Should constitution be amended to allow Dunwoody, Brookhaven, Sandy Springs to create own school districts?
Could we someday have the city of Dunwoody or city of Brookhaven school district? Or city schools of Sandy Springs or Milton?
A resolution in the House would allow voters to decide whether to undo the constitutional prohibition on creating any new school districts in Georgia. .
House Resolution 486 adds this qualifier to the state constitution:
No independent school system shall hereafter be established; provided, however, that any municipality created on or after January 1, 2005, and any municipality which is contiguous to a municipality created on or after January 1, 2005, irrespective of whether such municipalities may be in different counties, may establish individually or collectively by local law an independent school system.
The resolution proposes that this question be put before voters:
Shall the Constitution of Georgia be amended so as to authorize any municipality created on or after January 1, 2005, and any municipality which is contiguous to a municipality created on or after January 1, 2005, irrespective of whether such municipalities may be in different counties, to establish individually or collectively by local law an independent school system
I am unsure why 2005 is the starting point, although it does enable both Sandy Springs and Milton to create school districts as they formed after January of 2005.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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129 comments Add your comment
dekalbite@Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
7:06 pm
I tried to describe how the rise of the administrative positions were first created under Halford, but I guess my comment was caught in the filter. So sorry. It was very detailed.
Sandy Springs Parent
February 27th, 2013
8:07 pm
Some of you just don’t get it smaller school districts are less expensive. The don’t have the administrative bloat. everyone knows each other, you don’t have all he fake free lunch applications, which then gets the Title one money. But with the title one money comes the overhead bloat to administer it. So simple stop the fraud. You don’t need assistant supt., huge HR departments. You outsource payroll to a payroll company. Your bussing cost goes down, kids are walking to school. The County doesn’t own the schools the taxpayers do. The schools are simply transferred from one government agency from another, for a nominal $1.
TM
February 27th, 2013
8:21 pm
@ Chamblee Dad – Thanks for the earlier feedback
@ dekalbite (7:04 post) Great analysis – very insightful and instructive
Concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
8:46 pm
Chamblee Dad
So the culture of entitlement presents itself in a host of ways across DCSS, not just at the central office. I believe that Dekalb’s downfall began with the creation of lots of choice programs, theme schools, magnet schools, etc. Boutique programs and country club type schools that allowed more resources to pour into some communities while most of the system went without. These parents, particularly the high achievers and arts magnet parents and the S. DeKalb theme school parents, are/were a powerful bunch. Superintendents who crossed them had a problem, part of why Brown was run off was because he threatened to shutter the theme schools. The funding that went to these schools was disgraceful, at its high point, given how little neighborhood schools had to work with.
The biggest damage these parents might have done was voting based on a candidate’s blind loyalty to these programs. In fact, Melvin Johnson probably won in part of his support of magnet school transportation. Ty just quoted an Arabia Mt. parent who doesn’t want the board removed. The status quo works well for her and others. A solid portion of Cunningham’s support comes from his support of choice programs.
In many cases, the neighborhood schools that parents opt out of are dreadful, but that is in part because there are no parents demanding change. I don’t think anyone should be trapped in a bad school, look at what our new Super said about his own daughter once she couldn’t get in a theme school, but something has to give. When you take the involved, committed parents out of a school, then no one demands better.
Concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
8:54 pm
TM
I appreciate your comments as well, but the reality in DeKalb is this. Unlike the City of Atlanta were business leaders, civic leaders and others came together to put focus on the schools there, we don’t have true power brokers in DeKalb. (And we can debate how well that worked out in Atlanta.) While I view the DeKalb situation as a Metro Atlanta problem, I am not sure others agree. You can relocate a company to Perimeter Center and not have to worry because your employees can easily live in Fulton or Cobb.
Before Ellis’ problems, I approached him and asked him to take a stand on the challenges DCSS faced. I asked him to use Mayor Reed as a model, to have the same courage to demand change. It was clear that wasn’t going to happen.
While I see some collaboration, it is important to note that none of the African-American DeKalb legislators, who reside in DeKalb and represent mostly DeKalb, has publicly supported the Governor. Some, like Billy Mitchell, have criticized him. (Wonder if Mitchell has look at St. Mountain High’s SAT scores lately where the mean Math score has dropped 40+ points since 2004 and the mean reading score has dropped 45+ points in the same period.)
Forgive me for being discouraged, but this problem has been around for a long time and lots of important and influential folks have turned a blind eye….
just a mom
February 27th, 2013
9:06 pm
Here is what I suspect will happen with the school buildings if Dunwoody is allowed to create its own school system. The schools inside the geographical boundaries of the new system will be transferred (either free or at a nominal cost) to the new system. This is how it worked when the City of Dunwoody was created as well. Most of the county assets within the city limits (Brook Run, Dunwoody Nature Center, Dunwoody Park, Spruill Art Center) were “sold” to the city at a nominal cost. The rationale is that we (Dunwoody residents) paid for them through our taxes. It’s like a divorce. The assets that were accumulated during the marriage are divided up.
Re the racial issues that everyone seems to want to insert into everything on this blog, there are plenty of folks of all races in Dunwoody. A lot of people assume it is all white out here. That is just not the case. Honestly people, it is not that hard to check these kinds of facts. We have by my county 7 public schools in the city limits (I am not counting Hightower, even though that is in our cluster, b/c it sits just outside the city limits and so I assume would not become part of the new system, athough some of the students who go to Hightower live in the city limits and thus would need to be transferred to Dunwoody schools) and all but like two of them are very racially diverse. As in, they are probably among THE MOST DIVERSE SCHOOLS in the entire county. The schools my children attend are all very diverse (along the lines of 40% white, 40% black, 20% other) and we love these schools. Please don’t assume that just b/c we live OTP we are all a bunch of white racists. We have diversity here and that is one of the reasons we choose to live here.
dekalbite@concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
10:31 pm
“So the culture of entitlement presents itself in a host of ways across DCSS, not just at the central office. I believe that Dekalb’s downfall began with the creation of lots of choice programs, theme schools, magnet schools, etc.”
The magnet program was created to escape from the Consent Decree DeKalb was under which dealt with racial integration. They were created as a “choice” to go to an integrated school. By creating highly attractive magnet schools with extremely low pupil teacher ratios and up to date science equipment, foreign language teachers, extra technology, free transportation for all students no matter how far away they were from the school, etc. and holding lotteries choosing 50% African American students and 50% White and Other, DeKalb “attracted” thousands of students to voluntarily integrate. This is the SOLE reason the magnet and special programs were created. The Consent Decree was enormously expensive. This was compounded by the Roger Mills lawsuit which instituted the very expensive “M to M” (Minority to Majority) program and delayed building ANY schools in South DeKalb for over a decade resulting in severe overcrowding in this rapidly growing area.
As DeKalb came off the Consent Decree, the political landscape was changing, and Supreme Court decisions (DeKalb’s coming off the Consent decree was one of the groundbreaking ones – does anyone remember this?) were going the other way.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0503_0467_ZO.html
Magnet and special programs morphed into entitlements for the “lucky” or “well connected” (read Central Office and administrative personnel and their friends and family), and today the average parent of a magnet or special programs’ student has no idea that magnets were created solely to satisfy court challenges coming out of the Civil Rights laws and court decisions.
The magnet programs are wasteful and inefficient in DeKalb mainly because they were created to be stand alone “attractions” to get parents to voluntarily integrate. The purpose they serve today is nothing like the purpose they served when they were created. They were not created to “attract” students who have the same talents and interests (e.g. science, math, performing arts, business, high achievers, etc.). Nor were they established with efficiency and cost effectiveness. They need to be revamped for the purpose they serve today, not the purpose they were established for so many years ago.
TM
February 27th, 2013
10:39 pm
@ Concernedmom
Thanks for your feedback; your concerns are of all valid. I’ll admit to being an eternal optimist
and hope that this “wake-up call” will be a catalyst for major stakeholder engagement. The are significant landholders, business and civic interests in unicorporated DeKalb, who can’t move the land, assets, or interests into the newly formed cities. Hopefully, especially given the speed with which these events began to spiral, they now have new incentives for greater, more consistent involvement.
TM
February 27th, 2013
10:44 pm
There is way too much at stake.
dekalbite@concernedmom30329
February 27th, 2013
11:05 pm
I commented about the history of magnets in DeKalb but it was caught in the filter for some reason.
Chamblee Dad
February 27th, 2013
11:33 pm
@dekalbite @concerned @tm Now THAT’S the type of info. exchange I’m talking about. The history of what went before Lewis (I feel comfortable of my knowledge of last 8 years), that was very enlightening – thanks for taking the time, really, thanks.
2 things as I re-read your posts:
1 – Some people could actually get something from a blog like this if more of the exchange was just that, a coming together, I bet most have something to contribute, a little teasing, snarkiness, jabs can be fun, but some the condescending tones & rants on here – I guess if it makes you good, go ahead. Not singing Kumbaya, but still . . . ideas can be challenged without being mocked.
2- What I read about bad decisions & a culture that goes back even before Lewis, and read more as cold history rather than heated politics of geographic/racial/economic division, tells a tale, at least to me, of something that can be fixed. myself earlier: “with a new board hiring a new super. cleaning house from top to bottom . . .”
Fellow posters feel free to call me naive, dilusional, overly optimist, wasting my time, whatever. I’ve got thick skin = lawyer. But I’m pushing for my own schools & the whole system.
Dekalbite@Chamblee Dad
February 28th, 2013
12:00 am
I posted the history of magnets but that was caught in the filter. I’ll try again.
dekalbite@concernedmom30329
February 28th, 2013
12:07 am
The culture of entitlement presents itself in a host of ways across DCSS, not just at the central office. I believe that Dekalb’s downfall began with the creation of lots of choice programs, theme schools, magnet schools, etc.”
The magnet program was created to escape from the Consent Decree DeKalb was under which dealt with racial integration. They were created as a “choice” to go to an integrated school. By creating highly attractive magnet schools with extremely low pupil teacher ratios and up to date science equipment, foreign language teachers, extra technology, free transportation for all students no matter how far away they were from the school, etc. and holding lotteries choosing 50% African American students and 50% White and Other, DeKalb “attracted” thousands of students to voluntarily integrate. This is the SOLE reason the magnet and special programs were created. The Consent Decree was enormously expensive. This was compounded by the Roger Mills lawsuit which instituted the very expensive “M to M” (Minority to Majority) program and delayed building ANY schools in South DeKalb for over a decade resulting in severe overcrowding in this rapidly growing area.
As DeKalb came off the Consent Decree, the political landscape was changing, and Supreme Court decisions (DeKalb’s coming off the Consent decree was one of the groundbreaking ones – does anyone remember this?) were going the other way.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0503_0467_ZO.html
Magnet and special programs morphed into entitlements for the “lucky” or “well connected” (read Central Office and administrative personnel and their friends and family), and today the average parent of a magnet or special programs’ student has no idea that magnets were created solely to satisfy court challenges coming out of the Civil Rights laws and court decisions.
The magnet programs are wasteful and inefficient in DeKalb mainly because they were created to be stand alone “attractions” to get parents to voluntarily integrate. The purpose they serve today is nothing like the purpose they served when they were created. They were not created to “attract” students who have the same talents and interests (e.g. science, math, performing arts, business, high achievers, etc.). Nor were they established with efficiency and cost effectiveness. They need to be revamped for the purpose they serve today, not the purpose they were established for so many years ago.
Brit
February 28th, 2013
9:49 am
@justamom Public parks and hard assets are not the same thing. Dekalb county is not going to ‘gift’ you buildings that were paid for by a countywide taxation system. Transferring upkeep of parks to a new city is a no brainer for a county, but giving away buildings, equipment and (presumably) staff is never going to happen without one hell of a fight (and a hefty pay out at the front end). There are also all the hidden costs that Dunwoody would have to foot. Janitors, building repairs, upkeep etc. As I said, if you all raised some money and commissioned a proper study into what this would all entail and cost, people ( and the state) would be more inclined to take you seriously. Whining on blogs or hypothesizing on ‘here’s how it will work’ makes you sound like petulant children. You are stamping your foot demanding something without any idea of how to achieve it.
CJae of EAV
February 28th, 2013
12:28 pm
What’s most interesting about this proposed bill is impact it would have on the still lingering questions about how public education is funded in GA. Since most public schools are funded via taxes accessed at the county level, if you begin to allow cities that lie across county lines to combine to form new school districts how is funding to be apportioned? How are capital assets to be divided (i.e. school buildings, equiptment, buses etc.) ??
It would seem to me that the most likely result will be more of the same bad governance behaviors and even bigger governance disputes trying to settle age old questions that in today’s context never met satisfactory resolve. While the idea sounds good in theory, I don’t think it could be practically manifested to the benefit of the children involved. And after all isn’t supposed to be about the children ????
CJae of EAV
February 28th, 2013
12:56 pm
Additionally, hile moving from an district wide accreditation to a model where each institution in the district is responsible for managing it own accreditation may sound good, let’s ask ourselves a basic question, Would such an approach be artificially making a SACS a bigger player than it ideally should be?
While we’re at it, Who decided that SACS was to be the arbiter of what constitutes a well run school from another? Given the proposed, should/would be allow the SACS monopoly to be broken up and bring in alternative accreditation agencies? Who then certifies the accreditation agencies?
PSDad
February 28th, 2013
1:39 pm
@Chamblee Dad… OK, I’ll bite. You are naive, delusional, overly optimist, and wasting your time on this board when you could be down at our local school lending a hand. Have you attended a PTA meeting? How about a DeKalb School Board meeting? Stopped by one of those schools in S. DeKalb to volunteer or just for a visity. I’m curious because I’ve done all of those things, and know most of the attorneys that are active in the middle and elementary schools in the Chamblee “cluster” and I suspect that we haven’t met.
Sure, it’s easy to be generally optimistic about having everyone work toward the same goal, but it won’t work in application because what we have a massive system that is hobbled by its size and can only apply a one size fits all approach to academics because the administrators are so distant from needs of each community. Smaller school systems can address community specific needs (whether socio-economic or cultural) much more effectively than our current system.
I don’t think that you are ready to accept that this system has constituents with needs that are simply to disparate to bridge through communal effort. I imagine that you will begin to realize this if you actually do act on your lofty suggestions. If you actually do decide to act on your vision for improving the school system, please shoot me an email when you’ve set-up that first meeting with the future school board to discuss your plan of action, I’d love to hear the specifics. You can reach me at DCSSDad@gmail.com.
Concernedmom30329
February 28th, 2013
1:40 pm
Brit, Just like with the new cities, I suspect a study will be required to answer all those questions. However, I expect that many communities are ready to pay just about anything to free themselves from dysfunctional school systems.
Also, the parks aren’t really that different from the schools. The parks are also a hard asset, many with rec facilities, tennis courts, etc across N. Fulton and Dunwoody that now “belong” to their respective cities. Given that most of these schools are quite old, a strong argument could be made for depreciation. Not saying something wouldn’t be paid, just saying it might not be as onerous as you think it will be.
Finally, all those hidden costs would be covered by tax revenues. I am fairly confident that a study will show that Dunwoody puts in more revenues than it takes out.
PSDad
February 28th, 2013
1:54 pm
Brit. @ You say public parks and hard assets are not the same thing. As someone who has worked on asset transfers in this type of situation for several clients, I can assure you that the process that the courts use to determine the value of park land isn’t much different than the process used to determine the the value of a building.
Truth in Moderation
February 28th, 2013
3:42 pm
I have a basic question, why are the Noble Northerners in Georgia?
It is obvious to a native that most of the bloggers here are “new”.
It’s always, “Up Naaaaawth, where we are smarter and richer, we really KNOW how to run schools. We don’t NEED private schools, because our publics are the best! And we have no poor African-American minorities to placate. Of course, we got run out of town because the TAXES on those fairyland schools and homes cost waaay more than our Ivy League jobs can now pay for. We can’t even afford a 250 sq. ft. apartment in Manhattan anymore.! Of course we are economically illiterate, because we actually thought WE were paying for our fairyland public schools all those years. We didn’t know it was Wall Street mob money. After all, they wear such nice expensive suits and spend their time talking to all the nice Senators about how they lost all those $BILLIONS, but know that the TAXPAYERS will help them out.
Well, it looks like those ignorant racist redneck yahoos down South still have some CHEAP REALESTATE, and low property taxes. AND I’M SURE THAT THEY ALSO HAVE FAIRYLAND SCHOOLS, JUST LIKE UP NORTH! So I’ll get a cheap mansion AND WON’T HAVE TO PAY MUCH IN TAXES FOR MY FAIRYLAND SCHOOLS. And everyone will be just like me, and think like me, and spend other’s money, just like me. And if not, SURELY, they will recognize my NOBLE NORTHERN heritage, AND FALL IN LINE . NOW you African American Southerners KNOW we are not racists, like your Southern whites. But really, you SOUTH DEKALBITES are obviously inferior and incapable of running OUR schools. Why don’t you just form your own little country down there. Didn’t Abe Lincoln have a program like thet? Seeeeee! Racism is NOT in our noble vocabulary.”
Truth in Moderation
February 28th, 2013
4:16 pm
“I don’t think that you are ready to accept that this system has constituents with needs that are simply to disparate to bridge through communal effort. I imagine that you will begin to realize this if you actually do act on your lofty suggestions.”
LOL. It takes a law degree to come up with creative ways to say “racism”.
Chamblee Dad
February 28th, 2013
5:16 pm
@psdad Really. Talk about making assumptions. Your tone is beyond insulting but since you clearly haven’t met this lawyer, I’ll respond. Get involved in my own school? because you have. I have nothing to hide, I’m a Huntley Hills Elem. Dad & will be at Chamblee Middle next year with my oldest – still 2 younger at Huntley Hills as well. Trust me I’ll be there. If that’s where you are, I’m be proud to serve beside you. Sounds like you are involved Dad, I think that’s great, the more fathers around the better. We had our “Dads on Duty” day last week, many Dads you normally see up at school, but others were new faces. All the better, I read in my PK’s class, love doing that.
How about serving a few years on our School Council, the past 2 as chair, that count? Representing our school at DCPC awhile back. Attend every PTA event I can get to? Check. Participate at work-days at school, Yes. Painted a few murals, a talent I have, but I should do more. Financially support every PTA fundraiser they have, including the Fall Festival as an official sponsor. Gladly. Attend events during school hours like AR celebrations, and Beta Club initiations to name a couple, I’m there, with my wife. Not bragging but you asked – as I’m sure you know at most schools there is a group of parents that are normally the ones people go to when something needs to get done – I’m one. Principal needs a parent at the School Improvement meeting over the summer. Sure. Need a parent to go thru those on-site school inventory things they did awhile back. Yep. Coordinate & contribute a charity effort during holidays for the Title 1 families who could really use clothes & toys at Christmas. Rewarding, wish I could do more.
Attend school board meetings? Remember all the battles Huntley Hills had to engage in more than once to protect our Montessori teaching method? All the red shirts at the Board meetings speaking, I was one. Many, many times – Lewis & Moseley knew us by name. How do you coordinate that? Lots of meetings in the neighborhood & countless discussions & e-mails with fellow parents. Followed by e-mails & phone calls to Board members.
So you want to meet this Chamblee Dad – mystery attorney? Come to Huntley Hills tomorrow morning, & most mornings, about 7:50, I’ll be on the bench with my 3 kids, I walk them to school almost every day. I’ll be in a red Georgia shirt most days – I’m a LawDawg.
I’m a proud Huntley Hills Dad of three, there are more-involved parents than me, they amaze me. But I do what I can, can always do more & better, and strive to. Like I said, I look forward to doing whatever I can to help alongside you at Chamblee Middle. Got to say, at the rising 6th grader meeting I was impressed with the parents who were helping, maybe you were one. We should meet.
bu2
February 28th, 2013
5:23 pm
@psdad
Sure smaller school systems are more flexible. But other districts do succeed in meeting disparate needs. DCSS does a worse job than just about anyone else. That’s a reflection on leadership, not the situation.
And in splitting it up you have to deal with the revenue disparities. I saw one naive comment that Dunwoody would share its wealth. When pigs fly (yes, I really said that). And even if they did, who determines how much gets spent? Is Dunwoody going to accept a different district determining their tax rate? Taxation without representation?
There are ways to allow some autonomy without actually splitting up the system (whether that be charter clusters or giving more authority to supercluster area directors or simply more discretion to principals). And its clear we’ve had a series of superintendents in over their heads.
Chamblee Dad
February 28th, 2013
6:38 pm
@psdad Check your e-mail, you’ve got my work one in your inbox. Not really down with posting it here, d/n have a gmail or similar, so I sent it directly from work.
But still, so much for anonymity, even though I just started posting here recently, I suspect most Huntley Hills parents who read this blog regularly already knew who Chamblee Dad was – philosphy & writing style give me away to some, the others wouldn’t need the school related details, the red Georgia shirt blows my cover.
But I use Chamblee Dad because starting next year I’ll have kids in 2 schools & soon enough 1 each in ES, MS & HS. They sure do grow up fast, but any parent knows that already. I love Chamblee & Huntley Hills in so many ways, the schools obviously, and yes psdad, once a new board is in place in whatever form it ends up, they will be hearing from me. New super. too, we really need a good one.
Edugator
February 28th, 2013
11:18 pm
Looking forward to seeing Chamblee Dad at CMS.
just a mom
March 1st, 2013
8:19 am
@ Brit, yes, the school buildings really are the same type of asset that was transferred to the city when Dunwoody was formed. Those assets included many, many buildings including Brook Run which has a theater, skate park, greenhouse and dormitories, as well as Spruill, which includes a building.
As to whether DCSS will “gift” the school buildings to a Dunwoody system, of course they will not! Neither did Dekalb County “gift” Brook Run to the City of Dunwoody. It was written into the legislation that the County was REQUIRED to sell them to the City at a specific cost spelled out in the legislation.
While no one can be sure how this will all happen in the case of Dunwoody School System, in all likelihood the legislature will follow the same model.
Lyric and Melody Mom
March 1st, 2013
10:36 am
TO Mountain man
What do you think happens when you allow a area next to you to go down? Do you think there is a invisible line that they won’t cross. You have to deal with the issue now before they try to come get a job or break into your house. I am insulted I live in South DeKalb my children go to a South DeKalb school (magnet) and while I do not agree with the school board members I do not want to run to the north side. WE are here WE are educated and WE do care about our kids so stop your hate and come have dinner with my family you will see we care about the same thing just different zip code!
Chamblee Dad
March 1st, 2013
12:12 pm
@edugator Thanks, me with you as well! By Edugator – FL Gator? Not an issue obviously, as if it should be, but always fun to tease, all these past years our principal was big Gator fan, enjoyed teasing, but I was glad we’ve won a couple recently. I’m glad we are the Bulldogs @CMS & CCHS.
Seriously, it seems alot is in place at CMS, & sounds like you are involved. A few of us with rising 6th graders have had someone from CMS regarding the Charter effort, we are more than willing to contribute. I know several Huntley Hills parents already over there heavily involved.
And while I can’t speak for all, I do know many that are in agreement with my perspective, at least for now. Others are clearly expressing interest in possibly joining a Dunwoody &/or Brookhaven system, if it ever happens. My message to them is the same as psdad felt the need to give me, act locally in the local schools. I just add that working for the entire district is not mutually exclusive, you can do both.
Pride and Joy
March 1st, 2013
3:36 pm
Yes! Let htem puolthem pull out but don’t put in the 2005 designation. I support Dunwoody and neighbors hafving their own schools but I want my own too — I don’t want to be penalized by an arbitrary date. So Dunwoody and friends — remove the 2005 caveat and I’ll gladly support you!