problems and anything we say otherwise will not work with him as coach!!!!!!!!
Egins26Ali
May 14th, 2009
10:06 am
I could deal with Gasol. To Astro Joe I also could deal with Hinrich but I disagree about your heart comment. I think Horford is plenty tough and has heart, Joe as well he was just fatigued. Sund needs to make some demands on Woody with respect to player development and bench play. As I aforementioned, we have what we need minus a good center and if we can’t acquire a center then we need a superstar guard who can both penetrate and shoot!!!!!!
Sekou what do you think about giving up all those #1’s for Chris Paul. Although highly unlikely would you or any of you consider it.
LukeMerriman
May 14th, 2009
10:19 am
Directive from Upper Management: Josh Smith needs to be told by his superiors to quit dribbling the basketball downcourt unless he intends to change his position from forward to point guard. Mike Bibby is already assigned with the task of dribbling the ball down court. We could have won game 4 with Cleveland in fourth quarter when we were down by 4 points Josh turned the ball over as he dribbled down court, couldnt decide who to pass the ball to and then coughed it up by turning it over and allowing it to be stolen from him. If we had scored a 3-pointer on that play we are down by 1 point with the momentum clearly shifting in the Hawks direction. Instead, as the ball was stolen the Cavs went down the court and made a 3-pointer so instead of being down by 1 we were trailing by seven and then the game got away from us. WE CAN ALL THANK JOSH SMITH FOR THAT TURN OF EVENTS SINCE HE STILL CONTINUES TO PLAY THE ROLE OF A POINT GUARD, ALTHOUTH HE IS PAID MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO BE A FORWARD. I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND WHY HE IS ALLOWED TO DO THAT.
Khao$
May 14th, 2009
10:25 am
Thank you Sekou for being the voice of reason. Most expected us to win the Miami series and then get bounced by Cleveland. That’s exactly what happened (albeit in a more embarrasing way than expected). Still, Josh Smith was hardly the blame for our losses. Had Joe scored his average during the playoffs, maybe we’d have a chance. However, one could argue that Joe didn’t score his average because Woody ran him into the ground during the season. You could blame our showing on Marvin and Al. Or you could say that our bench wasn’t developed enough to take up the slake. Bottom line is, we need to let Sund do his job. Quick snap judgements put this team in a bad place in the past (Smith for Rider). I, for one, don’t want to live through that again. Adjustments to the roster must be made. However, EVERY aspect of this team must be evaluated.
Personally, the only part I think should go is Woody. Yes, the team has improved each year. However, I’d argue you’re supposed to with a starting five filled with first rounders (Joe 10th overall, Josh 17th, Al 3rd, Marvin 2nd, Bibby 2nd (?)). We haven’t had an offense since he got here. Josh is bone headed. But at least parts of his game (post moves studied with Hakeem) have improved. Joe has become an all star (I charge that to having more minutes and the few plays in Woody’s playbook being catered towards him). Bibby shot a higher 3 point percentage (he was clutch before he got with Woody), Marvin acquired a 3 point shot (on his on volition he went back to UNC and worked on it). My arguement is guys have improved. However their improvement doesn’t correlate with Woody’s coaching.
If the Spirit is really in the winning business, this is the year to get him out. He has one year left. Avery Johnson is out there. He’d establish a style of play and make guys play defense (he made Dirk play defense!).
I’d hate to see guys leave the team and thrive with another before we see how they’d perform under and different head coach. If we can’t get him out of here, we need to bring in an “offensive coordinator” (in the same vein as a Tex Winters) that can get this offense rolling. We have good pieces. However, I don’t think the head guy knows how to use them.
EAST ATLANTA HAWKS FAN 1971
May 14th, 2009
10:27 am
HAWKS FANS AND THE WOODY HATERS ALL WE NEED IS TO KEEP EVERYBODY BUT BRING IN ONE LEGIT BIGMAN,LIKE BOSH OR OMARE STOUTMERE AND WE`LL BE OKAY
yetta
May 14th, 2009
10:29 am
Go ahead and trade Josh,HA HA HA! Then watch him on another team(SuperStar) as we have seem so many other players we traded in the pass. Yes, he misses jump shots, but who leads our team in points each game and always plays to win? JOSH SMOOVE!!!!!!!!
yetta
May 14th, 2009
10:31 am
One more thing: we need a big center!!!!!
Keeping It Real
May 14th, 2009
10:31 am
The only thing the Hawks need is to convince Josh Smith to play within his ability and his position. He is not a point guard or a outside small forward that can shoot the rock or slash to the hoop. He is a power forward who needs to post up, set screens for the pick and roll and play strong defense. He is not Labron James. If he does not listen to coach Woodson, he will not listen to anyone. He is a ledgend in his own mind now. If he does not change, then he needs to be sent packing to another team. One man cannot make a complete team unless you are a Wade, Jordan, James, Bryant or Pierce. Josh is neither.
Joshua
May 14th, 2009
10:34 am
Look first you fire Woodson nice assistant horrible head coach. Second try and sign and trade Marvin Williams in a package deal to a team like Portland with Acie Law for say Travis Outlaw and Sergio Rodriguez. You get two starters for one. Draft Derrick Brown Eric Maynor or Gani Lawal but do not draft BJ Mullens or whatever other guy spouts that dirty word POTENTIAL. Find a safe bet free agent like Antonio McDyesse and re sign ZaZa Flip and Mike. Then do what you should’ve last year hire a proven coach like Doug Collins and Avery Johnson . But of course these idiots will draft Mullens with no one to teach him. Let the f/a’s walk and sign d-leaguers to replace them and retain the biggest idiot in coaching. SOMETIMES I HATE BEING A HAWKS FAN.
terrell barron
May 14th, 2009
10:43 am
I disagree on the Bibby thing Sekou, The Hawks coulda locked up the 4th seed in the East this year with a pg like Steve Blake, Aaron Brooks, Anthony Carter, Chris Duhon, Antonio Daniels, Bobby Jackson, Luke Ridnhour, or Earl Watson. These guys are avg. at best pg’s. Thats all I see from Bibby. Avg. I think he’s helped this team, dont get me wrong, but I refuse to give him man-love for being avg. You also forgot to mention who he took over for. HE REPLACED T-LUE AND AJ, for crying out loud. You cant go anywhere but up, after replacing one of those clowns. We better not over pay for an avg pg, when we can get a guy like one of the before mentioned for a few mill. Just my 2 cents. And btw , I agreed with Jeff Schultz, when he said we need to consider moving JJ, not Josh Smith. There’s no telling what a contender would give up to get a guy like Joe. He’s almost 28 years old. How much further can he take us? Just being real. Mike Bibby and Joe Johnson = 40-50 wins, a playoff spot, and a couple of 1st rd series wins. That’s about it fellas. Just think about it for a minute. I like both guys, really I do. Just trying to be honest.
Marcus
May 14th, 2009
10:49 am
Finally, a voice (blog) of reason. Too much knee-jerk/emotional/disappointment-driven commentary andf blogging until yesterday on M. Bradley’s blog.
Are the Hawks flawed? yup, but a sound rational approach needs to be taken vs. the “blow it-up-and-start-over” approach that we read on blogs and probably hear on sports radio.
We do have a short window, as evidenced by past potential risers who had maybe 2-3 years to crack through. Strategic personnel decisions will ultimately determine our fate, not over-reacting to running into the buzzsaw that are the Cleveland Cavaliers.
I think we do need some toughness/vets to perform a similar role to PJ Brown (08 Celtics) and others on past successful teams. Regardless of what we do with Bibby, we need our PG-of-the future, whehter he is already on the bench, currently on someone elses roster or waiting in the wings on draft night.
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
10:51 am
Every one who said ac cant get the job done how do you no base on what woody have never gave him a chance at all and when he do play its only 4min and soon as he make a mistake woody pull him out of the game how can you develop confindence like that you cant.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
terrell barron
May 14th, 2009
10:53 am
And ATL, please stop it with the Josh Smith to the 3 comment. It’s drives me crazy when I hear that. People scream at Philips Arena when he shoots, yet, some of you still believe he should be moved to sf. Wow!
terrell barron
May 14th, 2009
10:55 am
And one more thing ATL,Bibby for 8 mill? No way. Not picking on you man, just disagreeing with about everything you’ve said. lol!
O'brien
May 14th, 2009
10:55 am
Astro Joe, I like Hinrich as well. But he is under contract, and I dont know if we have the pieces to trade with the Bulls. I like Sessions and Jack, and I think they are free agents (Jack is restricted I think).
Does anybody really believe that if the Hawks had a deep bench, that Woody would know how to use them? I’m sorry, but I have no confidence in Woody from a strategic standpoint.
For those who say Salim is a waste of talent, have you guys seen what Eddie House is doing in Boston? His #1 job is to make shots. JJ Reddick’s first 2 years, he did nothing, and he was a lottery pick. Now that VanGundy has given him PT (although his defense is atrocious), he makes shots. When Joe gets double teamed, Salim could hit shots. I agree that he needs to work on his defense, and he needs coaching, but he still has potential to be a good jump shooter and a contributor off the bench. Royel Ivey became a contributor after he left the Hawks, Boris Diaw has played well (in Phoenix and Charlotte). A big reason is Woody and his lack of an offensive system. Players have deficiences, but a good coach can create a system that hides their deficiencies, while accentuating their positives. For example, Josh has no jump shot, so run plays for him in the post (consistently). Bibby is a defensive liability, so stop switching him. Woody has a big influence on these players, and it is mostly negative.
Sekou, how come no mention about Woody being fired or extended?
terrell barron
May 14th, 2009
10:59 am
Bowman, You hit the nail in the coffin at 12:59 a.m. Woody is not the answer.
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
10:59 am
If woody stay one more year it will be a waste and avery johnson will be gone.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
doc
May 14th, 2009
11:01 am
joe, the organic issue is economic and contract dependent and what i was referring to. in past days with less player movement one could play that game longer. my guess is they keep the nucleus of josh al and jj for now. that is all the organic possible unless the economy allows us to sign some of the guys we have become fond of, well most of us. it is going to be fun this summer because the possibilities are from nil to huge. guess we can all have many opinions on that one. my what are the possible combinations and permutations on that? as buzz would say …. on to infinity!
terrell barron
May 14th, 2009
11:04 am
Darrell Starks, Bosh and Josh Smith on the same team? At what positions?
BobPorter
May 14th, 2009
11:08 am
Avery Johnsons agent needs to be called immediately regarding the Hawks head coaching position. From what I can tell, there will be a vacancy there soon when Woodsen either resigns or gets kicked out.
Marcus
May 14th, 2009
11:38 am
Found article on David Andersen
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/David-Andersen-5222/
One question is: whth his skill set, would he bring toughness needed in the front court or is he another Dirk Nowitski?
Is that what the Hawks need?!?!? uhhhhhhhh, not convinced.
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
11:38 am
Terrell barron do want championship or do you want mediocrity i want champion ship and im sure everyone on here want the same.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
david
May 14th, 2009
11:39 am
Start next year with Coach Woodson and Bibby as the point guard for the next two or three years will almost do me in. Everybody’s talking about all these problems. This is all on Woodson’s watch. Get a new coach, a successful experienced coach with different eyes, alot of these problems go away. Johnson and Josh and Horford, Marvin, Flip etc.. can be awesome or can be questioned to co-exist. It’s all about the general.
Sekou Smith
May 14th, 2009
11:45 am
Not my job to call for Woody’s head rainman and anyone else calling for me to do so. That’s the sort of opinion I have to leave to the cats that get paid to do that (Bradley, Schultz). And even if I was allowed to say something on the matter one way or another, do you think it has any impact on what is ultimately done with Woodson? It’s ridiculous.
As far as trade value for the Hawks’ existing players, Joe and Josh are the most valuable because they are the most talented and highest paid. Marvin and Speedy are tied for second because of their good-sized salaries and contract status. You can’t even entertain trading Al because of his value combined with his $4.3 million salary for next season. There’s no need to rank the rest.
A frontcourt that includes Josh and Al is a fantastic start in my book. A bigger body to fill it out works great. But I’d need a guy that is a physical force and shot blocker/intimidator down there as opposed to an offensive-minded big man. If he had some of those skills as well, though, it would be a bonus. It just seems to me the Hawks could sacrifice a scoring option for a true role player, as in someone whose main focus would be doing something other than look for a shot on offense (a la Andy Varejao).
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
11:49 am
Terrell barron this is what i will do 1st bring in a coach who can take this team to another level and i think avery can do that 2nd do what every it take to bring back chill 3rd clear cap space to make a trade for a player who command double team we have only joe who command double team 4th build around joe and josh.
GO HAWWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WhatsUpWithAcie???
May 14th, 2009
11:50 am
Please can anyone say what happened with Acie Law? Mark Bradley sounds like 100% he will be traded. Im really trying to understand this. I know he was hurt. But he played ok to start the year. He even got his shot to start falling the last few games I saw him play. Is it taboo to talk about the real reason of what happened??? Everything and everybody else is talked about. I mean I know there has to be rift somewhere between him and Woodson. But what was it that got it started?? Did they have a fight? Did Acie piss him off?? Did he piss Acie off? WTF happened? No one can say WTF happened.
EJH
May 14th, 2009
11:57 am
Trade for a big? Need a new Point Guard. All of the things that people are saying is because of players you personally do not like. Even saying get rid of Woodson, that is even crazier when the man only has one year left on his contract. You give him the opportunity for one more year with this team and see where it goes. In these financial times why would you want to pay a coach who is fired and not coaching while paying the new coach also, that is stupid, ASG does not have Mark cuban or Paul Allen , or Mickey Arison money in Miami. If Sund is smart he does not mess with this team starting five, but what needs to happen is adding depth and size to the bench. Because the salary cap is going to shrink this year and teams do not have as much money to spend the hawks are one of very few teams in good position to wheel and deal, I said it before, add Wallace and McDyess, bring back Josh Childress, resign flip and Zsa Zsa, and leave the starting five alone.
We watched the Hawks go 31-10 at home and 17-24 on the road. The improvement for next season will be to maintain at home and become a better road team, winning is hostile enviroments, that then pushes you into maturity and over the hump to then becoming a legitimate contender. If your starters play 32 minutes per game and your bench plays 16 minutes per game, that is balance, that is 8 minutes per quarter for starters and 4 per quarter for the bench.
And for all the people who want trade 22 and 23 year old players for 30 year old players is bad business. Have anybody wondered why the lakers are having problems and the nuggets are not, because the lakers have older players and the nuggets have younger players around a veteran point guard who understands and knows how to run a team and win on the road and in the playoffs with young guys. The hawks are young and they just need that veteran guy who can help them get over the top. And by the way there are no dominant bigs in the NBA besides Howard, Yao, Bynum, Illgauskus, Duncan, Oden, try trading for one of those guys, because you are not going to get them so you are better off with what you have and adding those veterans that I spoke of earlier.
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
12:02 pm
First i like horford and marvin but this is bussiness and we want championship trade horford marvin and our 19pick for bosh sign hakim warrick in free agent do what every it take to bring in chill let acie blossom under avery my starting five ACIE, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, BOSH,
bench FLIP, EVANS, HAKIM WARRICK, SOLO, ZAZA.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
MannyT
May 14th, 2009
12:05 pm
Sekou, I love the topic.
We locals need to stop and take a breath or two before firing up the Armchair GM Guided Halucinations, yup AGGH.
I think I am done with local talk radio to hear all those guys talk like they actually paid attention to the Hawks from December to March. I don’t know how many more Judas for Jesus straight up trades I can bear to see/hear knowing that most don’t fit NBA rules even if some GM just wanted to do one before he got fired for being an idiot.
The local spin seems to be that the 2nd best Hawks player in the past 25 years would be lucky to get picked for an AAU game becuase he has had bad games in the playoffs. Funny how he sucks so much the coach tries to get 6 years of minutes from him in a 5 year contract.
I doubt the public will get a straight answer, but I hope Woody gives you a sense of what he wants in a roster (off the record), because it still seems to be a mystery to me. What does Woody want? I cannot imagine another fake starter PG (Royal Ivey). If he really wants Bibby back, I hope he has a plan to guard the opposing PG. If he is ok with Bibby walking, I hope he gets a replacement that he will actually develop. That Billups article was great, but I don’t see that happening here. Maybe it’s my lack of faith in Woody. I doubt Unc would say the same about the BWAF that he did about the Wanderer (aka Larry Brown.)
If we are honest, this level of play is a small notch below the Wilkins hey days when we went to the 2nd round and won some games before we lost the series. With the lack of superstars available, we need to find a grouping of players that are stronger together than as individuals a la the Pistons when Woody was there or the Cavs with Mark Price, Brad Dougherty and the rest. While it may not be Marvin, we will need someone physically similar to him to match up with LeBron, Paul Pierce, etc if we are to compete going forward.
If we get the defensive clogger for a center and a quick PG option that Woody will play, we will be better off next season. While LeBron & D. Howard will be around for awhile, the Celtics will get older really fast in the next few seasons, so we could move up to 3rd best record with the right moves.
…and kudos to the Landlord on joining the world of fatherhood.
BWAF
Shannon
May 14th, 2009
12:26 pm
Do we not list posts if we dare to disagree with someone????
GuntherWilson
May 14th, 2009
12:32 pm
Fire Woodsen and replace himwith Avery Johnson. Trade Marvin Williams, Mike Bibby and Zsa Zsa Pachulia to New Orleans for Chris Paul and James Posey. Acquire free agents Ben Gordon and Antonio McDyess. With those moves you know have the makings and all the ingredients of a powerful world championship team.
ILL-logical
May 14th, 2009
12:33 pm
A modest proposal:
Since all of the Hawks assistants are on 1 year contracts that are about to expire why not replace them with :
1. A guy like Paul Westhal, who would be tasked with the responsibility of creating and operating an offensive scheme that is built upon the strengths of our players and is flexible enough to adapt to counter moves by opposing coaches during the games. And given the authority to implement the changes!
2. Antonio Davis ,who lives in the metro area, would be an excellent choice to develop our bigs both physically and mentally.
3. There is also a guy who lives in the metro area by the name of Julius Winfield Erving III, who may know a little bit more about off court deportment issues than say,Duane Ferrell. IMJS.
There may have to be some roster tweaking-Houston is going to be bibby’s new home in my opinion- however developing the current roster’s skill sets and playing people in their “natural” positions ( Tayshun Prince started at 3 for the world champion Detroit Pistons and noone has ever accussed him of being an outside threat)and having a different leadership style ,ie supportive and encouraging while still demanding accountability will go a long way in the growth of this franchise.
Changes such as these will probably be met with no small amount of resistance from the current incumbant but they represent needed changes that are financially feasible and strategically based. He does have the option of moving on though.
Finally, congratulations to the entire organizations for an outstanding season!
Fred
May 14th, 2009
12:46 pm
Sekou: I generally agree with you about Josh Smith. But, I think it is fair to compare what has happeend with him and his inexplicable penchant for both taking ill-advised three pointers and dribbling the ball up court after a rebound (and invariably committing a turnover as he did once again at a key point in the last game against the Cavs) with a story I read about Big Baby’s game winner against the Celtics in game 5. Big Baby said that Doc Rivers told him he needed to work on that shot and if he came back and proved he could make it, Doc would allow him to take the shot. He did, he was allowed to take it, he took it and won the game. That is what I call coaching a coachable player. Now, either Mike Woodson cannot make that point, cannot command the resepct to demand commpliance, or Josh Smith is a great talent that is not coachable. But, to me, that story about Big Baby and Doc Rivers is the model that must be followed and whichever party to that necessary conversation is not on board needs to either get on board or go.
Large in the Pants
May 14th, 2009
12:50 pm
Fire the coach immediately, and build this team around Josh and Al.
Get rid of everyone else (even Flip and Zaza), and focus on BASKETBALL IQ going forward.
If the Magic lose tonight, make a deal with Satan to get Dwight Howard to play in his hometown.
Beezelbub
May 14th, 2009
12:53 pm
I’ll give you Dwight Howard for the Hawks’ first round draft pick and the soul of Michael Gearon, Jr.
Michael Gearon, Jr.
May 14th, 2009
12:53 pm
I have a soul?
Reggie
May 14th, 2009
12:58 pm
Sekou
Guys like Antonio McDyess & Marcin Gortat, I think are great fits for the hawks. What are the chances of the hawks going after one of those two guys?
kurih
May 14th, 2009
12:58 pm
barkingbulldawg@201am- how do you account for a hawks team that was worse last year, pushing a celtics team that was tougher last year to 7 games
Ayanna
May 14th, 2009
12:59 pm
Okay, fellow Hawks fans it’s time for us to think rationally and stop being so emotional. I will be the first to admit that I based my previous comments on attachments to my favorite player on the Hawks team. Admit it there are certain players that you just don’t want to see leave the team. But just like many have said before it’s all about business. So somebody’s gonna eventually have to go.
I’ve read comments of Hawks fans clowning Cleveland about Lebron going to New York. Who are we to talk when we don’t even want to let go of our so called okay, mediocre team with an honorable mention player. We say we want a championship team but we don’t want to make sacrifices to get there. The team may not need blowing up, but I tell you what it sure does need something.
I was tripping at first, but I’m not anymore. You can’t get something for nothing. I’m not so sure Mike Woodson is to blame anymore because on national tv I saw him tell the team to drive to the hole or get inside the paint or something like that. But right after he advised the team on this, I saw our coach on the floor (Mike Bibby) take a jumper. But that’s just one incident that I saw with my own eyes. So just say this we don’t know if it’s the coach messing up plays or the players not listening to the coach.
Forget it let’s just get right down to business:
1. Keep Woodson for at least to the end of his contract (one more season)- the economy dictates that.
2. Trade Joe Johnson-He’s the most valuable player on the team right now, teams will probably be more willing to part with players i.e. that point guard/ center that we need. If you don’t trade him before 2010 you risk loosing value that could get you those players the team so desperately needs.
3. Keep Josh Smith-He is a future All Star/Superstar if he could just get someone to help him establish an all around game and teach him how to be a professional and channel that emotion into his game in a positive way that helps the team not hinder it.
4. Keep Zaza Pachulia-He’s not afraid to bang around and be the enforcer on the team. Say what you will about his coordination, but the dude’s got heart.
5. Keep Flip Murray, Mario West, and Thomas Gardner-Flip, Mario, and Thomas seem to have that determination to succeed that inspires a team.
6.Get rid of Mike Bibby, Randolph Morris, and Speedy Claxton. These guys to me just don’t seem to want to be an Atlanta Hawk. There’s something about Mike Bibby I just don’t trust. Going against the coach’s advice on National tv confirmed my suspiscion.
7. Keep Al Horford-His long term value far outweighs his short term value. He’ an All Star waiting to happen. Plus he has basketball IQ and an awareness of the court. Who knows maybe in a few years along with Josh Smith we’ll be calling them double trouble.
8. Marvin Williams and Acie Law IV-You can keep them, trade them, get rid of them. Either way you can’t go wrong.
ZacheryGoldsmith
May 14th, 2009
1:00 pm
Fred: I totally agree with your blog. Josh Smith is totally uncoachable. I saw during the regular season where Josh Smith was dribbling the ball a lot, turning the ball over and making a bunch of mistakes and I said to myself, when the playoffs begin, maybe those things will get corrected. WRONG. During the playoffs Josh Smith was doing those exact same things and cost us a few playoff games. Smith wasnt the only culpret, but he couldnt help himself (as Hawks broadcaster Steve Holman pointed out at a critical time in the game when Josh Smith dribbled down the court and promptly turned the ball over as he has done during the regular season thousands of times). Josh Smith has the jumping ability AND the shooting ability to be a miniature LaBron James. The queston is WILL JOSH work in the offseason to become this type of player. If he does, the Hawks should be winning the title soon. But first lets fire Woodsen, replace him with Avery Johnson before you even begin another season. I cannot stomach another season under Mike Woodsen because Woodsen will not discipline the team to become great.
phoenix falcon
May 14th, 2009
1:00 pm
the hawks need a COACH, the talent is there, the coaching is not.
Daniel
May 14th, 2009
1:04 pm
Trading Joe Johnson is a terrible idea. How is Phoenix doing now?
Those kind of moves always end up hurting in the long run. We don’t need to panic. With a better inside presence, Joe will be a great 1B type of player. We all recognize he is not a stand alone superstar. There are plenty of options at point without using a trade. Now in terms of a big we may have to make a move, but Marvin is the most likely choice of trade bait.
Daniel
May 14th, 2009
1:05 pm
Woodson disciplined Josh several times throughout the season. He is not the problem. Bench depth and a big with scoring ability are our problems. Obviously, we need to address point first.
SilverSlipper
May 14th, 2009
1:07 pm
Dont you dare bring in Dwight Howard. Howard is a dunker who is a great shot blocker. Thats all Howard is. Howard cannot take over a game in the fourth quarter with offensive skills because he doesnt have any. When you watch the ESPN highlights on Howard, you see him flex his muscles like Superman, block shots and dunk the ball about 10 times a game. Thats what Dominique Wilkins used to be until he learned how to shoot. Dont bring in Howard unless you’re bringing him here to win the slam dunk contest.
Ayanna
May 14th, 2009
1:07 pm
Whoops, I forgot about Othello Hunter and Mo Evans.
9. I say keep them, these guys showed promise. They’re just quite easy to forget.
Joe Johnson
May 14th, 2009
1:10 pm
I can’t seem to shake you guys. Everywhere I turn, you’re all up in my face. What’s up?
Jacques
May 14th, 2009
1:12 pm
Don’t worry, Hawks fans: this post-season was just a heat check.
newkid
May 14th, 2009
1:13 pm
After having ‘evaluated’ for a year, even if Sund were to have taken a decision 30 seconds after the last loss to Cleveland it could hardly have been termed a ’snap’ decision. And if, consistent with timing that comports with the terms of the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Sund were to make several moves this summer that involve saying goodbye to several players currently on the roster, I hope we don’t irrationally conclude that he’s inadvisedly ‘breaking up the team’. There are perhaps team-building moves that could have – and maybe should have – been made last year that were postponed (for whatever reasons) to this year. Those ‘last year’ moves, when coupled with moves contemplated for this coming off-season, may appear to some too much to do at once. Multiple moves this summer shouldn’t necessarily be viewed as the sort of fire sale BK executed shortly after his arrival, or some ill-advised moves in the late 1990s.
In his year of evaluation I hope Sund hasn’t gotten so enamored with the home grown pieces that he refuses to pull the trigger on measured moves that are calculated to catapult this team to the next level. There seems to be an awful lot of ‘home cooking’ affecting the cautions being offered up in these parts. Sure we’d like to retain ‘our own’ pieces, but only if we can’t markedly improve the team’s chances of hoisting the O’Brien trophy by moving one or more of ‘our own’ along for someone else’s. And if those we move along happen to do exceptionally well elsewhere, while we enjoy the parade on Peachtree, then we should wish them all the best. No need to fear someone going off and becoming a star elsewhere, so long as we become a better team as a consequence.
bigjohnhawksfan
May 14th, 2009
1:13 pm
Definitely keep Othello. He looks like he has the size and speed to make a difference.
cleveland steamer
May 14th, 2009
1:15 pm
As long as by “home grown pieces” you mean Dwight Howard, I’m game.
Ayanna
May 14th, 2009
1:23 pm
Definitely trade Joe Johnson if it will get the team that true point guard and center. Anybody know of a way for the Hawks to get Danny Granger? He just got the most improved player award. He’d be great on a team that has improved to the point of being an okay team. Is he a forward or a guard? We should make him our new shooting guard.
Astro Joe
May 14th, 2009
1:33 pm
Sekou any word on the injuries to Horford and Marvin? Will they require surgeries or will rest and rehab get them back into shape?
GeeMack
May 14th, 2009
1:37 pm
Guys chill with the fire Woody talk. The man has done an excellent job. If any one thinks this team underacheived you are sadly mistaken. That’s the only way a coach should be fired.
The way to improve the team is to make tweaks not overhaul the team. Ther two guys that can improve this team K. Hinrich and C. Kaman. Too many big men in LAC. Too many PG’s in Chi town.
In house adjustments move Josh to the 3 he is not a PF. Thats why we getting killed on the boards. Move AL to the 4 he is not a center. Make Woody hire and offensive coordinator like Clevland did this year and they had more movement in their offense. Hinrch is just as good of shooter as Bibby but better defender and penetrator.
kirkinga
May 14th, 2009
1:41 pm
When it comes to Mike Bibby, opinions have been made since he first arrived and precious few have changed during his tenure with the Hawks. Those of us who favor Bibby remember what it was like before he got here. We see the wins, we see the ability to hit the big shots.We see the command he has of the team. We also see that the detractors are sometimes correct in that his defense is poor and he doesn’t penetrate.
For the anti Bibby people,you will know them immediately as the first thing out of their mouth will be something about defense, penetration and quickness which is what they value the most.They see what the Tony Parker’s and Rondo’s do to Bibby and that dominates their perception of him. There is also a belief that a quick and speedy PG that plays defense will naturally command the respect of his teammates, will willingly penetrate to hit big shots, and is the obvious choice for instantly improving the Hawks some x number of games.
And of course there are the Acie Avengers who believe he has been wronged by the evil and incompetent Coach Woodson and want Bibby gone so Acie can take his rightful place as PG of this team.
Sure some will take a seemingly middle ground and talk about contract dollars, but with few exceptions, minds have been made up for a year and half now.
Sekou’s source is right, it really isn’t about Bibby’s skill set so much as it is about “fit” and wins. As a pro Bibby guy I’m not saying he is the only good option available, but letting him get away changes the chemistry of this team in a way none of us will really know until the season is over.
Go Hawks!!
SSI FAN
May 14th, 2009
1:48 pm
Don’t be shocked when word that the ASG is actively marketing all of its assets becomes public.
If the Hawks have Horford and Smith as starters in the frontcourt, they will either be too small or they will not have enough outside shooting.
RealSquawk
May 14th, 2009
1:51 pm
This isn’t yahoo fantasy basketball. This is a very important offseason so before you call for the firing or the trading of anybody you need to look at your losses and your gains.
On Mike Woodson like someone said earlier when they put the cameras on him he seems to say the right things even in the huddle. Which means people just aren’t listening to him. The real important knock on him is his bench development. It’s important we have lost some valuable assets due to his inability to show patients with people. Royal Ivey provided that energy and skill on the defensive end like Mario West, but he is a little more solid offensively. Salim Stoudamire if you do not know has been signed to the Bucks they signed him this year so he could be with them throughout training camp for the upcoming season.
To keep this short. Keep Marvin, Joe, Zaza, Flip, Childress, Al, Mario, Morris, Gardner, and Law, and I guess Evans even though he was disappointing on the court.
The rest can go or stay.
Josh Smith is the x-factor. Everyone is screaming trade Joe or Marvin, but the really we should be looking to move smooth.
IF:::: We can get an expiring contract. Unprotected lottery picks for this draft and possibly the next.
Why you ask?
Out of all the players on our team he would provide the largest return.
Now to be honest I am probably picking Marvin over Smooth anytime I am picking team.
Marvin is younger.
He is more talented.
He is more athletic than you think.
He is bigger than you think.
He can be coached.
He has the most potential.
I know what you are thinking Marvin? the most potential? Marvin has done everything asked of him. When they asked him to pick up the slack scoring BOOM he did it.
Come back with a three point shoot BOOM he did it.
If we asked Marvin to come back two inches taller he would do it.
The only reason people aren’t high on MArvin is because he is the FOURTH scoring option on our team.
Smith on the other hand has spent summer dribbling working on post moves and working on jump shots and guess what he is not proficient in any of those areas and he constantly reminds us of that.
Keep them all if we can. But we are going to trade someone it is going to be Smoove.
RealSquawk
May 14th, 2009
1:53 pm
O and on Bibby as long as he comes reasonably priced and our future point guard is waiting in the wings I am down.
cp
May 14th, 2009
1:55 pm
I don’t like it but I’m sure Woodson will be back another year. If that’s the case then they really need to hire someone to take over the offense. We as fans knew our offense scheme or lack of a scheme was terrible but hearing commentators and analyst clown our so called offensive scheme night in and night out was embarrassing. I’m also not a fan of that switching defense. Good teams took advantage of us all year with that crap…I’m not going to say much about Law. Anytime you say that a guy we took 11th in the draft should get some pt it gets twisted into you thinking Law will be a star.. Nobody said Law will be a star but it would be nice if a guy you took that high in the draft got some consistent minutes so you can see what you have and don’t have in him. And to the person who acts as if Salim is out of the league, he is with the Bucks now he signed a multi year deal… If Brandon Bass is a free agent I would love to have him coming off the bench..I would keep Hunter and get rid of Morris..I would also take Sessions over Jack but having either one would not hurt.
Hawk Eye
May 14th, 2009
2:25 pm
Al Horford,Josh Smith,Dwight Howard,Joe Johnson,Al Brooks could be an epic win..heh
ATL Fan
May 14th, 2009
2:26 pm
Fantastic stuff Sekou. Look forward to reading more as this crucial postseason unfolds!
Daniel
May 14th, 2009
2:29 pm
RealSquawk-
I like your take on Marvin and agree with most everything you have said; however, his injury history (esp. the back) really makes me nervous to keep him long term.
SilentAssasin
May 14th, 2009
2:46 pm
Fire the coach immediately and trade Marvin Williams for LaBron James.
Shannon
May 14th, 2009
2:54 pm
If that post was from the real Michael Gearon Jr. then you better pay attention and get a new coach or there will only be a few “head in the sand” fans left next year!!!!! Fire Woodson now!
robin
May 14th, 2009
3:07 pm
The Hawks need what they have needed for years-a dominant center! We haven’t had one of consequence since Tree. Defense wins championships, not assists or slam dunks…
steve
May 14th, 2009
3:17 pm
Re-sign Bibby, get his replacement in place (if not Law, get someone else), get a solid 30 MPG Center – Keep Marvin and I say we are legit contenders for next year, barring injuries.
Melvin
May 14th, 2009
3:19 pm
Ayanna, you want the rest of the bloggers to think rational and not emotional and you suggest we trade Joe and keep Mario, Hunter and Gardner. Are you rooting for or against the Hawks???
Realsquawk,
When comparing Marvin and Josh, I noticed you didn’t use any stats to support your suggestion. Do you care to explain why?
Funny how many folks say Josh has the most trade value and find him easy to replace….
O'brien
May 14th, 2009
3:21 pm
I also think Woody will be back. And that’s fine, as long as he brings in somebody to help with the offense. Woody used to play Flip and Acie together, with Flip handling the ball, and Acie standing around at the 3-pt line. That makes no sense, because we know Flip isnt passing the ball. When Bibby is struggling, give Acie some of his minutes (with the starters), and bring Flip off the bench. And can we get a big man coach? I dont think Tyronne Hill (sp?) is the answer. I like the mention of one of the Davis guys, if they are available (Antonio/Dale).
It’s ironic that Woody is a defensive minded coach, but he does nothing to help cover up Bibby’s liabilities. I am okay with Bibby coming back (at the right price, and for 2 years). Acie Law needs 12-16 minutes every game, and resign Flip. As someone else mentioned, I also like Brandon Bass and Matt Barnes.
Rick Sund
May 14th, 2009
3:26 pm
We will NOT re-sign Bibby!! We’re trying to make room for T-Mac, and you want BIBBY?!
Gardner WILL start at the 2 next season. And you know what that means…
Dee White How Hard
May 14th, 2009
3:28 pm
Man, hell naw I ain’t playin’ for Ah-lanna.
I hate y’all!
Glen "Big Fatty" Davis
May 14th, 2009
3:33 pm
I can hit buzzer-beaters, but Josh Smith can’t? LOL, Hawks fans!!
Excuse me while I watch ANOTHER elite Boston team, the Bruins, slaughter the Canes tonight.
JASon
May 14th, 2009
3:34 pm
The one thing I can complain about with Woodson is 1)learn to adjust in certain situations (such as when Joe is not producing), and 2)teach the team how to play defense. They clearly are having trouble.
And all I know about Josh Smith is: dude missed like 200 jump shots in that series. And he kept shooting them! He’s a nice guy I just feel like he’s hurting us with his selfish play, more than he is helping us in the successful aspects of his game.
Go Hawks! Atlanta is proud of you!
buttstank
May 14th, 2009
3:35 pm
FIRE RICKY AND WOODY!!!!!!!
Hoppin' Bruh
May 14th, 2009
3:37 pm
Woody should learn how to adjust in certain situations (such as when Joe is TIRED).
jhan
May 14th, 2009
3:42 pm
Mike Bibby sure was LESS than clutch when we really needed him. He averaged 10pts,4asts,2to’s in 33mins per game during the Cleveland series. If that is clutch then I must not understand the definition of the word. He also did this against a poor defender in Mo Williams.
It’s hard for me to imagine Acie would have done worse.
Tonight's Predictions
May 14th, 2009
3:56 pm
Orlando and Houston win. You know I’m right!!
Tyger
May 14th, 2009
4:00 pm
HAWKS OFF-SEASON EASY BUTTON, 1.0
1. AC Law is the point guard.
This is one of the worst examples of player non-development in the history of the NBA. Woody’s on the verge of ruining another excellent draft pick just like Salim Stoudamire. This is totally unacceptable and amplified during an economic downturn, i.e., not good business.
2. JJ is not an elite player.
However, he still is the Hawks’ best all-around player. His size and skill set bemoan his productivity. Nevertheless, JJ is a key, to move him, would be utterly stupid. We need to lower our expectations and accept that he’s Robin, not Batman. Remember, the broohaha over JJ was that he was being overpaid – but we needed an anchor and we still do.
3. Jsmoove is the small forward.
Re-defining roles is necessary to move to the next level. Surely, Smoove can play some PF, but he has to develop his outside skill set. Not just 3’s, but the intermediate game, handles and footwork to elevate his game to the elite level. Decision making will always be a challenge for him, and we have to be careful. We dont like reckless, we do like fearless.
4. Horford is the Power Forward.
Nothing more obvious on the forefront. Al is a beast when healthy, but needs to be moved permanently to power forward. He’s been burdened, he will always be broken down when we need him most. He needs to further develop his very limited offensive game and he too will begin to challenge for elite status.
5. SHAQ IS BATMAN!
He is the inside presence we need; he can free JJ and make Horford, Smoove better as well, while providing the leadership we need to make a championship run. He is 37 and expensive, but also the answer for the next two seasons. True big men are hard to find and scraps are not the answer. Rather than dismantle a good core, address the problem.
Re-signing Bibby, Marvin, Flip, ZaZa and continuing to pay Speedy is fruitless, unless you address your main problem. Those funds are better spent on the solution to your problem. A creative package of Marvin, #1, #2 pick for Shaq should be easy.
rainman
May 14th, 2009
4:03 pm
Sekou — thanks for your opinion on the players trade value & the front line — I wasn’t one of those calling for Woodson’s head.
So, you think Speedy could actually be of some value when it comes to balancing out salary in a potential trade? That would be ironic, since that ahole has given nothing and can’t even show up for a mandatory post-season meeting.
I hear ya about the defensive priority for the center (ala Tree Rollins), but I don’t remember you saying if you thought Josh had the range to play 3 most of the time if Al is at 4. I personally think we need to keep Marvin for our primary 3. I guess it’s the same deal this year with Marvin (as it was last year with Josh), where we see what the market dictates — having the right to match any offer.
dap01
May 14th, 2009
4:08 pm
AC would have out performed Bibby in the playoffs. He would have save many points on defense alone.
What good is 10 pts per game if the opposition scores at will against you?
Daniel
May 14th, 2009
4:10 pm
Tyger- your take makes absolutely no sense.
Jay
May 14th, 2009
4:13 pm
Keeping everone together may resukt in a few more wins but not a championship. Why? Because within this group there is a serious lack of trust. In successful organizations, coaches trust players, players trust coaches, and players trust each other.
The Hawks look like and perform like world-beaters when share the ball on offense and cover for one another on defense. Conversely, when the trust isn’t there, they look lost and confused on the court; jacking up ill-advised jumpers and playing matador defense.
GM Sund, your mission, should you choose to win a championship, is to find and eradicate whoever and/or whatever it is that prevents this team from constanly employing trusting one another.
Jay
May 14th, 2009
4:14 pm
Sorry, that last line should be “trust in one another”.
doc
May 14th, 2009
5:04 pm
jhan, agreed. scary to think what will happen when he slows down. fine if there is a monster on the block, keep him if not too much a liability
J.J.M.
May 14th, 2009
5:04 pm
if you think josh smith cost us a FEW playoff games you clealry didnt watch the playoffs.
James
May 14th, 2009
5:13 pm
Ramon Sessions can replace Mike Bibby or Andre Miller the hawks first need to trade Acie Law for another draft pick in the draft and get Johnny Flynn from Syracuse to replace Acie Law as the backup.
404atlhoops
May 14th, 2009
5:19 pm
Hello all. I haven’t been on here in a while so here is my two cents on the Hawks.
RealSquawk,
Ditto on your comments about Marvin. I am a huge Marvin Williams supporter. Williams has a skill set that enables him to be consistent 18 point scorer a night. He has a mid-range game to go along with being a three point shooter and Williams can put the ball on the floor to get to the rim. Now he needs to develop a post game. Marvin Williams should be the number 2 option behind Joe Johnson and not Josh Smith. I like Josh Smith but I think Williams has a better all around game.
Tyger,
Smtih cannot play the small forward position because he’s not a 3 for the exact reasons you stated. You can’t have a 3 that is uanble to knock down the jumper consisently or has questionable ballhandling skills. If a team does, then they are very limited on what they can do from that position. Dominique had no left hand but he was such a bona fide scorer he could get away with it. I do agree with your take on the Hawks needing a true center. However instead of pursuing Shaq, I would go after younger centers in Tyson Chandler or Chris Kaman. These guys can grow with the current nucleus the Hawks already have.
Deezanutz
May 14th, 2009
5:26 pm
Sekou did you go to GA Tech? I used to know this sucka square that went to G Tech with the same name.
James
May 14th, 2009
5:31 pm
The hawks should look like this next season.
PG – Ramon Sessions/Johnny Flynn or get Jarrett Jack from Indiana
SG – Joe Johnson/Flip Murray
SF – Richard Jefferson/Grant Hill
PF – Al Horford/Charlie Villanueva
C – Hasheem Thabeet/Rasheed Wallace
Also get Damien Wilkins from Oklahoma City.
Deezanutz
May 14th, 2009
5:32 pm
Slap Josh everytime he attempts a 3 pointer. He needs to focus on his inside game and defense and freethrow shots. Do that and we are good. Any idiot that thinks bibby should go needs to get slapped to. According to that offensive scheme, its bibby all the way. Develop Acie Law all the way also. Murray showed his ass in the playoffs. Anyway, we are set at guards for right now. Get that needed big man, a real center who can grab boards and make free throws!!! asap!!! This will take us to at least a game seven in the second round again. If we can acquire a real team leader then we would be championship material. We need that one go to guy. Damn I wish we had Wade. We need that type of guy who can take over a game. Anyway, 1. Resign bibby, 2. Get a “REAL CENTER” and 3. BRING in an IMPACT player, one who can take over a game and a championship can come to Atlanta….and oh yea slap and Tell Josh to play his role and to not get out of line. I cant help but laugh everytime he attempts a long range shot.
RealSquawk
May 14th, 2009
5:36 pm
Daniel- you are absolutely right about his injury history and I probably should have included it in my thoughts. His injury history is an issue, but I think he just unfortunately had a string of injuries back to back. That does change things though.
Melvin- I didn’t feel like using stats cause I figure most of us know the range of them, but here are them and my thoughts. Before i do that though on Josh’s trade value. What would we miss his weak side shot blocking, which is going to be extremely necessary if we keep Mike Bibby. I am not saying Josh has to go even though thats what i wrote. what i meant to say and i didn’t feel like correcting myself is that trading Josh would could put us in a better situation over trading Joe or Marvin.
NAME GP GS MIN PTS OFF DEF TOT AST STL BLK TO A/TO PF TECH
Josh Smi 69 68 35.1 15.6 1.9 5.3 7.2 2.4 1.36 1.61 2.3 1.05 2.7 0.1
Marvin W 61 59 34.3 13.9 1.8 4.5 6.3 1.3 0.93 0.64 1.1 1.16 2.1 0.0
So yes Josh Smith averages more than Marvin in most categories. And yes josh Smith’s numbers are down across the board. We expect him to have more rebounds because he is a powerforward and on all the other categories he is simply just more apart of the offense. Let Marvin be the second or third option and lets see what his numbers are. And yes Josh SMiths numbers are down across the board.
Deezanutz
May 14th, 2009
5:38 pm
T MAc would be good if he can stay healthy. Too much of an overpaid risk!!!! if he could stay healthy that would be a nice addition though
Deezanutz
May 14th, 2009
5:41 pm
This is an up the blog slap to SILENT ASSASSIN…YOUR COMMENTS ARE NO LONGER NEEDED!!!!! Everybody else is at least being realistic!!!!
ant banks
May 14th, 2009
6:03 pm
while we had a good season compared to previous years’ standards, we won a playoff series inspite of ourselves not because of us. we got lucky to face miami, a one man band.
had we faced philly or chicago, it would have been a very different outcome. we would have lost in the first round and back at square one. please do not confuse our first round series win with success.
Rod from College Park
May 14th, 2009
6:04 pm
RealSquak,
Have you ever considered that Marvin is not more apart of the offense because he does not show enough in the games or practice for the coach, or his teamates to even consider that? While I am not a Woodson fan, I do give him enough credit to realize if he had another guy on his team who had enough offensive talent to take the load off of Bibby and Joe, that he would utilize him. Please don’t bring up the when Joe was hurt he stepped up comment. That was against two of the worse teams in the league. If Marvin was as great as you guys make him out to be, I am sure Joe, Bibby, Josh, Al or Woodson would be calling him out about his lack of production. He is an average to below average NBA small forward, who is easily replaceable, and would not be worth the 5 to 8 or more million dollars a year it would take to resign him.
Jfreak
May 14th, 2009
6:58 pm
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again Josh Smith has all the talent in the world but little to no basketball brain to back it up with. I love the guy and would hate to lose the POTENTIAL, but if the right trade can be made I would make it happen. Bibby? NO WAY! We sucked with Josh Smith but with Bibby we are pretty good! Keep Bibby, trade Smith and fire Woody! That’s all folks!
ant banks
May 14th, 2009
7:28 pm
Enter your comments here
Najeh Davenpoop
May 14th, 2009
7:38 pm
I agree with Sekou’s comments, both on LeBron James (the talk of him going to NYC is wishful thinking from ESPN) and the trade value of the Hawks’ current players (you absolutely HAVE to take into account contract status when figuring these things).
Tyger
May 14th, 2009
7:40 pm
Correction
in re. Horford – is burdened at the center position. If he isn’t moved to his natural position of power forward, he will continue to break down.
Jsmoove is only playing PF b/c he doesn’t have all the skills of a SF yet. But he is too small for PF, that’s why his rebounding is so erratic. He can become an elite SF, if he works to develop the skills to match his athleticism.
Re-signing ZaZa is equally important. Where would we be without ZaZa? He has improved every season and accepted his demotion like a man. There is not a better backup center in the NBA than ZaZa. Give him his money and plug him in. That’s the type of consistent core that championship teams have, they keep there good role players.
Bibby is not the answer! Yes, we made the playoffs both seasons he was here, but he had horrible playoffs both seasons as well. He can no longer hold his own against younger PGs. And to pay him upwards of $7M for those one or two desperation 3’s is not wise.
Marvin Williams I like but he’s injury prone and we don’t have a starting spot or salary for him. He will go the way of Chills or be re-signed and moved for a BIG.
The draft cant help us.
The Flash
May 14th, 2009
7:57 pm
Long time no see boys. My views from afar. Enjoyed the Miami series immensely. If you guys didn’t, you’re nuts.
This team needs Josh and his explosiveness.
This team needs JJ, but I don’t like it, and never have. He slows the game down; there is almost never a crispness to the flow when it touches his hands, no matter where he is on the court. I do not like that in a basketball team. But they need him, unless he could help in a deal to land Bosh.
If I were the Hawks owners, except for my boy, I should want to die, but, if I didn’t, and given my luck that is likely, I would make JJ and MW available with whomever to get Bosh. You get Bosh and you got a team for the future.
I like MW alot as a player but he is too injury prone to keep on this team, given that the second strongest player on this team, JJ, plays small.
Another possible source of bigmen is the Wizzards. If they get the one-one, then Songila is almost certainly available and he is a terrifically smart and tough inside player from the 4, who can score the ball off the 16 footer and make the ball move. If they don’t get the kid from Oklahoma, it is likely that they take the big-big, in which case they might well move the UNC center whose name escapes me. They need a shooter at the guard position in case OO don’t come back healthy, and Bibby could be that insurance. Also, if you can’t get Bosh, g
Getting Songila and McGee or whatever his name is would work really well–Songila gives you sure points, a savy and tough front court guy who can really penetrate the defense off the pass, and the kid Mcwhatever can run the court and finish, can block shots, and shows me a lot of variety and pizzaz in the half court game.
Later, guys, it was fun stopping by and listening to the sound of old friends talkin ball. Before I left, thought what the heck, might as well throw my two cents in–watch it Astro!
You guys figure out the rest. JJ is terrific with the ball in his hands which is the good news and bad news. To me, the bad part fits perfectly with the plodding mindset of the team’s coach.
If I’m you guys, I’m not mad at this team’s performance against Cleveland, and I’m hoping to land Bosh.
Ant of EPT
May 14th, 2009
8:00 pm
Good evening everyone I have some thoughts on how to fix our current situation with the Hawks. I prefix all this by saying I’m a Grady baby born and bred in the ATL. I have been a Hawks fan since 1979 and we finally have a good team again. Please lets not screw it up by trading a Hometown star like Josh Smith. Some of his foolishness drives me crazy as well but then I realize he just wants to do the best for the hometown team.Here is my idea to fix the Hawks
Trade Joe,speedy,and sign and trade Marvin to Houston
Hawks get T-Mac,and Ron Artest
Then with #1 draft pick the Hawks take Tyreke Evans from Memphis
We sign Ramon Sessions as a free agent Resign Flip and ZaZa
Josh is not a three and Horford is to slow to guard the 4 position in the NBA. T-Mac is a free agent after next year and Tyreke evans will be ready
Jody
May 14th, 2009
8:11 pm
Sekou,
You make very respectable points regarding the Hawks situation. However, let’s not forget how badly the Hawks got outrebounded in the playoffs and in the regular season. They need SIZE BAD if they’re ever going to contend for anything. The Cavs may have LeBron but, they also have TRUE big men (not undersized) who defend and rebound and that is going to be a HUGE reason why they will win it all this year.
Sekou Smith
May 14th, 2009
8:18 pm
You are correct Jody. They need additional size, not to trade away the size they have for other players of similar size. There are additions that can be made, with so many players on the free agent shopping circuit. And they didn’t get smoked on the glass every night against Miami like they did against Varejao, Ilgauksas, Joe Smith and the boys. The Hawks got nothing from their bench in the way of size, which is where I think they are most deficient. Aside from Zaza’s random outbursts, they don’t have a single bench player that has a track record of rebounding at a high rate. Again, this team’s biggest gains will be in the fortification of its roster as opposed to the banishment of specific assets (and I agree, you’re going to have to trade something, or rather someone, of value to get similar value in return).
Jay
May 14th, 2009
8:25 pm
The question is not whether to trade Josh or Marvin. Josh is the PF and Marvin is the SF. Al Horford’s role will be similar to the one he had at Florida–play a little PF and a little Center. They are at the core of a team that won 47 games and they are only 23 years old. Because their styles are dissimilar, you can keep all three. Just be patient, give them time to mature and the results could be spectacular.
They should re-sign Pachulia, sign one more big man–Nesterovic or Drew Gooden immediately come to mind while Channing Frye or Charlie Villenueva would bring an intriguing skill-set to the team–and give Morris a few minutes each game, hopefully.
On offense, the Hawks have to find a way to get more lay-ups so they can stop liviing, and dying, with the jump-shot. One way is to feed Josh Smith on the block more than just a couple of times per game, even if he misses. Another way is to find an affordable and available big man with a good low-post game. A third way is to have someone, ideally a PG, penetrate and pass to an open teammate when the defense collapses.
Here’s the real question: Is Mike Bibby and/ or Flip Murray the type of Point Guard this team needs? Yes, they are leaders and yes they bring a much needed veteran presence to the team and yes they can be excellent shooters with no conscience and short memories when they miss.
But is being a good shooter the primary attribute you want in a Point Guard? Don’t you want your PG to lead the team in assists? Ideally, don’t you want your PG to create easy scoring opportunities for his teammates? In a perfect world, wouldn’t you want your PG to be such a willing passer of the ball to his teammates that passing becomes contagious? On defense, don’t you want them to stop, or at least slow down, the penetration of the opposing PG’s? Do Bibby or Murray bring that to the table?
I would and that’s why I would not sign either Murray and Bibby to play PG. While I could see re-signing Murray to be a back-up Shooting Guard, I’d rather have Bibby to fill that role but I’m sure he’d be too expensive.
While J. Kidd, Jarrett Jack and Ramon Sessions would be at the top of the PG wish list, stop wishing because Atlanta will not be able to out-bid Dallas, Indiana and Milwaukee, respectively for their services.
However, the right PG is out there-Sekou already mentioned him-and he is available but flying under the radar. He is this year’s Delonte West, a former first-round draft choice who has good size, quickness, a boatload of international experience, an inexpensive contract, and would blossom with a change of scenery-Portland’s Sergio Rodriguez.
Oh, and Speedy Claxton’s expiring contact would have huge value to a team like Oklahoma City who would be willing to part with PG Earl Watson in a trade. The salaries match and Watson, a true PG who has become expendable because OKC drafted Russell Westbrook, has Chucky Atkins to back him up and recently signed Shaun Livingston, would be a good veteran mentor for Acie Law.
PG-Rodriguez, Watson and Law
SG-Johnson, Murray (or Bibby if really lucky), West
SF-Williams, Evans, Gardner
PF-Smith, Hunter
C-Horford, Pachulia, Nesterovic/Gooden/Frye/Villenueva and Morris
Ariose
May 14th, 2009
8:46 pm
Why in the hell are you people calling for Antionio Mcdyess when we need a center? Last time I checked, he’s no bigger or longer than Horford. He’s supposed to help us on the boards how? Real smart guys. He really had an impact on the boards when we were sweeping Detriot during the regular season.
Can some of you reallly put some effort into thinking before posting? I know it’s hard but please try. I know I sound like an @$$ right now but I just don’t think some of you are really being serious with your suggestions.
I we can pick up a center AND Mcdyess for the cheap then fine, BUT Mcdyess is NOT A CENTER ans we still would’ve gotten crushed on the boards by cleveland with him in our lineup……he really didn’t have and impact on the boards against cleveland in their 1st round series. I’m just sayin’….
Jody
May 14th, 2009
8:47 pm
Sekou,
I fully agree. The only question is, will management get the Hawks some size? Looking at Rick Sund’s track record with the Sonics, it appears he values having size up front. Also, I agree completely about Josh Smith. NO WAY I trade him unless it’s some sort of monumental deal that makes the Hawks immediate title contenders. For all his flaws on the floor, the guy really came to play in the playoffs and the numbers back that up.
Sautee
May 14th, 2009
8:50 pm
Tyger,
about this: “Jsmoove is only playing PF b/c he doesn’t have all the skills of a SF yet. But he is too small for PF, that’s why his rebounding is so erratic.”
So I guess you also think that Kenyon Martin (6′ 9″, 240), Antonio McDyess (6′ 9″, 245), and Kurt Thomas (6′ 9″, 235) are also too small to play PF?
Josh doesn’t rebound well because he is poor at blocking out, and rather tries to outjump his opponent. He’s plenty big enough at 6′ 9”, 240 to play the 4.
Flash,
Good to see you at the table, man. C’mon back soon. And I like the Songaila idea.
doc
May 14th, 2009
8:53 pm
jay i could go for that list it is almost doable. watson has long been on the shopping list. like a guy that is big that can step outside and shoot. a guy like that makes al smith less of a liability when we have to go big.
just need to get a real guard rather than a 5 second man in rio. guy has no game besides playing one play at a time that calls for a defender. too small and skill set too limited to be a real threat to become a reliable defensive specialist that stays in the line up.
Ariose
May 14th, 2009
8:58 pm
If I were in front of some of you I would laugh in your faces. YOU WANT TO TRADE JOE JOHNSON? I WANT YOU TO SERIOUSLY THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU’RE SAYING AND HOW DUMB THAT SOUNDS. MANAGEMNT NEEDS TO GET THAN MAN SOME REAL HELP AND YOU ALL NEED TO STOP BLAMING THAT DUDE.
DUMBEST BLOGGERS OF THE DAY= ANYONE CALLING FOR JJ’S HEAD….IDIOTS…
How about we get a JJ duplicate to releive him sometimes? How about drafting 6′7 SG Demar Derozan out of USC? He also jumps A LOT higher than JJ. Yiou can even play them side by side. The guy really gets after the rim and thats what we need. Obviously i’d draft a PG or a Center ahead of him but Tading the franchise is not a option SMART PEOPLE….
Ariose
May 14th, 2009
9:13 pm
It’s not like your trading Jason Richrdson. Who by the way, got traded for a bag of skittles and a pop-tart….
Answer this question for me. Would the Houston Rockets give us tracy McGrady fo Joe Johnson straight up right now? What about New Jersey Giving up Vince Carter straight up? Orlando giving up Lewis or Hedo Turkoglu(sp?) straight up? Pheonix giving up Richrdson? What abut San Antonio Giving up Ginobili(obvioulsy his age and ankle play a factor in their decision)?
THE POINT IS, there are tons of teams who would give their right arms for that dude. If wecan just ge the man some non-cap friendly help we cauld win possibly more games than his 62 win pheonix team and get farthr than the Confrence finals with him.
Please, stop being stupid……
Ariose
May 14th, 2009
9:17 pm
I would sign Ronnie Price to be our backup PG over any of those guys listed……
Ariose
May 14th, 2009
9:20 pm
…..and if you think this Stoudamire bashing is going un-noticed you’re wrong. When he blows up next season i’ll know exactly who to let have it….I know who you are……I’m storing those comments in my head…
niremetal
May 14th, 2009
9:37 pm
Co-sign 2 of Ariose’s 4 posts. I’ll leave it to you all to figure out which ones
Ant of EPT
May 14th, 2009
9:44 pm
Ariose I am not calling for Joes head I realize that man Do Work. The problem is Woody has put a lot of miles on Joe and I did not like his body language in the playoffs. I think he is tired of carrying the team and I wanted to reward him ( Trade to Houston with Yao not to Memphis)and also improve our team for the future.During the playoffs everytime the ball rotated to Joe it stopped. He complained about not having veterans now he has to make everyone better which is part of being the Superstar. I am sorry for all his gifts Joe does not have that Dog in him. Josh Smith has it but he is not ready for primetime.
Faith
May 14th, 2009
10:05 pm
Noway Bibby rocks he’s just having an off week like we all do, so he maybe a basketball star but he is a reg. person
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
10:07 pm
Ariose i agree with you 100 percent
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
10:09 pm
Sekou there is no way we bring back the same coach or player we have to make changes and it starte with the coach first.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!
Large Dick
May 14th, 2009
10:14 pm
Firing Woodson and signing a REAL NBA SUPERSTAR is an absolute priority!!
Melvin
May 14th, 2009
10:18 pm
If the Magic get eliminated by the Celtics and they fire their Head Coach. Can we justify not firing Woody if a coach who won more games then him get the AX???????????
Large Dick
May 14th, 2009
10:21 pm
If the Magic fire Van Gundy and hire Woody, then the Hawks won’t have to fire Woody!!
EVERYBODY WINS!!!!!
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
10:23 pm
You build this ream around josh and joe first lets talk about josh have some flawless in his game first he have to work on boxing out on the defense board to many time he is out of position to rebound he have to work on that and be a beast on the board second stop dribbling the ball up court like you magic hand the ball of to your guards that can be corrected third stop shooting 3s keep your a$$ in the post and play above the rim and get some offensive rebound he can be a beast under the right coach.
go hawks!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 14th, 2009
10:33 pm
Rick sund all im saying chris bosh 22points a game 10 rebound a game trade horford and marvin and the 19pick and your starting five should look like this ACIE, JOE, CHILL, JOSH, BOSH bench FLIP, EVANS, HAKIM WARRICK, SOLO, ZAZA.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Egins26Ali
May 14th, 2009
10:33 pm
Jay I am with you about Charlie V. or Channing Frye. We still need a legitimate big but Charlie V. would be great off the bench and I would take him over Marvin. As I mentioned earlier Marvin would be well suited coming off the bench as a 6th man if the hawks can get a true center. A.C. Law needs rotation time with the starting unit. He can penetrate and get east shots for everyone. With Bibby and Law getting close to equal time your getting the best of both worlds from the pg position.
We need another good scorer coming off the bench with Flip(Marvin or Charlie V.) & an athletic defensive minded center.(Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby type).
Lastly, get an offensive minded assitant coach and hope that Woody will play his bench and trust his asssitants.
Jay
May 14th, 2009
10:39 pm
At the end of his posting, Sekou mentioned an article in ESPN: the magazine written by Tom Friend. Although the article was about Chauncey Billups, it mentioned how significant the mentorship of Sam Mitchell and Terrell Brnadon was in helping Billups and Kevin Garnett become the players they are. Come to think of it, Chris Bosh became a superstar under Mitchell but hasn’t been the same since Toronto fired Mitchell.
If Mitchell could have that kind of impact on Billups, Garnett and Bosh, shouldn’t management look into hiring Mitchell in some capacity to work with and mentor the young guys on the Hawks roster?
Egins26Ali
May 14th, 2009
10:51 pm
I would remind everyone that chemistry is a huge part of any teams success and that’s why I don’t think the nucleus of the team should change. 1 or 2 players are all we need to challenge the elite teams provided we are able to sign our free agents.
The biggest problems the Hawks encountered this year was lack of consistent scoring from anyone other than JJ and consistent rebounding.Why? Because as good as Horford is still an undersized center and although Josh can play pf those 2 had to work to hard to rebound. JJ also had to work too hard to score!!!!!
Charlie V. or Marvin kills 2 birds with 1 stone. Having either one of them as a bench presence along with Flip, ZaZa, Mo and AC is a formidable 2nd unit. Provided we can secure a descent big man.
This my friends is the formula for success without doing much. Bibby should come back because of the great chemistry he has with the others. Yes he is a defensive liability but that’s where AC has to come to play.
Starting 5 (Bibby,JJ,JSmoove,Big Al & Tyson Chandler)
Bench(AC,Flip,Mo,Marvin or Charlie V. & ZaZa)
mykhalc
May 14th, 2009
11:31 pm
whatever the HAWKS do, first and foremost, HAS TO BE to get a REAL LEADER that embraces that role!!! the leader can be a HC that KNOWS how to lead and get the most outta his players…OR…’that’ player that compliments JOE on the court…a 2nd option or a co-1st option. but a player that will not have ANY problem commandin’ the respect of the current players (if they remain).
BIBBY is a great on the court leader but he can’t/doesn’t fire up these cats like they need. JOE just won’t/doesn’t. JOSH…aaahh…maybe one day. AL…probably will one day. MW…another JOE…probably.
to put it simply…this team needs an f’n ALPHA MALE…PERIOD!!!!
and yessir, your last name must be WOODSON!!! and you are CLUELESS!!!LOL
WOODSON’s gotta go…PERIOD!!!!
Rufus1
May 15th, 2009
12:22 am
Please No Bibby or Woodson…47 wins and 2nd round sweep next, is that what we want.
I will not re-instate my season tickets as long as Woodson is the coach.
hawkeye
May 15th, 2009
12:30 am
Bibby is looking to sign with houston. I’m sure he wants to reunite with adelman and he’s aware that rick coaching style fits his skills and RICK KNOWS WHAT TO DO WITH HIM. Anyone noticed how much bibby’s offense struggled when adelman was fired? bibby relies on using the pick n roll to create a shot for himself or his teammate. Houston has a roster that can use of him effectively in offense and can hide him in defense with excellent perimeter defenders like battier and artest and yao ming’s shot blocking I’m sure he will be a good fit with houston. I also think that he’s willing to accept the back up role for brooks who’s starting to mold into a good starting pg. Having bibby to mentor him for 3-4 yrs. will be plus for the rockets and having 2 pgs with different skillset will give them the versatility in that position. How i wish we’re in the same situation as the rockets. We’re always in a crisis…we’re always in a rebuilding phase.
Trapper John
May 15th, 2009
12:42 am
I don’t actually have anything to say. Just bored and wanted to see if anyone picks up on the bad pun created by this handle (PS – this is actually niremetal)
Rufus1
May 15th, 2009
1:01 am
If we loose Marvin, that will be 3 of 5 lottery picks he has wasted and AC wasting on the bench. Before we draft a new point guard, remeber AC was better than Aaron Brooks, Rondo and Sessions in college…IT IS About Woody.
Question
Would Chris Paul, Darren Williams, Rondo would they be as good as they are under Woodson?…I do think so. AC has the best basketball skill set of any player we have drafted in the last five years and he is riding the bench. Woodson is coached only for his job and sacrificed the future of this team in the process.
This is what happens when you keep bad employees on your payroll, they cost you money. We now have to spend 8 or 9 mil on a point guard, when that money could have been used to add size and dept(i.e, Bo Outlaw, Drew Gooden, Channing Frye)
We cannot keep Woodson just because he did a good job, if we think someone can do better. The goal of every organization should be greatness. What are you telling the people if we bring woodson back..That 47 wins is OK??? It has been 5 years and 5 lottery picks is to long, it is time for a change.
Ariose
May 15th, 2009
3:49 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXQs4Urk9gA
Murray’s a gangster lol.
BarkingBulldawg
May 15th, 2009
3:53 am
So Sekou, do you even think a major move will be made this offseason? Sounds like you might. And I mean either a trade or a major signing? I feel there is definitely a need to be bold (but not overly bold or stupid) this summer but I just dont really the ASG has the savvy to do what needs to be done…
BarkingBulldawg
May 15th, 2009
3:54 am
oh and from your blog, it sounds like Speedy would be a great asset to trade this offseason!
RealSquawk
May 15th, 2009
6:52 am
I know it sounds great to have Marvin coming off the bench, but that still leaves the small forward spot open. Who do we put there, Josh Smith? Josh Smith is a four moving him to the three would just continue to stunt his growth and his ‘potential’. Are log jam is at power forward and it is perfectly fine to have everyone of them on our team we just need a athletic or skilled 7 footer and guaranteed minutes for Acie LAw.
Really since Josh brings so much energy shouldn’t we bring him off the bench have him block some shots gamble for a steal or two and get some dunks he could come off the bench and play 30 minutes if we needed him to
Sekou Smith
May 15th, 2009
7:27 am
I absolutely think something major has to happen this summer Barkin. I even think a major move or two might be in the works, only because you have to make tweaks to your chemistry to keep climbing.
Everybody is already assigning win totals and ultimatums for next season about what is a legitimate sign of improvement, which can sometimes be faulty logic in the NBA. The Hawks lost (not added) a core player last year in Childress and won 10 more games. So did Flip Murray and Mo Evans win you 10 more games? I don’t think the math works like that. There are so many circumstances that play into this thing it’s crazy.
That’s why I’m convinced the Hawks have to add quality depth from about 8-15 as opposed to blasting apart their first seven guys (when reasonably healthy over 82 games those first seven or eight helped you to a 47-win season folks, you can’t just ignore that). Now free agency is going to force you to make some changes, which is a good thing. What changes you make are up to the GM and his crew to get right.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
8:29 am
Some people need to just stop exaggerating. Trading one or two of the top 7 guys on the team is not “blowing it up.”
And as anybody knows, you don’t get something for nothing. But you can get nothing for something. I mean, we DO have Randolph Morris and Speedy Claxton…
I don’t believe that we’ll be doomed if we re-sign Mike Bibby. What I do believe is that we need to spell him with a guy who plays 18 mpg. And that guy, whoever it may be, needs to be a guy who is the yin to Mike’s yang. He has to be a better defender, penetrator, etc. He also needs to be able to confidently run the team when he’s on the floor.
I see us having a hard time without Bibby, but just as hard a time if we keep him as a 33-35mpg point guard who has nobody other than Flip Murray as a backup. I think Law can step into the role described above. However, I’m not opposed to it being somebody else. Look, we either need a fairly young guy who is a stop-gap, or we need to go an get a successor.
Like it or not, Bibby can’t run the joint forever. He’s great to have as a steadying influence, a conscious-less, deadly shooter, and somebody you want on the floor at the end of a game. But sooner or later (try RIGHT NOW), you need somebody who can come in and shoulder the load. Specifically the kind of load that he can’t carry.
It’s funny. Some of the same people who rushed to Mike Woodson’s defense during the season, and insisted that the players were the problem….happen to be the same people clamoring to keep all those same players. I’ll never understand, but I’ll always appreciate a joke when I see one….
I’d be in favor of keeping all of the front 7 or 8 guys on our team (you know, the guys that actually PLAY), but I don’t live in Never Never Land. I think we will see at least one, and more likely two or three of those guys move. Certainly in the top 9. And I think it will prove to be necessary. If we truly want to improve, that is.
I am certain payroll will not be as high next year as it was this year. No more $67 million. Chop off Bibby’s contract, and you’re down to $52 mil. Extend him for $7 mil (roughly half what he’s getting now), and you’re right back up to $59 mil. Now. How much higher payroll is going to go, when $58 or $59 is likely to be the league average next year (or lower), is anybody’s guess. But I don’t see the Hawks spending too much more, unless they think they can contend for a championship.
So you can talk until you’re blue in the face about keeping everybody who is anybody on this team. You want to improve? You gotta spend the dough. Don’t wanna spend so much? Make a trade.
I don’t know what kind of magic beans some of you are imagining, but last time we saw some “tweaks”, we ended up with Flip (good), Mo (won’t miss him if he goes), and guys who don’t or can’t play. Good luck…
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
8:37 am
Consider also as Sekou says, free agency forces you to make decisions. We’re not guaranteed to keep every free agent. We lost one last year (hey, it was a freak accident, at leas in how it ended, but it freakin’ happened). Had Philadelphia been smarter, we might have lost two.
Like Sekou says, we lost Chill and won 10 more games. While some will no doubt take that right on down the path traveled way too often, I’d counter that we might have won 15 more games WITH him (in addition to the two guys we signed). In fact, add Flip and Mo to a team that retains Childress, and you’re talking about a deeper team than we had, struggling less during the season, and having more punch in the playoffs. But spilled milk is spilled milk.
Again, free agency sometimes means you don’t get to keep everybody. Like it or not. And SOMETIMES, it’s for the better. But you won’t know until the season is over as Kirk would say.
doc
May 15th, 2009
8:40 am
not a bibby hater but like hawk and i agree in whole, houston makes more sense if there is no money involved. their defense is what ours has to become if we can “afford” to have him back and climb higher. besides they have plenty of women there for his stacks samuel. mighty fine and love to show it in the oil state. his stacks may not measure up to oil stacks though. if we manage to bring him back for a 2 yr contract for 5 mil then fine otherwise better fields to sow.
well put sekou, what i been trying to say as well about the chills thing and wins. too many factors including some teams going very far south to start the season and then get disinterested at the end. that in itself can put a fews wins in your pocket just in teams not competing during certain periods.
sund’s summer for sure this year, no more watch and wait when your whole roster has imploded from the top three down. funny only three ar guaranteed of coming back and some folks insist that one of the three has to be traded. that is flat self-defeating, of course i could use stronger words to make a point. if it does it will be soon or late as the picture comes into focus.
Daniel
May 15th, 2009
9:39 am
How does Speedy’s contract effect the teams financial picture? Are we off the hook yet, or does his final year have any value in trade as an “expiring contract” deal?
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
9:39 am
Ray, I don’t know if I am some of the same people who rushed to Mike Woodson’s defense during the season, and insisted that the players were the problem…happen to be the same people clamoring to keep all those same players. I’d like to see this nucleus stay together for another year of maturity and health (hopefully). I say add more depth to the roster, get rid of the NBDL elite and get some real vets who know the game and as importantly, know the value of a good locker room. Also, I’ll freely admit that I would be satisfied with a run that is similar to Reggie Miller’s Pacers squad. I think they may have made one Finals appearance, but basically they were a team that won a lot of regular season games and consistently made at least the 2nd round of the playoffs. And they probably did it for like 6-8 years. I’ll take that it a heartbeat. I have no delusions about blowing up the team and winning a title in the next 2-3 years. That would require a HOF type player and those don’t grow on trees (not to mention a tremendous owner). I’d rather see a 6-8 year run of well-played, meaningful basketball games than see us dismantle this team after 2 postseasons and roll the dice.
doc, there seems to be almost universal support for trading one of the 3 starters remaining, either Joe or Josh. By the way, I’d be ALL for trading Mo Evans, especially if it would help bring back Chill.
Daniel
May 15th, 2009
9:41 am
Also, Ariose count me in as one of the guys who doesn’t like stoudemire. I will remember your comments next year when he again does nothing in the league.
Daniel
May 15th, 2009
9:42 am
Also, Sekou any word on the Childress front? Now, would be an interesting time to do a catch up story on him.
HawkKingBibby
May 15th, 2009
9:46 am
SEKOU, I still have concerns on whether Bibby can stay healthy for 3 or 4 years. I have concerns about Marvins back as well. I say try to trade Marvin to the Bucks for Sessions and a draft pick. Then sign RON ARTEST with Bibbys money. We need somebody TO GET IN LEBRONS FACE ON D and send his behind to the floor when he is laughing and clowning WHILE JOE IS IN A WHEELCHIR.
MannyT
May 15th, 2009
9:48 am
Claxton’s contract finally has value this upcoming season as it will expire in the summer of 2010. It will likely have greater value than normal as long as it moves BEFORE LeBron, DWade, Bosh, etc sign extensions. The more names there are in that 2010 free agent class, the better the chance we can move that contract.
Woody showed that he had no role for Claxton. He treated him like Frank Burns. (How’s that for contextual blogging, niremetal.) Speedy made a statement by skipping his final team meeting.
Add that to move to all the free agents and this team could look very different in the fall. I believe that making adjustments to address needs now is critical for the Hawks (versus waiting for honorable mention in the 2010 free agent sweepstakes as most teams will do.) Nothing radical is necessary, but filling key needs for improvement will move us up on the NBA radar.
Sekou, the pro sports math is rarely linear. That’s why fantasy sports are so different from real ones and NBA GMs who trade their best player usually get fired/step down within 2 years.
BWAF
The Truth
May 15th, 2009
10:02 am
It is amazing how many diverse opinions there are about the directions of the Hawks. None of us will admit that our views are primarily based on the playoffs only and not the regular season. We are all a victim of the “What Have You Done for Me Lately” mentality. We have caught amnesia and have forgotten that before we had the playoff we had a regular season. Remember we earned a favorable spot in the playoff because performed well in the regular season.
Despite our 47 wins during the regular season, we struggled with big frontline opponents, quick point guards and, as always, we played with an underutilized bench. These are our weaknesses that must be address this off season:
1) Undersize Frontline Problems – our current frontline consists of Al, Josh and Marvin. In other words, 2 tweeners and 1 conventional SF. To put it another way, 2 PF and 1 conventional SF. ZAZA was the difference maker that helped to address our size problem somewhat. But, since ZAZA is a banger and not a leaper and lack quickness, at times he looked like a slow diesel truck against faster sport cars when matched-up with young agile and more aggressive big centers like Lopez and similar players. Believe it of not, Marvin made our smaller Dysfunctional frontline a more functional unit because of his length at the SF position. He gave us the ability to rebound and defend by committee. If you don’t believe that, checkout his rebounding stats for the year prior to his injury. Look at the Cleveland series and see how problematic a big-line team causes especially with a small and ineffective SF in Mo Evans. Our team is an assembly of specialized parts that only work well as a unit. So, if we trade Marvin for a scoring SF that is smaller, our weaknesses on the frontline will constantly be exposed with Al and Josh. I’m not necessarily promoting Marvin to stay; I’m saying there is a cause and effect for every player that is replaced. For example, a slow and ineffective defender as Bibby could coexist if we added a bigger enforcer at the center position to help better defend on the weak-side. Or, Al, Josh and Marvin could continue to work together as a threesome unit if we upgrade to a faster PG that’s a better one-on-one defender. Either way, we must address the frontline problem regardless of our affection for these players. Remember offense sells tickets but defense wins games.
2) Point Guard Problems – Given Bibby age and acquisition price, in hindsight, our strategy to acquire him must have been short term as AC Law was suppose to be the long term solution. But I think we can all see that it has not unfolded that way. AC Law proneness to injury and reduced PT by Woody have manifested us a problem at the backup PG position. The short term strategy may have worked since we have 47 wins as proof, but the long term strategy needs to be re-worked. It is no way we can pretend that all is well at the PG position. We are at a cross-road and unless Sund takes bold action, our upcoming season will be a disaster from an ill-conceive acquisition or poor planning at our PG position.
Underutilized Bench Problems – This has caused an over-utilization and heavy minutes from our star player Joe Johnson and early injuries to other starters such as AL, Marvin and in even Josh. Our depth deficiencies were apparent in the playoff. If it wasn’t for an underpaid Flip Murray, our scoring production from our bench would have been a joke. The question becomes, is management simply trying to sell tickets and look competitive, or are they really trying to build a team to compete for a championship? In a previous blog, I wrote that the Hawks are in the lower salary group at #22 out of 30 at $68,012,332. The Hawks were 4th seeded in the playoff and they advanced to the second round. Compare that to Cleveland who is rated #3 out of 30 at $91,650,943 and they are the top seed in the playoff and is highly likely to win a championship. You could argue that Hawks are the exception to the rule. Most of time (except for New York), top salary teams finish at the top while lower salary team finishes at the bottom. So unless the ASG gets serious about this team and acquiring real talent for our bench, our playoff plateau has already been reached. CAUTION: THIS PROSPECTIVE ASSUMES WE HAVE A COACH THAT WILL USE THE ACQUIRED TALENT.
N-trigue
May 15th, 2009
10:03 am
Point blank we need to get rid of Marvin, J-Chills contract, our first round draft pick and Mike Bibbby for a PG thats a good player with good D and offensive skills along with a true center that can bang down low and block shots. I would say try to get Jarret Jack or Ramon Sessions for PG and someone like Tyrus Thomas or try trade all of the above to get the first pick in the draft and take Blake Griffin. Could you imagine Blake, Josh, and Al as your frontline with Jarret and Joe in your backcourt…Thats a nice lineup…Sekou I know this might be far fetch but what do you think about that?
cdog
May 15th, 2009
10:05 am
IF RICK SUND HAS A CELL PHONE STUCK IN HIS EAR THIS OFF SEASON AND FAILS TO GET A QUALITY DOMINATING CENTER HE SHOULD BE THE ONE TO GO.ITS HIS FAULT FOR NOT BRINGING IN A CENTER SUCH AS SHAG O’NEIL DURING THIS PAST TRADE DEADLINE FOR THE HAWKS TO GET BETTER.ZSA ZSA IS NOT THE ANSWER. HE WON’T BLOCK SHOTS NOR REBOUND UNLESS THE BALLS COMES STRAIGHT TO HIM. HE IS NOT MOBILE. SUND GET THE PHONE OUT OF YOUR EAR OR GO.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
10:12 am
samm i feel your passion, but how much do you think that marvin would want? i figure he would want 7mil, same thing that chills wanted and they would not pay him.
i am concerned about the state of the hawks. last year, the only MAJOR move that they made was to re-sign josh after memphis set the bar. then they went and grabbed flip, mo, randolf, othello, and gardner all on the CHEAP. what makes you think that they will do differently this year?
Daniel
May 15th, 2009
10:15 am
Blake Griffin and Tyrus Thomas are PF’s we have plenty of those.
Daniel
May 15th, 2009
10:19 am
ant banks one thing to consider is that losing Bibby’s contract, even if resigned will save us 7 mil or so. Plus, if we can unload Speedy’s expiring contract that gives the team flexibility. Finally, this ASG court case will hopefuly be settled. Either way that it ends up, the ownership will likely sell the Thrashers which should allow the team to spend more. I do agree that this summer it all about Sund and Ownership to exceed expectations like the players and coach did this year.
Sautee
May 15th, 2009
10:22 am
I assume that Woodson WILL be back.
However, I will wait until I KNOW that to be true before any more conjecture from me about offseason changes.
If Woody WERE gone, EVERYTHING CHANGES.
If he’s here, then by God, use those draft picks as trade fodder.
If he’s here, re-sign Bibby.
If he’s here, trade Acie
If he’s here,….oops, I said no conjecture.
Can you tell it’s the offseason?
Big Rak
May 15th, 2009
10:27 am
I see some of you people are over reacting. There is no need to blow the whole team up. The only players we need to keep are Bibby, Joe Johnson, ZaZa, Flip, and either Josh Smith or Al Hofford. Face it people we need a true low post defender to keep other teams out of the paint. You are going to have to loose something to get something. Josh and Hofford play (or should play) the same position. I say trade Al Hofford. Now before you all get too bent out of shape hear me out. What does Hofford actually bring to the table? Rebounding and tough interior defense when he is not out muscled or over powered. What does Josh bring to the table? I know he makes you curse at the T.V. when he stands at the three point line. But if he is the same Josh Smith that I have become to know over the years, he will use this off season to get better and work on what he needs to. You see what Josh has you can’t teach, and that is a desire to be better. He may frustrate us with some of his antics but we love him when he is on his game, doing what he does best. Blocking shots, driving to the hoop, and catching the alley hoop for that Highlight Factory Jam. Yea we love Josh Smith when he is doing all of that. I just want you all to ask yourself. Can Al Hofford be replaced? I think so. What about Josh Smith? I know he can’t and he is from Atlanta. We have to keep him. But we must give up something to get something. Al Hofford for a draft pick plus.
How about this Al Hofford and Ace Law for a top five draft pick this year and maybe Jack Jarret or someone like that. And with the top five pick you select Hasheem Thabeet. With a couple of more minor moves our line up could be Bibby, Johnson, Marvin Williams, Josh Smith, ZaZa. Then we would have Flip and Jack Jarret and Thabeet coming off the bench. What do you all think?
Daniel
May 15th, 2009
10:30 am
I like the idea of getting Jack, but no way do you trade Horford. His upside is to great. Horford and Acie is WAY too much to give up for a top 5 pick.
JR
May 15th, 2009
10:31 am
We will likely not have a chance to make a blockbuster deal for a star player, so we have to find some competent back-ups and a coach who is able to create a plan and is willingly to work more guys into the rotation.
Cut loose: Woodson, Bibby, Claxton, Evans, Gardner, Hunter, Law and Morris (not even sure some of these guys exist or still have a Hawks jersey)
Keepers: Horford, Johnson, Williams, Smith, Jones, Pachulia, Murray, West
biggest needs: Coach who can coach, Point Guard who can play both ends, Defensive Center.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
10:34 am
this is the part of the season that i hate the most…waitin’ for the draft, juneish and waitin’ for free agency, july 1st-ish and wonderin’ what my the hawks are goin’ to do.
the jj trade wasn’t finalized ’til late august, same thing with jsmoove from last yr. if history remains true, i will be tormented ’til sept. 1st. AAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
Daniel
May 15th, 2009
10:35 am
JR- what team that still isn’t playing doesn’t need both of those things?
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
10:38 am
another thing that drives me nuts is reading all of these preposterous trade proposals and who we should pick up.
We are not trading HORFORD NOR JOE JOHNSON. the jj trade is the reason that ASG is in this mess anyway and what makes you think that other teams will give up their best players to take our trash?
Portland is not tradin’ b.roy, lakers are not tradin’ kobe. clev not tradin’ lebron, miami is not tradin’ d. wade. etc. STOP with the foolishness
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
10:43 am
Mike Woodson will not be fired!!! ASG is rollin’ on the cheap!! do you all read the paper or keep up with the hawks? why payoff the rest of woody’s contract then spend top dollar for a “new and improved” coach. nothin’ that ASG has done over the past 4yrs suggest that they would.
you have a cheap coach who has improved the team in every aspect over the past 4 years and 2 playoffs run.
WOODY WON’T BE FIRED!! ASG IS SAVIN’ MONEY!!!!
O'brien
May 15th, 2009
10:46 am
As good as Aaron Brooks is playing, would the Rockets pay Bibby starter money?
Speaking of the Rockets, they are playing without Mutombo, no Yao, and no T-Mac, and they have taken the Lakers and Kobe to 7 games. They’re getting solid contributions from Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes, and very good PG play from Aaron Brooks. The Hawks need bench depth, and we may have to overpay some guys to come here.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
10:46 am
hawks will be pickin’ about 20th this year, there is NOTHING that we can package to get blake griffin or thabeet, stop it with the foolishness!!! like teams 2-19 are not thinkin’ the same thing.
Tonight's Predictions
May 15th, 2009
10:47 am
http://blogs.ajc.com/hawks/2009/05/13/no-need-for-snap-decisions/comment-page-2/#comment-12430
I hate to say I told you so, but…
MannyT
May 15th, 2009
10:48 am
One of my favorite movie quotes… I want the truth!You can’t handle the truth!
You nailed it. Now we wait and see what happens next.
BWAF
Big Rak
May 15th, 2009
10:50 am
So JR what are we going to do at the 5? Keep playing Hofford out of position? We need some size. Do you not like Thabeet? He is a true center by the way. And can do everything Hofford can, maybe not right away. But I think he would be a best in the east. Him and Smith protrolling the paint, sick,
Big Rak
May 15th, 2009
10:53 am
Ant banks you don’t think that Al Hofford and Ace law would be enough to get to the top of the draft to crab Thabeet. We could even add our on first round draft pick.
Big Rak
May 15th, 2009
10:54 am
Ant banks you don’t think that Al Hofford and Ace law would be enough to get to the top of the draft to grab Thabeet. We could even add our on first round draft pick.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
10:54 am
thoughts?
"see-and-be-seen" Atlanta sports "fans"
May 15th, 2009
10:57 am
Did you see that crowd in Houston last night? Wow, fans that actually wear Rockets gear instead of collared shirts and slacks! You know, REAL FANS!! Hawks fans are coming to the games DRESSED TOO CUTE to see their ALL FLASH, NO FINISH basketball team!! RISE UP, ATLANTA!! BUY SOME DAMN HAWKS MERCHANDISE AND WATCH THE GAME LIKE YOU GIVE A DAMN!!!
O'brien
May 15th, 2009
10:59 am
Big Rak, at least we already have an idea of what we have in Horford. We dont know how Thabeet will translate to the NBA (he might end up in foul trouble a lot). Plus thats too much for the Hawks to give up.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
11:01 am
BIG RAK, the hawks mgt is already the laffin’ stock of the league, if they get rid of horford who was 2nd in rookie of the year, next to durant, for an unproven thabeet, stearn would probably take the franchise away. and why would acie law be attractive to any team? they know that he is injury prone, too
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
11:04 am
Ariose ….come on man, Salim Stoudamire,Salim Stoudamire??????? Eddie House is what Salim should have been. I wonder why it took 6 months for a team to pick him up after being cut from San Antonio. I guess it was his groing-LOL I’ve had a pulled groing and its about 3weeks recovery……call it what it is nobody wanted his services……Jeez
What has he done in the league?????
Lets stop with the Acie Law man luv…. He just is’nt that good and Woody knows it -if he were he would get more time. He has the tools but not the mindset or hunger.If he is our starter at pg next year thats gonna be painful to watch. What has he done to deserve this love he’s getting…… Not a dam thing __
Sund should make a play for Javeel Mcgee…. This guy is active yung and really long. Offer them Marvin , Resign Flip /ZAZA , let Bibby get his walk on and agressively persue Sessions or Heinrich to start and draft a pg
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
11:04 am
JR, why do you think that ASG will get rid of woody? hawks mgt has NO money!! lack of money and 4 years worth of improvin’ the team is reason enuff to keep woody. HE WILL BE THE COACH OF THE ATLANTA HAWKS DURING THE 09-10 SEASON
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
11:04 am
ACIE LAW!!!!!!!ACIE LAW!!!!!!ACIE FREAKING LAW SITTING RIGHT THERE WON’T
COST US ALOT OF MONEY HUH BECAUSE HE IS ALREADY UNDER CONTRACT…PLAY ACIE…..PLAY ACIE …..PLAY ACIE THE COURTNEY LEE KID IN ORLANDO IS A ROOKIE AND LOOK HOW HE IS PLAYING. WOODSON NEEDS TO STOP KILLING JJ AND
TRUST SOME OF THE TALENT WE ALREADY HAVE, WE USED THE 11TH PICK ON ACIE
AND NOW WE DO NOTHING WITH HIM AND THEN HE WALKS AFTER NEXT SEASON AND
GOES SOMEWHERE ELSE AND KILLS US EVERYTIME HE PLAYS AGAINST US.PLAY ACIE
OR WE WILL REGRET LETTING HIM WALK AWAY THE KID WAS A BEAST @ TEXAS AM AND A ALL AMERICAN THAT’S WHAT WRONG WITH US. HE CAN SHOOT AND HE CAN DEFEND MOST OF THE YOUNG PG’S IN THE GAME, HE DID IT @ TEXAS AM. HE IS BIG AND QUICK, MIKE WOODSON LOOK UNDER YOUR NOSE YOU MAY FIND LIGHTENING IN A BOTTLE AND QUIT WORRYING ABOUT YOUR JOB, IF YOU DO IT REALLY GOOD
YOU HAVE NO WORRIES. PLAY ACIE LAW….PLAY ACIE LAW….PLAY ACIE LAW
JR
May 15th, 2009
11:05 am
Hey Bg Rak,
Thabeet would be a great choice, if we could get him. I hate moving Williams or Smith (I’m an unashamed TarHeel and love Smith’s finishes), but if we can’t make Williams or Smith the main shooting option (2) to eventually take Johnson’s place then I don’t see how we can keep both of them. Horford has to be the 4 in the longer run.
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
11:07 am
Ditto Ant Banks……. We are not getting Blake or Thabeet so lets stop.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
11:08 am
IMUS, that makes the MOST sense out of most of these blogs!! how much do you think javeel would want? would it be more or less than what marvin would want?
how is mcghee dfense? marvin was pretty good against lebron-the gold standard in offense players
girly boy
May 15th, 2009
11:09 am
Do a three-team trade between the Vancouver Grizzles, the Kansas City Kings, and the Buffalo Braves to get us a center. If Sund pulls this off, I may even buy a ticket in the lower level when the Hawks play the Washington Bullets on February 30th.
JR
May 15th, 2009
11:11 am
ant,
Yeah, I’m resigned to the fact that Woodson will be back, but the man just can’t coach. He has no game plan other than throwing the ball out there and hoping the great one-on-one talents will get the job done. We have no half court “team” offense and we are constantly out of postion (no help) on defense. Woodson may be a great guy, but when you have a such a young team and two of your main guys (Williams and Smith) have one year of college experience between them, someone has to coach them. Labron and Kobe these guys are not.
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
11:12 am
DAM It….. Acie was a beast in college -again what has he done to help our team. He was supposed to be improved this year and he looked okay at the beginning of the season but fell off in a hurry. Josh Smith will never be a consistent jump shooter -i dont care who he works with or how many jumpers he takes in the summer. Is he ever going to be an all star??? I dont know but I would be really suprised.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
11:17 am
JWILLI120, i am in mgt. employees who call in regularly, i look at them differently and don’t respect them. those who fight thru a cold, come to work ready to do battle with me, i look at them diff., respect them more and i treat them diff. too.
acie law, calls in alot. not much diff. between him and craig claxton. woody hates both of them, so do i.
woody is goin’ to ruin acie’s career, jus like he did with salim, because they tried to ruin his career by “callin’ in. “
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
11:21 am
JR,
hawks are the 3rd youngest team in the league. 3rd and despite all of the flaws that you say we have, we still made a 4th seed in a stronger east? we beat clev at home once, beat the lakers, beat utah and denver.
woody is doin’ somethin’. right
the players are hard headed. we heard him on tv durin’ the last clev game tellin’ the players to quit jackin’ three’s but not one of them STOPPED.
kwooden1
May 15th, 2009
11:21 am
Here’s my May take on what the HAWKS could realistically do, with their current salary situation. (even though I don’t really understand the trades and the salary cap)
#1 – Try to get Amare S. – Personally I don’t think it can or will happen but I believe they have to make a strong run
Realistic Plan
1 – Trade Marvin and Speedy for Przybilla – He’s expendable because of Oden, salaries sort of match? and he was near top 10 in rebound this past reg. season.
2 – Let Zaza go and sign Chris Wilcox – I like Zaza’s heart as much as anyone, but having a C/PF that is more athletic coming off the bench would help.
3 – Trade Evans for Klieza – He can play G and F like Evans and shoots just as well. He’s bigger and a better rebounder. The experiment with Evans locking up the opponents best player just didn’t work.
4 – Resign Bibby 15M for 2 years
This is realistic for next year in terms of salary, but they will probably have to dump some the following year. (got to pay Horford) It also gives them balance, rebounding and another scorer off the bench.
GO HAWKS!!!
doc
May 15th, 2009
11:23 am
ohh ray so funny and so true:
“And as anybody knows, you don’t get something for nothing. But you can get nothing for something. I mean, we DO have Randolph Morris and Speedy Claxton…”
though it may be universal aj it would mean almost total overhaul if bibby and or marvin or important pieces of zaza and flip are not signed before you do it. by important i mean relevant to the recent past success of 2008-2009.
hope we dont get more nothing for something. that is a theme for the summer. my boy rick now dont get me nothing for something.
nunna yo bizznezz
May 15th, 2009
11:25 am
1st off,where do u knuckle heads get off by calling flip murray a PG????
flip is a SG all the way..
a true point guard will set up the offense,open up his passing game to include all players,and most of all create passing lanes by driving to the lane and dishing the rock off..
flip is a dead zone once joe and bibbs is off the floor,because when they are not in and the ball comes to flip,even if someone else is open he does not pass it off and the ball is just that,DEAD IN FLIPS HAND..its,me,me,me..but thats ok,because he is a shooter/scorer,and i would not have him any other way..
but,its woodsons fault to bring him in handling the rock,which is something he is not ready to do night in and night out!!
2nd,HAWK STR8TALK HIT IT DEAD ON THE HEAD WHEN HE SAID:
I think a trade of Acie and Josh would be in order. Not b/c I think that’s best for the franchise, but b/c it’s apparent that Woodson is from the Larry Brown school (with much less coaching acumen) where he needs a veteran team that can be leaders and already versed what is necessary to win a championship. That’s a tall order for Sund to fulfill in one or two offseasons, but that’s the only way Woodson can be successful. He is not a take any team and utliize their strengths/minimize their weaknesses/groom their young players for a championship type coach.
He is a take what you have and tell them what to do, but not design or show them what to do coach. Plus, he’s coached as if he had to win every game to keep his job (which is probably true) coach. .That’s why Joe was run into the ground and why players aren’t getting development minutes b/c he feels (rightly or wrongly) that he has to win every battle (regular season games) with little regard to winning the war (postseason).
EVERYTHING IS ON POINT!!!!!!!
AND ITS THE SAME REMARKS THAT I MAKE ON MY SPORTS TALK SHOW…
3RD,THE DEVELOPEMENT OF OUR BENCH…
THOMAS GARDNER..
Gardner has a good combination of strength, speed, and athleticism for a SG. He has a pretty solid build and possesses about average athleticism for a SG in the NBA. He is fast in getting up and down the court and also moves well within the halfcourt, where he can change direction quickly to get himself open on offense.
Gardner’s greatest skill is his shooting, especially from long range. He has a high and quick release with range out to the NBA three-point line. He shoots with good, consistent mechanics and is especially accurate when spotting up. He can also shoot it off the dribble and usually maintains good balance in doing so. He responds pretty well to hands in his face and doesn’t let it alter his motion. The majority of his shooting is done from behind the arc, but he can also step in to hit mid-range shots. He can get himself open without the ball by using his speed to lose his defender.
Passing is another of Gardner’s strengths, due to his strong court vision. He has good recognition for when his teammates are open and makes strong, crisp passes to get them the ball.
Defensively, Gardner shows good ability as a perimeter defender. He possesses strong lateral quickness and reaction speed, allowing him to stay in front of his man. He is fundamentally sound with his footwork and technique. He keeps his center of gravity low and his arms extended while moving laterally to stay in front of his man.
thomas gardner who is unknown to hawks fans and most in the nba because of the lack of player developement that woody employs..
and u want to keep this guy as your head coach???
not me..
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
11:27 am
Listen people you draft a kid with the 11th pick, he come to the organization with high hopes and then the coach does NOTHING with you or your development, the kid then feels like the organization doesn’t
want you so his confidence is shot, everytime he is in a game if he makes a mistake he is taken out and never put back on the floor,what does this to the kid, cp3 made mistakes, derron williams made mistakes,
hell even derrick rose made mistakes but these teams have real coaches
that coach these kids up and look at what turned into MIKE WOODSON needs
to COACH EM UP, let them make mistakes they become better afterwards,
COACH EM UP WOODSON Huh that’s what a real COACH does
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
11:30 am
Ant …He is still on a rookie contract so i dont know what it would take as far as the numbers, but that yungn is plenty defensive….Imagine Josh’s jumping ability at 7ft wit a 7′8 wing span. When we played them he put up 18/11 and 3 blocks -also a cupl thunderous dunks over Horford and Smoove -that sold me right there….. Plus he’s a yung kid whos only going to get better. The problem is would woody play the guy- If he came here and outperformed Horford and ZAZA he still probably wouldnt see much time becuz of our Coach….now that i think about it that would happen to any talented yungn coming in……… Lets get a real coach to change the culture around here
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
11:34 am
another disappointin’ or curious thing about ASG, beyond flip and mo evans, the hawks are garbage. why did they pick up randolf morris.
he should be ashamed of bein’ 6-11. all that height and can’t play bball.
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
11:39 am
jwill120……. Shyt happens -but is the player able to shake it off and play up to his abilities -in this case no. If AC was a starting Pg he would be staarting or gettin significant minutes. Nevermind the Draft position..he looks scared and timid on the court and most important he doesnt produce when given the opprotunity.
Look at Suckey-a player i wanted in the 07 draft….. Yungn stayed focused and performed when he got playing time nw he’s the future in DTOWN……. ACIE= yunger Anthony Johnson
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
11:40 am
STUCKEY>>>
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
11:42 am
Enter your comments here
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
11:48 am
IMUS I disagree with you because if stucky came to ATL then Woodson does the same to him as he is with AC then you would say that stucky is scared and looks timid, so getting rid of MR BIG SHOT for Stucky was good for DTOWN, Denver is in the WCF and Dtown is just like Atown watching MR BIG SHOT in the WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS.
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
11:58 am
Stucky was developed in Dtown WOODSON doesn’t KNOW HOW TO DEVELOPE YOUNG
PLAYERS IF HE DID WE WOULD BE IN A BETTER POSITION AT THAT POSITION,I
rest my case, another player that needs developing is MARIO WEST.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
12:35 pm
Go Hawks!!
doc
May 15th, 2009
12:51 pm
interesting development in orlando between howard and his coach. howard came through and sometimes it takes a player to standup and challenge the coach though howard when asked what did he learn he said to keep my mouth shut.
funny to see coach’s double speak …” Van Gundy said he didn’t change his strategy at all, and compared Howard’s comments to an argument between himself and his wife.
“When she gets on me for something, my first reaction is to blame someone else,” Van Gundy said. “To make an excuse. To do something else, because I don’t like being criticized. And I think when Dwight gets into a game, his first thing is, ‘I don’t want the blame.’ This is just my guess.
“But when you step back and look at it, I usually realize the person who’s been on me has a point. And then it’s time to step up and do the job.” ”
does anyone else see the complete inconsistency?
again i ask how long before it has to happen here?
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
12:53 pm
a
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
12:56 pm
JWILLI120,
stuckey folded under the pressure, too. his inexperience showed durin’ the tail end of the season. dtroit was in 5th seed and dropped to 8th, almost missed the playoffs and then got drilled by clev.
not sure if stuck dawg was the answer or not, but i do respect detroit for makin’ a decision rather than standin’ pat.
jhan
May 15th, 2009
12:59 pm
The Hawks are looking for next years Delonte West – they might possibly have him sitting on their bench (Acie Law). We’ll never know until the kid gets some PT. I believe that this team would have been a 5/6 seed at worst if Acie had been give a steady 15-18 minutes per game.
Now we would know exactly what we have with Acie & what we need to do at the PG position.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
1:02 pm
DOC,
who on this team, other than josh will stand up to woody. oh yeah, bibby had a snap back at him, but none of these guys have the guts or heart to say how dumb woody’s schemes are.
no one has the heart to tell josh to quit jackin’ trays or the guts to tell him to remain after practice for 45mins to work on the tray shot
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
1:02 pm
Developement?? …Stuckey is just a better player, they traded Billups becuz they felt he was ready to take over their team. He didnt start until Billups got traded so he roughly got the same playing time as Acie….. I will agree that woody is horrible developing players but if Stuckey were here he would’nt have a choice but play the guy-The same way he was forced to play horford over ZAZA……. He’s just a better player my man and Ac is a bench player.
Even before the trade i said that guy is a good PG and will get alot better —-AC Law not so much
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
1:05 pm
Detroit fell off becuz AI is a one man show and the players never got comfy playing with him – Trading their best player didnt help either but ive seen more potential in Stuckey in 42 games than ive seen from Law in 2 full years …….injury , playing time , developement yada yada yada………. He’s not that good and i dont want him running our team
niremetal
May 15th, 2009
1:18 pm
Stuckey is just a better player, they traded Billups becuz they felt he was ready to take over their team. He didnt start until Billups got traded so he roughly got the same playing time as Acie
Roughly the same amount of playing time? In their rookie seasons, Stuckey averaged 19 minutes to Law’s 12.7. That’s a huge freaking difference, especially for a young player. And Acie’s minutes have gone down this year. So how the hell can we expect Acie to get better? I don’t buy for a second that you can develop a player by playing him in practice.
The problem is that Woody doesn’t do a good job developing anyone other than “can’t miss” prospects. A guy like Travis Outlaw would have withered and died on the vine if he’d played under Woody rather than McMillan.
niremetal
May 15th, 2009
1:21 pm
*Law had 15.4mpg, not 12.7. But the point holds. 3.6 minutes is a big difference when you’re a bench player. That’s an extra 11-12 possessions per game that you’re on the floor.
niremetal
May 15th, 2009
1:23 pm
And PS – Acie Law’s per minute production went up this year even as his total minutes got chopped by 35%.
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
1:31 pm
they once said JORDAN was a one man show and would never win a championship he won a total hu let me see …….6. My point is under the right leadership and alot of work and determination anything can happen Imus, we are quick to throw or blow things up, I am Georgia
all the way (braves, bulldogs, hawks, falcons) i just think we should keep what we have and build from the core ie(FALCONS have the right idea). How many Players have we ran out of Georgia only to see them go
elsewhere and become what we wanted them to be but we didn’t have the patience to wait for them. Taht is all i’m saying.
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
1:32 pm
hey a new word taht (meaning that)
dap01
May 15th, 2009
1:38 pm
Woody has one agenda and that is not developing players like AC. It is simply compiling wins to save his no offense, blank face, no tactician, terrible motivator, poor adjustments, terrible coach self.
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
1:38 pm
finally someone feels my pain thanks for the insight NIRE you hit the nail right on the head, Good thing we didn’t draft CP3 or Derrron they may have been in the same boat as AC is in without a paddle LOL
ShatteredDreams
May 15th, 2009
1:39 pm
Trade Mike Bibby and two draft choices for Chris Paul. After acquiring Paul, fire Mike Woodsen and hire Avery Johnson to replace him. Rehire Mike Woodsen as an assistant coach. Promote Josh Smith to guard since he has been playing out of position at the guard position all season long (dribbling the basketball foolishly until he turns it over). Promote Flip Murrary to the starting unit and trade Marvin Williams for Boston’s Eddie House.
doc
May 15th, 2009
1:42 pm
ant b on your comment:
“stuckey folded under the pressure, too. his inexperience showed durin’ the tail end of the season. dtroit was in 5th seed and dropped to 8th, almost missed the playoffs and then got drilled by clev.”
does that mean bibby needs to go because as a vet we got drilled worse than detroit did and we were the five seed? what i am saying is and yu know it as well is it was probably more about the team than just stuckey. remember AI quit or was hurt to lose a lot of fire power duirng that same stretch you refer to where stcukey folded. was it that or the team quit along with AI?
besides wouldnt you say big shoes to fill as well as billips surprisingly leads denver into the finals. how many on the blog immediately called las vegas to put down their money KNOWING that was going to happen. as folks know cant say enough about what billips and his coach, george karl have down. if not he mvp and coach of the year certainly need to be next in line. go denver!
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
1:45 pm
Alot of interesting comments on this blog, we all want the same for our beloved hawks some of us just want to do it a different way because in all honesty i don’t believe the ASG will spent what it takes to get that done so we work with what we got and what we can get for the CHEAP
CHEAP and that’s not much ya feel me IMUS. We are all in this together.
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
1:53 pm
doc, Howard choked at the free throw line in the 4th quarter and was bailed out by Rashard Lewis. Sure, he scored 20 but he didn’t score 20 because they ran plays for him like he was Hakeem or Ewing. At one point, I’m pretty sure he was like 1-6 from the free thro line in the 4th quarter. It wasn’t until Lewis took over in the 4th that the Magic won that game.
And in the case of the Hawks, I’m pretty sure that Smith took almost as many shots as Joe in the playoffs (Heat & Cavs). Smith can’t possibly complain about a lack of touches.
And Stuckey did suck in the end of the regular season. If memory serves me correctly, it was Will Bynum who had to secure their playoff spot by having a record-setting 4th quarter while Stuckey did very little. Dumars seems to think that players would welcome the chance to live in metro Detroit. We’ll see in the next 2-3 months if he’s right. I have a feeling that he messed up with his player deals and with dumping Flip for Curry.
RaJaH
May 15th, 2009
1:55 pm
I MUS
It took ZaZa getting hurt for Woody to realise that Horford belonged in the starting line up.
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
2:20 pm
RaJaH, I’m pretty certain that Horford started from the first game of his rookie season.
Stan Van Gundy on making adjustments:
“Not that you don’t think about what they might do, but it’s not a matter of anticipating what he might do. It’s being prepared hopefully for whatever may come. You don’t want to be in a guessing game and say,’Oh, well, we guessed wrong’ — and then lose. You’ve got to be prepared for anything that will come.
“The adjustment thing is a little overplayed. There [are] minor adjustments from game to game. But we pretty much know Paul Pierce is a pretty good player and they’ll probably go to him. Ray Allen, they’re going to try to get him shots … You can run a different play here or there, they may come and double-team Rashard [Lewis]‘ post-ups. You know the team’s basic game. And neither one of us is going to do anything to the other team that you haven’t seen before. I mean, I’ve got no revolutionary scheme here that I can throw out there that Doc [Rivers] and his coaching staff are going to be baffled with my genius because they’ve never seen this before. You prepare to try to do what you think is going to be best. Whatever you take away, you’re going to give up something else, and you hope they cant capitalize on it. So there’s no perfect adjustments or anything.”
Sautee
May 15th, 2009
2:22 pm
doc,
about this: “again i ask how long before it has to happen here?”
You’re asking about accountability with Woodson? And the basg?
Do NOT hold your breath my friend, do not hold your breath.
Sautee
May 15th, 2009
2:25 pm
AJ,
Yeah, and with all that said, the Magic DID INDEED force feed the ball to Howard in game 6.
So was that an adjustment?
Melvin
May 15th, 2009
2:32 pm
Astro,
After reading Van Gundy post game comments, I will repost my original comment from last nite prior to Paul choking at the freethrow line that gave Orlando victory.
Sautee,
Van Gundy is so fired if they lose on Sunday. Thats what I believe Doc was saying and I agree.
Melvin
May 14th, 2009
10:18 pm
If the Magic get eliminated by the Celtics and they fire their Head Coach. Can we justify not firing Woody if a coach who won more games then him get the AX???????????
jwilli120
May 15th, 2009
2:37 pm
So how do we make this TEAM better if the A$$hole Stuip Goobers(ASG)isn’t and willing to get us what we need to get to the next level, the cav’s basically added mo williams and that got them over the hump, anyone remember Daniel Gibson? He is still there he is the Cav’s AC now
buried on the bench.
ant banks
May 15th, 2009
2:46 pm
does anyone know when the ownership issues will be resolved with the “Unspirite Group.”
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
2:56 pm
Nirmental….im not gonna measure dycks with you. We are talking about 3 minutes..3 minutes- If he was what we needed we all would have seen it by now. Sorry dude i cant wait another 2 years for him to develope, I mean if the higher ups felt he was the one -we wouldnt be playing flip at the point. Jus my 2 cents
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
3:11 pm
Sautee, I don’t understand your point. Howard got more touches but couldn’t convert those touches at a decent rate (especially in crunch time). His 4th quarter free throw shooting nearly cost the team a victory. So did Van Gundy make a bad adjustment? Is that your question?
Melvin, George Karl lose 4 consecutive first round playoff series prior to this year. Dumars fired Saunders for failing to get out of the conference finals. Isn’t every team/coach a different situation? Heck, Dumars just traded away his team’s best player for a combo guard who doesn’t appear any more special than any other combo guard. Should we trade Joe to make room for Acie’s growth? What does one team have to do with another?
al c.
May 15th, 2009
3:14 pm
da hawks are outsized, bibby and johnson at guards, smith at sf horford at pf, we need a true 7 footer at center. Bring flip and marvin off da bench. We need to get taller and a deeper bench. We can’t continue to use a 8 man rotation. How do young players get experience, by setting on the bench?
O'brien
May 15th, 2009
3:17 pm
We talk about Bibby hitting big shots, but as he gets older and slower, his skills (and lack of defense) will get worse. A 2 year deal is the most we should give him.
Rondo’s first year, he was horrible. But he consistently got PT and coaching. Even now, his jump shot is very inconsistent (and he had no jump shot at Kentucky), but he plays good defense, and he can penetrate. Acie Law was Mr. Big Shot his senior year, so I think his stroke will come in time. I think if Acie stays healthy and is given 16-22 minutes every game, he can be a very solid contributor for us, and we will be able to find out if he is our PG of the future. We all have our opinions, but there is not enough sample size to come to a conclusion.
Melvin
May 15th, 2009
3:42 pm
Astro,
What Im saying is that Woody is replaceable if Sund choose to go that route. There is an undertone on the blog that since Woody record improve every year as to why we shouldn’t fire him when they’re other coaches who have accomplish more than him that has received pink slips. It would be business as usual if Sund decide to bring new personnel.
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
3:45 pm
I heard Jarrett Jack interviewed on the radio this afternoon. I’m now on board the Jack bandwagon (don’t get me wrong, I still prefer Hinrich and probably Sessions is second, but Jack is now a close third). I think he would bring many of the intangibles this team needs. Toughness, leadership, work ethic. And maybe (assuming Mark Price sticks), the two former Yellow Jackets will bond and Jack will become a dead-eye jump shooter. Heaven knows, he would likely spend hours upon hours working hard at it if given the chance.
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
3:56 pm
Melvin, okay. I agree, Woody is most definitely replaceable. But at least in the case of Van Gundy and Saunders, they were fired after not taking their team any further than the previous season. I’m not quite sure that we’ve seen a coach fired after a trend line like Woody’s. But again, he is replaceable.
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
3:57 pm
Sorry, if they fired SVG… and the Magic GM has already indicated that won’t happen.
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
4:05 pm
Horford started from day1…..but he got his shot because ZAZA had an injury, I think he was banged up during veterans camp. He would have been the starting center eventually but he performed when he got a chance……..
John G
May 15th, 2009
4:05 pm
Nice blog, and I agree with the importance of the Bibby decision. But if the philosophy of Woody is “defense”, Bibby doesn’t fit the role. And at $15 ml/yr, he is certainly overpriced. We can certainly find a point gaurd who can shoot 40%, play defense, and properly “quarterback” a team at a budget of <$10 ml a year. Andre Miller comes to mind immediately. We need a “good” PG, not a superstar (think about the previous championship teams).
I believe the biggest move that Sund has to make is the #5 spot. I don’t believe Horford is the ideal #5, but will/can be a great #4. This will also allow Smith to move to the #3 spot. Zaza and Solo should be resigned to come off the bench, but we need a big fella to start and fill the lanes and crash the boards.
Flip and Mo were the critical x-factors in the Hawks success this year. With multiple injuries to the starters, they filled in the gaps very nicely, and came off the bench capable of scoring 12-20 points. Definitely keep them especially at $1.5 ml/year apiece.
Which brings us to Maaaavin. This was supposed to be his “coming out” year in preparation for his free agent status. Too bad injuries disrupted that plan. At any rate, if he is negotiating for more than his $5 ml current salary, I say “we wish you good luck with your next team”.
In short, dump Bibby and Marvin and get a quality PG and C; keep Zaza, Solo, Mo, and Flip for a solid bench. Run more creative offensive sets so JJ doesn’t have to work his a** off creating his own shot playing 42 min a game. The the practice of playing ISO then passing to the open man will not get us past the 2nd round. Instruct the team to tackle Smith next time he attempts a shot longer than 12 ft. (obviously Woody isn’t getting to him). Finally, when we get to the playoffs next year, let’s not go “bush league” with t-shirt and towel giveaways. Come-on!
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
4:09 pm
John G, let me get this straight, you’re moving Smith to SF and he’s not allowed to shoot anything over 12 feet? Well, I guess that worked for Adrian Dantley. Sounds strange to me.
mykhalc
May 15th, 2009
4:33 pm
ShatteredDreams, wake up…wake up!!! man you were havin’ a real bad convoluted dream. sorry to wake you but it was necessary!!!LOL
fudd21
May 15th, 2009
4:43 pm
Astro it worked for Dantley because he had perimeter oriented teammates that could spread the floor. John G wants Smith to move to SF and not shoot outside 12 feet. How will he ever have an open shot with Horford and this big fella clogging up the middle. Hmmmm. But the real funny comment to me was his suggestion of ZaZa, Mo, Flip, and Solo as a solid bench. Maybe I missed it but wasn’t that our bench this year and didn’t we see that it was anything from solid. I’m just saying.
Clyde
May 15th, 2009
4:54 pm
They trippin on this blog. They won’t let me say FIRE WOODY by itself anymore. Has Woody got influenced Sekou to ban my trademark?
We Need Thabet. Horford, Law and our first round pick for the #1 pick in the draft.
pg-Andre Miller
sg-JJ
sf-Jchill
pf-Jsmooth
c-Thabet
I MUS.WRITE
May 15th, 2009
5:03 pm
Come on Clyde……. Whos gonna shoot the ball besides JJ. That lineup is a wack sandwich….HAHAHA Fire Clyde!!!! Again
The Truth
May 15th, 2009
5:13 pm
About AL and Josh moving to their natural position; I’m sorry but I’m in the camp of prove it to me!
Al Horford – Until AL can prove to me that he can consistently knock down midrange jumpers and develops a formable post game on offense, I say leave him at the 5 position. He is an excellent rebounded even as a tweener and better than average defender despite his size limitation. The only upgrade here is for either Al to get bigger, stronger and develop and better offensive game or for the team to acquire a true center and AL to come off the bench leading the second unit or be traded.
Josh Smith – Until Josh develops a consistent midrange jumper and 3-point shot, he should stay as at the 4 position where he creates mismatches with his defender. Even then, I like am better at the 4 position. Since his shot blocking ability is exceptional, he would be handicapped away from the basket at the SF position. The only upgrade here is for Josh to develop a better more consistent jump shooting game and stay at the 4 position and we trade Marvin for an SF upgrade if we don’t believe he has anymore more up side with the Hawks. However, as I previously wrote, there is a down-side to trading Marvin because of his length and rebounding ability. At the very least, we would create a rebounding void that would have to be filled by someone else.
MannyT
May 15th, 2009
5:19 pm
Astro,
When Josh gets a post up game like AD, he can play where ever he wants. Like Barkley, he was the master of the undersized, inside player. I don’t recall the last time I saw Smith back anyone down and spin for an easy hoop.
Nowdays, most of the big men can’t post like Dantley did. It’s a lost art.
doc/Sautee–After reading that article that Sekou linked about Billups, I am almost ready to call him up and let him tell us who to get as our next PG. The guy is a rare breed. A professional who happens to play basketball.
mykhalc–I REFUSE to wake up. I don’t want reality messing with my Atlanta dream…not my WNBA Atlanta Dream, but my dream of continued improvement for the Hawks.
People are talking about this season like we were Rob Lowe and got married to the chubby hat check girl. In fact it was more like we were his little brother Chad and we got to tumble in the hay with the movie starlets all season. It was a better run than expected. Let’s figure out how to keep it going
BWAF
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
5:35 pm
Amen, Manny.
ha ha ha
May 15th, 2009
5:39 pm
I MUS.WRITE the more you type the more I laugh… Your argument about Wooding knowing Law isn’t good lost all credibility.. Woody knows talent? Ha Ha Ha Ha.. This is the same guy who thought Chris Paul was too little to defend in the NBA, couldn’t shoot, and didn’t think he would be that good overall. So how did that player assessment work out? He did not like Deron Williams.. Once again how did that player assessment work out? Woodson thought Diaw was a pg when everyone in the world knew he wasn’t, killed the kids confidence and buried him on the bench… Oh yea how did that work out? Acting as if Woodson knows talent is as funny as someone thinking Pachulia could win a dunk contest. It just ain’t happening…
Lmao@the Stuckey lap riding.. Stuckey is a taller version of Law. They put up similar numbers their rookie year.. Difference is when Stuckey played well in the playoffs they kept giving him minutes to build his confidence.. Law played well his first game in the playoffs and barely saw the court again last year… I know right now Detroit wish they still had Billips. Stuckey is not what they thought he was. Funny thing is he shoots a lower percentage than Law from deep. And they booth shoot horribly from the field. Difference is Law is better at setting up his teammates…. So let me ask you this question… If Stuckey shoots as poor as Law and is even a worse playmaker how would he have received more pt than Law? Dont worry Ill wait for this answer lmao. Amazing that a guy who shoots worse than the one we have on the bench and is even worse at actually setting up his teammates would actually be better here knowing the history of Woodson and young pgs..
Oh yea I forgot this is the same coach who worked out Rondo and did not like him. One more thing, he didn’t even bother at trying to get Roy in for a workout because he didnt want another sg.. But this man knows talent lmao lmao lmao.. Oh yea and the other guy was right. Pachulia was the starter until he got hurt. That is why Pachulia was acting like a brat last year because he lost his starting job…
doc
May 15th, 2009
5:49 pm
iaj and manny t, ditto. i had fun his past year. it is only i see us as a team of five under contract, six if randmo is included and not 15 anymore. we only had two really to deal with last year and fumbled one. guess i am a bit jaded after that experience, can only look forward to more drama. so the summer should be filled with fun and excitement just like the season was. doesnt matter to me on making a decision to buy tix which i did at the last minute for the just past season. got em early this year and ready to roll when whoever they bring together comes on the court.
go hawks!
O'brien
May 15th, 2009
5:51 pm
For the record, Josh Smith is not a SF. We complained about Marvin not being able to make the 3, and people talk about Josh moving to the 3 spot. Have you seen his jump shot?
Woody does what he does. When Al Harrington was here, he got a lot of PT over Marvin. Woody played Josh and Chills because he literally had no choice. Horford started over Zaza because Zaza got hurt. When Josh was out earlier in the season, Solo played well. What happened when Josh came back? No PT for Solo. Woody is not known for player development or offensive systems. And I think we could easily bring in another coach who could get us the same results. Chemistry and continuity between the players is one thing, but who needs continuity from Woody?
Woody likes vets because they make his job easier. He has no offensive system, and very little adjustment capability. As much as I like Sessions, I wonder if Woody will let him play throuh his mistakes and his learning curve?
niremetal
May 15th, 2009
5:58 pm
“Woody showed that he had no role for Claxton. He treated him like Frank Burns. (How’s that for contextual blogging, niremetal.) Speedy made a statement by skipping his final team meeting.”
MannyT is now my hero.
O'brien
May 15th, 2009
5:59 pm
By the way, NBAdraft.net has the Hawks taking Jeff teague (PG from Wake Forest) with the 19th pick, and then taking PG Rodrigue Beaubois (PG from France) with the 49th pick. How much sense does that make?
By the way, Sekou, any updates about David Andersen and Cenk Akyol? Those are 2 second round picks that the Hawks have gotten nothing from. And then you add Salim and Solo, and clearly the Hawks just dont know how to draft (and develop) second round players.
niremetal
May 15th, 2009
6:12 pm
Cenk has his own website now:
http://www.cenkakyol41.com/
It’s all in Turkish and the videos are 3 years old. But hey – most of our players don’t have their own website.
Statistically, Andersen dropped off this year and Akyol was virtually invisible.
niremetal
May 15th, 2009
6:22 pm
This is from a year-old scouting report on Andersen:
Let’s start with the bad:
As far as weaknesses are concerned, you have to start with his defense, which is incredibly poor. He shows very little in the ways of fundamentals here, not being physical at all trying to deny his man space, showing average awareness defending the pick and roll, and looking pretty soft in general on this end of the floor. He’s not a shot-blocking threat at all, and just isn’t much of a presence in the paint in general, something that opposing teams seem to take advantage of if they have a strong back to the basket player they can throw the ball to. He’s also just an OK rebounder.
So he’s not our answer as far as getting a defensive big man, his 6′11 frame notwithstanding. We’d be better off bringing in someone like Okur. On the other hand…
Offensively, the impression that we’re looking at an NBA caliber big man only increases when evaluating with the terrific versatility that Andersen displays. We’re talking about an ambidextrous player who produces both in the low post as well as facing the basket, and can also do some things in between as well. Andersen has some raw back to the basket skills, being capable of backing his man down to a certain extent and finishing with a pretty jump-hook with either hand, or a phenomenal turnaround jumper. He has excellent touch here, but isn’t the toughest big man you’ll find around, and thus has problems finishing in traffic at times, especially when faced with contact.
Facing the basket is where Andersen looks more comfortable, as you can tell by the phenomenal percentage he shoots from behind the 3-point line, an astounding 61%. His mid-range jumper is also excellent—he’s very dangerous on the pick and pop–and if there was any doubt about his touch, consider that he shoots an amazing 91% from the free throw line. He can also put the ball on the floor, not showing the greatest first step, but just serving as another weapon he has at his disposal to keep the defense honest. He’s also an excellent passer, evidenced by his positive assist to turnover ratio. Generally speaking, he’s a mistake free player who seems to know his role on the floor and is very efficient on top of that.
Probably our best bet would be to find a team interested in him, and trade his rights as part of a package.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2009
6:38 pm
Trading talented players because the mediocre coach doesn’t know how to use them is a terrible idea. I saw a post earlier that said Josh and Acie should be traded because Woody needs a team with veterans. Why the hell should management bend to Woody? The team is (hopefully) not designed around him. As the coach, it’s his job to put his team in a position to succeed by putting his players in a position to succeed. It’s not Josh’s or Acie’s (or anyone else’s) fault if he’s not capable of doing this.
Count me in among the people who firmly think Josh is a power forward. Moving him to SF would be a terrible idea — the fact that his jumper is bad is one reason, but maybe a more glaring reason is that he doesn’t have the handles to take people off the dribble. He belongs in either the high post or the low post, and PF is the position that will allow him to excel. I don’t think having Josh at PF and Al at C in the long run is necessarily a bad thing, but if it turns out the Hawks have a chance to upgrade their size inside by giving up one or the other I’d rather keep Josh and trade Al than move Al to PF and trade Josh. I just think Josh, being only six months older than Al, is much further along in his offensive development and much more versatile. But I definitely don’t think moving Josh to the 3 and Al to the 4 is a working solution.
O’Brien: I don’t think NBADraft.net figures in team needs until the lottery order is decided. Until then I think they just rank players by best player available.
Ariose: count me in among the people who think Salim can be an Eddie House-type for a good team if given the opportunity. I don’t think he’ll ever be a guy who warrants playing more than 15-20 minutes a game unless he seriously improves his defense and handles, but there are definitely worse backup guards than him on NBA rosters right now. If JJ Redick can start a playoff game, Salim can get some NBA minutes.
And while Acie continues to be a hot topic… Sekou, have you ever asked some of your scout friends what they think of him? Clearly many of us think he can be at least a good NBA point guard, whereas some others on this blog think he’s a scrub. What do the experts think?
HAWKS 4 Life
May 15th, 2009
6:51 pm
1. The Hakws Need A Center. I Say Go After Pryzbilla From The Blazers. He Isnt Going To Score A Bunch Of Points But He Will Add TOUGHNESS, And REBOUNDING to The Hawks!!!
2. SLide Horford To The 4 and Smith to the 3. YYYYYYYYY Do People Keep Saying Smith Needs A Jumpshot To Become A 3. Tashaun Prince Doenst Have The Best 3 Point Shot But The Pistons Still Won Championship!! We Can Run A Offense Where Smith Doesnt Have To Spread The Floor At All Time. He Needs To Work On His DRIBBLING. Then Maybe U Can ISO Him and Spread The Floor With Bibby And Johnson..
3. Johnson Played Too Many Minutes.. I Understand Y He Had A Bad Playoff Series.
4. NO WAY IN HELL DO U TRADE JOE JOHNSON. With One Second On The Clock Down One He Is The Only Player I Trust With The Ball. Without Him Who Do U Give It To?? Josh?? LOL HELL NO
5. Woody Has To Kno By Now That We Cant Switch On Every Pick And Roll. That IS THE REASON Y WERE NOT AN ELITE TEAM! People Keep Saying Its Our Offense But Its Really Our Defense!!
6. 2009 Lineup
Pg. Bibby
Sg. Joe
Sf. Josh
Pf. Horford
C. Pryzbilla Or Camby Or Bynum
Pg 2. AC
Sg 2. Flip (he is not a pg)
Sf 2. Marvin
Pf 2. Solo
C 2. Zaza
We Can Afford To Lose Mo And Childress’s Rights and Speedy For A Center!
jhan
May 15th, 2009
7:04 pm
A consistent jumpshot & a 3pt shot are totally different things. A SF should have a good jumpshot but doesn’t really have to be killer from 3pt land. Josh Smith has neither so moving him to full time SF seems like a very bad move to me.
If you want Josh on this team he really needs to play PF. He has pathetic handles & his jumpshot is not much better. He excels in the paint & moving towards the basket. That’s where he needs to stay.
I have to agree with Ando – choose 2 between Marvin, Josh & Al and get this team balanced. Whichever one you don’t want you trade him & whatever else you must to get a quality post player.
Lose Bibby & hopefully his salary slot will allow us to sign a long-term answer at PG & a high quality role player for the bench.
deb1820
May 15th, 2009
7:26 pm
It would be nice if the Hawks could get Javeel Mcgee, I also like Ryan Hollins, he will be a restricted free agent this summer. The Hawks need an athletic center (7 feet) and another scorer like Ben Gordon to come off the bench. I like Marvin, but he doesn’t have good foot work and he looks lost sometimes in the offense. I don’t know if that’s coaching or just Marvin. He has a nice jump shot, but when he drives the ball, his mechanics are way off.
If I could make the changes my team would look like this:
PG – Mike Bibby – 2 years 15 million
G – Joe Johnson
F – Josh Smith, if he works on his jump shot during the off season
PF – Al Horford – needs to work on post moves, nice if Karl Malone could teach him
C – Ryan Hollins
Bench –
PG – AC Law, Ben Gordon
G – Ben Gordon, Flip Murray
F – Marvin, Mo Evans
PF – Solomon, work on his offense
C – Zaza
bigdave
May 15th, 2009
8:00 pm
deb1820… im with you there sir…
Hollins and McGee are both young, long, athletic (jump out da gym) true centers… but i doubt neither of their respected franchises would part ways.. well, maybe Dallas might be intrigued by bringing Acie Law home… he would thrive with the Mavs…
I also would like to see a MONSTER like Brandon Bass added to our club…
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
8:10 pm
Could someone PLEASE tell me why the Wizards are trading a young, athletic and cheap center to a division rival? Please, anyone, please? Can we at least consider “what’s in it for the other team” while we’re entertaining these wild trade ideas? Or, if not, then let’s just trade RandMo for Dwight Howard and Acie for Chris Paul and we’re done.
Blast
May 15th, 2009
8:25 pm
Though we had been talking about the off season ever since Hawks got knocked out, Sekou surely threw a bone out there, and folks are biting like crazy!
So much crazy talk on the blog. Fans seems to want Hawks to get every player in the league, regardless of if those players want to play here, whether salaries match, if the NBA would approve the trades, or if the ASG can afford to pay all these guys! Lol! Slow your roll, folks!
Listen people. Remember last off season and all the speculations, one thing for sure. No way Sund is gonna let us know his plans. He’s just gonna do em. That’s been the ASG style. We might be in for a long wait, though Sekou said a move might be in the works right now.
I know this for a fact:
Woody will be back next year. The old time bloggers said it all. ASG operating on the cheap will not fire Woody (who has won more games every year he’s been here) and hire another coach and still have to pay Woody. Not in these sad economic times. Woody will ride out his contract. I don’t care much for his coaching style, his offensive scheme(s?) stinks, switching every play on defence worked in the regular season, but not in the playoffs. Still, Woody ain’t going nowhere next season. I just pray he improves as a coach.
Hawks will keep these players: Joe, Josh, Al, Zaza, Flip, and maybe Bibby for less money.
I do not believe Hawks need to trade Joe, Josh or Al to get better. I think they have enough assets to dangle instead. Speedy’s contract, Chills rights, Marvin. Bibby’s expiring contract will be huge, regardless if he returns. Folks are saying get a superstar like they grow on trees. Since there is none in the horizon, Hawks need to build a team that is deep at all positions, a team that scraps and fights. Check out the Rockets playing without Yao and Tracy.
Hawks needs to clear their bench of those deadbeat players that do not contribute. Hawks need to call Portland, who has so many big men they can’t play them all. I like the Marvin/Acie for Joel Przybilla trade, though I would prefer Marvin/Chills rights for Joel or Marvin/Speedy’s expiring. Don’t wanna give up on Acie yet. I doubt if Childress will return to the Hawks.
In closing, Hawks needs a big center badly. Known all season, but Cleveland series made it glaring. We need a point, whether Bibby stays or not. Hinrich would be nice if we could get him. If Hawks can get a good center, trade Marvin and sign someone like Kirk, then you can start Bibby, Hinrich at 2, Joe at 3, Josh at 4, and Horford comes off the bench to spell Josh and your 5. Your bench would be Horford, Zaza, Flip, Acie. Get rid of Morris, get rid of Speedy, get rid of Gardner and Hunter if you’re not gonna play them, and fill up your roster with enough quality players to go 10 deep or better. Though I like Mario, get rid of him too if he can’t buy a jumpshot. If Bibby walks or is not re-signed, Hawks have a lot of options out there with all that money.
mykhalc
May 15th, 2009
8:28 pm
JOSH’s release is just toooooooooooooo slow to play at the 3 for any extended amount of time. he never shoots his jumper when he is really bein’ contested. and since he doesn’t take full advantage of his strength, takin’ the ball to the rim, then one might as well say, play the position but don’t take the shots that come with the position…kinda like now…how the BRAINLESS ONE puts him out on the 3 pt line. at least that far away he has time to shoot it!!!! geeeeessshhh
as far as BIBBY…i’m a fan so i’d like to see him back. plus we loose his leadership and chemistry that ‘might’ not be so easily replaced. then ya got a not-so-happy sorta team leader in JOE po’ed ’cause his backcourt mate is not around!! BUT if BIBBY is not re-signed then first place i’d look is ANDRE MILLER!!! well actually first place i’d look is…FIRE WOODSON…PERIOD!!!
Rufus1
May 15th, 2009
8:38 pm
Player development in an essential part of a coaches responsibility…The primary way to aquire a superstar is to draft one. Teams seldom trade there superstars, so we have to draft and develop one.
We cannot keep Woodson, he destroys young players.
WOODSON MUST BE POLITELY SHOWN THE DOOR!!!!
Rufus1
May 15th, 2009
8:42 pm
Woodson will cost them more in tickets sales than his 2mil salary..
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
8:43 pm
doc, until we see the ASG actually buy out a contract, I think we have to assume RandMo will be back. So I think the ones who are under contract for sure are JJ, Josh, Horford, Evans, Acie, Speedy and RandMo. Marvin and Chill are RFAs. We own the rights to Andersen (and Akyol). Flip, Bibby, Zaza & Solo are UFAs along with Hunter, West and Gardner. And we have our 1st and 2nd round picks for the coming draft (and beyond). Again, plenty of assets for major and minor transactions.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
8:45 pm
Astro Joe,
One more thing. I really like your idea of trading RandMo for Howard. I’m not sure where we’ll get the drugs from. Maybe Peyote will work. I think that’s how the Louisiana Purchase happened anyway.
On a more serious note, we can’t have Sund (or his bosses) doing things like this again. Woody clearly didn’t see a purpose in playing guys like him, Gardner, Hunter, etc. West got a little burn. But hell, even Solo fell completely off the wagon after the first several games. I still don’t understand what happened there.
I don’t want to hear excuses about having to grab guys like RandMo because the other deals “just didn’t work out.” I know that’s how it happens a lot of times, but guess what? That’s what happens a lot when you mooooove tooooo slooooooow. If Sund is going to get good free agent pickups that will actually help this team (translation: guys that Woody will play regularly, and be effective), then he might want to get a move on, so he can send the requests to the league office shortly after the moratorium is up. We can’t play around. Or we’ll end up with a bench like we have now: unused, and you can take your pick as to why they are unused. With some of them, I think it’s obvious…
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
8:53 pm
Ray, I agree. At the same time, I don’t want to see Raef LaFrentz or Stromile Swft or some other vet who eiter can’t play because he can’t stay healthy (LaFrentz) or can’t play because he can’t play (Swift). I think we can only afford one vet/player coach type mentor (like Juwan Howard was for Charlotte). Beyond that, we need guys capable of 10+ minutes a game for at least 75 games in he season.
Sekou, what ever happened to your boy, Aaron Williams? Is he still in the league?
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
8:54 pm
Jhan,
If you’re saying that Josh MUST stay at the PF position, then you are automatically either assuming that Al Horford is the guy we trade, or that he remains at center. In which case, we aren’t getting any bigger (unless of course you plan on getting us a 7-foot SF). So nothing has changed….
Not arguing, just saying.
Blast
May 15th, 2009
8:57 pm
Hawks needs tough, gritty players that will play hard all the time. Which is why I like Kirk, who also is a scorer. Right now we only have Zaza, and maybe Josh, while championship teams have tons of them. I do like Marvin for his ability to defend the leagues small forward, I just worry that he will be injury prone all his career, in which case he would be a liability, as he was in the playoffs this year.
The ASG can still put together a very good ball club without going over the cap. They just have to be smart about their drafts and trades. We all know you ain’t gonna win a title on the cheap. Orlando, LA, Cleveland, Denver, Boston are all paying through their noses for their success. But if LeBron is going to dominate the NBA for the next 2-5 years, then the best Hawks can hope for anyway is to put together a ball club that has the ability to advance deep into the East playoffs. By deep I mean a team that winning a 2nd round matchup is a given, a team folks actually expect to contend for the East crown.
So I think you keep the core that has gotten you so far, jettison the floatsam and debris, and improve your team.
The funny thing is, if the Hawks ever come out tops in the East, I can see them contending for a title because they’ve played teams like Lakers and Denver very well. Spurs are aging and injury prone, Houston two biggest stars cannot play a full season of basketball, Portland is still young though talented, Utah is up and down. Hawks biggest threats are in the conference they play in with powerhouses like Cavs, Celts, Magic, and possible re-emergence of Miami, Philly, even Detroit and Chicago, which is why I know the East will retain the trophy this year.
Go Hawks Go!
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
8:59 pm
I think David Andersen is a guy you get if you lose Zaza to free agency. His offensive skills are better, but I doubt he’ll be an upgrade on defense, or in rebounding. In fact, he may not be as committed a rebounder as Zaza is.
So, that does not solve the issue of a rotational big who can man the pivot.
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
9:16 pm
Ray, you don’t have to address size issues with the starting line-up. We just need to add 1-2 bigs capable of playing 24+ minutes when called upon.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
9:18 pm
Blast,
” So I think you keep the core that has gotten you so far, jettison the floatsam and debris, and improve your team.”
Okay. So who exactly makes up that core that you are so unwilling to part with for any reason? Who are you counting as flotsam and debris? You’re right that Sund has to be smart about trades and free agents, especially to keep from going over the cap.
The cap will be lower this year, than it was last. Count on it. Last year we committed to $15 million for ONE pg, bringing our payroll to $67 million. I’m sure if we keep Bibby, we’ll be paying him less than that, but how much less is the question. With a lowered payroll, you’re still expecting to “improve the team.” I’d like to as well, but how to do this when we’re expected to have a lower payroll? We can talk about saving money on a new Bibby contract, but the payroll remains close to the same (and likely over the cap) if you pay what it takes to get guys worth having. That will make up for what Bibby is no longer making, leaving the payroll sky high.
I don’t know about you, but I’m expecting the lower payroll to be the only certain thing. I think this is how we ended up with the bench we have NOW, don’t you?
I’m saying all of this to illustrate just how possible, and possibly necessary it may be to trade one or two of the guys that is part of the regular playing rotation, in order to get better.
Of course, I could be wrong, and Sund could prove to be a genius, moving all of the guys that Woody doesn’t use, and getting great bench players that allow us to play 9 or 10 deep on the regular, all for bargain basement prices.
If he is, then we can all re-celebrate the acquisition of Sund, and how much better than Billy he is. Heh, heh, heh.
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
9:21 pm
Astro Joe,
I can go for that. The tricky part is getting guys that not only are effective, but that Woody will play. While we’re complaining about the extreme trade proposals (and we’ve probably not even met our quota of those yet), I’m interested in hearing what the wiser/cooler heads have in mind. Haven’t heard a peep yet…
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
9:24 pm
I already submitted my ideas. RandMo for Superman and Acie for CP3. WTF, Ray, you aren’t paying attention?
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
9:29 pm
Astro Joe,
LOL! I agree, man. I couldn’t help but laugh at the description of Stromile Swift. All too accurate. Maybe we can find a mad scientist who has figured out how to synthesize a solution of Organic Quick Gro and Motivation Mojo. I’d give a large dose by way of injection to RandMo. I’d give Josh a smaller dose, mixed with another wonder drug called FocusNConcentr8.
What do you think?
In the meantime, I’m mulling over the kind of bigs we can get that will meet our needs, and make Woody comfortable with running a deeper rotation. Of course, they DO have to be affordable. Dadgummit, why is everything got to be about money? Oh yeah. I forgot. It’s a business. Hee hee
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
9:30 pm
Joe, I TOLD you I liked them, didn’t I? I’m with ya man, I’m WITH ya!!!
Big Ray
May 15th, 2009
9:34 pm
Pass the pipe and Praise the Lord!
Joe, you’ll have to pardon my sarcasm (come now, you’re no stranger to that, it’s fun and you know it), but you have to admit. There have been more crazy trade proposals, and complaints about the crazy trade proposals than there have been “good” ideas about how to improve the team without going over the cap, losing valuable assets, etc.
The Truth of the matter, as you know all too well, is that none of us really know what to do. We’re just having fun speculating it to death and shooting each other’s ideas out of the air. Really not much more to it than that. But we have to make it through the offseason somehow…I haven’t been paying much attention to baseball in general (I’m being a rogue Braves fan right now), and the Falcons are nowhere near getting started.
Hey! Have the Curling playoffs started yet?
Blast
May 15th, 2009
9:49 pm
Ray.
I feel Hawks needs are pretty obvious, and guess you didn’t read my earlier post about the core. The debris are the RandMo’s, Hunter, Mario et al. Solo even. Speedy for sure. Yeah they might come cheap, except for Speedy but don’t tell me you can’t get players for the same money that who would put up better effort?
Remember it’s a bad economy out there. Last year Flip was off to Moscow before Hawks called him with a 1.5 mil offer. Things aren’t that better right now. If the cap is lower, then guys would have to take paycuts. Just like I have done the last three years. Just like Bibby will do no matter where he ends up at.
Hawks are 2-3 decent plug ins away from respectability. A good center, so Al and Zaza can be back ups, a good point guard of the future, and either another shooting guard or small forward if Marvin and Evans can’t cut it.
Wipe out all the debris as I said, I don’t think it’s undoable. Truth is Hawks don’t have to carry 15 players on their roster. Staff your club with quality guys that have specific roles under the leagues minimum, and your club will thrive. Guys like Wade, LeBron and Kobe comes around once every 5-10 years. In lieu of those, do what Chauncey and Detroit did to win championships.
Of course, no point in debating all this until we at least know where salaries are gonna be capped at.
Blast
May 15th, 2009
9:55 pm
Ray, you said it yourself. The main reason we ended up with the bench we have is because Sund waited too long, not just about money. If it was about money, ownership wouldn’t be fighting in court right now due to Joe’s contract. If it was about money, they would not have paid Bibby all that money just to get his service for a year and a half. I thing the ASG will spend money, within reason.
Egins26Ali
May 15th, 2009
10:03 pm
I love tonight’s blogs better than last night. It seems to be more serious and makes more since. I like the idea of going for Ryan Hollins at the 5. We all seem to be in agreement about the Hawks needs. However the debate remains as to JSmoove’s ability to play the 3. I believe he can. His form is not bad on his jumper, its just not consistent. Its like his free throw shooting this season. It suffered because of lack of confidence and discipline. He got better in the playoffs because he focused. With Mark Price and the maturity that he has gained from another year I am sure that he will work hard this off season and it will improve. He needs to concentrate more on consistency from 15 to 20 feet and the 3’s will take care of itself.
The Hawks frontline was exposed in the playoffs. As has been stated over and over we are just to small on our frontline and don’t have enough depth to make a real run at a Championship. I truly feel that Marvin coming off the bench will provide more punch from him offensively and prevent him from being so injury prone. Wealso need to consider a Theo Ratliff or Drew Gooden coming off the bench. That would solidfy our bench with a few veterans for balance. AC, Flip, Mo(Maybe), ZaZa, Marvin, Theo or Drew and Mario.
Starting 5- Bibby, JJ, JSmooove, BigAl & Hollins, Joel P, Tyson Chandler, Biedrens.
Woody has to allow AC time. He can penetrate and break down a defense. His confidence in his jumper will come.(Rondo doesn’t have a jumper) AC could be cultivated by Bibby, but most importantly you have a best of both worlds at the pg position. A drop dead shooter and a penetrating pg that is cost effective.
Jody
May 15th, 2009
10:07 pm
If the hawks had to play Josh at the SF position, I don’t think it would have to be a total disaster. Actually, it you put him in the post against other small forwards, teams would’nt be able to stop him and it actually might encourage Josh to play more around the basket because of the advantage he would have. Kinda similar to what the Pistons did in the finals against the Lakers. They’d played Corliss Williamson at the 3 and dared the Lakers to double him and when they did, the Pistons got open looks.
cp
May 15th, 2009
10:14 pm
I need to check the free agent list. It’s 3 bigs out there that could help. Jeff Foster, Nesterovic (spelling), and Brandon Bass. Bass is probably more of a pf than a center but I think he would be fine in the backup role… I think either one of those 3 could help our bench. I prefer Foster because he is a great rebounder and we could really use some rebounding. Bass is strong and can finish around the hoop. They would all be cheap too. Like ray said, Sund has to get off to an early start and not wait so long if he wants to find better bench players this year. Woody would also play them because they are vets. I would lie to bring Hunter back. The kid showed some potential we just need someone to help develop the kid. Mario is a nice story and all but I would prefer a guard who has some type of offense to go with their defense. Morris needs to be included in some type of package I just don’t think the kid has it. I also like Gardner but once again we don’t have a coach who develops players all to well.
Astro Joe
May 15th, 2009
10:20 pm
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/freeagents/2009byposition.jsp
Ray, CHEAP and available bigs I would consider (from the above highly informative website) include Jason Collins (don’t laugh, he is an excellent team defender, always is at the right place at the right time & usually among the top players at drawing offensive fouls), Robert Swift (okay, so maybe I’m just guessing that the GM who drated him a few years ago will try to re-acquire him), Steven Hunter (recovering from an injury and mad that Denver isn’t showing him love this post-season after working hard thru rehab), Jamal Magloire (for 10 minutes a game and a cheap salary, why not?), Malik Rose (former rebounding machne who should have fresh legs after being in the NYC doghouse for a few years), Adonal Foyle (I think he’s better than Magloire and cut from the same cloth) and Malick Allen (nice perimeter game and is willing to mix it up down low). Obviously, those are the 9-12 type of big men, no one who is going to play 35 minutes a game. The other thing is that I tried to stay away from RFAs, prying those guys loose is very difficult (and tmely).
Some mock drafts suggest that BJ Mullins and Dajuan Blair may still be on the board when the Hawks draft. If Blair is available, Sund needs to sprint the draft card to Stern. Blair will make an immediate impact in his rookie season and can easily average 14 boards per 40 minutes. (I think once he starts his pre-draft workouts, teams will be all of him and he’ll go top 15).
Lastly, if we could find a way to bring back Childress, we would be adding a very effective rebounder to our bench. Unfortunately, he won’t fall under the “cheap” category.
O'brien
May 15th, 2009
10:54 pm
Free agents might be willing to sign quickly rather than wait and see, so Sund needs to act quick.
Jack made $2 mil this past season. Maybe he will take $4 mil. Will the Pacers match, since they owe TJ Ford $8 mil, Deiner $1.6 mil (player option) and Tinsley $6.8 mil.
Sessions made $722K, but Milwaukee is also paying Redd $15.8 mil, Jefferson gets $13.2 mil, Ridnour gets $6.5 mil, and they might still owe Damon Jones $4.5 mil, and Bogut $6.3 mil. Would they want to give Sessions $4-$5 mil? I think we could get 2 PG’s for the price of Bibby, because I can see Bibby wanting $8 million. PG’s who play defense, PG’s who are younger.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 15th, 2009
11:52 pm
I like some of these cheap big men being talked about. Nice to see realistic options being discussed. Please listen to Astro Joe, people… you’re not going to get big time players in trades by giving them our scrubs in return. Isiah Thomas doesn’t work in the league anymore.
niremetal
May 16th, 2009
12:17 am
Astro Joe,
I like Blair’s game, but does getting a 6′7 power forward really answer any of our problems? He would be an upgrade for our backup PF spot, but is that really what you want to do with the #19 pick?
ant banks
May 16th, 2009
12:19 am
b
niremetal
May 16th, 2009
12:25 am
Najeh/Astro Joe/Ray/etc,
Agreed on nixing the unrealistic trade proposals. This time of year always seems to bring a strange mix of proposals that the other team would never go for (Bibby and a draft pick for Monte Ellis?), others make no sense for us (Marvin for Ryan Hollins??), and some make no sense for either team (JJ and Marvin for Artest and T-Mac???). As Najeh said, stuff like that shouldn’t happen now that Isiah is gone…
Big Ray
May 16th, 2009
7:50 am
Blast,
Get a center so Al can be a back-up? Get a small forward and shooting guard in case Marvin and Mo can’t cut it?
Dude, you lost me RIGHT THERE….
Astro Joe
May 16th, 2009
9:07 am
niremetal, yeah, I think having a rebounding machine would do wonders for this team. I think Blair would add many possessions for our team, even coming off the bench. I’ve been asking for a ‘tweener for several months. Those short PF-types like Maxiell, Bass, Powe and Davis. Blair may not have the offensive skills of those guys but he will likely be a better board man. He would have uprooted Z and would have forced Varejao to take a long path around his wide body to the basket. Yeah, sign me up at #19.
Sautee
May 16th, 2009
10:23 am
MannyT had the best “magic beans trade description”: Judas for Jesus straight up.
LMFAO
Nire, he’s MY hero too.
O'brien
May 16th, 2009
11:40 am
I think Blair could be another Reggie Evans type. Not much of an offensive threat, but a good rebounder.
The Hawks have plenty of options (in my opinion), so there will be no excuse this offseason. We already have a GM in place, and our coach is under contract. Let’s go sign some people.
jhan
May 16th, 2009
12:59 pm
Ray, this is tricky for me to figure out. Josh’s game RIGHT NOW is best suited for PF. If he can learn to dribble, shoot from 12′-20′ & defend the perimeter this offseason then I say play him at SF. Seems like a lot to learn in a couple of months.
The best long term solution for the HAWKS is for Josh to learn SF skills & play there for the next 5 years.
I’ve been laughed at before for saying this but I believe Josh, Al & Marvin are all best suited to play PF. Al is undersized to play Center. Marvin is too uncoordinated & ineffective with the dribble to be an elite SF.
I guess I should change my earlier post to read “pick the one you like best” then trade the other two. If not one of them will need to move to the bench.
Not an easy decision for Sund this year. He will be earning his money!
I MUS.WRITE
May 16th, 2009
1:29 pm
Blair is not the answer for us. At 6′7 with limited jumping ability its gonna be hard for him to get his shot off in the post-see. Sheldon Williams.
Jeezuz christ people….Adonolye Foyle,Robert Swift,Malik Allen- these guys are cheap for a reason …They Suck …
Javeel Mcgee is who I would like to bring in……. Maybe they will bit on a 1st/Mo Evans, they need depth at SF -as Butler is often hurt.
I MUS.WRITE
May 16th, 2009
1:35 pm
For those of you who feel we cant get a quality big -Why the hell not…… Pau gasol and T Chandler were both let go for next to nothing…..Im sure if a team could get a good yung player and a first they would have to consider us atleast.
Jason Collins…. HAHAHAHAHA Im better than him right now …..No thanks Im startint to wonder if sum of yall even watch these players during the season, I would go with Solo over him MY GAWD
w8102chawks
May 16th, 2009
1:57 pm
Rev. Avery Johnson should be signed today, this young team team needs a proven leader, ask Don Nelson what he thinks of Averys’ coaching abilities over Mikes’, the thought is criminal.
O'brien
May 16th, 2009
3:24 pm
I was not impressed by Mo Evans, and I would be okay using him as part of a trade. There are a lot of backup SF available (eg Matt Barnes, Travis Outlaw, Trevor Ariza, Jarvis Hayes), plus we still have the rights to Chills.
I like the idea of trading our 19th pick, because who are we going to get at that position that will make an impact (and receive PT from Woody)? And the Hawks are already a very young team, and Woody plays Vets.
cp
May 16th, 2009
3:44 pm
O’brien I would take Ariza over Evans all day. He is a lot bigger and is a better finisher at the rim. He wont have the trouble guarding the big guards and small forwards as Evans did this past season. I would rather just sign Bass than draft Blair. I’m starting to think we might trade the 19th pick. This draft is guard heavy and we already know Woody does not like young guards. Knowing Sunds drafting history he might reach on the big center from Ohio State. I don’t like his game at all. He is a 7 footer who couldn’t grab 5 boards a game. We don’t need a soft 7 footer here.
Astro Joe
May 16th, 2009
5:24 pm
I.MUS, we were specifically discussing cheap bigs. The Wizards invested a pick and a year of training in Javale McGee, why would they want to trade him for Evans and the chance to start all over with another 1st round project? And trade him to a division opponent?
cp, a freshman center is going to need development. Everyone wants the finished product and not invest the time in development.
ILL-logical
May 16th, 2009
6:05 pm
Since it appears from the comments from the ajc columnists that woodson will be returning at least to complete his contract,as an alternative to repeating some of his past season’s mistakes,ie thinking tactically and not strategically, let’s focus on the replacements for the coaching staff whose contracts are all up and probably want to move on rather that continue to have their input ignored.
Who can the BASG hire to develop and run-without interference from you know who-an offense that uses the Hawk’s core players to their maximum potential and allows for in game adjustments to counteract the opponents shifts in strategy?
This person could also be considered as a potential head coach replacement should the need arise after the 2009-10 season.But most of all, the candidate should continue Woodson’s great efforts in keeping a young team focused on the team and not on their individual stats.
cp
May 16th, 2009
6:12 pm
Yea I understand that Astro. But from reading his scouting reports he was really disappointing. Plus I don’t know how much development he would get here. He might end up being a decent player but from everything Ive read everyone thought he would be a lot better. Ill copy and paste some weaknesses scouts saw in him. It could be accurate who knows.
WEAKNESSES:
- All-around offensive polish
- Turnover prone
- Ability to put ball on floor
- Advanced post moves
- Commitment to playing defense
- Defensive awareness
- Defensive fundamentals
- Man to man defense
- Off-ball defense
- Basketball IQ
- Doesn’t always play hard
- Experience
- Focus
- Likelihood of reaching potential
- Not ready to contribute immediately
- Questionable intangibles
- Work ethic
- Got by on instincts at college level
- Not productive enough
- Assist to turnover ratio
- Passing skills
- Average rebounder
- Free throw shooting
- Jump-shot
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
6:30 pm
1) Trade Morris and Bring back Solo. He’s a great team guy and rises to the occasion when called upon. I we ever get a REAL Big Man coach in here, Solo has the physical tools to be very good
2)Trade Acie Law to The Dallas Mavericks for Either one of their lottery picks or Gerald Green and cash. This works for Acie since he’s from Dallas. The Mavericks traded away their future and could Redeem themselves with this trade. The Dallas locals Love their Hometown Hero Acie and this is a great chance for him to start fresh. Meanwhile, the Hawks either get a proper Backup for Joe(Gerald Green, who is young…..he might be a free agent though…..i’ll check later) and Cash OR another Draft Pick.
3) OK so were not getting Blake or Hasheem…..every other big man is useless in this draft(Too short…we have enough of those, or just plain sorry). I’d Rather Have Solo than Hansbrough on our squad. So, I say we(IF Flip, Acie, and Bibby are gone……it CAN happen folks) need to drat some PG/SG/Combo Guards. If we trade Acie for a pick, that gives us three picks. Here’s how I would use them:
Trade Speedy, Randolph, and Cash to the Clippers for Chris Kaman. This Works for the Clippers because A)They get rid or Kaman and his big contract B)They get another seven footer back(Randolph) C) They suck so they might end up getting a top three pick and Draft Griffin or Thabeet anyway so that diminishes their need for Kaman even More. D) They drafted that seven footer from Texas A&M last year which, again lessens their need for Kaman.
Now, we have two picks left. IF Johnny Flynn is on the Board you take him. No questions asked. I’ve seen too much evidense that supports his awsomeness. He probably won’t be though. If not, you take Patrick Mills
Who BTW, is the Best/fastest PG in the draft and my personal favorite and he’s being severely overlooked right now, but Johnny’s got more hops and i’d hate for him to blow up somewhere and us have another Chris Paul debacle on our hands. So I Would play it safe and Pick Johnny if he’s there. Besides, there’s the Possibility of Mills being there in the second Round, though I doubt he’ll be available when the Hawks get to pick again.
Next is our final Pick which should be used to secure a Joe Johnson backup. My Candidates are Demar Derozan(We have absolutely NO CHANCE in picking him up) they’re already projecting him in the top 5….no less than top 10…..i’ve seen footage, they’re right on the money too.
Next, are the ones that are likely to be on the Board when we Pick: Wayne Ellington or Gerald Henderson. Henderson is WAY MORE EXPLOSIVE off the dribble than Ellingon. If Ellington is bumped on the way to the basket, he’s going to lay it up. That’s partly due to his suspect ball handling abilities, but they both are 6′5 and they both can catch lobs with ease. Their Vert is about the same, Hendersen just dunks better in traffic. They both have Ball handling problems actually(not very JJ like). Ellington is a WAY BETTER SHOOTER than Gerald Henderson though. It’s not even close, but if his shot isn’t falling, Ellington can’t really offer you much. This one is too clse to call for me either on would be nice so my pick is:
Chase Budinger: He’s got it all the shot, the handle, the ability to finish at the basket and in traffic. He’s big and long. Very athletic but probably doesn’t jump out of the gym like Ellington or Henderson. He is More likely to playsome SF too whick will allow Mo to defend/play the SG position full-time.
Then you re-up on Zaza, Solo, Marvin and try to geteither Bibby or Flip Back here(probably Bibby. Especially if Acie is shipped to Dallas… The combo guards Ellington, Henderson or Budinger combined with Evans can cover for Flips absence). That’s how I would handle this if i’m GM
You all better pray that the Clippers get a top 5 pick. If they do, they’re gonna hold a liquidation-style giveway on a number of thier big men.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
6:37 pm
Somewhere in there I lost a pick lol. We might have to include a pick in the Clipper trade to aquire Kaman(Preferably the one we get for trading Law to Dallas).
I.Mus- I’m still optimistic for Salim because I am a fan. That doesn’t mean I don’t see what you see. I see it. I know as well as anybody what his problem is, I just hope he can fix it and get his career on track because, like I said, i’m a fan of his.
And theres nothing fans love more that taunting and telling someone else to eat crow so, if it happens and he succeeds ou’ll hear me for sure lol. If not, then oh’ well.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
6:48 pm
Guys, Zaza is not gitting a ton of money from anybody lol. In this Economy? Especially when you consider the fact that no one has seen him play outsied of Atlanta the last five years because the national media are Haters.
Also, Blair? DeJuan Blair? Didn’t we just have this talk about McDyess? Sheesh! He’s another Sheldon Williams man. Can barely get of the floor man, Gawd you guys’ sigh.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
6:52 pm
All it takes is the MLE to nab Ariza. I doubt he will want to leave his birthplace/hometown/childhood memories of LA though. It will probably take a guarenteed starting job to pry him away…..wait, doesn’t he start for LA now? Even if he doesn’t, he’ll come off the bench for LA but his ego probably won’t allow him to accept that role in too many other places now though.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
6:57 pm
With Kaman, That Allows Horford and Zaza to both come off the bench. Talk about depth man. There’s now way you get into our paint unless you pay off wooson lol. We would have to set up a toll booth in front of the restricted area line on the court heh!
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
7:04 pm
With that being said(i’m referring to Ariza), If LA doesn’t do what Kobe wants, he will walk so it all depens on number 24.
We might be able to nab Odum though, but he’s too soft for LB23…..next. Ron Ron anybody? Nah…..it’s tough man. Sund better make us better or heads will roll.
I’m willing to protest if anyones with me. First we can riot in front of ASG HQ for them to draft correctly. Then we can riot on July 1st for free agents. We can have clyde set up a T-Shirt booth out front lol.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
7:13 pm
Danny Green is also a good Second Round Option.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
7:22 pm
I think Acie needs a fresh start. It’s clear when he’s on the court that woodson has gotten to his game. A players coash like Carlisle who will allow him to grow and make mistakes is just what he needs. Having his family there to support him as well will do wonders for his confidence. Beside, he always plays really agressive in dallas for the fans there.
I don’t know about Johnny Flynn, But Patrick Mills has played for many different coaches. He will handle woodson’s personality better than Acie did. I also don’t see him folding unders woodys demans to the point where it changes his game(I.E the timidness diplayed by Acie at times). I can’t see Woody overlooking his international credintils either. He really mad CP3 and Dwill look like they were stuck in mud…..I was shocked.
But, like I said, Flynn can dunk on you lol. Whoever is left on the board get’s nabbed IMO….by us of course.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
7:26 pm
Mills is from Austrailia man, so to come over here and handle all of that, you have to be strong mentally. Woody should be a walk in the park for him.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
7:44 pm
For the record, I don’t like Eric Maynor. I’ve seen tape. I don’t think he will succed. He doesn’t have a great first step and he isn’t very athletic for someon ho continually tries to finish in the paint……not even a floater….just luck. That’s the impression I get when I see him play. I also don’t like his shot or handle….but thats just my opinion.
If Bibby stays(We need to bring him Back BTW…more on that later) we need a yin to his yang. Someone who can defend, of phsycal and is fast on offense and defense. A penetrate first type of guard.
Flynn does both evenly at times but is more of a penetrator. Mills….you couldn’t stop him if you tried. he’ll get in the paint whever he wants. He’s Tony Parker with a jumpshot.
On Bibby: I’v been watching som highlights and have had some cool-down time from the season
1) How many Starting HAwks guards have THAT MANY MIXES ON YOUTUBE? The dude is an icon, and for good reason. Do you remeber how we looked befor he got there. It was either get to the paint and get a layup or we’re doomed. The opposition shut down the paint, doubled on JJ and it was Goodnight Hawks.
Bibby made the offense flow so smoothly. We need that guy. He’s a shooting threat and he’s always locked and loaded. Without him wer take a step back. If HE leaves, than WE MUST keep Acie for size/strength and defense alone. Then draft either Flynn or Mills.
If Acie and Bibby both Leave then we have to hold on to Flip. The Chances of us Getting both Flynn AND Mills in the draft is pretty low.
Jeff Teauge needs to stay in college. Right now he’s a 6′2 Point Guard who doesn’t know how to play the position.
Ken Strickland
May 16th, 2009
7:48 pm
There is one other issue that must be determined before deciding what to do about our PG situation. HC MWoodson has a yr remaining on his 2yr contract extension, and it would be foolish to cater to his preference for a PG until we decide whether he deserves another contract extension.
If the SAASG decides to keep him, then Sund should turn this roster over and bring in players he’ll accept and best fits his limited OFF system and preferred style of play. This team, as constructed by former GM BKnight, can’t go any further with Woodson as the HC. Also, if he’s retained, ALaw and SJones should be traded because they’re never going to be allowed to be productive under Woodson. We can also forget drafting a PG considering Woodson’s documented disdane for young PG’s.
Bottomline, if we’re going to keep the basic roster in tact, Woodson should be fired. Young, talented, developing players like JSmith, MWilliams, ALaw, SJones, OHunter and AHorford need a HC that understands the importance of committing the time, effort and energy into developing young talent for the teams long range future. You want a HC that will be more of a mentor than an adversary.
If this franchise isn’t going to do that, they need to make Woodson more comfortable by bringing in all veteran players, which would help lessen his responsibility for developing players and strategy.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
7:51 pm
Also for the Record, I think Przbilla Sucks.
1)We already had him in 2002
2)He can’t shoot
3)he’s just a taller longer verion of Zaza……without all of the offensive fouls and Three second calls of course
4) Likesomeone saidon the blog earlier, Portland Won’t let him go. Oden is too injury prone to trust.
Hey, is Raef Lafrentz Healthy?
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
8:15 pm
…… BJ Mullins sucks too. No need to expllain, it’s all over the internet. OSU fans were NOT happy….
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
8:16 pm
Ken, I agree. We need a real coach. ASAP
ant banks
May 16th, 2009
8:17 pm
go hawks
Hoops
May 16th, 2009
8:28 pm
Everybody has a sure fire way to fix the Hawks. Well here is apossibility that will not be popular, but may be a good option for the Hawks to consider:
1. Resign Flip @ a reasonable price and use him as your backup point and backup 2 player.
2. Resign Bibby @ a reasonable price and move him to the 2 position.
3. Keep Joe and move him to the 3 position.
4. Keep Horford and move him to the 4 position.
5. Resign Zaza @ a reasonable price and use him as your backup 5.
6. Josh Childress is ready to come back. Bring him back.
7. Everybody else will be available to use in trades to improve the team.
I know most of you are saying we can’t trade Josh S. and Marvin. Well you have to give up something to get something. We need a starting point guard that is quicker than Bibby, but we need Bibby’s outside shot. So move Bibby to the 2 and use Marvin and whoever to get a quality point that can defend.
Josh S. is a great player that is too small to play the 4 position and does not shoot well enough outside to play the 3. He will not ever be able to consistently score outside unless he changes his shot. I don’t see that happening. Why not look and see if you can get a starting 5 for him? I feel that there are several teams with a quality 5 man that would be interested in getting Josh S.
This is what we could look like:
1-New point, Flip
2-Bibby, Childress
3-Joe J, Evans
4-Horford, Solo
5-New 5, Zaza
Now, who would be the 1 and the 5? We should be able to get quality players for Josh S. and Marvin! Depending on who you can get in a trade or draft, I think this team will score better, rebound better, and defend better. Now go ahead and shoot me down!!!
The Flash
May 16th, 2009
8:44 pm
No point in getting bosh if you keep Joe, and no way to get Bosh imo without a deal that includes Joe, maybe three-way even. Bosh and Al, with Songalia coming off the bench (I’d ditch the Z man)would be the core that I would go for. I am the same guy who was all over Roym not to mention Farmar and Big Baby, when everyone (but Doc) was hatin on them.
From a financial and talent point of view, if you get Bosh you need to get rid of Joe. With Josh and Al, you have a potent offense/defense/rebounding/passing/transition-playing front court no matter whom you team them with. Thre are several ones that I see in this draft that should be available when the Hawks pick who I see as having big upsides.
If this team got Bosh and let Joe go, I could see MW getting some time at the 4, and might consider one of the marquette guards or Henderson from Duke, maybe even Ellington from Carolina to be groomed for Joe’s place. I much rather be getting the bulk of my points at the rim through Bosh and Al then through Joe and whomever. The former will create the type of inside-out play in the half court that is essential to play championship basketball.
It would, I agree be insane to give up Joe, except in exchange for an inside game, and that to me means Bosh.
LAC
May 16th, 2009
9:06 pm
Movethis nothing boring association team to Billings,Montana….nba basketball… I’d rather watch grass grow !
hawksfan
May 16th, 2009
10:01 pm
Everyone wants the finished product and not invest the time in development.
SOUNDS LIKE COACH WOODSON
O'brien
May 16th, 2009
10:17 pm
Ariose, Kaman is a decent center (when healthy), but I dont see Woody and Sund moving Horford to the bench. I can’t remember which one of our bloggers said it, but I am starting to see their point that if the Hawks have Marvin, Josh and Horford all starting, we will be forever limited (how long do we wait on Josh to be more consistent, or for Horford to develop a consistent post up game). We may have to let one of them go.
Does it matter who we get as PG in the draft? If they make a couple silly mistakes in their first couple minutes, Woody will give them that look, and banish them to the bench. (I am a fan of Acie Law, and I hope he gets a chance somewhere).
I dont think Ariza will come here. But I think we can sign Matt Barnes (from Phoenix) or Jarvis Hayes. Combined with Mo Evans, we should be able to only play JJ 36 minutes per game.
kwooden1
May 16th, 2009
10:19 pm
Ariose, I like your suggestions and the way you think. I hope the Clippers are dumb and get rid of Kaman. I don’t think the ASG is going to want to part with cash, so I think you have to include Marvin and Speedy in a trade. As for Acie for Gerald Green, I like it accept for the fact that we have to draft another guard to replace Acie. Woody will put that newbie on the bench and leave him. We need a guy that Woody trusts with about 20mins a game! O’brien, adding what you said about Jack or Session with Ariose’s trade for Kaman would be a great summer for the HAWKS. This team would look great with Kaman starting, Flip and Jack/Sessions coming off the bench. Woody is staying and doesn’t do player development, we got to get some guys on the bench that have experience.
With those trades above it means that JSmoove is going to have to move to the 3 spot. Even with all that he’s shown at the 4, I believe he’s still a 3 and can improve his jumpshot and handles to do it. Woody has never let him play through his mistakes at the 3 and he’s been forced to play the 4.
Lineup
PG – Mike Bibby
SG – Joe Johnson
SF – Josh Smith
PF – Al Horford
C – Chris Kaman
PG – Sessions/Jack
SG – Flip
SF – Evans (I would trade Evans for Klieza)
PF – Draft Pick (Hansbrough)
C – Solo
GO HAWKS!!
PRESTONI
May 16th, 2009
10:24 pm
Enter your comments hereI’ve been a Long-Time Hawks Fan since their First Game as the St. Louis Hawks, so I have seen it all. To be honest this Current Hawk Team does not thrill me at all and leaves alot to be desired. The best word I can use to describe our Head Coach is COUNTERFEIT–Woodson really has no busy being a Head Coach.
To give him a Pass because he has won more games each season, is like giving Billy Knight a Pass because he Drafted some Players with some ability. The Reality is that the Bar was set Very Low for Woodson to show improvement and even a Five Year Old Kid with a Basketball Magazine could have Drafted equal or better Players than Billy Knight did. The decisions that Billy Knight made were Horrendous and keeping Mike Woodson as Head Coach would be a willingness to settle for Mediocrity and another Wasted Year. I think the Hawks are closer to being a Draft Lottery Team than to being a Top Ten Team. So taking a chance in making a Major Move or Getting a New Coach is really not a Major Risk. If Ownership is really serious about Winning, what do you really have to lose???
kwooden1
May 16th, 2009
10:31 pm
Ariose, I’m a Maryland U guy so I’ve seen a lot of Henderson, Wayne E and Tyler H. NC won this year because of Ty Lawson period! Ellington got all his looks because of Lawson and Hansbrough’s offensive rebounding. Henderson on the other hand, if he misses his first 2 jump shots he becomes a cry baby. Besides he hates contact! I think Hansbrough is a good pick for the HAWKS that late in the draft. Hansbrough is going to get a lot of his shots blocked in the NBA, but it doesn’t matter because he doesn’t care, he just keeps going. His energy along, will get him 5-6 rebounds game. The issues with the HAWKS is their slow/non-existent offensive, which he won’t be use to.
GO HAWKS!
Big Ray
May 16th, 2009
10:35 pm
I.MUS,
McGee is a young player with obvious talent. I don’t see Washington biting on that. Not with him being on a rookie contract and all. That’s one of the main differences between him and guys like Chandler. Chandler already has a contract at market value, is injury prone, and his team needs to offload the contract for financial relief. Washington is most likely in better shape than New Orleans.
As for us being able or unable to get good guys in the post (such as Chandler, when healthy), it’s not that we can’t. It’s that we don’t. This past year, we doled all our extra money out to Bibby…all of our “additions” came about as cheap as they could possibly be. We got one guy who was headed to Russia, another who got snubbed by the Warriors, one of the Bulls’ castoffs, a New York reject, and undrafted rookie, etc. Like I said, the issue isn’t necessarily about “can’t”…
Astro Joe,
I remember the last time we drafted a guy to do our rebounding for us…As for Blair, how many rebounds could he possibly get from the bench? I’m sure he could set a record for number of out-of-bounds balls caught….I’m just saying, he better be a hell of a player, or he won’t get past the incumbent bench warmers that have shown they know how to rebound already (but don’t play often, or very little when they do see the floor), in Solo and Hunter.
Good news, though: I’m sure he will beat out RandMo.
O’Brien,
I tend to feel that way, too. Why keep a draft pick when we’re already young, and we have young players that don’t play NOW? At the same time, we can’t go on trading draft picks forever, either…
The thing to do is make sure Woody is involved in the process, but don’t let him call all the shots. Coaches aren’t hired to evaluate talent, or they’d be working in the scouting department. They’re here to develop and guide the talent they are given. Now if you have a coach that employs a system that really works, and has proven that he can win with a variety of talents, then he should probably have more input/involvement than the average. But again, a guy’s ability to gain and maintain the respect of the players he is coaching, along with the ability to maximize their talent and get them to mesh on the court, is far more important and accurate in the job description of coach, than deciding who the team should take in the draft.
…so on the other hand, maybe we should think twice about throwing our draft picks away. Maybe. Depends on what we can use it or them to get.
Big Ray
May 16th, 2009
10:42 pm
O’brien,
I think we’re getting a lot of “which came first, the chicken or the egg?” situations with guys like Horford. It’s clear what a guy like Josh needs to do. He gets the ball often enough, as we’ve seen.
But Horford? Again, is it that his post skills aren’t nearly refined enough (i.e., it’s his fault), that we don’t get the ball to him for scoring? Or is it that we don’t get the ball to him enough for scoring, so he doesn’t get a chance to do much anyway? I mean, unlike Josh, Al doesn’t make very many bad decisions on the court.
How many times have we seen him go 3-4 or 5-8 from the floor enroute to 8-10 points in the first half, along with 6 or 7 rebounds? And then like clockwork, he gets maybe 3 shot attempts in the second half and finishes with 10 points and 14 rebounds. We ALWAYS go away from him when he’s doing well. Then we wonder why we don’t have a “solid post threat.” Heh. You know as well as I do, why.
Let’s not even get into him playing undersized at the position…
Big Ray
May 16th, 2009
10:44 pm
LAC,
“Movethis nothing boring association team to Billings,Montana….nba basketball… I’d rather watch grass grow !”
Yet, you show up on a basketball blog. Thank God for idiots. Otherwise, the rest of us wouldn’t know what smart was…
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
10:45 pm
kwooden1, Which is why eventually got around to chosing Chase Budinger lol. Hansbrough will be there in the second round. Al Horford is pretty much a Carbon Copy though. I think Al has a better Jumpshot though. We need length. I don’t beleive Hansbrough can rebound like that in the NBA. We got killed by varejeao and Ilgauskas, What can tyler do? they are both 7+ feet tall. No better than Josh or Horford could do.
I just don’t think getting another PF for the hell of it(We need a center) is the right answer when we have other needs that can be attended to. Specifically, finding a backup(Chase Budinger) that can give Joe 12-18 minutes of rest every night.
Besides, Solo is better and costs less. What I mean is, as far as the NBA is concerned, I beleive solo has more potentian and a higher ceiling than Hansbrough, and when given the oppoutunity, he has delivred.
Big Ray
May 16th, 2009
10:49 pm
Hoops,
Move Bibby to the 2, where defense will get even more difficult, and he will have trouble shooting over even taller/longer-armed players? Brilliant!
The Flash,
Long time no see. Very interesting and compelling argument. You will of course, be burned in effigy by three fourths of the blog for suggesting such heresy.
No one expects the blog inquisition!
Big Ray
May 16th, 2009
11:02 pm
Kwooden1,
Sund said early on that he thought player development was important, and that this was one of the things he would be evaluating as far as Woodson and his staff. I wonder precisely what standard he has set as far as that is concerned, and whether he will hold the coaching staff responsible for it.
Here’s the thing: improving player development doesn’t necessarily have to mean putting his thumb down on Woody all the time. It could very well mean adding (and maybe some subtracting, too) on his staff. If this isn’t a strong point for Woody (don’t laugh), then get someone in here who is better at it, and take the pressure off of the guy. No head coach “does it all” in this league. And the staff of assistants is there for a reason. And if some of them aren’t doing the job, then can ‘em. At the same time, Woody has to trust his staff to do their jobs, and not be a control freak. Whether or not this happens is anybody’s guess…
Ariose,
If Pryzbilla sucked, the Blazers would be looking to land a new guy. He doesn’t. We had him in 2002 and were stupid enough to cut him loose. We also had Rasheed, but I’m not going to go there. We even let Al Harrington walk, and the answer was “cap space!”….which we spent on Speedy. Heh.
Okay, fast forward to the Sund era…and NO, LaFrentz is not healthy. Come on, did you really have to ask that? That’s like asking is Ron Artest going to win the Sportsmanship of the Year award…
Big Ray
May 16th, 2009
11:05 pm
Ariose,
Chase Budinger? Backing up Joe Johnson? For 12-18 minutes a night? Man, you must be kidding! How do you expect Joe to get his 40 minutes a game like that? Are you crazy?! heh heh heh
No rookie is backing up Joe Johnson, bro’. You know this. Anybody backing up Joe better have a different name: first name veteran, last name guard.
ant banks
May 16th, 2009
11:14 pm
i liked the old blog format better. i have to type a bogas message to get to the MOST recent comments
ant banks
May 16th, 2009
11:16 pm
again
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
11:16 pm
The clippers will need speedy because B-Diddy is Injury prone and Eric Gordon is a shooting Guard….at least that’s where Dunleavy decided o play him last season. If the Clips wanna get stingy we can throw in one of the many rights to one of our players of drafts past(Chills/Anderson/Ankyol). Their not stupis but whts the point of having 6-8 Seven footers on your roster? Half of them getting paid big bucks too…
Ray, Flash has a sound arguement but I disagree, which is why I didn’t respond……it’s still crazy to trade JJ…..I could see if we weren’t 4th in the East and didn’t go to the second round or didn’t win 47 games…
What has Bosh done to be desrving of such a trade. He’s had like one winning season in the past five years. He’s had more weapons than us and still been unable to get the job done. In short, JJ has carried his team further, longer and better with less talent(until this year).
Also i’m tired of hearing people say “Someone has to go” WTF???? Seriously? What are ou talking about? We barely play seven guys on a given night and you want to ship someone out instead of letting Guys like Horford and Zaza(with their post games clearly not as effective as Josh’s) come off the bench, which would give us championchip caliber depth and give Horford a Chance to Develop his game more under-the Radar? What bench Big do you know of in this leauge that could match a Horford coming off the Bench? Last time I checked teams that had won chapionchips had campoinchip-caliber depth…..Just sayin’
Also, Josh CAN PLAY THE SF POSITION. PERIOD. What’s worng with overmating your opposition athletically on the defensive end and then demoralizing them buy pounding overmatched opposing SFG’s in the post with an array oof Acrobatic spinning hook shots and Crowd pleasing dunks? LeBron does it every night. Theres NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, but I guess some of you like rooting for an inflexible bottome-feeding team.
Some People in LA don’t Like Odum playing SF some don’t like him playing PF. At the end of the day all that matters is the W. I’m sure Lebron Won’t like seeing a healthy Marvin and Then Josh Smith on him as well….amd THE JJ on certain occasions. BTW how many SF/PF tweenrs did LA have at one point? Walton, Odum, Ariza, Radmonovic, Gasol……didn’t seem to bother them one bit…..nope.
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
11:25 pm
Oh come on now Ray. I gave Przzy a comlement too. I sad he was zaza without the three second calls lol.
We also had Terry, Stephen Jackson, and Gary Paton……I think I need to go throw up
Ray, you KNOW i’m all for signing Ben Gordon….but I was trying to be Budget-friendly…..a little. I can’t help it if I love the youngsters(Nobody better go there lol…..you sick Hawk fans hehehehe)
kwooden1
May 16th, 2009
11:27 pm
Big Ray, I would love to believe that Woody listens to anyone besides himself, but I don’t. We’ve seen know development in Woody’s tenure and I don’t expect any this summer. Bibby makes mistakes stays on the court, maybe Flip comes in. Flip makes mistakes back comes Bibby????? Acie makes a mistakes back to the bench!! Woody’s of the mindset to let his veterans play the game and bench players practice!! I think Woody would love to have J. Jack and Kaman/Pryzbilla.
Ariose, Pryzbilla was 12th in rebounding this season but did it in only 23.8 mins/per, that makes him one of the most efficient rebounders in the league. Stats are what Stats are, doesn’t me he will do it on the HAWKS. But, Sucks maybe??? what we need is rebounding. Anyways, looking at Portland again, I don’t think their going to part with him, Oden is to injury prone.
GO HAWKS!!
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
11:36 pm
I hear Calos Delfino is coming back stateside for next season……something about not getting paid his money over there in Russia Hehehehe, go figure.
Also his former Raptor teammate Antony parker is an Unrestricted Free Agent. He would defently give JJ 18 minutes of rest. Thoughts?
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
11:39 pm
kwooden1 and Ray, my bad. My opinion was soley base on his offensive game, Which is very important I beleive to the Hawks because we need some really solid inside scoring going forward. From a defensive and Rebounding standpoint the guy is awsome.
Big Ray
May 16th, 2009
11:42 pm
Ariose,
Since I can’t resist a good debate, how many winning seasons has Joe Johnson had since he left Phoenix? Precisely.
What I think Flash is saying is that Bosh brings what Joe brings: a top scorer for the team. He’s thinking conceptually. As he said, Bosh gives you just as many points (actually, more) closer to the rim. He gets the ball and faces a double team, he can pass it out to shooters. Shooters aren’t as hard to come by. Bosh gives you fiery, consistent play. He gives you 23 points, 10 boards, and 49% shooting. And you don’t have to run the ENTIRE offense through him.
Conversely, Joe gives 21 points, 5 boards, 6 assists per game. He’s older, and starting to show a bit of wear (or do you think that subpar playoff performance was because he just didn’t care). He has to pound the heck out of the ball, then pass somewhere else (rarely inside) when the inevitable double team comes.
Am I saying Bosh is better? Nope. I’m saying that Flash is suggesting that we change the focus of our offense from outside to inside. That’s all. And his argument is sound. But debatable. I’d truly rather have BOTH guys, and I think they could co-exist just fine (Don’t Pierce, Garnett, and Allen?).
As for Przzy and the rest of the guys…I just like to pick with ya every now and then…
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
11:50 pm
“Okay, fast forward to the Sund era…and NO, LaFrentz is not healthy. Come on, did you really have to ask that? That’s like asking is Ron Artest going to win the Sportsmanship of the Year award…”
As far as the draft goes. If i’m Sund, I want guys like budinger to be AT LEAST the 12-15th men on our roster because JJ is 27. IF Bibby comes back, he’s 30. We need talented insurance policies because Woody’s heralded vets have tons of mileage. And Woody probably won’t be here after next year…
Coutney Lee, George Hill, Aaron Brooks, Rodney Stuckey….thats all i’m Sayin’
LMFAO!
Ariose
May 16th, 2009
11:58 pm
I was laughing at your quote ray, I don’t know how my abbreviations got down there at the bottom heh.
I see where flash is coming from. I just meant tha if we swap them, we are still in the same position we’re currently in. Good but not great. Only one star player and STILL no center.
As far as them playing together. HELL Yeah, I’m pretty sure I ranted about that a few moths back too.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
12:15 am
Ariose,
Actually, I don’t quite agree that Bosh has had better weapons in Toronto than we have. He’s had Calderon and Ford, Bargnani’s a keeper. But J. O’Neal let them down (can’t stay healthy OR motivated), and Shawn Marion got there late. Who else on their roster is worth a mention, even?
And I’ll also say this about Bosh: he came up big in the playoffs both years that Toronto made it with him there. 17.5 ppg, 9 rpg, and 2.5 apg in ‘06-’07. 24 ppg, 9 rpg, and 3.6 apg in ‘07-’08. That second one was with playing 40 mpg, shooting 47% from the field, and 83% from the line.
Joe had 20 points 4 boards, and 4 assists per game in last year’s playoffs. This year’s playoffs, he wasn’t even the top player on this team. Just sayin’.
Bosh is no joke. I’d love to have him here in addition to Joe. But it’s hard to argue against The Flash when he’s talking about changing the star power from one area on the court to another. Especially since Joe is not the leader that so many want. Taken in that context, his argument makes plenty of sense. And I hear what he’s saying about it having to be one or the other. Tough call.
I’m sure Niremetal will weigh in on this, and I’m doubly sure which direction he’s going to rush…I mean lean…
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
12:18 am
“And Woody probably won’t be here after next year…”
Okay, now that literally changes EVERYTHING. I was clearly thinking along the lines of Woody being here for the long haul. Of course, that isn’t what I’m throwing into the wishing well. I’ve made no secret that I don’t love the guy, and to do so would be to outright lie. Guess I’ll settle for “hater” rather than “liar” if I’m to be called names, lol…
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
12:20 am
“kwooden1 and Ray, my bad. My opinion was soley base on his offensive game, Which is very important I beleive to the Hawks because we need some really solid inside scoring going forward. From a defensive and Rebounding standpoint the guy is awsome.”
Okay, you lost me for a second. Who we talking about? And don’t apologize, your opinion is as good as mine…you know that..
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
12:23 am
Oh, Pryzbilla. Sorry, slowing down over here…
Yeah, he’s no offensive juggernaut, that’s true. But bringing a guy like him in allows us to move Horford to the 4, where I believe he can upgrade his offensive output and capability. That, and we would still be using the SG, SF, and probably the PG spot for offense. A rugged center could get his points off of dump passes (for dunks and layups) and putbacks.
Part of the problem with Horford is that’s about ALL we’re using him for, since he’s our most rugged guy down low. Zaza being the only other one.
Ariose
May 17th, 2009
12:23 am
OK,OK Revised Edition:
1st string 2nd string 3rd string 4th string
Bibby Flip Acie
Joe Delfino Mo Evans Ellington/Hnderson/Hansbrough/Danny
Marvin Anthony Parker Budinger
Josh Horford Solo
Kaman Zaza
That should make everyone happy lol. Parker and Delfino won’t cost much and they’re vets. I STILL say it would be unwise to pass up the strongest PG crop since 2005 but Woody his here…..
I’ll say this, if Sund drafts another PG, it means Woody is out the door after this season. Like Ken Stricland(propane) said,woody nad young players just don’t mix.
Ariose
May 17th, 2009
12:59 am
Ray,
Yeah Bosh has really been dealt a bad hand or somethin’. He plays with so much heart, it sucks to see that team struggle like that. Bosh has become that vocal leader up there in toronto, that’s exatly what we need. But giving up Joe…..it’s just tough. But I think there are way more elite PF’s than there are elite SG’s. Even though Bosh has shown up in the playoffs BIG TIME. His 40pt explosion against D Howard last year was a classic. That’s one scenario i’d be happy to NOT be in the GM chair for.
On Woody, If i’m Sund I’d HATE shaping my roster for that idio-erm I mean that guy. Talent is talent im sick of hearing his dribble about veteran leadership. Where the hell were the vets whil Mr. YOUNG and TALENTED was giving us the SMACKDOWN in the second Round? I semm to remeber the Young buck J-Smooove being the only plaer to show up in game 4. He’s no vet….is he? Fire this clown Peeease ASG!!! Grow A PAIR? Oh wait. They can’t hear me. They’re too busy using the teams money to sue each other in court. At least the Maloofs throw house warming paries at their casinos and all of the kings were invited….
I’m all for getting Horford to his natural position. I know, he’ll thrive there. I agree that just even having a defensive rebounding Seven Footer like pryzbilla greatly increases our easy buckets in the paint.
Now Ray these “Dump Passes” you were speaking of. Woody’s not drawing up the play for this is he? Cause’ if he is, we’re scrwed lol. There is absolutely NO factual evidence that suggests he WON’T screw this simple play up Hehehehehehe…..
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
2:51 am
Ariose,
Too much truth and humor in that last one!
Sautee
May 17th, 2009
10:20 am
Ariose, you confuse me. You say that Horford will THRIVE at the 4 but you list him as second string?
LOL, I guess Acie’s THRIVING on the bench!
Melvin
May 17th, 2009
10:21 am
Hoopshype reports that the Nets are looking to move Yi and the Hawks are looking to move Marvin. Sounds like a good swap to me. Yi a 7ft SF that can shoot from deep and guard the 4/5 spots on defense. Lets get it done Sund..
Melvin
May 17th, 2009
10:28 am
Ok even though I would do the Marvin for Yi trade, that may not be realistic as I read the article again. What about we trade Marvin and get no player in return (Yikes)….
“There have been rumors of Williams being dangled in a sign-and-trade for cash. Don’t be surprised if talented yet unused guard Acie Law, the 11th overall pick in the 2007 draft, is moved, too.” – Hoopshype
Ken Strickland
May 17th, 2009
11:00 am
If Woodson is retained, I’d like to see us go after JChildress first. Then, we go after a veteran PG that plays DEF and shoots with range and accuracy, Like the Bulls KHeinrick. Next, we go after C Mike Moore of the Celtics. I think he’ll be available becuse he’s very disappointed with the limited mins he’s gotten with the injury to KG, especially in the playoffs. We resign Flip Murray and Zaza, if possible, and part ways with Bibby, ALaw and SJones, especially Law and Jones since we all know they’ll just get ignored anyway. We then draft the best forward or center available.
Our starting lineup would be the same as last yrs, with the exception of Heinrick replacing Bibby. Our bench would be C-ZPachulia & MMoore, SF-JChildress & MEvans, SF-OHunter, PG-FA signee, SG-MWest. I don’t think Heinrick will be the clutch shooter Bibby is, but he’d more than make for that with his superior DEF. MMoore would be a vet BIG that Woodson wouldn’t have issues with. With Flip, Zaza, Childress, Evans and Moore on the bench, I think Woodsons trust issues would be elimitated and his rotation expanded. TOO ME, THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO GET THE VETERAN PLAYERS WOODSON PREFERS WITHOUT BREAKING UP OUR CORE OF YOUNG TALENT.
jhan
May 17th, 2009
11:37 am
Ariose – please don’t talk about Josh bringing what Lebron does to the SF position. Do you really want Josh with the ball in his hands 60%-70% of the time?
I prefer the guards handling the ball on this team. I agree with playing Josh in the paint. Where will our C & PF play? Do you want Horford taking shots from the perimeter?
doc
May 17th, 2009
11:42 am
uh excuse me, who is yi?
Melvin
May 17th, 2009
12:18 pm
Doc,
His name is Yi Jianlian. The 7ft guy from China that you wanted to draft over Horford 2 yrs ago….heh,heh
terrell barron
May 17th, 2009
12:19 pm
Ken, there’s not too many free agent backup pg’s out there. Here’s a few: Kevin Ollie, T-Lue, R.Ivey, and Brevin Knight. YIKES! I’d like to go after a guy like Ronnie Price. He might want out of Utah and he’s unrestricted. He could possibly start here.
terrell barron
May 17th, 2009
12:21 pm
And Ken, I like Hinrich, but how much will the ASG be willing to spend. That’s why I mentioned Price. He’ll be a lot cheaper. And he can ball.
Melvin
May 17th, 2009
12:29 pm
If we trade Acie and Speedy, we could invest that money in Hinrich…
ant banks
May 17th, 2009
12:38 pm
w
Melvin
May 17th, 2009
12:48 pm
Did Joe Dumars got played or what. First it was the Darko draft debacle then it was the disaster experiment with Iverson the trade. Just think, he could have had Melo and Billups in a Pistons uniform…
“The Nuggets needed to go find a legitimate starting point guard.
Within hours, the Pacers agreed to ship Tinsley, a draft pick and cash to Denver in return for veterans Chucky Atkins and Steven Hunter.
Rather than pull the trigger, however, the Nuggets instructed Warkentien to make a fresh call to Detroit, in hopes the possibility of a trade with Indiana might entice Dumars, long a fan of A.I.’s tenacity, to bite on an even bigger deal.
It seemed to be a long shot, a gamble based on a bluff.
Shortly after noon on Oct. 30, however, Warkentien informed his stunned co-workers: Detroit seemed anxious to say yes. Iverson for Billups.
Nuggets officials rode the elevator to Kroenke’s penthouse suite in the Pepsi Center for negotiations of the highest tension level and hammered out a way to make the deal meet league salary-cap requirements and fit the team budget.”
Ken Strickland
May 17th, 2009
12:51 pm
TERRELL BARRON-FA isn’t our only option in getting a vet PG. We can trade for one. We have Speedy’s contract and I believe Acie is a RFA, so we can do a sign and trade with him. I know he won’t be cheap, but losing the contracts of Bibby and Speedy will more than cover his salary.
Ariose
May 17th, 2009
1:26 pm
Sautee-Minuters are minutes, and acie gets none. Thats the difference. Horford got minutes even when he was a rookie and came off of the bench. What does coming off of the bench have to do with being productive. I guess Jason Terry and Manu Ginobili asren’t “Thriving” in their reserve roles? As long as he’s positioned at the PF position I beleive he will be more effective on offense and defense. Coming off the the bench or starting has nothing to to woth the amount of minutes you are given by a coach, nor does it have any impact on weather or not you FINISH the game. For example Childress geting all of the IMPORTANT crunch-time minutes ahead of Starting SF Marvin Williams.
Jhan- I was specifically referring Josh’s ability to, like Lebron Demoralize his lesser SF opponets with his relentless abuse of the rim in the painted area. I was not referring to the amount of time Josh is allowed to dribble the ball. Nor was I suggesting that our offense should be run through Josh 60-70% of the time…..We wouldn’t win that way, and I don’t beleive cleveland on 66 games that way this year either. Their new scheme promoted a lot more ball movement, spacing, and open looks for his teammates, and Mo had the rock just as much as Lebron for the most part this season.
O'brien
May 17th, 2009
1:35 pm
I would rather Kirk Heinrich for $8 million instead of Bibby for $8 million. I would rather Jack ($4 mil) and Sessions ($4 mil) for $8 mil compared to Bibby $8 mil. (Remember, Jack made $2 mil last year, and Sessions made $800k, so I think $4 mil each may be reasonable.
Speaking of JJ, Jeff Schultz had an article which he said JJ had as many shots as Al and Josh combined. I think that has to change for us to be successful. Our front court has to have more shots.
Ariose, Championship teams do have championship depth, but they usually have championship payroll as well. And I dont think the Hawks are willing to spend the money needed. If Horford comes off the bench, then Flip will have to share the ball more too. Our team is too dependent on the backcourt.
篮球迷
May 17th, 2009
3:15 pm
I really wish we would have traded up for Yi in the first place! Maybe I’m biased since I was living in China at the time, but at least we’d see more Chinese fans at games (there were ALOT there during Round 1 this year!)
让我们去老鹰!! (Let’s Go Hawks!!)
terrell barron
May 17th, 2009
3:17 pm
Ken , we dont have anything to trade. We wont get much for Acie or Marvin. Now if we trade JJ,Smith, or Horford, we could land a legit pg and a big body. But I doubt we’d be willing to part ways with one of those guys. How bout Marvin, Acie, and Speedy’s contract, for Blake and Prizbillia?
terrell barron
May 17th, 2009
3:19 pm
I meant Marvin, Acie, Speedy’s contract, and a throw in for Blake and Priz.
ILL-logical
May 17th, 2009
3:43 pm
So what the rumors of Marvin being dangled are suggesting is that if Woodson sees you as being injury prone then he can’t trust you and if he doesn’t trust you then ,see ya, wouldn’t want to be ya. Interesting;any comments on that Mr. Claxton?
cp
May 17th, 2009
4:19 pm
We are dangling Marvin for cash? Just how broke are these clowns. The owners, front office, and coaching make it hard to be a fan of this team.
mykhalc
May 17th, 2009
4:36 pm
DOC, too funny!!! who is YI…for $500 pls. who was DOC’s draft pick in 2008 for the ATL HAWKS!!!?? classic!!LOL
MannyT
May 17th, 2009
6:14 pm
Once we know something about draft order, it may help identify players that are easier to get. For example, the team most likely to get Thabeet may be willing to get rid of their center.
doc & myk…too funny. Alex, I’d like deja vu for $400 The answer is FIRE WOODY. Who is Clyde? Let’s keep it going for $600 please. The answer is Woody is brainless, clueless, useless, period. Alex, who is mykhalc? …you get the idea.
ant banks – use your refresh button on your browser and you will see the latest comments. If you are in the middle of a post, cut it over to notepad before you refresh.
now you know
BWAF
doc
May 17th, 2009
6:21 pm
oh yeah, do you remember how much a i wanted roy as a way to make you forget that one? heh heh
still the argument for yi is valid or his type of player. iggy looked pretty good either dragging hofrord out of the box or shooting over bibby. if our coach wanted to do so he cold make that type of thing matter for the hawks, too.
doc
May 17th, 2009
6:30 pm
myk, i didnt know you were keeping score. i wrote that and left it on the computer and just now sent it before reading your accusation. heh heh
manny t’s got a game loaded and ready for purchase i think.
jhan
May 17th, 2009
6:44 pm
Josh has the ability to relentlessy abuse people at the rim – when he chooses to play that way. Unfortunately he fancies himself a shooter instead of an ustoppable inside force.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
6:59 pm
Doc,
If it’s score we’re keeping, I seem to recall that you wanted Yi INSTEAD of HORFORD….
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
7:07 pm
Jhan,
I agree that Josh’s inside game is far more effective than his outside game. But your statement assumes two things: one, that developing a reliable jumper won’t help him (that physical explosiveness won’t be around forever). Two, that he shoots from the outside more than the inside. The second one certainly isn’t true, as there would be no way he was shooting over 49% from the field over the course of the season. And he was shootin better than that prior to his near-late season free fall in which he also wasn’t rebounding worth a crap.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
7:09 pm
But hey, you might get lucky. He could get traded.
Melvin,
Marvin for cash, huh? I sure hope this isn’t one of those “we want cap space” deals. And what kind of cash, I wonder? Better yet, what would we use it for? Hopefully not one of Sund’s old ideas: a tall stiff who never pans out…
ant banks
May 17th, 2009
7:18 pm
ken, you make some very poignant post, very high bball acumen, but i question your call for woody’s head. SAASG, as you so aptly call it, will not get rid of woodson.
they will not eat a year of his salary and ponie up big money for a new coach, when the present one has done nothin’ but improve over the past 4 years, with 2 playoffs run.
their is nothin’ about the SAASG that would remotely suggest that they will can woody, so can we skip that analysis and stick with somethin’ less certain. woody is certainly comin’ back!!
ant banks
May 17th, 2009
7:28 pm
MANNY T, thanks for the info. it was drivin’ me nuts!!!
i think that the hawks mgt. will be able to make some great leeway this summer. with the salary cap lower and teams not spendin’ big in the FA market waitin’ on LBJ sweepstakes. there should be some deals out there for the takin.
i like everythin’ that you guys are pointin’ out. all of it sounds possible and good…EXCEPT FOR “FIRE WOODY!!” if they fire woody, i will not blog on this site for a whole 2 weeks!!!
Najeh Davenpoop
May 17th, 2009
7:29 pm
Yi JIanlian makes Marvin Williams look like James Worthy.
Yeah, the Hawks need to make trades, but trades need to either improve the team’s talent now or vastly improve the team’s cap flexibility for next year, ideally both. Trading Marvin for Yi accomplishes neither.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
7:43 pm
Too true, Najeh…
Hoops
May 17th, 2009
7:45 pm
Ant Banks,
You are right. Coach Woodson will be back. Like him or not, the Hawks have greatly improved each season under his watch! The Hawks are not there yet, but a few key moves this off season could put them right there with the Cavs.
Use J. Smith to get a quality 5 man and use Marvin to get a quality PG. Those two players could bring the Hawks answers @ the 1 and 5 positions!
mykhalc
May 17th, 2009
7:48 pm
DOC and MannyT, LMAO fellas!!! MannyT, you know me bro…PERIOD!!!LOL
mykhalc
May 17th, 2009
7:53 pm
oh yeah…DENVER NUGGETS 2009 NBA CHAMPS!!! just sayin’!!!
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
7:57 pm
“The Sixers showed they are deep in talent when they gave Orlando a strong challenge in the first round of the playoffs. Keep in mind that they are expected to have two healthy big men back next season in Elton Brand and Jason Smith. But one big question is whether they will be able to re-sign free agent point guard Andre Miller. Not having him run the show could ruin any hopes of joining Boston, Cleveland, Orlando, and Atlanta as an Eastern Conference power next season.”
Holy crap. Did we just get called an Eastern Conference Power?
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
8:12 pm
Woodson will be back next year because he’s still under contract, and the team achieved better results than last year.
What happens next season will be the real story. This team had nowhere to go but up after winning 13 games 4 years ago. While we made the playoffs last year, we did so with a losing record. This year, we had our first winning record. Next season will have to be as good (or at least similar in a number of ways) for it to be considered a success.
Back to back winning seasons is the key to true success. Winning more each year while you’re still losing overall is improvement, but it’s not “arrival.”
Woody helps this team win back-to-back, and he’s proven that he’s a true winner, in my opinion. Take a step back, and all the ugliness rises to the top.
Of course, I’m sure the alibis are ready. If Sund doesn’t do something a certain way, it will be his fault for not giving Woody what he needs to succeed. If he does make some good moves, then it will be Woody that got the job done, while Sund gets little to no credit. Heh. Always makes for a lively “discussion.”
Cap Flexibility for 2010. Ummm…not sure why. Are we going after a consolation prize? Because I don’t see us as big players in the gigantic free agency game. But like anybody else, I really don’t have a clue.
And unlike Chad Ford, I refuse to spoon with a league executive (or any other male) for info…
Astro Joe
May 17th, 2009
8:26 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Sund the GM who signed Earl Watson to a fairly hefty deal when the team already had Ridnour? And isn’t he the guy who signed Wilcox to a nce-sized contract for average at best production? Maybe he changed his ways with Chlldress but he seems to have over-spent in the past.
Marvin for Yi? Laughable. In case you didn’t know, there is a decent Chinese population in and around New York and New Jersey (ever heard of Chinatown). And the Nets, as I recall, have been trying to get a new arena built for the last 750 years. If that team is willing to dump Yi, then both his play AND his economic impact must be lacking.
Here’s hopng that Sund’s theme is NO MORE PROJECTS (at least not amongst the top 8 players).
Ray, do Maxiell, Powe or Millsap grab rebounds when they’re comnng off the bench?
Guys, if we keep our #19 pck, are you expecting to find a starting caliber player for a team looking to return to the playoffs? Just for a little perspective, the last 3 #19 picks chosen were JJ Hickson (Cavs), Jarvaris Crittenton (Lakers) and Quincy Douby (Kings). So again, I ask, are you expecting a starter at #19? (I don’t think any of those guys were even in the playing rotations for their respective teams in their rookie season).
ant banks
May 17th, 2009
8:46 pm
celts are slow and old!! with the right moves hawks can move to the 3 seed!! last year, we had orlando’s number, but since they got reshard lewis and rafer alston, they have been maulin’ us.
orlando is goin’ to have to do somethin’ with their guard situation, jameer will be back next season.
Astro Joe
May 17th, 2009
8:53 pm
The second half of the Celts-Magic could be epic. Magic are notorious for giving away huge leads and Celts are the champs at home in a game seven. This feels like a nail-biter waiting to happen.
ant banks
May 17th, 2009
8:56 pm
ASTRO,
don’t forget that the celts “melted down” the other night
jhan
May 17th, 2009
9:06 pm
Eastern Conference Power – I like the sound of that!!!!
ant banks
May 17th, 2009
9:07 pm
durin’ the previous time out, doc rivers alluded to the fact that they need to “trust each other.” this is a term that i heard jj use EVERY time we lost.
what are they talkin’ about? what does trust have to do with basketball? if you are comin’ down on a two-on-one pass the ball. if you MISS the shot, had nothin’ to do with TRUST.
i jus’ never got what jj was talkin’ about
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
9:20 pm
“Ray, do Maxiell, Powe or Millsap grab rebounds when they’re comnng off the bench?”
Astro Joe,
Yeah, they do. They also get adequate playing time. And we don’t have any of those guys. Not trying to be a smart-a$$, but what are you getting at?
Astro Joe
May 17th, 2009
9:22 pm
ant, I think that means that instead of a player feeling like he has to take and make the shot, that he trusts his teammates and passes the ball or they maintain the defensive scheme as opposed to trying to do too much themselves to stop every possession. Kind of like telling a pitcher to throw strikes and trust that the fielders will get the job done.
Astro Joe
May 17th, 2009
9:23 pm
Ray, I thought that you were suggesting that Blair won’t get rebounds off the bench.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
9:32 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Sund the GM who signed Earl Watson to a fairly hefty deal when the team already had Ridnour? And isn’t he the guy who signed Wilcox to a nce-sized contract for average at best production? Maybe he changed his ways with Chlldress but he seems to have over-spent in the past.
Ha! Don’t be facetious. You know you’re not wrong. At least Watson played. Did Speedy? Uh-huh.
I figure Sund signed Wilcox based on what he thought he could do. The guy still has potential. Don’t know if he’ll realize it all, but he might in New York. Hell, at least we know Sund will spend the money instead of yapping about cap space…assuming the 7 dwarves say it’s okay.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
9:34 pm
LOL! No, Astro Joe, I was suggesting that Blair might not get off the bench. I hope he can be like Milsap, Maxiel, or Powe. But he would have to get off the bench to show us what he can or can’t do.
Ken Strickland
May 17th, 2009
9:36 pm
TERRELL BARRON-with the emergence of DRose, and BGordon under a longteam contract, the Bulls will likely want to get rid of Heinrick’s contract and might be open to ALaw and Speedy’s contract plus a draft pick. Let’s face it, unless we draft another AHorford type, which won’t happen where we’re drafting, a rookie isn’t likely to see the light of day and won’t last beyond his rookie contract under Woodson. So, we might as well trade our picks for vets that will be given a chance to play and contribute.
I like Heinrick for Woodson’s limited jumpshooting OFF because he’s steady, doesn’t make a lot of mistakes, shoots with range and accuracy and would be an excellent compliment to JJ. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, HE HAS SIZE, PLAYS VERY GOOD DEF AND WOULD FREE JJ OF THE BURDEN OF HAVING TO COVER FOR BIBBY BY DEFENDING EVERYONE ELSE’S QPG.
darrell starks
May 17th, 2009
9:38 pm
Last year i thought that we wouldnt make the playoff or fininsh 7 or 8 but i was wrong we fininsh 4th but this year i gurantee if we bring back the same coach and dont add a player who will be and impact player at the 3 or 5 position we will finish 6 7 OR 8TH seed or might not make the playoffs.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
9:38 pm
Ant,
JJ would talk about trust, then not show it. Then again, sometimes his teammates wouldn’t prove to be very trustworthy. I’m of the belief that guys have to extend some trust first. Let your teammates prove themselves. And don’t look for it to happen overnight, or in just a few games.
Guys will miss shots. Everybody does. Guys will make bad decisions. The best way (I think) to build and maintain trust is to keep passing the ball, then hold them accountable for doing what they are supposed to do.
What I saw in JJ, and in his teammates (except Bibby) was: pass the ball, then if the receiver missed the shot or made a bad decision, they wouldn’t get it again. He can’t keep doing that.
darrell starks
May 17th, 2009
9:48 pm
Even under sucess you have to make tough decision and fire your coach all great organization does it.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 17th, 2009
9:56 pm
We are consider in the top 5 among the worst city in sports with only 1 championship and thats the 1995 braves im tired of being a mediocrity sports town especially in basketball we must change that and here is and opportunity for us to do that with the right decision.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
10:00 pm
darrell starks,
I think that firing a coach “under success” is more about the definition of success than it is about anything else. Flip Saunders was a good coach in my opinion. He was fired DESPITE winning records year after year. The problem was that Detroit defined success as doing more than just having a winning season and making the playoffs every year. They felt that Flip couldn’t get them past doing just that, when they wanted to be in the Eastern Finals every year at the very least (if not contending for the NBA title).
On the flip side, Woody hasn’t even had the chance yet to show he can win in back to back seasons. Firing him means we don’t think he can bring us to a higher level of success than we’ve achieved. Well, in all fairness, letting him alone for the remainder of his contract is the least we can do.
Having said that, if you don’t think we’ll at least maintain current status (or better) this next season, or get better AFTER that (and I’m talking even with adding key pieces to the roster), then I say fire him. Otherwise, firing him now has to be for personal or organizational reasons. And they would be reasons beyond the surface, where things like “improving year after year” are not necessarily what people may think.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
10:17 pm
I hope the Magic stomp the Celtics.
darrell starks
May 17th, 2009
10:35 pm
BIG BROTHER RAY i respect your logic of opinion but i have been watching woody now for five years and i no a good coach when i see one and im just not feeling woody on that level of taking this team team to the next level on the other hand detriot decision to fire flip saunders was a dum move not only that dumar decision on trading away chauncy for iverson was another dum move when you had the foundation of that team establish its just some things you dont do and dumar made 2 bad decision.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 17th, 2009
10:39 pm
I say pull the plug right now on woody and hire avery johnson.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Astro Joe
May 17th, 2009
10:40 pm
See, if we had kept Lue and AJ, we’d be going to the Eastern Conf. Finals just like the Magic. We had our championship-caliber PGs all along!
Melvin
May 17th, 2009
10:40 pm
Darrell,
Make that 3 bad decisions for Dumars. Don’t forget about the drafting of Darko when he could have drafted Melo, Bosh or Wade….
Astro Joe
May 17th, 2009
10:45 pm
Darrell, you must want to fire Woody because you think that he should do better in the playoffs. So why would you want to hire Avery who has had HISTORIC post-season failure as a head coach?
doc
May 17th, 2009
10:47 pm
aj interesting how the world goes round isnt it?
ray, yup.
also got your wish.
btw, yi is not a three whoever suggested it.
darrell starks
May 17th, 2009
10:49 pm
Why waste another year lets move on to success this city and the fans deserve it.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!
MannyT
May 17th, 2009
10:57 pm
I’m with Barkley–I can see Orlando beating the Cavs.
darrell starks
May 17th, 2009
11:05 pm
AVERY resamay first a good student of the game no how to make adjustment when neccerly won a nba title when playing point guard for santonio took dallas to the championship to loose in game6 to the heat led dallas to the best record in the nba 63-19 but marc silly a$$ cuban made a dum decision and trade devin harris for kidd and byron davis of goldenstate ate his a$$ for lunch that was cuban who made that dum trade and avery said he didnt want kid and for that cuban fire him because he just like jerry jones of the cowboys they both have a ego problem and for that they will allways be loosers.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!
Melvin
May 17th, 2009
11:06 pm
Not sure if David Stern would let the Magic beat the Cavs….
MannyT
May 17th, 2009
11:07 pm
Ray,
Here is my late 1st round counter argument with one disclaimer…Sund has not shown me that the draft is his strength so why would he pick any better here than he did in past stops.
2008 Courtney Lee of Orlando was picked 22nd
2007 Rudy Fernandez of Portland was picked 24th
2006 Rondo was picked 21st
It just depends on the year, but there are always multiple players that make the league that were drafted outside of the lottery
2005 was a fine year.
Starting with the 19th pick all of the following were picked late in the 1st round.
Hakim Warrick
Nate Robinson
Jarret Jack
Francisco Garcia
Jason Maxiell
Linas Kleiza
& David Lee
We have a chance to get a contributor that belongs in the rotation.
BWAF
Melvin
May 17th, 2009
11:08 pm
Doc,
I wouldn’t give up hope on Yi just yet. He may be one of those late developing type players. I mean, he does have all the tools to be a good player…
darrell starks
May 17th, 2009
11:16 pm
o melvin i forgot that one 2.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!
doc
May 17th, 2009
11:32 pm
yeah melvin, i am just waiting in the background on that one just like arioese does on his salim watch. i could say i am a better bet to crow than him …. heh heh … but who really knows.
i assure you ray will be the first to hear it.
The Flash
May 17th, 2009
11:33 pm
Astroman, my thinking is simple. If the Wizards get anything but the one-one in the lottery, and the big big is still available, they have to take him and keep him.
If they do that they must let McKee go if they can get value, either him or the UNC guy but I think it will be McKee.
If McKee is available, then I think that the Hawks HAVE to get him if they do not get Bosh. I do not think that there is a sensible choice here, but to try mightily. Probably would require a three way, but with the big big Washington must retool to run, imo. They also could use Bibby (if Gil doesn’t make it back) and could use to dump Eton. I’ll leave it to guys like you and Andoman to work the details out.
If they don’t get the kid from Okalahoma, they must take the big-big and keep him, they will keep the older of the two centers to start at least through the first half the season, perhaps the entire season, and McKee is superfluous and valuable to any team that needs a center, which Atlanta desparately does.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
11:43 pm
Doc,
I’ll still take Horford over Yi for our purposes any day. Even when Yi develops into something better, assuming he does. Put him on this squad with what we have and watch disaster. His relationship with Woody would’ve had us at war with China.
Now, here’s the guy I’m counting on you to be right about: Javaris Crittenton. Always thought you might be right about him vs. Law, but saw the reasoning in choosing Law. Talented young prospects with any hint of rawness are a no-no in the Woody dome.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
11:46 pm
MannyT,
I have no arguments with that. We can indeed get a contributor in the draft that belongs in the rotation. My concern is that we DO get such a contributor, and that he is ALLOWED to contribute. Of course, that sparks yet another argument: Speculation on actual prospect talent vs. the Woody Developmental Process.
I’m just sayin’….
niremetal
May 17th, 2009
11:47 pm
Ray/Melvin/cp/etc,
The national media folks don’t know their ass from their elbows when it comes to ASG. Remember all the bullsh!t about us trading Josh and the #3 for Amare a couple years back? The offer probably was never even discussed, a fact that was underlined by the fact that ESPN reported that Belkin blocked the trade (which would have impossible since Belkin had been removed from all team operations by that point).
This is similarly BS. There are 2 reasons for Team A to do a sign-and-trade with Team B instead of signing Team B’s player straight up. Reason 1 – the most common reason – is that Team A doesn’t have the cap space to sign the player on their own. Say that Team A has $5M in cap space; they can’t sign another team’s free agent for more than $5M then. But since teams can re-sign their own players even if that puts them over the cap, a sign-and-trade provides a loophole – technically, Team B re-signs the player, and then ships that player to Team A in a trade in which the salaries match up.
Obviously, that first reason wouldn’t apply at all to a sign-and-trade for cash. If only cash is given back, then the salaries obviously wouldn’t match up. If Team A has only $5M in cap space, trading for a player with a $7M salary would put them over the cap just the same as signing him would.
Reason #2 to do a sign-and-trade if Team A isn’t sure whether Team B would match an offer sheet and doesn’t want to risk it. This was Billy’s reasoning in doing a sign-and-trade for JJ – the Hawks could have signed JJ to an offer sheet without going over the cap, but he was paranoid that Phoenix would match and the Hawks would be left with nothing.
This reasoning rarely makes sense, and would make zero sense in a “player-for-cash” trade. After all, if Team B says that they will let a player go in exchange for cash, that’s a pretty clear signal that Team B doesn’t have the cash to sign the player on their own. So again, a “Marvin-for-cash” would make no sense.
Translation of all this? Some putzes have nothing interesting to write about now that the season has winded down for 26 teams, so they’ve decided to just start making sh!t up. Because I’d be willing to bet $50 and give 50:1 odds that a sign-and-trade of Marvin for cash won’t happen.
Big Ray
May 17th, 2009
11:57 pm
Melvin,
You got Dumars pegged. But as is typical of a GM, he gets to “forget” his mistakes and make wholesale changes to “make up” for them. Heh. After what happened with Billups, he better have some really good moves up his sleeve…
Flash,
Interesting thoughts. I could only hope that it works out that way. McGee is no post enforcer, but he would be a nice addition. The kid is tall (7′0″ in shoes), long (7′6″ wingspan), and athletic as hell.
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
12:00 am
Okay, Nire. After you pass the BAR, you can bring a class action suit against The New York Daily News on behalf of the blog.
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
12:20 am
Ray, by putting conditions on the draft you take all the fun out of the dreams and squash them with reality. You know reality used to be a friend of mine, but that way awhile back…approximately around PM Dawn
Between Sund and Woody, the most likely positive course of action is trading picks and young players for established vets. Woody probably plays vets and Sund doesn’t get to draft some guy that is 7 ft, but has better career prospects as a window washer than a NBA center.
niremetal–option C on sign & trade. If your team is over the cap, the most you can sign a player for is the mid level exception. Marvin’s tender is more than the MLE. If your team wants to offer him 7 mil as a starting salary, they need to do a sign & trade. That was the problem that Chills had. Other teams wanted him, but Sund wasn’t interested in the S&T or paying Chills more than a MLE contract.
If you S&T or regular trade a guy that has recently signed a contract, there are funky things that happen relative to the way the contract is valued in a trade. Trading a player away in that situation the original team counts 1/2 the value. So if Marvin signed a deal that started at 8 mil, the Hawks trade that away like a 4 mil contract. Now that becomes 3 mil in cash (max per rule) and a 1 mil player +/- 25%. FYI the -25% puts you on a minimum contract guy which is the easiest of throw ins.
I am not saying the Marvin sign & trade is likely, but it is easily possible. If there is a plan out there (that I would generally disagree with) to move Josh to SF, Al to PF and bring in a center (who better be able to shoot like a SF) this is a way to remove Marvin’s tender charge off the cap. That 7 mil is above the MLE, so it could be an attractive method to get someone better than we would expect.
BWAF
niremetal
May 18th, 2009
12:26 am
Manny,
Marvin’s tender hold is not transferable to other players. We can’t sign Marvin, trade him, and end up with more cap space than we started with…
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
12:34 am
Oooooh. Manny vs. Nire in a financial transaction match. Gonna be a good one. Guess who my money is on? Heh heh heh.
niremetal
May 18th, 2009
12:39 am
Also, your MLE example is basically Option A. It’s just an example of a team not having enough cap space to sign a player, and thus needing to take advantage of the other team’s ability to re-sign that player for more than you can afford.
The rest of your explanation is nonsensical. Marvin’s new contract for $8M would be effective immediately. The Hawks would not be allowed to “trade that away like a 4 mil contract.” You can look at questions 67, 68, 73, and 76 on the “NBA Salary Cap FAQ,” which explains all of this. The short version of the story is that there is no possible way for a team that is over the cap to receive Marvin in a sign-and-trade in which they give up nothing but cash. If Marvin is to be signed for $8M, then a team would not be able to sign him unless they had at least $8M in cash space, and would not be able to trade for him unless they 1) had at least $8M in cap space; or 2) traded away players in exchange for Marvin who salaries totaled at least $6.4M (using the 125% trade exception). There are no ways around that rule that are relevant to a restricted free agent like Marvin.
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
12:39 am
Love the PM Dawn referrence, Manny.
I’m not down on the draft. Just hoping for better effects/results. We went 1 for 2 in the lottery last time. That shouldn’t happen. And while there are some good talents who should be available at our pick, Sund doesn’t exactly inspire confidence on draft day, and Woody inspires little comes season opener.
But I could be way off base. Sund could pick a good ‘un, and Woody could coach ‘em (and play) ‘em into a bonafide steady contributor.
….and I could win the lottery without buying a ticket. Let’s hope their luck is way better than mine…
niremetal
May 18th, 2009
12:39 am
(Ya like that, Ray – I ramped it up a notch just for you
)
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
12:41 am
“The rest of your explanation is nonsensical.”
Them there is fightin’ words!
niremetal
May 18th, 2009
12:47 am
and I could win the lottery without buying a ticket. Let’s hope their luck is way better than mine…
Didn’t you ever see “It Could Happen to You?” Stranger things have happened. But nothing so strange as Sund drafting a decent center or Woody properly developing a young guard has ever happened.
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
12:51 am
Heard THAT…
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
12:53 am
Manny must have retired for the night. Either that, or he concedes the MFA (Mixed Financial Arts) match to Niremetal. How anti-climactic….
Heh Heh. Where’s Ariose to ramp things back up?
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
1:03 am
…LOL@ all of you.
Manny, all I wanna know is, If we do a S&T with Marvin(I’ll even throw in Acie too) Is getting RUUUDDDDYYY GAAAYYY!!!!(PA Announcer voice) possible?
Also, what about the fact that Bibby is old and we need a PG cornerstone for the future? BWAF???
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
1:06 am
I like Rudy Gay. But Memphis does need a good reason to get rid of a 20ppg scorer…what would that reason be, and can we provide it…reasonably?
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
1:08 am
Ariose,
Your guess is as good as mine when it comes to solving the pg situation. Leave it up to Woody, and we will do precisely what we’ve been doing: Bibby starts, Flip subs. Who knows what Sund thinks. He’s as quiet as Billy Knight at the moment.
Speaking of which, I wonder what he and Billy were talking about during that playoff game in which he had Billy over in the executive suite?
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
1:09 am
NONSENSICAL…Where is Dr Seuss when I need him…hmmm
As of the end of the season, the Hawks are under the cap. To figure out how much space they have under the cap, you have to apply the tender charge for restricted free agents (only Marvin) until there is some sort of resolution. So if they wanted to renounce the bird rights on all the other guys, then you still have to include Marvin’s one year tender because he doesn’t get to walk for free.
I could find the specifics, but I’m not going there before Memorial Day…just a personal moratorium. You should be able to find it in one of the Salary Cap sites.
As you went into one of them to do your work, check out the parts on sign and trades. I’d go far enough w/o looking to say that the same thing would happen if you “officially” traded Josh before July 1. (Technically the Hawks won’t be under the cap until the current guys are officially free agents in July.) There was a similar situation in the 2008 draft. I forget who, but the deal wasn’t effective until the player was beyond the first year of his new deal so he would not have that funky application of salary in the trade.
Check the post–I put a player in that trade for Marvin. It was at a 1 mil salary. May not have had the numbers exact, but the basic concept holds. When you trade a player soon after you sign him, the salary amount that you have to match up with in a trade is 1/2 the actual value for the team he leaves.
You can save this and throw it back at me after Memorial Day, but I doubt there will be a need…as long as you don’t judge, before you read
I meant what I said and I said what I meant…
BWAF
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
1:22 am
shame on me for doing something else during the slander instead of patrolling the blog.
I’m back for about 30 mins.
ray, I’m sure part of it was the fraternity of guys with exclusive jobs sharing a chat about the people that BK put here. No need to go through another bad PR summer while he waits out the Marvin RFA. Maybe BK had some insights.
Ariose, I am not digging deep in any of the rules stuff for the next week.
Can we get Rudy Gay. I’d say no, unless the GM in Memphis is trying to get fired. From a cap standpoint it’s easy because he is still on a rookie contract. RandMo + Law or Evans get the money side done. No Marvin needed. If you are real anxious about moving Marvin, I’d suspect that it could happen with him as well, but trickier with his contract.
So the wordplay says Mo Mo (or Mo Law) gets you Gay…no that I am judging in any way
BWAF
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
1:40 am
Ray, I hope Bibby was schooling him on how to draft lol. I’d rather have BK manage our picks than Sund based on his track record. What has the world come to? LOL!
Manny/Ray, thanks for tha insight. All i’m sayin’ is, My gut tells me Marvin will be back, but if Sund does indeed try to trade him, It better be for an upgrade(Gay). I don’t think Ariza is an upgrade. He’d nice, in addtion to having Marvin on the Roster, but by himself, not so much.
Ray, Memphis gave up Pau Gasol. At this point I’m willing to bet if Sund thinks hard enough, he can come up with a way to sucker them into a deal lol. Anaything’s possible with those guys hehehe…How about the rights to Derek Andersen for Gay? It’s just like them Gettin Marc’s rights in exchange for his brother. I’m tellin’ ya, my “sucker” radar is on full alert concerning those guys.
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
1:47 am
Does this mean I won because I’m awake at this hour?
Not that I’m in it for the W…plenty of time for that before the next regular season starts.
On that Dumars thing…I would not be surprised if Woody ended up in Detroit if we let him go. They seem to appreciate him much more up there. I also believe the Woody will be better in his 2nd head coaching job than his first.
BWAF
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
2:02 am
MannyT,
Yep! You win. At least until the retort comes along, then it’s on again. Or something like that…
As for Memphis trading, I concur. As I said, motivation is needed for trading away such a scoring punch (nevermind that he rebounds and plays defense too).
Ariose,
They let Gasol go for a reason. They’re firmly in their rebuilding phase. They let Lowry go as well, and I believe I know why. Now, they have a center. They could use a real PF, and that’s what they’ll be after, especially considering all they’ve got at that position now is Hakim Warrick (not really a PF), and Darrell Arthur (too early to tell, but not wowing anybody yet). Gay and Mayo are as good a young scoring punch as you are going to get at the SF and SG spots. And they have the perfect pg to run it all in Conley. Why? Because unlike Lowry, Conley doesn’t have to, nor does he need to (and he really just can’t)….shoot. He penetrates, defends, dishes. Nice to have, when you can get it…
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
2:05 am
Manny,
Again, I agree. Woody will be better in his second job. Most coaches usually are. They learn. And I don’t figure him for acquiring the PJ Carlesimo disease. He’s too smart for that.
But that’s assuming they let him go. I don’t blame Detroit for liking him. Hell, he’d probably like it better there anyway. A GM he knows, players he knows, vets everywhere you look. Right up his alley, and couldn’t blame him.
I gather you are most likely right about Sund/Knight. Consultation is never a bad thing. Unless you’re looking to Amy Winehouse for advice…
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
2:05 am
Ariose, you can accidentally get a good player in a sign & trade, but usually the main guy in the deal is so much better than the guys that come back to the team.
Here’s one for you and niremetal. When Orlando and Seattle (OKC) did the sign & trade for Rashard Lewis and that fat $118 mil contract…the Magic gave up what?
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
2:05 am
“Ray, I hope Bibby was schooling him on how to draft lol. I’d rather have BK manage our picks than Sund based on his track record. What has the world come to? LOL!”
LOL…
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
2:10 am
Manny,
Yeah that’s true. The main guy is usually more talented. But there is always a reason behind it. The general, all-purpose answer is asset management. You need to move the player, usually because what he wants to get paid isn’t worth the production you get out of him, he doesn’t fit, etc. Nearly always about the money in some way, shape, or form.
And the guys you get in return (or at least the bulk thereof) are guys you are okay with taking on as assets. They either fit what you are putting on the court, or they are useful in other ways. Usually. Not always. Sometimes you just acquire them because they give you cap space in the end.
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
2:11 am
Here’s one for you and niremetal. When Orlando and Seattle (OKC) did the sign & trade for Rashard Lewis and that fat $118 mil contract…the Magic gave up what?
Ah. Good one…
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
2:19 am
Short answer…nothing but leverage.
In fact it was a conditional 2nd round pick and a big old trade exception. The things you can do when you are under the cap!
If I am correct, that big old trade exception allowed them to do that magic beans trade with Phoenix. Seattle was forced to take Kurt Thomas and 2 first round picks from the Suns for a 2nd round pick. If Phoenix stinks next year, that could become something big.
BWAF
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
2:20 am
Manny, The Magic sent Seattle a conditional second-round pick, while the SuperSonics earned a trade exception believed to be in the $9 million range. I was very angry about that.
On the flip-side Lewis said back then that there wasn’t much of a difference between the Magic and the Cavs(who had just been swept by the spurs in the finals). He also said the Magic would rise top the top of the east quickly and contend for a title. Well, he’s 1/2 so far. Let’s see how he fares against LeBron. Time to put your money(all 118 million of it) where your mouth is Sweet Lou.
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
2:22 am
Manny, NO FAIR! You answered too quickly! Hehehehe….
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
2:34 am
Otis was either going to look really smart or reall stupid. So far,it’s going good. We’ll see what happens in the ECF though. That Move took some realbress though. It helps when you havea supportive owner though heh.
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
2:36 am
Ray, you are correct about the asset management, but part of it is the rules of the trade. You cannot get back similar salary in some sign & trade deals, so you get the discount dudes and fill in the blank bodies.
No disrespect to Brent Barry & Antonio McDyess, but both of them got traded in the last 2 seasons to make the numbers work. San Antionio lost out because Barry did not come back after his 30 days. McDyess went back to Detroit after he made the numbers work in the Iverson/Billups deal.
We even had that situation in Atlanta. Technically the Hawks had the rights to the older, less productive Gary Payton when they sent Antoine Walker back to Boston several years ago. However, he didn’t want to be here and BK was ok with him not being here.
Enough for me for the night…I’ll leave with the good Dr. S.
Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
2:48 am
Ariose, you get full credit for the answer. My point was that sign & trades do not follow the normal NBA trade paths…something I learned while working my (ray style) MFA.
g’night
CJ
May 18th, 2009
7:30 am
Don’t laugh all at once. But, I think the Hawks would be wise to draft in-state talent Garrett Siler from Augusta State University. He made the all tournament team at this years Portmouth Invitational Tournament and helped lead the Jags to the Div. II playoffs 2 years straight.
terrell barron
May 18th, 2009
7:30 am
If we plan on moving Smoove to sf, God forbid, we better bring in a center like Okur, who has range.
doc
May 18th, 2009
9:27 am
missed it as i joined the game late, seems howard threw a punch but didnt land it and nothing happens. zaza “overreacts” and gets thrown in less than 2 seconds. who really over reacted zaza or the ref. especially when wally szerbiak does about the same thing a few night s later and stays on board for the rest of the game. sometimes the refs make it difficult to be an nba fan. not saying howard should have been thrown only zaza needed to get a little more backing form the powers that be in that one. both were big games and both were under a lot of pressure. howard probably was tired of the holds on him just as zaza was “reacting” to a double team when he should have gotten the call because both hits were on him a charge and a grab pull down from behind.
Melvin
May 18th, 2009
9:42 am
Ray/Manny,
I will back Ariose on the Rudy Gay trade b/c it’s been reported that he was unhappy in Memphis since the young gunner (Mayo) arrived. I guess he doesn’t want to be 2nd fiddle to him. If this is still the case, than maybe its an outside chance that he could be traded especially if threatens not resign after next season. However, we may be a season premature for that scenario…
Ken
May 18th, 2009
10:14 am
I still think that there is not a health relationship between players and the head coach. FIRE the coach!!!
yetta
May 18th, 2009
10:30 am
Joe Johnson is not our answer as a “LEADER”. He has not confidence in any player but Bibby. Tha Our weakness is JJ and Bibby’s love for each other. How many points have we lost because of the passing back and forth between JJ and Bibby? They pass to each other until the last seconds and then pass to JSmoove so he makes a last minute jump shot. Josh is the scapegoat for JJ and Bibby’s love for each other. They need to trust the other players more and pass the ball. How many shots has JJ missed because he didn’t shoot or pass the ball soon enough. He is not ALL THAT!!!!!!
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
10:32 am
So what does it mean when you get a message that says that “your comment is awaiting moderation”?
doc
May 18th, 2009
11:42 am
you probably put an attachment to it. where it goes i dont know but when i linked something yesterday i went to moderation land myself.
darrell starks
May 18th, 2009
12:14 pm
Melvin me to like rudy gay i would trade for him in a heart beat.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 18th, 2009
12:20 pm
There is three players that i think could take us to the next level bosh, stoudemire, rudy all three player are planning on leaving there team when the opportunity is there.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
1:44 pm
Didn’t Gay say at the end of the season that he was anxious to extend his contract and cstay in Memphis?
http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/mar/20/grizzlies-aiming-for-deal-with-gay/?partner=RSS
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
1:48 pm
Part 1 of a post stuck in moderation.
CJ, I would take Siler in the 2nd round and send him to the NBDL and pay for a nutritionist to work with him. That would be a wise investment. Even in his current condition, he;s probably better than RandMo.
Manny, no doubt that there are always good players late in the first round and even in the second round. But we all know that the draft is a crap shoot, not just for the Hawks but for every team. How many teams whiffed on Micheal Redd, Gilbert Arenas and Manu Ginobli? Probably 25 or more.
I guess this notion of Woody as the poor developer of talent comes from Acie’s lack of development. Which I agree has been poor. Woody has certainly rewarded every other 1st round pick with plenty of playing time in thier rookie season. The Joshes, Marvin, Shelden & Horford all received plenty of time.
I just looked at Acie’s splits for his rookie season. Strange, I thought that he had played well prior to Bibby’s arrival (Pre All-Star stats). I was wrong. But he was getting almost 17 minutes per game pre-Bibby.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=3219&sYear=2008&sType=3
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
1:49 pm
Part 2 of moderating post.
The other thing I forgot was how much Acie was hurt in his rookie year. Ankle and wrist injuries cost him to miss a ton of game last season. If you click on the scores for the games where he played 0 minutes, you will mostly find DNP-Injury. I think I found 1-2 DNP-Coaches Decision, but mostly, dude had troubles last year (and this year) staying healthy.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=3219&year=2008
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
1:50 pm
Last part.
Second round picks also need nurturing and Woody hasn’t found a way to get those guys consistent run (other than Salim’s first two seasons).
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=2786
I guess my point is that Woody does play his first round picks in their rookie seasons (when they’re healthy). He does give them a chance to get and stay in the rotation. In Law’s case, he could have done more but let’s also say that Acie could have done more to force the issue (sub 38% shooting doesn’t scream “I am worthy of floor time on a team trying to make the playoffs”).
bigdave
May 18th, 2009
1:54 pm
Oberto… Kurt Thomas…?
dap01
May 18th, 2009
2:12 pm
AC would have 4 assists and no turnovers in 6 minutes. He performed well when given an opportunity. Bibby could have turnovers and shoot 3 for 13 and still get his extended minutes even though he is the most worn out 30 year old ever. He can guard NOBODY!
Can you imagine how ineffective Bibby will be after next year (being 1 year older). Oh I forgot, Woody will start using his bench effectively next year. He won’t because he will again be playing for every win trying to get another contract.
It is so frustrating being a Hawks fan.
Melvin
May 18th, 2009
2:26 pm
Astro,
Good link on Rudy Gay. Maybe I read too much into some of the statements but I detect some double (or very cautious) talk.
They must be far apart with his salary expectation….
“I have no real thoughts on that either way,” Hollins said. “If a guy is reasonable, it’ll get done. I just don’t think anybody can take (negotiations) personal. I don’t think Rudy can take it personal. I don’t think his agent can take it personal. The organization can’t. It’s just business.”
Among the factors both sides will consider will be money and the length of a potential deal. Expect Gay to consult Paul, who signed a three-year extension instead of a five-year extension after doing research and talking to LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.
“At one time, Gay appeared to be headed toward earning the maximum salary allowed. Those terms may be in jeopardy given Gay’s inconsistent season.
His averages in points (18.8), rebounds (5.7), assists (1.7), overall shooting (44 percent) and 3-point shooting (31 percent) are all down from last season.
Despite playing for his fourth coach in a Grizzlies uniform, Gay sounds no less committed to excellence.
“I have the potential to be a franchise player,” Gay said. “This year didn’t really show it. But everybody that’s seen me play knows I’m capable. I think this organization’s heart is in the right place. I just want them behind me. I guess we’ll see this summer how much they support me.”
You wanna now why Gay was inconsistent this season, two words. OJ Mayo…
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
2:29 pm
Woody should make a deal with Sund that if 10 players average 15 or more minutes next season, that he gets a 3 year contract, regardless of the team’s record.
Sund should make a deal with the owners that he will not lose his job if Woody finishes the year with 10 players who average 15 or more minutes next season, regardless of record.
Owners should make a deal with the season ticketholders that they will renew their tickets as long as Woody has 10 players who average 15 or minutes minutes per game regardless of the team’s record.
Viewers should make a deal with the networks that they will continue to watch the Hawks as long as Woody has 10 players who average at least 15 minutes… regardless of their record.
The networks should make a deal with the corporations that they will continue to purchase advertising from the networks for Hawks games as long as Woody has 10 or more players who average at least 15 minutes… regardless of their record.
And we should collectively make a deal with each other that all of our blogged comments about the Hawks shall be positive next year as long as Woody has 10 players who average at least… regardless of their record.
Somewhere, between a 13 win season and a 47 win season, many stopped caring for wins and grew content watching the turnstyle at the scorers table. WTF is that about?
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
3:02 pm
Melvin, yup. I don’t remeber the article(I will look for it) but It said that Early on in the season Rudy was frustrated with OJ and his penchant for being a “chucker” and ignoring the offense.
I think it was a case of plays breaking down or being jumped by the opposition and Rudy not appeciating the ISO-O.J Mayo, instead of getting the ball to Rudy or down low to Gasol. Mike Miller was completewly different because he did not dominate the ball. Miller likes to run off of screens and spot-up in order to get his points, this allowed rudy to be one of the primary ball-handlers. At least, that’s my take on the situation.
From what i’s seen post-allstar break, they seem to be getting along just fine. I don’t think the problem was ever personal. I just think Rudy had to get use to another scorere who has to have the ball in his hands in order to be effective.
Rudy wouldn’t have that problem in a Hawks uniform. If he wants to be the playmaker, he can. In pheonix, Joe was a spot up guy until nash goes to the bench for a breather, and joe would then take over the PG duties. Bibby also likes to spot up, and Rudy is a great finisher/ball handler. He can also shoot. The less attention paid to joe, the more effective he will be. In short, JJ+Rudy= Unstoppable Offense
wesleywhatwhat
May 18th, 2009
3:03 pm
interesting blog.
my 2 cents:
sign bibby at a 50% salary reduction. play bibby 20-24 minutes. play acie law or find a suitable replacement to play major minutes as a backup. i like jarett jack’s game a lot.
trade williams for marc gasol. nothing against williams, but we need a battler down low.
finding the right guy to come in as the new coach would help but may not be necessary for the hawks to be a top 3 or 4 seed in the east.
doc
May 18th, 2009
3:09 pm
astro, you are such a bully, dont go and throw reality in my face. i am going to go out and pump up my own contentiousness before i come back with any retorts as you seem to be playing under handed now. that is the only way to handle a blog bully.
now where can i go to practice? maybe the falcon blog now that mv7 is heading into freedom. heh heh
look out stro!
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
3:14 pm
Astro Joe, Thats pure Genuis right there lol!
Hoops
May 18th, 2009
3:32 pm
WE NEED A 1 MAN THAT CAN DEFEND AND A 5 MAN THAT CAN DEFEND AND REBOUND!!! Put Marvin, Josh Smith, and Bibby out there and see what you can get for them. I’ll bet we would be surprised @ the number of teams that would be willing to talk trades and draft picks! I believe we can get Sessions from the Bucs!
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
3:45 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjtmPxO_6rk
All I'm Saying Is...
May 18th, 2009
4:12 pm
Trade up and draft Hasheem Thabeet—he’s 7′ 3″—by offering Marvin Williams and Acie Law.
The Truth
May 18th, 2009
4:24 pm
The Rudy Gay senario sounds interested but will no doubt require a trade and maybe a draft pick since he is currently under contract. As an alternative, I like Hidayet Turkoglu even better since he is available now assuming he doesn’t execise his last year option of 7.3M with Orlando. This guy can play 4 positions and can shoot from any angle. His natural position is SF. Also, PG Devin Harris is available now as a free agent. His last year deal with New Jersey was 7.8M. Maybe we could get both these guys for Mike Bibby contract. Now that would be an upgrade.
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
4:34 pm
Man, I don’t really want us to get rid of Marvin. He just had a great season. He was peaking right when he went down with that back injury. I just think he would be better off as a top reserve instead of starting. Of course, he CAN start if the situation calls for it.
Truth, I don’t think Harris is a free Agent. If he was we would’ve all been guessing how much money sund would have to throw at him in order to get him to come here.
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
4:35 pm
I believe “Your comment is awaiting moderation” is the blog with link equivalent of AA. We put your words in a holding pattern until someone deemed worthy says your words are allowed to play with others.
For all this Rudy Gay talk, isn’t he the SF version of Josh? He does better with 3 pt shots, but he rebounds a bit less and has slightly lower stats across the board (except for points.)
A point forward would allow us to have a PG that was more of a shooter, but the addition of Gay does not address the primary concerns of defense on PGs in the lane (i.e. a center)
I realize Gay is talented, but I don’t know that he is a defensive upgrade on Marvin when we have to go up against LeBron, Paul Pierce & Hedu Turkoglu. In our current situation Marvin is better able to switch on a PF with the similarly sized 3,4,5 positions we have.
BWAF
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
4:37 pm
doc, the Falcons blog gets a lot of heat (and they deserve it, especially when you know who is discussed). But DOB’s blog has a fair share of cynics as well. That blog seems like it is full of angry baseball fans who only know about the 14 years of winning and don’t recall the days of Roland Office, Biff Pocoroba and Gary Matthews knocking his helmet off his head as he rounded first base. Go over there and suggest that Hanson should spend the entire year in AAA and that should get you more than ready to handle my velvet boxing gloves. HA!
darrell starks
May 18th, 2009
4:40 pm
Ariose rudy gay remind me of a young ICE MAN george gervin if im the hawks i would trade marvin this year 1st and next year 1st for him.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Truth
May 18th, 2009
4:44 pm
Ariose
I agree about Marvin, I like him too. He has more up side for sure. But Hidayet Turkoglu, you don’t pass up. This guy is a 4-person package in one. Maybe him and Marvin can coexist.
Regarding Harris; here is where I saw the link:
[http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_jersey.htm]
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
4:49 pm
Manny, I agree. Gay is a cross between Marvin and Josh. While he may be a perfect fit with Horford (more aggressive than Marvin and a better shooter than Smith), I don’t see pairing him with either Smith nor Marvin.
Ariose, I agree. And I would also add that another reason that I would personally keep Marvin is because on the uncertainty the Joe will return. If Joe were to ditch us in 2010-11, I think we would be in much better shape with Marvin on the squad. I’m not saying that he is a bonafide #1 option but I do think that without Joe, he could easily become a “solid #2″ type player with enough touches and the demand by his coach to score. Right now, he’s too willing to defer, mostly because he is such a good teammate. But I think that in time, he will learn to become a little more selfish and will become a consistent 17+ scorer in this league.
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
4:59 pm
Let’s call this the A cup post…aka underdevelopment.
Let me start by reiterating that I think Woody is a good person, but that has little to do with being a good coach.
Johnny Storm…Flame on!
Woody’s challenge with the lack of development of players is more than playing time. When Royal Ivey was here, he started, but would you say Woody was developing him?
When Boris Diaw was here, he seemed to be the round peg in the square hole dog house. He got to Phoenix and they found a round hole for him that he continues to flourish with in Charlotte.
Woody admitted that he did not develop AC while he was chasing the playoffs last season. Think about who Woody yells at in public…not Joe, not any of the starters–not even Josh usually. AC seems to be a whipping post.
Let’s go farther…when Shelden was here, many of you seemed to think Solo had more potential. Shelden goes away. Solo comes back bigger and stronger this season after working AWAY from the Hawks summer team. Seems like he is ready for something big in early November. By the playoffs, we are wondering who is that guy?
After Chills departed, he said Woody would never start him…even when Marvin was hurt, Chills was the bench guy. If I always see you as a dog, I’ll treat you as a dog…even if you are in reality a cat
I’ll let Ariose do the heavy lifting for Salim, but it suffices to say that Salim’s rookie year stats were better than AC’s. Woody seemed to suck the life out of both.
Did he develop Al or did Al’s basketball IQ drive his defensive steadiness? Offensively, he becomes more offensive over time. Not saying he cannot develop a post game, but it’s not gotten any better while Woody’s been his coach.
Does Mario refuse to shoot 100s of jumpers in the summer or has his road to 5.8 sec of playing time been defense without regard for developing any kind of outside shot? Even Magic Johnson learned to make a palm ball set shot from the outside. Why can’t Mario learn on of those? I don’t want him to shot when covered, just when he is wide open.
There were no draft picks last summer. That means there was extra time to develop the young talent. That extra focus really showed up in the development of who this year? Please let me know because I missed that developmental focus
Woody is a nice guy, but I don’t see the team playing to its strengths. If you want a comparison of how people can be developed, look at Portland or Houston. Portland is young, but they seem to keep growing talent. I know Nick Batum was high on all of your lists. They had injuries early and found a way to get something out of him. Steve Blake was never the prized player at Maryland, but he seems to have developed enough that they moved the PG we want (Jack) to Indy last year.
Houston lost their top 2 players and their backup center. They also traded away their starting PG in February. Our equivalent might be losing Joe, Josh & Zaza, then trading Bibby and giving the team to AC with his backup as a 2nd year guy that we picked up at the trade deadline. Sure they lost to the Lakers, but they also beat them handily TWO times in the playoffs using a guy that could not make our team (Von Wafer). When Al & Marvin could not play in Miami we looked quite bad.
The development piece is lacking. If you have seen something that I missed, please share.
Flame off!
BWAF
The Truth
May 18th, 2009
5:26 pm
I’m trying to think, is there any other player beside Diaw that is flourishing in the NBA that Woody let go? I’m certainly not defending Woody but he may be more weaker at evaluating talent then developing it. In other words, his draft selections may be the real story here assuming he had major involvments with BK. If the draft selections were all BK fault, than Woody will argure that he had little to work with but I doubt it. I wish we had more insight into how management decided our past draft picks. Than we would know how much was BK fault and how much was Woody fault.
Samuel
May 18th, 2009
5:55 pm
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/178103-success-in-back-to-back-seasons-leaves-the-atlanta-hawks-at-crossroads/show_full
Success In Back To Back Seasons Leaves The Atlanta Hawks at Crossroads
Last year the Atlanta Hawks surprised the league and took the eventual champion Boston Celtics to game seven of their first round playoff matchup.
This year expectations were higher and the Hawks again rose to the occasion by finishing fourth in the Eastern Conference, securing home court advantage in their first round playoff series and defeating the Miami Heat and superstar Dwayne Wade.
Their second round match against LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers ended in a sweep, as the 08′-09′ season ended in disappointing fashion. Injuries to starters Marvin Williams and Al Horford left an already over matched Hawks team easy prey for a hungry Cleveland team playing at its peak.
The Hawks have gone from laughing stock of the NBA to surprise Cinderella to now firmly among the second tier playoff teams vying to crack the elite group. This summer the Hawks have 8 out of 15 players who are Free agents and face difficult decisions that could determine their status for the next few years.
Here is a look at some of the options General manager Rick Sund has to ponder over within the next few weeks.
Mike Bibby came aboard about the midway point of the 07′-08′ season and the Hawks immediately transformed from a team with a boatload of young talent to a team finally able to translate that talent into victories. Mike Bibby provides leadership and shot making ability that the Hawks haven’t had. Consequently, they run the risk of not only not improving but actually falling back if they lose Bibby.
The dilemma with Bibby is the fact that he is a Free Agent who made just under 15 million this year and 80 million over the past seven years. The Hawks are banking on the fact that Bibby has made his money and realize that he will have to take a significant pay cut.
Bibby has stated numerous times that he loves the Atlanta area and the freedom that he has to run the team under head coach Mike Woodson. If the Hawks can sign Bibby for 7-8 million dollars they should jump on it. Joe Johnson will be a free agent next year and has stated publicly on numerous occasions how he enjoys playing along side Mike Bibby. If the Hawks let Bibby go they also risk of losing Joe Johnson to free agency next year.
Last year’s number one draft choice Acie Law has shown flashes of talent but is inconsistent, injury prone and hasn’t developed a consistent jump shot. The Hawks should look to move Law to more of an up tempo team while he still has trade value.
Marvin Williams is coming off his best season as a pro. He is a restricted free agent with loads of talent but disappointed the Hawks fans with yet another injury during this year’s playoff run. The Hawks have numerous players who are the same size and similar skill sets so Williams figures to be the odd man out.
This former number one draft pick should be able to increase his salary of four point five million dollars per year and would make a fine addition to a team in need of youth and all around play making ability at the small forward position. The Hawks best bet is probably to work out a sign and trade with another team such as Portland who has an abundance of big men and back up point guards.
Other options would be to just let Williams go, use the money saved along with the Bibby pay cut and acquire a quality veteran big man such as a Rasheed Wallace. That would allow the Hawks to move Al Horford to his natural position of Power Forward and Josh Smith to small forward on defense. Wallace can shoot the perimeter shot so Josh Smith can still work on the blocks on offense along with Horford. The Hawks would also become better able to defend bigger teams with the addition of Wallace.
ZaZa Pachulia really came into his own as a quality rebounder and low post scorer who gives the Hawks much needed energy off the bench at the Center and power forward position. The Hawks must resign Puchulia who is a unrestricted free agent. They figure to have competition for their valuable big man but should be able to resign him for a slight pay raise. ZaZa has now accepted his role as a back up center in the NBA so he probably would rather stay put in Atlanta.
Flip Murray was a major steal of the season in the NBA. The Hawks signed him for the league minimum but will no doubt have to give him a sizable pay raise in order to keep him. Murray gives the Hawks a much needed scorer who can play either guard position and who at times carried the Hawks this season during scoring droughts by Joe Johnson and Mike Bibby.
Other free agents include: Solomon Jones, James Gardner, Othello Hunter and Mario West. These guys are all replaceable.
Speedy Claxton is a seldom used point guard and hold over from the Billy Knight era. Claxton has been injured his entire career in Atlanta and his 6 million dollar a year contract is due to expire next year. Hopefully the Hawks can move this contract for a quality big man or point guard this summer, buy him out or just let his contract expire after next season.
This summer the Hawks can go in a variety of directions. Do they want to stand pat and resign the guys they have minus Williams and possibly Law or shake up things and try to move up into the top three in the East and avoid Cleveland in the second round of the playoffs? To accomplish the latter, they would have to move a big name such as Joe Johnson or Josh Smith.
However, with the Celtics aging and LeBron becoming a free agent next year, the Hawks would be better served opting for the former and solidifying their position as a solid #4 team and possibly sneaking into the top three with an addition of a big man who can score and play defense.
O'brien
May 18th, 2009
6:05 pm
Can we honestly say that Woody has helped anybody’s game? Josh is who he is (5 years later), Marvin worked on his 3 point range, JJ is JJ, Bibby is Bibby. Mario has been here 2 years, and all he does is play defense. I think Woody is a poor evaluator AND poor developer.
There are lots of options out there, so Sund will have choices if the ASG is willing to spend money. And thats why I would prefer not resigning Bibby (especially if he is going to cost $8 million), because that $8 mill could go a long way. (One good thing about Hedu is he also handles the ball, so that would take some pressure off JJ).
I think Marvin would be great off the bench, because he woouldnt defer so much. However, I still think if we resign Flip, he needs to not be the ball hog that he is, improve his shot selection, and cut down on his turnovers. But Woody never says anything to him so he does whatever he wants…
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
6:05 pm
I’ll give Woody a 100% pass on the selection of talent at this moment regardless of the level of involvement he had in personnel decisions. He doesn’t officially pick them or release them.
However, every summer, he admits to things he has not done. Every October, he talks about how it will be different. By Thanksgiving, those words are in the SUCKERS folder.
I understand that there may be some business decisions behind not playing Speedy not and Tony Delk a few years back. That makes a larger case for developing the other guys.
You have to do the best with what you have. It seems to me that others have gotten more out of Royal Ivey & Boris Diaw. The jury is out on Salim. We will give him a pass on Shelden. The other guys are still on the roster so it’s hard to assess how they will do under other coaching.
Even among vets, Woody did well with Lue, but did you see Anthony Johnson during the playoffs? He struggled here, but has done well (under different circumstances) in Orlando.
I don’t expect Woody to take the guys from the bottom of the bench and turn them into all stars, but I do expect him to find a way to get contributions from the middle of the roster. Find something that they do well and make it work within your scheme.
BWAF
The Truth
May 18th, 2009
6:35 pm
MannyT
Regarding Anthony Johnson for Orlando, If we had Dwight Howard on our team, Salim might have been an All-Star for the Hawks
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
6:57 pm
Manny, Diaw found his way after D’Antoni put him in the PF slot when Amare was injured. Let’s face it, there’s a pretty good chance that most coaches would not have put a 6′8″ cream-puff with above handle distribution skills at PF.
I’d also suggest that Woody is ultimately responsible for playing time distribution BUT NOT player development. I’m sure doc will remind us of how McMillan does it in Portland. But I think that is an exception. My guess is that Phil Jackson spends very little time with Bynum. KAJ is Bynum’s coach. We know that George Karl isn’t teaching JR Smith, they supposedly don’t talk. And does D. Howard give credit to his previous head coaches or does he talk about how Clifford Ray and Pat Ewing have helped him become the dominant center he has become? I don’t think that Woody needs to teach Josh how to shoot or Solo how to box out or Acie how to maintain healthy wrists, ankles, back or right eyebrow. What he does need to do is give those players on-court time to utlize the training that his assistants should be conducting with his young players.
One of my frequent rants of the past few years is why the Hawks don’t spend more money on their coaching staff to support their extremely young team. And that’s why I was so thrilled to see Mark Price added to the team of teachers for ths squad. And I was glad to see Marvin take advantage of that resource. I’d like to see Sund continue to make those staff additions that can provide the right foundation for our young guys. And then it is up to Woody to put the training into action on the court with playing time.
Now go share a bowl of popcorn with Ben Grmmm.
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
7:06 pm
The Hawks have numerous players who are the same size and similar skill sets so Williams figures to be the odd man out.
Samuel, who are these players on the Hawks roster who can create their own shot, drive and get to the free throw line, shoot the open jumper, bury the ball from behind the 3-point line and provide above average perimeter defense on the bigger/stronger SFs in the Eastern Conference at the tender age of 23? Somehow, I seemed to have lost those guys on our roster.
The Truth
May 18th, 2009
7:29 pm
I think that BK psyched us all in believing that he had a master plan when in fact he was just picking (what he thought) was the best available player regardless of our real needs. We really needed a PG, he picked Marvin (SF) because NC won a title, we really needed a big center he picked Sheldon 6′8″ a tweener center because Duke won a title and then he picked Al Horford to be a center, a 6″10″ PF because he won 2 titles. I can go on and on. Our problem is we have no one who can evaluate real talent based on our real needs. I hope Sund is the beginning of real change. Maybe I am just dreaming. We shall see.
glw
May 18th, 2009
7:43 pm
Not sure if anyone has talked about some scenarios, but I am very intrigued by adding a couple of guys. Rasheed ability to play outside is a plus and probalby would fit with JSmoove and Horford’s working the blocks. Another intriguing prospect I think would be Ron Artest, but purely from the Cleveland angle, where u want him for the playoffs and he would give Josh and HOrford that added chip on their shoulders and I think take some of the pressure off of Joe.
Another idea which might be far-fetched is Tyson Chandler. New Orleans has already tried to give him away once. Maybe he can be had on the cheap? I have heard rumors all year that the Hornets are financially strapped and would like to cut payroll. While I am sure they would love to swap and get Horford and pay his 7 million less than they do Chandler, would it be possible to pry him away from the cost cutting Hornets for something like say Mo Evans, rights to Josh Childress and draft picks/and or other considerations? That would be an imposing frontline, give us the rebounder and interior defesive presence we need?
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
7:45 pm
Melvin,
Remember what I said about Memphis needing a motive to move Rudy Gay? Well you just provided it, if the rumor is true. Of course, we’ve seen this all happen before. My guess is that they’ll make up and be friends when the numbers get crunched to the satisfaction of both sides.
Meanwhile, the guy is talented. Which automatically means that people will find ways and reasons why he wouldn’t fit here. Heh…
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
8:02 pm
Astro Joe,
Acie Law’s development (or lack thereof) probably is at the peak of the dissatisfaction with Woody’s performance in that area. The truth of it is, Woody was doing a decent job with Acie early on in his first year. The kid was getting roughly 15 mpg or more at the time. The guys who played in front of him were AJ and Lue. Neither was the ideal starting veteran pg. Acie incurred injury a bit later, and that set him back. But what really set him back was the acquisition of Mike Bibby. Acie’s minutes automatically went down, and whether he played at all became an issue.
I can’t blame Woody for getting excited at Bibby’s arrival. What I do blame him for was all but forgetting Acie. He probably felt like he had more time to get Acie brought along once Bibby was there, because Bibby could play major minutes (and we really needed him to sometimes).
Suffice it to say the Bibby’s arrival meant a lesser need to develop Acie as quickly. When all you have is Lue and AJ, getting Acie ready, and seeing if he can do the job is paramount. After all, he was a lottery pick. But with a guy of Bibby’s caliber, Acie’s development hit the back burner and got stuck there. It’s the way Woody likes to do things. The only reason why it aggravates me now is because we are not guaranteed to keep either Bibby or Flip. Acie is not ready, and we know why (injuries, playing time, his own performance issues). The way he played in the preaseason, he looked like he was ready to be thrown to the wolves.
But it was never going to happen with Bibby there, and still able to perform at the level that he has. Can’t blame Woody for keeping Bibby in the starting lineup as that only made sense. But not giving him a breather by mixing Law in for a paltry 15 mpg (or more) when he might be the only pg you have under contract (who knows THIS system) at season’s end? Just 15 mpg! Couldn’t have been that impossible, could it? I know, I know, Flip was available too. But why not let Flip be and do what he is: a tough, undersized 2-guard who is best suited to find a way to score, not run the team.
Salim Stoudamire might have just been a bad fit here. That, and he didn’t respond well to adversity, and didn’t play under control. Having said that, I imagine he and Woody didn’t get along too well.
Woody definitely gets a pass on Sheldon Williams. One of our worst picks of the recent era, for a variety of reasons. His inability to get anything done in Sacramento absolved Woody of anything and everything, in my opinion. Royal Ivey was what he was. I thought Woody used him well, but again….the guy would have never sniffed the hardwood if it hadn’t been for the low caliber players in front of him. Woody has done well with guys who came in with ready-made talent. Anything different, and it’s been a struggle.
I see more potential and ability in Solo than he seems to get credit for. He played well in last year’s playoffs. He played well to start the season. Suddenly, his minutes dropped off the face of the earth. Strange. Still haven’t figured that one out.
But yeah…it’s Law that has heads scratching. Can’t say anything about Hunter, Gardner, or West. West is rough around the edges, and the other two weren’t even drafted.
And I can’t blame anybody for Randolph Morris except Sund. What a joke…
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
8:10 pm
Actually, I can’t disagree with anything in MannyT’s 4:59 post. I should have read that before posting my own crap….
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
8:18 pm
” Let’s face it, there’s a pretty good chance that most coaches would not have put a 6′8″ cream-puff with above handle distribution skills at PF.”
I’d agree, except for a few things. One, it turns out that Diaw can rebound and defend just fine. So the cream-puff thing only really fits with those who want to make it fit. Two, most coaches wouldn’t put Diaw there because that’s not the type of system they run. Guys like D’Antoni, Ivaroni, and ironically Larry Brown would do it because they have that kind of vision. Interesting. Larry Brown does, but Woody wouldn’t. Huh. Third, others of similar talent come to mind. Hedo Turkoglu plays opposite Rashard Lewis. Both guys have a decent handle, and neither is a PF. Lamar Odom is the quintessential example, if you ask me. But it’s true that there aren’t many.
I think the point is that guys with that kind of handle are more valuable passing out of and through the post area, than they are from teh SF or SG spots.
Samuel
May 18th, 2009
8:22 pm
Joe,
You are right in that Marvin is our only 6′9 guy who can shoot from the outside and get to the line. I actually would love to keep him here but the “experts” are saying we have to move someone. If we do, then he seems like the one who will go. His prone to injury is really leaving me somewhat dissappointed each year.
If one of our top 5 has to go, who do you think it should be? Would you gamble and let Bibby walk in order to keep Marvin?
I actually would like to keep the entire team in tact one more year and see how this 2010 free agency stuff will pan out. That seems to be the “Y2K” on Basketball.
Hms
May 18th, 2009
8:28 pm
I wonder what simpleton wrote the LIFE UNDER THE BLEACHERS article. It’s missing about 20 freaking commas. It’s THOMAS Gardner, not James Gardner. Marvin Williams was not picked number one. He was picked number two. Who wrote this, the retard in the movie SLINGBLADE?
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
8:35 pm
I don’t think the 2010 free agent “storm” is going to be all that they’re making it out to be. There might be a big move or two, but not mass hysteria.
Then again, we see what happened when Pau Gasol got traded to L.A. That caused quite the chain reaction. Let’s just say that every move afterwards was dumb as hell.
Still, what holds the most danger for us, I think, is not getting Joe to stick around. And getting it done early. Why? Because he could very quickly become some team’s “consolation prize” when they miss on Lebron, Wade, or somebody else. Either convince him to stay and sign a nice extension, or trade him for the best value fit you can get.
But if we get him to stay, I still say we have to do one of two things: change the offensive system so that others can flourish, and help bear the scoring load….or get somebody else in here than represents a very solid scoring threat by themselves. Option 2 works better if that person is a frontcourt player. Option 2 also probably requires moving a starter…
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
8:35 pm
Hms,
My guess is that it was the guy who posted it. Feel stupid now?
Melvin
May 18th, 2009
8:54 pm
Samuel,
I think whomever wrote that article doesn’t know the inside scoop on the ASG organization nor did they do an accurate job scouting the Hawks team. As AstroJoe pointed out, where are all these guys that has the same skill sets. Maybe similiar in size (Joe, Marvin, AL and Josh) but they all have different skill sets.
Astro,
From now on, I will refer to you as WPBG (Woody’s Personal Body Guard). Can’t nobody defend that guy like you can. I know Woody is/would be impress will some of perspective that you used to support his decision making or lack there of.Woody couldn’t dream of some of the explanations you comeup with. If that guy come up with the swine flu you would know exactly who and when he came in contact with the infected person. I think Woody should be banned from doing interveiws and allow his spokeperson AstroJoe to speak for him. I guarantee we would hear more than we didn’t play good defense tonite….
WAF
doc
May 18th, 2009
8:57 pm
though i agree with samuel that one more year with the team intact is preferred and bringing in one more player would be ideal, i doubt it is going to happen as the basg do not control much this time around. we have no idea what they are willing to afford either. if i could i would add a big that is experienced willing to play a role even sheed if willing, add chills to that, give josh and al 15 footers and i would take my chances for getting woody higher in the coy ranks.
again, it is, that it aint going to happen. so with three to consider being marvin, acie and bibby and keeping one i would pick bibby in a heart beat. why? you know he will play injured. the other two wont and we saw it demonstrated when bibby got here and repeatedly that the other two wouldnt.
a lot of potential pawns to fall this summer.
The Truth
May 18th, 2009
8:58 pm
Ray
I really don’t think JJ is going to have a problem resigning with the Hawks. The Hawks offer JJ something he may not find anywhere else. He can be showcased here and be “The Man” on this team. Since he is preceived to be the second or third option on other teams, he would take a back seat if he left. Remember, aside from the money, his main reasons for coming to ATL was ego driven.
Ray Jr.
May 18th, 2009
9:00 pm
First I would like to say good year HAWKS you guys gave your all.
Now own to whats needs to be done: I say the team we have is good we just need to address some key areas. Bring in a true center, another shooter and a vet for more leadership. Also use more of our bench let them grow.
Now for the coach, I would like to say woody is a good coach and he really has done a decent job with this team, but now I believe he has taken this team as far as he can. TIME FOR T CHANGE…..
I say bring in Avery Johnson, I believe he could really light a fire under this young team.
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
9:01 pm
Ray, Joe’s agent would be a fool to try to negotiate an extension a few weeks after his client’s post-season performance.
Samuel
May 18th, 2009
9:08 pm
True. That was definately a “my bad”. I’m an amature I must admitt. I can’t hold a candle to you “Fire Woody” guys.
Melvin,
I thought I was the #1 Woody Spokesman. Darn, I’ve lost ground.
Hms,
A guy by the name of Faulkner would write page and page of story without ever sticking in an apostrophe or as much as a crooked comma and he is today counted one of the greatest writers who ever split an infinitive.
Melvin
May 18th, 2009
9:14 pm
Astro,
You may get your wish…
It seems clear now it’s an either/or with Hinrich and Ben Gordon, and I think the Bulls may make a bid to re-sign Gordon. Here’s one scenario: There’s a question in Atlanta whether they bring back point guard Mike Bibby. I personally doubt it the way Bibby slumped as the playoffs went on.
Atlanta can get enough under the salary cap to absorb most of Hinrich’s contract. If that contract comes off the books, the Bulls should be in good position to extend a fair offer to Gordon—should they want to, of course, which I really don’t know.
Samuel
May 18th, 2009
9:14 pm
Yea Truth,
But I think JJ is thinking twice about wanting to be “The Man”. I believe he would be happy to take his Millions and be the “semi-man” after this year.
Careful what you wish for.
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
9:14 pm
Melvin, I watched Minority Report last night and I was inspired to continue to swim upstream and defend Woody where appropriate. Like I said, I struggle to defend not playng Acie (and I defended the Acie draft pick). I don’t get a chance to attend too many games in person, but I had good seats for Acie’s rookie debut against Dallas and I became an immediate fan. But dude seems to be approaching Speedy fragility. And I really wonder if he has lost some of his teammates (we know that Speedy has lost his teammates due to his inability to shoulder the load). But yeah, I’ll jump on here and will be Joe Cochran (Johnny’s incompetent cousin) every now and then. And chances are, when we eventually replace Woody, I’ll likely defend the new guy too.
Hoops
May 18th, 2009
9:22 pm
Big Ray,
If we are to improve the Hawks and have a chance to move up and compete in the top 3 of the East, we have to move a starter and maybe two.
Look, Marvin is stiff. Watch him walk. He is always going to be a threat for a back injury. That’s just how he is built. I like him, but I think we could move him and get better. We could trade Marvin to the Bucs and get Sessions and a draft pick. That would give us a PG that has a bright future and can defend. Jarrett Jack is a FA. Mike Conley has 1 year left and so does Russell Westbrook. These players are gettable with Marvin and AC.
I like Josh Smith, but he is a tweener. He cannot shoot outside and struggles with the big PF inside. I know we could get a quality 5 for him. M. Gasol or trade up and get Thabeet. Don’t forget that Rasheed is a FA.
The Hawks have many options! Make a move!
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
9:26 pm
Melvn, need to check with Manny or niremetal or another of our resident financial experts about what it would take for the Hawks to get under the cap to absorb almost $9M. I’m guessing that we would need to renounce the rights to both Childress and Marvin. I wouldn’t do that for Hinrich.
Melvin
May 18th, 2009
9:28 pm
Looks like Josh is on somebody’s radar…
Cuban’s ambitious target, in his words, is a “young perennial All-Star.” That probably translates to pressing Toronto about its willingness to part with Dallas native Chris Bosh, but since the Raps continue to say they have no interest in moving Bosh, I could see the Mavs’ sniffing around Atlanta to see if Josh Smith will be made available.
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
9:28 pm
….All i’m sayin’ is, If i’m sund, I would gamble and take a one year flier out on Rasheed. If, at the least, all he does is play defense and use his length to battle those damn 7+ footers that EVERYONE seems to have but us, I think we can possibly get to the ECF…..that’s if everyone stays healthy through the post-season.
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
9:33 pm
…..and if we meet up with the magic in the playoffs, we won’t have to double cause’ Rasheed has Howard’s number for some reason lol.
Ariose
May 18th, 2009
9:34 pm
Enter your comments here
Melvin
May 18th, 2009
9:38 pm
Astro,
I read somewhere that we have 40 million allocated for next year salary cap before signing or resigning any FA. Fact remains that Sund has alot options this summer between salary cap flexibility, draft picks, restricted FA’s (Marvin and Josh C), rights to Andersen and the Turkey pg and Speedy’s expiring contract. If he can’t get the job this summer with all those options then it’s time to find a new GM (yes, even after 1 season of work). Arguably, he has more options in one season then BK had during his entire tenure. Get it done Sund.
doc
May 18th, 2009
9:44 pm
yeah, samuel you might not have the commas but at least you got the capitals.
samuel you need to come around more often. you and aj can be the tag team known as woody’s woodpeckers. right now you only qualify for the terse clyde counterpart at your rate of contribution here. aj has said a lot while you were gone guy.
aj gets the cape, defender of the coach, until we go south then he will do his anakin reprise. we know what true heart lies within joe.
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
9:47 pm
Melvin, Dallas doesn’t have much to offer for Smith. Ownership may bite if they offer Stakehouse’s partially guaranteed contract (then he gets cut and they save money). Or, they could offer Josh Howard, which would lead to a S&T with Marvin. Personally, I’d keep Marvin over Josh Howard. I don’t see Howard having as much success against guys like LeBron, Pierce, Hedu and Beasley. Again, I don’t really like what Dallas has to offer.
The Truth
May 18th, 2009
9:52 pm
Samuel
That may be true about JJ not wanting to be the “The Man” anymore. If that is his thinking, than maybe we should part ways with him anyway; No guts no glory. We need our star player to have some “Backbone”
O'brien
May 18th, 2009
9:54 pm
Ariose, I would be okay with Rasheed for 2 years, and he says he wants $8 million. Maybe we can get him for a little cheaper (maybe him and Woody are still cool from when Woody was an assistant). Sign him, and bring Al off the bench as our backup PF/backup center. When Rasheed’s 2 years are up, then we will know if Al will be an allstar PF, and then we can decide to trade him or trade Josh (or maybe Josh will have the handles and range to play some SF).
Hms
May 18th, 2009
10:08 pm
Samuel, did Faulkner write for UNDER THE BLEACHERS too? I’m an amature I admitt. Funny sentence because the words amature and admitt sure prove that you are telling the truth. I didn’t know you wrote the article though. Maybe you will become famous as Faulkner, whoever that is. If he writes like that no wonder I didn’t read him.
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
10:11 pm
Melvin, I like this site for salary info.
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/hawks.jsp
Like I said, we’d have to decide to walk away from Marvin and Childress to get down to $41M. That would be a bold, bold move by Sund. He’d essentially be re-making a 47-win team, with only Horford, Smith & Joe remaining from the core.
Samuel
May 18th, 2009
10:13 pm
Doctor,
I’ll do my best. School’s almost out. Then i’ll be able to devote more time to the blog. I actually coached tennis this year after a couple of years off.
This Summer i’ll post around 6:30 then hit the water to catch them Bass at dawn. Shower and take my mid-day nap. Blog a little more then get back in the water to catch that “top water” action at dust. The blue gill and shell crackers (we call em Strawberries in Mississippi) should be beading pretty soon. I got my crickets ready. It don’t get no better.
I’m also getting my little queen ready for Nationals this year. Big Ray, we’re comming to Savannah this year to defend our crown in June.
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
10:21 pm
Melvin,
No, what you would hear would be “we didn’t play with energy…” instead.
Couldn’t resist.
Something tells me Astro Joe would make a much better publicist than body guard. Just a hunch. As long as the pay is equal, right? Heh heh heh.
Astro Joe,
Yeah, his agent WOULD be a fool to do it this soon. I’m talking about not trying to wait until the last minute, is all. While a new contract won’t be an immediate focus, Joe is still an all-star. Still, some decisions have to be made.
I wouldn’t doubt that Acie has lost the confidence of some of his teammates. Who knows if he ever had it? I don’t know what to say about his injuries. And as you may have noticed, I don’t blame Woody for not playing him as much when he has two vets that can score, as options. But I can’t get away from the idea that both guys COULD in all reality, be gone after the season. I’m not talking likelihood, just possibility. And that leaves Law.
Having said that, I don’t think Law is here for the duration, and I’m not married to the idea of keeping him anyway. Asset management can never be emphasized enough. Trade him now if he’s not going to be utilized, and while teams stilll look at him as somebody with potential. Let him sink to Stoudamire’s level and he’ll not be of much worth. Besides, there are other likeable options out there.
What we need more than anything else at the moment is one that will produce and be given adequate playing time. Or vice versa.
Samuel
May 18th, 2009
10:22 pm
Hms,
I really should be better at spelling and grammer. My sixth grade English teacher must be rolling over in her grave. I really should spell check and check my grammer like you guys but i’m kinda lazy.
Besides, you don’t have to be able to spell to be a coach. Just roll out the dodge balls and watch the fun.
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
10:28 pm
Hms,
Dude. Don’t be a blog heckler. What are you, a disgruntled Boston fan? Or are you Adam Wojnaroski in disguise. I can’t stand you…er, that guy.
Samuel,
Best of luck with your girl. I’m sure she will shine as brightly as ever. As long as she has fun and does her best, it will be all good. Congratulations on her and your achievements!
The Truth,
JJ may or may not want to be “the man” anymore, but he sure still wants the ball.
I wonder. Does Rasheed Wallace want to come to the ATL? His skill set matches what we would need if we ended up with a frontcourt that had Al at the 4, and Josh at the 3.
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
10:32 pm
LOL….
Sam,
Was that really you at 10:22? Heh heh heh…by the way, where will the gymnastics competition be held in the SAV, or did they tell you yet? I assume it will be in the Civic Center. Just a guess.
Astro Joe,
I don’t really want anything out of Dallas not named Brandon Bass. He’s the Leon Powe of the West.
doc
May 18th, 2009
10:36 pm
samuel, yes life is good, nothing better than sitting over an active blue gill bed right around a good soft rain. just frying them up with some hush puppies, maybe, or even while sipping scotch while they cook and washing them down with a cold brew.
samuel, i know this will please you to no end, i understood every word in your article, enjoyed it and agreed with most of it. heh heh
while at the site, i did take time to check out your predictions for the western conference first round though. i doubt you took it to vegas seeing how you have to truck a rising gymnastic superstar around to gyms. my last is leaving high school this spring, fella it goes fast. enjoy!
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
10:36 pm
Ariose,
Seems to me that we’ve had 7-footers before. We just always get the wrong kind. Priest Lauderdale…ugh…. ‘Sheed could do some good here. I’ve been kinda sour on him, but that’s because he can put up better numbers. But I don’t blame him if he’s not motivated to play in Detroit. It’s funny. Since Larry Brown left, things went to crap up there. Flip had ‘em winning, but not contending with the same fervor. Ben Wallace has turned into a strong-armed nobody again. Just like he was in Washington. Dumars has made one bad move after another.
‘Sheed might actually want to come here. But like you say, a couple years is an ideal situation. Plug the gap, so to speak. Hmmmm.
doc
May 18th, 2009
10:37 pm
samuel, are shell crackers what we call them out of the ogeechee river as red bellies?
Samuel
May 18th, 2009
10:44 pm
Ray,
Unfortunately,
We have produced a “beast” in my house. It’s definately “no fun” if we don’t win or at least place in the top three. My little one has grown accustomed to winning. She went through a little slump on the “beam” this year and fell in three straight meets. Her strong all around game still pulled her through. She’s a work-a-holic at age 10. A coaches dream. We try to tell her that we are proud of her, no matter what but she really hates to lose.
Yall know how I feel about Sheed. I would love to see him in a Hawks uniform.
Astro Joe
May 18th, 2009
10:45 pm
OK, this will undoubtedly come across as hating but I won’t have any problems sleeping, so here it goes. So no one is concerned about the possible impact that Rasheed could have on Josh? After watching Josh complain after every foul or non-foul (and didn’t he get a tech in the last game or two of the Cavs series), is no one else worried about adding the ultra-emotional Rasheed to a highly-emotional Smith? One is combustible while the other is flammable. Is that the right combination?
Night all, my pillow is sweet talking me right now. Can’t r-e-s-i-s-t, zzzzzzz.
Samuel, I just registered for Bleacher Reports so that I can check you out more often. Come strong man, I only like to read strong material. Sekou & Hacks set the standard.
Samuel
May 18th, 2009
10:58 pm
http://www.theseap.com/wp-content/uploads/image/baitshop/fish/shellcracker.jpg
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
11:04 pm
Samuel,
Hey, self-motivated is the best kind. Like you said, a coach’s dream. Sounds like a terrific girl, and she will do well. Think you can get her to help Randolph Morris out? He needs help.
Astro Joe,
I hear what you’re saying, but I think ‘Sheed is past those days. He’s older now, and you know what? I think he has something almost nobody on this roster has: the ability to do what Josh Smith WANTS to do, and the testicular fortitude to not only get in Josh’s ear when he really needs it, but whoop his ass in practice. He can teach him how to be what he wants (and really what many of us want) Josh to be. Josh has never had that. And since ‘Sheed is an emotional player himself, he will understand all too well how Josh ticks.
I may be going out on a limb with this, but there is a very strong possibility that Rasheed Wallace could do more FOR Josh than anything else at this point. The kid is mostly flying blind, and Woody can’t teach him what he needs to know from anything other than a coach’s perspective. I think Josh needs a player’s perspective to help bridge that gap. I think he would need that no matter where he was playing, or for whom. Again, he’s never had that kind of veteran guidance.
To borrow a quote from Niremetal, ‘Sheed was the technical foul magnet for a while there but “he argued calls after the play, not while the ball was in play, like Josh does. When the ball was in play, you were hard-pressed to find a more focused person on the court. He always sees the whole court, all the time.”
Admittedly, I’ve been a Rasheed detractor for some time now, annoyed with his lack of production vs. his talent curve. But the fact is, he has something we haven’t had in who knows how long, and I think he would be worth the money for more than just what he can do in individual statistical categories. He’ll grab Josh by the ear. He’ll add toughness. He can teach Horford some stuff, too. Imagine having him to go up against in practice, instead of just Zaza, Solo, and RandMo. Sheed would make you work for everything. Rebounds. Everything.
Having said that, and believing every word I just typed, I know I could be dead wrong. Maybe we’ll get the chance to see. Maybe not.
Big Ray
May 18th, 2009
11:05 pm
Joe,
Samuel has been writing for Bleacher Report for a while. Might have been longer than us 1 and a half hacks (I can’t seem to find the other hack these days).
doc
May 18th, 2009
11:20 pm
hmmm close:
http://www.gafishfinder.com/view_fish_type.php?fish_id=19
yeah ray and think how sheed can show josh the way to stroke a three, that ought to make the coy woody contingent real happy.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 18th, 2009
11:45 pm
I think Josh may be able to relate to Rasheed Wallace since both are similar in a lot of ways, from the versatility matched by few others, to the great athleticism, to the tendency to fly off the handle. The one thing that worries me is that Sheed never quite put together his whole package of skills to become that star many said he’s capable of being, largely because he has always been, and continues to be, a big man enamored with his outside shot. That’s exactly the future we don’t want to see out of Josh Smith.
I would like the Hawks to bring in a veteran big man who can get Josh Smith to realize his future is in the low post, and get him to channel his emotions in a positive way on the court. I doubt Sheed is the ideal guy to do that. In fact, looking at the Pistons’ roster, Antonio McDyess would come a lot closer to fitting that bill.
MannyT
May 18th, 2009
11:54 pm
Astro to say Woody is not responsible for player development, but to then put it on the assistant coaches that work for him is akin to trying to throw some guy that reports to you under the bus to your customers while you try to be the teflon don.
Unless I missed the Dan Snyder/Jerre Jones move, the assistants came after Woody was in place. Maybe he needs to figure out how to manage his direct reports if he isn’t getting what he wants out of them. He cannot fire Josh, but I think he can ditch assistant coaches.
Pulling an example from your Star Wars side… Imagine this chat with Yoda. I doubt he would give me the screw up, I did not. Young Anakin was just an *&(#%!. Blame me, should you not…even though he did bring down the Jedi. hmmm I blame Obi Wan!!
I think the Jedi Master would give more of a humble, For Anakin, responsible we all are. His salvation, too is ours.
A long while back I put coaches into 3 buckets.
The guys that suck and will get fired regardless.
The guys that are average will do what most other coaches do. They often get fired once the locals lose interest in the one or two things they do well.
The guys that are good and great get more out of the less than stellar players.
Woody is an average NBA coach. Unlike most of the world, I can see that as a wonderful thing. Like an average NBA player is still a millionaire, an average NBA coach is a fine level of achievement. Now if you want more for the Hawks, he will have to learn some new tricks or we will grow tired of the old ones and at some point he suffers the fate of most NBA coaches–fired.
I am not saying fire Woody now. I am saying that the things he doesn’t do well now are the same things he did not do well last season, and the season before, and so on…and so on.
One of those areas of development is getting more out of the middle of his bench. I am not asking him to make RandMo into Olajuwon. I am saying that he needs to do more with players 8, 9, 10 and maybe 11.
I am confident that Mr. Fantastic would agree. Now if I can only get some Sue Storm action
BWAF
Ariose
May 19th, 2009
12:00 am
Poop, now thats just not true. When sheed was in Portland, there was not another Big Man better than him, no not even Timmy. Sheed used to lay it all on the line and play with so much heart and intensity. This postseason he had nagging injuries, but he toned it down on the techs, probably beczuse he realized that he finally needed to be a claming influence with Chuncey gone and a bad role-model in A.I showing up.
I think the drive and passion of our players and their will to win will re-invogorate ‘Sheed and make him care again….you KNOW woody WILL BENCH HIM if he shows out too much and is Lazy on the court, belevive it. So they may help each other. We got a motivated Sheed, and woody looks good ofr once lol.
And J-Smoove only had two techs on the year so how is he like sheed? When Zaza get’s T’s for being stupid don’t you see all the guys riding him telling him that was stupid(well, thats cause’ zaza is usually the team scapegoat) bit they know how topolice themselves. Remeber thet team meeting the had in the Heat series’. Smoove may look at the ref while no watching his man when he’s really frustrated but the man NEVER goes too far like ‘Sheed has in the past. I know because ‘Sheed used to be one of my favorite players and I watched him all the time(I hate laz Sheed though). Y’all are not being fair to smoovein that regard…
MannyT
May 19th, 2009
12:02 am
I am a fan of Hawk for a game (Sheed), but I really think that is a bet your job move for Woody. If Sheed/Obi-Wan turns Josh to the good, great things can happen, but if we get Anakin Josh, you may as well put him on the next commercial/in game ad as the Face of Destruction and get him one of those fine black helmets with the iron lung in it.
The question is how fast are his skills falling off and how much of a distraction will it be for him that he can no longer do some of the things he used to do with ease.
May the force be with you, O B WAF
Big Ray
May 19th, 2009
3:48 am
WTF??
One minute, we’re saying how Josh Smith would be an all-star if he just acquires a reliable jumper.
Next minute, we don’t want him learning to shoot from the outside (let alone 3-point land) because we’re afraid he’ll do it all the time.
WTF!!
I don’t see Josh patterning his game after ‘Sheed’s game of the last couple years. Young fella likes to dunk and what not WAY too much for that. I see him mixing it up and becoming an offensive headache for opposing teams. Yes he does need badly to hone and rely on his ability to score inside. But for crying out loud, improvement and versatility should never be frowned upon.
Rasheed Wallace knows how to score inside. He just doesn’t do it all the time. Like Ariose said, he was an absolute terror in Portland. His role changed somewhat in Detroit. But the ability has always been there. Unlike Smith though, ‘Sheed has always been able to hit that outside shot pretty well. Well enough to respect it. That’s all I want from Smith, and without it he becomes/remains a one dimensional player. Even when you’re that athletic, the better teams and coaches learn ways to stop you, or at least slow you down. And if all you have is one way of scoring, they’ll find a way to plug it.
Not only that, but there’s always this talk of bringing in a rugged, low post-dwelling center, and moving Josh to the 3. If that happens, we’re going to need better shooting from Josh anyway. He won’t have to provide a lot of perimeter scoring, but he has to have the ability to get some done when necessary.
Do I want to see Josh doing what ‘Sheed has been doing the last couple years? No. But I don’t think he’ll resort to that either. He doesn’t now, and he won’t later.
Big Ray
May 19th, 2009
3:49 am
MannyT,
Great points, and excellent Star Wars references!
Big Ray
May 19th, 2009
3:53 am
I don’t think Rasheed is an ideal fit, either. But when was the last time “ideal” even factored into the equation around here? If we can do better, then we definitely should. If we can’t, I don’t think that’s a bad way to go.
McDyess is definitely not a bad addition. He may do more for Horford than he would Smith, but you never know. He’s a good example RIGHT NOW of what to do when you are somewhat limited athletically, but I remember the old McDyess…prior to the injury. He would go up 40 inches on you for the dunk on one play, and drain a 17-foot jumper on the next…
Big Ray
May 19th, 2009
4:46 am
From Sam Smith up in Chicago:
It seems clear now it’s an either/or with Hinrich and Ben Gordon, and I think the Bulls may make a bid to re-sign Gordon. Here’s one scenario: There’s a question in Atlanta whether they bring back point guard Mike Bibby. I personally doubt it the way Bibby slumped as the playoffs went on.
I’ve long thought the deal that made the most sense for both teams with Hinrich was with Portland. Their GM is a Kansas guy like Hinrich and Steve Blake would be an ideal and cheaper backup combo guard. But the talk is the Trail Blazers will sign the 76ers Andre Miller as a free agent. Then they’ll use their extra pieces, perhaps including Blake, to make a deal for a banger up front. Then the 76ers would need a point guard, and that could be where Bibby goes if the 76ers lose Miller, which seems likely as the free agent boycotted the team’s final meetings.
Of course, there’s also the doomsday possibility that no one comes as a free agent and you are stuck with the Ron Mercer option. There’s going to be lots of competition. The talk already has been Cleveland, which can get under, will make a bold push for Joe Johnson. Heck, the Knicks could offer ownership in the Rangers if they get desperate. What makes sense to us rarely makes sense to players. But then, Chicago is a major market, and that could be a heck of a team.
Don’t you just love rumors?
Samuel
May 19th, 2009
6:52 am
Yea Doc,
A sunfish. They don’t get quite as big as them strawberries but I think they fight a little harder, pound for pound. The meat is a little more tender too.
Astro Joe
May 19th, 2009
9:25 am
Manny, I understand, Woody manages assistants. So if assistants don’t get players developed, Woody should replace assistants, right? Do you do that during the season or after? We saw in the last off-season the addition of Jim Todd, Ty Hill and Mark Price (as a consultant). Woody is responsible for the development of the players, for free throw shooting, for turnovers, for defensive rotations, for moving screens, for poor foot work, for fast break opportunities, for points in the paint and a whole lot more. He is both responsible and accountable. But with all that said, I still can’t recall reading or hearing a quote where the young superstar credits his head coach for teaching him a fundamental basketball skill. When Michael Beasley or Derrick Rose give Spoelstra or Nel Negro credit for tirelessly working with them on their fundamental skills, give me a holler.
Astro Joe
May 19th, 2009
9:34 am
Rick Sund is doing his media tour this morning. I heard a portion of the 790 The Zone interview and then he was going to do 680 The Fan. I know that 790 usually posts their interviews on their website after the fact, so it will be interesting to hear the final product. He said that Woody is definitely coming back next season, that no one on the team is untouchable (but some are less likely to be traded), that the coaching staff must provide a report card on each player as part of the exit interview, that he liked what he saw from Acie prior to the injuries and he liked the 3-guard rotation (Bibby, Joe & Flip). For at least the portion that I heard, he refused to provide any “inside info” and was mostly spinning things in a positive direction. Maybe he loosened up later but he refused to discuss Woody’s areas for improvement and wouldn’t comment on Joe’s post-season performance (other than saying “I think he was hurt”).
O'brien
May 19th, 2009
9:55 am
It’s no surprise that Woody is coming back. I just wish he hires more seasoned assitants.
When Sund came here, he said he liked Acie. And even now, he still says he likes what he saw from Acie. But yet Acie gets no PT. So now what? Keep him for another year and see if he stays healthy and gets more PT?
One thing Sheed will add is the fire that the Hawks are missing. I dont want Sheed making any guarnatees before a game, but he is willing to step up and take responsibility, moreso than JJ. He has been to the playoffs a number of times and has won an NBA championship. Maybe coming here will motivate him to prove his doubters/detractors wrong.
Astro Joe
May 19th, 2009
9:56 am
So I’ll confess my opinion of big men who shoot jumpers… they are SOFT. Rasheed used to be lethal in the post, that sweet turn around jumper with the high release was unstoppable. But once he started making those 3s, he seemed to say “wow, I can score without banging? I like it out here”. And there, he stayed. I know that everyone is convinced that Josh takes jumpers because Woody often has him playing out of position. Is it possible that Smith (who everyone will agree is an under-sized PF) may also like to avoid contact on some offensive possessions? Or does that stereotype only work for Euro players and not Americans (again, like Rasheed, Tim Thomas, Troy Murphy & Antoine Walker to name a few)? I agree with Ray that Smith will likely grow by leaps and bounds with the right mentor. And chances are, that mentor needs to have a fair amount of baggage (I can’t imagine Smith learning at the knee of a choir boy… he needs someone with a similar edge). I just think Rasheed is a tremendous risk with regard to Smith’s maturation. I like what Rasheed would bring on the court (for the right price). And he would likely instill as much confidence to the team as Bibby brought in February, 2008. (His teammates have loved him everywhere he has played and he is reported to be a great guy who is super smart). It may be a gamble worth taking (Rasheed may even provide a bridge between Smith and Joe which certainly would help team chemistry).
Melvin
May 19th, 2009
10:11 am
Astro,
I think the Hawks will have to overspend to get Rasheed b/c he’s being link to the Spurs and Mavs. Something tells me he will be a Spur (they always get their guy) if the money is the same across the board. And base on your recap of Sund’s interview, I don’t see major changes coming this offseason. We may even resign our top 4 FA’s. One thing for sure, Sund definitely have to make a decision on JChill b/c this is the last season the Hawks would hold his rights. Im all for dumping Speedy and Mo to resign JChill. Heck, its possible we could keep Mo and give JChill Speedy’s salary.
BillyWhiteShoes
May 19th, 2009
10:29 am
1) Trade Marvin for a Center (Tyson Chandler, anyone). N.O. was about to trade Chandler for 3 bags of peanuts and a beer until they found out that his foot hurts.
2) Don’t resign Bibby and sign Ray Felton or Ramon Sessions with the extra money.
3) Resign your energy guys (Zsa Zsa and Flip).
4) Or you could get Mookie, Smitty, and Laetner to come out of retirement.
Astro Joe
May 19th, 2009
10:33 am
Melvin, if Spurs grab Rasheed, then Hawks should go after either Kurt Thomas or Oberto. Neither are true centers but they know their role. I have always like Thomas because he is old school-tough and was able to knock down the open jumper. And he will undoubtedly do the dirty work for a team. Rasheed’s fiery demeanor would actually fit perfectly with the ultra-calm Spurs.
Melvin
May 19th, 2009
11:03 am
Astro,
I like McDyess for us. A big that can rebound, hit the 17 footer and leaves it all on the floor every nite. Also, I would welcome Channing Frye as well. I think he’s becoming more of a 5 as his body fills out. He’s a young guy with good skills that hasn’t reach his peak on the development side and would be a nice backup for Josh/AL playing along side McDyess or ZaZa…
Astro Joe
May 19th, 2009
11:30 am
Melvin, love McDyess (and Joe Smith, too , who I think is very similar to McDyess). Less sold on Frye, seems very, very soft to me.
Just read some lottery speculation. If Sacramento gets #1 pick, they will naturally choose Griffin. Which led me to think about a S&T where we get Jason Thompson and Nocioni for Marvin and maybe Acie. Thompson can be that perimeter-oriented center and Nocioni gives us toughness off the bench. Kings get to rebuild their team around Kevin Martin, Marvin, Blake Griffin and Hawes. A super-nice nucleus for the Maloof Brothers.
Astro Joe
May 19th, 2009
11:41 am
Sund interview this morning. Looks like there are 3 segments available.
http://multimedia.790thezone.com/
dap01
May 19th, 2009
12:01 pm
That interview with Sund scares me. Sund did little to make me think that he has a plan. He seems to constantly justify the failures of the Hawks. I was not impressed, he gave no insight.
moboman
May 19th, 2009
12:35 pm
Mario West is a feel good story wasting room on the bench. Acie Law hasnt proven durable enough to be counted on as the successor to Bibby. Too risky to count on him as the answer. Marvin is not a starter, good trade material. Joe is a keeper but we may need to package him in a trade if the deal is right due to contract length. Have to have a big man. Keep Bibby at the right price, or move on. CANT OVERSPEND FOR HIM. Flip and Mo were good acquisitions and keepers. Childress cant shoot and is trade bait, dont need him back. Morris is a slow flop. I have confidence in Sund’s ability to improve the roster in whatever way is necessary. Josh and Horford are bonafide NBA starters, but at the 3 & 4. So are Joe, and so is Bibby at the right price. Need a real 5, not a team full of 4’s.
Hoops
May 19th, 2009
1:27 pm
Billy White Shoes,
You make some valid points. What do you think about these options?
1. Resign Bibby and move him to the 2 position for outside shooting.
2. Trade Marvin for a PG. Sessions & Miller are FA. Westbrook or Conley are possible.
3. Move Joe to the 3 position.
4. Trade Josh Smith for a starting 5 man and move Horford to the 4 position. Bynum is a possibility. He is getting alot of pine time in LA. Maybe trade up to get Thabeet. Use Law and Speedy in any trade to get more salary space. Resign Zaza.
5. Resign Flip as a back up 1 and bring back J Childress.
doc
May 19th, 2009
2:06 pm
thanks aj for the link.
ScarlettOhara
May 19th, 2009
3:00 pm
Hoops: you are way off; First of all, dont bring Bynum here. Bynum is an undeveloped talent, a big guy, but completely unproductive as far as scoring is concerned. Dont get rid of Flip and bring back Childress. Childress is gone to Greece and will never return. Flip deserves a promotion into the starting lineup. Flip should replace Marvin Williams in the starting lineup and that should make an immediate impact on the Hawks. That one move will make the Hawks a 50-win team. Also develop AC Law into a point guard. Acie should eventually replace Mike Bibby in the starting lineup as point guard. The Hawks have a great nucleus which should not be dismantled.
Hoops
May 19th, 2009
3:55 pm
ScarlettOhara,
I’ll agree that Bynum has some developing to go, but we need a Big that can play defense and rebound while Horford is on the floor @ the 4 position. Zaza has to be resigned, but we need a starter @ the 5.
I was not suggesting that we not resign Flip. I really like Flip better than J Childress, but we can use J Childress as trade bait if needed. Let Flip compete with the new point guard for the spot. I just think that Bibby would be a better 2 because he would give us another outside shooter to go with JJ. This is what I see as a contender for the Hawks:
1-New PG (Sessions, Miller, Westbrook), AC Law
2-Bibby, Flip
3-JJ, Evans
4-Horford, Solo
5-New Center (Bynum, Rasheed), Zaza
That team can play with the best right there! Great guard play, great outside shooting, and Bigs that can play inside! What do you think?
Sautee
May 19th, 2009
4:03 pm
moboman,
about this: “Acie Law hasnt proven durable enough to be counted on as the successor to Bibby.”
Just for the record, and to once and for all put this NONSENSE to bed:
Over the last 2 years, Mike Bibby has played a whopping 16 games more than Acie. And just how many dnp-cd’s do you think Acie got over that time?
And, Bibby just turned 31, but for some reason, folks THINK he’s WAY more durable than Acie. I just don’t get that.
And this fallacy keeps on being repeated, like a bad game of “gossip”.
If you want to say he’s not talented enough, fine. But to say he’s “not proven to be durable enough”, well, I don’t buy it unless there’s some acknowledgement that Bibby may not be durable enough either. And Acie’s not getting ready to sign a big contract like Bibby is.
I guess I’m saying that perhaps the fear of a lack of durability should be aimed more at Bibby (whom, as most here know, I like). I’m not as worried as many about Acie’s durability. Youngun’s heal faster than 31 year olds.
Sautee
May 19th, 2009
4:12 pm
Astro Joe,
I don’ tthink you can really include Troy Murphy in your list of “soft” bigs who can shoot the 3.
Or did he average 11.8 rebounds without banging? LOL, maybe he just got all the long rebounds on his missed 3’s.
Sautee
May 19th, 2009
4:33 pm
AJ
Meant to ask you about this: “Somewhere, between a 13 win season and a 47 win season, many stopped caring for wins and grew content watching the turnstyle at the scorers table. WTF is that about?”
C’mon now Joe, “many” stopped caring about wins?
I could not name a soul on this blog who cares MORE about playing time than wins. You must be able to or you wouldn’t have made that post. Unless of course it was a straw man argument, designed only to sarcastically make your point.
So Joe, which was it? Are their REALLY folks out there on this blog, who you see as caring more about playing time than wins?
Or was that an over-reaction to the assault on Woody over player development?
Gotta be one or the other.
And then there’s this: ” Woody is responsible for the development of the players, for free throw shooting, for turnovers, for defensive rotations, for moving screens, for poor foot work, for fast break opportunities, for points in the paint and a whole lot more. He is both responsible and accountable.”
So, next season, will we see a brand new Astro Joe, holding Woody accountable for all the afore mentioned stuff?
BTW, I agree that Dallas has little to offer.
Astro Joe
May 19th, 2009
4:45 pm
Sautee, he is accountable for all of that stuff. Just like any other leader has to be accountable for all of the stuff that his direct reports care for. The CEO of Coca-Cola is responsible for the display at the QT in my neighborhood. Trust me, I understand that concept completely.
Player development on this blog is like the Braves blog complaining about the hitting order. Who gives a crap? The team won 10 more games. If Acie had played extensively, we still would have lost to Cleveland and we would not have had a better playoff seeding. So who cares?
The details are interesting (sometimes) but ultimately irrelevant.
Sekou Smith
May 19th, 2009
4:55 pm
New blog up. Good news for some of you. Not so good for some others. Ha. Chew it up as you will. Draft lottery is tonight as well. Lots of good stuff to talk about. New blog up!!!!!!!
Sautee
May 19th, 2009
5:10 pm
“If Acie had played extensively, we still would have lost to Cleveland and we would not have had a better playoff seeding. So who cares?”
True dat, BUT if Acie HAD played extensively, we’d now have more data to judge his potential as a possible answer to our point guard quandry.
AND, Joe would have played fewer minutes, since Flip’s minutes would have been at the 2, where they SHOULD have been in my estimation.
So maybe we play Cleveland a little better with a rested Joe, AND a little more defense and penetration at the 1, but you are correct that the result would likely have been the same.
“Player development on this blog is like the Braves blog complaining about the hitting order. Who gives a crap?”
Oh, only those who take a long range view. If player development is so easily ignored, woe be to the 2011 Hawks and beyond. If Woody is “responsible and accountable”, and yet is refusing to BE “responsible and accountable” regarding player development, then THAT ITSELF is a great reason to “give a crap”.
I’ll have to point out that you artfully dodged my questions in my 4:33 post..
C’mon, Joe, I have faith in you,answer up.
SEASON TICKET HOLDER
May 27th, 2009
6:05 am
I hope Sund realizes the potential that Acie Law has. As a fan I’m anxious to see what an healthy Acie Law will bring to this Franchise. This ball club should be built around players no the coach and with being said keeping Acie on the bench is a henderence to a very young and talented point gaurd in this Association. Sunds we read in the interview where you “liked” Acie Law…Lets see if given a chance will those words turn to like….
Go HAWKS!
SEASON TICKET HOLDER
May 27th, 2009
6:10 am
I hope Sund realizes the potential that Acie Law has. As a fan I’m anxious to see what an healthy Acie Law will bring to this Franchise. This ball club should be built around players not the coach and with that being said keeping Acie on the bench is a henderence to a very young and talented point gaurd in this Association. *SUNDS* we read in the interview where you “liked” Acie Law…Lets see if (he) is given a chance will those words turn into like….
Go HAWKS!
sorry i didnt proof read the previous comment
Nique
May 28th, 2009
1:13 pm
Good article, I think trading for Kirk Hinrich & then restructuring him cap & deal would make alot of since. He pushes the ball like our team should, is known for his tough D, & is a pretty good shooter, all things we need in our pg, plus we could probably get him for a 2cnd, or at least this year & next year’s 2cnd, holding onto our # 1’s. But if they don’t go that way Maynor would be a good fit as well. I also, like Lawson, but his injury history & lack of size worries me.
Mitch
May 28th, 2009
6:41 pm
SIGN MIKE BIBBY PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jared
May 31st, 2009
10:23 pm
I think that the hawks should fire mike woodson and replace him with avery johnson. let mike bibby go and sign ben gordon and raymond felton and trade joe johnson and a draft pick back to pheonix for stoudamire. also resign zaza and make sure we keep flip. also coach josh smith into either developing a jump shot or to stop taking them.
NEXT YEAR STARTING LINEUP:
PG: RAYMOND FELTON
SG: BEN GORDON
SF: MARVIN WILLIAMS
PF: JOSH SMITH
C: AMARE STOUDAMIRE
GOOOOOOOO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!