Should teachers be armed? Should parents be allowed to carry guns into schools?
Should teachers be armed?
Should parents with conceal carry permits be allowed to bring guns into schools?
Would it give a school under siege by an armed lunatic a fighting chance or would it lead to more violence?
These are the questions being asked in Michigan, where the Legislature passed a bill last week — over the protests of the state’s school boards — that would allow concealed weapons in schools. Under the bill — now on the governor’s desk — citizens of Michigan who hold concealed weapons permits could bring firearms into schools, stadiums or churches, if they underwent additional training.
Supporters contend the law could help prevent another Newtown massacre.
According to the Detroit Free-Press:
Proponents of the legislation said if the bill is signed into law, it will give people the opportunity to respond to crimes and possibly stop a similar situation. “This kind of tragedy is hard to process, but if one person – a faculty member or a parent – could legally carry, at least it could have limited some of the mayhem,” said Rob Harris, media director for Michigan Open Carry Inc., on Friday. “This legislation has to be passed to at least have a fighting chance against the evil in this world.”
The Michigan Legislature passed Senate Bill 59 on Thursday, which tweaks the concealed weapons law by allowing gun owners who receive eight additional hours of training to carry their weapons in formerly gun-free areas, such as day care centers, schools, hospitals, churches and stadiums and bars.
There about 350,000 concealed pistol license holders throughout the state who would be eligible for the additional training, Harris said. The bill sponsored by state Sen. Mike Green, R-Mayville, also states that schools, including public universities, and privately owned buildings could choose to prohibit guns if owners desire.
The Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners also backed the legislation. Green is a member of the organization’s board. “We were fully behind it because what happens when you disarm law abiding people is there is nobody to stop the crazy people,” said Steve Dulan, spokesman for the organization.
Dulan said most gun owners are responsible. “Many gun owners take their guns with them to the shopping mall where there are kids,” Dulan said. “Schools will be no different than shopping malls.”
It is unclear if Gov. Rick Snyder will sign the bill into law. “The governor said that this bill was going to be already going through a careful review and analysis,” said Snyder’s spokeswoman, Sara Wurfel.
The American Federation of Teachers opposes the law, and explains why in this letter:
Dear Gov. Snyder:
On behalf of the 1.5 million members of the American Federation of Teachers, including the 35,000 members of AFT Michigan, we ask you to veto Senate Bill 59, which would rewrite Michigan’s gun laws to permit persons to bring concealed firearms into schools, college dorms, churches, hospitals, bars and sports stadiums.
Firearms have absolutely no place in our schools—the Dec. 14th tragic massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., is a chilling and heartbreaking reminder of this. Twenty innocent young children have been robbed of their lives, many shot multiple times. Six public servants, who were trying to save these children, were murdered in an environment that should be considered a safe sanctuary for students, educators and school visitors.
We’ve witnessed other horrendous tragedies in our lifetime involving gunfire at schools and universities with devastating consequences — 32 innocent people cut down at Virginia Tech, 16 murdered at the University of Texas at Austin, and 13 students and faculty executed at Columbine High School.
Permitting firearms in schools — visible or concealed — enables a dangerous set of circumstances that can result in similar tragic outcomes. We should be doing everything we can to reduce the possibility of any gunfire in schools, and concentrate on ways to keep all guns off school property and ensure the safety of children and school employees.
Gov. Snyder, please show the kind of leadership that students, families, educators and community members need to be as safe as possible in their schools. You can set an example for Michigan and the nation by taking this small but significant step to reduce gun violence by vetoing S.B. 59.
Sincerely,
Randi Weingarten, President
David Hecker, President, American Federation of Teachers AFT Michigan
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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94 comments Add your comment
Rick L in ATL
December 17th, 2012
12:46 pm
Israeli teachers carry guns openly, and are highly trained in how to use them, and when is the last time you heard about a teacher’s gun in Israel causing an injury to a child? Exactly.
We can and should learn from a culture that faced an unacceptable level of vulnerability and did the grown-up thing: it placed the protection of children above all other considerations, including and especially political ones.
bootney farnsworth
December 17th, 2012
12:56 pm
I can see arguements both ways. like it or not, part of living in our society means acknowledging we have a violent streak.
I do think every school should have armed (yes, live ammo armed) security on sight, as well as a host of non lethal restraints like tasers, pepper spray, ect. and they should be trained in karate or some such.
if districts allow teachers to carry, they need to be checked 9 ways to Sunday and go through rigorous training, with the training officer having the right to refuse permission.
Edugator
December 17th, 2012
1:02 pm
An angry, frustrated, parent with a gun? For that matter, a stressed out teacher or administrator? Not a good idea. We’re not going to make society safer by arming everyone to the teeth, and we’re not Israel, where enemies lurk at every corner. Keep the ban on guns in the schools, and while we’re at it, let’s look at reasonable limits on what guns people can own. If we have to model ourselves after other nations, focus on those like Japan where gun crimes are infrequent.
MB
December 17th, 2012
1:03 pm
Properly licensed adults should absolutely be allowed to carry in schools and on college campuses as well as in churches if in the case of churches the private property owner allows licensed owners to carry.. Gun free mass killing zones should be eliminated.
bootney farnsworth
December 17th, 2012
1:04 pm
a valid objection which will arise is why not just tasers and such. why a gun?
simple. tasers and such require getting close to the target. a firearm in the hands of a trained and competent user does not. teacher A six doors down might be able to stop some psycho on a rampage
with a firearm at a distance. not possible with non lethal means.
bootney farnsworth
December 17th, 2012
1:05 pm
no parents with guns allowed unless law enforcement or active duty military.
jd
December 17th, 2012
1:15 pm
Israel has stricter gun control laws than US and discourages private ownership.
jd
December 17th, 2012
1:16 pm
and those teachers are members of the military… perhaps if we require mandatory service — then we can identify the problems (through screening for service) and resource our security weaknesses appropriately
Scott
December 17th, 2012
1:16 pm
* An armed society is a polite society.
* You can only stop deadly force with deadly force.
* When seconds count the police are minutes away.
As a father of two elementary-aged children and teacher’s husband I am sensitive to their security needs. I am very well aware of how much is lacking at their school in terms of security and security drills. It is very easy to turn our schools into low-mid security prisons but that will not fix the problem of someone getting a weapon through whatever policies are in place and do evil acts.
The root cause of school massacres is a combination of three things: next to nothing for mental health treatment; federally mandated gun-free school zones; and severe lack of any useful means for self-defense in a school setting.
If my wife and several of her co-workers were able to securely store or carry weapons at work they have a much better chance at stopping a raving lunatic. There is a reason “shall not be infringed” is in the Second Amendment. Ignoring the constitution can have very bad, and often, unintended consequences.
The Deal
December 17th, 2012
1:21 pm
This discussion is embarrassing. Yes, let’s solve a mass shooting problem with more guns. Who is responsible when the gun accidentally goes off or when an intruder does come in and the teacher doesn’t defend his or her class with the gun or if, heaven forbid, a student gains access to the gun?
Would teachers be required to carry? Who would ensure that teachers are properly trained? What type of weapons would be allowed? Who would oversee the gun program, recertification? Would they be actually carrying, or would the guns and ammunition need to be locked somewhere? Would families be given the opportunity to transfer their children to a school where there are no guns? Would a list of teachers who are carrying be provided to parents?
Given that schools these days have problems doing their core job, teaching students, I don’t think it is realistic to think our schools can manage this. Just embarrassing and a sad statement on how gun-obsessed our country really is.
Rick L in ATL
December 17th, 2012
1:24 pm
Ask yourself this question: If your child’s teacher had been thoroughly trained by law enforcement to the extent where he or she could obtain a carry permit, and kept a loaded weapon in a locked (biometric?) safe at school, would you feel more or less confident about your child’s safety?
When the next Adam Lanza walks into a school, do you really want teachers to have to defend your child using only those rounded scissors?
Cindy Lutenbacher
December 17th, 2012
1:25 pm
I read (somewhere) that police officers’ bullets do not hit their targets 90 percent of the time. Even if that statistic is way off and only 50 percent of their bullets go astray, the thought is incredibly scary to me. Police officers are supposedly highly trained in both firearm use and in dealing with very dangerous and threatening situations.
So…if I extrapolate that idea to school settings in which teachers, parents, administrators, or other adults are carrying licensed firearms and have had eight additional hours of training, I wonder how many bullets would go astray? I think of a well-peopled parking lot in Arizona, or a crowded theater in Colorado, or an elementary school in Connecticut.
Despite those thus armed having the best intentions to protect others, my suspicion is that the massacres we have witnessed would have been multiplied umpteen times by stray–albeit well-meaning–bullets.
Van Jones
December 17th, 2012
1:27 pm
Especially now in the wake of the events in CT, I would LOVE for my kids’ school to have a few carriers that are hand-picked by the principal and heavily trained.
And I have no problem with parents who have gone through the background check, fingerprints, etc to carry also.
jd
December 17th, 2012
1:36 pm
When 9/11 happened we spent billions to make sure armed terrorists could not board planes — yet we do nothing similar for our children…
MB
December 17th, 2012
1:44 pm
“Permitting firearms in schools — visible or concealed — enables a dangerous set of circumstances that can result in similar tragic outcomes. ”
It sure does when the only one allowed to have a firearm in school is the criminal intent or murder who simply ignored laws prohibiting weapons or any signs on the front door which rendered all law abiding carriers defenseless. Kind of stacks the odds in favor of the murderer doesn’t it.
Latter Day
December 17th, 2012
1:45 pm
A small incremental change in the law regarding carry in schools by legal, licensed parents, faculty, staff and administration could reduce the potential of such a tragedy occurring in a Georgia school.
O.C.G.A. 16-11-127.1(c)7 states in part that, ” A person who is licensed in accordance with Code Section 16-11-129 or issued a permit pursuant to Code Section 43-38-10, when such person carries or picks up a student at a school building, school function, or school property” is exempt from the sections of the code prohibiting possession of a firearm on the campus of public and private elementary, secondary or high schools. Literally thousands of responsible Georgia Weapons Carry License holders bring their children to school and pick them up from school while legally armed. Despite diligent searching, I have not found a single instance of a Georgia Weapons Carry License holder committing violence with a firearm (or anything else, for that matter) while legally carrying a firearm in the course of picking up or dropping off a child.
The proposal to allow parents who are licensed to carry firearms in school at other times, or to allow faculty, staff or administration who are licensed to carry firearms to do so in school represents a small incremental change from that which is already legal in Georgia.
Current laws restricting the carry of firearms at schools by legal, licensed carriers do nothing to improve the safety of the schools and, in fact, diminishes the level of safety in the schools. Locations where guns are prohibited are more often the location of gun violence than those that are not. Making schools a “gun free zone” increases the potential for gun violence in the schools. Perpetrators of that gun violence are criminals who are not legally in possession of their firearms and will bring and use a firearm at a prohibited location no matter what the law says (they are criminals, after all).
Allowing faculty, staff or administration who are licensed to carry firearms to do so in school reduces the potential for such tragedies as occurred last week in Newtown, Connecticut and can reduce the number of innocent children and adults killed when the do occur — in those instances where gun violence has occurred where a legally armed citizen has been present and acts to protect life, the casualty rate is seven times lower than instances where gun violence occurs and no such legally armed citizen was present and taking action.
Looking at the question from a practical school safety perspective (rather than a political perspective around one of gun control), having legal, licensed adults carrying firearms in Georgia’s schools can only make them safer.
living in an outdated ed system
December 17th, 2012
2:08 pm
Teachers should NEVER be armed. NEVER should guns be allowed on school property.
MB
December 17th, 2012
2:14 pm
@living in an outdated system – How well is that strategy working out?
Latter Day
December 17th, 2012
2:15 pm
Living in an Outdated Ed System,
I appreciate that you feel very strongly about this matter. I also agree with your opinion about the current state of the education system suggested by your screen name. However, there are circumstances already where guns are allowed on school property (see my comment above) and there has been no detrimental result of legal, licensed adults carrying firearms on school property under those circumstances. Couples with a factual argument that locations that allow legal, licensed adults to carry firearms generally are less less likely to experience gun violence and that having legal, licensed adults carrying firearms reduces the casualty rate when such violence does occur (again see my comment above), what is the basis for your obviously strong feelings on the matter?
Guns are a divisive issue that evoke strong emotions on both sides. However, when decisions are made on a purely emotional basis the consequences can be tragic.
Pride and Joy
December 17th, 2012
2:17 pm
Of course not. Teachers and parents should not be armed and should be nowhere near a school with a gun.
NEVER. EVER. EVER.
Pride and Joy
December 17th, 2012
2:19 pm
Latter Day, you are the kind of person we need to protect our children and ourselves from. It is for people like you that we need gun control.
You are out of your mind.
MB
December 17th, 2012
2:22 pm
Thank you Latter Day. Your posts are well though out and concise. I’m afraid that my emotions are still a little raw after Friday.
The Deal
December 17th, 2012
2:25 pm
Continued embarrassment. Then again, this is Georgia. Thankfully there are other states in our country with well-educated, logical, humane, and intelligent people. Born and raised in the south, and I am embarrassed at this region’s continued backwards thinking on almost every important issue. This region has been and is the last to come around on slavery, segregation, civil rights, religious zealotry, racism, gay rights, and gun control.
Cue the “don’t let the door hit you on the way out” messages…
living in an outdated ed system
December 17th, 2012
2:25 pm
I know my opinion is a minority opinion in this part of the country. I am not a native and do not apologize for my POV on this issue. I’d probably be ok with metal detectors and security guards, but that’s it.
I am sorry but we can agree to disagree on this one.
Pride and Joy
December 17th, 2012
2:27 pm
Van Jones, here is the issue. YOU may want pistol packing parents and teachers in the school but I don’t and you don’t have a right to barge into my school that I pay for with my tax dollars and demand gun-toting carriers.
If that’s what you want, go for it. Start your own Pistol Packing Academy out in the country somewhere there is no chance for your guns to go off and kill my child.
Otherwise, obey the law or go homeschool.
MB
December 17th, 2012
2:30 pm
I’m sorry, but I’m having a difficult time comprehending the logic behind “firearm free zones” when we all know criminals intent on causing murder and mayhem do not give those restrictions a second thought.
Archie
December 17th, 2012
2:33 pm
While I am of the mind that you can’t teach a class with a piece of chalk in one hand and a gun in the other and that many teachers aren’t psychologically fit to handle firearms, anyway. I will go as far as to say that if teachers are going to be permitted to carry guns on the job, that they should be sworn in as county special deputy sheriffs/police and given requesite P.O.S.T. training. They should have full police authority over their duty stations, including the power of arrest.
What's Best for Kids???
December 17th, 2012
2:36 pm
Teachers, yes.
Parents, no.
Latter Day
December 17th, 2012
2:49 pm
Pride and Joy,
I respect that you have strong emotions regarding this issue. I have the honor and the pleasure of working with “your children” every day, and I would not hesitate to put myself between them and a deranged gunman if it became necessary.
However, I believe that more than hope is required and so have set out a recommendation to introduce a small change to existing law based on published facts and supportable observations.
Do you have any basis other than your strong feelings on which to base your opposition to the facts set out in my earlier comment?
Latter Day
December 17th, 2012
2:53 pm
Living in an Outdated Ed System,
Of course we can agree to disagree — that is a fundamental element of civil discourse. I did not (and do not) intend to challenge how you feel, rather, I was asking if you had a factual basis for your disagreement or have facts that dispute those I presented in my argument.
The Deal
December 17th, 2012
3:00 pm
What if a teacher or a parent is morally and ethically opposed to working in or attending a school where guns are allowed? Public schools are not an extension of the NRA or the local shooting range. You don’t combat drug abuse by giving drugs to other people and letting everyone go at each other in a drug-induced rage to even the playing field.
@Latter, extending gun carry laws from the owner’s car into the school building is not a minor change. Just because you say it is doesn’t make it so.
Gun proponents yell and scream all day about their rights. What about the rights of those of us who are opposed to personal firearms of all types?
Gun violence happens everywhere, not just the places where guns are banned.
Have any of your read the statistics on where the United States ranks in terms of guns per person, gun-related deaths and injuries in the world? We are not just at the top, we are many times worse than the next-ranked country, and our numbers alone dwarf the sum of tens of countries beneath us.
Dr. Proud Black Man
December 17th, 2012
3:12 pm
How would ANY armed person, unless they had their firearm drawn and at the ready, stop a homicidal nutcase? Just letting you civilians, I’m a vet, know that having a gun on the premise doesnt guarantee safety. Think people!
MB
December 17th, 2012
3:13 pm
Insuring by code that no law abiding adult will be armed is a recipe for disaster. God forbid the next attack on an elementary school come in the form of widespread, coordinated, terrorists attacks on multiple unarmed soft targets.
Latter Day
December 17th, 2012
3:20 pm
The Deal,
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
16-11-127.1(c)7 is silent with regard to where a firearm can be carried by a parent dropping off or picking up a child. Other sections of 16-11-127 are specific to vehicles, but 16-11-127.1(c)7 has no such provision. As such, I am of the opinion (with which you are entitled to disagree) that the proposed course of action represents only a minor change in the law.
However, the lack of a single identifiable adverse incident regarding a lawful carrier on school property while picking up or dropping off a student is not opinion, it is fact. That mass shootings take place more frequently in locations where firearms are prohibited as a percentage of total such incidents also is fact. That in the last 100 reported mass shooting events the average number of casualties where a licensed, legally-armed adult intervened was approximately two whereas in incidents where the police were the ones to intervene the average was approximately fourteen is fact.
The statistics regarding about the United States’ ranking in gun-related deaths and injuries are absolutely correct. However, the statistics to which you refer fail to point out that, for example, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, the murder rate in the United States is in the bottom third of all nations. As such, I am not certain how the statistics you raised apply to a conversation about school safety rather than a broader one about gun control.
living in an outdated ed system
December 17th, 2012
3:20 pm
Like I said, I do not want to get into a big “to do” about gun control right now. this is not my issue – I will not try and debate anyone with research. As a parent, I simply do not feel comfortable having my children around guns and would not want them in a school where guns were permitted. I realize that certain communities have more violence than others, but @Maureen asked a question and I gave my answer. Y’all can debate this one.
Mike123
December 17th, 2012
3:21 pm
Absolutely, yes. As we’ve seen so many times, Law Enforcement is many minutes away. There is no way they can be there at the very start of an incident.
Parents and teachers are present at the start of violence and have a complete understanding of what is happening. If they can respond in 2 mins, then that is 8 minutes quicker than Law Enforcement. That time savings will translate in less victims.
The second reason why Weapons Licensees should be allowed to carry in school is deterrence. If killers think/suspect that they will not achieve their murderous goals, they will seek other targets. The Sandy Hook killer didn’t pick that school or classes because it was convenient, he picked it because it offered him the best opportunity to achieve his twisted aims
If Georgia follows Texas’ lead, all the Legislature needs to do is allow background checked licensees to carry in schools. Teachers are employed under annual contracts which can say what the specific requirements need to be for them to carry. A state mandated training won’t work as well as each district in conjunction with the responsible LE agency developing their own school specific procedures and training requirements.
The Deal
December 17th, 2012
3:27 pm
Latter, please cite the source for your statistics that more gun-related injuries and deaths occur in places where guns are prohibited.
Latter Day
December 17th, 2012
3:32 pm
The Deal,
The statement I made earlier is that more mass shootings (such as the tragedy that occurred in Newtown, Connecticut) take place in locations where firearms are prohibited, not that more gun violence overall occurs where firearms are prohibited. The former statement is pertinent to a discussion of how to prevent similar tragedies from occurring. The latter would apply more to a broader debate about gun control.
The Deal
December 17th, 2012
3:34 pm
My hope is not to only eliminate these mass shootings but also the onesie, twosie, whoops some idiot left his handgun on the table and his 4-year old shot his 2-year old. I am concerned for the individuals as well as the masses. Therefore, I think it is all tied together.
Latter Day
December 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
I share that same concern, The Deal, and volunteer to teach dozens of parents every year about how to reduce the potential their child will be injured or killed in a firearms-related accident.
However, the question being discussed here pertains to potential changes in the law that would allow licensed parents, teachers, administrators and staff to be armed in schools. I am in favor of it on the basis of a factual argument set out in my initial comment in this discussion. I appreciate how you *feel* and believe firmly that you are entitled to your opinion whether or not I agree with it.
I am delighted to hear opposing viewpoints and open to my own views changing when presented with a compelling factual argument.
FlaTony
December 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
First of all, I can’t even believe that we would ask such a question.
Second, you can’t counter insanity with insanity.
No guns at school. Period.
MB
December 17th, 2012
5:06 pm
OK, “No guns at school, period.” Now, since criminals apparently are not deterred by that proclamation, what actions do you think schools should take to better insure the safety of children, with who’s care they have been entrusted beyond hanging a “No Firearms Allowed” on the door?
John Burns
December 17th, 2012
5:15 pm
Israel teachers are NOT armed. All of you idiots need to get your fact straight.
Maureen Downey
December 17th, 2012
5:20 pm
@John, I was just reading a site that debunks the belief that teachers are armed in Israel:
http://messiahsmandate.org/are-israeli-teachers-armed/
In this essay, the author was responding to a comment that an Israeli teacher in a photo was holding a gun:
The response:
MB
December 17th, 2012
5:40 pm
The US is not Israel, Nor is it Australia or Finland. We have guns. They are not going away. In light of this tragedy I am asking local school boards, state legislators, and educator and staff, “What are you going to do differently to protect our children and grand children while they are in your care?” Tell us your plan. Tell us how it will work.
MB
December 17th, 2012
5:50 pm
Sorry for the typos. Same question to LEO’s, first responders, everyone else. What can we do to protect our children from massacres at school, at the mall, at theaters? Why is allowing legally licensed adults (not slinging a rifle across every teacher’s back whether they want to or not, no one is proposing that) the option to carry for protection a thought worth discussing?
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
December 17th, 2012
5:53 pm
Should teachers be armed? NO!
Should parents be allowed to carry in schools? NO!
Now, if anyone is willing to listen to someone who has actually WORKED in a variety of schools over the past 20 plus year, I will tell you why.
Let’s start with the teachers. The majority of educational staff I have worked with have been wonderful, but over the years, I have met a few teachers and administrators who should never be anywhere NEAR firearms. I had one administrator prone to loosing his cool and throwing things at staff while screaming incoherently. I would hate to see what he might have done with access to a gun! Another teacher openly admitted she hated her students and wished them dead.
Aside from those few bad apples, let’s consider the logistics of carrying to holstered weapon while leaning over to tie shoes, or sit on the floor to read a book to little ones. As an elementary teacher, I have had children unexpectedly throw themselves into my arms for hugs, jump on my back in fun, or knock me over by accident – all could result in a unintentional discharge of a weapon. And those are the well-behaved children. What about the child who intends others or me harm? I have often heard folks claim that “any” adult should be able to handle an angry child without difficulty. However, as an adult, you are handicapped by the desire not to hurt the child, whereas the child throwing a tantrum is trying to do you as much damage as possible. I am a small person. I weight less than 100 pounds. I have been assaulted by students who could easily have taken a weapon from me and used it on themselves, others, or me. And what happens when a child is attacking another child? Do I draw a gun on them? Would the public understand if I were to shoot a child who was trying to stab another child with scissors, or was banging another child’s head against the floor? What if the child is threatening me? Would anyone understand if I were to shoot a seven-year-old coming at me with a pair of scissors? These are not “imagined” scenarios. I have dealt with all these situations.
And if the gun is locked up, where do folks suggest we lock them? Do you not think clever kids could get to the weapons if they wanted to start trouble? I have had students break the lock on my cabinet to get my purse. Would they not do the same to get to a gun?
No to mention, I hate guns and have NO desire to be anywhere near one! I have lost too many friends and acquaintances to gun violence. If you force me to carry to keep my job, I will quit. The idea that folks are even considering such an idea blows my mind. It is against the Constitution to force people to give up their guns, but some people are in favor of forcing teachers to carry? Where is my justice? Where is my right NOT to carry? (And I am aware no one on this forum has gone this far, but it has been suggested in other blogs.)
Now, about the parents. The majority of parents who post on these boards are well intentioned and thoughtful. I would not be overly worried about any of them carrying weapons into my school. However, having seen parents in the front office, having screaming fits and having to be escorted off school property by police… the idea of parents being allowed on a school campus armed is very disturbing. I have had parents threaten to beat me up for giving their child a low grade. I have had them scream at me and curse me out for holding their child accountable for behavior. I have had an overwrought parent suddenly explode during a conference and throw a pencil at me, when I had no idea anything was wrong. I have intervened when a hostile parent came looking for a teacher to “whup her ass” when she called child services with concerns. I have had to block my door and call for assistance when an angry parent came looking for one of my students because the child had “messed” with their child. Do you really want THOSE kinds of parents coming into the schools armed? How will we tell THOSE parents from the other parents until they do something horrible?
Until we get a handle on the violence and disrespect pervading our society, MORE guns will only exacerbate the situation, not improve it.
Bruce
December 17th, 2012
6:01 pm
Israeli teachers are not armed.
http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23572/Default.aspx
our write to fix it
December 17th, 2012
6:08 pm
write your local state legislator with your opinion. for myself I believe if a group of teachers recieved peace officer training. they would be volunteers spend one summer going through a “boot camp” then follow up with being an unpaid (they already get their teachers salary) aux. deputy with guidelines of patroling once a month. so we get numerous benefits. more trained peace/police officers at schools and an increase in ppl certified to help patrol. Conceal carry for police only at schools and guess what the teachers ARE police. problem solved. all it will take is a county to step up ask for volunteers and send them through training. I conceal carry and no one ever knows (i do have a permit) thats the point “CONCEAL”
MB
December 17th, 2012
6:19 pm
I haven’t heard anyone suggest we force anyone into carrying.
sana powers
December 17th, 2012
6:46 pm
We need to keep and bear arms, this violence is ridiculous. Our school educators working in a no gun zone makes them sitting ducks and homicidal maniacs are cowards. They go where there will be vulnerability and mass executions, but we know that now. Gun laws at this point is a joke, these people do not go to legally obtain guns and ammunition and criminals rarely have legal guns, it’s insane at this point not to conceal and carry..
Fayette Teacher
December 17th, 2012
6:58 pm
You think there’s a problem getting qualified teachers into the classroom now? Add “armed bodyguard” to the job description and you’ll have people leaving the profession in droves and who knows what wanting to teach your kids. What a joke.
Daniel Brock
December 17th, 2012
7:06 pm
The union makes the case for the need for this law. These massacres happen in places where noone is allowed to have a gun. So when the psycho opens up, noone has the means to stop him.
Daniel Brock
December 17th, 2012
7:19 pm
@I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming… – Your post shows that you would not be a good candidate for carrying a concealed weapon. Your examples you use trying to show the possibility of an accidental discharge shows that you do not even understand that handguns have safeties on them and that argument is completely invalid. Further, your question about drawing a handgun on 2 students having a fight is just a stupid question. Clearly a handgun would only be used in the case of an individual with a weapon. I have suggested on various forums that additional training would be needed for an individual to carry on school property. You would be weeded out during that training because you clearly lack basic common sense.
More guns would stop anyone who wanted to harm others from getting very many shots off. An armed society is a polite society.
Geo Teacher
December 17th, 2012
7:25 pm
Good Afternoon,
First of all I am a teacher. Second of all, I am not an NRA member, and I don’t own a pistol. Now that that is clear, I would like to point out a couple of things.
-Each of the arguments against arming teacher can be categorized in three ways: what if’s, we don’t trust teachers, and I can’t bear the thought.
What if”s: what if a teacher goes nuts? Answer: what’s to keep one from going nuts and bringing a gun now? What if a kid gained access to that gun? Again, what’s to keep one from bringing a gun currently? Haven’t numerous prior posts emphasized locked storage container (biometric), that not all teachers would have guns, and that rigorous training would be required? The point that Israel does this and things have gone swimmingly must be restated. Someone earlier made a separate point about bullet accuracy and the likelihood of “friendly fire” incidents. Yes, that may happen, it is probable. Weigh that against what we know, what we can guarantee when a gunman faces no opposition….I will take the risk of unintentionally killing a small number of students over the absolute certitude of a massacre when no contest can be given. Is that horrible–yea. Is it the unfortunate reality–yea, and we need to meet the challenge like realists, not idealists. These what if’s are nonsensical, desperate attempts to point out highly unlikely scenarios.
We don’t trust teachers: In some ways, a valid point. Not all teachers would want or could handle the responsibility. Some teachers are irresponsible. Please tell me of another organization or institution that doesn’t have some such individuals. Because abuses are so well documented in the media and because everything involving children elicits a visceral response, the crimes of a few cause the many to be painted with the same brush. Remember again as others have already stated, that by means of stringent psychiatric evaluation and time tested vetting process, only those teachers who could handle the responsibility would be given it. Oh, and the idea that cops and teachers are so different—certainly some are, but certainly some are not. How many of you have had a strict teacher or coach? Cops and teachers both want to help others, some cops would make great teachers and some teachers would make great cops. Many criminal justice educators previously worked in law enforcement. The idea that professional people who are willing to lay down their lives for YOUR kids are incapable of becoming adequately trained in firearm usage is ludacris and insulting. Of course insulting teachers has become a good sport but I digress…..
The final category that I’ve seen posted and heard is the “I can’t bear the thought” category. These responses are generally the shortest and the most emotionally based, hence, the least-rational. By the way, I applaud all of you, on both sides, who have engaged in this conversation in a rational, practical, fact-based manner. To the matter at hand– those of you who’s responses fall into this category need to wake up to reality. Is this conversation unsavory, yes, do we want guns around our kids, no, and so forth. Here’s the thing, the world is not a safe place whether you like it or not and right now your kids are sitting ducks. They are completely defenseless….there is nothing to stop a similar massacre from happening in your town. The cops you say? My father is a retired officer and I have the utmost respect for thier profession. Unfortunatly and we have seen yet again, the cops don’t get their until the damage has been done. How long does it take a SWAT team to gear up and deploy? Ten minutes? Fifteen? How many rounds can be shot in that time?
I understand the position you folks are taking and why. Schools are supposed to be safe places that don’t need to be locked up and guarded. We want to think the world is safe for our kids and we tell them it will all be ok, but we all really know better don’t we. The problem is that you are more concerned about conforming the world to your perception of how you’d like it to be than how it really is and the subsequent consequences for dealing with it as such. The consequences were stated above–your kids are defenseless. It is time to grow up and take appropriate, reasonable action to better ensure the safety of students.
One concluding thought that was mentioned earlier that I think needs restatement. Who do these nuts target? Easy targets that can’t defend themselves. They avoid targets that can offer resistance. What happens when they are met with resistance? They die.
We can debate banning guns, negligence on mental health, and cultural decay until we are blue in the face. The fact is that none of those issue is likely to change any time soon. Until then how many more of these atrocities will be committed? If we are really serious about improving school safety lets deal with what we can control, and we can control how vulnerable our schools are. Scoffing and shaking our heads at the idea of armed staff members is acquiescing to the status quo and we’ve seen how well that’s been going. It is time to deal with the world as it is, no matter how distasteful we find it. There is a solution that we haven’t tried. If it doesn’t work, we can always go back to the way it was before, but to dismiss a reasonable course of action without giving it a try is putting, in my estimation, our own feelings in front of the safety of the kids and that is inexcusable. We owe it to our children to at least try; what’s the worst that can happen….I hardly believe that anyone could seriously think that it could be any worse than the current state of affairs.
Best Regards,
Cindy Lutenbacher
December 17th, 2012
7:48 pm
This conversation is a good one in that despite fairly deep emotions and beliefs, the ideas and tone have been largely engaging and civil.
One thing I’d like to point out to Latter Day–using the same source that you cite (U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime)–is that the U.S. is deemed number one in gun violence among industrialized nations.
In terms of homicides from firearms and using the best data available, the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime ranks several nations with higher firearm homicide rates than the U.S.: Brazil, Thailand, and Colombia.
The U.S. also has the most guns per capita–89 guns per 100 people, followed not very closely by Serbia (58 guns per 100) and Yemen (55 guns per 100).
And finally…a truly enforced ban on assault weapons seems a reasonable first step. The image of a deranged person with an assault weapon firing down a school hall and teachers with guns poking their heads out of classrooms to try to “pick off” the gunman/woman makes me think of nothing but the O.K. Corral—where everyone dies.
our write to fix it
December 17th, 2012
8:07 pm
@cindy,
one of the qoutes from the teachers at the scene was we have to wait for the “good guys”; we are the good guys and we are already at school
plz, do not insult the courage of an educator; I believe that has already been shown by the sacrifice of those who attempted to protect the children; every person is capable of great things, Flight 93 is where we started fighting back; think back to what happens now on airplanes, if there is an incident the ppl rise up and stop it now; we outnumber the bad guys, we just need the tools to protect.
Scott
December 17th, 2012
8:16 pm
Lawful citizens outnumber the bad guys and we also outnumber the police.
Teachers are often parents, too, so having a teacher or administrator watch a class get slaughtered without any useful defense is devastating. Arm those in the administration that wish to be armed. They will be the first on the scene to take action and not just yell at the evildoer and shake a finger.
Ole Guy
December 17th, 2012
8:26 pm
Where in hell are you folks coming from?? Some time ago, I wrote advocating a teacher’s right…no, make that RESPONSIBILITY…to inflict the “board of education/the paddle upon the sixes of those who cannot/will not get with the program. This methodology has been in existence for centuries, certainly in the dark ages of the 60s. Overwhelming responses reflected indignation at the very thought, but now, following the wrenching events at Newtown, many of you seem to damn-near favor establishing defensive perimeters around schools across the land.
My first inclination is to wonder why an apparently well-adjusted parent would have kept firearms within easy access of family members of apparent mental difficulty…much less foster the use of these weapons in the belief that the kid’s self esteem would benefit.
During this extremely difficult time for the residents of Newtown, and for the entire Country, one must wonder if it may be too early; too soon after the tragedy, to cast questions of propriety upon this dead mother. However, it can never be too early to re-examine just how we intend to deal with kids (just this once, I’ll call em children) with behavioral/social maladjustments.
Perhaps I’m just stuck in the “ole fashioned 1st gear” of humanity’s race; perhaps my insistance on “the old ways” is entirely out of touch with the realities of contemporary times. But, dammit, wouldn’t it be a lot more effective if kids grew up knowing, first hand, what the concept of consequences meant? If this kid were truly of severe mental incapacitation, why would such an individual be (to coin an educational term) mainstreamed into “normal” society.
These are questions which, after the tears have dried, we must grapple, whether we like it or not…whether we even wish to.
Lee
December 17th, 2012
8:34 pm
Several scenarios here:
1. I am a concealed weapons permit holder. I go to school to pick up Junior. I hear the pop-pop of gunfire. If I draw my weapon and run into the building, there are more bad things that can happen than good.
The best outcome is that I meet up with bad guy and put a couple of slugs in his noggin and get hailed as a hero.
The more likely scenario is that I get into a firefight with the bad guy and some innocents get shot. I get charged with a crime and guaranteed to get sued.
Another scenario is that I don’t see the bad guy, the police show up and I am either shot and/or the police spend valuable time making sure I’m not the bad guy – precious time they could use to hunt down the bad guy.
2. Teacher volunteers go through police training and are deputized. They have to maintain proficiency through the law enforcement agency. There are biometric safes in each classrooms and only those teachers who qualify may keep a weapon in their safe. Bad guy enters the building and school goes into lockdown. Teachers remain in classroom, but now, a certain percentage of them have the means to protect their classroom. Bad guy doesn’t know if the door he is about to kick in has an armed teacher on the other side.
3. Certain administrators, coaches, counselors, office personnel, etc who do not have a classroom form an Emergency Response Team. They receive weapons and tactical training from law enforcement. Their goal is mainly to pin the bad guy down in an area until the police arrive.
———————————–
As reported in the media, the principal and psychiatrist at Newtown rushed the gunman. While their efforts were heroic and valiant, it was also foolhardy. I’m sure they would have given anything to have a weapon to even their odds.
Finally, if your child is huddled in a classroom with a bad guy in the hall, would you prefer your teacher to be armed, or not?
Dr. Proud Black Man
December 17th, 2012
8:58 pm
@Ole Guy
Well said.
Pride and Joy
December 17th, 2012
8:59 pm
I love Teaching, your 5:53 post was terrific! Thank you!
Pride and Joy
December 17th, 2012
9:03 pm
to “our write to fix it…”
No, you don’t have a right to put a gun in my child’s school.
No, you don’t.
If you want a shoot em up bang ganging school, go out a build yourself a private school out in the middle of nowhere.
You keep your guns outta my life and my child’s school!
Marsha
December 17th, 2012
10:38 pm
Bashing the teachers is not the answer. Someone said that they can not even do their job now…teach. Give me a break. All of the bashers should go try it. As for teachers losing it and using the gun (if they were allowed to carry), if that were the case they would get a gun no matter what. When someone has bad intentions, they figure out a way to get their weapon of choice. If the guns were locked up at a school and only allowed to be used by trained staff, then so be it. I would hope that someone would at least try to protect my child. That is just the society we live in now. Too many people are out to steal, kill, cheat, take handouts, etc… People expect things that they are not due. When they do not get what they want then they take it somehow. If someone broke in your house would you protect your family? Somehow? Then let’s protect our children at school!
Ron F
December 17th, 2012
11:24 pm
As a parent and teacher, I want the kids to be safe. For the time I see them, they’re mine, and I expect the teachers of my two boys to feel the same way. That said, I don’t see how any of us carrying a loaded weapon is anything but trouble looking for a place to happen. I teach in a mostly rural, high poverty school, and it would worry me constantly to have a loaded weapon within reach of teenagers. They’re too emotional, too unpredictable, and I’m not nearly big enough to fight one of them physically should one try to get to that weapon. I also don’t want parents, who are as unpredictable as the kids carrying them on campus either.
It’s easy to think someone with a gun could have stopped this guy. Maybe, but look at the arsenal he came in with and the fact that he was shooting a high powered, semi-automatic rifle. What gun, in any but the most well-trained, calm hands could have gotten off a shot to stop him without potentially hitting an unintended victim? The best defense is vigilance. Someone should be watching the cameras at all times; someone should always be ready to call 911; classroom doors should be closed and locked. Mine has been for years, and anyone who needs to come in either knocks or has a master key. What stops the monsters is the presence of law enforcement. This kid killed himself once he heard the sirens coming. The kids in Columbine did the same once they knew the police were there. That stops them, guns on campus don’t. I don’t see how me having a gun in my classroom would help. By the time I could retrieve it, point and shoot, the monster would have killed many.
Greg A
December 18th, 2012
12:21 am
Liberals believe that there is always a government solution to problems. This case is one in which they are right. It is simple. Either force every school in every district across the country to have armed police on duty during school hours, or train administration or teachers to carry a concealed weapon. There are not enough laws that can be passed that would stop such violent crimes like Newton. Like it or not, this country protects its citizen’s right to bear arms. The myth is that some manner of gun control can stop these types of events. The truth is is that it cannot. But consider that schools like Columbine and Sandy Hook is that they are soft targets. Had there been the possibility that one or more teachers/administrators would be armed, it is doubtful that they would have chosen a school, nor would they have been as successful in killing so many people. As a teacher, I woke up this morning fearful of going to work. I am unarmed. There is no police officer or armed guard on duty. My students and I are sitting ducks.
CCW Holder
December 18th, 2012
2:20 am
As one who carries a concealed firearm on a daily basis I am heartbroken over the massacre in Newtown. My heart goes out to the families of the children and adults killed there. To those of you who don’t shoot, please suspend your automatic rejection and consider what I have to say. Guns are inanimate objects. They do not fire of their own accord. On the logic of banning guns because nut cases kill people with them we should also ban automobiles because drunk drivers kill people with them. Just ask MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Driving) about that sort of carnage!
I carry my weapon at all times and places where it is legal to carry. If I had been in that school I would have been unarmed in accordance with the law. That’s the law where I live too. I would have been as helpless as those teachers in preventing violence. In order to get a CCW permit one has to pass an in-depth background check, take a class, and qualify (30 round shooting test). CCW permittee’s are certified good guys (and gals).
I carry my weapon holstered. That’s the only responsible way to carry a handgun. It can’t fall into anyone else’s control because it’s physically attached to my body. It goes where I go. It can’t accidentally be left behind. No one but my wife and family know that I’m armed. You can’t tell by looking at me that I’m armed.
There is evil in this world, and sorry to say, it’s not Satan… that’s a cop-out. Most people are decent law-abiding folks. There are some though that are just plain evil. You can’t reason with them. They don’t obey laws so passing laws means nothing. Only honest people obey laws.
Is there risk in arming teachers. Yes. Just being alive is risky. Is the risk worthwhile? I say yes because the alternative is that no responsible adult has the tool needed to defend the children otherwise! That’s all a gun is. It’s a tool. In and of itself it is neither good nor evil. The good or evil is in the heart and will of the one who wields it.
Personally, at age 56, I find the first person shooter games repugnant. Read Col Dave Grossman’s books. He’s on a crusade to ban those games because they desensitize our children to violence.
I’m also opposed to violent movies for the same reason. We’ve had guns in this country since it was founded. Only recently have we had these sorts of shootings. Banning guns will not change anything. You have to ask what has changed? What has changed is the desensitization to violence. It’s the same with sexual content. The stuff on TV could not have been on the air when I was growing up. It would have been considered pornographic. George Carlin had a comedy routine about the 7 deadly words you couldn’t say on TV. Well guess what? There might (I say might) be one or two left that you can’t say on TV now. What does that tell you?
Passing laws will only keep honest people honest, and will have the negative effect of disarming decent law abiding folks. Criminals will know this. Read the book More Guns, Less Crime. It’s a statistical analysis of crime statistics over about a decade.
If anyone wants to not be armed, I support them in their decision. They’re doing what’s right for them. Please do not presume to decide what’s right for me. I’m a sheepdog. I’m a protector. Never shall I be the wolf (with apologies to wolves who have many admirable characteristics). Google for Col Grossmans essay “On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs” for more about that.
I would ask that folks take a step back and take the emotion on both sides of the argument out of the equation. Lets have a rational discussion like adults without calling names because the other guy has a different set of beliefs. All of us want the same thing. We want our children and families to be safe. The question is how best to do that.
Police are referred to as first responders. That’s a fallacy. They are never the first responder. The first responder is you Mr and Mrs Citizen. As the saying goes, when seconds count the police are minutes away. What do you do in the meantime? Those of us who have CCW permits have decided that we are personally responsible for our safety and that of our families. The police can’t protect us because they don’t live with us, go to work with us, etc. They do a great job almost all of the time, don’t get me wrong. They are just unable to be anything but reactive.
The reason I carry my firearm even when at home is simple. A gun is useless unless you have it when you need it. A couple years ago one of my doctors that I see regularly for chiropractic was working in his garage when 2 thugs started knocking down his front door. Fortunately for him he had access to his shotgun from where he was and met them at the door as they broke it down. He didn’t need to fire a shot. They took one look at the business end of that shotgun and turned and ran. You will never, ever, hear a story like that in the news. It happens thousands of times per day, every day in this country. Had he not had access to his shotgun, that story could have turned out very differently!!!
Before you make up your mind, ask a friend who shoots to take you out to the range. If you don’t know anyone, go to the range and tell them you’d like to rent a gun and learn to shoot. They’ll give you the safety drill and show you how. Even if you never want to touch a gun again, you’ll at least know what it is you’re talking about.
I’m 56 years of age. I’m in decent health but I’m not getting any younger. How well do you think I’d fare unarmed against a 20 something thug who is almost certainly better at physical violence than I am?
I am prepared to greet all that I meet as a fellow child of God. I hate no one and have malice towards none. I accept responsibility for my own safety and that of my family. For me it’s really just that simple. I don’t love guns, although I do enjoy the shooting sports. Guns are simply the most appropriate tool for the responsibility I have.
May God bless you and keep you.
CCW Holder
December 18th, 2012
2:40 am
One more comment… responsible gun owners keep all weapons locked up unless they are under their direct control. There’s no excuse for doing otherwise. I keep mine in a gun safe. If one cannot afford what I call a ‘proper’ gun safe there are inexpensive alternatives that will at least keep unauthorized hands off of them. Again, gun owners, there is no excuse for not locking up any weapon that isn’t under your direct control. If you don’t I feel that’s criminal negligence.
Urbivalist Dan
December 18th, 2012
4:18 am
Great discussion. Read every comment over the last hour. The reality is this folks–we really don’t “know” for sure what would happen if firearms were introduced on a widespread level across school campuses.
We don’t.
The naysayers are all gloom and doom, and the pro-gunners think everyone would turn into a hero. Both have opinions and “facts” to cite and project. But we don’t really know.
Here’s where I sit: Under current laws, firearms have been banned for quite some time in most forms at most schools. We have had a taste of the results of that and we are upset by it. Innocent children, teachers, and school administrators are being shot.
Why not try the reverse for the next decade? Instead of sitting around and talking about how the world is flat, and how terrible it would be for anybody to try to sail over the horizon, let’s actually try it. The truth is that it won’t ruin us. It might not decrease school shootings as dramatically as some people think, and there might be negative consequences along the way, but it’s not going to start world war 3 either.
There is nothing unreasonable about trying new methods and then evaluating (naysayers keep your mouths shut for a second). Although the execution details still need to be worked out (who has the guns, where they’re stored, etc), I’m all for firearms being introduced to campuses. God bless America.
oh and one other thing–if you know about teachers and administrators throwing things and saying they wish their students were dead, then why don’t you quit blogging about it and voice up to have these people removed? These people should never be entrusted with our children–guns or no. Frankly I would rather my kids have an even-keeled teacher with a firearm, than an unarmed teacher that wishes her students were dead.
our write to fix it
December 18th, 2012
4:55 am
we jews have a saying: “Never Again”
we know what a tyrancial government is capable of and sadly what other humans are capable of. plz, do not adopt a victims mentality; an SRO is located at most GA schools and is armed; no one has a problem with that, right?
So what is the difference if you have several other professional; trained by law enforcement, and I’m talking about volunteers that have went through peace officer training, certified in the state of GA as policemen/woman. if somenone cant handle it physically its okay its a volunteer system.
I’m not saying a gun would have stopped him; but at least slowed him down until the “good guys” got there. creating a diversion, misdirecting fire, if someone is returning fire the shooter directs toward the fire or flees
also we need a change of policy; the kids that survived the attack when the shooter was in the room RAN out . If we are going to have a victims mentaliy then at least give me some body armor so when i charge the shooter at least i have a chance
Cindy Lutenbacher
December 18th, 2012
7:00 am
@ our write
As an educator and as one who has long defended teachers, I’m having a hard time seeing where you see evidence of my insulting the courage of teachers.
I’m concerned that having more guns in schools–even when owned by teachers or parents with training–will inevitably result in greater bloodbaths. As my first post noted, most bullets from the guns of trained police officers go astray.
Cindy Lutenbacher
December 18th, 2012
8:00 am
More facts about Israel and guns…and health care.
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/why-do-we-get-riled-about-gun-rights-and-not-rights-health-care-and-education?akid=9815.21148.BnywJU&rd=1&src=newsletter762760&t=7&paging=off
our write to fix it
December 18th, 2012
8:26 am
no where in my post do i say parnets should be on campus armed (i can not even start to say how bad an idea that is). second, when you make a flip comment about teachers sticking their heads out doorways to take pot shots at a shooter and its like the OK corral and all will wind up dead; hmmm, you need a history lesson on how many died at the OK corral and for recent history teachers did die.
If you dont have a problem with police having guns in school what is the difference when a teacher is a true deputy; on top of that I have mentioned also that it could be less than lethal ammo for them. you can’t think its just a shootout; with training you learn about things like indirect fire and direct fire to draw a combatats attention from his targets
really what I am proposing is having more trained peace/police officers at school; which I think we can all agree would be a good thing;
the next detail is storage of weapons or conceal carry; I do not know the answer to that question either; I know its not going to be on someones hip; I mean really give me more credit than that, no where do I want some guy thinking he is tough by walking around students armed; what we need is a discussion school safety and security. I think this is one option. AL has trained their students to react; throw things, run, do not becoming a sitting target. if you just want to give bullet proof police sheilds and a helment I”ll take it. Lets do something than hoping for the best and “waiting”
MB
December 18th, 2012
8:44 am
Don’t panic when you read this, but in GA legally licensed parents can already be armed on campus when dropping off and picking up children.
gary s
December 18th, 2012
11:56 am
the idea that armed teachers will increase danger is like saying armed police increase danger..
I will simplify: good guys vs bad guys, why not allow the good guys to defend children? If a sick madman wants to kill our children then allow the good-guys (teachers) to defend their students.
Clearly we have seen what happens when a madman enters a school. That school principal in Connecticut had to throw herself at the lunatic, he smashed a window to get into the building, clearly that poor woman would have fired at him if she was a licensed conceal-carry citizen..
States have lined up permitting licensed conceal-carry because the screening process ensures the “Good-Guys” that passed all the tests have helped to reduce violent crime without firing a shot. CONCEAL is the magic word here, stop the knee-jerk reaction with imaginary scenes of teachers with exposed machine guns.. Just one secretly armed teacher could have prevented the carnage.
My wife is a teacher and she knows how to stop a killer from harming her students but current school policy prevents teachers from carrying even a tiny can of pepper spray.
jabe
December 18th, 2012
1:52 pm
CPL holders can carry open firearms in schools right now without SB59 which gives a better chance of stopping someone over a school “lockdown” Unfortunately most people don’t understand the laws so they have unclear views of SB59. Has anyone commenting here even read the 80 pages of SB59? I have.
The Deal
December 18th, 2012
2:30 pm
MB, I’m pretty sure that legislation means in their vehicle, not on their person. They cannot carry a weapon on their person into a school building.
MB
December 18th, 2012
2:50 pm
@ jabe – What is a CPL?
misstate
December 18th, 2012
4:53 pm
Wrong. Teachers in Israel do NOT carry guns. This is false.
Ole Guy
December 18th, 2012
6:07 pm
Thanks Dr PBM. At this juncture, I feel that a few more issues need to be forwarded. Dealing with wayward kids has always been a problem for the adult world, particularly within the field of education where so many are influenced daily. We should take this time of “shock and awe”, if you will, to re-examine some of our practices in dealing with these kids, and ask ourselves, as objectively as humanly possible: 1) are drugs, such as rittalin and other “psycho-impacting” medications the smart way to go? While the drug companies are thrilled to see these meds are another source of revenue, just whose interests are really served; at the very same time, are these drugs really serving as a DIS-service to those who we want only to help? 2) secondly, in our zeal to “mainstream” these kids, we just may be inundating them beyond their capabilities to socialize; to integrate within society and to eventually assume meaningful roles within that society.
It is my (unqualified) belief that, in some way…big or small…we may all have some form of mental difficulty. These might be manifested in ways which might seem rather inconsequential…for example, reaction times, behind the wheel, may be an indication of the brain’s inability to process input from the world about. Using this oversimplified example as a stepping stone, one might view some of our “failings” as simply part of the human mechanism (which it surely can be…”Hey, he’s only human!).
Now here I go back to my ole saw…we as humans; as RESPONSIBLE humans, overcome our “shortages” through that ole fashioned mechanism known as DISCIPLINE. In the wake of the recent tragedy in Newtown, we want to hug our kids just a bit more; this is entirely understandable. However, on the other side of that (caring) coin, perhaps we should view the concept of TOUGH LOVE with a renewed vision, for it is tough love which, eventually, yields to DISCIPLINE, both self discipline as well as a respect for those with whom we share space on this blue bb in space.
Matt
December 18th, 2012
6:26 pm
I have copied the relevant code sections below to support MB’s statement about license holders already being legal to carry into schools under limited circumstances. The first part of (c)(7) specifically relates to carrying a weapon while carrying or picking up a student at a school building. Nothing is mentioned about “only in a vehicle” or “not in a building” or any such thing. The second part of (c)(7) covers the weapon in a parked vehicle or driving through a school zone.
(c)(8) covers weapons in vehicles while bringing/picking up a student.
O.C.G.A. § 16-11-127.1
(b) (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (c) of this Code section, it shall be unlawful for any person to carry to or to possess or have under such person’s control while within a school safety zone or at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school any weapon or explosive compound, other than fireworks the possession of which is regulated by Chapter 10 of Title 25.
(c) The provisions of this Code section shall not apply to:
(7) A person who is licensed in accordance with Code Section 16-11-129 or issued a permit pursuant to Code Section 43-38-10, when such person carries or picks up a student at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school or a person who is licensed in accordance with Code Section 16-11-129 or issued a permit pursuant to Code Section 43-38-10 when he or she has any weapon legally kept within a vehicle when such vehicle is parked at such school property or is in transit through a designated school zone;
(8) A weapon possessed by a license holder which is under the possessor’s control in a motor vehicle or which is in a locked compartment of a motor vehicle or one which is in a locked container in or a locked firearms rack which is on a motor vehicle which is being used by an adult over 21 years of age to bring to or pick up a student at a school building, school function, or school property or on a bus or other transportation furnished by the school, or when such vehicle is used to transport someone to an activity being conducted on school property which has been authorized by a duly authorized official of the school; provided, however, that this exception shall not apply to a student attending such school;
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
December 18th, 2012
6:26 pm
@ Daniel Brock “Further, your question about drawing a handgun on 2 students having a fight is just a stupid question. Clearly a handgun would only be used in the case of an individual with a weapon. I….You would be weeded out during that training because you clearly lack basic common sense. ”
One would think you might have been able to make your point without insulting my intelligence, Mr. Brock.
Seems to me there were news stories recently about a woman who died when she hugged a police officer and the gun went off… There are certainly stories in the news about officers making mistakes which result in weapons discharging. I imagine teachers could make mistakes too.
As to the children fighting, did you miss the part about the child trying to stab the other child with a pair of scissors? Do scissors not count as a weapon? How about the child who tried to hit me over the head with a chair? Does the chair count as a weapon? How about the child who knocked me down and tried to strangle me with my lanyard? Would that count? Or the child who went after another child with a baseball bat. Could I shoot that child? Please explain to me in which cases I could use a weapon and in which I could not, Mr. Brock.
Or what if the child is larger than I am, and is coming at me to try and over-power me and take the gun from me? Do I pull my gun and try to stop them before they take the gun and use it on themselves or others, or do I wait and hope they cannot manage to get it from me. I notice you avoided answering all those messy questions.
No, Mr. Brock. I do not lack basic common sense. What you lack is actual experience in a classroom which would allow you to recognize that your “solution” is not realistic.
An armed security guard in the schools? That I might accept, assuming they are trained in use of physical restraints, non-lethal takedowns, de-escalation, etc. However, armed teachers? No.
“An armed society is a polite society.”
Funny, I manage to be polite without being armed, and I would hope other people could manage as well. Otherwise, what you have is not a “polite society” but a fearful one.
@Urbvilist “oh and one other thing–if you know about teachers and administrators throwing things and saying they wish their students were dead, then why don’t you quit blogging about it and voice up to have these people removed?”
You assume that because I am bogging about it, I did not do anything about it? Strange. I can mention it to make a point, as well as report it to those in a position to do something about it. I am talented that way.
“Here’s where I sit: Under current laws, firearms have been banned for quite some time in most forms at most schools. We have had a taste of the results of that and we are upset by it. Innocent children, teachers, and school administrators are being shot. ”
And yet, on the streets, where guns are allowed, we STILL have innocent people being shot. They are shot while driving their cars! They are shot while walking their dogs! They are shot while waiting for the bus! They are even shot when they have guns of their own! Imagine that? And in military zones, where most people have guns? A lot of people are shot, including lots of civilians.
But you imply that MORE guns will solve the problem.
Maybe we need to look for the PROBLEMS that underlie an increasingly violent society, and at the lack of support for those with mental issues, rather than arming everyone for mutual destruction.
Ole Guy
December 18th, 2012
6:31 pm
Gary, I suspect you may be among the “perpetually protected”. Those who have never experienced the adrenalin rush (DEFINITELY NOT THE GOOD KIND OF RUSH), the sweat of fear and anxiety will probably never understand the hard reality that one simply cannot be expected to “flip the switch” in an instant; to go from mild mannered teacher of kids to the mentality of a killer (whether in the interest of self defense, or for evil intent, one, upon taking up that weapon, must be ready to take a life as well as to lay one’s life down).
From a practical point of view, do you honestly feel that a teacher could be effective while on high alert, ready to grab that weapon in the desk drawer right next to the papers which need grading?
I hope you don’t mean this, but your view on weapons use is an insult to those whose jobs require vigilance and the sure knowledge that one, at any moment, may have to take life or, just as easily, lose one’s life; quite frankly, this viewpoint just pisses me off.
I was a professional Soldier for many many years, however, I would NEVER consider the “wisdom” of “packing heat”, within the (untrained) civilian community any more than I would allow the guy who just flew me back to ATL to command the airplane on a part-time/as required basis. That guy had better be FULLY trained, current, and have his head FULLY in the game. Anything less is simply asking for trouble far far beyond that which one is attempting to mitigate.
Jason
December 18th, 2012
8:31 pm
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html
Clearly more guns in the school is the solution, after all canadians have had all of 2 fatal shootings in the last 32 years. More guns good answer
Michigan governor vetoes concealed weapons in schools | Get Schooled
December 18th, 2012
8:37 pm
[...] owners who receive additional hours of training to carry their weapons in formerly gun-free areas. We discussed the bill on the blog as it generated strong opposition from school boards and teachers’ groups, including the [...]
Jason
December 18th, 2012
8:44 pm
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming…” you say “You would be weeded out during that training because you clearly lack basic common sense. ”
Is this the same common sense required to prevent your mentaly unstable child from aquiring your ASAULT rifle, killing you, and then taking it to school? The same common sense, that prevented them from selling this weapon to a mother TOO LACKING in common sense to keep the gun safe from her child? This woman had NO common sense at all, she still got the gun. and then her son got the gun. Wow system must work, only people with common sense get guns. awesome job, the system works. Only the smartest, most well rounded, socialy and mentaly stable people with the utmost common sense are able to buy guns. Not retarded drunken redneck sign shooters.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
December 18th, 2012
9:32 pm
@Jason “I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming…” you say “You would be weeded out during that training because you clearly lack basic common sense. ””
Jason, that was not my comment. I was quoting what Daniel Brock said about ME.
Teacher
December 18th, 2012
9:47 pm
I am a teacher, not a cop. I went to college to teach children, not carry a gun and act like a cop. Instead of having a crazy discussion about arming teachers, which in my opinion would not help anything, why don’t we place police officers at every school…..not just middle and high schools. The men and women who are police officers have a calling to protect and serve, so why not let them do that?
Teachers with guns: A crazy idea? | Rene Kubitza News
December 19th, 2012
10:45 am
[...] schools. In fact, the American Federation of Teachers — with its 1.5 million members — also sent a letter to Snyder opposing the bill, saying, “We should be doing everything we can to reduce the possibility of any gunfire in [...]
Guns in schools? No way | my blog
December 19th, 2012
10:50 am
[...] guns in schools. In fact, the American Federation of Teachers — with its 1.5 million members — also sent a letter to Snyder opposing the bill, saying, "We should be doing everything we can to reduce the possibility of any gunfire in schools [...]
bobalu
December 19th, 2012
11:33 am
In September of this year Connecticut teacher Jeffrey Giuliano mistakenly shot and killed his own son. Is this one of the guys people want protecting our kids?
our write to fix it
December 19th, 2012
4:37 pm
@teacher
you may want to catch up on your surpreme court decisions: police are not responible for your personal safety. What is great about the ideas on this blog it opens a discussion. The open point is there would be volunteers. YOU would not be required to do anything except “pray and wait”. This will occur again: even with all the gun control talk, it will happen. There are something like 250,000,000 guns out there criminals will get them and do bad things
and god forbid someone make a homemade flamethrower, a spear, and a hammer to attack a school…. yea, sound farfetched…. LOOK IT UP
Philip
December 22nd, 2012
8:24 am
there’s a town in georgia that requires its citizens to own guns, and there is virtually no crime. if the criminal knows people are armed it’s a deterrent. if someone breaks into your home it’s better to have a gun to protect yourself than to invite the criminal to join in and sing koombaya
TeJay
January 2nd, 2013
4:55 pm
i think teachers should be able to carry guns