Should Dunwoody have its own schools? Should cities be allowed to break from county systems?
Should communities be permitted to revolt against their county school systems and create their own school districts?
Legally, it would likely require a change to the state Constitution, which now forbids any new independent school systems. (I added the text of the state Constitution to a comment that I made below. Some of you are questioning the existence of city school systems such as Decatur and Dalton, but those systems predate the constitutional prohibition.)
But we may see a push for such a change in the wake of DeKalb’s problems with SACS.
Mike Davis, the mayor of Dunwoody, just wants out.
Davis said he believes nearly all Dunwoody residents want to separate from the DeKalb school system, and it’s something his city council is openly discussing. They are likely to ask state lawmakers in January for a measure — probably involving an amendment to the state constitution — that would let cities without school systems create their own.
“I think the system is too big, too corrupt,” Davis said of DeKalb. “Are we disappointed? Yes. Are we disgusted? Yes.”
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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170 comments Add your comment
Dunwoody Mom
December 19th, 2012
12:31 pm
@Hamilton, those Dunwoody conversion charters are subject to the same staffing requirements, funding requirements, redistricting fiasco’s etc., that the non-charters are subject to. No, the conversion charter route will not solve the educational issues facing us.
Fancy, expensive cars at DHS? Really? I must be looking at the parking lot of a different school…
Edugator
December 19th, 2012
12:34 pm
DunMoody- right on most points, but Dunwoody HS could have avoided the block schedule, as Lakeside and Chamblee did. Bottom line is that the block DHS uses is easier for teachers, kids and parents, and that’s why they stick to it. Since the AB block sometimes leaves kids with an 8 month gap between math and language classes, it is fatally flawed and should be discontinued at a school that purports itself to be academically rigorous.
Mel
December 19th, 2012
12:37 pm
I would take it a step further. Dunwoody, Brookhaven and Chamblee should all seperate and form their own unified school district. It could conceivably be small enough for the local control they want and large enough to take advantage of economies of scale.
Dunwoody Mom
December 19th, 2012
12:40 pm
@Edugator…DHS has tried several times to move away from the 4×4 block. It has been blocked at the Central Office each time. There was a recent letter from the 1st year DHS Principal outlining his reasons for not pursuing this for the next school year. Not saying that I agree with his reasoning, but I think that is also a mandate from the Central Office due to finances.
Thaddeus Osbourne Dabell
December 19th, 2012
12:42 pm
There seems to be some confusion about the cashflows in this system. I know I’m confused.
By my calculations given the average 30338 home value, current tax rates and DCSS per student expenditures, a family with 3 children in the DCSS system for K-12 will not live long enough to be “paying it back” when it comes to the cost of their children’s educations. If you believe Dunwoody is top of the home value heap, and it may well be, then it only get’s worse as you move to other parts of the county.
Funding also comes from state and federal sources, and I suppose Duwoodians (Dunwoodiots? Nah, it’s a Smart City) might argue they pay more (than their fair share) of those taxes. But the fact is homeowner property tax isn’t doing the heavy lifting many seem to think it is, especially in parent-think. Business property tax, perhaps, but not homeowners.
For Dunwoody to start up it’s own school system we would have to assume a change to the constitution and legislation mandating transfer of school property at a nominal cost as was done with the parks when the city was formed. As many have already pointed out government school operations come with many encumberances and a CoD system would be much more expensive than proponents are willing to acknowledge (think: Dunwoody Police Department). I suppose the Carl Vinson Institute would give it a green-light though.
Furthermore there is no evidence to suggesting that Dunwoody would offer anything different or better in way of governance other than consistently pasty faces which in and of itself isn’t “better”. We do have evidence to suggest they might be as bad or worse than what we have now. Dunwoody has polarized internal factions (the “ethics” kerfuffle, the parkway, pathway and peachford building…) and started from day one with “Friends and Family” on the City payroll. Sound familiar?
As a “Dunwoody resident who doesn’t really care about the DCSS” I would not be happy paying more to “school” my neighbors children. I’m not thrilled with what I already pay. I’ve lived here for a few decades and never cease to be amazed at the folks who move to Dunwoody “for the schools” when it would not be a much greater commute to access the far better education offered in East Cobb or North Fulton at pretty much the same price.
Fred
December 19th, 2012
12:45 pm
@Concernedmom30329 – I’m not sure what you mean by Gwinnett Schools becoming more diverse. Perhaps your stereotype image of Gwinnett needs updating. Gwinnett is a majority minority school system and county. Gwinnett is the most diverse county in the Metro area. The student population in Gwinnett is 165,000 kids – fully 1/10 of the state’s student population. I think I saw where 59% of the kids now qualify for and receive meal assistance either reduced or free. We have one of the largest populations of of ESL students (if not the largest) in the state. We are a long way from perfect but we do okay.
Concerned Dad
December 19th, 2012
12:58 pm
I feel everyone has made very valid points. Dunwoody needs its own schools. Fran Millar has been the voice of reason for schools in Dunwoody and speaks for its citizens along with Dick Williams of the Crier and Fox 5 have expossed DeKalb for what it currently is which is an underperforming bloated system.
Dick and Fran we need your help? With DeKalb going on probation and no hope in the near future Dunwoody and its surrounding areas are in trouble and we need you to lead this fight.
We also need the Dunwoody City Council to start a petition and get the City of Dunwoody involved in this debate.
Thank you to our mayor who is hated by the Tea Party Mike Davis for taking up the interests that really matter.
Maybe the Dunwoody Tea Party will choose the will choose the right side this time.
They voted down parks and sidewalks so maybe they wanted DeKalb to maintain control but if you do not support this maybe we need throw all the tea in the Chattahoochee.
Dunwoody Mom
December 19th, 2012
1:18 pm
OT: But the first SPLOST IV monthly report is now available. Has quite a bit of detail – surprisingly.
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/www/documents/splost-iv/urs-monthly-report-(2012-11).pdf
skipper
December 19th, 2012
1:24 pm
It all goes back to one point………the school system is a cluster, and everybody knows it.
The Hammer
December 19th, 2012
1:28 pm
@bootney farnsworth
“they should also make sure to fund it by a user or consumer tax so the pain is spread to the entire community and not just homeowners.”
EVERYONE pays property tax, not just homeowners. Even retail customers pay a portion of a business’s property tax.
Folks, if you’re going to comment on matters of economics, at least know what you’re talking about.
Susan
December 19th, 2012
1:31 pm
@Thaddeus. It used to be true that the state and fed paid a majority of the cost of education. Recent data tells us that the mix has flipped. Now, local property taxes pay more than the state for education. It’s over 50%.
Christopher
December 19th, 2012
2:00 pm
I doubt most Dekalb County Administrators could even pass the states graduation tests. These people feel they are entitled to their jobs forever.
Private School by default
December 19th, 2012
2:02 pm
I live in Brookhaven and have watched the exodus of families with five year old children for years. Lots of baby strollers in the neighborhood, but hardly any school-aged kids. Parents vote with their feet and their $$. If Dunwoody and Brookhaven could form a school district, I would send my kid there instead of $15k per year private school. No way am I sending my kid to a DeKalb school that is just a jobs program for friends and family. Too many administrators making fat, six figure salaries who don’t care about the three R’s.
David
December 19th, 2012
2:04 pm
@Fred. Gwinnett’s school system is horrible and is teaching a large group of students who will be on welfare or in prison the rest of their lives. How many people move to Gwinnett for their shools? Nobody. Remember 20 and 30-years ago when Dekalb residents were flocking to Gwinnett for their better schools. Those days are long gone.
Returning DCSS Parent
December 19th, 2012
2:05 pm
I say Dunwoody should have their own schools if they can pay for it without any of the money from other parts of the county. I live in South DeKalb and am not happy with the DCSS. I am not poor, uneducated and an ignorant voter. Stop with the blanket comments about people you don’t even know. And yes, there are several minorities in South DeKalb that send our kids to private schools because we are not happy with the caliber of education our children are receiving. Remember, the problems with DCSS predate the current inept board. SACS clearly stated the problems started over a decade ago. As long as my tax dollars are NOT going to be used to create a new school system, have at it Dunwoody.
bu2
December 19th, 2012
2:05 pm
@Dunwoody Mom
Slightly off topic, but since you added the link:
The 600 seat addition at SW Dekalb HS was awarded in October and will break ground this month. Their report last month showed that SW Dekalb HS would have 600 excess seats after the construction. Nobody is paying attention. That contract should never have been let. They already knew it was unneeded (there may be parts of the renovation needed, but not the extra classrooms).
Dunwoody Mom
December 19th, 2012
2:11 pm
@bu2, true, but since the addition was specifically on the SPLOST IV list, can it be scaled back to just a renovation? I don’t know the legal aspects of this.
Dunwoody Mom
December 19th, 2012
2:15 pm
Actually, a quick review of the SPLOST IV projects just lists SWD as:
Renovation of Southwest DeKalb HS and Stone Mountain HS
Modifications, upgrades, and renovations to Southwest DeKalb High School and Stone Mountain High School
So, it appears that a new addition is not required. Just a further waste of money.
Jack D. Ripper
December 19th, 2012
2:40 pm
What if two school districts were created? Short of getting rid of everyone and starting over, this would at least reduce the system into more “manageable” units. My suggestion is not just for Dunwoody to separate, but all of the schools in the northern part of the county. This would include Tucker, Druid Hills, Lakeside, Cross Keys, Dunwoody, and Chamblee districts. That would also increase the much needed tax base to support a separate system. It sounds radical, but given where we are right now, something drastic needs to happen. There is a great deal of mismanagement, ineptitude and corruption at the administrative level and we are all suffering as a result. DCSD is a very top heavy district and the “one size fits all” approach has proven to be very ineffective in improving student achievement. After years of hoping things will start to improve, it appears that all we get is more of the same. Teacher pay gets cut each year, yet the superintendent has a personal driver and the district plans to invest in electronic notebooks for middle school students when they haven’t solved their existing financial woes? At the very least I think we need major changes — and soon.
Gwinnett Co. Mom
December 19th, 2012
2:45 pm
I had the opportunity to grow up in Fairfax County, VA and attend the public schools in that system. Fairfax County and Gwinnett County are parallel in size, structure and the ability to merge various diverse factors, such as race, economic level and skills of students into successful, thriving public school systems.
The issue with the other fledgling school systems in the Metro Atlanta area is their lack of care and concern for their students. Across the board, the issues are related to the adults running the system, not the students. The overhaul of these systems need to take place at the top. People, please stop electing these lifetime bureaucrats and get individuals with a genuine interest in your child’s education – not looking for a position to move up in the policitical ranks. In the end, it’s your child who suffers.
say what?
December 19th, 2012
2:47 pm
i said it a year ago! the North DeKalb parents and elected officials were attempting to break from the DeKalb School District. BUT before they did, make sure North Dekalb has its new school buildings updated or built new using the SPLOST taxes that all of DeKalb (primarily South DeKalb) voted to continue.
Shame on the school board members who, along with the North DeKalb parents, knew that they were going to work soley behalf on “their” constituents, using the resources of all the school district.
Shame on Fran Millar for being elected to represent THAT area but be a part of THE DEKALB delagation, which was to work on behalf of the entire county, not just a select few.
The financial cliff of DCSD is in part the behavior of those who are now wanting to break away now that the DCSD has been placed on probation, Don’t allow it! Let them sit and stew in the mess where they have left a BIG footprint made of crap for the rest of DeKalb.
bu2
December 19th, 2012
2:47 pm
@Jack
You just removed all the tax base and put it in one district. The southern one would have next to nothing.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
2:48 pm
With Fran Millar, Mike Jacobs and co. leading the charge, Dunwoody should have no problem getting their own system. While we’re at it, we should just go ahead and create a Brookhaven School System too. Better yet, we could split the county in two – North Dekalb and South Dekalb. We could call the north part of the county Milton County…oops, we may need to see if that name’s still available. As long as the 500 or so people out there who want a Dunwoody System get what they want…that’s what’s important here.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
2:49 pm
Oops, sorry. Change 500 to 1,000.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
2:53 pm
Another solution would be to build a wall around the City of Dunwoody?
living in an outdated ed system
December 19th, 2012
2:53 pm
I have absolutely no problem with this “in principle.” There are MANY changes I’d like to make to the Georgia constitution, starting with the language that says “all citizens shall have access to an ADEQUATE education!” I’d also like to revisit items such as school board governance (perhaps along the lines of @Maureen’s earlier blog post) and also strengthening the ties between public school administrators and local mayors or CEOs, especially in urban areas.
Reviewing the constitution for areas of improvement can become someone’s full time job : )
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
3:03 pm
“EVERYONE pays property tax, not just homeowners. Even retail customers pay a portion of a business’s property tax.”
By this logic then, homeowners just pay more in taxes…
banderson
December 19th, 2012
3:03 pm
Drive through Dunwoody and look at all the signs in people’s yards complaining about things the city wants to do. I know Mike Davis may want Dunwoody schools, Dunwoody Fire Department and Dunwoody sanitation. Most politicians want as much power and budget as possible. But, when your city wastes $50K on a so-called ethics investigation and can’t even get consensus on how to route traffic or build additions to public parks, then it’s clearly not ready for running its own school system.
Brad
December 19th, 2012
3:08 pm
My only question is, “What took so long?” At least out in the burbs, we vote against big government but somehow are unbothered by our enormous school districts. Here in Cobb County, we distrust “big government” except when it comes to our school district. We have 16 high schools, 25 middle schools, 67 elementary schools, over 13,000 employess and well over 100,000 students. Talk to any teacher or principal about any issue, and you will hear the words “central office” more times than you can count. If that is “local control,” then apparently I don’t know what local really means.
Bring on the cities and bring on the city run schools. I’ll take my bureaucrats close and accessible, even if it costs me a bit more. Accountability is worth the price.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
3:10 pm
“When your city wastes $50K on a so-called ethics investigation and can’t even get consensus on how to route traffic or build additions to public parks, then it’s clearly not ready for running its own school system.”
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for this comment! I expect more of the same with Brookhaven.
Hamilton
December 19th, 2012
3:11 pm
@Dunwoody Mom, Tell you what, I’ll just stand on the fact that a working conversion charter is better than what we have now. Nothing will happen fast. When you boil it down we are talking about “government schools” and the top isn’t results-oriented and change comes glacially.
The Governor can replace the Board and a new Superintendent can be hired, but it will take years for new leaders to fix this mess. So act locally with what we can use. It’s called doing something about it.
BTW, the fancy, expensive cars were at DHS in the 80’s, when “Fast Times at Dunwoody High” was a cover story in Atlanta Magazine. Some stereotypes persist for years!
Shari
December 19th, 2012
3:16 pm
I’m a new resident to Georgia and still trying to understand the whole state system. I’m orginially from Texas. The county I grew up in was Upshur and there are 7 school districts in the one county. They range from 3-A to 1-A school districts. No one really has a county system and people like their small schools because kids learn better and there are not bad gang schools. Even in Gregg County (Longview Texas) There are three school districts which range from 5-A to 3-A. Its just weird here in Georgia. Because in Texas if the the city exist it has its own school district, why is that an issue in Georgia. #totallybackwards
Chad
December 19th, 2012
3:16 pm
yes… yes they should
Dunwoody Mom
December 19th, 2012
3:17 pm
@Hamilton…I’m confused as to why you think DCSD conversion charters are some type of different “animal”. My children attended Chesnut and PCMS – they both are bound by the same rules as any other school in DCSD. I’m not sure what you think conversion charters can do that other non-charter schools cannot. Could you give me some examples?
Dunwoody Teacher
December 19th, 2012
3:35 pm
I am a Dunwoody teacher who works for the DCSD. Everyday I go to school with the feeling that my classroom is sufffering due to the incompetent people that I call “boss”. I am not talking about principals. I am talking about the county office who puts themselves and their salaries before any student.
Jack D. Ripper
December 19th, 2012
3:43 pm
@bu2
Well if the northern half of the county is in fact carrying the lion’s share of the tax burden then it seems natural that they would want that money put to the most effective and beneficial use rather than sitting back watching people carelessly squander it away. Does any one have the actual numbers on this?
zyx
December 19th, 2012
3:48 pm
I would normally be against this, but I will make an exception becasue it is Dekalb. Anything to quicken the demise of this failed experiment should be fast tracked.
Of Mice and Men
December 19th, 2012
4:08 pm
Jack D. … don’t have the numbers but believe the disparity is pretty large in taxes paid in the north end versus the south end. Definitely not advocating abandoning the south end schools, but in a way it is taxation without representation as the board politics is heavily skewed away from the north end tax base simply based on population. There are answers to be found in balancing the disparity in performance for low income areas, but if it starts with limiting the potential of the schools in the higher income areas then you exacerbate the counties problems and really aren’t helping those you aim to help either.
Of Mice and Men
December 19th, 2012
4:12 pm
When external auditors advise you to cull the central office staff and you simply reassign them to new jobs instead, how can you expect your constituency to not look for every angle possible to free themselves of your complete idiocy and mismanagement.
The Hammer
December 19th, 2012
4:20 pm
@Bill and Ted
“By this logic then, homeowners just pay more in taxes…”
If their home is valued higher, yes. What, exactly, do you mean?
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
4:28 pm
@the Hammer if I rent an apartment/house and send my kids to the public schools in the county I reside in, how am I paying property tax? Beyond any SPLOST funds collected, how am I contributing financially to the system?
whystopthere
December 19th, 2012
4:29 pm
Might as well go all out and push to be in Fulton County so they can break away when Milton County is reformed.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
4:33 pm
“EVERYONE pays property tax, not just homeowners.”
I’m just confused by that…are you referring to ad valorem tax? That doesn’t fund the school system.
The Hammer
December 19th, 2012
4:38 pm
The property tax that the apartment complex pays is included in your rent. The only portion that is not passed on to the renter is the portion on the land value.
Like I said, if you don’t know about matters of economics, please refrain from commenting on them.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
4:45 pm
If you want to break it down like that, isn’t the land value as much as 35% of the final bill? The original commenter “Bootney,” who comments here often, was remarking on Dekalb homeowners bearing the brunt of the financial cost of funding schools, infrastructure, etc. Homeowners pay more in tax regardless – that is fact. You don’t have to be all snarky either. This is a blog about schools…not tax code.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
December 19th, 2012
4:47 pm
Also, I know that I paid nearly $5000 in school taxes last year (in addition to penny SPLOST taxes) and don’t want to see that millage rate increased again because Dunwoody needs a new school system. I know that much about economics, chief.
The Hammer
December 19th, 2012
4:52 pm
Apartments pay a much smaller percentage of their taxes on the land because of the density of households per acre (but, generally, are built on more expensive land; in the end, the percentages may tend to even out).
Anyway, the point being: don’t be so quick to label renters as not contributing. Single family residential properties don’t contribute much, either, especially compared to the property taxes paid by commercial properties, and remember, commercial properties don’t have children in the schools! Cities don’t survive on residential property taxes alone, which is why they always want to gobble up commercial districts.
bu2
December 19th, 2012
5:32 pm
And Dunwoody has the biggest commercial property district in the county. And the biggest outside the city of Atlanta in the metro area.
bu2
December 19th, 2012
5:43 pm
@Shari
At some point in time, Georgia stopped the creation of more school districts by prohibiting new school districts in the state constitution. Georgia has done it mostly by county. The counties are small compared to Texas. Fulton, Dekalb, Gwinnet, Cobb and Clayton could all fit in Harris County, Texas (Houston). And school districts are tied into governmental lines. If Decatur annexes area, that area becomes part of the school district. That’s the opposite of Texas where cities can annex, but it doesn’t change school district lines. The Katy ISD near Houston is in 3 separate counties and vastly larger than the city of Katy and includes good chunks of the city of Houston. Its just set up differently here and is a little more logical.
Now except for metro Atlanta, with the small size counties, doing it by county works well. Cobb and Gwinnett don’t get many complaints. But city of Atlanta, Dekalb and Clayton are a mess. Fulton gets mixed reviews.
Dunwoodian
December 19th, 2012
7:48 pm
@Thaddeus Osbourne Dabell
You are one of those “I’m count more than you, because I’ve been here longer” types. Do you think your vote should be weighted according to your longevity? A couple a decades ago I was a teenager growing up in Los Angeles, sorry I wasn’t able to live in Dunwoody at the time. I’ll yell at my mom on the phone tonight.”
“Tired of paying for my neighbors education”? Really Man Really? Dunwoody or New York, or Hawaii, people have a societal obligation to educate children. Are you so callous and closed minded not to see that? Who will work to pay for your Medicare (which I guarantee will payout more for every person than they paid in)? Who will be your doctor, nurse, lawyer, pilot, engineer? I guess in your world, the only person left to help you will be the dude who digs your grave due to his cruddy education.
Wake up.