Should constitution be amended to allow Dunwoody, Brookhaven, Sandy Springs to create own school districts?
Could we someday have the city of Dunwoody or city of Brookhaven school district? Or city schools of Sandy Springs or Milton?
A resolution in the House would allow voters to decide whether to undo the constitutional prohibition on creating any new school districts in Georgia. .
House Resolution 486 adds this qualifier to the state constitution:
No independent school system shall hereafter be established; provided, however, that any municipality created on or after January 1, 2005, and any municipality which is contiguous to a municipality created on or after January 1, 2005, irrespective of whether such municipalities may be in different counties, may establish individually or collectively by local law an independent school system.
The resolution proposes that this question be put before voters:
Shall the Constitution of Georgia be amended so as to authorize any municipality created on or after January 1, 2005, and any municipality which is contiguous to a municipality created on or after January 1, 2005, irrespective of whether such municipalities may be in different counties, to establish individually or collectively by local law an independent school system
I am unsure why 2005 is the starting point, although it does enable both Sandy Springs and Milton to create school districts as they formed after January of 2005.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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129 comments Add your comment
Georgia
February 26th, 2013
4:41 pm
YES!! We don’t want those wonderful school districts to catch the Dekalb Disease of stupidity and arrogance. Set them free.
DunMoody
February 26th, 2013
4:43 pm
Yes. Though it would be better if the legislature unencumbered the state constitution from policy – the amendment banning new school systems is really not a constitution-worthy issue. But that’s what we’re stuck with and that’s what Tom Taylor has to navigate to get the local control we need.
living in an outdated ed system
February 26th, 2013
5:04 pm
@Maureen, you’ve been busy today. Six posts!
Maureen Downey
February 26th, 2013
5:07 pm
@living, A lot happening around DeKalb. That will likely be the case until the courts decide one way or the other on the board removals. The Superior Court hearing is Thursday and the federal court hearing is Friday. AJC is checking on whether the Thursday hearing is still on. Some question on that one.
Maureen
Mom of 3
February 26th, 2013
5:07 pm
Yes. To me this is simple. We live in the United States that was founded on freedom. If a group of people want to be “free” to start their own city or school district, why in the world should they not be allowed to? Think back to the Boston Tea Party. England did not want to lose their tax money in that situation either. I may be looking at this too simply- but I do not understand why anyone would fight it. (except from the tax angle) And DunMoody has a good point- I wonder if the City of Dunwoody sued, would the Ga. amendment stand up as being constitutional. (in a federal court) The logic behind it doesn’t stand up when you are looking a county like Dekalb.
skipper
February 26th, 2013
5:14 pm
How could anyone not see that what is going on is not working! Of course they should be able to have their own district. The present cluster is an insult to intelligence.
Chamblee Dad
February 26th, 2013
5:20 pm
So you have a fleet of boats, built by the same navy. For years a strong navy, recognized by many. But bad leadership, mismanagement, corruption & neglect they fall into severe disrepair, some worse than others. Yours is doing pretty good, could do better. But instead of trying to rebuild the whole fleet – yes I know it’s frustating beyond belief, but the lowly sailors joined the same navy your sailors did, even if their captains & admirals are mostly no good. But instead of trying help the whole navy, you pull away from the dock, pull up the ladders & wave good-bye, as the other sailors are bailing water as best they can, even if their captains are nowhere to be found. Or maybe playing cards on shore. Anchors away!
Father of 5
February 26th, 2013
5:21 pm
Add City of Lakeside to the list. If the board remains so arrogant and the county continues to prove its incompetence, . . .
concernedmom30329
February 26th, 2013
5:26 pm
Chamblee dad
I admire your optimism, but as someone who has been trying to right this ship for 15 years, I have to tell you that it is impossible to believe that it will be much better. And frankly, many of your neighbors would like to control their schools as well. (Look at the percentage of private school folks in Chamblee and Brookhaven.)
Add to the mess that is DeKalb, the fact that nationally the best school systems are those that are smaller. Yes, the sometimes have higher taxes but there is a value there.
Mom of 3
February 26th, 2013
5:50 pm
Chamblee Dad- This is America, the lowly sailors can move to another fleet whenever they feel like it. Or if they are so inclined can try to improve their fleet. Since it will be smaller- that should be a more manageable task. Or do it your way- and everyone drowns.
English Teacher
February 26th, 2013
5:58 pm
I have to say – yes. Thank goodness I don’t teach or live in DeKalb, but if I did, my child would not go to school in this district. If I were a taxpayer, you better believe I’d want a better system.
Diane
February 26th, 2013
6:16 pm
To Chamblee Dad,
I find your analogy naive, not optimistic. You are also delusional. This has been decades in the making and it is going to take more than that to fix it, if it ever can be fixed.
Concernedmom30329: I believe you have a very good point. I grew up in Atlanta and am back in Atlanta, but lived in Abington PA, township outside of Philadelphia. Abington has its own schools, property taxes are higher, but the schools were good. The only private schools are parochial; religious affiliations are the only reason one would want their children to go to a private school. That is not the case here in Atlanta. We need a choice other than Dekalb County or private schools. I am sick and tired of my tax dollars going into this black hole of corruption.
Why 2005?
February 26th, 2013
6:18 pm
Until the 2005 limitation is removed, I say “no”. Why shouldn’t a city like Avondale be excluded from establishing a school system?
bu2
February 26th, 2013
6:31 pm
I dislike this bill for 2 reasons. The biggest is that it allows cities to group together. This is a totally new way of setting up districts and it is simply allowing groups who disagree to pull out. The second is the sinking ship analogy. The state of Texas has had major problems with inequality in funding because they don’t use a county based system. Allowing areas with big tax bases to pull out severely hurts the rest.
Unless we are going to full state funding or a statewide property tax, this creates more problems than it solves. Imagine North, Central and Eastern Dekalb pulling out and leaving a district with McNair, Towers and Columbia HS (basically unicorporated Dekalb south of Memorial inside 285). It simply wouldn’t be viable financially.
I think the cities formed after 2005 rule is so that it only applies to metro Atlanta so they don’t get opposition from the rest of the state.
Bernie
February 26th, 2013
6:35 pm
Why not just make SEGREGATION the Law of the Land again? or Why not all of the residents of Dunwoody, Sandy Springs, and Brookhaven move to Cobb County, where they all will certainly be much happier and content with the School System, Shopping Centers, Grocery Stores, Communities & Neighborhoods. It all has been done before…most recently in the late 1970’s.
Mom of 3
February 26th, 2013
6:41 pm
The sky is not falling. bu2 and Chamblee Dad- why are you so afraid of change? Change is good. The system is not working now. If I lived in South Dekalb I would be insulted by your complete lack of faith in that community. There are smart people who live there and are willing to work for their children’s educations. If they were in a smaller district it would help them also. They too could focus on the specific needs of their students. And FYI- there are black people in Dunwoody. There are no barriers. If you actually went to the schools you would see that. They are welcome here. Housing costs vary through out the city. Not everyone drives a fancy car. Talk about stereotyping…
The Momster
February 26th, 2013
6:46 pm
I’m a parent of 3 Dunwoody HS graduates. Never thought I’d see the day when my property values decline because of the stupidity of the Dekalb School Board. So….YES. I didn’t vote for the City of Dunwoody, but I’m a fan now. We have sidewalks, newly paved roads, a plan to upgrade all of our parks, and more. And Bernie, have you looked at the census data lately?? Dunwoody is most definitely not the mono-culture that you are implying. White persons are currently 70% of the population, which means 30% are minorities. 48% of the housing is in multi-unit structures, meaning we’ve got lots of “apartment kids”. They deserve the same first-rate education as the children in owned homes. We’ve got involved parents across the board….let us manage our own schools. Dekalb has shown that it is incapable of doing that for us.
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
6:46 pm
And a few more, too! Yes, DeKalb school system is too big and the area would benefit from the diversity of smaller systems.
DunMoody
February 26th, 2013
6:50 pm
Bernie, Dunwoody (and other cities) are far more diverse than the rest of DeKalb. That argument is a kneejerk reaction, not reality. Segregation is repugnant. So is treating children differently because of where they live, how much their parents are involved, and socioeconomic issues out of their control. A strong, locally controlled, school system provides QUALITY education to each and every child. Period.
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
6:55 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb2zIR2rvRQ#t=0m21s
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
6:58 pm
Make smaller systems. Equalise funding. Play fair. Allow for downsizing and diversity of management.
bu2
February 26th, 2013
7:06 pm
@Mom of 3
Dunwoody with Perimter Mall and the surrounding business district has a disproportionate share of the property wealth of Dekalb County.
South Dekalb with little business and very low home values has very little tax base.
DunMoody
February 26th, 2013
7:14 pm
bu2 … you’re assuming Dunwoody wouldn’t “share” the property wealth. Why do you assume a new school system wouldn’t have a heart?
mountain man
February 26th, 2013
7:14 pm
“Should constitution be amended to allow Dunwoody, Brookhaven, Sandy Springs to create own school districts?”
DANG RIGHT! This would give parents more options for getting their children out of failing systems. I don’t think they should have the 2005 limit in there, though, I think ANY city that wants to create a school system should be able to.
BTW, I graduated from a GREAT city school system.
mountain man
February 26th, 2013
7:16 pm
“South Dekalb with little business and very low home values has very little tax base”
And why does South Dekalb have very low home values? Bad school system and bad neighborhoods?
bu2
February 26th, 2013
7:18 pm
Dunwoody has approximately 15% of the school district’s tax basis ($2.546 billion in Dunwoody) with only about 7% of the total population.
Another comment
February 26th, 2013
7:23 pm
It should be simplified to just take out the limit on 180 School Districts, it is arbitrary and coptitious. It makes no sense that a state that has grown to be the 9th most populous state in just the last 30 years should be limited by wording that was inserted in the 1950’s. Any School District over $8-10,000 students is just too large to manage.
Look at the facts, the best school districts in the consistantly best performing States. The top 10 states are largely made up of Districts that are no larger than 1-2 high school large districts with their feeder schools. These States were set up based on local control, not County control. Why on earth do we have county control in counties that have 750,000 to 1,000,000 in population. This is crazy. These other States were set up on local control, villages, inside towns, or township, then larger towns were cities. Within Villages you would find elemenary schools that were neighborhood schools, that would be walk able and part of the towns unified town school district. Children from the villages that make up towns would go to the Unified Town School districts. Elementary Schools would be loctated in the smaller villages so they are neighborhood. Then the middle and High school are located on one campus to cut down on bussing and sports fields. These schools, have volunteer elected boards of local Professionals, all BS and above. They receive a stipend per meeting. They have long term Superintend, who receive salary’s of about $150K in upstate NY as of 2 years ago. They stay in place 10, 15, 20 years until retirement. They are the direct supervisor of the Principals. Their are no huge Palaces.
These districts work. I was blessed to graduate from one 35 years ago. My nieces and nephews have been graduating from two of them, over the past 10 years. One has graduated as the Valdictorian, and received an Ivy League full Scholarship. My niece graduated 3rd in her class, she grew up living in a Mobile home, yet she was on par with her cousin the doctors son. No one sends their kids to Private school, because the schools are so good.
mountain man
February 26th, 2013
7:23 pm
“South Dekalb with little business and very low home values has very little tax base. ”
And why don’t businesses go to South Dekalb? There must be SOME reason?
NW GA Math/Science Teacher
February 26th, 2013
7:42 pm
Try to remember those of us out here in the nether-regions as well. Someone commented that the 2005 was probably there to get it passed – probably true. Wish it were otherwise. Certainly the best school systems in the NW part of the state are city school systems (Calhoun, Trion, Chickamauga, maybe Dalton) that were grandfathered into this constitution. Wish we could create more of those here too…
Attentive Parent/Invisible Serfs Collar
February 26th, 2013
7:48 pm
It would be nice but unfortunately the federal Equity & Excellence Commission report ” For Each and Every Child” that I wrote about and linked to here http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/will-your-schools-be-used-as-an-information-age-experiment-for-economic-democracy/ is looking to consolidate school districts. In fact it sees diversity as important to equal opportunity and wants something comparable to metrowide districts and no more small districts. One per rural county.
I suspect when the Sandy Springs and Johns Creek residents finally get around to reading Fulton’s charter and understand they have agreed to make school largely non-academic, about using computers and doing projects, social and emotional learning under the euphemism “soft skills,” and those Life Skills of Psychosocial Competence I have already described they will be running to the legislator to complain how such language could have gotten by so many people. Everyone seems ti have just assumed it could not happen to nice kids and nice families in nice neighborhoods. When targeting suburbia was always why Dekalb and APS have been kept so weak.
bu2
February 26th, 2013
7:51 pm
@Another comment
But who are considered the best school districts in Georgia? Probably some of the largest-Gwinnett, Cobb, Forsyth. Its not Pelham.
People on here claim Dekalb was the best school district in the state in the 80s and there may have been more students then. I know there were more students in the north and inside 285 than there are now. South of Memorial there are about 50% of the number of students they used to have. Druid Hills HS has students that would have attended 3 closed high schools in addition to its original zone.
living in an outdated ed system
February 26th, 2013
7:59 pm
@Maureen, I would hope that the support of Leader Abrams showing bi-partisanship should put sufficient pressure on the board to stand down. I think we would all agree we need to resolve this quickly and ensure accreditation is preserved.
bootney farnsworth
February 26th, 2013
9:06 pm
yup.
especially in light of DeKalb’s implosion
KIM
February 26th, 2013
9:20 pm
Why not? All the critics of our school systems will then see how good they have had it. Gwinnett is criticized by a pot full of naysayers continuously in the Gwinnett Daily Post (and I do mean a pot full–it;s the largest district in state with 160,000+ students and a low, low number of loud mouths, thank the good Lord). Let’s see how everyone likes the enormous growth of administrative costs, thus diverting money from the % of state/local dollars spent on direct instruction. Up north they have always had school districts the size of our school clusters. Brookhaven, Sandy Springs, etc. will be about the size of those northern districts. Go for it.
oscar
February 26th, 2013
9:27 pm
So from the comments I’m assuming that it’s really not about ALL of the children. Just the white ones in North Dekalb with a few passable Hispanics thrown in.
mountain man
February 26th, 2013
9:31 pm
“So from the comments I’m assuming that it’s really not about ALL of the children. ”
We have been TRYING to help ALL the children by getting rid of the BOE, but everyone insists on fighting that. So lets break up the county, Dunwoody can elect BOE members they want and S. Dekalb can elect who they want. Then if S. Dekalb goes down the toilet, they chose it themselves. Right now S. Dekalb is dragging down ALL of Dekalb students.
DunMoody
February 26th, 2013
9:37 pm
Oscar, have you seen the demographics for North Dekalb schools? We have no “token” students of any background. We have students.
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
10:22 pm
Point is, wherever there is energy to be efficient and excellent, by all means allow it to be achieved. It’s like if I want to fix my yard and I am told I have to wait on my neighbor, and trust me, my neighbors have the civic instinct of a dried turd.
Mountain Man, Can you be serious, about, “Welll, Why isn’t South Dekalb wealthy, too?” Seriously, dude, by an airplane ticket and go visit India and ask them about wealth distribution and poverty. There’s rich and there is poor and that is a fact of life and it is called caste system. What makes for civilization is when we share resources so that the people who hold the broom and do the service jobs – which are very important and make it so the wealthy people can do their work, when we equalise services, this is the stepping stone to a rich country, something the USA has not figured out yet with this “every man for themselves” mentality. Hey Mountain Man, I’m really super rich and keep a private jet at the airport. Why do you just have that crappy 2013 Ford truck in the driveway of your crappy little brick split level home? In other words, it is a matter of perspective. Pardon me, but who the hell are you to be calling anyone else poor or less-than? In the humanities, we call this “othering people,” treating them as “other” and that is what you are doing. It is basically a form of bigotry. Allow me to summon a definition for you.
Actually, the more relevant term for your perspective is “bourgeois” : “marked by a concern for material interests and respectability”
Slang term adjective (you grammarian, you) is “bhoozie.” ‘Hope you understand.
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
10:32 pm
Why isn’t South DeKalb wealthy? It ain’t Aspen, my friend, where the billionaires threw out the millionaires. ( Estimated median house or condo value in 2009: $873,592 )
Mandella1099
February 26th, 2013
10:33 pm
While I support these cities in their drive to start their own school system, their hypocrisy would be comical if it wasn’t so sad…
…these same parents and communities that have complained about the DeKalb central office, calling it the Palace and everyone in it “educrats” (thank you Saint Nancy the Jester – still looking for your noble resignation) want to create a whole new set of central offices for their systems.
In the words of the “gnostic” genius John Trotter – Ha!
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
10:38 pm
mountain man, I have an assignment for you. Watch this movie and then report back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyttFaK-XSM
note: the movie is considered culturally significant enough that they allow it be featured for no fee.
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
10:47 pm
Mandella, I attended a meeting in that building one time and it was one of the more unfriendly experiences I can recall. The person running the meeting was very much full of themselves and gave the impression of having great power for a long time and every one attending was dirt to them. It was not a race thing either, not at at. For reasons I do not comprehend, there can be something toxic about centralised power. The term “educrat” is not unique to Georgia. There’s even an article on the term in San Francisco, 3500 miles from here. http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/saunders/article/DEBRA-J-SAUNDERS-What-Is-an-Educrat-3318078.php
However, this is an interesting discovery, “educrat” and “Decatur” are anagrams, sharing the same letters.
!
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
10:49 pm
And the San Francisco “What is an Educrat?” article is dated 1998, fifteen years ago.
Chamblee Dad
February 26th, 2013
10:50 pm
@concerned & diane. Is it naive or dilusional if my kids go to a Title 1 school that has met AYP for several years in a row & produces kids that go on to do well at Chamblee Middle & High. Class pictures almost look contrived like a PR firm producing a PC rainbow, except it’s real. And it works at our school level, DCSS used to work alot better too, why can’t it work again?
Private schools in my area? Yep. Also turns out many of the parents in our school went to Marist, St. Pius, etc. & could afford to send their kids there. Are they dilusional/naive? Or are they convinced they’ve got a pretty good thing, are working to make it better.
@concerned I appreciate your frustration, I share it too, I’ve only got 8 years fighting to improve DCSS, you’ve got me by 7. It seems to get harder every year. The budget in particular. As someone coming behind you, thank you for all your efforts, whatever they have been. I’d like to move from fighting to simple vigilance, maybe I won’t get there, but I’m not giving up.
Edugator
February 26th, 2013
10:52 pm
Thanks Chamblee Dad- I’m on board with you. This Balkanization of America is ultimately going to be destructive and divisive. The thought of more school boards and more superintendents and more administrators ought to be enough to convince anyone that creating more systems is a short sighted idea.
Private Citizen
February 26th, 2013
10:54 pm
It’s even in the Oxford dictionary! “an education administrator.” Any one up for a game of Educrat Bingo?! (from Illinois) http://www.illinoisloop.org/educrat_bingo.pdf
Chamblee Dad
February 26th, 2013
11:15 pm
Mom of 3 “change is good” Yes it can, depends on the change. “This is America, the lowly sailors can move to another fleet whenever they feel like it.” Really? I think a significant # of the 99K DCSS kids – the sailors in my post, would find that move you offer as a solution a little difficult to pull off.
“And FYI- there are black people in Dunwoody. There are no barriers. If you actually went to the schools you would see that. They are welcome here. Housing costs vary through out the city.” I thought the next thing you would say was “heck, some of my best friends are black.” And yes, I’ve been to a few DCPC meetings in schools outside 285, you do have black people.
But I don’t think my navy/sailor post even mentioned race. Yep, checked again, not there. No barriers? If you say so. I do know housing costs vary. I also know that when Dunwoody was faced with redistricting last time, all hell broke lose. Neighbor against neighbor. So depending on what side of Womack you live, or on what side of the Vanderlyn attendance line you fall, expecially after they were carefully redrawn. You might feel there are some barriers. I think some of those variable housing costs you tout were accounted for when those lines were drawn. Dunwoody speak was “multi-family housing units” if I remember the papers then.
concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
6:44 am
ChambleeDad
I am thrilled that you are pleased with your schools, but as you know many of your neighbors are not. They might want new options, such as a city system,
The culture of DeKalb is so incredibly messed up, that I don’t really see much hope for improvement. You worry about balkanization, but the system, with its myriad of choice programs that were/are funded more than neighborhood schools has provided a separate and unequal education for years. Equity issues in DeKalb haven’t been about geography for a long time, but whether your child’s name was drawn out of a hat.
Pardon My Blog
February 27th, 2013
6:50 am
I have said it before, but adding more cities to DeKalb is NOT the answer but I believe splitting the DeKalb system into two separate districts is or let the communities form Charter Clusters.
Starik
February 27th, 2013
6:55 am
What we have isn’t working, and can’t be fixed.
Private Citizen
February 27th, 2013
7:16 am
Sho ’nuff.
catlady
February 27th, 2013
8:18 am
I’m in favor of ANY town being allowed to pull out of the school system and have their own. Locally-determined school systems seem to do pretty. Well. Look at Buford and Decatur. Their people VALUE the education and SUPPORT the education of their kids. Since we are all about “choice” nowadays, cannot think of why this should not be enacted.
Clarence
February 27th, 2013
8:45 am
The counties own the buildings… i suppose they will just give them to the City for free? And doesn’t everyone always talk about “cutting the fat?” More board members and another central office to feed! There’s progress! I like the idea of a limit. Force some rural systems to consolidate if you want new city systems.
Johns Creek
February 27th, 2013
9:07 am
I do have to say that Johns Creek City Schools has a nice ring to it. A system who’s High Schools are Chattahoochee, Johns Creek, and Northview could very well compete with some of the finest systems in the country.
Brit
February 27th, 2013
9:10 am
I would like to see one of these people calling to be cut off from the rest of the county ( excellent analogy Chamblee Dad) spend some time on a cost analysis rather than kvetching on blogs. Do you have any idea what it costs to run a small school system. There is a readon City of Decatur has the hughest taxes in GA. They will all need seperate supers, seperate admin,seperate boards. And as Clarence says,buildings in Funwoody are the property of the county. If a city wants a building it will have to buy or lease it from the rest of the county. I have never seen any of the parents so desperate to declare their fiefdom even address this. Pay someone qualified to look into it. Work out the cost and the resulting tax increase. Poll city residents to see if they will accept those increases ( I can assure you those with no kids will not). Then, if you somehow get enough support, take those figures to the state BOE. Pointing out how terrible Dekalb County is on here and on DSW ( apart from St Nancy Jester, of course) just makes you look ineffectual.
Brit
February 27th, 2013
9:12 am
Apologies for typos. New phone, short on time.
Pardon My Blog
February 27th, 2013
9:22 am
I want people in the Lakeside area to ask themselves how much more do they want to be taxed? and will this really solve the issues we have? I have noticed this group is playing on the anger that the residents have about the whole school system mess but several years ago members of this group helped contribute to this mess. We don’t want to be forced to move because we are taxed out of the area.
I would like the Representatives to consider Charter Clusters with oversight by the State and not the DeKalb School Board. If this were given to the Lakeside district, would there be as much interest then? I tend to think not especially if this group gave out honest numbers on exact taxes and what that increase would provide.
concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
9:36 am
I would pay Decatur type taxes for Decatur type schools and results. However, Decatur City Schools has only 3664 students. A city of Sandy Spring school system, for example, would have 1000s more students, a quick estimate shows that Riverwood and North Springs high schools have about 3300 students total. Add the middle and elementary and it as at least double the size of Decatur if not more.
Radical idea, that a small school system can do more with less. No need to pay board members, if a community doesn’t want to. You can also pay them less than DCSS members make now. Most city councils make less than the DCSS board.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
10:00 am
I’ll throw this out there – Bu2 touched on this from the counter point, bu not the pro-city crowd, at least not fully head on.
The way this thing is written – 2005 on & adjacent – does come off as sneaky. And further, it leaves out all the other cities. I’ve heard more than a few times: “we want local control, those to the south can have it too, with the new smaller district.” But it’s not equal. If Stone Mountain wanted local control with a city system they can’t have it. Maybe they don’t want it it, but they have no choice. Net result: Dunwoody & new cities could have true geographically local control the rest don’t/can’t.
And that goes for almost all the county seats & other cities throughout the state. That comes off, at least to me, as we should get local control because we deserve it – our system is really bad. So bad we should amend the State Constitution. But after this select few no one else can have it. Is that motivated by selfish motivation &/or perhaps simple strategy to get it through the statehouse? If motivated by a true desire for “local control for all” shouldn’t all that language be removed.
And as NW GA Teacher says they might like it up there too, mentions Dalton city. That brings me to add this: I went thru Dalton City Schools 1970-1982, I had the advantage of a much better school system than the county kids (NW & SE Whitfield), it was a true example of the have & have nots. What if we had a unified system, would all have benefited, would it have pulled them up, us down or both? These days, as the growth spread into county it has gotten much better, but it took a tax base to do it.
Mountain Man
February 27th, 2013
10:30 am
“I went thru Dalton City Schools 1970-1982, I had the advantage of a much better school system than the county kids (NW & SE Whitfield), it was a true example of the have & have nots. What if we had a unified system, would all have benefited, would it have pulled them up, us down or both?”
Chamblee Dad – I attended Dalton City Schools, also. They were the better schools. My parents made it a point to move into the city to go to them. I think if you look at systems, when you unify a system, you always pull the good down to the level of the worst, not the other way around. The worst are the worst because of their practices, such as not dealing with discipline and attendance. When you unify the system, you don’t get any better at not doing this.
Mountain Man
February 27th, 2013
10:33 am
“We don’t want to be forced to move because we are taxed out of the area.”
A lot of people (in Dunwoody, perhaps) don’t want to have to move because they have a crappy County school system and their school is about to lose its accreditation.
Brit
February 27th, 2013
10:44 am
Well Mountain Man, like I said ‘a lot of people’ is not a quantifiable amount. Until you poll every resident on whether they want a big hike to pay for schools ( unproven schools, there is no evidence to support that a locally controlled school would be any better) then all you are doing is supporting the minority – pissed parents of school age children who use public schools.
Concerned mom, you would pay Decatur taxes because you have school age kids. Those without kids probably would vote against paying a lot more. Plus you would still have to pay some Dekalb County taxes as well, just like Decatur city residents do. Talking about how much it costs to run a brand new school system is pie in the sky. Where is the capital investment coming from? So apparently now you don’t need a board at all. I would like to see how that works. Who would oversee the superintendent? Don’t tell me, Dekalb School Watch?
Mountain Man
February 27th, 2013
11:33 am
“Until you poll every resident on whether they want a big hike to pay for schools ”
That is what the ballot box is for. The amendment just gives cities the option. You can vote in whomever you wish.
This option probably never would have emerged except for the BOE’s fighting to keep their positions even when they are doing a failing job. I just like having more choice other than being trapped by the county.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
11:35 am
@ mountain man nice to talk to a fellow Catamount.
Seems we agree on the facts of Dalton City vs. Whitfield County, at least back then, it wasn’t equal. Then you answer my question by saying a unified system would pull the city down. But remember when we integated around 1976, built new high school, combined Dalton with Fort Hill, the school that was literally “across the tracks” = people who owed/ran the carpet mills, doctors & lawyers thrown in, to the west; the people who worked in the carpet mills to the east. The worry was it could bring us down, didn’t happen. It was still a very good school, well at least by Georgia standards. Ther were no private schools, a system for all. Wealth/tax based was shared, benefited all.
Maybe we lived the rare exception, but I think DCSS was much better at one time, plenty of old-timers say so & lament the fall. But what if you do the reverse, pull out a disproportionate portion of the tax base? What happens to the “have nots” left? Are they like Whitfield County?
Are we telling them – sorry, that’s a “you” problem?
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
February 27th, 2013
11:43 am
Really, what’s the point of discussing whether we should/should not do this? Won’t Millar/Jacobs just wave the magic cityhood wand over this and make it reality, regardless of the long term effects it may have on the entirety of DCSS?
What’s more, it’s a huge contradiction that folks who trumpet the cause of “a quality education for every Dekalb student with equal funding, etc.” are the same folks who are first in line to form their own city district, despite the harm it would have on those underfunded students/schools they’re supposedly here to advocate for.
Mountain Man
February 27th, 2013
11:49 am
“Are we telling them – sorry, that’s a “you” problem?”
They had their chance to make it work as a unified system – and they blew it. So the people left have two choices – pull out if the new amendment passes – or start looking for a house in a different county. That is what would have happened if the unified system in Dalton had been dragged down. Dalton WAS an exception.
Mountain Man
February 27th, 2013
11:51 am
“a quality education for every Dekalb student with equal funding, etc.”
Funding has absolutely nothing to do with quality education. Look at the difference between Cobb county and APS – APS spends MUCH more per student – whith a lot WORSE results.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
February 27th, 2013
12:02 pm
Meanwhile, Dunwoody currently has some of the best schools in Dekalb.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
12:18 pm
@mountain man agreed that it’s not just the $$ it’s how you spend it. And more than that, if it even gets to the schools, alot of squandered $$ in DCSS. But alot could be accomplished with the budget we have, even with dwindling tax revenuews. To me, that means get the system going back in the right direct, the right people making the right decisions, this thing could work alot better, as it did before.
Pipe dream? Maybe, evidenced by the voting decisions of many? certainly. But there has been some churn, just not enough & not the right ones, at least as perceived by many. Biggest churn has been at super. & none of it good. Could a legit enough board be seated to hire a qualified super. who is the right fit? That remains the biggest question to me.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
12:20 pm
revenues
archie
February 27th, 2013
12:45 pm
Back in the days of the semi-legendary DeKalb suprintendent Jim Cherry, I had to spend twelve years listening to the DeKalb School System brag about themselves. Ye gods, how the mighty have fallen in recent years! If Dunwoody wants to split off and form their own school system, well and good but that is going to take money and where are they going to get the buildings for three schools unless they assume DCPS is going to just “hand them over?”
Leo
February 27th, 2013
1:00 pm
This doesn’t have to be about “has and has not” from a funding perspective. Collect the money singularly and then divide it up based on population. Each kid gets the same amount of money for education regardless of where the go to school. Some systems, I suspect, would make better use of this money than others. I recently attended an information session about a new public charter school. They’ll have a lot less money but appear to be funded well enough to ensure small class sizes plus all of the “specials” that people covet at their home schools. If they can do it at one school, it makes logical sense that a larger school system could do it too, but for whatever reason, we are seeing that our larger systems “can’t” do it.
Returning DCSS Parent
February 27th, 2013
1:07 pm
@mountain man, same rhetoric regarding South DeKalb. It is clear you have not visted our community as it consists of more than the 3 high schools mentioned. Arabia Mountain High School is the FIRST green ribbon high school in the state of GA and is located in Lithonia. Every student in the school is required to wear uniforms and take accelerated classes. Students must be chosen by lottery in order to attend and must have a solid B average. Students that cannot keep up are offered remedial help. Ultimately, the requirements to remain at the school are high and as a parent of a 9th grader, I love it. So, please spare me your biased opinions about what goes on in my community as clearly, you are still uniformed and have no desire to learn the truth about South DeKalb citizens.
If Dunwoody and Sandy Springs want their own districts, they should be able to do it without my tax dollars. All these little fifedoms popping up and want to take the commercial tax base with them leaving unicorporated DeKalb to foot the bills for everyone else. When Dunwoody was granted cityhood, I was not allowed to vote even though they decided Perimeter Mall and surrounding areas should be included as part of their city. ALL of DeKalb made Perimeter Mall what it is today, not the 32K citizens living in Dunwoody. The politicians at the Gold Dome made it easy for Dunwoody to become a city and take a large portion of the county’s tax base. So create your school district but know that your city, is still part of DeKalb, whether you like it or not. Be careful what you ask for…, it may not turn out as you had hoped.
markoo
February 27th, 2013
1:14 pm
I say yes, though I am in an area of DeKalb that will suffer because it will never be incorporated and never leave DeKalb county schools.
d
February 27th, 2013
1:33 pm
Just one thing about the accreditation concerns – I think the individual high schools should seek out their own accreditation. That eliminates the problem with the district accrediation, and why do elementary and middle schools need it anyway?
As far as the amendment, I think the 2005 date will kill the amendment. Remember this would have to go to a state-wide vote, and to the best of my knowledge, we’ve had a handful of cities created in Fulton, one in DeKalb and one in Gwinnett. There are 156 other counties out there.
TM
February 27th, 2013
1:52 pm
Given the circumstances, at first blush it seems appropriate, perhaps ideal for Dunwoody and other new cities to be able to create their own school districts. Clearly these parents have the right and obligation to their children and taxpayers to provide the best schools/education that their resources (financial and political) can muster. But, if it is done in a vacuum, it may prove to be short sighted.
The DCSS problems are systemic, not just in terms of its current leadership, but also in terms of the transition from suburban to a more urban setting – density, significant changes in area demographics due to a myriad of factors, and the overall condition of U.S. public education. DCSS is facing these challenges with a culture and set of resources (including leadership) that are not aligned with the circumstances. The transition required is challenging – painful, and filled with uncertainty and much collateral damage. But for the learn term, it should be thought through with a broad set of considerations – growth, productive neighboring communities, and geographic competencies for competitiveness.
One approach to the problem is to circle the wagons, create an island, or build fences – pick a metaphor. The problem with this approach is, that it may intensify the insecurities of both, those inside and outside of the new cities, undermines the collective wisdom required to solve the problems, and in the long run make it more expensive than alternative approaches to grow, compete, and have strong neighbors.
I think in would be far more productive for rational minds and major stakeholders (major landowners, business owners, professional negotiators, political leaders, etc) from the major quadrants of the county to establish a collective and comprehensive, transition agenda that helps to crystallize the priorities and leadership types required for the success of the entire county. It may mean more and smaller school disricts within the county, or it may mean more robust efforts only to collaborate to address DeKalb school and government ills.
The bi-partisan, cross culture support demonstrated on the DCSS BoE suspension give me hope and evidence for alternative options for success.
skipper
February 27th, 2013
1:59 pm
Call it race….call it whatever. Elephant in the room: folks in this system for whatever reason will elect a board THAT IS NOT CAPABLE of running a school system. Then, everybody has to suffer. There were inequalities/injustices for a long time so….how do folks solve them? By putting self-serving buffoons on the board, then playing the race card when they are called out for being the nuts they are. Why holler about education when most just want “us” in charge with no pre-requisite of success or true education. Who the heck would move in and send a kit to one of the inner city clusters!
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
2:06 pm
@ returning “If Dunwoody and Sandy Springs want their own districts, they should be able to do it without my tax dollars.” That’s exactly what they want to do. They don’t need your tax dollars.
“All these little fifedoms popping up and want to take the commercial tax base with them leaving unicorporated DeKalb to foot the bills for everyone else.” Given today’s current economic climate, that’s the reality. According to many here – “that’s a you problem.”
Lastly – You sound like a proud resident of the Lithonia area. Good for you, local pride can carry you far. I’m not sure if you would ever want your own Lithonia city school system. But since the actual city is only about 2K, and the surrounding community about 15K, better annex them in. But wait, the way this is written, still won’t work, the whole 2005 deal. Why is that? Easier to get by statehouse & voters (still not convinced it helps, creative? yes, effective? too early to call), or is it because only the new cities deserve/can be trusted to run a school system?
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
2:11 pm
@d I agree that change in accreditation should be one of the primary efforts right now.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
2:29 pm
@ TM Dead on! Thanks for articulating much of what’s been bouncing around in my head & those of us who are not prepared to abandon ship. Problem is they write us off as naive & dilusional. Nobody says it won’t be easy, I’ll even concede it might not be that possible, but I think it’s worth trying. Metrowide – improved education, it benefits us all. DeKalb schools falls apart, it won’t happen in vacuum, it impacts the entire area. Just like bad economy – even if not in your neighborhood.
It might be that much harder if those who want to leave won’t come to the table you describe as alternative 2.
skipper
February 27th, 2013
2:34 pm
Chamblee Dad,
Can’t wish the warts off a hog, fella’!
Eugene Walker Must Go
February 27th, 2013
3:43 pm
This is a great example of cart before the horse. What is needed is more school districts, probably 10 or 11 with 9-10K students per district. Some communities don’t have the option to become municipalities as they don’t have large enough business districts to generate revenue. Obviously, a school district of 99,000 students is not manageable. More school districts YES, more municipalities OPTIONAL.
Truth in Moderation
February 27th, 2013
3:43 pm
“I grew up in Atlanta and am back in Atlanta”
WHY IS THAT? IT’S CHEAPER? FAMILY LIVES HERE (because it’s cheaper)? You could actually find a job?
, but lived in Abington PA, township outside of Philadelphia. Abington has its own schools, property taxes are higher, but the schools were good. –
Yes, NO POOR PEOPLE in your district. If you were POOR, what would your public school experience be like?
I noticed that “Sandy Hook” type communities are popular up North.
After YEARS of Southern whites continually being bashed for RACISM (including bussing students AND teachers) because they might try to stick together in a community or use private schools, I AM SICK TO DEATH OF THIS NOBLE NORTHERN HYPOCRISY!!!!!!!!!! YOU WERE BEHIND IT!
New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Pennsylvania are some of the most CORRUPT STATES in the U.S. (besides California). Because of that, THE NOBLE NORTHERNERS can no longer afford the high price tag of the “superior public schools” because their corrupt FORMER benefactors, THE WALL STREET GANG, has turned the tables on them AND RUN THEM OUT OF TOWN! (Try renting a one-bedroom apartment in Manhattan).
So where do they go? Why South, of course. Land of LOW TAXES and CHEAP HOUSING, THANKS TO THE WALL STREET GANG.(Goldman Sachs junk mortgages, anyone?). I hate to bust your bubble, but your Wall Street overlords do NOT fund Georgia. So what do the brilliant 21st century carpet baggers do? They blow into town and act like the RACIST REDNECKS they spent years defaming. Oh, but they made sure to get control of the “press” so the truth WOULD NOT GET OUT! Who cares about the Constitution, WHEN YOU CAN BRIBE to get your way.
Even Southern racists had more integrity than YOU. At least they started private schools and PAID THEIR OWN WAY, leaving the school tax money to go a bit further for those in need. AND YOU? NO WAY! You want to SEGREGATE YOURSELVES and GOBBLE UP MORE THAN YOUR FAIR SHARE OF THE TAX DOLLARS. Sandy Hook ll.
But of course, YOU DESERVE IT. You are so much smarter! JUST ASK NOBLE NORTHERNER (Skull and Bones) JOHN KERRY! He paid a visit to the fabled land of “Kyrzakhstan” to christen his new (political payoff) job as Secretary of State. Don’t know about you, but HEINZ Ketchup is FORBIDDEN in my house. Some Southerners STILL HAVE STANDARDS.
But don’t worry NOBLE NORTHERNERS, Southerners don’t like to stereotype like you do. We see each of you as individuals.
Remember, Obama promises NEW BRAINS FOR ALL in 2023. THAT WILL FINALLY MAKE US ALL EQUAL!
Ned
February 27th, 2013
3:45 pm
Should constitution be amended to allow Dunwoody, Brookhaven, Sandy Springs to create own school districts?
No. Or at least not unless Stone Mountain, Chamblee, Doraville, Clarkston, Pine Lake, Lithonia, Tucker . . . are also allowed to do the same.
Seriously, what is the point of limiting this to just newer, more affluent communities?
Edugator
February 27th, 2013
4:21 pm
Wow- Truth in Moderation. Talk about false advertising. Thanks Chamblee Dad for injecting sanity into the blogosphere, and to those other posters who point out the absurdity of these proposals to create school systems just for the affluent.
Truth in Moderation
February 27th, 2013
4:42 pm
“Talk about false advertising.”
Thank you for correcting my opinion, Noble Northerner!
Shrek
February 27th, 2013
4:48 pm
YES! And the republicans under the gold dome better ram some conservative laws down the dems throats while we have a huge majority in house, senate & Gov.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
4:52 pm
@ Archie “Back in the days of the semi-legendary DeKalb suprintendent Jim Cherry, I had to spend twelve years listening to the DeKalb School System brag about themselves. Ye gods, how the mighty have fallen in recent years!”
What happened to DCSS in your mind? Other old-timers (and not so old) out there, please share – what do you personally think. I’m sincerely interested.
I’ve heard well-thought out analysis as set forth by TM – a county-wide transition, not just on the educational level, but in many aspects. It does ring true.
But when it comes to those focused on the schools primarily, rather than TM’s super big picture, I’ve heard from others, & in my mind witnessed/discovered the more I was compelled to dig, this:
A culture of entitlement was built at the central office until it was bulging at the seams. Way to many unneeded positions being filled by more & more coming in to the point they felt they need a new building to hold them all. Building an inertia, a growing mass of illegit friends & family hires, flaunting of conflicts of interests, pet projects & special programs that never worked, implementation of IT system that never worked, corruption in the construction process that ended in criminal charges, less & less $$ getting to the schools from Title 1 & countless other sources, an insane legal bill, horrible accounting, a culture of secrecy, intimidation & fear, and an impressive process to distract the people from much of this (blue ribbon committees & public input meetings galore). I know I’m missing alot more, but still a mouthful.
Who did this? The Supers. going back to Lewis at least, a huge cadre at the CO & plenty of pushing & meddling from a board that often participated instead of trying to reign it in.
Old-timers & observers/school advocates, am I close?
Begs question, can THAT be fixed, with a new board hiring a new super. cleaning house from top to bottom? Seems like many have been asking for that for years, I know I have. Many have reached the opinion it’s too late. Is it?
@skipper “Can’t wish the warts off a hog, fella’!” Can a get a new & better pig? Or do I need to slaughter the pig & bring home a litter of piglets?
Pardon My Blog
February 27th, 2013
4:56 pm
@Truth – Did you forget to take your meds again?!
Returning DCSS Parent
February 27th, 2013
5:17 pm
@Chamblee Dad, I live in unicorporated DeKalb which includes parts of Lithonia but not the city of Lithonia. Huge difference in schools and tax base. I get your point.
mountain man
February 27th, 2013
5:31 pm
“Or do I need to slaughter the pig & bring home a litter of piglets? – ”
Yes – and that is what the Governor is trying to do.
Truth in Moderation
February 27th, 2013
5:59 pm
@Chamblee Dad
Of course you like living in what was once known in the ’70’s as “Chambodia”. Guess who built your community and competitive schools? Yes, those poor Cambodian Asian refugees that Nixon let in after the Vietnam War disaster. Your semsibilities probably wouldn’t have favored the rather poor ESL community of the ’70’s. But the Asians were hard working and thankful to come to America. They have greatly contributed to the area. One of my son’s best friend grew up there.
Adam Smith
February 27th, 2013
5:59 pm
As for the Dunwoody thing, you need to understand that the county imposes tremendous obstacles to improving the learning environment. It’s not always about the problems at the central office. There are some poor teachers at DHS. Parents complain about them semester after semester, year after year, but they have friends in high places and are impossible to remove. There are poor administrators who lack a basic grasp of the English language and who hound and harass the best teachers at the high school (best teachers in the sense they have been recognized as teachers of the year and enjoy overwhelming support from students and parents). These people poison the atmosphere of the school, lower morale for everybody and drive talented teachers to other systems and schools. The parents are POWERLESS to improve this situation. The incompetent ones are protected from on high. This is one major reason for the movement to create a new district – to gain a measure of control over the schoolhouse(s).
Truth in Moderation
February 27th, 2013
6:04 pm
“Did you forget to take your meds again?!”
Could you please explain your OT comment? I don’t get it. I am sure a brilliant Noble Northerner like you can explain it to me. Thanks!
Truth in Moderation
February 27th, 2013
6:33 pm
NO!
These upscale communities should do what Southerners have always done….start private schools or home school.
Here’s why: these communities are the cash cows of their districts. The “poor” in their district DO depend on their excess. The problem is educrat parasites have crept into the “public” school system and are siphoning off money that should benefit the poor. The result is more money is demanded to run the school in the name of the”poor” and property taxes go up, while the quality of the public schools go down. All in the name of the “poor”. If the wealthy quit being greedy and trying to “get back” what you paid in taxes, IT WOULD ACTUALLY BE CHEAPER, AND THE”POOR” WOULD HAVE BETTER SCHOOLS. The rich would have the clout to throw out educrat FREELOADERS, because their own children would not be held hostage by the public schools. The rich get their superior education that they have paid for, and the poor get something better than they could have provided themselves. If enough of the rich pull out, the parasite bloat will be forced to decrease. and there will be better schools FOR LESS! If public schools aren’t viewed AS CHARITIES, then what purpose do they serve? We should get rid of them now, because THEY ARE COSTING US OUR CONSTITUTIONAL FREEDOMS and in exchange, we are getting an inferior product.
Private Citizen
February 27th, 2013
6:36 pm
administrators who… hound and harass the best teachers at the high school… These people poison the atmosphere of the school, lower morale for everybody and drive talented teachers to other systems and schools.
That’s my experience in real life and they have some kind of hundred year nest in the central office. Literally, folk who just go around and harass people and get paid for it. This same group or mode or whatever harass principals, too, and violate chain of command just as some school board members have been identified to do. These roving greater-admin just go around and inject themselves wherever they like. I’ve seen one occupy a principal’s office and act like they’re principal and cause the real principal, a good and capable person, to almost have a nervous breakdown. The subject was that the occupier was trying to malign teacher work reviews. The same person made teacher work reviews, messed them up, and then issued a second set of work reviews, which must be illegal. Really really wide open abuse of people, from these people who have put in their years, get executive pay, and then “hang around” a school district.
I truly wish there was a way to address it. Only a couple of weeks ago, a guy told me his teacher wife is being harassed in the work place. It just goes on and on.
Edugator
February 27th, 2013
6:48 pm
Chamblee Dad, please submit your name to be appointed to the Board by Gov. Deal. Your summation of DeKalb history is spot on. Might as well go back to the sainted Jim Cherry, who designed a system of tiny (and expensive) neighborhood schools and hung on to segregation until compelled by the courts to end it, thereby subjecting DeKalb to decades of stifling court supervision.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
6:51 pm
@mountain man At this point I think the Governor is trying to give us a new pig – whole hog style, probably still have warts. But for now, I’ll take it. At least see how it works out.
My litter of little piggies is a group of separate city school systems in DeKalb, perhaps rendering the old pig into bacon & ham. But piggies grow up into pigs & all pigs oink.
I think this is where truth is supposed to tell me I don’t need a pig at all, get another farm animal altogether, what would be good for homeschooling? Rooster maybe? They do alot of crowing. Sorry truth, couldn’t resist that one.
Truth in Moderation
February 27th, 2013
7:02 pm
@Chamblee Dad
If you want to continue to “ionk” like a PIG, be my guest. LOL!
dekalbite@Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
7:04 pm
“What happened to DCSS in your mind? Other old-timers (and not so old) out there, please share – what do you personally think. I’m sincerely interested.”
Halford decided to use the “business model” in the mid 1990s so DeKalb was set up into small regions, (I don’t remember the number – I believe it was 16 regions ).
Each region was supposed to be it’s own “business center” with its own executive superintendent (a regional superintendent by a different name). The success of the schools in that region was to rest on the shoulders of that regional superintendent. This is a sound business model the BOE was told.
A bureaucratic nightmare ensued. Each regional superintendent hired his/her own fulltime content coordinators (what power!). Each of the 16 “teams” had a social studies, math, language arts, and science coordinator, an assistant superintendent, and a few others.
Within a year, Dekalb had close to 100 very highly administrators on the “teams”.
The coordinators were drawn from classroom teachers and given much higher pay than even an Lead Teacher positions (no APS at that time – Lead Teachers who were paid a stipend of around $2,000 a year more than a teacher). Many were very good teachers.
Meanwhile, everything at the teacher and classroom level went on as before. Most teachers were not aware of these changes as all this went on above their heads and didn’t impact the classroom as far as they could see. Mainly the teams met and planned and met and planned. There was a very substantial impact on the budget but property values were going up so the taxes did too.
The business model didn’t work as planned. Regional superintendents kept changing (every year) so no one was ever in place long enough to take responsibility for his/her area. Also, the area boundaries began to change. Some areas were collapsed into other areas and others were eliminated. Political infighting ensued among the regional superintendents as to who would be left standing and who had the power. A “clash of the Titans” began in the Central Office. Who has the power continues today.
The “team” members began to be shuffled between teams or put into Central Office positions created for them so they wouldn’t have to go back into the classrooms (huge decrease in pay if they did that). The “team” members were very nervous during this time, fearful that they would lose their admin positions and their pay increases.
But in the end everything worked out for the team members – Central Office positions were created for them as the “team” concept was slowly phased out. Most of the original team members are gone due to the Brown and Lewis buyouts. The regional superintendents who made the highest bucks were absorbed back into the system, and jobs were created with titles commensurate with their pay when they were regional superintendents.
That “team” business center concept of the mid 90s was the beginning of rise of the Central office administrators. The Central Office came to be filled with numerous highly paid instructional supervisors and coordinators. Power centers and alliances were established. Those “team” positions morphed into different positions to match the alliances and power centers we have today.
Many people in the Central Office today may not realize they owe their jobs to the legacy of the “team” concept started by Halford.
Before the “team” concept of the mid 90s, Dekalb functioned with very few coordinators.
For example, the Language Arts coordinator Ginny Mickish handled all of Language Arts as well as ESOL so teachers knew exactly who to go to – and by the way, Ginny didn’t mind if any teacher came directly to her with any concerns or problems. Her door was always open.
.
The idea of regional superintendents was tried 15 years ago. The results Dekalb saw:
1. They were not really independent
2. They promoted some terrible infighting and “turf” wars
2. They gave rise to a horrific bureaucracy that we are still trying to tame today
3. The regional boundaries and superintendents were shifted so frequently no one was ultimately responsible for anything
dekalbite@Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
7:06 pm
I tried to describe how the rise of the administrative positions were first created under Halford, but I guess my comment was caught in the filter. So sorry. It was very detailed.
Sandy Springs Parent
February 27th, 2013
8:07 pm
Some of you just don’t get it smaller school districts are less expensive. The don’t have the administrative bloat. everyone knows each other, you don’t have all he fake free lunch applications, which then gets the Title one money. But with the title one money comes the overhead bloat to administer it. So simple stop the fraud. You don’t need assistant supt., huge HR departments. You outsource payroll to a payroll company. Your bussing cost goes down, kids are walking to school. The County doesn’t own the schools the taxpayers do. The schools are simply transferred from one government agency from another, for a nominal $1.
TM
February 27th, 2013
8:21 pm
@ Chamblee Dad – Thanks for the earlier feedback
@ dekalbite (7:04 post) Great analysis – very insightful and instructive
Concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
8:46 pm
Chamblee Dad
So the culture of entitlement presents itself in a host of ways across DCSS, not just at the central office. I believe that Dekalb’s downfall began with the creation of lots of choice programs, theme schools, magnet schools, etc. Boutique programs and country club type schools that allowed more resources to pour into some communities while most of the system went without. These parents, particularly the high achievers and arts magnet parents and the S. DeKalb theme school parents, are/were a powerful bunch. Superintendents who crossed them had a problem, part of why Brown was run off was because he threatened to shutter the theme schools. The funding that went to these schools was disgraceful, at its high point, given how little neighborhood schools had to work with.
The biggest damage these parents might have done was voting based on a candidate’s blind loyalty to these programs. In fact, Melvin Johnson probably won in part of his support of magnet school transportation. Ty just quoted an Arabia Mt. parent who doesn’t want the board removed. The status quo works well for her and others. A solid portion of Cunningham’s support comes from his support of choice programs.
In many cases, the neighborhood schools that parents opt out of are dreadful, but that is in part because there are no parents demanding change. I don’t think anyone should be trapped in a bad school, look at what our new Super said about his own daughter once she couldn’t get in a theme school, but something has to give. When you take the involved, committed parents out of a school, then no one demands better.
Concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
8:54 pm
TM
I appreciate your comments as well, but the reality in DeKalb is this. Unlike the City of Atlanta were business leaders, civic leaders and others came together to put focus on the schools there, we don’t have true power brokers in DeKalb. (And we can debate how well that worked out in Atlanta.) While I view the DeKalb situation as a Metro Atlanta problem, I am not sure others agree. You can relocate a company to Perimeter Center and not have to worry because your employees can easily live in Fulton or Cobb.
Before Ellis’ problems, I approached him and asked him to take a stand on the challenges DCSS faced. I asked him to use Mayor Reed as a model, to have the same courage to demand change. It was clear that wasn’t going to happen.
While I see some collaboration, it is important to note that none of the African-American DeKalb legislators, who reside in DeKalb and represent mostly DeKalb, has publicly supported the Governor. Some, like Billy Mitchell, have criticized him. (Wonder if Mitchell has look at St. Mountain High’s SAT scores lately where the mean Math score has dropped 40+ points since 2004 and the mean reading score has dropped 45+ points in the same period.)
Forgive me for being discouraged, but this problem has been around for a long time and lots of important and influential folks have turned a blind eye….
just a mom
February 27th, 2013
9:06 pm
Here is what I suspect will happen with the school buildings if Dunwoody is allowed to create its own school system. The schools inside the geographical boundaries of the new system will be transferred (either free or at a nominal cost) to the new system. This is how it worked when the City of Dunwoody was created as well. Most of the county assets within the city limits (Brook Run, Dunwoody Nature Center, Dunwoody Park, Spruill Art Center) were “sold” to the city at a nominal cost. The rationale is that we (Dunwoody residents) paid for them through our taxes. It’s like a divorce. The assets that were accumulated during the marriage are divided up.
Re the racial issues that everyone seems to want to insert into everything on this blog, there are plenty of folks of all races in Dunwoody. A lot of people assume it is all white out here. That is just not the case. Honestly people, it is not that hard to check these kinds of facts. We have by my county 7 public schools in the city limits (I am not counting Hightower, even though that is in our cluster, b/c it sits just outside the city limits and so I assume would not become part of the new system, athough some of the students who go to Hightower live in the city limits and thus would need to be transferred to Dunwoody schools) and all but like two of them are very racially diverse. As in, they are probably among THE MOST DIVERSE SCHOOLS in the entire county. The schools my children attend are all very diverse (along the lines of 40% white, 40% black, 20% other) and we love these schools. Please don’t assume that just b/c we live OTP we are all a bunch of white racists. We have diversity here and that is one of the reasons we choose to live here.
dekalbite@concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
10:31 pm
“So the culture of entitlement presents itself in a host of ways across DCSS, not just at the central office. I believe that Dekalb’s downfall began with the creation of lots of choice programs, theme schools, magnet schools, etc.”
The magnet program was created to escape from the Consent Decree DeKalb was under which dealt with racial integration. They were created as a “choice” to go to an integrated school. By creating highly attractive magnet schools with extremely low pupil teacher ratios and up to date science equipment, foreign language teachers, extra technology, free transportation for all students no matter how far away they were from the school, etc. and holding lotteries choosing 50% African American students and 50% White and Other, DeKalb “attracted” thousands of students to voluntarily integrate. This is the SOLE reason the magnet and special programs were created. The Consent Decree was enormously expensive. This was compounded by the Roger Mills lawsuit which instituted the very expensive “M to M” (Minority to Majority) program and delayed building ANY schools in South DeKalb for over a decade resulting in severe overcrowding in this rapidly growing area.
As DeKalb came off the Consent Decree, the political landscape was changing, and Supreme Court decisions (DeKalb’s coming off the Consent decree was one of the groundbreaking ones – does anyone remember this?) were going the other way.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0503_0467_ZO.html
Magnet and special programs morphed into entitlements for the “lucky” or “well connected” (read Central Office and administrative personnel and their friends and family), and today the average parent of a magnet or special programs’ student has no idea that magnets were created solely to satisfy court challenges coming out of the Civil Rights laws and court decisions.
The magnet programs are wasteful and inefficient in DeKalb mainly because they were created to be stand alone “attractions” to get parents to voluntarily integrate. The purpose they serve today is nothing like the purpose they served when they were created. They were not created to “attract” students who have the same talents and interests (e.g. science, math, performing arts, business, high achievers, etc.). Nor were they established with efficiency and cost effectiveness. They need to be revamped for the purpose they serve today, not the purpose they were established for so many years ago.
TM
February 27th, 2013
10:39 pm
@ Concernedmom
Thanks for your feedback; your concerns are of all valid. I’ll admit to being an eternal optimist
and hope that this “wake-up call” will be a catalyst for major stakeholder engagement. The are significant landholders, business and civic interests in unicorporated DeKalb, who can’t move the land, assets, or interests into the newly formed cities. Hopefully, especially given the speed with which these events began to spiral, they now have new incentives for greater, more consistent involvement.
TM
February 27th, 2013
10:44 pm
There is way too much at stake.
dekalbite@concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
11:05 pm
I commented about the history of magnets in DeKalb but it was caught in the filter for some reason.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
11:33 pm
@dekalbite @concerned @tm Now THAT’S the type of info. exchange I’m talking about. The history of what went before Lewis (I feel comfortable of my knowledge of last 8 years), that was very enlightening – thanks for taking the time, really, thanks.
2 things as I re-read your posts:
1 – Some people could actually get something from a blog like this if more of the exchange was just that, a coming together, I bet most have something to contribute, a little teasing, snarkiness, jabs can be fun, but some the condescending tones & rants on here – I guess if it makes you good, go ahead. Not singing Kumbaya, but still . . . ideas can be challenged without being mocked.
2- What I read about bad decisions & a culture that goes back even before Lewis, and read more as cold history rather than heated politics of geographic/racial/economic division, tells a tale, at least to me, of something that can be fixed. myself earlier: “with a new board hiring a new super. cleaning house from top to bottom . . .”
Fellow posters feel free to call me naive, dilusional, overly optimist, wasting my time, whatever. I’ve got thick skin = lawyer. But I’m pushing for my own schools & the whole system.
Dekalbite@Chamblee Dad
February 28th, 2013
12:00 am
I posted the history of magnets but that was caught in the filter. I’ll try again.
dekalbite@concernedmom30329
February 28th, 2013
12:07 am
The culture of entitlement presents itself in a host of ways across DCSS, not just at the central office. I believe that Dekalb’s downfall began with the creation of lots of choice programs, theme schools, magnet schools, etc.”
The magnet program was created to escape from the Consent Decree DeKalb was under which dealt with racial integration. They were created as a “choice” to go to an integrated school. By creating highly attractive magnet schools with extremely low pupil teacher ratios and up to date science equipment, foreign language teachers, extra technology, free transportation for all students no matter how far away they were from the school, etc. and holding lotteries choosing 50% African American students and 50% White and Other, DeKalb “attracted” thousands of students to voluntarily integrate. This is the SOLE reason the magnet and special programs were created. The Consent Decree was enormously expensive. This was compounded by the Roger Mills lawsuit which instituted the very expensive “M to M” (Minority to Majority) program and delayed building ANY schools in South DeKalb for over a decade resulting in severe overcrowding in this rapidly growing area.
As DeKalb came off the Consent Decree, the political landscape was changing, and Supreme Court decisions (DeKalb’s coming off the Consent decree was one of the groundbreaking ones – does anyone remember this?) were going the other way.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0503_0467_ZO.html
Magnet and special programs morphed into entitlements for the “lucky” or “well connected” (read Central Office and administrative personnel and their friends and family), and today the average parent of a magnet or special programs’ student has no idea that magnets were created solely to satisfy court challenges coming out of the Civil Rights laws and court decisions.
The magnet programs are wasteful and inefficient in DeKalb mainly because they were created to be stand alone “attractions” to get parents to voluntarily integrate. The purpose they serve today is nothing like the purpose they served when they were created. They were not created to “attract” students who have the same talents and interests (e.g. science, math, performing arts, business, high achievers, etc.). Nor were they established with efficiency and cost effectiveness. They need to be revamped for the purpose they serve today, not the purpose they were established for so many years ago.
Brit
February 28th, 2013
9:49 am
@justamom Public parks and hard assets are not the same thing. Dekalb county is not going to ‘gift’ you buildings that were paid for by a countywide taxation system. Transferring upkeep of parks to a new city is a no brainer for a county, but giving away buildings, equipment and (presumably) staff is never going to happen without one hell of a fight (and a hefty pay out at the front end). There are also all the hidden costs that Dunwoody would have to foot. Janitors, building repairs, upkeep etc. As I said, if you all raised some money and commissioned a proper study into what this would all entail and cost, people ( and the state) would be more inclined to take you seriously. Whining on blogs or hypothesizing on ‘here’s how it will work’ makes you sound like petulant children. You are stamping your foot demanding something without any idea of how to achieve it.
CJae of EAV
February 28th, 2013
12:28 pm
What’s most interesting about this proposed bill is impact it would have on the still lingering questions about how public education is funded in GA. Since most public schools are funded via taxes accessed at the county level, if you begin to allow cities that lie across county lines to combine to form new school districts how is funding to be apportioned? How are capital assets to be divided (i.e. school buildings, equiptment, buses etc.) ??
It would seem to me that the most likely result will be more of the same bad governance behaviors and even bigger governance disputes trying to settle age old questions that in today’s context never met satisfactory resolve. While the idea sounds good in theory, I don’t think it could be practically manifested to the benefit of the children involved. And after all isn’t supposed to be about the children ????
CJae of EAV
February 28th, 2013
12:56 pm
Additionally, hile moving from an district wide accreditation to a model where each institution in the district is responsible for managing it own accreditation may sound good, let’s ask ourselves a basic question, Would such an approach be artificially making a SACS a bigger player than it ideally should be?
While we’re at it, Who decided that SACS was to be the arbiter of what constitutes a well run school from another? Given the proposed, should/would be allow the SACS monopoly to be broken up and bring in alternative accreditation agencies? Who then certifies the accreditation agencies?
PSDad
February 28th, 2013
1:39 pm
@Chamblee Dad… OK, I’ll bite. You are naive, delusional, overly optimist, and wasting your time on this board when you could be down at our local school lending a hand. Have you attended a PTA meeting? How about a DeKalb School Board meeting? Stopped by one of those schools in S. DeKalb to volunteer or just for a visity. I’m curious because I’ve done all of those things, and know most of the attorneys that are active in the middle and elementary schools in the Chamblee “cluster” and I suspect that we haven’t met.
Sure, it’s easy to be generally optimistic about having everyone work toward the same goal, but it won’t work in application because what we have a massive system that is hobbled by its size and can only apply a one size fits all approach to academics because the administrators are so distant from needs of each community. Smaller school systems can address community specific needs (whether socio-economic or cultural) much more effectively than our current system.
I don’t think that you are ready to accept that this system has constituents with needs that are simply to disparate to bridge through communal effort. I imagine that you will begin to realize this if you actually do act on your lofty suggestions. If you actually do decide to act on your vision for improving the school system, please shoot me an email when you’ve set-up that first meeting with the future school board to discuss your plan of action, I’d love to hear the specifics. You can reach me at DCSSDad@gmail.com.
Concernedmom30329
February 28th, 2013
1:40 pm
Brit, Just like with the new cities, I suspect a study will be required to answer all those questions. However, I expect that many communities are ready to pay just about anything to free themselves from dysfunctional school systems.
Also, the parks aren’t really that different from the schools. The parks are also a hard asset, many with rec facilities, tennis courts, etc across N. Fulton and Dunwoody that now “belong” to their respective cities. Given that most of these schools are quite old, a strong argument could be made for depreciation. Not saying something wouldn’t be paid, just saying it might not be as onerous as you think it will be.
Finally, all those hidden costs would be covered by tax revenues. I am fairly confident that a study will show that Dunwoody puts in more revenues than it takes out.
PSDad
February 28th, 2013
1:54 pm
Brit. @ You say public parks and hard assets are not the same thing. As someone who has worked on asset transfers in this type of situation for several clients, I can assure you that the process that the courts use to determine the value of park land isn’t much different than the process used to determine the the value of a building.
Truth in Moderation
February 28th, 2013
3:42 pm
I have a basic question, why are the Noble Northerners in Georgia?
It is obvious to a native that most of the bloggers here are “new”.
It’s always, “Up Naaaaawth, where we are smarter and richer, we really KNOW how to run schools. We don’t NEED private schools, because our publics are the best! And we have no poor African-American minorities to placate. Of course, we got run out of town because the TAXES on those fairyland schools and homes cost waaay more than our Ivy League jobs can now pay for. We can’t even afford a 250 sq. ft. apartment in Manhattan anymore.! Of course we are economically illiterate, because we actually thought WE were paying for our fairyland public schools all those years. We didn’t know it was Wall Street mob money. After all, they wear such nice expensive suits and spend their time talking to all the nice Senators about how they lost all those $BILLIONS, but know that the TAXPAYERS will help them out.
Well, it looks like those ignorant racist redneck yahoos down South still have some CHEAP REALESTATE, and low property taxes. AND I’M SURE THAT THEY ALSO HAVE FAIRYLAND SCHOOLS, JUST LIKE UP NORTH! So I’ll get a cheap mansion AND WON’T HAVE TO PAY MUCH IN TAXES FOR MY FAIRYLAND SCHOOLS. And everyone will be just like me, and think like me, and spend other’s money, just like me. And if not, SURELY, they will recognize my NOBLE NORTHERN heritage, AND FALL IN LINE . NOW you African American Southerners KNOW we are not racists, like your Southern whites. But really, you SOUTH DEKALBITES are obviously inferior and incapable of running OUR schools. Why don’t you just form your own little country down there. Didn’t Abe Lincoln have a program like thet? Seeeeee! Racism is NOT in our noble vocabulary.”
Truth in Moderation
February 28th, 2013
4:16 pm
“I don’t think that you are ready to accept that this system has constituents with needs that are simply to disparate to bridge through communal effort. I imagine that you will begin to realize this if you actually do act on your lofty suggestions.”
LOL. It takes a law degree to come up with creative ways to say “racism”.
Chamblee Dad
February 28th, 2013
5:16 pm
@psdad Really. Talk about making assumptions. Your tone is beyond insulting but since you clearly haven’t met this lawyer, I’ll respond. Get involved in my own school? because you have. I have nothing to hide, I’m a Huntley Hills Elem. Dad & will be at Chamblee Middle next year with my oldest – still 2 younger at Huntley Hills as well. Trust me I’ll be there. If that’s where you are, I’m be proud to serve beside you. Sounds like you are involved Dad, I think that’s great, the more fathers around the better. We had our “Dads on Duty” day last week, many Dads you normally see up at school, but others were new faces. All the better, I read in my PK’s class, love doing that.
How about serving a few years on our School Council, the past 2 as chair, that count? Representing our school at DCPC awhile back. Attend every PTA event I can get to? Check. Participate at work-days at school, Yes. Painted a few murals, a talent I have, but I should do more. Financially support every PTA fundraiser they have, including the Fall Festival as an official sponsor. Gladly. Attend events during school hours like AR celebrations, and Beta Club initiations to name a couple, I’m there, with my wife. Not bragging but you asked – as I’m sure you know at most schools there is a group of parents that are normally the ones people go to when something needs to get done – I’m one. Principal needs a parent at the School Improvement meeting over the summer. Sure. Need a parent to go thru those on-site school inventory things they did awhile back. Yep. Coordinate & contribute a charity effort during holidays for the Title 1 families who could really use clothes & toys at Christmas. Rewarding, wish I could do more.
Attend school board meetings? Remember all the battles Huntley Hills had to engage in more than once to protect our Montessori teaching method? All the red shirts at the Board meetings speaking, I was one. Many, many times – Lewis & Moseley knew us by name. How do you coordinate that? Lots of meetings in the neighborhood & countless discussions & e-mails with fellow parents. Followed by e-mails & phone calls to Board members.
So you want to meet this Chamblee Dad – mystery attorney? Come to Huntley Hills tomorrow morning, & most mornings, about 7:50, I’ll be on the bench with my 3 kids, I walk them to school almost every day. I’ll be in a red Georgia shirt most days – I’m a LawDawg.
I’m a proud Huntley Hills Dad of three, there are more-involved parents than me, they amaze me. But I do what I can, can always do more & better, and strive to. Like I said, I look forward to doing whatever I can to help alongside you at Chamblee Middle. Got to say, at the rising 6th grader meeting I was impressed with the parents who were helping, maybe you were one. We should meet.
bu2
February 28th, 2013
5:23 pm
@psdad
Sure smaller school systems are more flexible. But other districts do succeed in meeting disparate needs. DCSS does a worse job than just about anyone else. That’s a reflection on leadership, not the situation.
And in splitting it up you have to deal with the revenue disparities. I saw one naive comment that Dunwoody would share its wealth. When pigs fly (yes, I really said that). And even if they did, who determines how much gets spent? Is Dunwoody going to accept a different district determining their tax rate? Taxation without representation?
There are ways to allow some autonomy without actually splitting up the system (whether that be charter clusters or giving more authority to supercluster area directors or simply more discretion to principals). And its clear we’ve had a series of superintendents in over their heads.
Chamblee Dad
February 28th, 2013
6:38 pm
@psdad Check your e-mail, you’ve got my work one in your inbox. Not really down with posting it here, d/n have a gmail or similar, so I sent it directly from work.
But still, so much for anonymity, even though I just started posting here recently, I suspect most Huntley Hills parents who read this blog regularly already knew who Chamblee Dad was – philosphy & writing style give me away to some, the others wouldn’t need the school related details, the red Georgia shirt blows my cover.
But I use Chamblee Dad because starting next year I’ll have kids in 2 schools & soon enough 1 each in ES, MS & HS. They sure do grow up fast, but any parent knows that already. I love Chamblee & Huntley Hills in so many ways, the schools obviously, and yes psdad, once a new board is in place in whatever form it ends up, they will be hearing from me. New super. too, we really need a good one.
Edugator
February 28th, 2013
11:18 pm
Looking forward to seeing Chamblee Dad at CMS.
just a mom
March 1st, 2013
8:19 am
@ Brit, yes, the school buildings really are the same type of asset that was transferred to the city when Dunwoody was formed. Those assets included many, many buildings including Brook Run which has a theater, skate park, greenhouse and dormitories, as well as Spruill, which includes a building.
As to whether DCSS will “gift” the school buildings to a Dunwoody system, of course they will not! Neither did Dekalb County “gift” Brook Run to the City of Dunwoody. It was written into the legislation that the County was REQUIRED to sell them to the City at a specific cost spelled out in the legislation.
While no one can be sure how this will all happen in the case of Dunwoody School System, in all likelihood the legislature will follow the same model.
Lyric and Melody Mom
March 1st, 2013
10:36 am
TO Mountain man
What do you think happens when you allow a area next to you to go down? Do you think there is a invisible line that they won’t cross. You have to deal with the issue now before they try to come get a job or break into your house. I am insulted I live in South DeKalb my children go to a South DeKalb school (magnet) and while I do not agree with the school board members I do not want to run to the north side. WE are here WE are educated and WE do care about our kids so stop your hate and come have dinner with my family you will see we care about the same thing just different zip code!
Chamblee Dad
March 1st, 2013
12:12 pm
@edugator Thanks, me with you as well! By Edugator – FL Gator? Not an issue obviously, as if it should be, but always fun to tease, all these past years our principal was big Gator fan, enjoyed teasing, but I was glad we’ve won a couple recently. I’m glad we are the Bulldogs @CMS & CCHS.
Seriously, it seems alot is in place at CMS, & sounds like you are involved. A few of us with rising 6th graders have had someone from CMS regarding the Charter effort, we are more than willing to contribute. I know several Huntley Hills parents already over there heavily involved.
And while I can’t speak for all, I do know many that are in agreement with my perspective, at least for now. Others are clearly expressing interest in possibly joining a Dunwoody &/or Brookhaven system, if it ever happens. My message to them is the same as psdad felt the need to give me, act locally in the local schools. I just add that working for the entire district is not mutually exclusive, you can do both.
Pride and Joy
March 1st, 2013
3:36 pm
Yes! Let htem puolthem pull out but don’t put in the 2005 designation. I support Dunwoody and neighbors hafving their own schools but I want my own too — I don’t want to be penalized by an arbitrary date. So Dunwoody and friends — remove the 2005 caveat and I’ll gladly support you!