The task facing Michael Thurmond: Save the system from taking a nose dive

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
5:26 am

Let’s analyze shall we?

“Stop taking everything anonymous bloggers post as the truth. If their opinion has merit, they would be willing to put their real names behind their statements.”

@David let’s look at the logical implications of your statement. (You’ll probably wish you had after reading the following, once you realize how foolish your statement looks when you see its implications)

Bloggers, looking to use the power of the Internet come to Get Schooled and say APS should be investigated for erasures. But a “real name” Kathy Augustine says, “We see no need to investigate; we expect outliers every year.”

So David would claim that Kathy Augustine’s opinion on whether or not APS should be investigated, has more merit, because she attached her real name?

Seriously David?

The bloggers who came to Get Schooled and implored the governor to get involved had less merit that the Blue Ribbon ~~Whitewash~~ ~~Committee because they used their name?~~

Seriously David?

Lachandra Butler-Burks who hid evidence of cheating has “more merit” because she attached her name to the Blue Ribbon Commission report, than those bloggers who opined that it was a cover up?

Seriously David?

Sounds more like a way to dodge legitimate criticisms of your own organization. Rather than state them, I quote someone by name Dr. John Trotter, who says you have an inherent conflict of interest in trying to represent teachers and administrators.

By your own admission you represent administrators who were promoted, not on merit, but on “arbitrary and capricious” criteria. Yet when they act in arbitrary and capricious manners toward teachers, who feel the need to exercise their legal rights for self-protection, you at the same time have to represent the best interests of these “arbitrary and capricious” administrators.

How is this not an inherent conflict of interest? And does this conflict limit what you are willing to say on behalf of teachers and students?

Peter Smagorinsky

February 15th, 2013
5:43 am

I’m with David. Sign your name so that you are accountable for your opinions, instead of hiding behind a fake name.

Ms. Fraud, Beverly Hall is out of office. The AJC’s investigation is among the reasons she’s gone. You won. No need to keep posting, regardles of the content of an essay, on what she did several years ago. She was terrible, and an embarrassment to APS. We get it. Today’s essay is about Dekalb, not APS. Many of us are interested in other districts, other issues, other kids and teachers. You might take note that we find it tiresome to have Beverly Hall raised on a daily basis, regardless of an essay’s content. Can we move on?

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
5:45 am

Let’s analyze further

One issue that is out of the control of anyone in DeKalb is the TKES evaluation system for teachers. The sooner the Georgia Department of Education realizes it is impractical and unworkable, the sooner administrators and teachers can concentrate on delivering quality instruction instead of spending so much time on window dressings such as posting the standards. Is a kindergarten student or first grade student capable of reading them? How is the time spent on this improving instruction? And the evaluations are far too time consuming.

Don’t need a name attached to recognize the validity of this statement. The instrument actually allows teachers to be downgraded for reminding a students to stay on task! (Yes people it sounds completely stupid but really, really does do that-read the evaluation rubric) But has GAE taken an unequivocal stand? (I don’t know, maybe they have)

concernedmom30329

February 15th, 2013
5:47 am

This is a good essay, similar to one that ran yesterday.

http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2013/02/14/some-excellent-advice-for-michael-thurmond-make-classroom-priority/

Dr. Walker’s attitude is a big reason that DCSS cannot move forward. Getting rid of Paul Womack was a big step (though his replacement has been a bit of a disappointment) and Walker needs to go as well. His believe that everything is OK and will be OK is part of the reason we have so much poor decision making.

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
6:02 am

ah, David…?

I would be happy to give my name except for one thing. I KNOW what happens to the politically unprotected who speak out.

I’m not willing to destroy my career to pander to you. I’ve seen what happens when someone tries to confront the system up front without patronage. the system locks in on the critic and works to destroy them and their credibility through harassment, slander, and punishing anyone who supports them.

at GPC I watched the blood sport which ran rampant under the last administration aimed at people who dared speak out. lives and careers destroyed.

until there is a legitimate voice for the unprotected and unconnected, masks are all we have.

Silence Dogood was good enough for Ben Franklin. Bootney Farnsworth is good enough for me.

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
6:06 am

@ Pete and David

how many times in the recent past have you seen somebody from the custodial staff or the switchboard operation, or the office manager challenge someone at your level and survive it?

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
6:07 am

BTW: you may not be bothered by his lack of experience in education. I am.

gdfo

February 15th, 2013
6:52 am

Non sequitar. No matter what name a poster uses that does not mean that they are incorrect. There are alot of folks on this site who only post knee-jerk emotional posts. Using a name to protect your privacy does not equate with bad or no ability to THINK.

My concern is that Mr Thurmond, no matter how high his hopes, is not qualified for this position. This is one of the top positions and in a troubled School system.

I still think the entire Board must be replaced and then the system cleaned up.

agent

February 15th, 2013
6:59 am

Didn’t Thurmond say he thinks the board should stay put? If so, then there’s your answer on whether or not anything good will happen. Stupid people.

clem

February 15th, 2013
7:27 am

inch by inch it’s a cinch; this struggle has to be incremental: kids, parents, educators. all have to pull their weight. the economic disparity cannot be excuse for poor performance. maybe if anything, mr. thurmond can bring a renewed mindset and serve as role model for many in the county. let’s wish him well. maybe he could serve two years for the price of one.

Private Citizen

February 15th, 2013
7:36 am

Anyone wish to say why Benjamin Franklin posted as “Poor Richard” with his almanac? It made little difference in the long run, even after Franklin saved the American Revolution, the political class still made an unfriendly climate for him and left the country for his latter years. Seriously, if you expect a Georgia government schools administrator to be well-read, you best keep looking. For some reasons in the USA, careerists tend to be occupied with current power, not tradition of knowledge, sequence or foundation. Philosophy (people’s thoughts and opinions) is basically banned in the scripted curriculum. Go teach Plato, Rene DeCartes, Michel de Montaine (inventor of the essay) in Georgia government schools and you just put your head on the guillotine, get ready for some professional harassment from the professional administrators with their catalog of a hundred motivational acronyms, many of these recycled and in conflict with prior use.

Confidence in the goodness of another is good proof of one’s own goodness.
Michel de Montaigne

Private Citizen

February 15th, 2013
7:39 am

Good essay by Schutten. Covers the basics. Keep saying it, if from a hundred sources. Keep saying it.

Dr. John Trotter

February 15th, 2013
7:45 am

Didn’t Pete have this discussion the other day about blogging anonymously? I use my real name…like I did the other day when I responded in detail to his essay about whether schools were out of control. I never got a response from my rather long, detailed and name-attached post wherein I stated unequivocally that most urban schools are out of control for lack of discipline.

Discipline – or the lack thereof – is what Commissioner Thurmond should pay close attention to, but he won’t because it is not sexy enough. In fact, no superintendent that DeKalb brings in will pay attention to the real and egregious problems in the school system. The problem is not the teachers and the need to use some dumba$s evaluation form to “improve” their teaching. The problem are the lazy, spoiled, defiant, and disruptive students (not all but a sizeable number of the students), the irate and irresponsible parents (again, not all but many parents), and the angry, myopic, petty, small-minded, and abusive administrators (the clear majority). These are the real problems which hardly anyone or any group (with the exception of MACE) will address. I can see why David and ODE will not address the latter because these administrators are his members. I think that I know why the AJC won’t address these real problems…because it is not politically correct to do so. But, hey, has anyone ever accused me of being politically correct? Ha!

As far as blogging anonymously goes, Pete and David are clueless if they think that it is wise for teachers to use their real names on this or other blogs. What world do these guys live in?

Clutch Cargo

February 15th, 2013
7:48 am

For once, I agree with Bootney and Beverly- Posting under your real name is career suicide and the author knows it. It’s not like the school system listens to anonymous bloggers (or even their own employees) anyway.

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
7:55 am

@Peter it wasn’t about Beverly Hall, and I think you know that’s a disingenuous dodge. It’s about the proposition that the name (or lack thereof) on a blog post makes the poster’s opinion not valid.

The logical implication is that Kathy Augustine’s contention that there was “no need to investigate” was somehow more valid than those who screamed “THIS IS CHEATING!” because her name was attached.

It’s simply not a logically defensible position; add to that Dr. John Trotter who gladly signs off on his own name, and when he buttresses other bloggers, with his name, yet the response is still not forthcoming it tends to render the “anonymous blogger” meme as nothing more than a red herring, does it not?

Facts and logic should rule the day not “names” such as Michelle Rhee, and Arne Duncan.

Cindy Lutenbacher

February 15th, 2013
7:59 am

David Schutten makes a lot of good points, and I’d like to highlight a few:
DeKalb is losing good teachers and administrators. My guess is that this fact has less to do with money and more to do with another point Schutten makes–class sizes have become so large that teachers know they’re not able to do what they love in the ways that they respect and love. I have only a wealth of stories from teachers to back up this statement.
The focus on standardized test scores has hobbled good teachers and good pedagogy. Schutten notes that young ones cannot sit still for long periods of time, and I believe such is true for all of us. Sure, many jobs require lengthy focus…but without stretch breaks? Coffee breaks? Movement of some kind? We’ve got to end this standardized testing dementia and let good teachers teach.
The TKES evaluation system, as I’ve read it, is absurd. Other school systems have implemented much more authentic assessments of teachers; let’s study those, rather than flushing more taxpayer dollars down the next corporate commode that has the biggest payola for politicians.
And…I have to honor teachers who do not wish to use their real names for fear of reprisals or job loss. [I'm not sure that particular caveat applies to most of the folks who post here.] But my real point is that all of the posts here should be viewed openly and skeptically, including mine. Let’s have reasonable, civil, and well-considered conversation here, so that we can thoughtfully do what Schutten requests–come together to take action, for the sake of our kids.

Married with (School) Children

February 15th, 2013
8:02 am

Here is how the second-to-last paragraph should have read:

“Stop taking everything anonymous bloggers post as the truth. If their opinion has merit, they would be willing to put their real names behind their statements. Volunteer to read to Mr. David Sutton and teach him about the concepts of RETALIATION and CAREER SUICIDE.”

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
8:03 am

From Dr. Trotter

“I never got a response from my rather long, detailed and name-attached post wherein I stated unequivocally that most urban schools are out of control for lack of discipline.”

@Peter, two bloggers questioned your essay and you (best I can recall) choose not to answer based on two justifications:

1) they are anonymous
2) they can’t document they’ve been to “hundreds of schools” like you can.

Yet Dr. Trotter also questioned the validity of your assertions; and we can document A) he uses his own name and B) he’s been in numerous schools in multiple systems.

So why not engage him in legitimate debate, when he meets your two criteria for doing so?

ShooShee

February 15th, 2013
8:03 am

Didn’t the school system just lose a lawsuit to a teacher who had the audacity to speak out at a board meeting and was promptly riffed? Although that suit cost the system over $300,000, they continue to intimidate – so, no, many absolutely cannot use their real names when posting. So, is the solution then to stay silent? That seems to be what many are doing – at the insistence of David and others.

This would have been a good essay if David could have gotten over his sensitivity to the criticisms he has suffered from blogs and chosen not to bash those with an anonymous opinion of how he performs his very public job. And perhaps left off the rambling about middle schoolers’ messy lockers… Mentioning those kinds of side issues take the conversation off into irrelevant discussions like you see here.

Just hammer the basics David and leave the ‘rest’ off the table – randomness muddies the waters.

Attentive Parent/Invisible Serfs Collar

February 15th, 2013
8:11 am

The problem I have with David’s letter is that if people just had a better attitude things could get better. Well, no. I was born in the metro area and remember Dekalb before it went off the rails. Both Dekalb and Atlanta aggressively adopted the Standards for Teaching and Learning put out in the 90s and the sociocultural learning push instead of knowledge transmission. APS was already weak but it destroyed the schools in Dekalb that did work. And in both systems the administrators who knew what they were pushing and the disconnect with what they were telling taxpayers and parents seem to be prone to corruption. Not necessarily bribes although that is clearly a problem in Dekalb. It’s more a matter of greedy or mediocre people who will push anything that will get them a bonus or another promotion. All at absurd rates of compensation for what these people actually know or can do.

Now we are nationalizing what broke Dekalb as the real Common Core implementation. Except this time we have poorly understood performance assessments that will mask the anti-intellectual consequences of what is to be actually going on in the classroom. Beverly Hall almost made it to the alternative assessments the urban school districts have lobbied for so long. http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/throwing-an-invisibility-cloak-over-the-classroom-to-get-to-deweys-participatory-social-inquiry/ lays out how these performance assessments are actually group work with ill-structured tasks designed to deliberately enforce collaboration as there is no right answer.

On anonymity, I use a pseudonym here because I always have for consistency. But I am not anonymous. I do reserve the right though to blur which of my observations are from personal experience and where they occurred vs all the experiences that now get related to me. I think it’s important for parents to have an outlet. I deal with people close to hysterics many days. In shock on what is coming to their always high-performing suburban schools. Because the goal is not to make APS or Dekalb better. The gap is to be closed by destroying what works anywhere.

And if that seems fantastic, following up on the Positive School Climate docs yesterday led to the acknowledgement that is is the Technical-Rationalist mind being targeted by the schools. Which again puts what has gone on in Dekalb and APS in a new and accurate light.

cris

February 15th, 2013
8:16 am

Not sure if this is worth posting or not (but I do know to post under my real name would lead to….nothing good), DeKalb County – there are many teachers in many different systems watching to see if things can be turned around in your district. If it can be done there, then it gives the rest of us hope that it can be done where we are – that we can truly put the students needs first and make meaningful changes like lowering class sizes, making administration work for the students and teachers rather than against, and begin to have real conversations about abandoning all these ridiculous testing, curriculum and evaluations that the vast majority know won’t work before they are even implemented. Don’t ask teachers to “buy in” to anything else – systems need to “buy in” to their teaching staffs ability to make the right decisions for their students! We’re all watching DeKalb….make it worth the wait.

Dunwoody Mom

February 15th, 2013
8:23 am

David had some good general points, but his op-ed didn’t delve deep enough into the problems facing the school system – but, then again, that would take a novel.

I do disagree with his point on Thurmond’s lack of education experience. If Mr. Thurmond was coming into a “healty” DCSS, both academically and financially, and all that was needed was a “placeholder” until a permanent Super could be hired, then I would be okay with his selection. DCSS is in crisis and it will take someone who understand education and finance to even begin to address the myriad of problems facing this system.

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
8:24 am

If David and Peter won’t address people like Dr. John Trotter and Invisible Serf (who makes no secret of her real name) can’t we pretty much dismiss the “anonymous blogger = no validity” meme for the red herring it so obviously is?

And I would strongly suggest listening to Serf, for the rest of the education debate may devolve into, “Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?” territory if we fail to heed the warnings.

To think the Texas legislature may be actually right in its educational concerns…

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
8:26 am

@Serf, lacking an otherwise effective rebuttal, what would you say to those who dismiss you as having a merely ethnocentric western civilization point of view, unwilling to address the multiple wrongs wrought by unfettered capitalism?

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
8:30 am

The AJC’s investigation is among the reasons she’s gone. You won. No need to keep posting, regardles of the content of an essay, on what she did several years ago.

@Peter, an investigation that may have never happened if the blogsphere and “off the record” comments to reporters hadn’t lead reporters to shed some light on the darkness…

And Peter, I would encourage you to read Invisible Serf; if she’s correct, Hall might be gone, but the war isn’t over…it hasn’t even begun yet!

Really?

February 15th, 2013
8:31 am

Ah, the great liberal mindset. And I’m a liberal, mind you. But this crap about kids not being able to sit still? It’s not that kids can’t sit still, it’s that parents don’t make them. Been in a restaurant lately? Little Johnny finishes his meal and either destroys the table or runs around. Oh, he’s so cute! Teaching methods that have worked don’t need to be changed, the kids do. Yet you’re proposing we throw out what has worked because parents refuse to be parents? Are you kidding me?

And the talk of only title 1 schools. I guess only the kids who are poor in DeKalb need great teachers? Here we go again – the majority of DeKalb is black and poor, so let’s just focus on that shall we while the rest of DeKalb gets forgotten. Wake up! There are Asian kids and white kids and Hispanic kids (and families) trying to get educated.

It gets old after a while, hearing the same old same old…

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
8:37 am

If you think the problem is merely local clowns masquerading as board members read the following:

AUSTIN, Texas – Parents of school children across Texas now are gaining access to a previously secret public school curriculum, according to an announcement from a state lawmaker.

The CSCOPE program, an online offering that until now has prohibited, under penalty of law, teachers from sharing the lessons with parents, stirred up controversy because of its various lessons – some that were taken offline after the questions arose.

Common Core is already looking into using the curriculum to bypass those who would reject RTTP. What does it say that the makers want to impose criminal penalties for even detailing what is being taught to children? Red flag if I ever saw one…

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
8:39 am

Disclaimer: the link is not an endorsement of WND; just a link

Dr. John Trotter

February 15th, 2013
8:40 am

@ Beverly Fraud: I rather enjoy reading the Serf’s blog and postings here at Get Schooled. The Common Core Curriculum is an attempt to water-down the intellectual rigor in exchange for group or project work. The schools need to get back to the requisite memorization of facts and information, viz., content. You know…the same stuff that is required in law school, medical school, pharmacy school, etc.

Dunwoody Mom

February 15th, 2013
8:45 am

I would also disagree with David Schutten, the system has already taken a nose dive. It’s about to crash land without some type of drastic intervention – and the appointment of Mike Thurmond, alone, is not that drastic intervention.

Decatur Guy

February 15th, 2013
8:45 am

Hey Maureen, did you hear that the school that Obama visited was not even open yesterday and that all those people who were there were asked to be there for the photo op?

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
8:52 am

@Dr. Trotter my first thought was Serf was wacko suggesting educrats actually extolled the virtues of Chairman Mao as an “effective leader” and suggesting systems like Fulton create educational outcomes to reflect that “effectiveness.”

Only to find out it’s actually true!

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
9:03 am

this reminds me of the Scarlett O’hara approach.

don’t bother me with things I don’t want to hear.

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
9:10 am

I have no problem taking stands in my own name. I do it constantly, and continue to do so often. However I’m not gonna commit career suicide so David can feel good about himself.

posting as much as I do here under any name is risk enough.

plus, it seems David and possibly Dr. Pete are missing the point of the irony which goes into the selection of some of these names. even the names themselves are statements.

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
9:13 am

the more I think about it, the more bothered I am that David isn’t bothered by Mike T’s lack of experience in education.

in what other area (besides government) are people with zero experience in said industry put in charge of it.

and lets not kid ourselves. this is an audition for Mike T to get the job on a full time basis. its his to lose, unless Walker and co are removed from their positions.

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
9:19 am

@bootney I think we’ve already exposed the red herring aspect of Peter’s and David’s “anonymous” complaint, as they both apparently beat a quick and hasty retreat when it was pointed out Dr. Trotter is more than willing to post his name as well as his experiences in the schools.

They thought they had a trump card, til Dr. T. pulled the ace on the river!

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
9:21 am

@ beverly

re: Maoism

you should try higher ed. we make primary schools look like pikers in this area. the cult of personality we build around presidents and coaches is downright scary.

frustrated dekalb teacher

February 15th, 2013
9:27 am

dave’s bully-ish demand that people afraid of committing career suicide by not putting their names on comments shrieks to why i do not respect or support the man. he is another career non-teacher telling everyone how teaching should be done. i have taught in dekalb for a long time, but must consider going to another system or career just so i can keep a roof over my head and pay my bills. teachers at our school are reprimanded for being out sick, even with doctor’s notes; teachers are routinely threatened for speaking up; dekalb is not about educating children. if your child has a caring teacher who is at least trying to teach them, count yourself lucky; most of what i see at our school is a dog-and-pony show. pathetic. and now we have another non-teacher getting a huge salary to come run things.

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
9:29 am

@ beverly

agreed, but the kiss butt-ness of the comment is telling in so many ways, and I think illustrates in stark detail why education is in free fall in Georgia and elsewhere.

-don’t criticize me, I know better.
-don’t challenge me, I am better
-own it when you do, so I can punish you / ruin your career for the audacity to think you matter
-stop being negative and bask in my brilliance
-join hands and sing the praises of my brilliance

an in the style of Obi Wan Walker. “these are not the problems you’re looking to solve”

Michelle-Middle School

February 15th, 2013
9:34 am

Mr. Thurmond, I wish you only the best in your new, daunting position. Personally, I believe your lack of experience in education just may be the key to success for you. You will be able to look at everything within the system and see problems others may not see. Atlanta needs you. Everyone should appreciate you for accepting this challenge.

Digger

February 15th, 2013
9:56 am

Hey Peter, what say all bloggers use their real name the day a student gets less than an A in your class?

John Smith

February 15th, 2013
10:06 am

I can tell you why I choose not to blog under my own name. I have two children in the Dekalb County school system and I fear retaliation and retribution against my children if it is revealed that I am one of the harsh critics of the system. I did not come to this conclusion on my own, but after discussions with two or three teachers over the past year it became apparent that I needed to make a change.

Pardon My Blog

February 15th, 2013
10:09 am

I think the most glaring problem with Mr. Thurmond, other than no experience in the education field, is that fact that he is spending his time not addressing the problems with the system but he is campaigning at the State Capitol on behalf of the Board so they can keep their jobs! That seems to be his priority, saving the jobs of his friends and not addressing the mismanagement! Mr. Schutten seems to forget this and that is why most of us are so frustrated. It is the same old, same old.

As for posting anonymously, I have seen first hand what happens to a parent (and teacher) that spoke out and had the audacity to voice their opinion that was not what the Board and the Superintendent wanted to hear. Not only did they suffer, but their kids suffered in the classroom from teachers who did not agree with that individual.

AlreadySheared

February 15th, 2013
10:10 am

“Taking” a nose dive? Who has wanted to work there in the last 10 years? Who has gone home and said ‘holy smokes, I finally got hired by DEKALB!’ ?

Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure

February 15th, 2013
10:11 am

“though his replacement has been a bit of a disappointment”

@concernedmom Hasn’t McMahan been in his seat for about 30 days? How can he be judged a disappointment on 30 days in office?

Anonymous in DeKalb

February 15th, 2013
10:27 am

As the teachers’ union rep acknowledges in his article, the system is in a tailspin. After decades of over-hyped education theory and “innovation,” test results remain where they were. Or worse.

But his article’s a plea to maintain the status quo. So are the comments from other education establishment mouthpieces we hear regularly from in this blog.

Mr. Thurmond, let DeKalb parents decide who is talking the most sense in offering solutions. Give parents more choice options — starting with more charter schools — and let a free marketplace lead us out of the morass yesterday’s leaders have consigned our children to.

William Casey

February 15th, 2013
10:41 am

@MAUREEN: I am very pleased to hear of the blog shift. Long term, I believe that it will improve the quality of our discussions. As for using real names, though I would choose differently, I can understand why a DeKalb employee would choose to use a screen name in fear of retribution. Anyone else? You’re simply gutless and your opinions have little credibility.

William Casey

February 15th, 2013
10:42 am

Good luck to Michael Thurmond. Monumental task.

bu2

February 15th, 2013
10:44 am

Anonymity issues aside, it is an excellent commentary.

First priority is keeping accreditation. Graduating seniors need their diplomas to count. Dr. Walker needs to see that his position as head of the board is an impediment to that.

We need to put more resources in the classroom. We need to help students with their organizational skills. We need to not treat 1st graders like adults and realize that sitting in a desk all day is not conducive to maximizing their educational experience. If you have a student who can’t sit still and punish them by taking away “wiggle” time, the teacher is cutting off her nose to spite her face. We need to understand everyone learns differently, and adopt innovative ways to teach, including allowing students to move a little more. And yes, don’t run with as fact anything you have read on the internet. I’ve seen so many flat out lies (and not just rumor mongering, but things the poster should know is not true or things they just totally made up) posted as fact on school issues, its amazing. Remember the commercial about the blonde and her “French model” date who she met on the internet?

Finally, the mentality that things have to be this way needs to be changed. They don’t. Communities can work together. Things don’t have to continue on a downward spiral. The administration doesn’t have to present controversial issues Friday at 4pm on a holiday weekend because they are afraid of the public response. There can be communication and respectful feedback. Dekalb’s never going to be the best school district in the state, but it can be a model for urban districts. There are pockets of strength throughout the county.

CPA

February 15th, 2013
10:44 am

It is evident that Dekalb is spending all of their money on administration costs in stead of the students. They could use the money to reduce class sizes.

indigo

February 15th, 2013
10:46 am

As long as social experiments, designed to bring black test scores up to white levels, are of primary importance in this school system, no superintendent will be successful.

I wonder how long it will take the school system to learn this?

bu2

February 15th, 2013
10:47 am

And on one of his other points. Its absolutely ridiculous to spend 5 weeks a year preparing or taking standardized tests.

Comment in Moderation

February 15th, 2013
10:52 am

Is the Ministry of Truth in operation today?

Comment in Moderation

February 15th, 2013
10:53 am

Why yes it is….congratulations Mr. Smith!!

DeKalbinator

February 15th, 2013
10:53 am

I agree the parents need to be more involved and keyed in to make the education system work. Too many in DeKalb are not. Why does registration and class assignment take up to two full weeks after school starts? New students show up at school each day. Literally, the first two weeks of school are a waste of time for most students as their schedules are constantly changed. This IS the parents fault for not registering the kids and getting them to school on Day 1.
I believe Michael Thurmond is a good administrator and could probably do a pretty good job if given the chance without the inept DeKalb Board of Education. If they are removed by the state, Thurmond might actually be the best thing to happen to the school system. If the board stays in place, I fear it will be “business as usual” in the DCPS. I am very unhappy that one of his stated goals is to keep the board in place. I figured this was the case even before he had the gonads to come out and tell everyone. Sorry Mike, but it is not the superintendent’s job in any way to represent and protect the board. You need to be doing what you can to improve the system for both the students and teachers. If the state decides the board need to go, then so be it and good riddance. I only hope they can appoint some other people who put the kids first rather than worrying about their individual political power.

bu2

February 15th, 2013
11:00 am

On the anonymity issue, when you see some of the comments that get through the filter (and Maureen filters many more-and you see some extreme ones on other blogs that don’t have manual or automatic filters), unless you already are a public figure, you have to be crazy to use your real name. Its not gutless. Its common sense. There are people who get easily offended and there are crazy people out there, who may not even be posting.

And with businesses searching the internet on employment applications, strong opinions could cost you a job, especially on this blog if you are a teacher.

A Disgusted Dad

February 15th, 2013
11:06 am

I certainly am praying the state does the right thing next week and they DCPS does not waste any more money on legal fees by filing suit in the matter of removing the school board.
Thurmond does not need to be wasting time and effort trying to save this board. They have a proven track record of not doing the right thing and ruining a once proud school system.

DeKalb Inside Out

February 15th, 2013
11:06 am

Bill & Ed’s Excellent Adventure said
“How can [McMahan] be judged a disappointment on 30 days in office?”

Jim McMahan
* voted YES for lawyers to fight the State BOE
* voted YES on Edler for chair
* voted YES to bring in more lawyers regarding the Atkinson messages
* is involved with Friends of DeKalb
* voted YES for Michael Thurmond as interim Super

Many people don’t like this trend. –DIO

AlreadySheared

February 15th, 2013
11:10 am

@William Casey
Ahh the courage of a retired guy with a vested pension….

Prof

February 15th, 2013
11:19 am

@ Maureen. When you switch to blog-name registration, will you have some way of assuring that longtime bloggers can retain their blog-names if they wish, or will it simply be first come, first served? That is, if some new blogger wants to register as “Prof” before I do, will he or she be allowed to do so? (And then proceed to post Tea Party rants against the younger generation with their namby-pamby teachers?)

paulo977

February 15th, 2013
11:24 am

Maureen . You do have..my acurate e-mail address !!

Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure

February 15th, 2013
11:28 am

@DIO * voted YES on Edler for chair — I thought Walker was the “bad guy”? Now Edler is too?

* voted YES for Michael Thurmond as interim Super – as opposed to voting for no one to run Dekalb schools. You were happy with Atkinson?

Just pointing out some of the ongoing contradiction, and at times absurdity of some of the commentary lately.

whatever

February 15th, 2013
11:34 am

While I completely agree there is a lack of personal discipline, lack of respect and lack of actual parenting going on I do not agree that Thurmond is the man for the job. He walks in the door and just interviewing for the job sent bloggers into a tailspin because they know he is not qualified. We don’t need more politicians, we have those. We need a hard ass. He gets the job and heads to the state capital. Why? Seems to me he should have been at some of the worst schools in DeKalb checking things out. He should have been unavailable to reporters because he was covered in financial reports. He is not serious about the educational, fiscal or personnel management side of his job. He is a politician and that is where his interests lie. He is not qualified to speak on behalf of the board, he is not their lawyer although he sure is acting like one. I know his real day job is a lawyer. That is our point. He hasn’t quit his day job.

DeKalb Inside Out

February 15th, 2013
11:52 am

Bill & Ed’s Excellent Adventure
Walker may be the leader of the Walker 5, but many people hold contempt for Edler as well. I’m guessing if McMahan said he supported Edler for chair during his campaign, he would not have won. Just a theory.

Atkinson was a crook like her predecessors. I’m aware of the parade of people that passed in and out of the executive sessions. Thurmond was not the best choice. Seems like most commenters on Get Schooled aren’t happy with that decision either. “More of the same” is the vibe I’m getting.

You asked why people might be disappointed in McMahan’s 30 day tenure. I’m just throwing out some ideas.

Light

February 15th, 2013
12:00 pm

I’ve learned that people who get upset by people who post using an anonymous name just doesn’t like being criticized, and often the criticism is warranted, especially if they are acting in a capacity of an elected official or highly visible person. But other than that comment above, I thought this was a great commentary.

The Deal

February 15th, 2013
12:04 pm

Another reason I’m not fond of Thurmond is that he was not even this board’s first choice. Wasn’t Fran Millar quoted as saying he knew another candidate they asked and turned DeKalb down?

dekalbite@Maureen

February 15th, 2013
12:06 pm

I know you can change your screen name, but I thought an accurate email address was already required for posting to the AJC Get Schooled blog. When DeKalb School Watch blog changed their commenting policy to a registration policy, I had to make a change to my permanent screen name due to the way it was done. Whatever – it does not seem to have made much of a dent in their number of comments. Don’t know about their “hits” on the website as that is information only they have.

Ernest

February 15th, 2013
12:07 pm

David shared a lot of good points in his column. I won’t discount everything he said because of one or two paragraphs I might not agree with. I’ve seen his attempts on this and other blogs to bring accurate information to readers only to be turned on in a venomous manner. I agree that anonymity allows those who disagree with a point to become vitriolic and rancorous with their responses. I still want to believe that blogs can be self-correcting, even if one uses a pseudonym. This only works if differing opinions are welcome, especially if they can be ‘fact checked’.

I speak to teachers on a regular basis, simply asking how things are going with their schools and classes. Despite having larger class sizes with reduced salaries, all indicated that learning is still taking place. Of course there are still behavior challenges and it too many cases, little to no guardian involvement however this does not dissuade the teachers I know from going to work each day and giving their all. Perhaps because of additional resources and/or family situations, some children are getting more out of their school day than others. For this reason, I get frustrated when I see bloggers paint a wide, negative brush in describing my community.

Despite the actions of our Board and inaccurate comments by some bloggers, teachers are working hard and children are learning. Yes, teachers are doing more with less and students are expected to do more without the kind of individual attention they received in years past. Several teachers I know point back to the introduction of ‘Whole Language’ instruction back in the late 80’s and 90’s as the beginning of the downward trend in Education. Once those in charge realized it was not succeeding, we’d already created a generation of students that did not have a foundation in reading. Additional ‘box education’ programs since then have had mixed results.

I agree with Dr. Trotter in that if there existed a ‘fair but firm’ discipline policy that allowed schools to address students intent on distracting the learning process for others, I believe we would see the overall leaning environment improve. In my opinion, most of this starts at home. While one’s address should not solely dictate the quality of education a child receives, how do we collectively address this?

Dr. John Trotter

February 15th, 2013
12:42 pm

Thanks for your comments, Ernest. You are exactly right about Whole Language. It is a travesty. I railed against it 20 years ago when it became such a fad. Phonics is the way to teach children to decode language…to break it down.

The teachers are doing a phenomenal job working within the perameters that they have to work. I will repeat the undisputed mantra of MACE from the very beginning of MACE 18 years ago: You cannot have good learning conditons until you first have good teaching conditions.

You guys have fun. I’ll be out of pocket for a few days. Maureen, I always enjoy your blog!

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
12:48 pm

@ Maureen

+1 with Prof. while I can’t imagine anyone else out there wanting to be bootney, I have spend some time for good or ill establishing a rep and persona I’d rather not have supplanted

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
12:52 pm

another item to consider about screen names:

some schools forbid publishing anything in your own name without prior approval from administration. GPC did that under Tricoli.

Returning DCSS Parent

February 15th, 2013
12:53 pm

I am rooting for Michael Thurmond’s success as interim superintendent. I find that too often superintendents are tasked with balancing budgets, etc. and some have no real experience dealing with multi-million budgets which creates an issue in itself. Most of the board should be replaced but having someone at the helm with great leadership skills, knows how to deal with various personalities and can help balance a budget is a huge improvement over the last 4 people that held the superintendent position for DCSS.

Don't Tread

February 15th, 2013
12:58 pm

Well I think the “anonymous bloggers” here with some inside knowledge of the situation just shot David’s essay down in flames. Try again, David, and lose the “holier than thou” attitude next time.

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
1:18 pm

@William Casey and “…and your opinions have little credibility.”

William that simply does not stand up to facts and logic

Bloggers with pseudonyms posted that APS was engaged in systemic, widespread cheating. They backed that up with hard and fast data from the AJC.

Kathy Augustine, using her real name, stated, “We see no need to investigate; we expect outliers every year.”

Using your metric of “credibility” Kathy Augustine’s words in the AJC have more credibility than those who were trying to alert the public to cheating. Do you really want to stand by the assertion than Kathy Augustine had more credibility than those bloggers who tried to alert the public to widespread, systemic cheating?

Do you really want to give more credibility to Andrew Young’s assertion that, “anybody with common sense” would want Beverly Hall to continue as APS head because he used his real name?

That’s the road your quote leads us down, does it not?

Claudia Stucke

February 15th, 2013
1:35 pm

@Cindy L–Good point about why teachers are leaving. Many of us stayed through several years of no retirement contributions, which were promised, then rescinded in exchange for the promise of no furlough days, and even stayed on when we were told to accept furlough days after all (along with no retirement contributions). We stayed through pay freezes, even though we could get better-paying jobs, even in this economy. We loved our kids, and we loved teaching. The final straw for me was class size–not just the sheer number of students crammed into a classroom (and sitting on the floor when we couldn’t squeeze in more desks), but inability to comply with Individual Education Plans (small groups, low sound volume, proximity to the front of the room, etc. . . . ) and trying to get graded written assignments back into students’ hands within a reasonable time. Schutten is correct when he says that the current situation is destructive to morale. I often return to my former school and work with high-risk students and assist teachers in any way I can; I still miss teaching. I admire and respect my colleagues who have continued to give their best. They may be exhausted, but they’re still there; and they’re made of sterner stuff than most of the rest of us.

Parents for DeKalb Schools

February 15th, 2013
1:36 pm

Schutten fails to recognize that parents fear retaliation if they speak the truth. And thus the tailspin continues…

Follor us:
http://www.Facebook.com/ParentsForDeKalbCountySchools

waltbellamy

February 15th, 2013
2:03 pm

@ Prof & Bootney

The blogs in the AJC sport section did not reserve previous screen names when they shifted to the new platform.

YMMV

Prof

February 15th, 2013
2:17 pm

Well, waltbellamy, mysteriously a few months ago when I went to register with the new comment section now connected with the news articles I was informed that “Prof” was already taken. And I haven’t seen any comments there since by “Prof.”

teacherwantingachange

February 15th, 2013
2:30 pm

Ernest,

“Learning is still taking place.”

Yes, but what are students learning?

High school students in crowded class rooms with exhausted, frustrated teachers may be learning how to work in groups, but I don’t think they’re learning skills and facts necessary to succeed in college preparatory classes (just look at the testing data). And I don’t think many are learning or improving critical reading, thinking, and writing skills they could in smaller groups with more direct instruction, feedback from a teacher with more time to prepare meaningful lessons.

High school students in large classes where “differentiated instruction” is the primary teaching strategy are learning that there is always someone else to provide the answer or do the work while everyone “collaborates.”

High school students are learning that you have to take tests but the scores don’t really mean anything, at least in Dekalb County (just look at the website to see how poorly so many of our students do on state and county-issued tests) where students are moved along to the next class.

High school students are learning that you don’t really have to heed any due dates or instructions-just look at the way Dekalb promotes “re-do” or “make-up.”

High school students are learning that there aren’t really any consequences to disruptive or unethical behavior-just look at Dekalb’s “call the parents” discipline policy or the board.

This isn’t some pessimistic teacher’s negative rant. This is a frustrated teacher so very concerned for our students and the future of metro Atlanta.

Starik

February 15th, 2013
2:48 pm

Teacher, when kids sleep in your class do you wake them up?

Dekalb Teacher

February 15th, 2013
2:54 pm

Kudos to you, Mr. Schutten! Someone has finally addressed the myriad of issues confronting DCSS from an educator’s perspective. We are in the classroom every day, trying our best with limited resources to help our students achieve. And I agree, a lot of what we’re required to do is “window dressing” to make someone at the top look good while our students continue to fail. Hopefully, there will be a positive change coming soon!

Starik

February 15th, 2013
2:59 pm

Teacher, do you show movies in class to entertain the kids?

teacherwantingachange

February 15th, 2013
3:23 pm

Yes, but most don’t, at least if we’re judging sleeping by eyes closed and/or head on desk.

No.

Attentive Parent/Invisible Serfs Collar

February 15th, 2013
3:35 pm

Ernest–On your point on Learning, those side documents on Common Core’s actual implementation that I read to make sure I do know what I am talking about and can prove it, define learning as a CHANGE in values, attitudes, beliefs, or behaviors in response to what goes on in the classroom. That means there’s no knowledge required. All the changes can in fact be emotional or social interaction or being a better group partner.

In fact CCSSI shifts the focus away from mental activity all together. That will give real life advantages to children whose parents are attentive and have the wherewithal to provide travel, factual discussions at the dinner table, and other amenities. THAT is not equitable and too often leaves those who have little aggrieved and ignorant and blaming the wrong people for life’s injustices.

Whole Language was a part of the Standards for Learning and Teaching I mentioned. Reading print symbolically and fluently bolsters the abstract mind and fosters that very sense of individuality that so many in the education professorate wish to destroy. One, James Paul Gee now at Arizona State and determined to make gaming a classroom focus, says: ” there are no discrete individuals. Only ensembles of skills stored in a person, assembled for a specific project, to be reassembled for other projects, and shared with others in “communities of practice.”

Now I would like to keep my current name after registration but someone can go for “Yes I am a Discrete Individual” or “Techno-Rationalist” since both are specifically being targeted by some of those who train our future teachers. And especially by those who train our future Principals and Supers.

An American Patriot (not my real name)

February 15th, 2013
4:22 pm

So Maureen, with your new policy I hope you don’t get paid by the number of comments posted. As to the DCSS problem, the only solution is to split the system into two pieces. That way, everyone will be happy. The way it is presently, only half are happy.

Ernest

February 15th, 2013
4:32 pm

teacherwantingachange, I’ll admit the teachers I spoke with represent a very small sample size. Each teacher will have a different experience based on a combination of several factors. My point was that despite all that is going on that they have no control over, those teachers are still going to work everyday and giving their all on behalf of their students. The amount of learning taking place can be subjective but at least those I spoke with believe they are making a difference.

Interesting, one asked if I posted on this site (recognizing my name). She indicated she gets frustrated with the comments denigrating DeKalb schools. I told her to stay away from blogs and focus her energies on being the best teacher possible for her students. People like myself (and there are many out there) will handle the much of the ‘blocking and tackling’ with their guidance so she and her fellow teachers can concentrate on the classroom.

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
4:38 pm

@ Claudia

I feel you. many of us from GPC stayed through much the same, only to be dumped on our butts with not so much as a I’m sorry first.

unless a DCSS has a very compelling reason to stay, I urge them to take the first professional train out they can ride on. what happened to GPC is almost certainly gonna happen to you.

Lee

February 15th, 2013
4:56 pm

Seems to me, controversy in Dekalb is the best thing that has happened to Mr Schutten’s organization. Per the ODE website, their membership has grown exponentially in the past few years to about 1700 members. Dues for a certified teacher are $48/month.

So, ODE is making money off educators, but he thinks my opinion doesn’t matter because I post under an pseudonym?? Give me a break.

And to those who boast “I blog using my real name.” Really? A) How do I know that and B) do you realize how easy it is for some psycho to find out about you, including driving directions to your house complete with a street level view of your front door?
————————————-

“All prospective administrators should be required to be required to take and achieve a high score on a writing test before being eligible for promotion.”

LOL. Oh wait, you were serious. What happens when whites pass “the writing test” at a greater rate than blacks? Look up the promotion tests the City of Atlanta used to give to the police and firemen. I think they did away with them back when Andy Young was mayor, or at least dumbed them down so that anyone with a 75 IQ could pass.
————————————–

I do agree that the lack of educational experience of Thurmond does not bother me. Heck, it might even be an asset. The best thing Thurmond has going for him is the prefix “interim”.

William Casey

February 15th, 2013
5:06 pm

@BEVERLY: With the exception I listed, using one’s real name DOES stand up to LOGIC and REASON in the world of ideas. Ms Augustine used her name because SHE HAD NO CHOICE. I don’t know why you keep bringing that up! I ALWAYS consider the source when evaluating information. Anonymous blowhards are useless. Stand behind your opinions! (Exception for those upon whom retaliation might be visited.)

waltbellamy

February 15th, 2013
5:10 pm

@ Prof

If you have checked every single blog comment in every section of the paper since the transistion began that still does not mean that someone did not sign up using your handle and has yet to post a comment. I will keep a good thought for you.

YMMV

William Casey

February 15th, 2013
5:11 pm

@ALREADYSHEARED: Check out my record as Dean of Students at Chattahoochee H.S. 1993-97. I didn’t have a vested pension then. What’s your lame excuse?

LOGIC

February 15th, 2013
5:22 pm

I personally don’t think that the switch to the new blog format will be an issue. 90%+ of us are intelligent, respectful and well-versed and I know that Maureen’s blog is read by both state and local educators.

Now, back to DCSD. Several folks mentioned “what choice did McMahan have?” He had the choice to choose logic as did Speaks and Jester who sat out. Towing the line with the Board “leadership” has disgraced McMahan permanently. How in the world does it make sense to have THREE individuals at Superintendent level salaries on the DCSD payroll??? We are still paying Atkinson, folks. She needed to be fired with cause for being incapable of fulfilling her duties. Wait, we are paying lawyers to defend her to see whether or not she is – we are waiting for due process. Hmmm….if that is the case, why get another Superintendent and one with no ed policy to boot, to run the system. Sounds like a great idea.

AND, even better, Mr. Thurmond can now go to the State to try to keep this Board in place as he works miracles on a system that is hemorraging cash, including on his own salary. IF he had the best interest of the county at heart as he was in discussions, he would have said, hire me but get the other folks off the payroll ASAP. Alas, he did not. NOR, were our new and supposedly more intelligent and wonderful reps vocal on what to do, but they kept quiet.

The status quo continues and I am disappointed in the local groups who fail to get well organized to drive change that matters. Folks went “to the mat” for people like Orson and McMahan who are turning out to be more of the same based upon the votes thus far and a state investigation. So sad.

We need to salvage our good schools and have a grass roots effort to insulate them from the heinous behavior and actions that this Board and school system will continue to impart upon our children and teachers. Unfortunately, this type of change would require a strong and uncompromised leader and DeKalb does not have folks stepping up to the plate even though they are “training” DeKalb Leadership.

We want to stay in our great community, but unless we stop the victim mentality, the tailspin will continue.

Nikole

February 15th, 2013
5:24 pm

I’d like to speak to the point of blogging under your own name. As a teacher, I think that we are in the mess we are in because far too many of us are SCARED to say anything. If you speak the truth, you have nothing to worry about. I am probably the only “Nikole” working for Dekalb, so anyone that wants to contact me could do so. But I am not worried about that because I never post gossip, confidential student info or anything that could be considered disrespectful. I have have however, been very critical of county decisions that I feel are not in the best interest of students. I wish more teachers would SPEAK UP! It’s the only way our voices would be heard.
OAN: The comment about kids sitting still for too long is definitely a hit at SFA.

Old timer

February 15th, 2013
6:19 pm

Serf…I remember the days real learning took place in my classroom. Classes were fun to teach, students sat quietly and learned facts. They could then write essays and incooperate said facts into their essays. They could think critically. I am glad I am retired and my children are through public schools. I think the educational goals nodays is create good worker bees….not think citizens.

Beverly Fraud

February 15th, 2013
6:25 pm

Re: I personally don’t think that the switch to the new blog format will be an issue.

Except for the fact that the layout is so visually unappealing.

Perhaps the eye gets used to it in time…

Prof

February 15th, 2013
7:12 pm

@ waltbellamy. LOL!

Jack ®

February 15th, 2013
7:41 pm

To distill the opinions offered here is to say there is no discipline in the schools.

waltbellamy

February 15th, 2013
7:43 pm

@ Prof

Glad you enjoyed that. A little levity helps avoid depression over the state of DeKalb County.

waltbellamy is available if anybody wants it. I have been considering switching to zelmobeaty for a while.

Have a great weekend all!

Bernie

February 15th, 2013
7:45 pm

Well david, only time will tell, if michael’s effort will produce the fruits of a successful outcome. Time will also reveal, even the validity of your own asessment in its evaluation. However, you cannot dispute the fact that the hiring of Michael Thurmond violates the spirit as well as the written policy of the hiring job description of any acting or interm Dekalb County School Superintendent. No matter the confidence of your own personal beliefs of the decision of hiring of Michael Thurmond and his ability to get the job done. Does not erase the fact the particular hiring policy pertaining to the required qualifications and Job experience is not being upheld to the written standards already set forth in place by the Dekalb Board of Education Members from a previous board. There is a reason why this policy is in place. it protects the integrity of the Board and the school system management and insures that the school system has the best qualified person available insure the successful operation day to day. Unlike you I am not so willing to forgive such a grievious oversight being made out of expediency. There in lies here a serious potential of this decision of making things worst. If one would to agree with your opinion, I ask of you to consider this question. What if we put an unqualified Teacher without experience in the classroom to Teach your child. Would you have faith in that TEACHER?

Bernie

February 15th, 2013
7:50 pm

These are the requirements set forth for the Deputy Superintendent.

Deputy Superintendent

The Board of Education of DeKalb County (Georgia) School District is seeking a Deputy Superintendent of Student Support and Professional Services. The Deputy Superintendent of Student Support & Professional Services will report to the Superintendent and serves in the second highest tier of administration in the organization; ensures the daily implementation of student support services which are fundamental to the effective and efficient delivery of instructional programs in a large, urban school system; has oversight responsibility for the planning, organization, and coordination of operations of all programs, services, and matters related to the school system’s Division of Student Support Services; assists the Superintendent in ensuring compliance with established Board goals, the school system’s strategic plan, and all legal and procedural requirement attendant to the effective operation of the school system.

Education and Experience:
Minimum of L-6 from a Professional Standards Commission approved accredited college or university is preferred. Minimum of ten (10) years experience as an administrator in a school system setting with demonstrated successful advancement through the instructional support administrative hierarchy required.

Certificate:
Valid Professional Standards Commission approved certified in educational leadership at level L-6 or above is required.

sam123

February 15th, 2013
8:06 pm

David is a former Dekalb county teacher. He know first hand what is needed in the classroom and in the district. He has such a passion for what he does and is very dedicated to his job, president of ODE. ODE is what it is today because of him and his followers. He has always been a voice for teachers…sometimes getting us raises that we deserved.

Private Citizen

February 15th, 2013
8:45 pm

Lee, That’s $81.6k/month, almost a million dollars a year !!!! It should be noted that the Georgia teacher no-protections situation yields a nice little cottage industry on the side for those motivated to go into the business of professional membership groups.

Regarding proper unions, just saw how the european cruise ship industry union has been issuing warning and documentation about faulty life boat release systems and the danger associated with them (i.e. people drowning). Unions are for quality work conditions and safety!! Why does everything in the USA have to be politicised!!!?

Private Citizen

February 15th, 2013
8:49 pm

A comment from the interwebs that I copy-paste-poach re: posting with identity of any kind:

“You have an identity. You have a profile. You act differently because of this. You are aware that anyone can see your profile and will judge you based on it. Some people think this is a good thing, some don’t. Some say this causes better discussion because people are more careful about what they say and others say this limits it. I agree with swrds, many users comment based on how they want to be perceived, not necessarily how they are.”

Private Citizen

February 15th, 2013
8:51 pm

The man bent over his guitar,
A shearsman of sorts. The day was green.

They said, “You have a blue guitar,
You do not play things as they are.”

The man replied, “Things as they are
Are changed upon the blue guitar.”

And they said then, “But play, you must,
A tune beyond us, yet ourselves,

A tune upon the blue guitar
Of things exactly as they are.

KIM

February 15th, 2013
9:35 pm

A little late to the dance here, but why in the world is a blogger still writing about APS and Beverly Hall? Good blogging can really get stale quickly if that continues to be brought up, Ms. Fraud.

AnonMom

February 15th, 2013
9:38 pm

Nothing – nothing — will get better for the children in the system before fiscal audits are undertaken of the money and the “trail” of funds starts to be hauled in and unwound. Personally, I believe that the “power players” really don’t’ want this to happen – they are happy with the funds going to support “pet” projects (jobs/people) and they don’t truly care about the kids (yes, this is cynical) but until policies, procedures and systems are put in place to require that the funds are used to benefit the children nothing will change — ponzis are ponzis and until mechanisms are in place to unwind them and trace the dollars, nothing else will really make a difference. Teachers flee because the money doesn’t make it to their classroom for them for their paychecks or for supplies or for toilet paper for the bathrooms or for copy paper for the copiers…. it’s all rooted in the money. There are systems around the country with much better “checks and balances’ in place to check the money – there are “fail safes” in other systems — for instance that would have had the state step in when the reserves dropped below one month’s worth of operating revenue… The very first thing that needs to happen is a forensic audit. But anytime anyone wants an audit in DCSS it gets supresssed so good luck with that….

bootney farnsworth

February 15th, 2013
9:52 pm

@ beverly

seems interesting to me the sudden increase of people taking issue with you. if you ever needed proof you’re on to something….

whatever

February 15th, 2013
11:32 pm

Shouldn’t the interim Sup. be expected to hold some sort of License by the state PSC. Obviously a Deputy needs experience and an L6. Isn’t there some sort of equivalent standard for an interim?

Bernie

February 16th, 2013
3:22 am

David in referencing your analogy of switching piliot. My question to you should not that piliot be qualified to FLY That plane. or can we just let anyone in first class or coach who are willing to step forward for the very first time and take over flying and to get those passengers safely on the ground at their agreed upon destination?

One would say you are being BETRAYED by your own comments in making this comparison. would you not agree?

Private Citizen

February 16th, 2013
6:52 am

Beverly makes a lot of good sharp observations, but as new discussion topics come along, the hearkening back for the APS situation is a non-sequitor, as the saying goes. People worry about discussion board names. For me it could be Jed, Ned, Nelly, or Shelly. Really makes no difference to me. We should have a little dexterity with use of language?

Just a note, of all of the comments of the last week or so, I would like to call-out, repeat two ideas:

1. the DeKalb situation is indeed about the money, where it goes, turning the checkbook box upside down and dumping it out to what is going on. Maybe Dekalb schools finance needs to take that radio-Dave guy’s “Financial Peace University” where you get rid of all of the dross and straighten the books out.

2. A seasoned and wise teacher commented the main difference from when things were is good is the standardised curriculum where many (especially math teachers?) have to keep moving to cover the assigned content. Point is, if the kids do not know the material or assigned content, the teacher is mandated to move on instead of teaching the kids what they need, in a wholesome way, etc. Ever do any professional travel? I spent about a year traveling in airplanes. Everything turns into a blur. That’s what it must be like for many kids in school who don’t get it and then chapter closed, the next thing comes along. A blur.

3. And to add a third, yes, veteran teachers are getting cleaned out of the system and what remains are people who are particularly physically hardy. I’ve before said, now it seems who has the physical endurance as far as who are teachers. Just an opinion.

Private Citizen

February 16th, 2013
6:57 am

It might be better if Mr. Thurmond did not talk the success words about students and teachers and instead said one thing only: “We’re going to clean out the accounting and finance and where the money is going.” Do one job and do it well. That’s on your side of the fence, Mr. Thurmond. It would be nice if you had your sh– together and stopped pandering or talking about other people. Welcome to a mess and good luck. May your sword be sharp and accurate.

Private Citizen

February 16th, 2013
7:09 am

Mr. Thurmond meets the palace gang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2rJxmqEIqY#t=41m21s

Chris Murphy

February 16th, 2013
8:30 am

The AJC investigations *were not* the result of anonymous poster’s tips: the reporters who worked on the cheating scandal had exposed other failings of the Hall administration, most notably the E-Rate scandal and the graduation rates/missing drop-outs articles(well before this blog existed). As Hall and those under her kept shoveling numbers that didn’t add up and explanations that had no logic to the inquiring reporters, they kept digging. The cheating scandal was then set up by them using APS numbers vs. statistical assessment formulas that showed the test scores to be (mathematically) incredibly improbable.

I don’t post anonymously, anywhere. I can’t see the sense of it. Reading this blog- and others- only reinforces that. Retaliation? Those who claim that would have to show me that they have ever- *ever*- confronted their particular powers-that-be on *anything.* I would imagine that the anonymous posters here most likely act at work like they do here: whiny dissenting voices in the shadows, with no courage nor any valid ideas about solutions. They’d rather protect their pissant positions, and longed-for pensions, than stand up and be accountable. Tough situations don’t build character- they reveal it.

There are valuable anonymous sources- like at the police station or the district attorney’s office. But do note that these sources are generally part and parcel of the crimes they are informing on- and I consider the anonymous voices here and elsewhere in the same light.

Mary Elizabeth

February 16th, 2013
9:25 am

“Point is, if the kids do not know the material or assigned content, the teacher is mandated to move on instead of teaching the kids what they need, in a wholesome way, etc. Ever do any professional travel? I spent about a year traveling in airplanes. Everything turns into a blur. That’s what it must be like for many kids in school who don’t get it and then chapter closed, the next thing comes along. A blur.”
====================================================

Well said. This instructional design is the opposite of a Mastery Learning instructional design, and it will, eventually, lead to more students who will fail their courses, and more students who will choose to drop-out of school, as a result.

Students must – each and all – be instructed on content and skills where they are individually functioning regardless of grade level demarcations, and, likewise, the rates of learning for each and all students must be individually adjusted if students and school systems are to meet with success.

William Casey

February 16th, 2013
10:11 am

@CHRIS MURPHY: Thank you! You stated it much more eloquently than I could have.

Prof

February 16th, 2013
11:01 am

@ Chris Murphy, Feb. 16, 8:30 am. “I would imagine that the anonymous posters here most likely act at work like they do here: whiny dissenting voices in the shadows, with no courage nor any valid ideas about solutions. They’d rather protect their pissant positions, and longed-for pensions, than stand up and be accountable.”

Oh for Heaven’s sake! You question why people might want to keep their jobs and their pensions rather than express themselves freely on an education blog under their real name? If a person is going to do that, one should really throw away one’s job and future in a way that’s going to make a difference: send a whistle-blower’s email to one’s entire school, with a CC to the State BOE, for example.

I don’t use my name because I have dealings with administrators on University committees that could be jeopardized; I have adult students who might retaliate in some way (I don’t list my address and phone number in my University directory, either); some elitist colleagues would sneer at anyone even reading public blogs; I may not care to reveal to my students my private opinions on issues covered here.

Not everyone is as carefree and footloose as you apparently are. Don’t chastise their choices.

Prof

February 16th, 2013
11:34 am

P.S. I’m aware that if they wished my students could find my home address and phone number, for if persistent enough one can find all public records through Google. But usually a poor grade isn’t enough to create an implacable enemy. However, some of the unbalanced rants that do manage to get through the filter here on Get Schooled are enough to make me want to keep my real name private when I express my opinions.

Chris Murphy

February 16th, 2013
11:35 am

I’ll chastise their choices because they make claims they can’t back up, and hide behind anonymity. Rumor, innuendo and personal attacks have been the rule, not the exception.

If what you’re doing is “sneered at,” either change your posts or change your attitude towards the sneerers. If the posts contain real, credible information- and that has been exceedingly rare- that might “make a difference,” but I doubt any of you anonymous posters make a difference anywhere, except as a payroll item. I think that what you’re really afraid of is your colleagues seeing in print just how inconsequential you really are, adding evidence to suspicions they already have.

If you’ve ever stood up to wrong-doing, incompetence or just bad judgement, having presented a case in a cogent, logical and fact-based way (as opposed to an emotional appeal), you’d know that you become someone to be reckoned with. People like that are not easy to get rid of- they most often leave of their own volition, because others of integrity value them and their professionalism, and hire them. You base your actions on fear, that becomes exactly the way you are treated. Put another way, it’s karma- you reap what you sow.

Beverly Fraud

February 16th, 2013
1:36 pm

ODE is what it is today because of him and his followers

And what would that be? A mute, emasculated voice for teachers, that can never speak with full power because if its inherent conflict of interest wrought by trying to represent teachers and their supervisors?

AlreadySheared

February 16th, 2013
4:14 pm

@Chris, WC:
I also would find it much easier to say “Stand Up! Be Brave!” in a hail of bullets if I myself was wearing body armor. Or if I was standing up inside a tank. If you haven’t noticed the muliple reports of capricious, unprofessional, and petty political acts of retaliation and retribution reported in this [education-centered] blog, then you haven’t been paying attention.

In that vein, WC, I am genuinely puzzled by your request that I refer to your work as dean of students 20 years ago. Were you making non-anonymous, provocative posts on the internet back then? Was that even possible? Or were you sending signed letters critical of your bosses and the educational establishment off to the newspaper for pubulication? I’m not being deliberately obtuse – what is your point?

Beverly Fraud

February 16th, 2013
4:29 pm

“A little late to the dance here, but why in the world is a blogger still writing about APS and Beverly Hall?”

Because it’s instructive KIM. It’s the same reason people bring up the Holocaust and Rwanda. Because those who forget history are condemned to repeat it. And since we are talking about a decade’s worth of academic genocide (and the perpetrators still haven’t been brought to account) it early, far too early to forget it.

William Casey

February 16th, 2013
4:31 pm

Dear Sheared,

I spoke up publicly about the massive cheating going on at the school. Principal Bob Burke fired me as Dean. I returned to the classroom for the last ten years of my career. Best decision I ever made. Your snide remark about the safety of my pension was uncalled for. Once again, what’s YOUR EXCUSE for failure to publicly stand behind your opinions? I think I know but I’ll listen.

Beverly Fraud

February 16th, 2013
4:46 pm

@ Chris Murphy, Feb. 16, 8:30 am. “I would imagine that the anonymous posters here most likely act at work like they do here: whiny dissenting voices in the shadows, with no courage nor any valid ideas about solutions.

@Chris Murphy, I’m glad to see you had the intellectual integrity to qualify your assumptions with words such as, “most likely” and “I would imagine.”

While many posters are perhaps as you describe, let’s not discount the possibility that some who post here have indeed taken attached their name to a stand in the workplace and have indeed had the courage of their convictions to offer valid solutions to systemic dysfunctions.

Private School Guy

February 16th, 2013
5:11 pm

As a long time follower of this blog as well as DeKalb School Watch I have noticed over the years that Mr. Schutten has ben a bit thin skinned when confronted with anonymous criticism. Great leaders let this type of thing roll over them and come out looking better in the long run. Being critical of bloggers comes off as whining. But overall what he says here is on target. Morale is at an all time low and the blogs do work as a release and a sign of hope for many workers. DeKalb needs change and it needs to come fast.

Beverly Fraud

February 16th, 2013
5:12 pm

The AJC investigations *were not* the result of anonymous poster’s tips: the reporters who worked on the cheating scandal had exposed other failings of the Hall administration, most notably the E-Rate scandal and the graduation rates/missing drop-outs articles(well before this blog existed).

@Chris, can you say with 100% certainty that blog postings, tips to reporters, “off the record” conversations and emails with reporters had nothing to do with the AJC’s decision to continue Paul Donsky’s groundbreaking work back in 2001?

Unless you can (to take a page from your handbook) definitively show us that people who blogged, posted, and spoke to reporters off the record had zero influence it’s not unreasonable to assume they do have at least some influence.

Beverly Fraud

February 16th, 2013
5:30 pm

@Chris Murphy a definitive example of how the blogsphere has made a difference.

Back when the ClayCo board was in the news, there was a pointed emphasis on the so-called “MACE affiliated” members of the board. (Strangely enough the majority of the board was “GAE affiliated” but the AJC ignored that.)

What they also ignored was that a GAE affiliated board member used his influence to get a law enforcement official a nice gig as a “bodyguard” for the Superintendent. Unfortunately this official was under investigation for inappropriate actions with minors.

It was shortly after this issue was repeatedly brought up on the old Clayton County blog, that some other ClayCo blogs brought it up and eventually (if memory serves) a local rag started asking questions and eventually the AJC did as well and the guy resigned.

Because of the blogsphere, because anonymous bloggers brought heat to the AJC (despite the anti-MACE slant in the AJC it became impossible to ignore after other media picked up the story from the blogsphere) a possible child sexual predator was removed from a position where he might possibly have had access to children in a school setting.

A definitive example of how anonymous bloggers made a positive difference.

Sure a lot of bloggers spew hot air, and add nothing to the debate; don’t doubt that. But also don’t doubt it can help shine at least some sunlight. Come to think of it, yet another example:

Remember the $73k “secretarial position” that Maureen helped expose in DCSS? Didn’t that start as an (correct me if I’m wrong Maureen) off the record tip in an email to Maureen, knowing full well she had a blog to give it traction?

Beverly Fraud

February 16th, 2013
5:36 pm

Those who claim that would have to show me that they have ever- *ever*- confronted their particular powers-that-be on *anything.*

@Chris you don’t recall the hundreds of teachers who suddenly lost their contracts after testifying in the APS cheating scandal? And when it became public, per the AJC how many of them became suddenly restored?

DeKalb Inside Out

February 16th, 2013
5:40 pm

Schutten said
“We all bear responsibility.”

Is that right? Heads up all teachers, parents and students. If you weren’t aware, each and every one of you are partly responsible for DCSD’s problems. If somebody says “No one is to blame” or “Everyone is to blame”, that person is usually the one to blame.

Private Citizen

February 16th, 2013
5:58 pm

Everybody knows to keep your name out of internet opinion posts, as that stuff is there forever and routinely now for hiring, a search of internet activity is done. Anyone who is telling you to post under your real name is either very naive or is giving bad advice on a known subject. Maybe there is room for a tenured professor of independently wealthy person who has no formal job needs, or else people with real name with their mostly useless gently tea-time commentaries. But anyone, it is pretty well know out there that for regular people to keep your name off casual internet, and for a school teacher required to be a “role model for the community according to community standards” it is completely off the map to advocate posting opinion with name. Ever heard about the Georgia teacher who was fired for posting a photo on personal Facebook of holding up a beer stein while on vacation in another country? Georgia schools are low performing and backwards because Georgia professional teachers not only have no power, they have a deficit of power and are forced to endure harassment rituals in the workplace. Despite whatever hoke-um people say about unions, I’d take a real single professional union with real power to shape the work place any day of the week. For example, enough power to not have to work under people with distance learning “leadership” degrees that are then bosses and tell educated teachers what to do and evaluate them and are paid double what teachers earn. Just today some citizen was telling me “there is so much corruption on government it will never change.” Swell, huh? A real problem solver that person is, huh? With friends like that, school teachers don’t even need enemies. I ran into one of my former students today (now an adult). Told me he is doing well and I did well for him, that I am a good guy, and there was never any trouble in my class and they did their work. So, with a reference like that why am I harassed by a school district admin., stalked by them, and put in writing I need retraining? School districts are run by criminals. They’re deeply rooted, well paid, and not regulated. And when I taught this student, I worked under a really great principal that the student and I both agreed was a #1 great person. Well, the school district ran this principal off and now they work in another state. But that cabal of control-freak highly paid busy-bodies are still pulling their $100k salaries from the tax base. And I thought of another person, good talent, who got brick-walled by the same bunch. Once this person saw they could get nowhere by not being part of their criminal gang, he applied to a very wealthy district in another state. They interviewed 50 people and hired him, he’s now a principal with good job and stability. The first thing he told me over the phone is “Private Citizen, the way it is done in Georgia is NOT how it is done elsewhere.” Bottom line is that there is no one at home at the state level. It’s an empty nest. In another state, the AGs office would clean a lot of this out. In Georgia, the AG is a private law firm to represent select parties. Don’t believe me? Just call up the Georgia AG and ask them what the do. They don’t regulate anything or investigate anything and they’ll tell you so, too. How can DeKalb be hundreds of millions of dollars off the mark and the state regulation is a cuckoo clock with a note on the door “Nobody home.” And then they subcontract their regulation to

Prof

February 16th, 2013
6:00 pm

@ Chris Murphy. Perhaps some of the anonymous bloggers here HAVE “confronted their particular powers-that-be,” and thus know quite well what can happen. I certainly have… writing publicly on an education blog is not worth going through that again.

Prof

February 16th, 2013
7:22 pm

@ William Casey. I think the point is that right NOW there is no cost to you in signing your real name to whatever you post here because you are retired. Your actions in speaking up as Dean 20 years ago were admirable, but were for the specific, justifiable reason that cheating was going on at your school. Signing one’s name to a blog post today is not the same sort of action, and is general and diffuse. Simply put, you had power then, but the blogger here does not now. And Private Citizen’s point is a good one: nothing really dies once it’s put on Internet.

David Schutten

February 16th, 2013
8:07 pm

Please do not confuse my not taking seriously the criticisms if anonymous bloggers with being thin skinned. I simply do not take the anonymous criticism of anyone seriously. If people with whom I worked 25-30 years ago are able to track me down, certainly anyone in DeKalb who disagrees with me can call or e-mail me to chat. DCSS employees, parents and stakeholders do it several times every week. Most decision makers do not even read anonymous blog posts, let alone take them seriously. I will not dispute the fact Dr. Trotter blogs with his real name. However, his base is in another county, and he has few working relationships established with the people in DeKalb who make decisions. In a state in which public school employees are barred from entering into Collective Bargaining agreements, relationships matter. I guess that is why so many non-members and former members of ODE/GAE/NEA contact us when they have to report to Internal Affairs. Of course I understand why employees are afraid to use their real names. But I have never been afraid, and it is why I received a Letter of Redirection 20 years ago when I first came to DeKalb and refused to allow a suspended student on a field trip. Dr. Trotter is correct, discipline is major issue. The media makes it more challenging when any parent is able to get on front of a TV camera with a false accusation without the media verifying the veracity of the accusation. One of GAE’s biggest victories was successfully changing the law so that a public school employee accused of wrong doing has a hearing in front of a Superior Court Judge. How many of you remember the days when a someone could make a false accusation against a teacher or other emoyee and obtain an arrest warrant with no proof to back up the allegation.

Society has changed since DeKalb was one of the best school systems in the country. DeKalb has failed to adapt to the changes. The emphasis on promoting within “The Friends and Family Network” that was acceptable overcthe last two decade instead of promoting the best candidate for the job has only accelerated DeKalb’s descent.

The bottom line remains: If you are not working to improve the educational experience of the 99,000 students, you are a willing participant in the ongoing problem. If you value your opinion, contact me directly.

PSDad

February 17th, 2013
12:03 am

My children attend schools within DCSS. I can send my children to private schools. I choose to send them to public school. I post anonymously to protect them. When I chose to post publicly, it will mean that I have lost faith in the ability of our government to educate my children. My children are fortunate to live within a community that supports its public schools. We will be fine and I could remain quite, but all of our children deserve so much more. For David Schutten to suggest that my (our) criticism of the BOE and DCSS leaders translates into “hoping leaders, teachers, and students will fail” is the purest example of the nasty, self-serving, political bile that has infected our education system. I don’t know who Mr. Schutten is catering to with that statement, but I wonder if our teachers could be better served by a different representative.

Beverly Fraud

February 17th, 2013
4:30 am

“I simply do not take the anonymous criticism of anyone seriously.”

@David, that’s a classic red herring and you know it, because you won’t address criticism of people who do give their name.

You’ve been hiding behind this “anonymous blogger” meme, by dodging the issue of how you can fully represent the best interest of teachers when you also have to represent the best interest of administrators who are abusive to them.

In other words you have to defend the abusive actions of administrators appointed not on merit, but “arbitrarily and capriciously” (your words) This is an inherent conflict of interest; in that you can’t fully represent the best interest of the teacher aggrieved while at the same time represent the best interests of the management.

Example: if a teacher was fired unfairly, and the principal who did it deserves sanction how are you going to fully advocate for justice for the teacher (rehire and sanction for the principal so he/she knows not to try it again) while at the same time try to protect the best interests of the principal not to have a sanction on record?

Can’t be done without compromising the best interest of at least one of the people you represent.

Maybe you thought you could dodge by hiding behind the “anonymous blogger” meme, but now that Dr. John Trotter has come to this blog and pointed this out, what is now your excuse for not addressing it?

In short, your bluff has been called.

Beverly Fraud

February 17th, 2013
4:35 am

I will not dispute the fact Dr. Trotter blogs with his real name.

No you don’t David; you just avoid discussing what others before him have pointed out. Despite your claim of “working relationships” you organization has a built in conflict of interest in that you support teachers and the administrators who violate their legal rights.

How you you fully support both a question I’m sure you are now more than willing to address, since a “name” brought it up.

Beverly Fraud

February 17th, 2013
4:43 am

Please do not confuse my not taking seriously the criticisms if anonymous bloggers with being thin skinned.

Gee David, wonder how people got confused? Wouldn’t have anything to do with your retort that these bloggers stop hiding behind their white robes would it?

Beverly Fraud

February 17th, 2013
7:11 am

By the way do we have any conclusive evidence that those who post anonymously are more factually incorrect that officials such as Crawford Lewis, Beverly Hall, Kathy Augustine, Pat Pope, Cheryl Atkinson and others who have had their real names attached to their statements?

William Casey

February 17th, 2013
7:40 am

@PRIVATE CITIZEN:

February 16th, 2013
5:58 pm

“Everybody knows to keep your name out of internet opinion posts, as that stuff is there forever and routinely now for hiring, a search of internet activity is done. Anyone who is telling you to post under your real name is either very naive or is giving bad advice on a known subject.”

That’s the point. My words are posted forever. I’m proud of them. My son and my friends can read them. Down the road, if I’m wrong about something, I make it right and/or apologize. If I post something stupid, God and everyone will know it. If I have an ax to grind, everyone will know it. If it was good enough for John Hancock, it’s good enough for me.

I’m not going to win this one. I appreciate Maureen’s work and still read her articles but have seriously reduce the time I spend posting here. I’ve quit getting into sports arguments in bars as well. So life goes.

AlreadySheared

February 17th, 2013
9:59 am

@WC,
I salute you for your public stand on academic integrity, and I am glad that its consequences were bearable, and even positive, rather than disastrous for you.

That said, since you have requested my “excuse”, I will reiterate: “If you haven’t noticed the muliple reports of capricious, unprofessional, and petty political acts of retaliation and retribution reported in this [education-centered] blog, then you haven’t been paying attention.
”

@Beverly,
Your comment above raises an interesting question: does the discounting of anonymous opinions constitute a sort of ad hominem attack on same? Certainly, when proferring damaging accusations based on personal experience, anonymity discredits the accuser.

However, when an anonymous blogger offers an analysis/opinion on a public question, I think the offering should stand on its own merits, and not on whether the analysis is ’signed’.

Chris Murphy

February 17th, 2013
10:24 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/nyregion/online-battle-over-ancient-scrolls-spawns-real-world-consequences.html?ref=nyregion&_r=0

Beverly Fraud

February 17th, 2013
11:23 am

@Beverly,
Your comment above raises an interesting question: does the discounting of anonymous opinions constitute a sort of ad hominem attack on same? Certainly, when proferring damaging accusations based on personal experience, anonymity discredits the accuser.

My point exactly

Beverly Fraud

February 17th, 2013
11:26 am

@Chris this is clearly not just a case of an anon blogger; it’s a case of someone pretending to be someone else.

It’s comparing apples to red herrings.

Prof

February 17th, 2013
11:49 am

@ Chris Murphy. I’ve read your link to the NY Times article, and don’t see how it relates to the present issue of whether bloggers should use anonymous pseudonyms on “Get Schooled.”

It does illustrate how nasty and petty academic scholars can become, rather like courtiers in the Italian Renaissance. The son of a scholar on ancient Gnostic manuscripts felt that his father was slighted by another such scholar with different theories about the manuscripts; and so he created “sock puppets” on various blogs that he also created, attacking the second scholar and creating the impression that a group of academics supported the ideas of the first scholar. This extended to a general scholarly war on those young academics who supported the second scholar. Rather like the poisonings of the Borgias.

But if Maureen is going to register bloggers’ pseudonyms under their IP addresses, then how could these sock puppets be created, anonymous or named? I assume that she won’t allow one IP address to register numerous pseudonyms, or otherwise what’s the point of the registration?

David Schutten

February 17th, 2013
12:14 pm

@Beverly Fraud
Administrators represent less than 5% of ODE/GAE/NEA members. We always provide representation first to the teacher or other employee rather than administrator or supervisor. The fact remains, that other organizations very rarely if ever provide in person representation when employees are called to the Office of Internal Affairs or Area Superintendent’s office. Just ask the teacher who called his organization that does not represent administrators last week and was told they weren’t able to send someone to OIA for his meeting there. The silence and invisibility of the other organization is deafening. (Frequent picketing that translates to little if any change does not count as effective visibility and advocacy.)

Beverly Fraud

February 17th, 2013
12:50 pm

@David, well fair is fair; can no longer say you won’t address the issue of conflict of interest. Though you say 5%, one can’t help but wonder if the 5% have an outsized influence (as they do have more power than the average teacher) Perhaps some teachers will share their experiences here as to whether or not they ever felt “compromised” in representation.

I’ll let “the other organization” address the particulars of the rest of your post, as I have no first hand knowledge of the example you cite (but I suspect overall, they would strongly take issue with the claim they “rarely” provide in person representation to those having to deal with OIR or Area Superintendents)

I do know (because I read it on this blog, and it would be waaay to easy to refute if it weren’t true) that “the other organization” was indeed representing a member when (as they allege) State Senator Ronald Ramsey illegally shut down a grievance hearing. One might say it’s past the time to work in “spirit of cooperation” with DCSS when officials seem willing to openly violate state law.

Perhaps teachers as a whole would be wise, really wise to develop a “fighting mindset” because on way too many fronts, they can be rightly described as being under assault.

Be that as it may, one can’t say you didn’t address the issue. Now if Michael Thurmond will answer some questions, we may be on to something…not holding my breath though.

Dekalbite@David

February 17th, 2013
1:18 pm

“Within one year ODE experienced a dramatic 45% membership growth. Membership has grown steadily for the past seven years. Today we represent approximately 1,700 DeKalb County School System employees including teachers, paraprofessionals, custodians, bus drivers, secretaries, cafeteria workers and administrators. We are now the largest local teachers’ organization in Georgia. We are the Leading Voice for Public Education in DeKalb County, Advocating Excellence in DeKalb Public Schools.”
http://www.odegaenea.org/html/about.html

The AJC quoted your organization as saying teachers did not want outsourcing of custodial personnel. Outsourcing was taken off the table even teachers class sizes increased (poor outcome for students) and teacher compensation was cut (also negative for students since attracting and retaining good teachers is the single most important factor in students achievement). IMHO – Looking at the umbrella of represented employees it is easy to see how cutting, consolidating and outsourcing in the non teaching end is so difficult. The AJC let you speak for teachers and Ramona Tyson got cover as she really didn’t like cutting, consolidating and outsourcing anyway.

Dekalbite

February 17th, 2013
3:41 pm

Are all comments on moderation?

Lee

February 17th, 2013
5:31 pm

Oh good grief, its a freakin’ blog. Doesn’t matter if you use a proper name or “The Wizard of Oz”. We’ve got some trolls, some folks looking for a little back and forth banter, and a few who take themselves waayyy to seriously.

As a general rule, I believe about 1/2 of what I see and about 1/10th of what I read or told. That includes the news media, which gets it wrong far more often than people realize.

To paraphrase Paul Harvey, there is always “the rest of the story.”

dekalbite@David

February 17th, 2013
5:41 pm

This is from the ODE website:
“At one point ODE membership dwindled to 25 brave souls. ….Today we represent approximately 1,700 DeKalb County School System employees including teachers, paraprofessionals, custodians, bus drivers, secretaries, cafeteria workers and administrators. We are now the largest local teachers’ organization in Georgia.”

When Ms. Tyson considered outsourcing some custodial care, the AJC quoted that teachers did not want that solution. The quote came from ODE, not from teachers yet it was stated as if it came from teachers. Instead teacher attrition was allowed to leave teaching positions unfilled, and that meant class sizes increased for teachers (NOT good for students) and there were more furlough days for teachers.

It seems that with so many non teaching positions represented, ODE endorsement of cutting, consolidating and outsourcing those non teaching positions would prove problematic to your organization.

Did you originally represent teachers and then added all these other non teaching positions?

Married with (School) Children

February 17th, 2013
7:05 pm

David Schutten @February 16th, 2013 8:07 pm – “Most decision makers do not even read anonymous blog posts, let alone take them seriously.”

How’s that working out for you & DCS?

Jane Doe

February 17th, 2013
7:07 pm

No, my real name is not Jane Doe. Surprised? I have been a DeKalb educator for many years. I know exactly what happens to employees in DCSD when they speak the truth.

I begin my first blog entry with a question. How did Michael Thurmond get hired as interim superintendent? I, too, am concerned about his lack of experience in the field of education. Otherwise, his credentials seem to be okay. However, the fact that his biggest plus is that he is a friend of Dr. Walker disturbs me greatly. One of the requirements of SACS is that the board cease their bad habit of hiring with nepotism and cronyism in the forefront. So, not only are they unable to come to an agreement over simple decisions as who will become the board chairperson, but also, they are unable to follow the other requirements put forth by SACS. No wonder Thurmond supports retention of the board. He is making a lovely salary in his retirement that he will invest wisely for his second retirement. Too bad DeKalb educators have no retirement to live on, unless they are married. DeKalb teachers will look forward to another year of furlough days, lower salaries, and paying for favorite employees to get their doctorates.

Private Citizen

February 17th, 2013
7:08 pm

I think the posting identity thing is a personal decision. I still remember back is around 2003 when the mood was wound up so tight, if you had an opinion at work, your were toast, you were questionable goods. I still thing for someone working in the workplace who does not own their own business, etc. posting with name is big trouble, but like I said, it is a personal decision. As far as IP addresses and the like, like the rest of the modern world that feels the call to safely use the internet, I will likely use a paid VPN service to route my internet activity. The one utility advantage I see of registered proper email is to receive notification or communication. It has occurred to me that a threaded discussion would be nice, or email notification of someone replying to you, but it is not for me to question and seems there is a lot of good communication occurring. W. Casey, I like your pioneer spirit, I also know that any job available from hardware store worker up to government services means that someone in HR will do a search for your internet activity, check your credit record, criminal background check, physical test for drug testing and who knows what else. Of these, doing the web search is the only one that does not cost money, you can be assured it is a part of hiring. Oh pity for that to be such a determinative thing.

On a different note, can anyone confirm, are they removing health-insurance supplementing from Georgia TRS retirement?

Private Citizen

February 17th, 2013
7:20 pm

I seem to recall Salman Rushdie getting recrimination for something he wrote, threats on his life, dissolution of marriage due to having to leave home and live in safe houses. I know at least one academic author who had to move his residence because of threats (from persons entirely unrelated to him) due to something he published. I am not saying weblog posts are such serious business, but there is ample recent example of authors getting serious blow-back due to what they publish.

And in the USA, there is always the concern of the “no fly list.” Real neat thing, that. When a person is on it, they are stopped from flying and then told “we can not tell you why you are on the no fly list.” According to reports, this is mostly affecting Arab peoples, and in at least one example used as a dirty trick to allow the person, an academic, to leave the country for an academic conference, and then prohibiting their return. Sure hope they didn’t have any pets at home. It is really shameful and needs to stop. Obama should step to the plate and clean it up, this big-power with no-due-process. People should take an interest. “Man Banned Mid-Trip by No-Fly List Gets Stranded in Hawaii” http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/10/left-behind-by-no-fly-list/

Private Citizen

February 17th, 2013
7:32 pm

Check out this name from the first page of the “no fly list” and the behavior categorization chart. And this disclaimer, ha! The data (”the Data”) displayed herein is provided “as is” with no warranty whatsoever, neither express nor implied, and no claims are made regarding its accuracy, veracity, or suitability. http://www.no-fly-list.com/details/Ammar_Aarts

Be nice if you could put such a disclaimer on your work! Maybe they need to port some of that TKES/LKES over to the TSA !

Private Citizen

February 17th, 2013
7:37 pm

The TSA is an independent, non-government organization and is in no way affiliated with any branch of any government, corporation, individual or other entity

Just like AdvancED / SACS!

Private Citizen

February 17th, 2013
7:47 pm

Maybe AdvancED is a little smarter than the TSA. http://postimage.org/image/41tb8yddn/

Hero Not Zero

February 18th, 2013
3:05 pm

Just a few juicy details from Teachers could easily change things around in Dekalb County Schools. Unfortunately, Dekalb County School Employees are contracted by Law not to communicate with the Press concerning Dekalb County Schools. Therefore, the Public is completely uninformed about the Failings of Dekalb County Schools to support their Students and Teachers, and High Level Bureaucrats are left alone to Profit and Pillage! Case in Point: Teachers who were making $40,000.00 a year Since 2006 are working with a $2,500.00 a year pay cut, and are now making $37,500.00 a year for the past two years. Both the new and the old Superintendent are making $275,000.00 a year with a $750.00 a month car allowance, and a $2,600.00 a month expense account. This is criminal when teachers are reaching into their pockets for students in order to provide Pencils, Notebook paper, Hand Soap, and Teaching materials. Custodians around the County buy their own Cleaning Solution to mop School Floors. Where is the Humanity and the Logic, instead of the Greed!!!!!

Dr. John Trotter

February 18th, 2013
5:59 pm

@ David Shutten: Let me clear up few matters…since I have been out of pocket for a few days. (My father is seriously ill in the hospital.) First of all, you have no idea of the relationships that Norreese Haynes and I and others on the MACE Staff have with the Central Office in DeKalb. No idea. We have been working with the Central Office staff there for years. We have filed, no doubt in my mind, perhaps hundreds of more grievances for teachers in DeKalb over the last 18 years than ODE has filed. We have represented hundreds of teachers in hearings, but what is more telling is the fact that so many of our cases are worked out today before the hearings. This is telling. People don’t just give you stuff because they like you; it is because they respect you and have a healthy fear for what you do and are willing to do. And let me hasten to say that what we do is legal, but it sometimes is quite onerous to administrators.

As far as picketing goes, how would you know how effective it is since I can’t remember ODE ever picketing a principal? Heck, the principal in all likelihood is an ODE member. Five percent? I should say so because administrators certainly hardly ever represent more than five percent of the total staff. And, I believe that ODE represents everyone…from the custodian to the superintendent. Total conflict of interest. Incredible. David, I know because I worked at GAE for six years. I know firsthand about the conflict of interest. This is why when MACE was founded, it was founded only to represent the classroom educators.

About what county MACE hails from? David, the MACE corporate office has been located in Fayette County for nearly 11 years. But, the membership of MACE stretches from the Tennessee border to the Florida border and from the Alabama border to the South Carolina border. You know nothing about the membership of MACE because the MACE membership is strictly confidential. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It was MACE which was on the street in front of the DeKalb Central Office picketing about “systematic cheating” and claiming that DeKalb was “a Gangsta System” while you guys were playing footsy with the Crawford Lewis Administration.

David, I would advise you to not to try to address MACE matters until you become familiar with some facts. The Crawford Lewis Administration tried to “ban” me from the school system and I think that it was responsible for trying to “ban” me from another public institution where Lewis was giving a speech. Usually the powers-to-be don’t try to “ban” someone if they are not afraid of that person. David, I don’t think anyone has ever accused me of being some administrative lackey.

Dr. John Trotter

February 18th, 2013
6:01 pm

@ David Shutten: Let me clear up few matters…since I have been out of pocket for a few days. (My father is seriously ill in the hospital.) First of all, you have no idea of the relationships that Norreese Haynes and I and others on the MACE Staff have with the Central Office in DeKalb. No idea. We have been working with the Central Office staff there for years. We have filed, no doubt in my mind, perhaps hundreds of more grievances for teachers in DeKalb over the last 18 years than ODE has filed. We have represented hundreds of teachers in hearings, but what is more telling is the fact that so many of our cases are worked out today before the hearings. This is telling. People don’t just give you stuff because they like you; it is because they respect you and have a healthy fear for what you do and are willing to do. And let me hasten to say that what we do is legal, but it sometimes is quite onerous to administrators.

As far as picketing goes, how would you know how effective it is since I can’t remember ODE ever picketing a principal? Heck, the principal in all likelihood is an ODE member. Five percent? I should say so because administrators certainly hardly ever represent more than five percent of the total staff. And, I believe that ODE represents everyone…from the custodian to the superintendent. Total conflict of interest. Incredible. David, I know because I worked at GAE for six years. I know firsthand about the conflict of interest. This is why when MACE was founded, it was founded only to represent the classroom educators.

About what county MACE hails from? David, the MACE corporate office has been located in Fayette County for nearly 11 years. But, the membership of MACE stretches from the Tennessee border to the Florida border and from the Alabama border to the South Carolina border. You know nothing about the membership of MACE because the MACE membership is strictly confidential. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It was MACE which was on the street in front of the DeKalb Central Office picketing about “systematic cheating” and claiming that DeKalb was “a Gangsta System” while you guys were playing footsy with the Crawford Lewis Administration.

David, I would advise you to not to try to address MACE matters until you become familiar with some facts. The Crawford Lewis Administration tried to “ban” me from the school system and I think that it was responsible for trying to “ban” me from another public institution where Lewis was giving a speech. Usually the powers-to-be don’t try to “ban” someone if they are not afraid of that person. David, I don’t think anyone has ever accused me of being some administrative lackey.

You can got to MACE’s website and compared it to the ODE-GAE website and see the difference in what each organization stands for.

Joan Nelson Hood, Atlanta,GA

February 19th, 2013
12:16 am

One day, in the very near future, we will begin to realize that no matter how many times we change superintendants and school board members, the problems that plague our PUBLIC schools are ones involving society, socio-economics, and morality. If all schools were successful and produced great test scores and successful students, any superintendant’s position would be secure.
Depending on the community where the school is located, the problems will be either great or small. In some schools, low test scores are often blamed on teachers when they should be blamed on weak or ineffective parenting. Too many parents today provide little to no support in their children’s education. In some cases, the children themselves display little effort and accountability for their own learning. When will everybody see the light? Acquiring a good education in public schools does not always involve how much money is spent for what a child or a school needs!! If this were the case, many of us from the 60s and 70s, who often learned from inferior or outdated books, would not have graduated fron high school, college, law school, or medical school. We had something to prove: to ourselves, to our parents, and to society! Something has certainly changed!!
For example,there are many new, fabulous, and state-of-the-art schools in neighborhoods in southwest Atlanta, an area where 60% (or more) of the households are considered middle class. Parents who can afford to do so, enroll their children in private schools, charter schools, or schools on the northside of town. And, to be honest, I can’t say that I blame them. Some of the behaviors that take place in schools are totally out of control. The problem stems from the fact that a major housing project was closed in northwest Atlanta and the people from this location were moved to brand new apartments in the area of this school. A school that at one time flourished now hardly ever makes adequate scores on major state assessments. Although there are obviously exceptions, many of the children who have been transplanted from the culture of housing projects to one of a quiet suburb have problems adjusting. In most cases, so do their parents.There are fights almost every day, sometimes more. Many of the children have difficulty acclimating to the calm and more controlled environment of the suburbs.Some need mental health counseling, some need conflict resolution lessons, at the least, anger management classes. Many who come from the housing projects (or Section 8 housing) of the 21st century are not the same children who came from the housing projects of the 60s and 70s. No, they are not like Thelma, JJ, and Michael Evans of Good Times who had parents that supported them in their educational endeavors!! Many of these children, if allowed, can actually disrupt the nucleus of a school. They step from their buses angry. They are consistently placed in ISS (in-school suspension) or OSS (out-of school suspension). Some are placed in handcuffs by the campus police officer because they refuse to obey and respect him. There are too many people today who have a litany of excuses for children who come to school with behavior problems and other more serious issues that impact their ability to learn. They seem not to realize that there are actually other students who want to learn. Many more subdued students are being robbed of valuable class time due to the negative behavior of some of their classmates.
As a retired teacher with 32+ years of experience, I can see why teachers today are forced to take mental health/sick leave days. Critics of public schools should visit a few. That way, they would see that teaching some of the students in the classrooms of the 21st century is a very daunting task!
AlthoughThurmond is a smart man and has a proven track record of his successes, it doesn’t matter a hill of beans who occupies the not so coveted positions of superintendant or school board member.

Private Citizen

February 19th, 2013
5:15 am

Dr. Trotter, You must admit that your methods are unconventional and unique, even artistic. Pardon me for generalising, but one thing I enjoy in Georgia are some of the hard get-it-done characters, who are very very few, but know how to apprise a situation and have a strong demand for honesty. It is really a survivalist mindset, what to do when the flood comes, the quick effective answers to save lives, so to speak. Good luck with your dad.

Private Citizen

February 19th, 2013
5:22 am

Hero Not Zero, Completely excellent job showing the proxy of executive compensation compared with teacher and custodian pay, combined with teachers and custodians (that’s new) using their own money to buy supplies. I’m really at a loss how this executive compensation thing got going. It started with big corporate salaries, and now government managers shamelessly are doing the same thing, where they executive is paid a multiplier of the worker salary. With those extras, it sounds like each month the superintendent is paid pretty close to the annual salary of a teacher. I’m really left at a loss over this, how to reverse engineer it or affect positive change, so to speak. I know this, it makes it where I do not want to work in such an environment. The effect is managers parade around like royalty based solely on difference in income. I’ve seen too much of this. It does not lead to working together. It is a caste system.

Private Citizen

February 19th, 2013
5:33 am

Joan Nelson Hood, My experience with hood rats is that (at the risk of generalising) generally have no concept of private property. For example, to many successful people, how ownership is a basic and early priority in life, a goal to work for and to work extra for. Career renters do not have this goal. It is almost like I can divide up my friends based on “property owner” and “non property owner.” It is just a wholly different mindset.

Beverly Fraud

February 19th, 2013
7:37 am

“We have represented hundreds of teachers in hearings, but what is more telling is the fact that so many of our cases are worked out today before the hearings. This is telling. People don’t just give you stuff because they like you; it is because they respect you and have a healthy fear for what you do and are willing to do.”

Kind of had the feeling Dr. Trotter would (rightly) weigh in. I will also tell you what is very telling (teachers can confirm). Administrators will often bring in PAGE to speak, often bring in GAE to speak; almost never mention MACE.

Kind of like Truett Cathy referring people to the USDA on the Chick-fil-A website, but PETA-not so much LOL

Dr. John Trotter

February 19th, 2013
2:43 pm

Thank you, Private Citizen…and you too, Beverly Fraud.

The task facing Michael Thurmond: Save the system from taking a nose dive

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The task facing Michael Thurmond: Save the system from taking a nose dive

167 comments Add your comment

About Get Schooled

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Recent Posts

Archives

More from the AJC

Are You or Your School the ‘Best In Class’?

Categories

College resources

All AJC blogs »

Tell us what you think about the site

Subscribe »

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