Anybody out there want to rethink middle schools?

My now 18 year old by the Grace of God was lucky enough to be able to go to Catholic School from 3rd to 8th grade. These schools are K-8 . With only 2-3 classes full of students per grade.

My youngest daughter is unfortunately at what is suppose to be a better Fulton County public Middle School.

Last night on the way to my younger daughter’s 13th birthday celebration dinner. My 18 year old tried to tell her to enjoy these years in school. My 13 year old, said, B, you don’t know how lucky you were that you went to K-8 and never had to go to Middle school. She said that Middle School sucks to her big sister. I said, B, you know all your little sister has been is bullied. It has not been that warm intimate elementary style feeling you had. There are no true friends, no group sleep overs, it is impersonal. She said I am so sorry H. I forgot, I was so lucky, you are right, I never realy went to middle school. Then my 18 year old said what I meant was just don’t grow up to fast.

My Obama Scholar in 5th grade, grades have been all over the place. The difference in the quality of education she is getting is night and day from my older daughter. I feel so sad every day that I don’t have the $8,000 plus to put her in Catholic School. Now her grades have been trashed by the public middle schoool. I am frustrated beyond belief.

We should have K-8. Especially when we have such lack of discipline in the schools. We need to keep the schools local. It need to be our neighborhood schools. We don’t need to accept transfers from across the county at the middle school level. Buy a house in the zoned area of the school you want to live in.

• Link
• Report this comment

If there was grades 1-8 and 9-12, or 1-7 and 8-12, that would mean less principals! When I attended middle school it was on the same campus as the high school and middle school students were not squat and none of them had a head trip about anything, as we were the little potatoes on the campus.

• Link
• Report this comment

So this the middle school, the transition that causes test scores to drop occurs in in 6th grade. The article does not specifically which test scores, but let us assume it is something similar to crct.

Who cares? The “transition” has to occur at some point. And it is based upon a test score written for crct? Or some other equivalent but equally crappy test?

Would it be better to throw 3rd graders in with 7th graders? Or should be throw 6th graders in with HS seniors? Where is the data to support something like that? I doubt it has even been studied.

• Link
• Report this comment

little sixth grade children in our building alongside, sometimes, 15-year-olds

True, that. More like 15 and 3/4 year olds. I practically got put into boiling water for finally asking, “Hey, what is the deal with so many out of age kids in the classroom?” Does not go together, dewey eyed little kids with wolves who look like they should have a driver’s license and full time job.

• Link
• Report this comment

You’re just discovering this?

Revisit the ruminations of “experts” who came up with chronological-age-based classes and schools.

The truth is, smart, hard-working kids warrant accelerated studies. Who decided that algebra was suitable only for 13-14 year olds? My home-schooled kids started elementary algebra at 10-11. When their same-age cohorts were starting it, my kids were graphing quadratic functions, pencil and paper, solving them using completing the squares and the quadratic formula. At age 13, they derived the Law of Cosines, and learned WHY cosine(A+B) = cosAcosB + sinAsinB.

Not that their pre-pull-out-to-homeschool teachers advised us, “Your boys are really good in math.” They didn’t recognize our kids’ talent. They were math dummies. The people who set up the school system were math dummies.

If your 14 year old can’t prove sin2A = 2sinAcosA, you have to figure out whether your child is a math dummy or if he/she is attending a school run by math dummies. For our kids, we determined it was the latter, and our kids, as math-doers, were being abused, mentally.

• Link
• Report this comment

The way they run schools, K-8 would be more like K- age 15. One thing about an out of age kid, a 15 year old in middle school. They’re very uncomfortable and know for a fact that there is no chance of them graduating high school with their age-appropriate peer group.

• Link
• Report this comment

Our kids had contemporary-age friends. But they really enjoyed conversing with 40-50-60-70-year olds. That was one of the best unintended consequences of home education. Who came up with the lunatic notion of age-segregating children? “You’re 9 years old. You need to be enclosed with other 9 year olds for 6 hours/day.”

Most of you are brainwashed, and you don’t even realize it, trying to “work with a system to improve it,” not understanding that the “system” is fundamentally designed to impair children.

• Link
• Report this comment

I think K-8 would be wonderful. I believe that smaller, community schools would be a step in the right direction- BUT, we have spent decades building these very large expensive middle schools built in towns. We are stuck with these buildings for the next 20, 30, or more years. The reason we were able to go to Middle Schools so easily was because we got rid of the Junior High Schools. It wasn’t a building cost change. How can we afford- in these economic times, to expand the elementary schools and what do we do with the large Middle Schools we have now? It is a nice discussion, but it is impractical to even bring up the subject.

• Link
• Report this comment

I’ve been saying this for years. Yes, transitions have to occur, but there needs not be another one. One transition from elementary to high school is enough. The K-7 and 8-12 model I was a part of will also remove the extra “graduation ceremony”, which is ridiculous to have in the first place. We have, for too long, created a false sense of success for our kids by celebrating graduation from Pre-K, K, Elementary, Middle, and even High Schools. At 18, a student has accomplished much, so a huge celebration is unnecessary.

• Link
• Report this comment

The problem is not middle school itself. The biggest issue in middle school is the number of students who are socially promoted in elementary school to “protect” them and many hit the academic wall in grades 6 and 7. Eliminating middle school campuses will not fix this academic deficit on keep it in-house for a few more years.

• Link
• Report this comment

I taught for years in a K-7 school and it was wonderful. The 6th and 7th graders were the leaders for the school. I have NEVER supported middle schools!

• Link
• Report this comment

I taught in K-7 schools, 6-8, 9-12, k-8, and 8-12. I think K-8 and 9-12 worked the best. Middle schools do not work any better that junior high.

• Link
• Report this comment

“There are two kinds of fools one says “This is old and therefore good” and the other says “This is new and therefore better”. (I admit I am the first kind of fool – I am of the “if it aint’ broke, don’t fix it” school).

• Link
• Report this comment

How about a model of k-6, 7-8th, and 9-12 th. this is what we had when I grew up in South Ga. Adolescents need their own little space. Not quite teens but not kids either. I dread putting my soon to be 6 th graders with 8th graders. Big difference.

• Link
• Report this comment

Great points above. Having headed K-12 grade non-public schools for over thirty years, I agree whole-heartily with the sentiment of the comment of 2kidsinschool above, “I dread putting my soon to be 6th graders with 8th graders. Big difference.” From experience I can tell you – physically, socially, and especially emotionally, a greater than majority of kids suffer from being in a middle school environment. Incorporate all the positive aspects of the middle school philosophy – team teaching and the like into a K-8 grade physical set-up and use the older kids as role models for the younger. Even the most mature of 7th and 8th graders prosper in such a set-up. But more important, the greater majority who are less mature benefit even more.

• Link
• Report this comment

Old timer: For several years after opening a middle school they gave the opportunity for our 6-7 graders to go there, not required. It was new! Lots of things the smaller K-7 school did not have! Virtually NONE of the parents took that option. They wanted their kids in the smaller school where, at an important time, they were the leaders and not the babies. They finally closed the 6-7 at our school (it was undermining the “progress”) and it made everyone mad as pitch. And, of course, it was the wrong decision.

When I grew up it was 1-6 in elementary, 7-8 at junior high, and 9-12 at high school. It worked passably well.

• Link
• Report this comment

I find it interesting that many private schools are either k-8 or k-12. The big difference is the small size of the school and the ability of hand picking the students in a private setting. We have huge schools in Fulton County; I don’t think that adding grades to any school will benefit the students.

• Link
• Report this comment

the middle school idea will go down as the second biggest failure in public education in georgia , right behind busing….. kindergarten and pre k should be left to the parents , the school system should not pay for K and pre k , AND go back to k-7 elementary schools and 8-12 high schools and everyone will be better off !!!

• Link
• Report this comment

When I attended school, the 1-7, 8-9, and 10-12 model was used. We had to rotate classes in junior high, and I don’t recall having any trouble keeping up with what came first after weekends or holidays. It seemed to work fine, but I can also see the merits of a k-6, 7-8, and 9-12 model. Either of these models will probably be more useful in the remediation of those students who are falling behind. I suppose the junior high model assigns more student responsibility and more “mature expectations.”

• Link
• Report this comment

I teach middle school and it is very similar to going to war every day. The bad kids reign with classroom disruptions and poor academic skills. Many kids see this as an exit in a few years, so why should they care! We had bells in middle school – no arguing with a bell. Now it is let me wander in when I get through socializing. We were competitive with grades back in the day, not so anymore especially in the urban schools. Students compete but for the most could care less attitude and academic achievements. I am about to retire after teaching 20+ years and school has really changed. Everybody better start learning to speak Chinese, Japanese, and Indian because we’ll be working for them soon.

• Link
• Report this comment

For a model that DOES work, please consider Mt. Laurel, a town in Southern New Jersey with several elementary schools that are K-4. Then they have Hartford, variously described as an “upper elementary” and “lower middle” school where all of the town’s students go for 5th and 6th grades only. After that, they go to Harrington Middle School, which is exclusively 7th and 8th grades. This system works because the 5th and 6th graders are beginning to get hormones and all that comes with that, so it’s not appropriate for them to be with the younger students, though clearly they aren’t ready to be in school with the 7th and 8th graders yet. Check it out–it worked for my family.

• Link
• Report this comment

This makes me really glad we homeschool our kids.

Kids that age should be starting to learn how to behave like adults, but what do we do with them? We immerse them in an environment with hundreds of other clueless kids and just a handful of adults. Then, after school, they hang out with their same-age friends or go to activities with other kids their age. There is little opportunity for them to model their behavior after responsible, caring adults, so they become peer-dependent and make their choices based on the ‘wisdom’ they get from other middle school kids.

• Link
• Report this comment

Maureen: I know that some of your loyal readers are tiring of me saying, “I told you so” once again, but you may recall that I have occasionally harped (not a Big Harp) against the whole middle school concept. Oh, I remember so well when it came down the pike in the mid-1980s. Just another fad that sprang from the thoughts of a college of education professor bent on making tenure by publishing any strained notion that was deemed publishable.

I had taught and coached over 30 years ago at Jonesboro Jr. High School (Grades 7 through 9). Before this, I had taught and coached at Southwest DeKalb High School (Grades 8 through 12) and taught at Greene County High (Grades 9 through 12) and was assistant principal at Washington High School (Grades 10 through 12). After Jonesboro, I had been an administrator at a school that had officially switched to the hallowed “middle school concept” but was still called a “junior high.” I have experienced every conceivable organizational structure for schools. Oh, back to Jonesboro, the school became “Jonesboro Middle School” and even did away with the rough-sounding “Red Devil” mascot and embraced the “Golden Bear,” much to the chagrin of the students. But, “Golden Bears” was much more cuddly-sounding. Heck, I was so politically incorrect (can you believe this?) that I even had the students to begin calling ourselves “the Dirty Devils.” We indeed had the image of the Oakland Raiders. Ha! We would put the “Jone-buh” on you!

But, according to the Quality Basic Education Act (QBE) passed here in Georgia in 1985 (or was that 1986?), all school systems were given huge financial incentives if they adopted the middle school concept. This is the concept wherein the students at this tender, transitional age would be pampered, spoiled, and coddled…for fear that their precious self-esteem might be bruised if the teachers demanding too much of them. Hence, when they arrived at high school, they were irresponsible and no longer had mommie around to ask the teachers for forgive their kiddies for not bringing their books or pencil and paper to class. Yes, it was a sharp line of demarcation when these somewhat spoiled youngsters reach high school.

The middle school kiddies were not held accountable by the same standards that the junior high students were held. Heck, when I graded papers, I had the entire class sometimes gather around my desk to see what others made. We called the grades out loud for all to hear. The students loved it! If a governor or lieutenant or speaker of the house in one of my classes did not make the expected high mark on the test, then a recall petition might be started immediately. Oh, with the middle school concept, I am sure that I would have been fired immediately for “embarrassing” the soft egos at this tender age, but they would have fired me over the protests of students and parents because the students loved this!

Yes, I have said from the beginning that “the middle school concept” (as it was so reverently called) was a crock. A total crock. Just as the entire QBE program was a crock. A waste of millions and millions of tax dollars. I said from the beginning that “QBE” stood for “Quit Being an Educator.” This program too has been slowly dismantled. Darn it – it’s so tough being right on all of this stuff all of the time!

As I quickly Googled my name and “middle school,” I came across the following written nearly three years ago by some anonymous poster. I had never seen it, but this poster said that I should be “required reading.” Ha! I am beginning to feel like Ric Flair or at least Rowdy Roddy Piper! If I could ever get to the point of having the feel of Virgil Runnels who adopted the name Dusty Rhodes, the American Dream, then I will feel like I have arrived at some educational posting nirvana. In DustySpeak, we could hear the people say: “What did John Trotter say? It all come back to John Trotter. He be right all da time. It all come back to John Trotter.”

Here is the previous post on this blog of three years ago upon which I stumbled…

Real culture change needed but not likely
May 19th, 2010
12:10 am

For anybody really committed to real culture change in Georgia schools, the following by Dr John Trotter should be required reading. Until we are ready to look at the issues Dr. Trotter raises, we will continue to do a great disservice to Georgia students, and continue to be one of the laughingstocks of the nation.

Unfortunately Dr. Trotter is probably right in that real culture change will not happen, just like he was right in talking about cheating years before any other educational leader in Georgia, and just like he was right about the corruption in DeKalb County, again years before anyone was willing to talk about it.

What Will The New State Superintendent Do About The “War Zone Schools”?

By Dr. John Trotter

I see that Kathy Cox has stepped down. She’s had enough. I am sure that Kathy is a nice person, but from the beginning she was in way over her head. She won simply because she had an “R” next to her name. The same for Linda Schrenko. Both are pleasant enough to be around but entirely clueless when it comes to improving education in Georgia, particularly in the urban areas like DeKalb, Gwinnett, Cobb, Atlanta, Clayton, Fulton, Muscogee, Richmond, Dougherty, Chatham, Bibb, et al. Some school systems in Georgia are doing just fine, despite the State cutting large sums of monies from the systems. But, where education is failing is largely in the urban school settings…where teaching there can be like teaching in a war zone.

In the “War Zone Schools” (perhaps I can coin this phrase like my “educrat” and “snoopervise” phrases, eh?), there are some salient features which plague them. At MACE, we have been talking about these “plagues” for years, but this is not popular to talk about and borders on being “politically incorrect,” which is something with which we don’t too much concern ourselves. Here are the “Four Horsemen of Failing Urban Schools” (ooh, I like this phrase also; I see that I easily impress myself — ha!): (1) Defiant & Disruptive Students (Thugs); (2) Irate & Irresponsible Parents; (3) Angry & Abusive Administrators; and (4) Systematic & Widespread Cheating. There you have it. These are the crucial issues, and each and every candidate for State Superintendent will blithely ignore all of them and proceed to offer up some pedagogical pabulum and platitudes which, first of all, will be theoretically and practically unsound, and second of all, will not make a scintilla of difference in these “War Zone Schools.”

Why does MACE thrive? Because we tell the truth about these “War Zone Schools,” and we do not candy-coat the problems. We address the problems head-on. This is what GAE and PAGE refuse to do — in fact, CANNOT do because they cater to the whims of administrators who are also their members. No matter who gets elected as State Superintendent of Georgia — John Barge, Roger Hines, Richard Woods, Beth Farokhi Sandra Cannon Scott, Brian Westlake, or Kira Willis — he or she will not do one thing to improve these “War Zone Schools.” Oh, Harris County will be O. K. Fannin County will be O. K. Bremen City will be O. K. But, what about Sylvan Middle School in Atlanta? What about Fain Elementary School in Atlanta? What about Indian Creek Elementary School in DeKalb? What about Tara Elementary School in Clayton? What about Lindley Middle School in Cobb? What about Shiloh Middle School in Gwinnett? What about Columbia Middle School in DeKalb? What about Mays High School (yes, the once storied Mays which is now floundering) in Atlanta? What about Clarkston High School in DeKalb? What about Randolph Elementary School in Fulton? What about these schools? What will the new superintendent do about these schools? Nothing. (c) MACE, April 18, 2010.

• Link
• Report this comment

I think there are a whole host of issues.
1) A lot of new, inexperienced teachers get put in middle schools.
2) 6th graders aren’t ready for the organizational challenges of moving to 6 or 7 classes and getting things out of their locker.
3) The teachers don’t know the students as well since they only see them 1 class a day and have 150 or 200 students.
4) You’ve got children (6th graders) with adolesecents (8th graders) and are trying to treat them the same.

When test scores decline as they do from 5th to 8th grade, you’ve got to figure something is going wrong. But there is very little discussion.

• Link
• Report this comment

Maybe this is one of those decisions arguing in favor of more parental choice, so individual parents can decide what would be a better fit for their children.

Or maybe the status quo warriors will win the day and keep choices (and therefore innovation) at a minimum.

• Link
• Report this comment

I have a copy of the State Education Finance Study Commison’s final recommendations summary. I think this was completed back in the fall. Under Title 20 changes, it recommends removing the middle school program definition, but still funding in QBE by combining programs as previously recommended. I don’t really know what this means, but suppose it could mean that we can start moving away from the middle school model, at least within traditional middle school buildings. If anyone really knows what it means, please explain it.

• Link
• Report this comment

My preference? K through 6 (Elementary), 7 and 8 (Junior High), 9 through 12 (Senior High). For the record, the Goodlad Study which came out of UCLA in the 1980s, a study of the studies, found that there was not a single organizational structure that consistently yielded better academic results than the others.

• Link
• Report this comment

Middle School will always be the most challenging phase of K-12 education. Why? Because this is when kids’ hormones kick in. They go through lots of changes and these biological developments can, in this layperson’s opinion, add more hurdles to the learning challenges at this point in the students’ academic careers.

I realize that this is probably a “real estate” issue, but I have always admired the “one-school” concept that some independent schools embrace, whereby K-5, 6-8 and 9-12 are all in the same general proximity to one another. In addition, I have always felt that certain schools focus much more on “community,” where there is a buddy system in place. Here, the older students are paired up with the younger ones for mentorship. I realize this may not directly affect learning, but I do think that school districts must find ways to bring their schools closer together. Add this to the laundry list of challenges plaguing traditional public education in America. As a child, I remember having a somewhat traumatic transition from 5th to 6th grade. Transitioning into a larger community with different demographics can be quite stressful for children – lets not forget that.

• Link
• Report this comment

The middle school model doesn’t work, but, at least from my experience, neither does the (public) K-8 model. Think about it, K-8 equals at minimum 5 years at school with 13 or 14 year olds–at maximum, with 16 year olds! What ever happened to K-3, 4-6, 7-9, then 10-12? I know of some private schools that, while truly K-12, actually serve their students in this way.

• Link
• Report this comment

I think you’re going to hit a major logistical snag with pulling 9th away from 10-12 because of the way credits are currently earned in HS. Through 8th, you either pass a whole grade or you don’t. Starting with 9th, it’s individual courses. This might be solvable with online stuff, but I’m not sure that’s gonna be the healthiest fix either.

• Link
• Report this comment

“Anybody out there want to rethink middle schools?”–Maureen

Finally, some common sense comes from Maureen’s blog. Thank You!

• Link
• Report this comment

Again, we are arguing about things that have very little impact on student achievement. Do these school models address Discipline? Do they address attendance? Do they address social promotion? Figure those out first before you go tweaking a system to get a certain objective.

• Link
• Report this comment

Agree with those who note that transitions are difficult and no more should occur than necessary. In City Schools of Decatur, not only is there a middle school transition, but there’s also a transition to the 4/5 “Academy”. (What makes an “academy” vs. a school like all the other CSD schools is not clear!) The worst of it is that the 4/5 started out as an elementary school, supposedly with lots of opportunity for students from the different feeder K-3 elementaries to intermingle and for teachers to co-teach, but now it has morphed into a crowded pseudo-middle school.

Rising sixth graders are still in the latency period; many are only 11 years old. The girls aren’t boy crazy yet and the boys can barely tie their shoes. Throwing them in with a lot of preteens and teens is not developmentally appropriate.

I prefer a K-6 Elementary, 7/8 Junior High School, 9-12 High School model. It’s the best fit develomentally if one looks at the developmental pediatric literature vs. the educational jargon.

• Link
• Report this comment

Maureen, Is it possible that there is a cabal of administrators, like Anonymous, who can’t deal with my arguments but want to use your blog to try to trash MACE and me? Ha! Just kidding. Off to another picket! Wow! Life is fun!

• Link
• Report this comment

I am also a Dekalb native and did not attend a middle school.
What a cost-saving measure to eliminate Middle Schools!
Eliminate all those Principals and close some schools.
You could also set up an alternative school for the kids that are held back. There would be an empty building for those that need the extra instruction. It would also eliminate the older (out of place) kids in a place where they could get individual instruction.

• Link
• Report this comment

Wholeheartedly agree that the middle-school concept is a failure and it’s where public education falls apart. I just had this conversation with my brother & sister-in-law since my son is about to graduate HS and we forked over private school tuition for all but 2 years of his education. My advice: put your kid in public school as long as you can. Elementary is typically fine; you’ll find teachers who teach because they love kids and can form bonds with them and typically even relationships with the parents (it’s a lot easier to have 1 teacher to go to when you have an issue with your child but when there are 6-7 teachers; they’re just labeled as a “problem child” and not one teacher will really take the time to help the child because they’re too busy dealing with 120-150 other kids during the day). But be prepared when they get to middle school to pay tuition if it doesn’t work. Some kids are fine in public schools; MANY are not. Many are lost in the shuffle and while they may survive, few thrive and few actually make significant strides in education. What are the countries who lead the work in education doing? Are middle schools unique to America?

• Link
• Report this comment

What are the countries who lead the *world* in education doing?

• Link
• Report this comment

Criticism of the middle school concept has been around for quite awhile. Change is slow to come, though. Time Magazine did a lengthy article on problems with the Middle School Concept eight years ago and profiled several major school systems who were dropping the concept. It is useful to read the article “Is Middle School Bad for Kids?” http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1088694-1,00.html

• Link
• Report this comment

I am wondering if middle schools were designed because neither the elementary schools nor the high schools could handle that age. My older daughter went to one, and was bullied, the administration handled it exactly the way they should not have, and as a result, she started not liking school until college. We put our younger one into a private K-6 grade school, with 7-8 as middle school, then onto high school. It seemed to work out much better. Obviously I’m only comparing a sample size of 2, and it’s apples to oranges. But we liked the K-6 experience far better. Then only 7-8th are in the middle school pressure cooker (not so much academics as social, we think).

• Link
• Report this comment

K-7 (split the building so K and 7 have no reason to be in the hallways together), 8-9, then 10-12. Some of our lunch discussion has been how we need to have a grade 8.5 for those who need extra help getting to 9th grade course work without being socially promoted. The 8-9 school would allow that to happen, along with being sure the learning environment is more in tune with that at the future receiving high school.

Also, a separate K-12 school should be in place so students who fall more than 1 year behind acadmeically may go to get caught up and/or finish out the school experience. This would NOT be a school for discipline issues, but rather students who truly struggle and need more one-on-one attention to learn the material.

• Link
• Report this comment

Back in my day, grammar school was grades 1-7 and high school was grades 8-12. We seem to have survived.

• Link
• Report this comment

@Maureen

Dr. John Trotter offends readers not because of the excessive length of some posts—but rather because he so often uses them as vehicles to shill for his tiny, third-rate group MACE.

• Link
• Report this comment

I’ve thought there was something wrong with middle school, or junior high, ever since I went thru it about 35 years ago. I went to a K-6 elementary school, which was wonderful — great teachers, great friends, very nurturing, excellent. Then I went to a 7-8 junior, which approx. 5 elementary schools fed into — it was a nightmare, scary, crowded, lots of fights, you hardly got to know any of your teachers, and I, like I suspect many of my classmates, withdrew. Then I went to a 9-12 high school and it was better, but it wasn’t until about 11th grade that I really came out of the shell and trauma of junior high.

I think K-8 would be great. The studies say K-8 would work better educationally and developmentally. It would be a continuation of the positive K-5 or K-6 experinec that most experience. I wouldn’t be that worried about 14 year old 8th graders and kindergarteners on the same campus — I think it would actually help make the hormone driven 7th and 8th graders more mellow, and better behaved. I have an 8th grader now, and watching her and her friends, they’re fine/great around little kids — it’s being in a large bunches of only 6th to 8th graders together that brings out the problems, the insecurities, and the acting out.

But unfortunately, as a poster above pointed out, we’ve invested so much in middle school or junior high school buildings all across the country, that there is little likelihood, especially in these economic times of tighter public budgets, that we would spend again to convert all of our school buildings back to K-8 facilities. And it would take major spending to do that — you couldn’t just use current K-5’s as K-8’s. It would require major capital expenditure, so much so that it is probably pretty unrealistic on a widespread scale in the near future.

Going back to K-6, and 7-8 (and 9-12), or even K-5, 6 academy, 7-8, and 9-12, would not be the best, but would probably be better than 6-8 middle schools, and would be more financially do-able.

• Link
• Report this comment

I was in the Dekalb model in the 70s as well with k-7 and 8-12. It worked fine, but we were in our own hall in 8th grade at the high schools.

• Link
• Report this comment

@Bhorsoft, you are absolutely right, a good education is possible regardless of the “system”. However, you have to want it to get it.

Those of you complaining about Dr. Trotter need to leave him alone. He has the right to speak just as the rest of us do. If he gets to be too long-winded or self-aggrandizing, just skip his posts. That’s what I do, and I never feel like I’ve missed much.

• Link
• Report this comment

Why not charge Dr. Trotter for advertising space like you normally do with AJC advertisers?

• Link
• Report this comment

Talk about transitions… I actually went to THREE different middle schools in different states and my brother attended three different high schools. We didn’t have the social/transitional issues the majority of people are harping about on this blog. IMHO, I think the schools back then were allowed to discipline and I know (yes, know) that the kids were better prepared. This is not a slight against teachers, but rather it is my critique on the dumbed-down curriculum and all the fancy edufads that have gotten in the way of real learning.

I know I’m in the minority here, but I don’t think the MS model is a failure. I think the failure is due to our need to coddle everyone and socially promote unprepared students. Mastery is no longer the ideal; instead, edu-businesses are pushing equal outcomes. What garbage!

Many of you think the middle school should be done away with. What would you replace it with and at what cost? Let’s look at some other costly coddling going on. My county has a couple elementary schools split into the K-2 and 3-5 model. Sounds good… until you realize there are now TWO principals, TWO assistant principals, and TWO assistant administrators (whatever THAT is) in the same building. That’s a lot of cheese not being spent in the classroom. At least the Seattle split-ES model moves the K-2 to a different school and keeps the admin costs the same. Then, my county also keeps building 9th grade academies. You now have more facility, infrastructure, and utility cost to separate one grade level. Is it worth it? I don’t think so. What about the advanced student? What do they do when they can’t take a 10th or 11th grade class?

On a personal level, I can not wait for my 5th grader to move to the middle school. She is ready to make the transition and is actually excited to leave the ES. And before anyone gives me grief about hormones and nastiness, let me tell you the mean girls start early in elementary school. She’s already experienced it and has come through fine. Additionally, our middle school does a wonderful job of maintaining grade-based “pods,” so she will only interface with 7th and 8th graders on the bus.

Just my two cents, but I believe we should spend less time worrying about redesigning education and spend more time and money actually educating.

• Link
• Report this comment

I went to school at a K-5, then went to middle school for 6-8, then high school for 9-12.

Burn middle school to the ground. No one wants to be there. It’s a misery for everyone involved. I am for anything that involves getting rid of it. Getting rid of an extra layer of administration and the extra buses etc. needed for the schools is a bonus.

• Link
• Report this comment

What about the format that my daughters school uses?

Primary School: PK-3
Lower School: 4-6
Middle School: 7-8
Upper School: 9-12

How does that do over all/ Obviously it works in her school, but a private school has different factors. How would it work in a public school? I went to so many different schools growing up thta I actually kid of experience three models. I was in a K-8 school until I moved and was in a middle schpool for 8th grade, (just ignored the 5th and 6th graderds lol). Then I moved again and was in a Jr. High for 9th grade (7-9). After that I was in high school. Since I experienced all three models but none of them in the “traditional’ manner I cant’ really give a good viewpoint.

• Link
• Report this comment

@middle school parent. just make sure in High School your child takes all Honors classes. Then try AP world Geography that is an Easy A. But with the AP classes you must sit and do flash cards with your child to study almost nightly. Don’t allow them to put your child in the on level classes even if they got bad grades in middle school. If they were an OBama scholar in Elementary school they got above 90% on the IOWA tests so they have the IQ tests. If they are in at least the Honor classes then they are out from under the rif raft. The bullies the 80 IQ Students. Make sure they maintain above an 3.0 GPA on the Hope eligible course (Raw Score) for Freshman and Sophmore years).

Then have them enroll in dual enrollment or Accell, Move on when ready. Start college and go to Ga. Permeter or one of the other colleges. You have to pay about $200-300 in books. They can still partcipate in high school sports and clubs, but they are away from from the hell hole of Georgia Public secondary high school. Plus their credits count for High School and College. It is not an if they score a 4 or 5 on an AP exam. Most colleges only take 2-3 college AP classes, and they are hard. IB is ridiculous, not at all relateable to College. I went to top Universities. I graduated 5th in my calss out side of this state in College. My oldest will end up with 15 credits from Georgia Perimeter that count as her electives and towards graduation. So she easily be able to graduate from college in 3.5 years. She has been accepted at 3 colleges already. When her Cheerleading coach pointed out that she was her only cheerleader accepted at Univ. of Florida, my daughter go many angry glares. Including from the girls who were in the IB progam. My Daughter’s ACT score went up dramatically taking just a 1/2 semester of college level classes.

The key on you middle schooler she must take Honors level courses Freshman year. Don’t let the stupid Administrators put her/him in on level. Tell them to take a leap. After all they can’t even speak or write correct English. See the letter on Spending posted on Dekalb School Watch yesterday. The English was awful.

• Link
• Report this comment

My mom was a high school teacher in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and she thought the middle school idea to be the worst! I mean, can you put together a more disturbed/disturbing group than 6-8th students? Whatever was that all about?

• Link
• Report this comment

…….and back in the day WE KNEW HOW TO BEHAVE OURSELVES BECAUSE IF WE DIDN’T, MAMA WOULD BUST OUR A&%!! The kids today have ZERO discipline! And I blame that on our lovely governemnt sticking its nose in the private business of the American family! So, I don’t think it has anything to do with being a “middle school” or a “junior high” school – it’s whether or not the PARENTS take an active role in making sure their kids are doing what they are supposed to be doing and not causing problems for everyone else! I do work in the school system and I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I have heard a kid tell a school administrator to “call my mama! Have HER come up here!” And the parents act worse than the kids! Remember the days when the School Principal had control of the students? Those days are LONG GONE!!

• Link
• Report this comment

Growing up in a small town in south Georgia in the 70s and 80s it was:

Primary School – 1-3
Elementary School – 4-6
Junior High (Middle, as you all call it) – 7-8
High 9-12

I always thought that made sense because you have smaller groups of kids (at least until high school) who are developmentally closer to their peers. Junior High (Middle School) was kind of the “in-between” from being in a one-teacher, one-class situation to having multiple teachers in multiple buildings.

• Link
• Report this comment

To ChristyS above – but even though you say you don’t think the MS structure is a failure, you go on to say “….. I think the failure is due to our need to coddle everyone and socially promote unprepared students. Mastery is no longer the ideal; instead, edu-businesses are pushing equal outcomes. What garbage!” That is the MS philosophy. Don’t bruise the self-image. This is a sensitive age. Down-play or even eliminate competition. And equal outcomes w/o commensurate effort are just some of the more visible characteristics.

• Link
• Report this comment

Here is the worst part of middle school one of the three kids that has been bullying my daughter and at least 10 others to the point that they did not want to go on the Chorus trip to New Orleans for this week. She has been reported numerous times for bullying. Over 3 times by me alone, which means she should have been removed from the school. The kicker is she is still being allowed to go on the Chorus trip to New Orleans. I questioned the Principal last week, why this girl the bully was being allowed to go on this field trip. All I received was, thanks for your e-mail. Then my bet is this kid is probably going on Scholarship.

I want to scream, that their is no punishment for Bullies. They are allowed to go on an out of town field trip. Ten plus other kids are afraid to go on the trip because of the bully. Then I don’t get to meet with the Area Supt. Cox until the 20th after the big field trip to discuss my concerns about the on going bulling. I sent Avossa letters the first weeks of January.

I thought that kids who were discipline issues weren’t allowed to go on field trips. What are they afraid of Mama is going to sit on their face. She is a rude butt too, that comes in at the last minute of concerts too and try to steal seats in front of people who have been sitting in the seats for over an hour. People who have actually volunteered at school.

• Link
• Report this comment

You people complaining back and forth need to dig deeper. Are you really suggesting that the age grouping is the real reason for problems in middle school? Please.

Every great system must be built from the inside-out, not outside-in. Looking at middle school as just a 6-8 pit of doom doesn’t assess, address, or make any sense of the problems within. Define the problems found in middle school then address them.

Trotter’s long post has a lot of merit. I can tell you that the difference between a 7th grader and a 9th grader is similar to the difference between a 6th grader and an 8th grader. A lot of transition mentally, emotionally, and physically starts around 6th grade and doesn’t end until AFTER 12th grade. Most people seem to think that 9-12 belong together so the real debate is what to do about 6th, 7th, and 8th grades.

So what problems face each of these grades individually? How many problems are the same across grades? How many are different? Can these problems not be addressed within the current middle school grouping by changing the way middle schools are operated? Why do we need to build new schools to support more groupings of grades when we could just correct the way we handle students today? No matter what physical building you place different grades in, schooling still has to occur.

I have a son in middle school right now and all I can tell you is that kids are not treated with the respect they are due because most are “off the chain” compared to kids when I was that age. Things that would have gotten us suspended hardly garner anything worse than detention today. We as a society have different expectations today. We allow our children to get away with so much bad behavior because they are “just kids” and need emotional uplifting.

Forget that. When I was in junior high (7-9) we got in trouble for showing disrespect from Day 1 in 7th grade. We actually feared notifications going home to our parents because we would actually get in real trouble at home for misbehaving at school. Parents allow today’s youth to behave so disrespectfully in general that we passively (and sometimes aggressively) make excuses for bad behavior and disruption. That’s your problem with middle schools.

If you want someone to act responsibly then give them responsibility. Sure, they may fail but they’ll learn to do better. By allowing kids to get away with bad behavior we are taking away their opportunity to be responsible for themselves. The worse part is that administrators and teachers are just as guilty as parents. When any misbehavior occurs they love to punish an entire group of students regardless of their individual role in whatever happened in order to not have to deal with the root of the problem. That is taking the peer accountability model to the extreme. You see, bad kids already know they are going to get in trouble so do you think they care if their victims or innocent bystanders get in trouble too? Teachers don’t want to deal with most problems because they usually don’t get administrative support in seeing it through to some corrective action. This often leads to the other extreme that some problems are not dealt with at all in hopes that it’ll just go away. Shame on the administrators for supporting inflated passing statistics rather than supporting respect and achievement in the classroom.

Bottom line, problems have causes and adults choosing to avoid real resolutions is why the middle school model is broken.

• Link
• Report this comment

I favor a 7-8-9 junior high. No teams.

• Link
• Report this comment

Another “benefit” of K-8 schools is that it provides parents one fewer option to bail on the local school. Right now, most parents leave the local public school after elementary grades or after middle school grades. If you reduce the number of opportunities to leave the system, fewer parents will actually leave. We have changed school districts after every level, elementary, middle, and now high school as we shop for the best educational ENVIRONMENT for our children. Note, I emphasized looking for the best environment because, let’s face reality, Georgia is 48th in education for a reason. Being the best school in a state ranked 48th is like being the at the top of the bottom tier, you are still a part of the bottom tier. Please, no rants about how XYZ school in Blah, Blah, Blah county is better. The state is 48th in academic performance = they all fall below expectations in one form or another.

• Link
• Report this comment

Dr. Trotter I don’t think people care if you make comments they are amusing. It is the fact that you are using this an other blogs to advertise your for profit union MACE. We all have to pay our bills but you advertising for free is getting old. Can’t you afford billboards anymore?

• Link
• Report this comment

I went to a school in New Orleans that started in K – 8th grade. To me that is much better than Middle School. It never made sense to me. Schools in Georgia need to go back to that and cut out ‘middle’ school altogether.

• Link
• Report this comment

I went to school here in Georgia and at the time the system was K-6, Middle 7-9, then High school was 10-12. My son is now an 8th grader. I can’t help but notice the difference between the 6th and 7th graders. Looking back it just seems that keeping 7, 8, 9 together for middle school seemed better for both the 6th and 9th graders that are now in middle and high school. My Mom also taught high school back then and she is still shocked over having the 9th graders going to high school. I guess it is also what we get used to, but it just seems as if the wrong ages are being lumped together now.

• Link
• Report this comment

@ sad APS dad: You are right that going K-8 would mean one less transition that encourages some families to bail on their local public schools, and thereby weaken the sense of community. Watching friends and families bail on the local public schools and go private has been demoralizing for our 8th grader (and for her parents). Where I grew up (far from here) pretty much EVERYONE went to public school, K-12 (I knew maybe 2-3 kids who went to Catholic school), and the consequence was a strong sense of community where you knew the same kids, families, and everyone in your neighborhood, all the way through growing up. It’s not the same in Atlanta where so many people do their own thing when it comes to school. The result is weaker neighborhoods, weaker communities.

• Link
• Report this comment

There are two wonderful organizations which try to represent all people involved in public education…bus drivers, janitors, teachers, principals, and superintendents. They are the Georgia Association of Educators and the Professional Association of Georgia Educators. Their website addresses are the following, respectively…

http://www.gae2.org

http://www.pageinc.org

There you are, folks. I am showing people how to get to GAE’s and PAGE’s websites.

The MACE website is the following…

http://www.theteachersadvocate.com

We love comparisons.

• Link
• Report this comment

Angela, you and your teaching comrades who have convinced yourselves that you are only in the profession to teach the subject are sad, sad excuses for “teachers.” If you know that your charges need more from you than 100 divided by 2 = 50 and you withhold caring, affection, and respect because your “contract” doesn’t obligate you to provide warmth and decency to your students, then you and your fellow travelers are sad, sad excuses for human beings.

• Link
• Report this comment

@jh312
Home tutoring parent is a fake.

There are several home school curriculum fairs each year. Check out the home school websites for Georgia to get info on time and dates. Just google home school curriculum and you will be overwhelmed with sites to visit. There are many sites with curriculum reviews. You can always use Khan Academy, just like they do in public school. Plus, it’s FREE. Many of the non-Christian home schoolers are “unschoolers”. Use google to find their groups. Home school is the opposite of government school: YOU DECIDE what is best for your child. YOU have to do the digging. For most, it is well worth the effort.
http://www.ghea.org

• Link
• Report this comment

@John Galt,

Thank you for your thoughts. However, I am sure that you are one with so many opinions and have yet to come and volunteer your services. I invite you to come to my classroom and read, tutor, mentor, etc. If you are willing to put your body where your mouth and finger tips are I will arrange through Maureen to give you the information. Hugs!!!!!!!!!!!!!

• Link
• Report this comment

A lack of supervision in the community leads to a rejection of supervision in our middle schools.

• Link
• Report this comment