Do they have anything left?
Do Joe, Josh and the Hawks have anything left? We're going to find out in a few hours.
HAWKSVILLE - The clock is ticking on this once miraculous season for the Hawks.
How much time remains is hard to tell, could be a couple games or a couple days.
No one knows for sure.
But one question about these Hawks remains.
Do they have anything left?
Fresh off two straight blowout loss in Cleveland, it’s all come down to this one showing, tonight’s Game 3 against Cleveland at Philips Arena.
If the Hawks can dig down and find something that works long enough to hold off the Cavaliers, maybe, just perhaps maybe, they can stretch this series out a few days longer.
We all know there have been far too many injuries to contend with for the Hawks to actually dream about springing an upset.
But there is still time to save a little face and make the NBA, the city of Cleveland and even the Cavaliers sweat a little bit.
Win tonight and waking up Sunday morning in a 2-1 hole gives people hope. Go to bed tonight down 3-0, however, and Monday’s Game 4 becomes 48 minutes of survivor. And with LeBron James smelling blood and the Hawks smelling vacation … well, it could be just enough to shove the Hawks all the way over the playoff cliff.
I took a seat in my barber’s chair a little earlier today and before he could even get started, one of his fellow barbers stopped him so he could ask the question that I’ve been getting non-stop the past 48 hours.
“Them boys gettin’ swept or what man?”
I’ll tell you like I told him, it all comes down to tonight.
The Hawks have been holding on to the aura of their own home court advantage, and all the cosmic energy that comes with it, all season long.
It worked for them in Game 7 against Miami. But that was a series clincher. And they weren’t missing three injured starters (only Marvin Williams sat that one out, Al Horford and Joe Johnson did not).
Johnson, Horford and Williams might play tonight (all three are officially “game-time” decisions) and it still might not be enough to hold off the Cavs. They’re that good. And that focused. And that serious about doing whatever it takes, whenever they have to and wherever they have to in an effort to win a championship.
I loved Wally Szczerbiak’s quote after Game 2 when he was asked about the Cavs’ six, double-digit playoff wins this postseason – “You haven’t seen the hard work we’ve been putting in,” he said, insulted that anyone would dare to think the Cavs are just good enough to show up and blow teams away without doing any dirty work to make it happen. “There’s a lot of work that goes into playing as well as we’re playing. We definitely put the effort in on the practice floor, in the film room and in the weight room. We’ve done it all season long, so we are going to continue to do that and it’s paying off during game time.”
This from the team’s seventh, eighth or ninth man, depending on Mike Brown’s playing rotation on a given night. That’s what winning big is all about, that attitude, that mindset and that kind of sacrifice.
And while this looks like hard work from the Hawks’ perspective, James is smiling at the opportunity to play in “another hostile environment” – if an arena filled with fans wearing his jerseys and gasping at his every move, from the powder toss at the start of the game to his headband toss to the crowd at the end, and everything in between, can be considered hostile.
“We have a 2-0 lead,” James said. “A series is never won in two games or three games. But Game 3 is going to be really fun.”
We shall see shortly.
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
845 comments Add your comment
JP
May 12th, 2009
5:01 pm
Always on the money Sekou. I’ve started my own little ATL blog, please check it out: intheatl.wordpress.com
JP
RJ
May 12th, 2009
5:15 pm
All people who want Josh traded say “I”
Sautee
May 12th, 2009
6:06 pm
ding!
Samuel
May 12th, 2009
6:12 pm
I said that our goal was to win home court and win a first round series. We accomplished that goal so in my mind this year was a success and a definate improvement.
On our best night, we would have had a hard time beating LeBron and the Cavs.
Right now, LeBron James is playing as good as any player has ever played the game. MJ included. I have always said the LeBron had something to prove because he couldn’t consistantly knock down the outside shot and hit free throws. Right now, he’s doing that and he is unstoppable. His teammates are good but it’s mainly due to the fact that they know they are playing with the best in the game.
I would be very surprised if Cleveland does not win the Ring this year. Very surprised. Lebron is just too good and too hungry.
We have some very important decisions to make comming up. For us to move to another level, among the elite teams the following must happen:
1) We must get a true low post scorer. I know Al is a good young player but he’s not skilled enough to be a consistant threat in the post. I know he was injured but even healthy he has a lot to improve on. I can see him being a U. Haslem in his prime.
2) Trade either JJ, Josh, or AL. The reason I say one of these three is that they can bring the most in return plus Al and Josh must ultimately play the same position on offense. I am really leaning towards trading Al. Josh has too much talent to trade.
Although I would also consider trading JJ. He’s an allstar but you can find simular talent with better leadership qualities out there. I believe he can bring two solid starters.
3) We either sign Bibby at a lower price or let him walk and get another point guard. I don’t trust Acie.
4) Woody needs to continue to grow as a coach. Although I think he did a great job. There is always room for improvement. We do need to push the ball more. I’m not so concerned with the half court sets as everybody else. Personally, I don’t see anything different than every other team in the league is doing. The difference is Cleveland had LeBron James and we couldn’t hit wide open shots. However, I do believe we should run more.
All in All. A good season.
Sautee
May 12th, 2009
6:13 pm
newkid,
Thanks. Now I get it. And I like it.
But I’ll argue that Hedo would NOT render Flip expendable. We still need an aggressive scorer of the bench. Flip is BY FAR the most confident shooter we have.
I’m just afraid that some of the big boys might have noticed his season, and they have a little more “ring allure” than we can offer at the present time.
Ken Strickland
May 12th, 2009
6:20 pm
Just finished reading the article by Jeff Shultz on whether we should trade Joe Johnson. He believes we shouldn’t trade JSmith because we might seriously regret letting him go to another team and possibly become a monster player under another head coach. That comment tells me he also thinks Mike Woodson is the major reason our young players are still struggling to develop their talent to the fullest.
We need a HC that understands the importance of developing a system that takes maximum advantage of the talents of his individual players. We’ve seen enough of these HC’s that are married to systems and insist on forcing players into that preferred system, then punish those players that struggle fitting in. We need multiple OFF sets that take advantage of the strengths of our key players. Here’s what I mean.
(1) MBibby-a one dimensional PG to the extreme. He causes foul problems for our frontline players because he plays no DEF, can’t breakdown a DEF with penetration and rely’s solely on long range shooting. If he’s off, we get from him what we’ve gotten the last 2 seasons during the playoffs, almost nothing. One dimensional players like him are usually brought off the bench, unless they can rebound, block shots and/or play strong DEF(Examples: BWallace, DRodman, Dmutombo).
(2) Joe Johnson-he shouldn’t be blamed for not being a strong one on one player like LJames, DWade or KBryant. He shouldn’t have to control the ball as much as he does or be forced to go one on one in order to help his team. If Woodson had a clue, he’d modify his OFF to take advantage of the double teaming he gets by posting him up more to take advantage of his size, strength, ballhandling and passing skills. That way, he’d get more assists, more fouls, which would create more FT opportunities and more open scoring opportunities for his teammates.
(3) Marvin Williams-in just one off season he managed to extend his shooting range to 3pt range, while retaining his accuracy. He also managed to improve his overall DEF and ability to drive to the basket. With his size, strength, shooting accuracy and ability to come hard off screens and shoot, he’d thrive in an OFF set like the one that’s helped make Detroit’s Rip Hamilton such an effecient scorer and multiple Allstar. Woodson preferred OFF system also forces him to go one on one too often, which is a weakness.
(4) Josh Smith-he spent an entire off season training with one of the greatest post players in NBA history to improve his post up gm(Hakeem the Dream). Instead of designing an OFF package to takes advantage of his newly developed skills, Woodson sticks to his preferred system, which has Smoove hanging out near the 3pt line hoisting ill advised jumpers.
(5) Al Horford-the man is a beast. He’s shown that he has a very effective and accurate 10-12 ft jump shot. Yet, Woodson refuses to establish an OFF set that allows him to consistently take advantage of that shooting ability. He takes that shot only when the shot clock in expiring or there’s a DEF error that leaves him wide open 10-12 feet from the basket. He simply doesn’t get enough scoring opportunities.
If we had these types of OFF sets inclueded as part of our overall OFF, we’d be able to take full advantage of certain players strengths and use those strengths to consistently exploit mismatches. We’d also see less one on one play and more OFF consistency. ISN’T THAT EXACTY WHAT TEAMS DO TO US ON A REGULAR BASIS?
HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT, I WHAT TO CONGRAGULATE ALL OF THE HAWK PLAYERS FOR OVERCOMING A LOT OF ADVERSITY, ESPECIALLY THE LONGTERM INJURIES SUFFERED BY 3 STARTERS, TO GIVE US FANS A VERY REWARDING SEASON OVERALL. THANKS AGAIN HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sautee
May 12th, 2009
6:24 pm
Samuel,
Trading Al would be poor asset management, since he’s still on his rookie contract.
If, and it’s a HUGE if, we could get two solid starters for JJ (what was it you wanted, Turiaf and your MS boy?), I’d say explore that, but one of them HAS to be a defensive minded big, and the other one HAS to have some firepower.
I’m not certain about Ellis consistency as a scorer, but on the surface, I’m intrigued. But could he handle ISO Monta with a double team?
I agree on Bibby. I don’t think we can give Acie any more than an incomplete grade at this point. I’m NOT ready to totally give him the reins, but I’d love to see what 15-18 minutes would bring, Bibby or no Bibby.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on Woody. I think he’s lost them. My opinion.
Clyde
May 12th, 2009
6:28 pm
Speedy Claxton skips this mornings mandatory meeting heading into the final year of his contract. That’s one step in the right direction. Lets trade if if anyone would want him. To make it so bad we signed that clown instead of drafting Chris Paul. Woody said he would prefer a veteran point guard over a rookie.
FIRE WOODY
Clyde
May 12th, 2009
6:33 pm
Ken Strickland for Blogger of the Year
FIRE WOODY
Sautee
May 12th, 2009
6:35 pm
Ken Strickland,
PLEASE send that post to Rick Sund. PLEASE!
niremetal
May 12th, 2009
6:46 pm
RJ,
I. But only if the price is right. I’ve always suggested Biedrins as a possible acquisition. Smoove would thrive as a 4 or even a 5 in Nellie’s run-and-gun system, and Biedrins gives an honest-to-god starting-caliber center who can block shots, grab rebounds, and allow us to move Horford to the 4 (which is his natural position).
Sautee,
I’d also be intrigued by a package of Monta Ellis and, say, Biedrins in exchange for JJ. Probably not enough to pull the trigger…but I’d definitely be tempted.
I’d also be intrigued by a double sign-and-trade of Marvin for Hedo. But something tells me that would end up being a bad trade for us 2-3 years from now, especially if Marvin is given the room to grow that Hedo was given in Van Gundy’s system…
Ken Strickland
May 12th, 2009
6:54 pm
One other thing. While I’m largely recognized as the one that’s championed the movement to fire Woodson, CLYDE and former GM BILLY KNIGHT are the ones that identified Woodson as the problems first. I simply jumped on their bandwagon. I’d give almost anytbing to see what a starting lineup of PG-ALaw, SG-JJohnson, SF-MWilliams, C-AHorford and PF-JSmith could do under a more enlightened and innovative HC. I’d also like to see a bench made up of JChildress, RMurray, ZPachulia, SJones, MBibby and maybe MEvans and/or OHunter. That lineup could run with anybody, and probably out run most.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 12th, 2009
7:07 pm
AJ, if they had played the way they did in Game 3 and the Cavs had simply beat them because they were a better team, I would have had no problem with it. My problem was that the Hawks played terrible, regardless of the opponent. I think they would have had a hard time beating the Wizards the way they played last night.
Blast
May 12th, 2009
7:12 pm
So all the Hawks say they are all ‘family’ and love each other and all want to come back. Woody is saying you don’t bust up a team that won 47 games. That he has a core group of 8-9 guys you can build on. You just add pieces to them. He talked about the bench needing to get better, and he will be meeting with Sund and owners in to determine priorities going forth. Meaning dude has one more contract year to fulfill. Those yelling Fire Woody? Save your breath.
Hmmmm. In games 3 and 4, when Hawks had the lead, both teams went to their bench. The Cavs put up 5 complete and different players that actually outplayed Hawks bench and took the lead. So Woody plays 7-9 guys while his opponent played at least 10. So depth is clearly an issue when you play the top teams, or go deep in payoffs. Maybe reason Woody wore his starters out during the season was because he didn’t trust his bench?
In 4 games, Cleveland doubled up Hawks on the rebounding edge, probably a playoff record. At one point, the Cavs got 3 straight offensive rebounds, before scoring. Hawks are an undersized team. We need a big or two.
Blast
May 12th, 2009
7:37 pm
The Cavs might be the most complete team I have seen in a while. First they have a hometown hero, a basketball phenom the likes we haven’t seen since Jordan. Someone with aspirations so lofty some call him King. LBJ. A Superstar like non other.
Then at center, they have the Big Z. A legit 7 footer. A very capable big man that could average 25 easy if all plays ran through him. He was the face of the franchise for years before LBJ came along.
Deonte West at point. Mo Williams, another all star at shooting guard. Then crazy Varejao, who creates havoc on the court, and can shoot the mid ranger.
Bench. Gibson: 3 point contest winner. Wally: shooter. Joe Smith: banger. Ben Wallace: former All Star, former starter on Championship teams, rebounding demon. Pavlovic: another shooter.
Hawks have Bibby, Joe, Mo, a banged up Marvin, an even more banged up Al, Josh, Flip and Zaza. And no LeBron James. How could Hawks compete?
With all that money the Cavs are shelling out, they better win a ring this year. And if they do, we can expect many more years of the Cleveland Cavaliers dominating the NBA.
East finals is going to be a thriller! I hope. No blowouts, please. We want close games!
harry the hawk
May 12th, 2009
7:50 pm
heard an interesting quote today about the Lakers (that directly applies to the Hawks figuring out the personality of their team):
“At the end of the day, finesse teams don’t win championships in the NBA”
Wow….think most BBall fans know this (look at the way the Cavs have taken on a much tougher persona after reaching the Finals with Boobie G and Sasha P just two short years ago)
That said, do you christen Josh as the piece you build the team around because he has the potential to be a tougher,more physical player or do you roll with your proven All-Star (whose perimeter/finesse game is his strength), JJ?
How does this impact the choice of Bosh, Boozer, Artest and the other names mentioned as future Hawks?
Based on this line of thinking, one would also assume Mike B is a goner, Flip looks good, Al H’s future here is questionable,at best and……..Zaza starts to look like a bargain for next season.
Marv W remains a tough call, in part, because he’s injury-prone
Thoughts?
darrell starks
May 12th, 2009
7:57 pm
You do not want to take a step back if you bring woody back you will i guarantee like i said there is a lot of excitement for this team and one thing about this city if the fans loose entrance its hard to get them to come back.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 12th, 2009
8:35 pm
IF IM GM HERE IS SOME OF THE OPTIONS I WOULD DO.
1. Bring in avery as the coach a good student of the game won nba title with the spurs lead dallas to finals would still be coaching dallas if marc silly a$$ cuban wouldnt have traded devin harris for kidd.
2.Do what ever it take to bring back chill.
3.Let bibby go we need to free up cap space to make a trade.
4.Trade option 1 marvin this year 1st and next year 1st for rudy gay.
Starting five acie, joe, rudy, josh, horford bench flip, evans, chill, solo,zaza and let this team grow together i can see us winning a title.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 12th, 2009
8:58 pm
Trade option 2 marvin and horford and a 1st round draft pick for chris bosh and sign free agent hakim warrick make shur when you make this deal chris bosh is lock in for at least 5 years. starting five acie, joe, chill, josh, chris bosh bench player flip,evans,hakim warrick,solo,zaza this team can win a title now.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
darrell starks
May 12th, 2009
9:13 pm
Trade option 3 marvin and horford and a 1st round draft pick for amar stoudemire and sign free agent hakim warrick make shur when you make this deal stoudemire is lock in for at least 5years. starting five acie, joe, chill, josh, stoudemire bench player flip, evans, hakim warrick, solo, zaza this team will be a solid contender for a title.
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Samuel
May 12th, 2009
9:22 pm
Sautee,
Ellis is much quicker and faster than JJ and shoots just as good. The only thing you would lose is the ability to guard 3 positions. Ellis could easily score 25 points per. Plus, he has more leadership potential.
niremetal
May 12th, 2009
10:29 pm
Alright, Ellis plus Biedrens for JJ is a maybe. But the idea of Ellis for JJ straight up is…well…Ding!
The question isn’t whether Ellis could score 25 per. The question is whether he could score 25 per on a good team. He’s not significantly quicker than JJ, doesn’t have JJ’s elevation on jumpers, doesn’t even have JJ’s court vision, and doesn’t even come close to having JJ’s perimeter shooting ability. The man shot 30.7% from deep this year. And that was an improvement on his previous two seasons. Oh, and he’s never had to fight through a double team in his life because of Nellie’s offense and the fact that he’s always had good scorers all around him.
Not able to guard three positions? Ellis is 6′3 and hasn’t shown an ability to guard even one position. We couldn’t start him unless we had another proven perimeter defender in our back pocket.
And the idea that Monta Ellis has ANY leadership ability whatsoever is beyond laughable. This is a guy who got hurt in a moped accident (which he shouldn’t have done in the first place) and then lied to his team about it. And Baron Davis was the Warriors’ on-court leader last year. Ellis has shown zero leadership in his time with the Warriors.
He’s a solid player, but he’s not going to be able to take this team any further than JJ can. Biedrins would be a must for me even to consider trading JJ for him.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 12th, 2009
11:41 pm
Harry, one thing implied but not stated outright in your post is that every player on a finesse team is a finesse player, and every player on a physical team is a physical player. I don’t think this is the case. You need a certain key group of physical players for a team to take on a physical persona, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be a finesse player or two mixed in. Take the Celtics for example: nobody would call them a finesse team, but Ray Allen has been a pretty finesse player over the course of his career.
Big Ray
May 13th, 2009
1:41 am
bigeasy830,
You’re joking, right? You know, there was a time when I wanted Allen Iverson to come here. There was a time when I figured he could really rock this joint.
But not anymore. Look, he had a chance to get it done when he was in Denver, running with Carmelo Anthony, JR Smith, and Marcus Camby. Didn’t get it done. He had a chance in Detroit with Rip, Tayshaun, ‘Sheed, and Stuckey. Not only did the Pistons get WORSE, but they ended up deactivating him before the season was over.
He can’t get it done here. Period. Ding, ding, ding, ding…..DING!!
Big Ray
May 13th, 2009
1:52 am
I don’t expect Woody to go anywhere this offseason. He signed a 2-year contract, and you don’t fire a guy for being around when the team he’s been coaching has achieved higher goals this season than it has the whole time he’s been here. Now, that doesn’t exactly guarantee him an extension this summer, either. And yet, a decision has to be made. Why? Because there is almost no point in making any serious personnel moves until you decide on who is coaching your team. And if I were Sund, I might just want to hold those cards close to my vest for another year.
Woody wants Bibby, Woody says we don’t need big personnel changes, Woody says this, Woody says that. Woody’s planning on staying. The question is, will something as simple as health (which isn’t guaranteed, as we well know) be enough to get us to the next level….as Woody seems to think it will? Woody says the bench has to get better.
Interesting. I wonder what his suggestions for a solution might be? He may as well be telling “ya boy Rick” that he needs to get on the job and get him some better stuff to deal with. But if Sund does that…then Woody has to make it work. Which means he has to play 9 or 10 deep. Can he do that without having a coronary? He better figure that one out, because that’s what a bench is for: when you have injuries and/or fatigue.
Najeh Davenpoop
May 13th, 2009
1:59 am
If Iverson was still the unstoppable force he was three years ago, I would actually be open to rolling the dice on him. He needs to be on a team where the entire offense is designed around him, other players can make an impact without having the ball in their hands, and everyone plays good defense, and the Hawks could be that kind of team as they are currently constructed if you replace Bibby with Iverson. But AI is not that superstar player anymore who single-handedly elevates teams to contention on his own anymore. The Iverson from three years ago could very likely make this team a 55-win contender. I don’t think today’s Iverson could do the same thing.
Devil's Advocate
May 13th, 2009
2:38 am
Okay, so Woodson thinks we don’t need to make big changes, we just need to make some tweaks here and there. He says we’re headed in the right direction. He says that we don’t want to go the other direction/way. Okay.
I see that several people here think the same thing. Okay, I’ll bite, but I have questions.
Number one, what’s your goal? To compete for championships, or make the playoffs as a 4 to 6 seed each year? A valid question, I think. This is not to insinuate that blowing up the team needs to happen, so let’s just skip the drama of any exaggerated retorts before we go on.
Most agree that Joe Johnson is not necessarily a superstar on the level of guy like Lebron James or Kobe Bryant, right? And most would agree that even a superstar of that level needs help, right? So, we could logically conclude that Joe Johnson who is described as our “best player”, also needs help, right?
Okay. Where is he going to get it from? Bibby? Josh? Al? Marvin? Or somewhere else?
Saying that only a tweak or two here and there is all that’s needed, is a nice thing to say. It makes it feel like everybody can stick together and play happily ever after in the land of make believe. And it may hold true. But if that’s the way to go, then SOMEBODY better change the way things are being run. Why? Because as far as I can see, the next best threat on offense behind Joe Johnson is Josh Smith.
Now isn’t that just too much? The one guy that half the fan base either loves or hates is the second leading scorer on the team, and easily one of the team’s top two performers in the playoffs this year. So where is Joe’s help coming from, if the next best cat on the hardwood is an immature, bone-headed play making, foul call arguing guy who can’t play the same way every night, and fights with his coach. He’s your second best guy. There, I said it again. Beginning to get the picture? Where is Joe Johnson getting the help from again? Marvin? Yeah right. Al Horford? Not likely. Mike Bibby? You’re killing me.
A tweak here or there. Okay. Where? What do you tweak? So the bench has to get better. What a concept. Only, is Woodson saying the bench players have to get better so he can play them, or is he saying the General Manager has to get him a better bench? Confusing. Who knows which one it is. Either way, that doesn’t change anything about the starting lineup, which is where the problems begin. The bench may not be that good, but at least they play together and with more passion and urgency. The starters have a problem with either the former or the latter, every other night. The bench has to get better. Okay. Where’s Joe Johnson getting his help from? The bench? Doubt it.
Maybe Woodson has a mind reprogramming machine that nobody knows about. Because with only a tweak here or there, all he ends up with is the same lineup as this year with a better bench. Which means the same problems. Which means you’re betting Joe Johnson getting on one of the other starters. Take your pick. Perhaps they should gamble everything on the “next year” theory. “Next year” somebody will step up and be another all-star or very good player. Hah. Heard that last year. Next year, Marvin is going to be great. Next year Josh will grow up. Next year, Mike Bibby will be faster and play better defense. Next year.
Do the tweaking if you want to. If that’s what you stick with, then you better be making sure that everybody shares the ball and plays together. Better be certain that everybody steps up and scores more. But the Hawks don’t play like that. Nobody shares the ball. They just run the same plays. Joe Johnson pound the ball and ISO. Josh Smith shoot jumpers. Flip Murray get called for a charge. Mike Bibby shoot until he hits one. You know, the usual. Let’s not forget the top secret offensive plays. There are two of them, designed for two different players. One is give Horford the ball until he starts scoring, then take it away. The other is give Williams the ball until he starts scoring, then take it away. If you’re for tweaking, then you have to change all of that. Otherwise, you get this year’s team next year, with fewer wins and a loss in the playoffs most likely.
Tweaking only affects the bench. Why? Woodson already decided this for you. Trading away any of the four starters under contract is a major change. Mike Bibby is an unrestricted free agent, so his position is the only one you can expect to actually tweak. Only, Woodson wants him back. Guess what? No tweaking with the starting lineup. Just the bench. Which matters only so much, since Woodson will only play three people there. I guess we know who is getting tweaked.
If you’re NOT into tweaking, the best thing to do is trade Josh Smith while he is still in the early stages of a very reasonable contract. Trade him before he completely destroys team chemistry. Nobody wants to correct him because they are worried about his pissy attitude. You have to yell at him to get him to act right. Yell at him too much and he may self destruct for the entirety of the game, and screw the whole team over. After he curses you out that is. Trade him while other teams are still drooling over his massive potential. While he’s still quite young. While they still think he can be something different under a different coach, in different scenery. Trade him while his value is still high. Trade him. Don’t tweak. Roll the dice. Get Joe Johnson some help. Stop trying to count on the most inconsistent player on the team to help you win. Eliminate the inconsistency and bring in some stability. Stop relying on him for energy.
Just trade him. Do it before you change your mind. Do it before Woodson completely loses his. Woodson would be better off without Josh Smith. He won’t say it, but he knows it. So do you. Have the balls to pull the trigger. Tweak THAT.
doc
May 13th, 2009
7:29 am
ultimately it iwll come to this:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AuHsy6Envh57Ch.QyZqpEAI5nYcB?slug=aw-magichoward051209&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
though it is howard speaking and about the magic, this type of confrontation will occur with the hawks if it already hasnt between josh and his coach behind closed doors to use the post players more effectively and begin to make an offense that goes through the two emerging stars al and josh. of course it is up to them to improve their games this summer. it was a good feeling story about how al went back to the campus last year after a very successful rookie season. unfortunately, that didnt take his game to a different level. maybe al has to take the same measures that josh has by going to houston or somewhere else to develop his game under the eyes of someone who knows so he and josh can become the force all expect they can be or it should be josh as the man.
ultimately, there has to be a changing of the guard when it comes to offensive design so this team doesnt go 5 or 6 minutes at a time clanking long shots off the rim. folks always claim it is josh. those that do only see the surface and have not looked at the numbers as to who are the true culprits when things go stale. i hope woody and sund will see something of their own team in the remarks by dwight howard before it becomes the problem here. it may affect the magic’s long term outlooks as clearly they are missing a time to strike while the iron is hot. they are the better team and should have won this one in 6 instead of walking home instead of facing the cavs in the championship series. magic have clearly underperformed in the off season while howard has been growing into an all star. let us make sure it doesnt happen here as the window of opportunity is narrow
devil’s advocate i dont consider mo a starter so we only have three starters under contract. there is the chance you get your wish as there are only 4 players that were used under contract. somehow sund will have to smooth his way to talking guys into coming here or signing for less than they want to keep things together to tweak it. i think guys mailed it in because they knew it was over for them as a group as much as zaza wants to make it into a family. that family unraveled because they knew there was little chance of continuity.
jj needs to get quiet as it is really revealing or at least call out those that did. did jj mail it in, not his teammates? a way to look at it is whatever he says is a projection of his own thoughts and expectations. that is why as good as he is he isnt a leader. do i look to what he says of others to see what he is really thinking? once he decides others are mailing it in he defines himself and his motives. tell us who of the mix that wont be here that mailed it in jj to make sure they arent back. lead us jj.
harry the hawk
May 13th, 2009
8:03 am
Najeh:
You’re exactly right….however, the real difference between Boston (your example) , Cleveland (my example) and the Hawks is that those team’s each made a conscious descion regarding their style of play and integrated key players into that system. No coincidence that each of the team’s that are currently left in the playoffs have distinct personalities…that are much more defined and better-executed than ours.
The current divide as to whose team this is (Joe’s or JJ’s) is a serious stumbling block towards acheiving that team identity. Even if we bring in a big man and those two become complimentary pieces, we’d still have to decide who we are…..which would detrmine what type of big man would fit.
The fact that TNT and other media outlets were asking “who’s team is this” indicates that everyone else knows that this is a major stumbling block towards taking that next big step forward.
They realize it has to be addressed—why don’t we?
If championships are the goal here—–and Mike Woodson’s argument to keep his job is that we’re on a 5 year plan headed in that direction—– I’d say he’s fundamentally flawed in the team not, at least, having a targetable identity by this time. This says, more than anything, that perhaps he’s done everything that he’s equipped to do and should not/could not be the one to help orchestrate these moves.
In today’s NBA (NFL,MLB,too)….teams have moved away from putting a bunch of athletes on the floor who simply have talent. Now, they draft and determine starters who can follow a broader mindset (we’re playing “small ball”, we’re running a “wildcat” type of offense, we’re a “defensive-minded” team). What are the Hawks?….don’t say “athletic” because i’ll stop you at Mike Bibby.
Seems we ideally,should be determining what kind of team philosophy (focus on defense, finesse, athleticism, run/gun) we want to follow and then get the best players who can execute our mindset.
Devil’s Advocate:
hit it right on the head,IMHO….whathever the Hawks SAY they are, they really only have two plays and neither takes the best advantage of the talent on the floor or their gifts. Until this team develops a clear identity, a leader(s) who personifies that mission on the court and a coach who can convince the team to LIVE AND BREATHE the philosophy, the Hawks will be no better than a first round team for the next several years, as the Eastern Conference will be deicdely tougher with the competition all clearing cap room to execute THEIR gameplans.
In a league where dominating talent (LeBron, Kobe), solid moving parts (Boston) or a hybrid of the two (Denver) equals success, the Hawks are presently neither feast nor fowl.
Wake Up Sund, and make the tough decision(s) while there’s till time!
Rod From College Park
May 13th, 2009
8:05 am
You are crazy. Trade Marvin. Keep Josh.
Samuel
May 13th, 2009
8:46 am
Nire,
I didn’t say Ellis for JJ straight up, however, I don’t think it’s so far fetched. Sure, he made a mistake as a what, teenager but his mentality and personality are much more suited for being a leader.
Ellis will ultimately go down in history as better player than JJ. Right now, we can get Ellis and either Turiaf or another solid player and it would upgrade our roster.
Mike is back
May 13th, 2009
9:07 am
harry the hawk, superlative comments bro that puts the focus where it should be…on sund…on time…and on now.
It’s not a question of breaking up the core…its really only two guys that’s not tradable…and I give you a hit…they ain’t guards. It’s about maximizing assets…the NBA has made decision for us…you seen the commercial during the playoff…who was on it…there it is.
Devil’s Advocate, excellent and well-conceived comments bro…where I differ more than anything is from a marketing point of view. If you bleeding 174 mil in lose…you need to increase shareholders value…man, you are glad to see your guy popping up on NBA commercials during the playoff…especially if you’re the Hawks. Its up the ASG to take advantage of this exposure. The league want Josh…I don’t trade that guy. I do like you said…I go get him some help…that means you got to make some moves even if you have to break some things up…in our case it not that bad…because of the coaching philosophy…they played disjointed anyway.
Ken Strickland
May 13th, 2009
9:26 am
HARY THE HAWK-well said. However, we actually do have an identity within the circles of the NBA and competent HC’s take advantage of it. We are a team that’s conflicted. Every NBA organization, except ours, knows we have a team full of talented players who’s talent is geared towards playing an uptempo OFF. They also know we have a HC that wants to establish HIS identity and succeed HIS way and stubbornly resists adjusting to the talents of his players. He insists they adjust to him.
They know that JJ is one of the NBA’s most talented all around players, who’s not as athletic as some of the more celebrated guards in the league. They know he can be just as effective if placed in a system that allows him to takes full advantage of his talents, which he’s not. They know he’s partnered with a one dimensional PG that isn’t a threat to do more that shoot 3pt bombs, so they double JJ consistently. They know Woodson prefers not to challenge a DEF by playing someone with the quickness and speed to penetrate and breakdown their DEF. They know he has a guard oriented OFF and prefers to let them shoot over the DEF.
They know he ignores his bench and will play his starters into exhaustion, so teams play the Hawks for the 4th qtr. Their strategy is to stay close, keep their key players fresh and take advantage of our exhausted players in the 4th qtr. All of us saw that strategy used in the Cleveland series. HC Mike Brown used his bench liberally and kept his key players fresh and used those fresh legs to keep a double team on JJ, as well as pound us on the boards unmercifully.
Woodson’s played right into their hands by allowing Lebron to have his way with us for 3 gms before ever considering double teaming him. He also played into their hands by refusing to give a hobbling Horford and a weiry legged Zaza enough rest. I believe Solo and Hunter, our 2 best remaining frontline players off the bench, got a total of maybe 2 mins total over the last 2gms in the series.
If you’re exhausted, frustrated, battling hard and still getting pounded, and your HC won’t give you a break, isn’t it customary to turn to the referees. Isn’t that exactly what happened when out of sheer frustration Zaza and Smoove started going after the refs and got all of those technicals?
OH YES, WE DO HAVE AN IDENTITY. IT’S JUST NOT ONE THAT SERVES US IN ANY POSITIVE WAY AND GOOD TEAMS TAKE FULL ADVANTAGE OF IT.
Hawk Eye
May 13th, 2009
9:31 am
Did anyone notice the discomfort of Dwight Howard after the game last night. He indirectly expressed his frustration and disappointment on his team and especially Steve Van Gundy. The native ATL boy should come back home…and Rick Sund should do whatever it takes to get this superstar..Trade Bibby,Mo Evans,Flip and Horford..and of course ..fire Woody.
JerryWest
May 13th, 2009
9:40 am
Who got the highest salary per game in the NBA in the last 3 seasons?
Is it Craig Speedy Claxton?
Hms
May 13th, 2009
10:15 am
“Ellis will ultimately go down in history as better player than JJ.”
Proof that “dumber than dog$hit” is a real life condition and possibly a communicable disease.
Woodys Butt Pimple
May 13th, 2009
10:19 am
“I didn’t say Ellis for JJ straight up, however, I don’t think it’s so far fetched. Sure, he made a mistake as a what, teenager but his mentality and personality are much more suited for being a leader.”
oh yeah there’s a winner. lead you right to a moped crash. then lie about it. maybe he can take woody for a ride on the moped and solve two problems at once. it would be like having robert kennedy as the designated driver.
Melvin
May 13th, 2009
10:35 am
Jerry,
Im not sure we can put all the blame on Speedy. I think the guy was Healthy enough this season to play. Someone decided to put him on the inactive list for 80 reg season and all the playoffs games. Hint, he skip the post season interview with a year left on his contract.
niremetal
May 13th, 2009
12:23 pm
Jerry West,
No, it’s Raef LaFrentz.
Devil’s Advocate,
I like your style
. I’d be up for trading Josh if it makes us better. Josh has a proclivity for tunnel vision that makes him unlikely to ever be a truly team-oriented player. You can see it whenever he gets the ball – if he makes the decision to shoot, he damn well is going to shoot. And if his path is totally cut off so that he is forced to make a pass, he usually turns it over (I wish that were hyperbole, but those of us who watch the games know that it’s not). Since he’ll never be good enough to be the top option on a title-contending team, he needs to be team-oriented in order to be worth his $11M/yr price tag.
Moreover, at this point, it should be clear to anyone that his skill set makes him a power forward, not a small forward. His poor perimeter shooting and ballhandling skills (read: penchant for turnovers whenever he dribbles) makes it implausible to expect him to perform well as a SF. That means if you want to slide Al over to his natural position of PF, Josh needs to go.
That being said, you only can trade him if the price is right. We need to get back a player that fills a need, preferably a big man who WILL allow us to slide Al over to PF. Once again, I suggest Biedrins.
cp
May 13th, 2009
12:36 pm
Ken you are on a roll, keep it up.
Rod from College Park
May 13th, 2009
12:55 pm
Ken Strickland,
Totally agree with all of you points except for Marvin of course. We need to move on from him and get another scoring threat on the level of Joe. Richard Jefferson, Gerald Wallace, Rudy Gay cone to mind. Just imagine if Marvin turned out to be, what we thaoght he would be when we drafted him. A Kevin Durant, Danny Granger type player. Think about how much better out team would be now, and how much different we would be thinking. Let Bibby walk, unless he takes much less money, and will accept a Jason Terry role, let Marvin Walk. Pursue a trade for a Rudy Gay, or Richard Jefferson. Try to add Camby or Kaman, via trade or sign and trade. I also think Marbury would be a guard to consider.
Ken Strickland
May 13th, 2009
1:41 pm
NIREMETAL-you claim Josh Smith has often has tunnel vision. Well, can’t you say the same about Flip Murray? Hasn’t he also been turnover prone, both with his passes and drives to the basket? Josh averages 35mins and 2.3 TO’s per gm and Flip averages 25mins and 1.6 TO’s per gm. But, Josh is the teams leading shotblocker, 2nd leading scorer(best inside scorer) and rebounder and tied for 3rd in assists. Yet, you go out of your way to find reasons to vilify and offer him up in various trade senarios, while at the same time you want Flip resigned. HOW CAN ANYONE WITH A CLUE RATIONALIZE MAKING FLIP MURRAY MORE VALUABLE TO THE TEAM THAN JOSH SMITH?
Josh has a high enough basketball IQ to know the Hawks are a much better team when they push the ball and play uptempo. He also knows Woodson’s OFF system has him on the perimeter too much and the only way he’s going to get consistent scoring opportunities, with like Bibby, JJ and Flip controlling the ball, is to hoist long jumpers or force drives to the basket. When the HC and the ballhoggers won’t do what the team does best, he takes it upon himself to do it. That’s the root of the problems between he and Woodson.
Bibby is much more of a liability than Josh and we need to either let him go or bring him off the bench. Those with a clue have already seen the fallacy of depending on Bibby’s 3pt bombs to counter the double teams JJ gets. EVEN MIKE WOODSON, BIBBY’S STAUNCHEST SUPPORTER, HAD TO FINALLY BENCH HIM IN THE GM AGAINST CLEVELAND BECAUSE OF NONE SUPPORT. We need quicker, faster, better penetrating guards that can attack a DEF and create easier scoring opportunities for our frontline players.
WHEN YOU LIVE BY THE JUMPSHOT YOU DIE BY IT, AND THE ATLANTA HAWKS ARE NOW DEAD.
terrell barron
May 13th, 2009
2:12 pm
Hawkeye, you cant be serious about Bibby(free-agent)being traded or Dwight leaving Orlando? Can you?
I MUS.WRITE
May 13th, 2009
2:25 pm
Heres my take……. We need a starting PG- Mike bibby is’nt gonna cut it. I would like to get Ray Felton, Jarret Jack or Kirk Heinrich,and draft a yung pg in the draft. I would resign bibby for about half his 15 million salary and use him as the back up pg until our yung draftee is ready ( Teague, Mills, Maynor).
That would give us 3 pg’s which means AC and Speedy can hit the bricks. I would try to get Tyson Chandler Maybe a S&T involving Marvin and Speedy’s expiring deal would be enuff…….
Mike Woodson -puzzles me…… I can see the incompetence in his coaching but the team keeps getting better– How do u fire a guy thats improved every year? I would still give him his walking papers …..I cant stand to see another year of terrible offense and one on one play.
PG/PG/Coach/ Easy button
niremetal
May 13th, 2009
2:39 pm
Ken,
Come on, man, you know better than to make comparisons like that. Yeah, Flip has tunnel vision – less than Josh, I’d say, but I’ll concede the point for now. But Flip is an off-the-bench guard who we paid $1.5M. We’re paying Josh $11M/yr to be a starting PF. Flip also handles the ball way more than Josh when he’s on the floor, and yet turns the ball over at a slightly lower rate per 36 minutes than Josh does (2.2 vs. 2.4). In any case, the comparison of who is “more valuable” really doesn’t make much sense, because they are players at different positions, on different payscales, filling different roles. To use your logic, I think Bibby is a better player than Zaza, but that doesn’t mean I think that we don’t get more bang for our buck by re-signing Zaza at $5M/yr than we would by re-signing Bibby at $10M/yr.
As for the other stuff…Josh’s assists are offset by the fact that he turns the ball over at about the same rate as he gets assists. He blocks fewer shots than he used to and, more importantly, he is still a mediocre-to-poor on-ball defender. He’s not our best inside scorer – Horford is. Josh just gets the ball more in Woody’s offensive scheme (and to call his offense a “scheme” is to give it more credit than it really deserves). You talked about Josh’s newly developed skills, but I’ve watched him all year, and I have been not been nearly as impressed with his low post repertoire as I have been by Al’s (on the few possessions where Al actually gets the ball in the post). And it’s almost amusing that you criticize Flip, JJ, and Bibby as ballhogs (although I’d argue than only Flip really is), but then basically say it’s a-ok for Josh to be a ballhog since everyone else is doing it. Huh?
I dunno what set you off, but that’s one of the less persuasive posts I’ve seen from you in awhile. In any case, I think that trading Josh for a legit starting center who allows us to slide Horford to the 4 would improve this team. The logic is simple. I think we need a legit starter at the 5, and I’d trade Josh before Al or Marvin because I think 1) Marvin is a better SF than Josh would be; and 2) Horford would make a better PF than Josh is. That’s in no small part because Marvin and Horford are talented players who know their limitations. Josh is probably more naturally athletic than either of them, but 3) he lacks the smoothness on his outside shot that Marvin has; 4) lacks the strength, on-ball post defense instincts, and fluidity in his low post moves that Horford has; and 5) still has no clue how to play within the limitations of his game.
This is not at all to say that Josh is a bad player. It’s just to say – like Ray, Devil’s Advocate, and several others – that he’s not a guy we can build around, and we should consider trading him if we can get back some good missing pieces to our puzzle.
Mike is back
May 13th, 2009
2:40 pm
Niremental, you make a very compelling argument…it would be nice to see Josh play in a well conceived offensive scheme before we give up on him. Despite playing in a guard-oriented offense his entire career…he has continued to improve each season. One can only wonder how far Josh and Al would have developed…had they played in a system where plays were actually called for them…and the plays actually took advantage of their strengths…instead of highlighting their weakness.
harry the hawk
May 13th, 2009
2:49 pm
Ken:
You’re dropping science—
You poinpointed the fundamental reason why, IMO, Woody can’t/won’t work here (in the paragraph I copied below).
No matter how talented he may be in other coaching areas, Mike Woodoson’s advocacy of living and dying by his sytem (otherwise known as the fit a “square player peg in round player hole theory), won’t work,won’t work, won’t work.
Mike, today’s game is multi-dimensional. It’s no longer just a matter of the best–or most athletic– talent winning. I
It’s schemes and recognizing the need to make adjustments, it’s fully understanding player abilities/shortcomings and knowing what that means within the larger defensive/offensive context, it’s knowing how these qualities relate to your competition; it’s maintaining healthy relationships with coaches/players/front office so team chemistry and performance remains at a consistently high level.
Elite organizations/GM’s/coaches get these nuances and use them as an unseen advantage over their lesser-prepared, lesser-enlightened opponents.
Based on these discussions, can we honestly say the Hawks operate this way? Does Woody approach his team and job this way?
I say no on BOTH accounts…..my point is, if the goal is for the ATL to reach the next (elite) level, you can make all of the cosmetic moves you want with players, but you also have to start with the basics.
“Josh has a high enough basketball IQ to know the Hawks are a much better team when they push the ball and play uptempo. He also knows Woodson’s OFF system has him on the perimeter too much and the only way he’s going to get consistent scoring opportunities, with like Bibby, JJ and Flip controlling the ball, is to hoist long jumpers or force drives to the basket. When the HC and the ballhoggers won’t do what the team does best, he takes it upon himself to do it. That’s the root of the problems between he and Woodson”
terrell barron
May 13th, 2009
3:20 pm
Trade JJ and Marvin for Rudy Gay and O.J. Mayo, re-sign Flip and Zaza, let Bibby, Mo, and Solo go, draft Patty Mills in the 1st, Danny Green in the 2nd, and pickup Marcus Camby. 1st team: Mills, Mayo, Gay, Smoove, Camby. 2nd team: Acie, Flip, Green, Horford, Zaza.
Rod from College Park
May 13th, 2009
3:32 pm
First Marvin is better than Josh, now Horford has a better inside game than Josh. Wow. Sometimes I wonder if peaople are actually watching the games. I guess that stats from this year, last year, and the year before, don’t matter huh.
Sautee
May 13th, 2009
4:12 pm
Niremetal,
about this: “Josh has a proclivity for tunnel vision that makes him unlikely to ever be a truly team-oriented player. You can see it whenever he gets the ball – if he makes the decision to shoot, he damn well is going to shoot. And if his path is totally cut off so that he is forced to make a pass, he usually turns it over (I wish that were hyperbole, but those of us who watch the games know that it’s not). Since he’ll never be good enough to be the top option on a title-contending team, he needs to be team-oriented in order to be worth his $11M/yr price tag.”
Allow me to heartily disagree. Josh is 7th in the entire league at his position in assists. That’s NOT the stats of a selfish player, which you are ascribing to him.
And how in the WORLD can you know that he’ll “never be good enough to be the top option on a title-contending team”?
Can you predict the future? The kid just turned 24. Remember that some players develop more slowly than others. When Chauncey Billups was 24, people were saying he was a bust. Just sayin’ man. You can NOT say that he WILL NOT improve that much, ’cause you just don’t know.
And then this: “if his path is totally cut off so that he is forced to make a pass, he usually turns it over”. Usually, Nire? He’s cut his turnovers down from 3.02 / gm last year to 2.33 / gm this year.
Is 2.33 times per game “usually”? Consider that many of his turnovers are from trying ill advised passes on fast breaks. That doesn’t leave many turnovers on set offense (as you were speaking). I’ll have to say the “usually” IS INDEED hyperbole in this case.
In an earlier post you mentioned his drop in production. Have you considered that his attempts were down this year (13.9 / gm last year, 12.3 per game this year). With a bigger focus on Bibby every other starter’s attempts were down, even JJ’s.
It IS true that his rebounding and shot blocking numbers were down, and I’m as frustrated as anyone about his lack of blocking out, but it’s disingenuous to mention a drop in scoring production without mentioning a drop in attempts.
And, as far as his rebounds and blocks being down, doc (who I trust in medical questions) allows that with a high ankle sprain, if you attempt to play too soon, you are reinjuring the small fibers and exacerbating the situation. doc says he wasn’t truly healthy all year (after the first 4 games). That does NOT excuse his failure to block out, but it might give a hint as to his numbers being down on blocks.
I’ll also say that in my opinion, some of what you are seeing as tunnel vision is coming from a sense of urgency that too few of our Hawks seem to have. Yes, yes, yes, he’s extremely impatient, but I truly believe that part of that is the lack of a coherent scheme.
I know you feel about Smith roughly the way SamRod does about Marvin, but I’ll just ask you to be FAIR in your criticism. And I’ll admit that this season overall, you HAVE been more evenhanded about Josh. But this last post just had to have a response.
Peace.