General Hawkspital
Luke and Laura or Josh and Woody?
HAWKSVILLE – So we’re back to this are we?
Feuds between Hawks coach Mike Woodson and his players isn’t anything new around here. But I have to admit, I thought it was a thing of the past.
I foolishly assumed that last year’s playoff run and this past summer’s realization that things had to get better from there was the end of all the drama.
And then Friday night happened and the Hawks locker room turned into an episode of General Hawkspital, the Hawks produce more drama in a season than Luke and Laura did in 20 years together.
It’s not clear exactly what words got tossed back and forth between Woodson and longtime co-star Josh Smith. But it’s safe to assume that they weren’t talking about catching a movie together on the next off day.
What became abundantly clear as the media scrambled through the Hawks’ locker room before tonight’s game against Detroit at Philips Arena is that whatever fences that needed to be mended got the treatment required.
Smith was smiling. Woodson, too. It was no doubt the product of an earlier face-to-face between the two where they (once again) hashed out their differences, promised to try and do better and then went their separate ways.
The only glitch in this entire process is that these two guys are joined at the wrist (no handcuffs needed). They’ll share the blame this summer if this season continues to spiral out of control for the Hawks, who are in need of major boost with just 20 games left in the season and the official chase for the fourth spot in the Eastern Conference already in full stride.
You’d think that would be clear to them by now. Smith is the only player still here from Woodson’s first day of training camp in 2004.
I suspect they’ll never be super close. Sometimes guys just don’t mix well, their personalities clash. But in the meantime, they might want to find a way to work together so the Hawks don’t take a promising season and dump it in the trash.
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289 comments Add your comment
jhan
March 8th, 2009
11:23 pm
From cheese’s link-
“Josh is super talented. There’s more coaches in the league that can do what Woodson does than Forwards that can do what Josh does.”
I wish I had thought of that one.
jhan
March 8th, 2009
11:25 pm
From cheese’s link:
“Josh is super talented. There’s more coaches in the league that can do what Woodson does than Forwards that can do what Josh does”
Wish I would have thought of that one.
niremetal
March 8th, 2009
11:55 pm
TskOoOo,
I’ll rephrase. When both teams involved in a trade are over the cap, each team can only receive about as much in salary as it trades away. However, if one team is over the cap and another isn’t, the over-the-cap team can trade a player to the under-the-cap team without taking back anything in salary, so long as that trade would not take the under-the-cap team over the cap. With a twist, that’s how the Clippers were able to acquire Camby. They had a certain amount of cap space “earmarked” to re-sign Elton Brand, based on the amount of Brand’s previous salary. Once Brand signed with another team, they had a short period of time (30 days, I think) in which they could use that “earmarked” cap space to sign or trade for another player. That “earmarked” cap space could be treated as if it were space under the cap. Camby’s salary fit within the earmarked cap space. Thus, the Clippers were able to trade for him without running afoul of the salary cap rules.
Mike is back
March 9th, 2009
12:12 am
Doc, we fought hard, but we went done after three OTs in the Sub Regional at Dalton on Saturday. We lost by 1. It was a heart breaker, but that how it goesssssss!!!! That it’s for basketball, now the focus is college, and academics. I am proud of the girls, they played their hearts out. Right now my pumpkin is a Knight headed to Central Florida, but we are still waiting to hear from Cornell and Vanderbilt.
Didn’t see the game, but glad to hear the Hawks won!!!!I had a chance to meet Josh when my daughter was running track. I met him at an AAU Track meet at Marietta High the year we drafted him. As soon as one of my friends told that was Josh, I went right over to speak him. Josh is good guy. He spoke to us, and he was hanging out like everybody else, not some problem child Pre-Madana.
I want begin to try to justify Josh play, but when it’s all said and done, I believe Josh will redeem himself. Glad to hear Josh said he wanted to get back to playing his old style and having fun.
GO JOSH, AND GO HAWK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TskOoOo
March 9th, 2009
12:18 am
Thanks, Niremetal. This salary stuff is confusing.
doc
March 9th, 2009
12:59 am
mike glad to hear of the success and it was. scholarship bound?
HB Ando
March 9th, 2009
2:14 am
TskOoOo, is your real name Billy Knight? Just wondering……
Daniel
March 9th, 2009
8:22 am
Just wanted to say…
That I hope, and I mean HOPE, that Josh and Woodson have worked something out. They both share the blame and credit for this team’s record. If Josh can continue to play like he did against Detroit, then our team are serious. If not, the whole thing goes down. Please, please, please Josh keep your head on straight and play within yourself!
ILL-logical
March 9th, 2009
9:46 am
The focus on Josh Smith and his on court activity has missed one important factor to date:
Since he has been a Hawk, the only constant has been change regarding his posistion . He ,along with Josh chilldress was drafted as a 3 or small forward. The next year, the team draftes a 3 in the first round. The next year ,Josh was shifted to the 4 or poewr forward, notwithstanding his lack of size and or experience. Then , the team drafted a 4,in the first round on TWO successive drafts-Sheldon Williams and Al Horford.
What does that all mean? Don’t know for sure but it looks as if there is some confusion on the part of one or many decision makers regarding Josh. Wich brings me to my main point.
Assuming that all of these changes were based on some sort of theory, why hasn’t Josh been given any time at the 3, especially on defense considering the LaBrons and Pual Pierces of the world? Every NBA coach/observer that I have read over the last few years has placed Josh at the 3., especially those who favored a run and gun style. This established wisdom has appearently did not reach the hallowed halls of Hawkdom.Or the local media.
The shame in this whole situation is that the goat horns are going to be firmly affixed on one or both of these individuals,neither of whom is a bad person according to my sources. However, there are issues to be sure and it would be a shame if the responsible adult in this scenerio doesn’t think outside of his ego and do what is best for the team.
jhan
March 9th, 2009
9:59 am
Al Horford talking about him & Josh -“There’s no doubt about it,” Horford said. “It’s going to be hard to get away from us when we’re both playing well like that”
Think he was talking to his coach & starting guards through the media?
Al Horford impresses me more every time I watch him play or listen to what he says.
Big Ray
March 9th, 2009
10:16 am
Ill-logical,
The sad thing is that what you say is all too true. Smith will share the fate of scapegoat with Woodson. Not that Woodson leaving would put tears in my beer. But hey, if he’s as good as Samuel says he is, then surely he won’t have trouble landing another job. Hell, a COY candidate like him is so good, other teams will fire their coaches just to get him………………………..right?
Hawks sweep the Pistons? | Crashing the Glass
March 9th, 2009
10:43 am
[...] another weak 4-rebound performance in the first two quarters. It was reported by Sekou Smith on ajc.com that Smith and Hawks coach Mike Woodson had a heated confrontation in the Atlanta locker room [...]
dmortone
March 9th, 2009
10:47 am
From Elias Sports Bureau on ESPN.com
The Hawks beat the Pistons 87-83, sweeping their three-game season series with Detroit. Atlanta has now completed three season sweeps of at least three games this season, having gone 4-0 against the Wizards and 3-0 against the Bulls. In the previous nine seasons (1999-2000 through 2007-08), the Hawks only went 3-0 or better against an opponent three times. Atlanta went 4-0 against Cleveland in 2002-03, 4-0 against Indiana in 2005-06 and 4-0 against New York in 2007-08.
As bad as the Hawks may seem at times, we’re still in the best season we’ve had in a decade
TskOoOo
March 9th, 2009
10:49 am
I reread an article comparing Joe and Kobe after the two teams played a couple weeks ago.
Important notes:
“I just think Kobe is head and shoulders above everybody in terms of his tenacity and will to compete, that killer attitude and instinct that he has,” Shaw said.”
“I think you see a little bit of the mental edge [with Bryant] as far as the confidence level, as far as winning championships and having a greater level of success,” Evans said. “When [the Hawks] played Boston last year and they went to Game 7, Kobe’s been in situations where he’s actually won that game and had that type of success. Once Joe gets that under his belt, I think he can start playing on that level.”
“Johnson’s teammate Josh Smith, playing Odom’s same position, finished the game with zero boards. You think Johnson challenged Smith to do that (go for 20 boards)?”
So basically we just need to see Joe challenge his teammates more and win that big game. Come on, Joe
Melvin
March 9th, 2009
11:34 am
dmortone, had we played better in Charlotte on Friday nite, we could have added them to that list…. Oh well, let’s see if we can used the broom on New Orleans tonite….
ant banks
March 9th, 2009
11:44 am
anybody break down how we match up against the hornets? the spread is n.o. -1.5. i am thinkin’ that n.o. will maul us, based on how we have been playin’ against lesser tiered teams.
TskOoOo
March 9th, 2009
11:47 am
I think we will win tonight.
First, someone needs to show Joe this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04mPu4PhGBI
Can he please get some explosiveness back? Is he hurt? I feel like he’s had 2 good games since December and that he hasn’t had a 30 point game since November.
If Horf and Smoove can play together and help each other out, we will do very well on this homestand. I sure hope Joe can be ready to explode soon though.
For New Orleans, we all know CP3 has had this game circled for months. And we know Bibby can’t guard anyone. So let’s give CP3 his 30 points, but let’s shut down the rest of the team. That means to box out David West (who is that?) and not let him take open shots.
O'brien
March 9th, 2009
12:28 pm
If Bibby has to guard CP3, it will be a long night. I think they can give Acie a few minutes on CP3.
I agree with TskOoOo. Let CP3 get his, but stifle everybody else. We need another big game from Josh, and I hope Marvin is ok to play tonight. It would be nice if he has a good game too.
bigeasy830
March 9th, 2009
1:34 pm
The Hawks are on pace to win 45 games. The only way we do trades is for salary cap reasons. If the Hawks win 45 and get the 4th seed then win a 1st round play-off series, I say no way you fire Coach Woodson. I hate his offense or lack of offense scheme. But you cannot deny the fact that the Hawks record wise are improving and should be considered improving at an acceptable pace. I to hate tha fact that we just lost two games to teams we should have beaten. I also think that the team is inconsistent, But, We are still young and definitely improving.
TskOoOo
March 9th, 2009
1:45 pm
As for the Woodson vs. Smith feud, you have to go with Woodson on this one.
One can claim that our offense consists of Joe pounding the ball, but Smoove never moves on offense without the ball.
Also, in terms of coachable players, Horford, Marvin Gaye, and Joe have all thrived under Woodson. Smoove and Salim, not so much. Acie seems like he’d be coachable, but his style doesn’t fit our “offense.”
Sometimes I wish that the Hawks could fire Woodson and he could coach the UGA team. I think he’d really teach some defense to those guys.
Melvin
March 9th, 2009
1:56 pm
TskOoOo, when you compare the career stats for Marvin, AL, and Josh. Josh stats are better. So how can you say Marvin and Horford thrive under Wooody and Josh hasn’t????
Melvin
March 9th, 2009
1:57 pm
On another note….
For all the Chris Paul and Brandon Roy debates. I offer this one comment/opinion. As we know, Hawks did have a chance to draft both guys but I believe we would only had an opportunity to draft (in which we did) one of the following guys: Paul, Roy, or Horford. If we would have drafted Paul then I don’t think we would have been in a position to draft Roy, like wise for Horford had we had drafted Roy. So the question is, who would you rather have Paul, Roy, or Horford?????
Astro Joe
March 9th, 2009
2:08 pm
Melvin, in order… Paul, Horford & Roy.
Hawks got hurt by allowing Diaw to be a distributor last week, when they should have forced him to be a scorer. I’d treat CP3 like you should all great PGs (like Nash & Kidd most recently), lock-down his teammates and force him to score. We may still lose but I think it greatly improves the odds. Hornets have become a motivated crew since the Chandler trade was reversed. They seem to recognize that this group of players will most likely be disbanded in the summer so they are on a mission.
Oh and one more thing, has Bibby had a good game this season against an elite PG? I don’t think so.
Tonight would be a good time to activate Speedy.
fudd21
March 9th, 2009
2:22 pm
Melvin, I’d rather have Paul, Roy, and then Horford in that order. Even though I believe Roy’s development would be stymied some here with so many other wings.
ant banks
March 9th, 2009
2:50 pm
**big ray or ando** any break downs on tonights game against n.o.?
AyAr
March 9th, 2009
2:51 pm
Enough about the “old Josh.” I’d love to have him back, but what about the “old Joe.” The “old Josh,” can’t take us nearly as far as the “old Joe” can. Who lately, the last three months, has more often than not looked like an “old” Joe.
Melvin
March 9th, 2009
3:40 pm
Agreed, AyAr…
Rod from College Park
March 9th, 2009
3:42 pm
Melvin,
Good comments again. I don’t know why we are the only ones that see that Josh’s stats are better. I guess the response will be stats don’t tell the whole story. LOL. For the Hawks, I would rather have Paul, Horford, then Roy.
TskOoOo
March 9th, 2009
4:01 pm
Melvin, I don’t think Josh Smith has gotten that much better since he joined the NBA. He’s still a freakishly athletic and immature tweener. Marvin has progressively gotten better, as has Horford. And maybe his numbers are better because he’s been in the league longer and takes more shots per game?
Melvin
March 9th, 2009
4:25 pm
TskOoOo, If I was crafty as MannyT or Ariose, I would send you links to Josh rookie year on youtude vs now. Since I’m not, I would have to defer to his stats. Look at his rookie stats vs now (Dang it, I can’t post his stats on my work computer). He has improve his overall game. I’m not saying he can dribble like Curly Neil or shoot like Mark Price or rebound like Dennis Rodman but he has improve in all areas of his game. After watching the Pistons game in person, if you refer to Josh as immature then Rasheed must be metally challenge (see, I didn’t use the R-Word). On one play, this guy raise his hand to admit he committed the foul and then chews the ref out for calling the foul on his way to the bench…Go figure
Rod, you know how the blog gets when it comes to Josh. You can not straddle the fence with him. Heck, you better not get caught on the wrong side…lol
TskOoOo
March 9th, 2009
4:37 pm
Actually, I was at the Pistons game, and in the last 2 min., Smoove drove to the basket, missed, there was contact, and he barked at the ref, and if it wasn’t so loud, would’ve gotten a T and lost us the game. On top of that, Smoove just walked by to the defensive end as the Pistons were trying to score (it was a 2 pt game). Smoove can’t pass or rebound consistently. I don’t give a !@#$ what anyone else says–the guy does not know how to dribble or pass a basketball. He doesn’t even try block shots half the time (yes Saturday was a decent game)
Rod from College Park
March 9th, 2009
5:33 pm
TskOoOo,
Marvin has not progressively gotten better based on his stats. His stats are worse this year except for his 3 point percentage.
08-09 Marvin Williams , ATL 59 35.0 14.0 4.7-10.4 .455 .9-2.6 .355 3.6-4.5 .804
07-08 Marvin Williams , ATL 80 34.6 14.8 5.3-11.5 .462 .0-.1 .100 4.2-5.1 .822
Josh’s stats are worse this year, but they have not progressively gotten worse. He improved his stats every year except for this year.
Shout out to the blog police Sautee for this message.
doc
March 9th, 2009
5:41 pm
rod, which side of the fence are you on if you like both marvin and josh? find me a perch somewhere to sit.
heading out to the game folks with my older daughter. should be fun!
Rod from College Park
March 9th, 2009
5:48 pm
Doc,
I don’t like Marvin. I’ll be at the game also. Enjoy.
Big Ray
March 9th, 2009
5:50 pm
Melvin,
I don’t think anybody ever suggested that we could have drafted all three guys together. Nobody’s that silly. But if you’re going to look at it that way, then Chris Paul is the clear choice. Why? Because you get a true leader, a true point guard, and one of the NBA’s top players to boot. If picking Roy, you get a true leader, but not a pg. Of course, having him in the backcourt with an equally ball-savvy guard like JJ means you don’t necessarily need one. That, and Roy allows you to trade Joe for a pg or other piece if necessary. Then there’s Horford. I love the guy. No two ways about it. But that’s the guy we ended up with, largely BECAUSE we failed to pick the other two, and due to a couple of VERY LUCKY bounces of the ping pong ball. Horford is a great guy. But he’s a guy playing out of position on a team that still doesn’t have a real leader and still lacks identity.
None of this is Horford’s fault, and he may emerge as the team’s leader. Lord knows he is doing more leader-like things lately than the guy who is SUPPOSED to be…
Rod,
I think the explanation for both Marvin and Josh’s stats this year is simple: Mike Bibby. Think about it….
Big Ray
March 9th, 2009
5:58 pm
As for breakdown of tonight’s game:
Let Chris Paul get his? Heh. No, there will be no letting. Chris will TAKE his. It’s either that, or you smother his butt into a less than stellar performance. In which case, we all know what JJ’s task is for the evening. And guess what? He’s not fast enough to do it.
Yeah, we could use Law on him for a few minutes. We could use Law EVERY night for a few minutes. Woody doesn’t think so, however, and it’s too late now. Who cares at this point…
David West is the only other serious threat, though Tyson Chandler shouldn’t be ignored. I say that because Paul likes to throw him lobs. We need to cut that nonsense out first thing or Chandler will get an easy double double. Josh and Al are both capable of giving West the fits, but I say put Josh on him. As it is, both guys will have their hands full dealing with West/Chandler on the boards. They will have to take it to them old school style, or we’re going to have trouble winning.
After all, every rebound those clowns get means another chance for CP3 to get the ball in his hands. I don’t have to tell you that means bad news.
The rest of the guys are role players. But they can hurt you (Rasual Butler is a sneaky contributor) if you ignore them. Clamp down really hard on all of these guys, and beat West/Chandler to the boards…and you have a win. Paul will do his thing. The idea is to not let him spread his cheer around.
The Hawks tend to play well against tough teams. Let’s hope tonight is no exception. However, no getting down by double digits early. CP3 and the Hornets are not known for their 4th quarter charity….
Najeh Davenpoop
March 9th, 2009
6:00 pm
“Also, in terms of coachable players, Horford, Marvin Gaye, and Joe have all thrived under Woodson. Smoove and Salim, not so much”
In what way has Marvin “thrived” under Woodson while Josh Smith hasn’t?
It’s Josh’s 4th year and Marvin’s 3rd, and while Josh has gotten significantly better as a post player and passer, Marvin has gotten better at team defense and driving to the basket. Neither one has become as good as they can be, but both are better than they were at the start of their careers. Sure, Josh and Woody haven’t gotten along (then again, I wouldn’t be surprised if other Hawks didn’t like Woody and Josh was just the only one who spoke up about it). But from a player development point of view I don’t see how anyone can objectively say one has thrived while the other hasn’t.
Najeh Davenpoop
March 9th, 2009
6:07 pm
I don’t even think David West and Tyson Chandler are that good. West has skills but isn’t very physically imposing, and Chandler is athletic but has limited skills. I think if Josh and Al are on their games they can handle them. I agree with everyone else that the Hawks should let CP3 get his points while limiting his opportunities to set up other players with easy shots. CP3 is going to get in the lane all he wants, but it’s important that the Hawks don’t double him and leave other players wide open, because he will find them. In particular I think it’s important that players like Rasual Butler and James Posey don’t heat up from the 3 point line. That’s what I think can really kill the Hawks in this game, if CP3 is able to find those players for easy 3’s after getting in the lane.
Rod from College Park
March 9th, 2009
6:14 pm
Najeh,
My only problem with your statement is that both things that you state Marvin has gotten better at were things he was awful at. He was a terrible defender, and now he is ok, and he was terrible at driving to the basket, and now he is ok. When you are on the bottom floor, you can’t go anywhere but up. Josh was never terrible at anything (except shooting 3’s), so it is harder to improve.
James
March 9th, 2009
6:23 pm
Woody cause the Hawks two games with his Bobby Knight style of coaching, comeon man this is the nba, we are talking about grown men man!Maybe when Woody learn to deal with grown men, then maybe he can truly be call a head coach, like how can you take a player out when he’s hot, tell Joe to pass the ball, tell Bibby to stop firing up 3″S when their not one hawk under the board, i mean i can go on and on with out includeing Josh in the conversation on things that need to be adress. I see what you see Josh, bad coaching.
Melvin
March 9th, 2009
8:03 pm
Yes sir. I like the Hawks body language tonite…. Good defense by AC on Paul…
Astro Joe
March 9th, 2009
8:04 pm
Is this mic on? And was that Chris Naismith I saw take a bad shot? No, it couldn’t be… he does NOTHING wromg.
cp
March 9th, 2009
8:10 pm
Great game so far. Good contributions from the bench. Law looked confident out there and was playing some nice d on Paul. Bibby is still struggling with his shot. We have to continue to attack in the second half and hope some of these wide open jumpers we are missing go in.
bigdave
March 9th, 2009
8:10 pm
hawks playing winning basketball right now… good team defense, ball distribution, up tempo and running more often …
thats a winning formula for us…
bigdave
March 9th, 2009
8:11 pm
i like that Acie, Bibby, Joe, Josh, Al unit… love that look..
otrhawksfan
March 9th, 2009
8:17 pm
what did i miss fellas
Sautee
March 9th, 2009
8:19 pm
Rod,
Now who’s being a d#@K?
Nate ArchiBALL
March 9th, 2009
8:25 pm
I can’t believe Acie Law played almost 10 minutes in the first half !!!! Woody must be having a problem with the time change.
Eman
March 9th, 2009
8:32 pm
Looks like Joe is the star tonight while Josh isn’t really having a good game right now
cp
March 9th, 2009
8:33 pm
Josh is killing us with the turnovers and jump shots. Bibby is still cold. Might be the time to put both on the bench.