More HOPE to go around this year because fewer students earned it in the first place. Time to consider need-based HOPE?
AJC reporter Laura Diamond is reporting that the slight rise in HOPE payouts this year is a result of fewer Georgia students receiving the scholarship as a result of state lawmakers making the award harder to earn and harder to keep.
I stand nearly alone on this issue here on the blog, but still contend that Georgia has to consider a need component to HOPE. On a personal level, I would love to see HOPE remain fully merit-based as I have twins who will be college bound in 2017.
But on a public policy level, I understand that Georgia must produce many more college graduates to remain economically competitive. And that means finding ways to prod more teens to consider going to college by making it economically feasible for them. (Research shows that finances play a significant role in preventing qualified kids from attending college.)
As it stands now, HOPE has a greater influence on where kids go to college rather than whether they go. Every economic forecast says that Georgia will not prosper without a surge in its college-educated population. You don’t get more college graduates by making it costlier to attend college.
Diamond writes in the AJC today:
Gov. Nathan Deal has touted good news for the HOPE scholarship — a proposal for higher award payouts and extra money for technical college students who study subjects in fields with worker shortages.
What isn’t being discussed is why Georgia can afford this. It’s because fewer students have HOPE.
During the 2011 fiscal year, 256,417 students received some form of the scholarship. A year later 202,906 students got it, according to the Georgia Student Finance Commission, which administers the program.
“I expect to see another decrease this year,” said Tim Connell, president of the agency. “And while we may see it rebound slightly, I don’t know if we will see those large numbers again.”
In some ways this was the goal when Deal and lawmakers from both parties overhauled the popular lottery-funded program in 2011. HOPE was on track to run out of money this year before lawmakers made changes to the program, such as reducing award payouts and tightening eligibility criteria to decrease the number of recipients.
Deal’s proposal is possible because of a strong year for the Georgia Lottery, which provided about $55 million more for HOPE and pre-k programs. The other driver is a drop in expenses because fewer students qualify, Connell said.
The largest declines are with the HOPE Grant, which is mainly used by students in the Technical College System of Georgia. In 2011, 141,887 students received the grant. There were 98,790 recipients in 2012. Only 81,008 are projected to get it this fiscal year — a 43 percent drop in two years.
Nearly 9,000 students lost the award because they were unable to maintain a 3.0 grade-point average, a new rule lawmakers set when they overhauled the program. That requirement was already in place for students in the University System of Georgia.
Some students dropped out or didn’t enroll because they couldn’t afford to pay what HOPE no longer covered, said Ron Jackson, the commissioner of the Technical College System. At the same time, the system’s enrollment dropped by about 24,500 students to 170,860 last year.
Jackson described the change as “stunning and unexpected.” But he said the scholarship remains a good deal and that lawmakers had to overhaul the program to keep it going. “I think we need time to see how our students adjust beyond this first year,” he said. “Our students may have to adjust to covering a gap.”
Deal shared his concerns about the drop-off with Jackson, said Brian Robinson, the governor’s spokesman. Robinson said the state needs to understand why this occurred and “develop an action plan if the study shows a need for it.”
Others say an action plan is needed now. Democrats filed House Bill 54 and Senate Bill 59 to return the eligibility requirement for the HOPE grant to a 2.0 GPA. While the bills have some support from GOP lawmakers, Deal has so far refused to undo the changes made to the program.
Sen. Jason Carter, D-Decatur, said the state’s economic health depends on the HOPE grant. Beyond harming students, the tighter requirements will leave businesses with fewer employees to hire and could make it harder for the state to attract businesses, he said. “To pretend this is a successful program is like pouring salt on the economic wound,” said Carter, who sponsored SB 59.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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130 comments Add your comment
skipper
January 24th, 2013
11:16 am
Maureen,
Need based is not workable. Why should a bright kid suffer because there parents are reasonably well off? I personally know more than a few who, despite the fact that their parents are doing well, will get no secondary education help from them at all. If you do the work, make the grades, etc., then you should be eligible…………parents, believ it or not, often say “That’s it” after high-school graduation.
nypeach
January 24th, 2013
11:23 am
HOPE is not an entitlement, it is a wonderful gift for students who meet the requirements. If a segment of the population has trouble meeting the requirements, then it’s time to look at the quality of education they are getting in high school. Don’t do me and mine any favors by lowering the standards. And yes, I am black AND hispanic.
Really amazed
January 24th, 2013
11:33 am
WOW!! Possibly lowering the requirements to a 2.0 GPA. Grade inflate in high school just to lower the standard for HOPE to have to lower the standard anyway!!! Keep giving out hand outs to those that refuse to do the work instead of those whom have worked hard to truly deserve it!! We wonder why our country is in the situation it is in??????
Hall Mom
January 24th, 2013
11:35 am
Love the idea of weighting the grant based on where there are worker shortages.
Students need to demonstrate that they are serious about their studies to keep HOPE. If they are not ready, let’s not throw away the funds that could help another student.
Perhaps it’s time for the 3rd tier of HOPE, one that applies to the non-traditional college student, who perhaps decides he is ready later, or who needs to continue working while he attends college. This could also help transition workers to what is currently needed if they are out of date.
Beverly Fraud
January 24th, 2013
11:35 am
@Maureen, any truth to the rumor that some parents are legally changing the name of their graduating seniors to Chip Rogers in hopes (no pun intended) of greater HOPE funding?
Rhaegar Targaryen
January 24th, 2013
11:38 am
Why can’t the HOPE Scholarship be both merit-based and need-based?
My solution–
The merit part: Keep the requirement at 3.0
The need-based part: The amount of scholarship will depend on family income. All qualified students will still be HOPE Scholars–that doesn’t change. And all HOPE Scholars will get some money, regardless of income level.
Maybe something like..
Family income–
below $70,000: 100% of in-state tuition
$70,000-$99,999: 75% of in-state tuition
$100,000-$129,999: 50% of in-state tuition
$130,000 or greater: 25% of in-state tuition
All of the above would be HOPE Scholarships. Only the amount is different–based on income.
Attentive Parent/Invisible Serfs Collar
January 24th, 2013
11:41 am
I think Anthony Carnevale’s work is designed to change the nature of college by insisting everyone get the credential. Because everyone is not prepared to do college work, college itself gets redesigned to make the credential accessible anyway. And the real goal to make all educational institutions about changing the nature of human consciousness away from the abstract, rational mind takes place.
When USG Vice-Chancellor Lynne Weisenbach had the ceremony talking about redesigning the USG system in November 2011, she invited the Lumina Foundation for a reason. http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/constructing-an-alternative-vision-of-either-the-natural-or-human-world-as-the-basis-for-a-college-degree/ explains the Lumina Diploma Qualifications Profile. The accreditors are also pushing this DQP reorganization of the nature of higher education.
You cannot be competitive in a global economy when your graduates have not gained productive knowledge or skills. Theorizing about possible futures just does not cut it. Nor does the increased emphasis on the visual instead of the use of language.
The whole internationally competitive argument is designed to sound like a good thing to encourage desired change. But it simply does not survive scrutiny. Anymore than Carnevale’s reports hold up to anyone looking at his footnotes or cites.
It’s just about the accretion of power and money into the compliant higher-ed sector.
jess
January 24th, 2013
11:46 am
There seems to be an all out attack on high performers in every phase of American life. There have been attempts to make HOPE an entitlement based on need since the program began. I only hope that the state keeps at least this one merit based program rather than dumbing it down as we have so many other things.With Washington’s full frontal attack on those who have performed in the work world, it would be refreshing to have this one small thig remain pure.
Beverly Fraud
January 24th, 2013
11:52 am
@Invisible I’m trying to find compelling reasons, reasons that can be defended, that you are completely off your rocker because of the implications of what you assert if it is indeed in true.
Yet to come up with much yet. So do wish someone would challenge you on this blog.
Michael
January 24th, 2013
11:53 am
Can someone explain to me on why Hope only offer the scholarship to those who graduated from High School after the years of 2004 and later. That is just unfair as a Citizen of Georgia.
Panthergirl
January 24th, 2013
11:58 am
I to think that there exists a society interest in increasing the number of college graduates in Georgia;however, I also think that there is a society interest in keeping the best and brightest students in Georgia. Why can’t HOPE be a hybrid system? For incomes above a certain level, HOPE remains as it is. With incomes below a certain level, the requirements for full HOPE decrease. I would like to see the minimum requirement for need-based HOPE to have an ACT/SAT component. There’s too much grade inflation in schools. I would make the test requirement the bare minimum that is commonly thought of to indicate “college readiness” – maybe, 1000 m and cr? I remember years ago reading something to the effect that a large majority of college students who received HOPE who could not manage a 1000 m and cr on the SAT lost HOPE in the first year because they were unable to perform college-level work. Not everyone has the aptitude to succeed in college and paying for them to attend isn’t going to make it so.
Kasee Laster
January 24th, 2013
12:02 pm
RE: Rhaegar Targaryen’s comments earlier: Tennessee has a plan in which both need-based and merit-based components are given out of the same lottery funds. These go by various names – Merit Scholarships, HOPE Scholarship, Aspire award. Aspire, for example, is for students with low family incomes, and the academic requirements (there are some) are less than for the others. The General Assembly Merit Scholarship is based on grades and ACT scoires and to my knowledge does not have an income limit. From what I understand from colleagues in TN, this multi-option system has worked well.
http://www.tn.gov/collegepays/mon_college/lottery_scholars.htm
Merit Based
January 24th, 2013
12:04 pm
It’s time to institute a true merit based component for all HOPE awards. Require a minimum SAT score for HOPE eligibility. This will lessen the impact of grading and rigor disparity. A minimum SAT score will provide an unbiased measure for all HOPE recipients.
Kris
January 24th, 2013
12:05 pm
Rhaegar Targaryen “”Why can’t the HOPE Scholarship be both merit-based and need-based?”
I agree Hope should be need based, with a cap on higher income families, after all most of the lottery tickets are purchased by lower income Families, (sad but true). A dollar here and there is OK but $20 to xxx is wrong..
Colleges should curb tuition expense, a $40K to $ 70K math instruction can teach as well as a $150k phd. College presidents have no use except to approve the pay for consultants to write their 2,4, whatever planes, most of the thinks the old school presidents did it alll the mew ones outsource it. Hire a dummy to kiss babies, shake hands and arses at local town functions.
Kris
January 24th, 2013
12:07 pm
By Crooked deal 2014
John Barge for Governor 2014? Well at least he is educated.
JG
January 24th, 2013
12:08 pm
NO! There are a HUGE number of need-based scholarships and grants available to students already. They are not hard to find either. Keep a need-based requirement completely away from HOPE.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:16 pm
to needs based: no, no, and no. for a red state, Georgia has more than enough social programs.
tighten up the criteria to quality, and require the first two years done at two year schools. that will
go a long way towards solving the problem
Maureen Downey
January 24th, 2013
12:16 pm
@JG, Not sure that is true. Take a look at this Fiscal Research Center study on the lack of need-based aid in Georgia. The study found a large gap in college enrollment by family income, a gap that is increasing. (See link below to read full report.)
The report concludes:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:4okL5F7uq4kJ:www.usg.edu/strategicplan/docs/need_based_aid2008.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiFWy2q-qJ2Nld8NM8gmhF8VXNbd5fUa6aSBkzoyIdSdfT4TNqR08Cs32DYDNq7KmmcX9FcFDHQQOceNXO9_ag63dzWDOvrJVWxoh5xx422DdNIeV79jMCOpDTJ-_SDeB0sjBcv&sig=AHIEtbQjDrS8KmJTt921nBU2stNdYgcHQQ
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:16 pm
the point of HOPE is to educate Georgians, not poor Georgians
williebkind
January 24th, 2013
12:18 pm
“There are a HUGE number of need-based scholarships and grants available to students already.”
I would like a list of those!
What do you call a Harvard graduate with a “C” average? What do you call a Harvard graudate with “A” average? All I have heard is that we need more college graduates but it has fizzled down only to allow mostly upper class(like Maureen’s Kids) to get a college education.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:18 pm
colleges already have a great deal of lattitude towards cost controls for low income scholars.
Understanding Atlanta
January 24th, 2013
12:19 pm
It’s pretty easy to understand what’s going on. There are students who enroll in programs, yes technical programs that do so only to receive financial aid with no intention of completing the course or attempting to do well. What this shows me at least is those people are not being allowed to continue that practice leaving more money for the students that are actually enrolled in courses and putting forth an effort.
This isn’t an entitlement program. I would much rather have a mechanic that was able to demonstrate mastery in his craft – that mastery is shown in their grades. Having a 3.0 should be a minimum for a SCHOLARSHIP. Keyword being SCHOLAR. If you can’t demonstrate you’re being a SCHOLAR why a SCHOLARSHIP? We have to be willing to invest in ourselves whether it’s technical school or a traditional college/university. What happened to “I’m doing this to better me” – that’s why I was willing to take on a few student loans so I could do research during undergrad instead of working. It was an investment in my future that is definitely paying off now.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:20 pm
@ wille
start with georgiacollege411.
there is a bunch of stuff out there, but the recipent has to dig hard for them.
williebkind
January 24th, 2013
12:22 pm
Thanks bootney farnsworth!
Once Again
January 24th, 2013
12:23 pm
It wasn’t sold to the gullible of GA as a WELFARE program. It was sold as a way for anyone to get a subsidy for their education so long as they went to a state school and got a certain GPA.
Now thanks to the “scholarship”, tuitions have risen through the roof (any economics student could have seen that one coming), and thanks to grade inflation tens of thousands of unqualified students went to college, took the money, and flunked out.
Now that grades are maybe a bit less inflated (who really can say with government testing itself on its own failed performance) there are far fewer qualifying for the handout. So now you are asking for the handout to strictly be based on need? What about qualifications??
What exactly is the point of wasting 4 years of someone’s life (along with the space they will take up that could be used by someone more qualified) by sending them to college unqualified and unprepared for the task ahead?
Shoveling money and opportunities at those who hadn’t earned either is how the HOPE program ended up in so much trouble and why nearly every college in the nation has to add additional remedial classes to its offerings every year.
Just Sayin.....
January 24th, 2013
12:24 pm
Just say NO to “needs based” HOPE. There are PLENTY of students who will get no support from the parents. I was one of those students. I got no support from MY parents, and THEY made too much money for me to get any grants. I ended up taking 5 years and working nights to get through college. Do you really want to punish those students?
18/19/20/21 year old students are ADULTS. That their parents might CHOOSE to help them should be of no business of the state. Those adults (parents) are under no requirement to do so, so why do we have a system of financial aid that is given or denied based on a familial adult’s paycheck amount?
achievement in order to obtain HOPE.
Kris
January 24th, 2013
12:26 pm
bootney farnsworth…”"”the point of HOPE is to educate Georgians, not poor Georgians”"”
I disagree!
Hope is there to EDUCATE all Georgians…Not the rich, not the poor, not the ones born with a sliver plated spoon in their #$$ … BUT ALL GEORGIANS. All GEORGIANS stupid and smart. People would be amazed as to what a child can do given the right environment to learn.
If anyone drops their wallet in near the Gold Dome, I’d suggest they kick it to Canton before bending over to pick it up.
Good riddance Crooked deal 2014
John Barge for Governor 2014? Well at least he is educated.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:29 pm
why require two year school attendence for HOPE as Freshman? simple.
-a whole hell of a lot of HOPE scholars are not ready for college. the HOPE loss rate for the first year is much higher than it should be.
-2 year schools not obsessed in making a name for themselves in social engineering :ie, GPC have much lower costs and a better track record overall of responsible money management
-costs are lower in general at schools which don’t have to support major athletic programs
-costs are lower at schools who are not required to devote signifigant time and energy to research.
-most two year schools can be attended while living at home. less costs for student life issues.
-Ph.Ds actually teach at two year schools
-more support for a student in trouble / suporting a return on the State’s investment.
-lower costs to support grounds and infastructure
williebkind
January 24th, 2013
12:30 pm
Maureen Downey
January 24th, 2013
12:16 pm
All you said is good and dandy if family income includes government subsidies and assistants people receive. Some kids get very little because their parents do have a job although they are lower end of the pay scale.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:36 pm
@ willie
many colleges also have individualized programs which they don’t make easily public. the trick, and its a pain in the fanny, is knowing who to ask.
also: many corporations like Coke, AAT, Ga. Pacific have scholarships they don’t make public, but administer through colleges they partner with.
further: this state if flat loaded, and I mean loaded, with demographic specific scholarships: race, gender, intended major, country or origin, ect. if you happen to fit a demographic a college is looking to bolster (gotta have the grades or be able to play football) these things can fall from the sky.
I’ve even heard that some schools out west are offering near full rides to southerners to fill out their diversity quotas.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:38 pm
@ kris
you are welcome to disagree, but you may wish to reread my comment.
but you are correct on one point, I do not support spending money earmarked for college scholars on stupid people who don’t belong there.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:41 pm
another source of scholarships and grants: band, ROTC, the military, ect. if you were involved in outside class activites there is a scholarship somewhere to support/reward it.
Twin Mom
January 24th, 2013
12:41 pm
Although my household makes over 100k a year, I will be sending two children to college at the same time (twins) so I don’t think you can necessarily go on income alone… If that were the case, wouldn’t I “technically” be making only 50k a year?? You see how the line gets blurry…
Might
January 24th, 2013
12:43 pm
Why needs based hope? The middle class is the group needing help with college tuition. Poor students get pell grants. Merit based is the way to go.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:44 pm
a word of warning: most of the best awards come with strings attached. buyer beware.
you’d be amazed how many times kids who went to college on the military’s dime are stunned they actually have to military service to pay it back.
MiltonMan
January 24th, 2013
12:48 pm
How about working and earning the right to attend college??? I did it & my son is doing it while at UGA.
Also, you libs always bash Deal but never, ever mention his REACH program that serves only the need-based students with $2500/year credit for college.
Rick in Grayson
January 24th, 2013
12:48 pm
We should have plenty of college age illegal aliens that will qualify for Obama’s deferment policy. They will jump in and increase the number of students enrolled in Georgia’s universities and colleges.
As we have already seen, the US is willing to import foreign students/workers to fill any needs that employers in Georgia have…and at the RIGHT wage level. The Georgia economy will not suffer.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:55 pm
a note about military service for college education.
I encourage all kids I think are tempermentally suited for service to explore the option. it has major
upsides which get lost in the hysteria of parental freakouts.
-get out of school with near zero debt.
-practical job experience employers look for
-veteran status prefereces in hiring
-the disipline learned being a soldier makes for better students
-health care
-admission preference at most schools
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
12:59 pm
why HOPE for all qualified scholars, instead of just the poor ones?
-social engineering / punishment of the successful won’t work. try as you might, it will not bring down the upper level of society, and those who advocate it still will envy the productive.
-the costs of college these days are profoundly extreme, and could easily bankrupt a six figure family.
why are they extreme? the federal gov’t has jacked up what they’ll pay, so the colleges have in turn jacked up what they’ll charge to match it
jarvis
January 24th, 2013
1:00 pm
The poor are paying for the HOPE anyway. Can we see an economic study on those playing Lotto? How many scratch off tickets are being sold to anyone that can actual afford to buy them?
Pompano
January 24th, 2013
1:01 pm
With the exception of a few fields, the majority of Jobs actually do not require a college education to perform – even though that may be the standard for entry. Prior to the mid-70’s, many companies tested applicants for aptitude and had training programs in place to develop their workforce. Unfortunately, minorities often did not perform as well (still holds true today) and this practice was discontinued due to threats of litigation. However, for most Jobs in society, a reasonably intelligent high-school graduate could be trained to perform well.
In colleges, why does it take the same amount of time to educate someone seeking a Business degree as someone looking to be an Engineer? College degrees have become devalued and no longer provide the same indication of ability as in years past.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
1:01 pm
if anything, HOPE should focus more on getting kids into Tech schools. we have a crying need for skilled tradesmen. and some pay very well.
Teacher Reader
January 24th, 2013
1:03 pm
HOPE should be given based on the grades students make, and not the amount of money a parent does/does not make. As a parent, I don’t feel that it is my job to pay for my child’s college. When they turn 18 they are adults and the purse strings are snipped, just as they were done for me. A child who works hard should not be punished because a parent has worked hard and makes a nice income.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
1:05 pm
@ Pompano
since the fed has been willing to pay for so many to get college degrees, more and more employers now require a degree for jobs which flat don’t need them. however, that cow is long out of the barn.
it is what it is, and we gotta deal with it
Mel
January 24th, 2013
1:08 pm
Need-based HOPE smacks of class warfare. A common theme in our society today. HOPE should be for those that EARN in. Maybe it helps a pre-med save $ so they can afford medical school. Don’t punish kids for being smart. That hasn’t worked well in education.
Shark Punch!
January 24th, 2013
1:09 pm
@Kris 12:05: $150K to hire a Math PhD? What planet are you on? The median salary for a *full* Math Prof. is just under $90K. Assistants and Associates go for significantly less.
There’s been a lot of effort at the college level towards raising retention/graduation rates, and much of this is due to an increasing number of students coming in unprepared or under-prepared. Remedial courses, tutoring programs, and the like don’t come for free. If we’re going to spend money on needs-based education, do it at the pre-college level.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
1:10 pm
@ teacher/reader
do you throw them out the door with only the clothes on their back when they turn 18?
me, I do everything I can help supports my kids educations because 1) I love them and 2) I want them to have the best possible start in life possible so they won’t need me later.
but that’s just me
a reader
January 24th, 2013
1:12 pm
Without Zell/HOPE my daughter would have gone out of state instead of staying in GA for undergraduate. As it stands, the Zell /HOPE award was still less than her alternatives (and we are paying more for her to stay instate vs. going out of state with school sponsored merit-based awards in competitive programs). It’s not a huge difference, and her preference was to remain closer to home, but if the goal is to keep GA’s top graduates in GA, then watering down HOPE will have more head elsewhere (and possibly not come back).
jarvis
January 24th, 2013
1:16 pm
The original limitation on HOPE was $100,000 for a family. That would be right around $160,000 in today’s money.
By comparison, tuition at the University of Georiga has gone up by 160% in the same timeframe. If needs based was put back in place, what would the limit be? $260,000 would obviously be the same increase of 160%.
jarvis
January 24th, 2013
1:23 pm
No one wants to discuss the regressive nature of the HOPE scholarship, aye? Poor people pay for wealthier people to go to college.
The whole thing should be abolished in my opinion. Use the lottery money to buy things that help poor people. Not really sure what that is, but education ain’t it.
Tea Party Patriot
January 24th, 2013
1:28 pm
Any way you cut, HOPE and its beneficiaries are socialist. Good parents don’t mooch off the government for their kid’s education–at a government school, no less.
Agent
January 24th, 2013
1:40 pm
Jarvis, that has to be the dumbest comment I have ever read. Use lottery money to buy things to help the poor but education ain’t it? No wonder this state is in such bad shape. Let me let you in on a little secret, 99.999% of all well-to-do people are well educated.
The HOPE should be merit based, period. Need based scholarships are called financial aid.
Amanda Brinks
January 24th, 2013
1:47 pm
There is already needs-based scholarhip money and plenty of it. Pell Grants are for needs-based students and they don’t have to have high grades to earn them.
Pell Grants are readily available. For students with financial needs, they will receive a Pell Grant.
HOPE is for hard-working students. They deserve it.
The issue with givig all HOPE scholarships to students with financial needs is that it often leaves out the lower and middle classes who cannot afford to pay for tuitionm, even in-state tuition. A tiny 50K salary leaves no room for college tuition for a family; yet, families earning 50K a year don’t qualify for Pell Grants. So the only way a middle class kid can attend college is to get a HOPE scholarship.
So, you see, middle class families NEED HOPE
This is the flaw in the argument that only needs-based students should get Hope.
It also underscores the reality of the purpose of HOPE. The purpose of HOPE is to keep educated students in the state of Georgia so they can create jobs. Sutdents who have a great deal of financial need (lower class) don’t create jobs; they fill them.
jarvis
January 24th, 2013
1:48 pm
@Agent, you think the guy in front of me at the CITGO buying smokes and the whole roll of scratch off tickets is fostering college going offspring?
He’s funding the thing mabye it would be more helpful to begin teachingg the next generation of his bloodline about personal responsibilities, birth control and breaking the cycle of jail ridden fatherless homes.
Those are just a couple of ideas of what to do with the money.
jarvis
January 24th, 2013
1:53 pm
Also Agent, couldn’t help notice that while calling me dumb, you didn’t refer to the the regressive economics question. That part was over your head?
HS Teacher
January 24th, 2013
1:57 pm
Can anyone tell me about the HOPE for Teachers? I believe this was ended some recent years ago due to budget constraints. Can we bring this back. I would love to get my masters but there is no way I can with out the financial help.
Agent
January 24th, 2013
1:57 pm
Jarvis,
For one, how do you know whether or not the guy buying scratch offs is fostering college going offspring? Are saying only poor people buy lottery tickets?
BTW, I didn’t say you were dumb. I said your comment was dumb. I guess reading and understanding my comment is over your head?
William Casey
January 24th, 2013
1:59 pm
HOPE should remain a merit based scholarship. The integrity of the program should be maintained by making the first semester a REIMBURSEMENT program. If the student meets the grade standard (3.0?), he/she is reimbursed for the full cost of tuition, fees and books (HOPE as it used to be.) If not, it’s own the student’s own dime. I’d like to see a study of how much HOPE money is wasted on “students” who: (a) are patently unprepared for college or (b) choose to party for a year. This cuts across socioeconomic lines.
Debby
January 24th, 2013
2:01 pm
College work has been dumbed down because it’s become the norm that everyone who leaves high school is expected to head to college. Many of these kids are totally unprepared for it. As far as I’m concerned college should be a right for those who can make it grade-wise. The HOPE scholarship should be merit-based only.
B. Killebrew
January 24th, 2013
2:11 pm
Twin Mom:
In the case of income and financial aid, I would hope they would take into account how many children a family has in college–all children under 24 or something like that. If not, this would be something to implement soon.
So, yes–in the case of twins, I see that as 50K instead of 100K.
Rhaegar Targaryen
January 24th, 2013
2:15 pm
jarvis:
The original HOPE limitation was actually $66,000…in 1993.
In 1994, they moved the limitation to $100,000. A few years later, they removed the income cap.
Amanda Brinks
January 24th, 2013
2:18 pm
Tea Party, HOPE is paid for with lottery sales. The lottery is a for-profit entity. It isn’t socialism.
old school doc
January 24th, 2013
2:20 pm
UGA used to be a safety school for an average student. Now it is quite competitive. THis is a direct result of HOPE– smart students, of whatever SES, are choosing to stay in GA.
Keep HOPE merit based!
Amanda Brinks
January 24th, 2013
2:20 pm
William Casey — there is a huge flaw in your idea that HOPE needs to be a reimbursement program. Kids don’t have 17K (in state at GA tech) to pay — they cannot just withdraw it out of their trust fund.
Think about it.
Amanda Brinks
January 24th, 2013
2:22 pm
HS Teacher — you can get loans. You don’t need HOPE.
Catlady
January 24th, 2013
2:38 pm
Michael: Your information is not true.
Astropig
January 24th, 2013
2:52 pm
“you think the guy in front of me at the CITGO buying smokes and the whole roll of scratch off tickets is fostering college going offspring?”
I. Don’t. Care. If the guy is that stupid, he deserves the screwed up life he’s living. Time somebody pointed that out.
Now, maybe his kid is cut from different cloth. Maybe his kid has ambition and smarts and wants to break the cycle of poverty.There should be help for that kid and there is. If the offsprung makes good grades and really wants to get ahead in life there are lots of avenues for him/her to go to school to mine their potential.If they are as smart as I outline,they know that great two year schools exist that offer a heck of a bang for the education buck (and with a Pell and some p/t work,they are a breeze to afford). And there’s no shame in transferring to a four year university to get those last two years. Nobody cares where you took the test,they just want to see your drivers license.
I personally think that having poor schmucks that play the lottery (where the odds are the worst of any legal gambling) is the fairest way to pay for any and all things educational.
Slick
January 24th, 2013
3:10 pm
We have needs based assistance already. They are called pell grants and stafford loans.
yuzeyurbrane
January 24th, 2013
3:14 pm
It is all part of the bigger cultural problem—there is no firm belief in affordable quality public education. Otherwise, how does one explain the unrelenting march over the last several decades to go from a virtually tuition free system to a high tuition system?
Prof
January 24th, 2013
3:35 pm
@ yuzeyurbrane. One significant factor: the perpetual annual cutting of budgetary funds to the USG system by our state legislature. Many think this is part of a larger national trend in which state legislatures shift the burden of the cost of higher education from the general taxpayers to those students who enroll in the colleges and universities.
anon
January 24th, 2013
3:37 pm
As someone whose kids would almost certainly fail to qualify for need-based subsidies, I support making Hope (and Georgia pre-K) need-based (at least in part). The public policy objections to the current system are sounds, and I believe that, from behind a Rawlsian veil of ignorance, we would design something different. I also object to the current system based on fairness. Since lotteries are effectively a tax on people who can’t do math, I suspect that most lottery funds are not coming from the 2% or even the middle classes. My suspicion is that, under a non-need-based system, the lower classes are effectively subsidizing the upper classes. But this is just conjecture. I would love to see some numbers.
Centrist
January 24th, 2013
3:37 pm
No, not time for yet another need based program. Merit based is just fine, and it was grade inflation that so improperly expanded recipients.
The Hope scholarship has been fixed and is back to a being an excellent example which other states are following. The majority of the electorate Georgia agrees – unlike the majority of liberal AJC readers and bloggers.
Please Pass the Info
January 24th, 2013
3:46 pm
I read th article about HOPE and Gov. Deal giving extra money to technical schools for students going into fields with shortages. One of gthe fields mentioned in the article was early childhood education. Please contact Gov. Deal and tell him there is no shortage of early childhood teachers. There are many, many recently gaduated, fully certified applicants who cannot find a job. I read an article yesterday stating tthere is a glut on the market of ECE teachers nationwide and colleges and universities should consider putting a cap on number of students they allow to enroll.
Inman Parker
January 24th, 2013
4:02 pm
I am utterly opposed to limiting HOPE to needs based students. With college tuition at already incredibly high numbers, many middle class kids will be left out as few middle class families will be able to show “need” to a government bureaucracy that sets arbitrary limits on income. Besides, when I voted FOR legal gambling on Georgia (the Lottery) my YES voye was predicated on a PROMISE from the state to use some or all of those funds for helping ALL families. Maybe you’re now willing to let the state go back on that promise. I AM NOT! Merit based is the way to go!
Jerry Eads
January 24th, 2013
4:06 pm
The question actually should be “Is it time to RE-consider needs-based scholarships.” The state created HOPE to make it possible for high-achieving students who couldn’t afford college to be able to go. When the needs-based criteria were dropped, because students with greater opportunity (i.e., $) tend to get higher grades, HOPE has turned too often into a means for higher income parents to buy their offspring a bimmer while the predominantly low-income folk who are suckered by lotteries pay for the kid’s college. IF Georgia wishes to realize the economic benefit of HOPE, it should be RETURNED to a needs-based system.
pull my other leg
January 24th, 2013
4:09 pm
I am not a fan of Hope. However, it needs to remain merit based. I graduated from KSU and most of the scholarships given were needs based. In addition the poor are given Pell grants. My daughter is now going to Auburn University because she was given a scholarship that pays more than anything that UGA had to offer, including the HOPE. If The University of Geargia system wants to achieve academic excellence, they need to make more merit-based scholarships available. There is enough needs-based scholarships.
homeschooler
January 24th, 2013
4:13 pm
Definitely should remain merit based. I have a nephew who qualified for both Pell and Hope. He lost his Hope money in the first semester as well he should have. He was not taking school seriously and will now have to earn back the Hope. Although unlucky to have been born to loser parents who lost custody of him when he was 11 (which is how he qualifies for Pell) he was very lucky to be born with a great personality and high intelligence that gives him great potential. He has been given every opportunity to meet his potential. Whether he will or not remains to be seen but no one can blame Hope, or the government. He will be the only one to blame if he fails. His extended family and the government have been good to him and have given all the building blocks to succeed.
the prof
January 24th, 2013
4:14 pm
very simply, NO.
Dewey Cheatham & Howe
January 24th, 2013
4:52 pm
” low-income folk who are suckered by lotteries pay for the kid’s college. ”
Nobody is making those people buy those tickets. It’s really a tax levied on people that can’t do basic math.
If your average lottery customer buys $5 worth of tickets a week,by the time his newborn is 18,he will have dropped $4680 into my son’s HOPE kitty (thank you!). Poor people that play the numbers could save that money for their kid and even at todays lousy interest rates,have enough to fund a couple of years of community college.(After which,with good grades,they can get the HOPE) .Get the kid a job mopping the floors at Krystal during high school and have him chip in $10 a week for a couple of years and he/she can see a better life for themselves.(If they transfer to a closeby university as a junior,they don’t have to live on campus-another saving)
Where there’s a will there’s a way.
Nutty Professor
January 24th, 2013
4:59 pm
In regards to a couple of respones above:
1. The 2.0 requirement will be for the HOPE Grant, which deals with technical college certificates and diplomas. This is entirely doable in my opinion. If the 3.0 requirement keeps people from becoming plumbers, welders, etc., then at least make them pass courses. I would actually find 2.5 a bit more palatable, but I understand lowering it for the HOPE Grant (not the HOPE Scholarship).
2. I do agree with William Casey to an extent. There is a bit of waste in money subsidizing students to spend their first year partying at a college. What I would consider is either a) making the first year a reimbursement plan or b) capping the first year to about $2000 per semester. Does that mean money has to come from the student or the student’s parents? Yes. But I can tell you if I pay part of my son’s tuition to go to UGA, Tech, Georgia Southern or elsewhere, you better believe I will be on him to keep his grades up and not be foolish his freshman year. Or, my son can go to a community or technical college for his core classes. Capping HOPE might keep it solvent and may encourage the universities to keep tuition costs low.
May not be a perfect thought, but it is a thought.
I Teach Writing
January 24th, 2013
5:49 pm
The most damaging pattern in any HOPE discussion is the one that sets up need- and merit-based models as opposites. They’re not. Hybrid models are possible. There are some drawbacks to avoid, but hybridity also offers a lot of policy benefit. The Miller Scholar program would stay intact as a purely merit-based program — get a 3.7 (which isn’t exactly difficult), and you get a free ride. HOPE, however, could become a hybrid. Here’s why:
The biggest threat to the long-term stability of the HOPE program is its inherent internal tensions. After all, you’re funding higher education with the proceeds of a gaming system whose most evident player determinant is education level: the more well-educated the person, the less likely she is to play the lottery. Since lotteries are an atrociously bad investment, statistically speaking, this inverse relationship between education and lottery participation makes tons of sense. If we want a better educated populace (something everyone says we should want), and we aim programs like HOPE at achieving that goal, then we should also be planning on continually decreasing lottery revenues. HOPE recipients, for example, are much less likely to pay back into the lottery system that funded their education.
None of that’s a bad thing, nor is it surprising, but it does mean that an increasingly well-educated populace with declining lottery revenues would either dilute HOPE funding significantly for each awardee OR lead to incremental restructuring — something we’ve seen already. Adding an incremental need component to HOPE in addition to the merit component seems like a logical solution. The higher one’s family income, the less needed is external financial aid. That doesn’t mean it’s not desirable on an individual level! But what you want for you may not be what’s good for the state as a whole.
A commenter above (apologies for not grabbing your name before I started writing this) proposed a stair-stepped HOPE system whereby the merit qualifications would remain the same but the percentage of tuition paid would drop at certain levels of income. It seems like a decent first draft, but I wonder why we’re using income instead of simply using Expected Family Contribution (EFC), which is already calculated by the federal government for every aid applicant AND already includes adjustments for multiple college attendees per family. Maybe four levels of funding? 100%, 75%, 50%, 25%? Whatever the cutoffs are, they should align more or less with wealth quintiles: bottom two (or 2.5?) get 100% funding, the middle quintile 75%, and the fourth quintile 50%, and the top quintile gets 25%. If that means a few more rich kids with mediocre grades go out of state for school, I think we can live with that. The Miller program will give an excellent incentive for the brightest to remain. And the HOPE/Miller program would become much more sustainable while simultaneously aiming to increase the number of college-educated workers in the state AND working to keep the very brightest Georgians at in-state schools.
Seems like a fair compromise to me.
Solutions
January 24th, 2013
5:51 pm
I reject “need based” anything, you either earn it or you do not get it!
I Teach Writing
January 24th, 2013
5:59 pm
@Solutions (5:51) — So you reject the idea of a more well-educated workforce, leading to more tech-centered, high-paying jobs, leading in turn to a better tax base and more high-level entrepreneurial possibilities? Because the state isn’t currently earning those things.
And that’s why it’s not bright to make policy decisions dependent on anecdotal examples.
Jerry Eads
January 24th, 2013
6:08 pm
HS Teacher – yes, a HOPE program used to be available to teachers in “high need” subjects who wanted to earn advanced degrees. It was dropped to maintain the open HOPE for all students a bit longer as tuition and fees and etc. costs accelerated faster than health care as the state de-funded education, effectively passing the costs on to individual students and their families.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
6:11 pm
@ william
while I agree in principal about HOPE as a reimbursement program, the difficult truth is due to HOPE the costs of attending college in Georgia have skyrocketed to where the start up costs could easily be prohibitive.
in a perfect world, money would have been set aside. however, in a perfect world we would not be staggering through the worse economy in our lifetimes. I can’t speak for anyone else, but my reserves disappeared long ago.
any idea how to get around that?
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
6:14 pm
I suppose in the end it all comes down to what is the true purpose of HOPE.
if its to create a more educated Georgia, then it should be merit based, period. a reward for hard work and sacrifice.
if the point is another round of social engineering and entitlements, then….
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
6:19 pm
@ Maureen
its been a long time since I’ve been able to look at HOPE data. last time I did I was focusing on the downright scary amount of students who lose HOPE within the year.
have you seen any recent data which refers to how likely low income (ie needs based) student actually keep HOPE for the duration and graduate? and how it might compare to middle income HOPE students?
living in an outdated ed system
January 24th, 2013
6:20 pm
From the day I moved to Atlanta my position remains unchanged. The HOPE scholarship should be needs-based. We can give tuition discounts for in-state residents, but those who can’t afford it should get additional help.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
6:23 pm
perhaps another way to approach this is by having a tiered fee system.
those with the best grades pay the lowest amount, the middle of the road students pay a higher amount, and the most likely not to succeed students pay the highest amount.
I Teach Writing
January 24th, 2013
6:28 pm
@bootney (6:14) – I don’t follow your logic. If the goal is to create a more educated GA, then merit-based awards going to students who would attend college with or without HOPE achieve nothing on the level of policy. If that were the sole goal, then the money should be spent to maximize the percentage of students able to finish with HOPE’s aid who would be otherwise unable to attend or finish school.
I think the goals of HOPE are more various (and maybe a bit murky). I also think you’re making the same category error that I’ve seen in many comments from other, less astute commenters: confusing policy goals with outcomes for individuals. Hard work and sacrifice are individual inputs that don’t even lead reliably to individual outcomes, and they’re hopelessly fuzzy as a basis for state-level policy.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
6:30 pm
BTW: nothing is preventing those of you who favor needs based over merit from getting together and creating scholarships aimed specifically at low income students.
if you feel this passionately about it, do something.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
6:33 pm
@ I teach
its simple. let me walk you through it.
reward and incentive for hard work. also, put the resources available to those most likely to succeed, and not toss the money down rat holes.
I worked at GPC for a long long long long time. I’ve seen both sides in action.
Truth in Moderation
January 24th, 2013
6:38 pm
13 year old gets $10 million Bat Mitzvah, teachers and taxpayers get THE SHAFT!
“David H. Brooks, the founder and former chief executive of DHB Industries, Inc., and Sandra Hatfield, the former chief operating officer, are accused of falsely inflating the value of the inventory of the company’s top product, the Interceptor vest, to help meet profit margin projections. Brooks also is accused of using the company treasury as his own private bank account, spending $5 million on unauthorized expenditures.
Prosecutors say Brooks splurged on six-figure parties and other extravagances, including a diamond encrusted belt buckle and a Bentley. Brooks also allegedly spent millions of company funds on his horse racing hobby and allowed his daughter to use the company jet to travel to a Halloween party in Wisconsin.”
It gets worse:
“Brooks and Hatfield also are accused of failing to report to the IRS more than $10 million in bonus payments they and other DHB employees received.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/27/dhb-industries-body-armor_n_435920.html
This CEO was raking in tax dollars through lucrative MILITARY CONTRACTS.
AND THE REST OF US ARE SUPPOSED TO GROVEL FOR SHRINKING “HOPE” GAMBLING DOLLARS?
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?
I Teach Writing
January 24th, 2013
6:40 pm
@bootney — If the goal is to reward hard work, using grades a(n ineffective) proxy for hard work, then your logic more or less holds up. But that doesn’t equate to “a more educated Georgia.” Reaching that collective goal requires targeting kids who wouldn’t afford to finish otherwise.
I don’t mind pondering different (or multiple) goals, but let’s not pretend they’re the same, okay? These conversations get sufficiently confusing without blurring categories.
bootney farnsworth
January 24th, 2013
6:54 pm
@ I teach
you seem to be assuming the lower income students will finish. that is not necessarily a solid ground to stand on.
the genuine low income scholar will have fiscal opportunities in abundance.
PSDad
January 24th, 2013
7:02 pm
Lower income children are being left behind because everyone in our school system is so focused on diversity and equality that they are ignoring the fact that low income and single parent households need support that goes beyond simply educating their kids from 8am to 3pm. Don’t lower the standards to reward mediocre kids, redirect that money toward programs that support these families with things such as early morning and after school enrichment programs and/or bilingual curriculums. Address each need at the local/neighborhood level where there are demographic and cultural needs that can be identified and addressed. Create opportunities for success by directing more resources at early intervention and assistance to kids and neighborhoods that need it. Then these kids will be positioned for success and we won’t need to have conversations about why low income kids are being left behind.
hssped
January 24th, 2013
7:16 pm
I can’t believe that Carter is supporting a bill to lower the standards. Nothing good ever comes from lowering the bar. Look at the housing issues…..lower the bar…more people “qualify” and then can’t handle it. Foreclosures everywhere, home values plummet…..we all suffer. Lowering the bar is never good.
Timmy
January 24th, 2013
7:39 pm
If it changes to a “Need Based”… change the name from HOPE, it will no longer only be helping “Outstanding” students.
LHamil
January 24th, 2013
7:55 pm
I was surprised that the standards were not always the same for students enrolled in technical colleges as the University System of Georgia. The requirements should have been the same from the beginning.
Educator K/12
January 24th, 2013
8:11 pm
Maybe just maybe some folks might need to stop expecting a handout and go to work. What a novel idea.
It is possible to earn the HOPE, do a joint HS/Freshman year of college, maintain a 3.5 GPA+, and work part-time. If my daughter could do it so can others. The HOPE was all she received because she wasn’t “poor”. She wasn’t poor because her father works 7 days a week and her mother is a teacher and we live within our means. So get off the couch, quit expecting others to do it for you, get a job and be responsible.
Need based–what a joke. There already are too many handouts.
FBT
January 24th, 2013
8:16 pm
Are there any data on HOPE recipients’ financial situations and their graduation rates?
Giving the funds to students who only complete one year of school and borrow additional funds during this year is not doing anyone a favor and artificially raising the cost of a college education.
Lee
January 24th, 2013
8:56 pm
We’ve discussed this for what, twenty times now?
Make HOPE a REIMBURSEMENT program and be done with it. Do away with GPAs and all these “Zell Miller” schemes. The student will pay for his class and if he passes, he gets reimbursed.
It’s really that simple.
What broke HOPE was the “go for a year and then flunk out” student. What was it, about 50% of kids who lost HOPE in the first year? With reimbursement, that wouldn’t be a problem.
I Teach Writing
January 24th, 2013
9:02 pm
@bootney (6:54) — I’m guessing you didn’t read my original (longish) post. I never proposed doing away with the merit standard, simply suggested that hybridizing merit and need was workable and, in many ways, desirable.
If you have non-anecdotal evidence that suggests that, academic qualifications being equal AND adequate funding being available, low-income students graduate at lower rates than higher-income students, I would love to see it. Anecdotally, I did quite well in both undergrad and grad programs despite my family’s low income; my parents had just enough stashed for retirement than I didn’t quite qualify for PELL, but they certainly weren’t in a position to fund my education. I scraped together enough academic scholarships that my 100+ hour work weeks in the summers got me through school. Others I knew, some more gifted than I, only got partway through. Some couldn’t physically pull the hours I managed. Some had parents laid off. Stuff happened. And some of those former students are still trying to find ways to finish, when a hybrid funding system would have enabled them to finish their degrees on time, creating more skilled workers with certifications.
But that’s anecdote. And the plural of anecdote isn’t data. So I look forward to seeing the data on which you’re relying.
RBN
January 24th, 2013
9:03 pm
I totally agree with needs based as I see my middle school students in a 95% free and reduced school change their dreams for their futures because they hear their big brothers and sisters talking about not being able to afford college. The best thing about HOPE truly was the hope it provided to students whose parents never went to college that they could, not the assistance for upper middle class parents that it has become.
dekalbite
January 24th, 2013
9:17 pm
To garner middle class support for programs (which BTW the middle class by and large pays for), you need to give the middle class access to programs like the HOPE scholarship. It’s not easy to be middle class. A great deal of delayed gratification and hard work is involved. After taxes, the average middle class family has little left over to save for college.
At some point merit needs to be considered regardless of parent income. That’s what has driven our Georgia SAT scores for UGA and Georgia Tech higher and higher and thus enhanced our stats higher education system. If you take away the merit component providing a reduced fee for the education of middle class children, there will be a decline in the reputation and rigor of the university system. That can’t be good for our economy.
Matt321
January 24th, 2013
9:25 pm
Lots of myths in here, not a lot of facts. So here are some things. Kids with 4 year college degrees have gigantically more life time earnings than kids with just high school degrees. Kids with 2 year degrees are in the middle. If you graduate with just a high school degree, most of the jobs available will never provide enough income to even support a family. So if one of our goals of our education system is to produce productive citizens that contribute to society, it’s clear that just a high school degree is not enough. That’s why our competitors on the global stage provide secondary education as a universal right.
So, what to do about HOPE, our state poor tax? First, get rid of the poor tax. Second, provide 100% funding to all state institutions, while viciously cutting costs and expenses to make the cost of education make sense again. Third, make every state institution accept any qualified in-state student before it accepts any out-of-state students.
I’d suggest we let the state schools then decide who should get in and out, and stop pretending that a high school GPA or a bad semester at college is a good way to weigh the worth of an individual. Absolutely, if you don’t do the work in college, and don’t meet the college’s standards, you should flunk out. But that should be the choice of the college. We should never limit the potential of our youth by their ability to pay, when we as a society also gain from the investment in their education.
Granny DeKalb
January 24th, 2013
9:27 pm
Keep HOPE merit-based. Colleges need scholars not social programs. Bright kids need encouragement.
Point/Counterpoint
January 24th, 2013
10:22 pm
It is possible to be needy and merit at the same time. Both of my sons earned academic scholarships to college (partial tuition) and qualified for Pell because I am not a college graduate and a female low wage earner. My wages were so low that they actually qualified for aditional Pell money…only we never say additional help. The college lowered their already awarded academic scholarship by the same amount of additional Pell money awarded.
@bootney, both my sons graduated, one is an attorney, the other has an MPA….and both employed!
Kris
January 24th, 2013
10:54 pm
bootney farnsworth 12:38 pm””@ kris you are welcome to disagree, but you may wish to reread my comment. but you are correct on one point, I do not support spending money earmarked for college scholars on stupid people who don’t belong there.””
Thank you..
Now a little true stoy. .I worked for the University system for 30yrs.
There is a little Junior college in N Georgia ( impersonateing a 4 yr. ) Their first year students who get trapped in their development studies program have a 85% drop out rate…. The charge is 4 credit hours for the Development class vs a regular Credit class is 3 credits… What’s sad is that 90% of the trapped students can probably pass regular math and English classes if given a chance.. The math test is rigged. Most college grads cannot pass it….So we get them through K-12 then what over priced colleges that only offer a paper Degree.
yuzeyurbrane
January 24th, 2013
10:54 pm
What many posters fail to distinguish is that you can have both quality education and affordable education based on merit. Arguing whether tuition scholarships to public universities should be based on merit or need really sidesteps the issue of how best to provide quality affordable education for all qualified students. The state should support public education by making it virtually free like it was for so many generations while at the same time having rigorous academic admissions standards. And we could have a university system based on a tiered level of quality. Georgia provided a virtually free college education until recent times—the problem was that the admissions standards were very low as was the investment in public colleges. Now, the admissions standards are much higher but the investment is too low. The Lottery and HOPE Scholarship was really just a way around Georgia’s failure to invest in its future. In recent years the state has cut its investment by billions of dollars, thereby forcing educators to shift more and more of their financial shortfall onto students and their families in an attempt to save their hard-fought gains in raising standards. By having virtually free tuition and high admission standards you can have your cake and eat it, too, without fighting for scarce scholarship funds. The real question is: does Georgia have the will and the wisdom to invest in its future?
Kris
January 24th, 2013
11:01 pm
Granny DeKalb !!!! Keep HOPE merit-based. Colleges need scholars not social programs. Bright kids need encouragement.!!!!!
All of Gods children need ENCOURAGEMENT.
Kris
January 24th, 2013
11:03 pm
Granny DeKalb !!!! Keep HOPE merit-based. Colleges need scholars not social programs. Bright kids need encouragement.!!!!!
All of Gods children need ENCOURAGEMENT. Even the Bright ones.
Another comment
January 25th, 2013
12:39 am
Every month my daughters guidance counceling office sends out a list of available scholarships, the list reads that you must be Black ( african american) black female, black GPA of 2.5 or better, one or two might say you can be Hispanic with a GPA of 2.5. I reguraly go through the lists, rarely are their any scholarships on this lists open to White students. If they are you must have a 4.0, and have a 2200 + or 31 or 32 on the ACT, then ussually be the first in your family to attend college, oh yes and be in the top 5% or the Valdictorian or Saltorian, also have 2 different sports that you are a 4 year Varsity Athelete, have volunteered on Church Mission or reguarly or your church, been active in several clubs in the School, ie, year book, class president. Just how many opportunities are there when we have 2200 -3000 large schools.
Now my daughter has a little bit of Cherokee blood, has always considered herself Native American, but does not have a tribal number because her Cherokee Grandmother died in 1800 and Grandpa married a white spinster women to hide his native american Children during the trail of tears. All the Scholarships require a tribal number for her to claim Native American for a Scholarship, any other minority doesn’t have to prove their a minority.
Their are basicaly no White scholarships. I some months send to the school, when are you going to send the list of scholarships for white students to apply for.
Hope is about it in Georgia, the only scholarship for an above average white student or Native American with out a tribal number whose family has been in Georgia since the late 1700’s. What bites the most is the change to the Zell Miller midway through means my daughter will graduate with a 3.92 and 26 on the ACT. She would have taken easier classes to game the system like others if she would have known the cut off was going to be 3.7 for a full scholarship. She will have a 3.92 + overall.
Cindy Lutenbacher
January 25th, 2013
6:29 am
I don’t actually want to enter the fray by responding to the astounding number of faulty assumptions on this particular blog. I just want to weigh in with those who believe that HOPE can and should be both merit- and need-based. I like the idea presented early on that the merit requirements should be the same for all, but that if a student has financial needs, he/she should receive a larger percentage of scholarship.
Blind leading the Blind
January 25th, 2013
6:48 am
Need based? Are you being serious?
“Congratulations kid. You didn’t work as hard in school as your peers, but those students don’t NEED like you people…”
My Heart "Bleeds"
January 25th, 2013
6:51 am
What 18-20 year old is not poor? They all NEED financial aid.
I Need Another Hole in Head
January 25th, 2013
6:54 am
Need? LOL
Delete away…
Parent Too
January 25th, 2013
8:11 am
How much Hope money was wasted on students with mediocre grades in high school who failed to graduate from college? Students who earn Hope should be rewarded regardless of what their family income is.
Pardon My Blog
January 25th, 2013
8:27 am
@Kris – Sorry, but I agree with Granny, and shouldn’t the parents be encouraging their children from the git go to be the best they can be, including trying hard in school to achieve the best grades possible? @Another – you are so right, there are plenty of grants and scholarships out there for kids who are not white and they can get this money irregardless of their parents’ income.
HOPE needs to continue to be merit based and if a student wants to participate, they need to step up and make the grade. I do think, however, that there should be a separate criteria for those wishing to attend Technical school instead.
Solutions
January 25th, 2013
8:37 am
Dear Comrade “I Teach Writing” – I reject rewarding people for failure via the “needs based” give away programs of the crazy left! This needs based nonsense is just another way the politicians have found to buy votes. If YOU were doing your job well, the children would be able to write better than they write now! So under “needs based” I would list a need for better and smarter writing teachers!
I Teach Writing
January 25th, 2013
9:31 am
@Solutions — How kind of you to sharpen your wit upon me. I’ll let you know when it’s capable of cutting.
As you obviously didn’t read my proposal for hybridity above (and seem unlikely to — it’s long), I’ll summarize: merit standards for aid remain in place, but those with higher need (defined as the difference between the cost of college and their family’s ability to pay said cost) get more money.
This type of approach is already taken by such unselective bastions of academic failure as Harvard and Yale, both of which now cover 100% of tuition for enrollees with family incomes <$65k. Their goal is not to subsidize failure, but to "bring the best people to Harvard, regardless of their ability to pay" (http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/financial_aid/index.html).
Such an adjustment to HOPE wouldn't change the (rather dismal) quality of writing I see from incoming university freshmen (as you suggest, better writing instruction in middle and high school is sorely needed), but it would bring me a higher percentage of students (be they farm kids or city kids) who would be their family's first four-year graduate — the kind of achievement that can change the trajectory of a whole family.
Cynic
January 25th, 2013
9:39 am
The biggest problem in HOPE is the *generation* of parents who have already spent what they *should* have saved for college… Any change in the system will be “unfair” to those who counted their chickens before they hatched.
Solutions
January 25th, 2013
10:34 am
Unlike you, Comrade, I actually have a number of relatives who not only attended, but graduated from either Harvard or Yale. I seriously doubt if many “first in family” to attend college children are going to qualify for either Harvard or Yale (or Georgia Tech for that matter). Regardless, what Harvard and Yale choose to do with their endowment money had nothing to do with the Georgia Hope Scholarship, it should remain a merit based program, none of this sissy boy “needs based” excuse for lower test scores and grades. I myself have high hopes for MOOC’s that will displace 99% of the current college faculty! Oh how the cost of higher education will plunge when all degrees are computer based!
mystery poster
January 25th, 2013
10:53 am
Rather than having the HOPE be a reimbursement program, where the student must put money up front that he or she may not have, I recommend making it a cancel-able loan.
The student agrees that if grades are not maintained and a degree is not reached within a certain amount of time, HOPE reverts to a Student Loan and must be paid back.
I Teach Writing
January 25th, 2013
10:55 am
@Solutions — Props to your family members. I’m guessing their reading comprehension is better than yours. What part of “merit standards remain in place” did you find hard to grasp?
Your ludicrously binary reasoning is exactly the problem we need to avoid in public policy debates. (Or you’re trolling, which is more likely). *puts away the box of Troll Biscuits*
I Teach Writing
January 25th, 2013
11:00 am
@mystery poster (10:53) —
An excellent idea! Gives the accountability (rightly) sought by the people pushing reimbursement without introducing a significant barrier to families (a majority, I suspect) who can’t afford a full year’s expenses out of pocket. Also allows students who can’t maintain HOPE a reasonable chance to finish school, instead of pushing them to drop out by demanding immediate repayment.
Solutions
January 25th, 2013
2:38 pm
Don’t ya just luv the amateur public policy clowns like Comrade “I Teach Writing?” Yo Comrade, the University of Chicago offers a Masters Degree in Public Policy, first get the degree, then make proclamations! I believe it is call the Harris School of Public Policy, but I doubt that you are good enough to gain admittance, they do not offer “needs based” degrees.
Really amazed
January 26th, 2013
8:19 pm
If you are truly a good student with a 31 or higher ACT score you will receive better out of state scholarship offers than GA HOPE. Remember HOPE only pays for tuition and sometimes that max is $6200 a year for a GA college UGA is already over $9,000 GT is over $10,0000 you still have room, board etc. People think this is a free ride. They don’t realize that you still have over $12,000 per year extra on top of tuition. If GA keeps this up they WILL lose the best and brightest.
SouthernGal
January 27th, 2013
9:25 am
Middle class students DO NOT qualify for Pell or other needs based funding.
a mom
January 28th, 2013
2:58 pm
Colleges are absurdly expensive. The benefit that a student in college gets at the end of the 4 years is not worth the investment at many schools and in many fields. Until this bubble pops and changes to cost of tuition is made, this HOPE discussion isn’t really going to matter. But for now, I think it should remain merit based, as well as some need component. If you cannot maintain a 3.0 gpa then you don’t deserve the $ no matter your station in life. The problem of students flunking out of college and losing their HOPE scholarships points to Georgia’s public high schools and the general idea college students have where they think it’s all a fun party and they drink their life away their freshman year (literally). This has happened to dozens of people I know and it’s not just a problem in Georgia. This whole thing cannot be solved just by changing the designation of one scholarship from merit to need.