Legitimize your rise Hawks!
HAWKSVILLE - The Hawks are running out of chances to show everyone and to prove to everyone that they are the team they think they are, the team we thought they were a couple weeks ago.
It's show and prove time for Joe Johnson and the Hawks with Kobe Bryant's Los Angeles Lakers in town.
Three losses in their last four games, all three to teams among the NBA’s elite, have stirred up the doubters. And rightfully so.
So what can the Hawks do to legitimize their rise?
Just beat the Los Angeles Lakers today.
That’s all.
Just knock off arguably the best team in the league with the best player on the planet (according to most folks that would be one Kobe B. Bryant, though the LeBron James camp has a convincing argument for their guy these days).
In losses in Cleveland and to San Antonio and Boston in the last week, all the Hawks did was prove their doubters right about their inability to rise up to the challenge of facing the league’s best.
They were running on fumes minutes into the game in Cleveland last weekend. And they haven’t played their best since then, not even in a win over Minnesota Monday night and certainly not in the momentary spurts of quality play against the Tim Duncan-less Spurs and Kevin Garnett-less Celtics.
So what happened to the team with all that swagger we saw during that seven-game homestand?
“We’ve got to get that back,” said Hawks swingman Mo Evans. “Because if a team with Kobe on it smells any fear or lack of confidence, Kobe’s going to pounce. He won’t hesitate to take the game over anyway. But for a team that’s trying to stomp with the big boys, he’ll take that as a challenge and try and destroy ‘em”
Evans knows that as well as anyone. He played with the Lakers and saw Bryant’s drive first hand. He also started on an Orlando team last year that made the difficult climb from postseason dreamer to legitimate elite team.
That gives him a unique perspective on the Hawks’ current predicament.
Evans knows it takes a collective mettle that the Hawks have yet to display consistently to join the big boys, having played with a little bit of everyone during his time in the league.
Mo Evans knows it takes toughness to play with the big boys.
There have been spurts, and nobody can argue with a winning season after a decade of ugliness, but never enough of it on a daily basis to warrant their inclusion into the conversation about the league’s very best teams (and yes, a 3-12 record against the top three teams in the Eastern and Western Conference qualifies as the empirical data needed to prove that point).
Mike Bibby insists that Friday’s game against the Celtics wasn’t a statement game or anything of the sort, because the Hawks want to “win every game.” His reasoning: “We’re are still in the fourth spot and we can’t hang our heads. We just need to keep playing and try to keep the fourth spot.”
That’s exactly why these games against the Cavaliers, Celtics and Lakers are “statement” or “message” games. You win those games and you lock up the fourth spot and legitimize your rise all in the same stroke.
UNDER THE LIGHTS
For those of you that just can’t get enough for these Hawks, there’s an interesting show airing tonight on Fox SportSouth at 6:30, after the Hawks-Lakers game.
It’s a 30-minute snapshot of a NBA life called Under the Lights-Hawks Road Trip. There’s footage that is well worth watching (I know, I saw an advance copy Friday afternoon courtesy of the fine folks – namely Kate Hart – at Fox).
The cameras had access to some things I never get to see in person, like breakfast meetings on the road trip and locker room access at halftime and pregame, long after they jettison those of us in the media.
I spoke Saturday with Keith Wetzler, the producer of original programming for Fox (and also the man who produced that special on Joe Johnson, Dominique Wilkins‘ Hall of Fame induction show and those very helpful A-Town Dancers shows), and we talked about the delicate dance of trying to get behind the scenes without crossing the line.
“We were trying to take the fans into the places they’ve never been before,” Wetzler said. “Fans don’t get to see what goes on in the locker room, on the charter flights and in the breakfast meetings. We were a fly on the wall for the fans. The goal was two fold, take them into the places they’ve never seen before and show them personality they’ve never seen.”
Johnson showed off more of the personality we see from him at practice and in the locker room that is rarely on display during games (when most fans get their only glimpse of him). It’ll be surprising for some people to see him like that.
When I asked Wetzler if he was surprised at all by how comfortable the players were with the cameras constantly in their faces, he said he was not.
“I pretty much knew what to expect,” Wetzler said. “And it wasn’t a ‘get out of my face’ type deal. I explained to the [Hawks] what we were trying to do and they responded. We were there to show the entire experience and to bring the fans along for the ride.”
MS. KERI’S DEBUT
Before I depart for Philips and today’s game, I have to sell out for the First Lady of the Blog (for 2009) and give a rousing endorsement to Atlanta’s own Ms. Keri Hilson.
Her debut CD came out this week and It’s worth the purchase.
The First Lady's debut CD is in stores!
I’m an 80s baby and child of the Hip-Hop era, but an unabashed lover of R&B music. And while others love to proclaim most anything new DOA, I happen to dig a lot of the new stuff.
If you drive around this town as much as I do, you’re always looking for something new to listen to (when you’re not on your cell phone like all the thousands of folks that make my back and forth a chore), you’re always on the lookout for something good to listen to.
You might want to check her out, so your next drive to a Hawks’ game is enhanced by her beautiful sounds.
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206 comments Add your comment
Mike is back
March 30th, 2009
2:49 pm
HawksFan 11, it would be hard to disagree with you on the Josh trade, it’s annoying watching Josh go in to panic mode, every time the Hawks starts to sputter on offense, which is often. I still say that most of that is attributed to Woody’s offense, and no true floor leader on the team. In that Boston game in the third quarter when the wheel came off. JJ was clearly tick off the way the team was playing, but you never see him get in anybody face. He’s the consummate professional, some times to a fault. Leaders have to step up and lead, especially during adversity. Woody’s call three timeouts, and they came out flat every time. Josh has his miscues, but you win and loose as a team.
Astro Joe, it’s a simple way to keep Josh from hoisting up those ill-advised shots. Put his A on the pine, and hit’em in the pocket, asked Zaza.
I have to give him credit, HB ANDO MAN has been saying the same thing since we drafted Al. You gotta give him his props. The only problem with HB is his disdain for BK, usually overshadow his superlative prospective on the game.
Whether it’s Josh or Marvin, the Hawks have to come up with a package to get a quality Big. I would at lease start the wheel turning with Josh, that way teams will know we are serious, and Josh CAN GROW THE F UP. Some times change is the best thing.
I still don’t think it’s that simple as trading Josh and bring in a Big. Ultimately, it will come down to the HC. If you get a legit Big, and your offense is still design for the perimeters guys, what’s the use?
ant banks
March 30th, 2009
2:51 pm
inlight of woody’s progression in the wins columns, 13, 26, 30, 37+ playoffs, and this years 43+ wins season and 4th place in the east. can anyone see any reason WHY the hawks WOULD NOT bring woody back?
i know that the town is pretty much sick of his STYLE of offense, but dangit, it is workin’.
RLP
March 30th, 2009
2:52 pm
The biggest game on tap tonight (from a Hawks perspective) is between the Heat and the Magic at Miami. A Magic win will reduce the Hawks magic number against the Heat to 4. It is a big game for the Magic because they are fighting for home court against the Celtics in the second round. It is the game to follow tonight!
BA
March 30th, 2009
3:08 pm
Yeah doc, I’m not sure why Smith is such a polarizing figure for Hawks fans. Like the other players, he does some things exceptionally well but he has a number of flaws. But in that game Sunday, he was fighting down there in the post the whole game. He had a number of blocks and he really had Odom flustered. He fought every bit as hard as Pachulia for the boards (by the way I’m convinced Pachulia should be starting, even if Maurice is a good-luck charm).
No, Ant Banks- there is NO reason why the Hawks wouldn’t bring Woodson back. But don’t tell that to some of the cats around here…
doc
March 30th, 2009
3:09 pm
richie thanks again for the updates. lizards are sad, kind of remind me of the hawks a few years back.
Astro Joe
March 30th, 2009
3:16 pm
Ant, I heard a radio guy say this afternoon that Woody is like a fat man who is surprisingly healthy. When we first look at him, you want to criticize him. But upon closer inspection, you have to admit that he’s healthy and that the criticism may be less important than the fact that he is healthy (or in this case, the leader of a team with a homecourt playoff appearance).
Mike, I disgaree, Hawks don’t need a 36 minute a night center (and where do you find one anyway), just someone who can give us closer to 20 minutes on average. Horford is, in fact, NOT overmatched on most nights. Most of the time, a healthy front-court of Horford, Smith and Marvin will be more than capable of getting the job done. What we don’t have is that situational big man to come in when that front court is out-sized (or in foul trouble or when someone is hurt). I’d love to see the Hawks get Gortat from Orlando, dude appears to be a defensive jewel and may be affordable. I also like Rasho and have said so ad nauseum. He isn’t particularly mobile but he’s big and effective on both ends of the court. Gadzuric is expensive but seemingly is exactly the type of player we need. Darko would also be a nice pick-up, he can nail open jumpers and is a very effective shot-blocker.
While I am far from being a Smith fan (very far), someone would have to offer me a boat load before I deal him away. I truly believe that this nucleus deserves a chance to play with both a good PG and a good defensive center before we give up on the core.
ant banks
March 30th, 2009
3:24 pm
2nd question… is CLEVELAND CAVALIERS really THAT good at 60-13? i mean i have watched their games. saw them against the hawks at phillip’s and in cleveland, they really don’t impress me, despite their record and despite having LEBRON.
is anyone feelin’ me?
I MUS.WRITE
March 30th, 2009
3:25 pm
Smoove and our pick for The #1 pick…………. Sign Marvin and Draft Thabeet or B Griff to play with Horford. Iknow I know- Just wishful thinking lol……. Give me Patty Mills,Ty Lawson or Cole Aldrich if he’s there.
ant banks
March 30th, 2009
3:28 pm
ASTRO- that “healthy” fat man is me. lol
ant banks
March 30th, 2009
3:30 pm
ARIOSE-you want the Josh bashin’ to stop?? i want the woody bashin’ to stop. bashin’ either of these guys at this point in the season is preposterous.
richbrave
March 30th, 2009
3:37 pm
doc:
Exactly.
Ken Strickland
March 30th, 2009
3:44 pm
SEKOU-what’s the status of Marvin Williams? If he doesn’t return soon and get some game action and conditioning, he won’t be much help to us when the playoffs start. The same holds true for Acie Law, although he won’t likely see any playoff action anyway.
Samuel
March 30th, 2009
4:11 pm
I think we can hold Marvin out until the last 3 or 4 games and he can get back in shape. I would have him come off the bench though.
As much as I love Josh Smith’s game, I believe that it may be time for him to get a change of senery. He really looks confused on offense. He really needs to be in a system where he is better able to use his athleticism. Also, we are proving that we can win without JJ too.
JJ and Josh for Ellis, Jackson and Turiaf. Somebody mention McDyce? That would be an excellent pickup.
That brings me to a subject that’s near and dear to my heart. Mississippi.
Did yall know that Mississippi has more players on current NBA rosters than any other state “per capita”.(12). WOW!
Oh yea and Ando! You could have put up a better fight than that. Pathetic!
Woody=COY
Mike is back
March 30th, 2009
4:46 pm
Astro Joe, I agree. The scenario you present is a valid one. I would like to see the core stay together, I get annoyed when Josh takes those shots, but I am quickly reminded, that’s he’s straight out of High School, and Woody’s system is the only one he has played. For that reason I’m not convince we have seen all that Josh has to offer.
What I don’t want to see is a another young PG career wasted on Woody. I like All the Bigs you mentioned, I’ll take a pass on Darko. The marquee match-up against UConn and Michigan State should be a good test for Thabeet. If UConn wins the NCAA, which I think they will, then I think Thabeet will enter the draft. That’s my guy.
niremetal
March 30th, 2009
4:54 pm
Astro Joe,
I’m a fan of picking up an FA big man too, and I too think that Gortat would be a nice find. However, both Gortat and Gadzuric are 6′11 and less athletic than Horford, which means that Horford “plays bigger” than them in effect. Darko is the only one of those three who is a legit 7-footer, but he’s also got the least-imposing build. If we just are going for height, though, I’d probably make a run at Darko. Also, only Gortat is a FA this summer; Darko is locked up through next year and Gadzuric through 2011.
To quote myself from a couple threads ago:
And yes, we should re-sign Zaza. The only affordable big men on the market worth looking at are Mbenga, Foyle, and Gortat (lesser options include Magloire, Mihm, Robert Swift, Raef LaFrentz, and Jason Collins). Given all those options, I’d stick with Zaza, especially given Sund’s track record at signing big men. Foyle might be worth a hard look, though – he’s a great locker room guy. However, he’s not a 7-footer.
We could conceivably make a run at ‘Sheed, but I doubt we will. Same with Chris Kaman or Marcus Camby (although I’d trade Smoove for either in a flash).
doc
March 30th, 2009
5:10 pm
aj that is the most sensible thing you have said about josh this year if ever. no i wouldnt give him away without significant return. of the guys that signed this year he seems to have held his own despite his numbers being down. why would they be up when the trio of jj, bibby and flip take most of the shots. he and horford are our most efficient scorers, though not as steady as i would want them to be and can be quickly crowded out by larger teams. say what you want the guy is shooting about 50 % from the field. can he do better, you know i just bet he would be the first to say “yes, only way to find out is to feed me the ball steadily and let us find out”. as you pointed out he was taking these shots because it was where he was playing, short forward. that is why a seven footer with an outside shot would make it so very tough on teams trying to go big on us.
kwooden1
March 30th, 2009
5:34 pm
Great win last night!! Didn’t watch the game but saw highlights and looked at the box score. I’ve been watching a few of the Hawks games on tape and definitely see some of the root to their issues on offense. The Hawks run several different sets, I’m guessing 5+. The sets themselves are fine, the problem is that if they don’t get into a set properly or if it’s late in the shot clock they don’t have any options (i.e. Joe shoot!!) They need an offensive philosophy that takes advantage of their athletic abilities. I personally liked Eddie Jordan’s system or what the Jazz run, but either way something that works well for their players. They shouldn’t have to always figure out what set to run or get stuck thinking about the best set. When you watch the game you see a lot of guys trying to find their spots or just waiting around. I’ve watched the past Cleveland and Laker loses and they didn’t play that poorly on defense, they just couldn’t keep up in terms of scoring. I know Cleveland and the Lakers play great defense, but I think the Hawks have a lot of options they can exploit.
As for the summer and the draft, I think they should take the best available player and look to get a good price on Bibby and Marvin. Marvin’s your best asset, but I don’t believe you can trade for a big, so we should try and sign him. If they can get Speedy’s contract off the books they will have some more room. I believe their current Core has the potential to be a unique elite team, because of the speed and quickness they have at the C, PF and SF. I think another year of playoff maturity will go a long way.
GO HAWKS!!!
doc
March 30th, 2009
5:40 pm
oh dear, smack talk from the fantasy arena.
The Truth
March 30th, 2009
5:45 pm
Speaking of Acie Law, I’ve always admired his potential for the most part. Remember, he was haled by BK as the Hawks PG of the future. But his injury history is beginning to be a red flag on his resume given the few minutes per game he plays on average. It brings into question about his durability. I know that injury is common for most NBA players at some point in their careers. But because Acie is so young and so rarely used, his emerging injury prone image may alter his perception from other teams that might be otherwise interested in his services. We only need to look at Speedy to see how that could happen. There are other NBA players in the league that also suffers from the injury prone label, Greg Odom and Eddie Curry just to name a few. If there is a case to be made for the Hawks to look elsewhere for a promising PG, the main justification might be durability. Acie stock value keeps going down with the Dow every time he announces a new injury. I agree with a previous comment regarding Acie and Woody relationship, If Woody needs a legitimate bone to pick about Acie, than the subject of injury prone gives him some merit. Furthermore, if Acie is hoping to get dealt to his dream PG position elsewhere and away from Woody, his injury prone image might become the stumbling block issue. When you have a coach who coaches scared as some have suggested about Woody, than the last thing he need is to be forced to using an untested and injured prone PG as a starter (Assuming Bibby contract is not re-signed). If the ASG bought his case (in this hypothetical), Woody would, no doubt, breathe a sigh of relief knowing that his feared problem was dealt to another team or at least further down in his rotation as it is now. Remember, Woody is only interested in feeding his family, nothing more.
Rod from College Park
March 30th, 2009
5:45 pm
Melvin,
I agree. I think Jarrett Jack is the answer to all of our problems at the guard position. Have wanted him for the Hawks since his draft day.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 30th, 2009
6:21 pm
“As much as I love Josh Smith’s game, I believe that it may be time for him to get a change of senery. He really looks confused on offense. He really needs to be in a system where he is better able to use his athleticism.”
“Woody=COY”
…………………………………..
Najeh Davenpoop
March 30th, 2009
6:22 pm
“Ant, I heard a radio guy say this afternoon that Woody is like a fat man who is surprisingly healthy. When we first look at him, you want to criticize him. But upon closer inspection, you have to admit that he’s healthy and that the criticism may be less important than the fact that he is healthy”
The fat man may be surprisingly healthy at age 20, but he’s still more likely to die before the normal-sized guy.
jhan
March 30th, 2009
6:54 pm
Samuel – you should have taken Ando up on his pre-season fantasy bet. You’d have a check coming to you right now! LOL
I agree with AJ – I’d like to see this squad have another season together with a legit 7′ back-up & another shooter off the bench.
cheese
March 30th, 2009
7:23 pm
thank you Lori for bringing in positive statements!!! im tired of all the negative things being said even though the hawks are winning. we need more fans like you.
on another note i just recently went to a golden state warriors game at oracle arena. warriors played the 76rs and that place was a playoff atmosphere compared to philips arena. those people support thier teams no matter how bad the team is and what game it is. i highly doubt atlanta will ever be like that and i can only wish. with that being hawks fans need to start being more positive and stop hating on every thing that the hawks have going wrong.
Astro Joe
March 30th, 2009
7:38 pm
jhan, sad thing is Ando offered me double or nothing on the $100 bet that the Hawks wouldn’t make the playoffs and that he would do better than me in Fantasy. Oh well, I’ll settle for the $100 and Ando’s humiliation that you, Sam, Manny and myself represent the Fantasy version of Sekou’s Final Four.
doc, at first, I thought you were referring to the hand-written coaching advice from Woody (only sensible thing I’ve said regarding Josh). Oh well.
Ariose
March 30th, 2009
7:42 pm
You guys think Jarret Jack is the answer? Hah! You guys should visit a Blazers blog and see what they have to say about Jack. The fact that Steve Blake is considred an upgrade over Jack to them, and the fact that they traded him to Indiana for the rights to Bayless should tell you something. I’m just sayin’…
Remeber that “off-night” he had against Atlanta the last time we played Indiana? Well, according to the Blazer faithful it’s a very common recurring theme.
~Sir Links A Lot~
Blast
March 30th, 2009
8:02 pm
A point of note. Hawks ended another great team’s winning streak. Lakers were 5-0 coming to Philips and playing well on the road.
Y’all see that dude in the purple suit at the game yesterday? WTF? He obviously came expecting a Laker win. Eat crow, purple suit, as you trek home heart broken.
I’ve griped for years about that Sacramento/LA series. That was the beginning of the end for the Kings. Can you say highway robbery?
Can’t wait for the game tomorrow. Can’t believe we only have 8 more regular season games left b/f the season ends. It went by so fast! Hawks have really made my summer, regardless of how they end up. Guess time flies when you are having fun. Great to be a Hawks fan!
Go Hawks!
Astro Joe
March 30th, 2009
8:13 pm
Najeh, I doubt that Phil Jackson would have this roster any further than the 4th slot.
Ariose, I’m not a huge Jack fan but he has played well this year when he has been able to play more of a “combo” position and less as a pure PG. With a quality “offensive coordinator”, we could figure out a way to put up 100 points without a shot-happy PG… a scheme that would involve our front-court who have all shown the ability to put up 16+ each game (including that oft-disrespected guy who is absent).
Speaking of which, doc, do you really think that Smith is more efficient than Marvin?
Samuel
March 30th, 2009
8:16 pm
Naj,
Don’t get me wrong, I love Josh as a player. I just believe the hometown pressure is starting to get to him mentally. I hope it doesn’t come back to haunt us in the playoffs but he really isn’t comming close on his freethrows and that’s scary comming from your 4 man. We can overcome it but I really don’t like what i’m seeing.
Actually Joe i’m glad I didn’t take Ando up on that bet. The man has a new “BABY”. I wouldn’t feel right.
I guess the cream did rise to the top.
“Woody=COY”
niremetal
March 30th, 2009
9:13 pm
Well, if we want to talk about scoring efficiency…
Marvin actually has the highest “True Shooting Percentage” among Hawks starters (he’s at .565), TS% being a measure that takes into account both field goal and free throw percentage. Josh has the lowest (.516) and JJ second-lowest (.532). Zaza (.581) has the highest among our 8-man rotation.
Believe it or not, Bibby has the highest “Effective FG%” among our starters, eFG% being a measure that takes into account the fact that 3 pointers are worth more than 2 pointers. Bibby’s is .522, just ahead of Horford’s .520. Marvin is at .499 and Josh (.493) and JJ (.488) again are last among starters. Mo (.535) leads our 8-man rotation with Flip (.517) and Zaza (.512) near the middle of the pack.
See this link for more info:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2009.html
niremetal
March 30th, 2009
9:15 pm
Well, if we want to talk about scoring efficiency…
Marvin actually has the highest “True Shooting Percentage” among Hawks starters (he’s at .565), TS% being a measure that takes into account both field goal and free throw percentage. Josh has the lowest (.516) and JJ second-lowest (.532). Zaza (.581) has the highest among our 8-man rotation.
Believe it or not, Bibby has the highest “Effective FG%” among our starters, eFG% being a measure that takes into account the fact that 3 pointers are worth more than 2 pointers. Bibby’s is .522, just ahead of Horford’s .520. Marvin is at .499 and Josh (.493) and JJ (.488) again are last among starters. Mo (.535) leads our 8-man rotation with Flip (.517) and Zaza (.512) near the middle of the pack.
See this link for more info.
richbrave
March 30th, 2009
9:40 pm
Ariose:
Against the WIZARDS the other night he was a monster, but what do you expect against a team with no team defense.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 30th, 2009
10:28 pm
Dammit… does any comment with links get caught up in the “awaiting moderation” web or is there some kind of juice Ariose and MannyT have that allows them to post links?
Najeh Davenpoop
March 30th, 2009
10:32 pm
I don’t know if my previous comment will get moderated or not, but here it is without links:
Sam, that’s not what I was talking about. I was talking about your statement that he looks confused on offense because the system doesn’t allow him to use his athleticism. Doesn’t it directly fall on Woody to implement an offense that allows their players to take advantage of their strengths?
AJ, maybe not, but I’m pretty sure a Phil Jackson-coached Hawks team wouldn’t have allowed losses like the 121-87 defeat by Orlando or the loss to Charlotte earlier this month to happen to them. I’m not saying the fact that the fat guy is healthy isn’t important, but it would obviously help him if he lost the weight anyway.
And I realize Phil Jackson isn’t sitting with the bums by the Philips Arena MARTA station waiting for someone to hire him — to me this is the main argument for keeping Woodson, that most of the available replacements are probably more like Isiah Thomas than Phil Jackson. But I don’t think that means Woody has reached the status yet where his strengths outweigh his weaknesses. Maybe it wouldn’t make them a contender, but I definitely think the Hawks would be much closer to elite than they are right now if they had a good coach.
Big Ray
March 30th, 2009
10:42 pm
Astro Joe,
Always knew you didn’t like Smith. I’ve always agreed that if it makes the team better, then trade him. Same goes for anybody else on the roster, although some I would be more unhappy with moving (Horford). The problem is, who do you trade for, and how do you make it work? And every time I ask THAT question, I get the most bizarre answers. It’s all good though, because he could very well be gone this summer, and then there would be less to complain about for some people. If he is, I just hope he becomes a better player. Not as much as I hope this becomes a better team, mind you. I like Josh, but I’m a HAWKS fan….Anyway, I think Josh detractors will have a better shot at happiness then Woody detractors. Get your party hat and confetti ready.
By the way, your suggestion of Kirk Hinrich is the most sound. I like Jarrett Jack (and if I recall correctly, you didn’t think much of him back in the day…or was that Ando? I can’t remember), but I don’t see what he can do that Acie can’t do with the same amount of playing time. Of course, if you’re one of those guys who thinks Acie is another wasted lottery pick, then it’s a moot point. Maybe he is, but the proof just isn’t there on EITHER side of that argument.
However, I agree all too well with the idea of acquiring a fairly young veteran pg like Hinrich. It just works better that way because Woody is either too uncomfortable or simply unable to coach up a young pg who isn’t an instant success type (and you know who I’m talking about, but let’s not go there). And you said it yourself: we can get by without a high-scoring, shoot-happy pg just fine (I’d rather have a guy who defends and penetrates anyway). The trick to it is having a better offensive strategy (hence the coordinator comment). Well, I know you like Woody. But I’m curious as to how you figure this offensive coordinator thing is going to work. Woodson is “the man” on the sidelines. It’s his way or no way. And lately (try the last 5 years), I haven’t seen a lot of offensive innovation. Just sayin’…
Mike is Back,
Interesting point. Smith is straight out of high school, and all he’s ever known in the NBA as far as head coaches has been Woody. While I won’t blame Woody for Josh’s personality or character, surely he has something to do with Josh’s development. Funny, when people want to give him credit, they talk about Woody doing such a good job with this team, having been dealt a bad hand and all this other stuff (sometimes people can’t decide who they want to defend more, Knight or Woodson, but you can’t do both at the same time). Well guess what? That is a two-edged sword.
When you get credit for the product that’s on the floor, you get credit for the successes…and the failings. Anything else is a double standard.
doc
March 30th, 2009
10:48 pm
ba saw your comments belatedly and concur.
aj, this team goes no where if josh is not at the top of his game defensively as that is where they will have to start any success. my comments were more the line of for time spent with the ball the bigs are more efficient than the smalls. i consider marvin in there with the smalls; since he isnt playing i really didnt even consider him. he may be done. josh is still right up there league wise on blocks even with a bad wheel most of the season. just playing with you on the remark as down as you have been on him at least you recognize his value.
nire interesting stuff, were you surprised at how low jj ranked. where does kobe and d wade fit.
Big Ray
March 30th, 2009
10:49 pm
Samuel,
Your comments about Josh Smith really do strike a chord. I think you’re right about him, and the pressures. And some of the things he does are still just crazy. Maybe a change of scenery will do wonders for him. All I’m really concerned with is getting good player/players in return. I don’t want some stiff that Sund is out there fantasizing about. I don’t want some journeyman that will pass right through here in a year. I want a good fit, not a quick fix. I also want a million dollars, but that ain’t happening…Anyway, that’s my only concern.
And this team will have to become better defensively, as a unit. If moving Josh does that, and the team is more efficient offensively, then so be it.
Also, interesting comments you made on JJ. That is something to think about and consider. He may want to move along as it is. But again, it has to be a good trade. It will be interesting what is decided as far as who this core is to be built around. I still say this team can be built around JJ and Horford, but some things would still have to change. But if not JJ, then whom do you build the team around? Horford is one nomination. After that, (and if you’re excluding JJ), it’s either Marvin or Smoove (or both). Gettin’ kinda tricky at that point.
RLP
March 30th, 2009
11:00 pm
Heat lose. They are now tied with Philly in the loss column and our magic number to be higher seeded against then has been reduced to four with 8 to play. If we go 4 and 4 the rest of the way we will be no lower than the fifth seed giving us a better chance to advance to the second round since we will not be playing one of the top three.
niremetal
March 30th, 2009
11:01 pm
The relationship between Josh and Woody reminds me in a lot of ways of the relationship between Iverson and Larry Brown, although it should be obvious that Josh is not nearly as talented nor as focused a player as Iverson and that Woody has nowhere near the coaching acumen of Brown. But the same dynamic appears to be at work with them – the player has a big ego that is (paradoxically?) easily bruised, and the coach is demanding and has a blunt manner. The match may seemed doom to fail on the surface, but at the same time it’s easy to see that the coach and player push each other to greater heights. After their latest locker room confrontation about a month ago, we all saw Smoove go on a tear and Woody start to coach better. The result was a 7-0 homestand.
It’s interesting. I honestly think that keeping Josh around might actually be best for both of them in terms of their development as a player and a coach. I don’t buy for a second that there is a coach in the NBA not named Phil or Greg who could get through to Josh any better than Woody already does. And I think that Woody is a better coach as a result of having Josh around to push his buttons. But of course, that does not mean, that the team is better off having them both around.
Big Ray
March 30th, 2009
11:22 pm
Co-sign Najeh on Woody. He’s not worthless. And he’s probably better than a lot of guys who don’t have jobs (at least for this franchise). But being out of a job doesn’t make you any more of a failure than being a first-timer. Everybody has to start somewhere. Besides, when guys like Mike Dunleavy can keep THEIR jobs…and well all know the head coaching job is the hardest job to keep in the NBA.
Look, just want Woody to grow to be better. A little quicker, I might add. Surely that’s not too much too ask, when we ask the same of our players. Woody has been a head coach for the same amount of time Josh has been a player, right? Here’s the difference: Woody was a “top assistant” coach in the NBA longer than Josh has been playing organized b-ball….
Niremetal,
Interesting stats. I can only hope Marvin returns to form, and that one day (freakin’ soon) he’s allowed to do more in the offense than he does now. It’s almost a waste otherwise….why have a weapon you don’t use enough?
Ill-logical,
Intersting view point on Acie Law and how Woody feels about him. Trust is not earned easily or quickly. But Woody would do well to figure it out, “back spasms” or not. A guy named Poppovich didn’t toss a wild kid named Parker to the curb. He sure could have. Parker was a turnover machine who didn’t play very good defense.
How many other guys do you suppose are playing through those same pains? Didn’t Bibby have the sniffles for a bit? He didn’t play. And when he did, it was damn awful. Hell, I WANTED him to sit, it was obvious he wasn’t himself. Besides, it’s not like Acie is always out with something. His wrist injury last year was legit. And how badly would YOU want to play through an injury for a guy like Woodson? Play well in one game, get a DNP the next as your reward. Play 27 minutes tonight and record 16/3/3, with the best +/- on the team. Tomorrow night your reward is 6 minutes. Huh. I can’t imagine how motivating that is. Woody didn’t have jack to say about Law until all these tough game started coming up (when he knew Bibby was going to get roasted out there). Just sayin’…
Big Ray
March 30th, 2009
11:30 pm
Niremetal,
Interesting point. But you forgot a thing or two. Iverson was so damn talented that he could take over a game at any time. But he ROUTINELY disrespected Brown and his teammates by missing or being late for practice, team shootarounds, team meetings, flights, etc. And he did that for YEARS. Josh may have cussed Woody a few times, and I certainly don’t condone that in any way, but he never has shown this level of disrespect, and he’s not the team captain (or even considered the leader or best player). Of course, scoring 30ppg (and taking all the shots) will tend to mask such things over for the average fan.
Josh is not the team leader, even though he can be a distraction. Iverson was, and he was the greatest distraction of all, while playing for a proven coach in Brown. Like I said, 30ppg will change the view of all of that…always has, always will. But the precedent itself cannot be ignored.
Big Ray
March 30th, 2009
11:31 pm
Niremetal,
Your last sentence resonates the most, though. Could be true. We’ll see, won’t we?
niremetal
March 31st, 2009
12:11 am
Doc,
Wade’s TS% is .571. Kobe’s is .558. JJ’s is .532. It’s a bit closer on eFG% – Wade is .513, Kobe is .498, and JJ is .488.
For what it’s worth, when JJ was at his productivity peak in 2006-2007, his TS% was .558 and his eFG% was .523 – freakish for someone who bore as heavy an offensive load as he did.
Those stats are a bit loaded, of course. Even though they take into account the fact that 3-pointers are worth more, they still show a serious bias towards post players and spot-up shooters. Guys who score a lot of points off the dribble – like Wade, Kobe, MJ…and JJ – tend to slide way down on those “efficiency” rankings. I mean, if you go on TS%, Kevin Martin is the best backcourt player in the NBA today.
My impression based on looking at those stats is this – the best way to build a contender from an offensive standpoint is to have 1 guy who can score in bunches. If that guy is efficient (like Larry or Magic), great. If not (like Isiah or Michael), then make sure you surround that guy with efficient players.
doc
March 31st, 2009
7:02 am
nire, seems it is kind of what i was driving at, folks that keep the ball in their possession and dont score with either big points at the foul line or dont shoot well from the field say by taking 20 to 25 shots to get 18 points are not efficient. we seem to get caught up in the totals instead of how quickly they were gotten. to me, this year jj has flagged a bit more than in the past. said ti earlier in the season and was trounced as a hata. seems the numbers justify my comments a bit.
i also said just about the same thing you did when i said woody and josh need each other to round off their edges a bit. laughingly i said josh should be given as much credit for the run as woody since he reacted to woody, cleared the air and then didnt sulk but went on a rampage. doubt either one knew as the outburst occurred how it would turn out but was an accumulation of each of their own frustrations.
ultimately this team doesnt have the players or the system to outscore anybody. it will go as far as the defense takes it so the relevant numbers might be more how efficient they are on stops. when they play that way they make offensive opportunities. when they dont or get sloppy and start running they fall flat.
good info nire, thanks. i also like to go to 82 games and see how the numbers look with certain combinations of players. funny how zaza tends to “score” pretty well in those team plus/minus categories along with jj and josh. interestingly enough, marvin usually sucks.
dont know but wonder if their are statistics that show what a guy does with rest vs. on back to back games. that might be more the tale of the tape for playoffs since there are no back to backs. the piece that one has to have for the most part is home court unless a key player has an injury that derails a superior team in the playoffs which is what happened to phoenix the year jj got hurt and had to sit most of its series with the spurs. fourth seed is vital and seems like the guys are going to lock it down sooner rather than later.
kwooden1
March 31st, 2009
7:57 am
doc, I agree about the winning through defense. I watched the last Celtics loss last night and they only started to come back once they got stops and were able to push the ball off fastbreaks. They have several set plays that are effective, but their overall offensive system is lacking. I’m not sure if they haven’t truly bought in, or if its the wrong system, but it’s not effective against good defenses.
For the game tonight, they are going to have to shoot the ball well and hit the boards. They don’t have to push the ball as much but I think Horford is going to have to score more inside. Philly’s going to double JJ and force JS to shoot from the outside. Evans is going to get some looks because of all the double teaming, so he going to have to knock them down. I hope Bibby comes ready to pass the ball because they are a lot better when he’s penetrating and making plays.
PLAYOFF Basketball Sounds good to me!!
GO HAWKS!!
ajw
March 31st, 2009
7:58 am
I was at the laker game, and I was absolutely disgusted by the crowd cheering for the visitors. Kobe is such a jerk. There is really nothing likable about the guy, other than his basketball game. I wish there was some way to trade away 70% of the home crowd. This has to be a big reason why free agents don’t want to come here. Basketball fans in Atlanta are awful.
dap01
March 31st, 2009
8:17 am
The Hawks record is improving DESPITE of Woody. He is terrible in every area of coaching. He was hired because he was the cheapest option for our disfunctional owners. He remained last year because he was the cheapest option for a bunch of disfunctional owners.
I love the Hawks and yes, they have promise. But it is also frustrating to be this many years into a total rebuilding, this many years into lottery after lottery and still have a poorly balanced team, a coach who does not fit the players, a mystery GM who is quietly doing nothing and a bunch of owners whose only focus is court proceedings.
doc
March 31st, 2009
8:51 am
ajw, there is a core of hawks fans that come to games. funny 15000 have sounded pretty impressive, not like it was for the playoffs but loud enough. the problem with that is it leaves about 5000 seats “open” for relocation folks to atlanta to buy up when there team or favorite star comes in. they fill the seats and make some noise. the best way to stop them is to win and develop a larger core of fans that are willing to pay put for season tix. winning helps and the better job the basg does the better it will be to keep others out of ear shot.
until then i welcome those that come. it helps our hawks as it provides revenue stream to get more players if the basg decides to go that route. double edged sword to complain about those folks as they are paying top dollar for those seats and it indirectly helps us devoted hawks fans. of course ajw, it is your right to go out and buy up those seats to keep them out.
Astro Joe
March 31st, 2009
9:26 am
Ray, trust me, I don’t “like” Woodson. But I’m a bottom line kind of guy and while I had empiracle evidence to rant against him when we were winning 30 or less games, I personally feel foolish doing so this season. We’re all guilty of biases. Marvin clearly was having a better season this year. Better 3-ball, nice running hook in the lane, much better on-ball defense and improved rebounding. Yet some still want to criticize him because he isn’t graceful or because of what BK did on draft night. Neither of those criticisms hold water to the results and the evidence of watching him for those 50+ games this season. Smith has significantly reduced his 3-ball shooting yet some fans have that stuck in his head. I personally don’t think that he should ever shoot a 3 ball with more than 3 seconds on the shot clock, ever, but evidence shows that he is shooting less 3-balls. So I guess if some are willing to recognize Smith’s progress or Marvin’s progress, then I am hard pressed to continue to scream about Woody. Much like I think Smith is an undisciplined, selfish player who won’t likely realize his vast potential (certainly not in Atlanta), I also think that Woody is a stubborn control-freak who is limited in his ability to make game-time adjustments. But the warts on both Smith and Woody (and Joe, Bibby, Horford, Marvin, Mo, Flip, Acie, Zaza, etc) have been well-enough concealed this season that I simply have decided to enjoy the ride. And yes, sometimes I even try to defend them (mostly Woody)… just because I think it’s foolish to use the same criticisms in a 45+ win season as we did in the 26-win season. We all have a blind-spots when it comes to individuals associated with this team.
Ray, I mentioned in a later post that I am not a Jarrett Jack fan (it was me that you were thinking about). But he seems to play better when he is a “combo” guard as opposed to a classic PG. And obviously with JJ, no PG would be expected to truly be a John Stockton-type. But let there be no doubt, Kirk Hinrich is the guy I want. He’s my top choice and the next choice wouldn’t even come close. I just don’t know that we have the assets to make it happen but he is far and away at the top of my PG wish list.
doc
March 31st, 2009
9:36 am
not to be contrarian i agree with your views there aj. pragmatic i am more than contrarian. heh heh
no reason to run either woody or josh off or marvin for that matter. just have to be aware of their strengths and weaknesses. i still think the odd couple can make each other better just by the abrasive quality of their “love’ for each other. kind of reminds me something of the blog, eh?