Any suggestions for new DeKalb school board? Should Georgia consider appointed boards?
Let’s suggest some folks who might be possible school board candidates in DeKalb now that the state Board of Education has recommended the ouster of six veteran members. I expect the governor to move quickly on approving that recommendation and naming the replacements.
I also wonder if Nathan Deal would reappoint any of the vanquished board members, including those who have only served two years at this point. He apparently has that prerogative.
Any names come to mind?
In the meantime, here is an interesting suggestion from retired educator John Davis that Georgia move to appointed school boards. Typically, the mayor appoints the boards. (Here’s a list of places with appointed boards.)
By John Davis
During 40 plus years in education, I have had the opportunity to work in a variety of school organizations. One of the most noteworthy
was where the mayor appointed the five-member school board.Each member
had some business background or educational experience. Nonereceived a salary, secretarial assistance or expense accounts.They were responsible for hiring a superintendent and developing and following school policy. If the public did not like the way the schools were being handled, they needed to look no further than the mayor’s office. It was a very efficient and effective operation.
It has been my experience that school systems experiencing organizational/leadership problems usually have dysfunctional school boards. When examining the causes of dysfunction, several factors seem to repeatedly occur.
The first problem is the size of school boards. When boards exceed seven members, it becomes more difficult to reach consensus and more likely members will fragment into political/district diversions. In other words, members focus more on the local district they represent rather than on what is best for the entire school system.
The second problem is offering salaries and benefits to elected school board members. This tempts some individuals to seek the elected position to bring in some extra money and, in some cases, their entire income, even though they have little or no understanding of multi-million-dollar budgets and how to make complicated business decisions. There is also the problem of individuals running for elected positions with ulterior motives that are narrowly focused and counterproductive to serving as a team player.
The third problem is the way school board members are elected. School board elections take place at the same time as county, state and/or federal elections. This places the school board nominees’ names toward the end of the ballot. Most board members do not seek or cannot afford large campaign organizations; thus, the public has very little exposure to the background or experience of those seeking a board position.
By the time most voters get to the school board portion of the ballot, they select a name that either sounds familiar or just make a wild guess. Unless the media has gotten involved with school board coverage, the general public is left pretty much in the dark about qualifications.
What I liked about the school system where the mayor
appointed the school board was that it was important for the mayor, an elected official, to appoint highly qualified individuals and then make surea highly qualified superintendent would be hired who could work with the board and the community.The dysfunctional DeKalb County Board of Education offers a golden opportunity for the state Board of Education and the governor to address organizational/structural problems that exist in many school districts. Instead of replacing board members with another group of nine individuals representing nine mini school districts, think outside the box and select representatives whose interests reflect the greater district needs.
While the DeKalb board will shrink to seven members next year as a result of state legislation, consider a five-member board. Instead of another election for the members, have the board composed
of one representative from the DeKalb Chamber of Commerce, one from the DeKalb PTA, one from the Organization of DeKalb Educators, onefrom among retired educators and one at-large member.Of course, there are numerous combinations of groups that could represent the DeKalb County schools, and this is offered as one example.
My plea is to address the root problem, which is the current organizational structure of selecting school board members. Let us be honest: Any change to the structure cannot be any worse than what we now have.
–from Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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202 comments Add your comment
Smoke Rise Mom
February 22nd, 2013
10:57 am
I would like to see at least one really good retired teacher who taught their entire career in DeKalb appointed to the board.
Peter Smagorinsky
February 22nd, 2013
10:57 am
oops, make that ousted, though outsted is a pretty good word.
Dr. John Trotter
February 22nd, 2013
10:59 am
@ Comment: I would love to have you do a commentary on what I have actually written instead of engaging in immature ad hominem attacks. No doctorate in theology (yet). Ha. No just two — one in education (UGA) and one in law (Mercer). How about you? I am thinking about earning the third one in History. You ought to do the same. Learning is actually fun. It even helps you blog cogently and accurately. Ha!
Stn Mtn/Lithonia Mom
February 22nd, 2013
11:02 am
It is sad that all the discussion hear is about race and very little about the students of Dekalb county. If that has been your comments, shame on you. You are just as bad if not worse than the Board because you are parents and grandparents.
NEWS FLASH*** Corruption comes in ALL races and ALL political parties. So get off of ALL the high horses and start focusing on the needs of OUR kids.
The Board should be representive of the ALL Dekalb County so ALL of the issues can be addressed. We need to get our fiscal house in order so that teachers can be compensated and provided with the tools needed to ensure OUR students are successful. Parents need to get involved and stop complaining. My kids graduated last year but I care about the interest of all of OUR students. I fully intended to be a fixture at the Board meetings going forward. It will take a village to support the new Board and not the tribes represented on this blog.
Private Citizen
February 22nd, 2013
11:04 am
The whole concept of giving home-spun yokels executive power over a complex professional organization is just crazy. The net result is power-plays instead of skilled management, because they don’t know any better. It is a serious distraction to the professional workers, this Martian Management Spaceship parked over on the side and their plentiful invent-the-wheel ideas that they then actually require people to act on. Another result I have seen is plentiful harassment of teachers, as if the middle brows and their friends they hire simply can not understand of relate to a higher mind, and that is what real teachers are, and the work they do.
Using an international comparison, I doubt there is any other country in the world with this weird system, where the uneducated tell the educated what to do. The power structure is also an attractor for individuals with a personal agenda who get questionable credentialing, i.e. quickly “earned” distance learning professional degrees, for the sole reason to have a prop to satisfy that rung and their climb to power. The term “disconnect” is often used in education-speak. There is a pretty serious disconnect going on between the management crowd and their aims and methods, and serious professional teachers and there aims and methods.
It is no small thing that the managers who get the quickly “earned” distance learning degrees then receive a double paycheck to what the teachers are paid. The credentialing of that lady appointed to be director of the state charter system, in other words, having a master’s and doctorate .phd from UGA (or from another serious brick-and-mortar university and writing a dissertation) is not the type credentialing going on in most school houses and school districts, and in fact, those with the quick-credentials will attack and discredit people with degrees from substantial schools and rationalise this harassment that only “elite” people go to real programs. There has been a wide-open door for this type of financial exploit and it really amounts to gang activity, as the management caste networks together like glue, speaks the same language, and practice a professional agenda that tends to be rather petty and shallow to any sophisticated person who must endure them, if they are even that lucky.
The strategy to get rid of someone through harassment is to make as many complaints in their work file as possible, to be harsh in work reviews and essentially try to wreck their health through stress. I have seen this again and again, harassment toward excellent high-quality individuals. I’ve had a friend as me to refer them to a doctor because they were having so many intestinal problems. This person had not one, but two masters degrees from real schools. I know a man who “fell out” during his work day and had to be carried out on a stretcher to an ambulance, just because of the amount of negative energy and stress from Georgia screw-ball managers in the school house. The same person is now a principal in a very wealthy district in another state. But in Georgia they were heavily harassed. There is a lot of this. I know a lady who was so good at what she did that she helped write the “standards” in another state, but as a teacher in Georgia, minding her own business and teaching her classes, she was picked out and harassed by these type managers who insist to harass and grind people down to their own level.
jarvis
February 22nd, 2013
11:05 am
Crying shame:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/big_penders_at_teach_union_nqPRUrH7Qbe15RSAXzMRyN
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
February 22nd, 2013
11:05 am
@Dr. John I see Gene Walker as more of a Junkyard Dog type, less Dusty Rhodes.
Also, I think Stephanie Stuckey Benfield would be a good appointment. She is smart, graceful, knows the law and represented central Dekalb honorably in her time in the Legislature. I doubt she’d be interested in getting involved in this mess, though.
Concerned DeKalb Mom
February 22nd, 2013
11:06 am
Dear Jarvis,
There are NO teachers’ unions in Georgia.
Dr. Monica Henson
February 22nd, 2013
11:06 am
I work with a Board of Directors (state-chartered special school) that was formed by a founding group and now nominates and selects new Directors themselves. We have several areas of expertise represented within our Board, including a retired district public school educator/nonprofit director, an attorney, a technical college administrator, a physician, and an entrepreneur with a background in mathematics, risk analysis, and decision theory. They understand very clearly the distinction between governance and execution, and it is a pleasure to work with such a group of people.
There is not enough gold in Fort Knox to get me to go to work for a locally elected board of education. I’ve worked in both the charter and district worlds my entire career, and the difference between working for my board of directors versus elected BOEs is stunning.
The question is, if local BOEs were appointed, who would do the appointing? Local politics is the underlying systemic problem that has led to fiascos like DeKalb is experiencing.
d
February 22nd, 2013
11:09 am
I don’t believe that it is going to happen anyway. Even if Governor Deal appoints a new board by Thursday, I think the current board will be given their injunction and this entire conversation will be moot.
Disgusted in Dekalb
February 22nd, 2013
11:09 am
Claudia Stucke would fit Smoke Rise Mom’s category. Would you do it, Claudia?
bbb1357
February 22nd, 2013
11:11 am
Peter: I suspect you are right. Besides, most of the really smart people in Dekalb County have raised themselves up to the point financially whereby they can leave the horrible public school system behind and send their kids to one of the handful of really fine old established private schools in the area (not the spate of marginal quality little start-up religious schools opening up all over the place in the past 20-30 years, or those started in the 60’s in response to desegregation, but those who had been around long before.)
Local Boy
February 22nd, 2013
11:11 am
If we base it on race look at the Census numbers 2011 for Dekalb
White persons, percent, 2011 (a) 37.8%
Black persons, percent, 2011 (a) 54.4%
American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2011 (a) 0.6%
Asian persons, percent, 2011 (a) 5.2%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander persons, percent, 2011 (a) 0.1%
Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2011 2.0%
Persons of Hispanic or Latino Origin, percent, 2011 (b) 9.8%
White persons not Hispanic, percent, 2011 30.1%
gsmith
February 22nd, 2013
11:13 am
i would like to see different schools for home owners and renters. let the people who pay the property taxes and the majority of the taxes in the county have their own schools
alm
February 22nd, 2013
11:15 am
I agree that Kim Gokce is a great pick.
I would also add Ernest Brown and Dunwoody Mom.
John king
February 22nd, 2013
11:17 am
Dr. John is a bully.
VIETNAMVET
February 22nd, 2013
11:17 am
It is not the method that might be the problem; it’s the people. Sometimes the wrong people are appointed to positions.
Private Citizen
February 22nd, 2013
11:18 am
If you want to get the job done, place or “appoint” the talent required. I do not recall any military generals getting “elected.”
VIETNAMVET
February 22nd, 2013
11:19 am
@gs. RENTERS PAY TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bbb1357
February 22nd, 2013
11:22 am
vietnamvet: Can you show me the county/school property tax bill for your rented apartment/house/condo? Schools are funded via local property taxes, which are paid by property owners, not renters.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
February 22nd, 2013
11:23 am
“most of the really smart people in Dekalb County have raised themselves up to the point financially whereby they can leave the horrible public school system ”
@BBB & @Peter S. – so your comments for today are to A) complain about the commenters here insulting one another and then B) basically insult everyone who has commented?
Is that about right?
DeKalb County Grad
February 22nd, 2013
11:24 am
Cheryl Seavey Murphy – Oak Grove/Lakeside. Cheryl was raised in DeKalb, attended Emory, raised two children and served on PTA boards as President. She is hard-working, honest, ethical and works to develop collaborative and practical decisions. I believe the Governor would do well to choose someone with a strong civic background, teaching history, financial management qualifications and IT knowledge to help lead the new school board. I hope the dimissed six will resign without dragging us and our tax dollars through the courts. Be gracious.
southgaadmin
February 22nd, 2013
11:25 am
With the amount of money school boards work with these days just anybody does not need to be in this powerful group. There is just too much at stake. Someone who cannot manage their own bank account does not need to serve. Although I know people who did not graduate from high school or college and have done well, at least a high school diploma would be nice as a qualification as well. Appointed or elected – leave the “power surge mentality” behind and serve the students, faculty/staff and tax payers of the system.
DeKalb Inside Out
February 22nd, 2013
11:28 am
Dr Henson,
If your Board of Directors, state-chartered special school, was infiltrated by “evil doers” … how would you root the evil doers out if they block nominated/voted and had a majority?
d
Don’t be so sure that rule of law will prevail. Judge Lee denied the RO on a technicality. She may hunt down another technicality or reinterpret something and strike down the injunction next Thursday.
Most of us agree with the outcome of the hearing. The prosecutor, judge and jury knew how this was going to end before the hearing began. It was a kangaroo court. Do the ends justify the means? Perhaps the same will be true for Judge Lee’s decision on Thursday.
Private Citizen
February 22nd, 2013
11:28 am
Scenario A: Elected school board made up of local business executives and people of real accomplishment is civic and business operation, know what is efficiency, balance sheet, how to get things done, friendly, productive, humane.
Scenario B: Elected school board made up of populist individuals who know how to repeatedly give good speeches and use lots of emotional-response seeking phrases, however do not have significant business experience and result in networking with family members to receive salary, and result in massive mismanagement of resources.
_________________
For some reason, the pendulum has seemed to have swung to Scenario B.
_________________
Anyone who keeps talking about school management and “race” must have an agenda to see school system as a jobs program for adults, and is willing to sell out the functioning of the schools for the priority of maybe 100 people having dubious jobs paying $100k per year, or overpaying central office staff, secretaries, etc. Point is, a charity system for a small number of adults, 100-200 people total? that ends up wrecking the economy of an entire metropolitan area.
_________________________
It would be nice to break up the prevailing education-establishment with their expensive externalities (costs to other people) amateur-hour antics, and have education management that could actually comprehend running schools in the manner of UPS, FedEx, or Google, treating workers in a humane manner with sensible limited duties, and having real momentum for accomplishment and applied modern systems.
Inman Parker
February 22nd, 2013
11:30 am
To those DeKalb school board members seeking to save their jobs in court: For the love of God, just GO!
Insider
February 22nd, 2013
11:32 am
bbb1357: “Can you show me the county/school property tax bill for your rented apartment/house/condo? Schools are funded via local property taxes, which are paid by property owners, not renters.”
Go look up any apartment complex on the Tax Asssessor’s web site, and see how much in property taxes the owner of the complex pays. That figure is passed on to the renter as part of their rent.
Pardon My Blog
February 22nd, 2013
11:34 am
Three names I really like that have been mentioned: Brad Bryant, Denise Majette and Cheryl Murphy. @South DeKalb – Vernon Jones is half the problem with where the county is today (although you may be Mr. Jones himself) and would be more of the same and NOT a good pick.
And for all of you claiming racism, sorry but that ship has sailed. The issue is doing what is right by the students of DeKalb with the most competent leaders that we can get.
J Throckmorton Malcontent
February 22nd, 2013
11:35 am
I nominate Jimmy Carter, Hosea Williams, Manuel Maloof, Cathy Woolard, Abdullah the Butcher, and Too $hort.
Pardon My Blog
February 22nd, 2013
11:36 am
BTW, I applaud Jester for taking the high road at the meeting yesterday and I do think the State should consider her as well. Don’t know enough about Speaks except that she has tried to do the right thing in the past on some issues which angered the “Black Mafia”.
sad for kids bad biz
February 22nd, 2013
11:37 am
Why don’t we let the appointments take place. If Walker and Co wants to fight this let them. Sometimes people just don’t when it is time to say I screwed up and after years I decide to fix it now but it is too late. I really feel that if elections were held again, none of them would be re- elected anyway. The incompetence of these people is just embarrassing to all Dekalb Co children and parents. 2,000 votes to get elected doesn’t even make up 5% of people of the county, but rest assured they will come out in droves to see none of these people return to the board. Have some pride and diginity and I did my best but it wasn’t good enough. There are other things in life you can do to help DeKalb, but taking care of DeKalb kids on the School Board isn’t one of them!!! Race is not the issue, Human comptence to leave personal agendas and politics and handle a budget that focuses on the students.
Burroughston Broch
February 22nd, 2013
11:38 am
@ Smoke Rise Mom
One potential problem is whether such a teacher would truly independent of the DCSS central office and bureaucracy. For example, if DCSS could negatively affect the teacher’s pension, would the teacher be truly independent?
SR
February 22nd, 2013
11:39 am
Growing up in Atlanta, Dekalb County Schools had one of the strongest school systems in the state in the sixties and early seventies, and scores on tests often exceeded the best private schools. This clearly is not the case.
Appointed boards would be a good thing, especially if the appointed board was selected based on a variety of applicable business, educational and management skills. Time for these positions should be limited, as these positions could be seen as a privalege to serve, not an opportunity to gain, and there is the likelyhood that term limited effective Board members would perform well. But structural changes are absolutely necessary as part of the changes to eliminate nepotism and reward programs. I was stunned to review how many of the board member’s have family members getting lucractive salaries from Dekalb County as well.
Sadly local election allows anyone to run. When Clayton County went through similar problems, the BOE members were exposed, and sadly most of the members were there to milk the system for all they could. But the worse part was that many of the BOE members in Clayton as well as Dekalb aren’t particularly educated. How can elected BOE effectively run a school system when the members are there looking for their hand out, and lack competent skills to effectively have a vision and direction.
The New School Superintendent seems as incompetent and self-serving as the current Dekalb BOE members. For Dekalb to make a recovery, The Governor should have the right to get rid of the whole lot – Superintendent and BOE, for as long as there are individuals who are there clinging to old wounds and mindsets, there is no real way for the school system to flourish. Corruption will contine in the same patterns until new guidelines can be put in place, and that a management team can be brought in, without personal grievances, to guide Dekalb County Schools to succes.
The teacher’s unions are an additional problem holding back the educational system. it seems that too often Union Leader members are interviewed, and they have difficulty putting a sentence together. How can they possibly be good for educating youth, when they lack necessary educational skills.
Quota
February 22nd, 2013
11:41 am
Is Trotter ok?
It seems his grasp on reality is slipping. Meds ok?
Nothing he has said would move the county toward a solution.
Pardon My Blog
February 22nd, 2013
11:43 am
On the subject of appointed Boards, don’t think that would work especially in the metro area.
Ray
February 22nd, 2013
11:43 am
If you really want board members to dig in and solve the problems in DCSS, then you need to pay them MORE — a lot more — and not less. DCSS school board members make a paltry $18,000 per year, for a job, if done right, is easily more than a full time job, which means we basically pay them a little above minimum wage. And for that minimum wage job they are subjected to regular public criticism, much of which is frequently uniformed or misinformed, and we lambaste them and skewer them regularly in the media. And, particularly for urban school districts like DeKalb, when you boil it all down the real core problem is that a large percenatge of the students come from homes with weak and uninvolved parents that don’t care much about education — a problem which no board member can really fix. So why would anyone subject themselves to this very difficult job, with ridiculously low pay, and regular public abuse? It’s a wonder that we get some of the good, caring, and competent board members — which DO exist in DeKalb and APS (if you say they don’t, then you are uninformed). If we paid board members what a top quality manager of a hundreds of millions of dollars and thousands of employees enterprise should make, which is many times more than $18,000 per year, then we might attract more good people into taking on this crazy, thankless job.
Barkus
February 22nd, 2013
11:44 am
“vietnamvet: Can you show me the county/school property tax bill for your rented apartment/house/condo? Schools are funded via local property taxes, which are paid by property owners, not renters.”
Someone owns those rental properties and they are indeed paying property taxes. AND they are paying a higher rate as they do not enjoy a homestead exemption on their rental porperty. That expense is passed through to the renter, BTW.
Burroughston Broch
February 22nd, 2013
11:44 am
@ Pardon My Blog
Denise Majette?
Why should DCSS be a haven for out-of-office Democratic politicians? Michael Thurmond, Thurbert Baker, and now Denise Majette?
Private Citizen
February 22nd, 2013
11:45 am
Main Suggestion – Only One:
Make history and begin to build a management culture made of people and mindset from the real modern world of business and accomplishment. I’m not a fanboi of the “Khan Academy” per se, but if you look at the staff, you will see a collective of modern technology-literate persons who have nothing in common with the culture of education bureaucrat in Georgia. Attributes include: world travel / work perspective, education from known top tier universities as a basic component of life, and I am guessing, moderate and sensible salary structure, and job titles and description where they’re each actually doing things, not “ruling over people.”
________________
I still think at the very least, that the Ying Yang Twins of College Park, Georgia, should be on the board of directors of a performing arts school. They’re very talented.
Bernie
February 22nd, 2013
11:45 am
The very first duty of responsibilty of this New Board should be is to re-negotiate the current pay package of Mr.Thurmond to save money. Then start an agreesive search in finding a competent,experienced and qualifed Superintendent ASAP! This may even cause to replace Mr. Thurmond with at least a more qualified interm Superintendent. Mr. Thurmonds inexperence all though well intentioned motives are not enough at this time of crisis with the management of the school system. Someone internally who is more familiar with the shortcomings and inner workings would be far better than Mr. Thurmond on his BEST DAY!
Eugene Walker Must Go
February 22nd, 2013
11:47 am
Appointed Boards is a terrible, terrible idea. The decision to to recommend replacing 6 members of the Board is a terrible, terrible idea. The Board is held accountable to voters who can choose to recall them. An appointed Board is accountable to only those who appoint them. Let the democratic process work and just say NO to this abomination of a decision by unelected bureaucrats.
d
February 22nd, 2013
11:47 am
I’m not saying that I disagree with what happened yesterday, but from what I read about the judge’s decision to throw out the suit on Wednesday, she hinted that she agreed about the Constitutional issue.
I am really on the fence about business people as board members. I fully agree businesses need to be part of the educational process. They need to provide feedback on what they need from curriculum so that the students coming out of the schools are prepared to work and be a productive part of the community that they are in. That being said, the job of a board of education is to set policy. I am not sure businessmen and women are the best to set policy for the craziness that is public education in the United States.
Private Citizen
February 22nd, 2013
11:48 am
Pardon My Blog, Why would it not work? Is the metro area a bunch of spoiled sissies? It works just fine in Shenzhen, China, where your mobile computer phone is made. And in Shenzhen, if someone sued the school system, they’d probably send the police over to beat you up. They don’t take an crap from anyone there, it is designated “high performance” zone.
d
February 22nd, 2013
11:50 am
On a slightly different topic, I would love to see Joshua Starr (from Montgomery County, MD) come in and be our superintendent. Any educational leader that sees how we overtest our students has my vote.
Dr. John Trotter
February 22nd, 2013
11:51 am
I suggest Dick Steinborn (”Go, Dickie, Go!”), Bruno Sammartino, Ole Anderson, The Rock, Rick Flair, Wahoo McDaniel, Dory Funk, Ernie “Big Cat” Ladd, Ox Baker, Virgil Riley Runnels, Jr. (aka Dusty Rhodes), Bob Armstrong, Dick Slater, Buddy Colt, Argentina Apollo, El Mongol, Jody Hamilton, Mr. Wrestling Number 2, The Medics (both of them), Big Bill Dromo, Rowdy Roddy Piper, and last not least, Ray Candy.
maurice
February 22nd, 2013
11:51 am
how about bill campbell? I heard he needs a job and wants to move back to atlanta. but, he’ll want big money.
The Hammer
February 22nd, 2013
11:51 am
Why do we never seriously consider abolishing publicly funded education?
We don’t have publicly funded grocery stores, yet 98% of people (including the most impoverished) get plenty to eat (just look at them).
Why do we have publicly funded schools? Is it because private schools will teach children to think and believe differently than the homogenized people the public schools create today?
guido
February 22nd, 2013
11:52 am
we hear how much the ‘Super’ is payed w/ benefits.
I have not seen what board members earn.
Must be alot (including side benefits) if they are fighting so hard to keep their board position?
Private Citizen
February 22nd, 2013
11:55 am
Courthouse “hearing,” College Park version. 4 minutes, 33 seconds, not 14 hours. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8uBc18jOU8
DeKalb Inside Out
February 22nd, 2013
11:57 am
Excellent recommendations! Questions
1. Why haven’t any of them run for a board of education seat?
2. What makes any of these people different than our previous board members?
Walker – State Senator, PhD History from Duke, Teacher for 15 years
Womack – Bachelors from UGA, VP of Trailways, President of Georgia Courier, VP of First Financial Group (Fortune 400)
Bowen – BS Accounting, Attorney and CPA, Director of U.S. Transaction with Hewlett Packard, JD from Georgia State University, College of Law
Redovian – BA degree in Finance from Ohio University, President and Owner of Atlantic Southern Products
McChesney – BA History, Masters in Education, Teacher for 34 years
Jester – BS Economics, Actuary
Edler – MS Business, BS Accounting, CPA
Cunningham – High school education – man of the people
Woods – High school education – woman of the people