College funding: Does it make sense to fund campuses based on whether students earn their degrees?
Georgia will now fund colleges based on completion rates rather than enrollment rates. (AJC/file photo)
Reflecting the national trend to outcomes-based education funding, Georgia’s public colleges will now earn dollars based on how many students earn diplomas rather than how many enroll.
Tennessee has led the nation in this effort, eliminating enrollment as a funding criteria for its public colleges. (For a story on the Tennessee funding formula and how it works, go here.)
To look at Tennessee’s actual program, go to this state presentation. This Tennessee Higher Education Commission presentation includes actual data for colleges and details the weighting formula.
“The outcomes-based funding formula bases the entire institutional allocation of state appropriations on the basis of outcomes including degree production, research funding and graduation rates at universities, and student remediation, job placements, student transfer and associates degrees at community colleges,” according to the commission.
I attended a presentation last year on the Tennessee formula where I learned that all state funding is back up for grabs every year. No institution is entitled to any minimal level of appropriation based on prior-year funding. State appropriations have to be earned anew each year. The goal was to to stop rewarding campuses for enrollment growth — for getting students in the door — and reward them instead for getting students out the door with degrees.
The Complete College Tennessee Act was only passed in 2010 so it is too early to assess its impact on grad rates but colleges are taking student advisement more seriously. Here is a PolitiFact Tennessee review of the changes already visible on Tennessee campuses.
Ultimately, it is students who earn degrees, and therefore I believe that the source of Tennessee’s problems with graduation and retention rates lie largely in the student’s own individual histories – the personal and financial obstacles that they face, and their lack of adequate academic preparation for college level work. Although we may have only limited influence on the former, we can address the preparation of students en masse if we can generate a cultural shift in our state. We must create an “education culture,” where educational achievement is given the highest priority at every level of society, from teachers and students to parents and, yes, political leaders. If political leaders wish to contribute to the creation of such a culture, they must, as the saying goes, “put their money where their mouth is,” and increase educational investment across the board in our state.
Now, Georgia is following Tennessee’s lead.
According to the AJC:
A commission appointed by Gov. Nathan Deal approved a new formula Wednesday that links the state funding colleges receive to their improving student success and the number of degrees or certificates awarded. The plan, which won’t go into effect for a couple of years, represents a drastic shift from the current system that focuses on enrollment and how many credits students take, with little attention paid to whether they ever graduate.
The new formula is one of a series of steps Georgia is taking that acknowledges the state’s economic future depends on colleges producing a more skilled workforce to attract and keep employers. The formula is “important to the future direction of our state, ” Deal told the commission. “This actually is probably one of the most important final pieces in the puzzle.” Deal will officially receive the formula report before the end of the year, and the change does not require approval from the state Legislature.
The 2015 fiscal year allotment will provide a base funding moving forward, said Kristin Bernhard, Deal’s education policy adviser. Starting with the 2016 fiscal year, colleges would earn or lose money based on whether they improve. So far, Tennessee is the only state where 100 percent of public college funding is tied to outcomes. Nearly a dozen states are working on plans to tie at least some portion, if not all, of college funding to performance goals.
Georgia’s new formula ties funding to how well students progress through college and the number of degrees awarded. While progression is rewarded, the formula focuses on “outcomes, ” such as the number of certificates awarded by technical colleges and the number bachelor’s, master’s and doctoral degrees awarded by research universities such as the University of Georgia and Georgia Tech.
Colleges can receive extra money if they succeed with students who are known to struggle the most in school. This incentive money is tied to adult learners, who are 25 or older, and low-income students, as measured by those who receive the federal Pell Grant. Schools may also be rewarded for how well they meet certain initiatives that help Georgia’s workforce needs. Specifics are still being determined, but the technical colleges may want to consider work placement, while universities may focus on the number of science, math, technology and engineering graduates, Bernhard said.
The formula will determine how much money the state allocates to the two systems. The systems will still decide how to divvy up that lump sum among their colleges. Georgia spends about 11 percent of its state budget on public colleges, but only 44 percent of students attending a public four-year college graduate in six years. Projections show that by 2020 about 60 percent of jobs will require education after high school, although only 42 percent of Georgians meet that standard.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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110 comments Add your comment
the prof
December 13th, 2012
9:40 pm
I am in my fifteenth year at a medium sized USG institution. High eval’s don’t necessarily correlate with a high grade distribution. I’ve had 4.3-4.6’s on a 5 scale for just about every class over the years with a grade distribution heavy on the D and F end. My classes are almost always full or beyond. I agree with “Prof” about going down in flames! I haven’t heard a word (YET) about easing my grading although our institution has a “High Withdrawal” link on our registration page that only administrators have access too! The only change I have seen is that we are being asked to teach larger and larger sections.
Prof
December 13th, 2012
10:06 pm
@ the prof. You may also find that you are asked to teach more of those larger sections unless you are publishing or winning grants…These are times of budget cuts for all USG schools, and that means that the untenured and adjunct profs are being cut back so the tenured ones teach their classes. Very cheering to hear that you’re “keeping the faith,” as we used to say.
bootney farnsworth
December 13th, 2012
10:42 pm
instead of making more responsible colleges and students, the explosion of mickey mouse, useless degrees which will come of this would make Jim Harrock cringe
bootney farnsworth
December 13th, 2012
10:50 pm
where were these idiots when
-Ga State started a football team
-UGA was granted and engineering school it doesn’t need
-GPC was engaged in full blown social engineering
-West Georgia was imploding
-Mike Adams was spending money like a drunken sailor
-Ga Gwinnett wasn’t accredited yet kept growing
the ship is sinking, and those idiots are quibbling about the furnature
td
December 13th, 2012
11:09 pm
Prof
December 13th, 2012
8:18 pm
“But I will go down in flames before I accept late work, allow retesting, or lower my standards!”
As long as your “standards” allows X % of students to receive a passing grade in your class then you will not have any problem. The next step in writing your contract will have outcome based measurements (how many students enroll in your class and how many pass your class) that you will be required to meet or then your job will at stake.
Private Citizen
December 13th, 2012
11:39 pm
What’s wrong with going to school for a couple of years and stopping and then going to school for a couple of years and completing degree? A lot of people need to do that. -Get away from the school environment, recharge, earn some money, then go back into the fray, so to speak. Plus, “life experience” is productive for students, relevance of their studies, quality of university experience, what they study, who they study with, etc.
Private Citizen
December 13th, 2012
11:50 pm
Do they really call this thing “RPG?” Isn’t that the name of the shoulder mounted missile used by terrorists? Yes, it is an existing acronym for “rocket propelled grenade.”
Bows head to look at feet – Everything is bad all the time now.
Private Citizen
December 13th, 2012
11:55 pm
“RPG” is also a highly used term for “role playing game.” Somebody just hit me across the head with a cast frying pan and put me out of my misery, please.
Private Citizen
December 13th, 2012
11:57 pm
prof, I am in my fifteenth year at a medium sized USG institution. Yes, prof, they changed the law because they want you to graduate. You’re the one who caused all of this. The one.
Grace in ATL
December 14th, 2012
1:36 am
Ha! I know this new change does not apply to Grad school yet but it exposes the ratchet grad schools and professors have been using to KEEP Grad students in school than graduating them. I worked part time on my MA degree at Georgia State in the late 90’s. I was already working full-time in the field when I went back to school. By the time I finally finished the required courses over a 5 year span, I was not done. I then had to study for an extensive make or break comprehensive exam, and then submit to a brutal oral exam to three of my professors, THEN expected to drop everything to write a publishable thesis paper. My thesis professor expected me to be his unpaid research assistant too. I was working full time, going to school, then had a baby. They did not seem to care if I did not complete my degree. I had a fellow grad student tell me that he was desperate to find a job to, “stop working for free” for his thesis professor. I knew several part-time students that never graduated. I never finished the awful paper and did not graduate with my MA.
My husband started the UGA Terry evening MBA in Gwinnett part-time, took similar load as I did, took his last class, and was DONE/Graduated! None of the oral/comp/paper BS. He now makes more money than me..mnnnn
I’ve heard now my former GSU program has merged with another and has stream-lined their program. They have made a few minor changes to the program that probably help students graduate but it’s a little too late.
Tina Trent
December 14th, 2012
6:12 am
Grade inflation already exists.
The most dramatic “grade inflation” is admitting unqualified students to college and then giving them remedial coursework. They may be unqualified academically, but they still qualify for federal financial aid. Bodies in the seats means bucks for the administration.
Students who have no business being in college are still big moneymakers for some schools. They end up saddled with debt (which they frequently don’t pay), and taxpayers foot either most or all of the bill. The winners are, again, only those earning salaries from the school.
At the last community college where I taught, I was asked to volunteer one Saturday helping students fill out FAFSA forms. Because it was hard for some of them, the administration said, or they didn’t read English well enough. It is, what, a three question form? For guaranteed money, which goes to the student and the school.
That’s insane. If you can’t read, what the hell are you doing in college? Of course this was plastered over with pressures to behave as if it would be oppressive to deny anyone access to guvmint cash for skool. But that arrangement was primarily benefitting the administrators and faculty, not the kids who were putting other options on hold to extend their high school failures a few more unproductive years.
All this talk about academic standards ignores such ugly realities. I think imposing standards is about the most “compassionate” thing you can do for students. Many of them who would otherwise fail will benefit from an administration focused on helping them succeed rather than keeping bodies in seats ringing cha-ching for the institution.
And no, not everybody belongs in college.
Money is the motivator for failure right now. It’s about time the states make it a motivator for success.
redweather
December 14th, 2012
6:45 am
This blog entry from a while ago is worth reading:
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/05/20/the-mission-of-community-colleges-is-under-siege/?cp=2
bootney farnsworth
December 14th, 2012
7:22 am
lets see where we are in Georgia. pay attention legislators, this is the machine you’ve set in motion.
-unnecessary replication of specialized programs
-a systematic, deliberate undermining of confidence in education to cover up the failures of the legislature
-a systematic backing away from the constitutional duty to fund/provide education.
-a university system whos Regents are stacked with idiots, butt kissers, and UGA grads
-an insistance to educate illegal immigrants at the post grad level
-an explosion of courses which have no real life application (but bring in money)
-the only state in the union to extensively furlough teachers and cut school days
-a Regents system who deliberately turned a blind eye to rampant fiscal issues at GPC.
-presidents who are allowed to spend millions every year on pet projects in persuit of “social justice”
-a legislature who have fought tooth and nail to make community colleges subervient to tech schools
and all this is just at the tope of my head.
in Georgia, its not that we’re mad the system doesn’t work…despite what red meat Fran and co say, this is the system THEY have worked very hard to put into place.
higher ed is functioning exactly as downtown wants it to.
bootney farnsworth
December 14th, 2012
7:27 am
@ Tina
for awhile at GPC, you didn’t dare ask such questions. if you did, you ran the risk of being hauled in front of HR to explain yourself.
clem
December 14th, 2012
7:47 am
seems top admin people at bit universities make a heck of lot more than their comrades in other state agencies doing similar jobs. i guess the theory is these guys need to make more to supervise college profs. kinda like the lady who left as top budget person for the governor and doubled salary going to lottery where frankly it could not be near as difficult in scope. get those salaries in line then find a more efficient/effective budget formula for regents. what are best funding practices in the rest of the country?
clem
December 14th, 2012
7:54 am
there are also too many bs courses in college. why an accountant needs english lit courses after reading ivanhoe in high school makes no sense unless you want to be on jeopardy
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
8:06 am
hey b-o-o-t-n-e-y in some places you don’t even have to ask such questions. if you don’t slink around and bump shoulders with them and talk the talk, the beknighted will haul you in front of HR and invent something to question you about it. you can be minding your own business. it is like they are trouble makers and looking for something to do. it’s like in the old movies when the bullies confront a kid in an alley for a shakedown. I once told an old lady sort-of-mentor of mine about this and her answer was, “welll maybe they’ll move on to somebody else.” her answer was not based in principle. it was weird. this stuff has been going on for a long time here, the beknighted doing management by intimidation. that’s what Arne Duncan does if you actually see him operate, it is not very sobering. mandate something with a juiced up (as in injected with stimulant drugs) name and then go around and bow up and threaten people to be on the end of the point of it. What they’re doing right now is setting up a gauntlet to thin the herd of teachers. Maybe it is just HR clean-out time. Get rid of half the teachers and replace them with new young hires. Okay. The problem is that it has almost nothing to do with the engineering side of the mission. It’s like telling your builders to pour all the sidewalks 2″ thick instead of 4″ thick. Race To The Top is an ill-named sham to make a gauntlet to change employee demographic. Maybe if teacher pay didn’t climb per years of service, this would not be such an issue.
SBinF
December 14th, 2012
8:20 am
Good heavens, now in college too?
God forbid we hold students accountable for their performance in school.
Jack ®
December 14th, 2012
8:30 am
Lots of luck when creating an “education culture”. We need engineers, lots of engineers, and we’re not going to get them with the present culture producing 13-year old mothers and 14-year old fathers. And we’re not going to get them when the most important thing in a young person’s life is a pair of sneakers that cost a million dollars. Also, the idea that “isolated pockets of excellance are not acceptable” means to me that our top students are not allowed to advance any further than their listless classmates.
williebkind
December 14th, 2012
8:41 am
“College funding: Does it make sense to fund campuses based on whether students earn their degrees?”
No it does not but degrees are useless without skills. Too many pieces of paper hanging on the wall lying to the public that the certified have skills. I dont believe college graduates have what it takes to make a business prosper. Many work in occupations that have nothing to do with their college discipline. But they have that degree so the world owes them $80k salaries right?
Whirled Peas
December 14th, 2012
9:13 am
Colleges should not be funded. Students should. Give the funds to the student and let him decide which school gets it. Power to the people!
lori
December 14th, 2012
11:07 am
As an instructor in a small college in Georgia, I have seen the effects and waste of money spent on enrolling students who will never complete college . Numbers were the game; not any sort of accountability required. Remedial instructors were pressured to give passing scores to students who seldom attended classes or attended until Pell Grant debit cards were received and then just never returned. A student who enters with a 5th grade reading comprehension score (and believe me there are a lot of these) will require divine intervention to receive any sort of degree or certificate. Just the facts. Colleges want nothing to do with techinal schools (beneath them?) but this is a huge need in both high schools and college settings.
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
11:29 am
Ole Guy, you say some sat out the Vietnam War circa 1970 by hiding in college. The thing is, it is that generation that invented to computer desktop, the portable computer, and the internet. I recall reading (?) Steve Jobs saying he took LSD and it was all good from there.
Here: “Steve Jobs Told the Pentagon LSD Was “A positive life-changing experience for me.” http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/06/11/steve_jobs_on_lsd_a_positive_life_changing_experience_for_me_.html
My point is, where is your head at? what is your priority when you make an opinion? Is it on producing? All of this current control stuff seems to be about co-opting people and telling them what to do. Hayek wrote plentifully about the results of a planned economy. It usually results in downtrodden workers and the firing squad for those who resist. You best keep your eyes open. I think Americans should stop accepting so much control&direct. Also, this college campus stuff may be the result of economic contraction. If you want that to stop you better start looking at inefficiencies, because they seem to be adding up- excessive imprisoning people, paying 4x the world rate for health services (twice the cost, half the coverage). Municipalities and school systems using debt to build things. After years and years of this stuff, it is going to add up like a weight around your neck that can drown you. There’s a story about out in California, some school district borrowed $25 million and it will cost them $100 million the repay it. The weird part is that the state regulator said the school system was completely clueless as to their actions, their manager said “How can you turn down $25 million?” and that was the extent of his reasoning.
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
11:40 am
I wonder if the LSD usage had something to do with Jobs prematurely getting cancer. I don’t think “drinking lots of water” flushes out synthetic drugs from the body.
Speaking of drugs, hey Bootney, this is a completely brilliant post: http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/12/13/college-funding-does-it-make-sense-to-fund-campuses-based-on-whether-students-earn-their-degrees/?cp=all#comment-245233
should we pay:
soldiers for the amount of people they kill?
cops for amount of arrests?
politicans by the amount of bills introduced?
firemen by the fires they put out?
____________
What you are really saying is, into which caste does education belong? -business/profit/money or governing. they are two separate castes, each with fundamentally different priorities.
Prof
December 14th, 2012
11:41 am
@ td, Dec. 13, 11:09 pm. You have a strange idea of faculty contracts, even in fantasy-land. In fact, there seem to be a lot of fantasies on this blog about how the free-wheeling, ornery, independent professors will now be reined in by money-mad administrators, Ain’t gonna happen, folks, or at least not the way you imagine.
@PC, Dec. 13, 11:39 am. Ah yes, the life of Trofimov in Chekhov’s “The Cherry Orchard,” the perpetual student. Now the bane of the University administrator, who may find upon applying for re-admittance that programs and course requirements have changed and so have admission requirements. Not to mention that future employers will scowl at the missing years on the resume.
@Grace in ATL. Very sorry this happened to you, although it might have been a good idea for you to have made a confidential appointment with the department’s Graduate Director to tell him or her what was going on….if only for the sake of the other graduate students the professor had. But believe me, if there’s pressure now to move undergraduates on through to get the degree faster the same is true for graduate students, with the pressure on departments to produce more MAs and PhDs in shorter periods of time. This is not necessarily altruistic. Graduate classes are small, and thesis-only courses even smaller (one person); and it’s not efficient to let well-paid professors have such light teaching-loads for 5 or 10 years.
@ Tina Trent, Dec. 14, 6:12 am. Exactly right, and my original argument in favor of the change in the state’s funding formula. But that was then, and something else is now. USG schools already have had the Regents cut out their remedial courses for the last year or so.
Universities were notified of this change in the state’s funding formula at least a year ago. My own is already preparing for it with better student retention programs: in advisement and mentoring, and also an early computerized warning system when freshman/sophomore grade averages suggest that trouble is ahead and the student needs some counseling. All to the good, I think.
Vox Populi
December 14th, 2012
2:13 pm
College funding: Does it make sense to fund campuses based on whether students earn their degrees? …No. What a stupid idea.
High School is already just day care for thugs. The legitimate college or University is now supposed to confer “job training” on kids whose enduring academic achievement is some high score on Angry Birds. Why, we can’t expect literacy out of college students; that’s racist, isn’t it? Grades? Ditto.
The college degree, especially here in Georgia, is already worthless. Get ready to see Georgia colleges handing out degrees to freshman just for showing up for football games.
Pride and Joy
December 14th, 2012
2:51 pm
We already dole out college diplomas like fruitcake at Christmas and nobody wants those either.
When we tell colleges and universities to graduate more kids we are giving them the OK to steal our tax payer money and produce more know-little or nothing “graduates.” I already throw resume’s in the trash. Some of these fools have a Master’s degree and have poor grammar on their resume’s. “I has experience doing X and I has experience doing Y…” and I call them to say “You don’t HAVE what it takes to get an interview.”
Pride and Joy
December 14th, 2012
2:52 pm
I didn’t mean to put an apostrophe on resume. I meant to give it an accent mark, of course.
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
3:34 pm
résume
Ole Guy
December 14th, 2012
4:28 pm
Farns, I can understand your arguement…as far as REASONABLE arguements go. Believe it or not, a Soldier’s reason de etre/reason for being is NOT to kill people. Not being in Law Enforcement, I cannot speak knowledgably for police. However, as with the Profession of Arms, I suspect the Law Enforcement Officer (among the other “examples” you have forwarded) has a the primary interest in preventing/not enciting those “examples”.
The ONLY reason one goes to college lies in the sweat and (sometimes) tears which go with a college diploma. In other words, the ONLY reason is graduation; not “finding” one’s self, not having to take high school redux disguised as remedials, only to flunk out, and certainly not to waste any more of mommy’s and daddy’s…not to mention taxpayers time and money than absolutely necessary.
Just exactly how far are we, as citizens, obliged to extend ourselves, in the name of helping a generation to prepare for the big bad world? Your arguement; your…”examples”…seem to suggest that we should be willing to offer a “bottomless” cup of bounty in the name of higher education gone awry; of an educational system which, quite frankly, began the slippery slope to oblivian long ago. Perhaps it is folks who share your zeal for rewarding mediocrity who should be held to the fires of accountability. The failures within the primary educational system have gone entirely unaddressed for so long they have become the norm; your “arguement” seems to suggest that we should continue rewarding that very mediocrity into the halls of higher academe.
Farns, I don’t know what your background is; what “station in life” you may occupy…and quite frankly, I don’t really care. However, I suspect you, yourself, may be a product of the primary educational system of the mid-to-late 80s, the period of time when kids were rewarded for simply showing up; when everyone was a winner…lest there may be a few bruised egos, some hurt feelings, and perhaps even some crying.
Farns, this may or may not make any sense to you…LIFE IS A ONE-SHOT PROPOSITION…you either hack it the first time around, or thats it. That may seem cruel…the worse thing we can do (of course, it’s already become institutionalized in many facets of education) is reward less than optimal performance. We wonder why other countries accell on the global platform of competition while we insist on accepting far less than we should.
Does this answer the question as to whether we should fund colleges which produce flunkies?
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
6:30 pm
wow Ole Guy, You’ve really got it bad. you’ve complete depersonalised the student and turned them into an object of your authority fantasy. “Fires of accountability” Accountable to whom? Adults are accountable only to themselves. This whole thing reminds me of when the campus republicans can appointed to contribute direction to the University of Texas at Austin. The first thing they wanted to to / did was eliminate the UT informal classes that served the community, a well like, well participated-in program that had been going for 50 years. The rational was that the program was a net loss to UT of about $120k/.year. Meanwhile the program contributed to quality of life for the city and many of the citizens were UT alumni and professionals. They liked studying art or music or literature in the evenings and being connected to their university. Then someone noted that the city tax payers payed about $5 million dollars of the cost every year, paid for the local fire dept. services that covered all of UT. They finally came to their senses and the informal classes are now back to being a part of the community, as before. The question is about who has the power and who does not have the power. The ought to be asking why tuition is so high and why it is so seemingly impossible the cost of operating university. U.S. public college tuition used to be cheap and that’s a fact. The cost went up about 100% where I live and no one even said anything. It was weird. Not a word from anyone. Why does that get a free pass and no mention? Who has the power? Whose interests are being served? Half the world doesn’t even pay tuition. They’ve got a different concept. It’s like you’ve got a gas hungry car with a 12 cylinder vroom vroom engine, gets 8 miles / gallon on a good day. You want to say who can ride and then tell them where to go. Other places they have little pleasant cars and people pick their own destinations. Seriously, I do not know what has happened to the cost structure of U.S. schools. I went to pay tuition one time and bill was 1.5x what is had been not long before. I looked up my previous invoices. The tuition had gone up by 1/2 and no one said anything. The newspaper did not say anything. The school did not say anything, no person around me said anything. It is very weird. And then it went up again after that. What is that about?
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
6:48 pm
Out in the real world, most people want nothing to do with college. They’d rather be welding or laying pipe or be a plumber or own their own business. This “college for all” thing the politicians keep pushing has very little to do with reality. You almost wonder if it is a strategy to put people in debt, since average U.S. college debt is 25k / person. That’s over a trillion dollars now. Yes, U. S. college debt for individuals in now over $1 trillion. It is a peculiar situation, not happening anywhere else outside of the U. S. COLLEGE = DEBT. SELL/PROMOTE COLLEGE = SELL/PROMOTE DEBT SERVICE. Current sales: $1 trillion dollars of DEBT, Not tuition, but PERSONAL DEBT.
Clark Atlanta University (GA) average debt accrued at graduation: $47,066, applies to 94% of students (in-debt) there.
(2011) “Student loans outstanding will exceed $1 trillion this year” http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/perfi/college/story/2011-10-19/student-loan-debt/50818676/1
and that would mean…. $65 billion / year in interest payments? @ 6.5%
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
6:51 pm
$65 billion per year in interest payments from individuals, over ten years that would be $650 billion dollars in interest payments alone, having nothing to do with principle? This is not a projection. This is what is happening right now. There’s only 300 million people in the United States. Talk about “owned!”
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
7:10 pm
I thought my math was off. It’s not. http://ihtd.org/festivalguide/resources/how-much-is-a-trillion-dollars/
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
7:22 pm
I’m going to go out a limb here. The last class I took at a Georgia public college was online, the person teaching the class was from the high side of the academic establishment, they were feeding us complete garbage and busy-work assignments, when I asked them about the content, their answer to me was that “the syllabus is a contract” and then when I paid for the class – one class! – it was $900. and then the people in the finance dept. claimed I had not paid it and I had to sit on the phone with them while I emailed to the the documents from their website and my receipt from their website showing that I had paid them. The course content was terrible, the money people were incompetent, and the course was not a good value.
Private Citizen
December 14th, 2012
8:05 pm
maybe it wasn’t “complete garbage” but it was formula and some of it was brainwashing. I recommended some better syllabi to the instructor?professor? after the class. First time I’ve ever done that, but some of the stuff in the syllabus was just really off the mark. The current enrolment is probably “record enrolment!” but what is the stop-gap to make quality, and not just push prefab / busywork at folks through online classes? and at a high price, too. If there were 15 people in that class, that’s $13,500. paid in-state tuition for one online class based on a little Q/A via message boards and checking off a bunch of to-do assignments with formula one-liners and “insight” compliments and such. There were no scheduled class meetings online and I never met anyone in the class or the instructor?/professor?/whatever. The person “facilitating” the class was not published in the field and did not seem very aware of the body of work associated with the field. Some of the assigned resources were just awkward and there was pressure to “be happy” and comment in a certain style. The syllabus basically spelled out that if you disagreed with anything you were out of line. It is a one-way street re: authority. I think it went to null/void for me what I pointed out that one of the “luminaries!” used as example in a video was also prosecuted for violently beating their spouse and i posted the url to the news story. It’s like I had interrupted the tupperware party or something, the ongoing “celebration of knowledge!” ™
bootney farnsworth
December 14th, 2012
10:58 pm
@ ole guy,
you are very sadly mistaken if you really think the only reason people go to college is to get the degree.
bootney farnsworth
December 14th, 2012
11:03 pm
@ ole guy
awww….you think you know me. that’s cute.
stupid, wrong, and so far off base you may as well be in orbit, but cute.
I’m curious. is your worldview really as limited as your posts come off, or are you playing a part? you wouldn’t be the first here to do so.
bootney farnsworth
December 14th, 2012
11:07 pm
what really tickles me is who some people – like ole guy- are so busy putting forward their pre determined position they don’t actually read posts from the people they are pontificating to.
Carlos
December 14th, 2012
11:34 pm
My recollection is that according to the AJC, the University System of Georgia, collectively, hired over 5,000 people during a period when the rest of the state government was downsizing. Enrollment grew sufficiently to convince banks to loan money for new buildings. Tuition went up. Not surprisingly, the Hope Scholarship money ran out at the new, higher burn rate. Student enrollment peak, the cash stream was reduced and layoffs are in the air.
The non-completion rate, for whatever reasons, indicates a HUGE waste of money over a long period, but, hey, who cared so long as empire-building school administrators ruling ever larger institutions were rewarded based on ever larger student registration. Laissez les bons temps rouler!
Looks like education administrator malpractice to me. One wonders what the central admin people were feeding the Board of Regents at their meetings.
The GOVERNOR and not the BOR was responsible for this higher retention initiative. It may not be wise due to its emphasis on only one factor, but recognize that it is a reaction to administrative profligacy on a grand scale over a long period of time.
To rustle up some of that old Christmas spirit, why not triple the UGA President’s departing handshake to six big ones rather than merely $2 million. Think of it as the equivalent of a Wall Street bonus system among educational grandees — paid for in higher tuition and a further depleted Hope Scholarship fund.
N. GA Teacher
December 15th, 2012
8:20 am
The key term here is “earn” a degree. All of us who teach high school and college agree that students should earn their diplomas and degrees. They should clearly demonstrate the motivation, work ethic, self discipline and accomplishment. But what upper-level administrators will do is misinterpret “receive” for “earn”. At the high school level, NCLB has ruined this, and this new proposal, if passed, will ruin legitimacy for college quality. Pressure (i.e; “your job is on the line) will be placed on professors to pass undeserving students. What education REALLY needs is the OPPOSITE legislation: that noone receive diplomas or degrees without absolute proof of EARNING them, with jobs on the line if unqualified get through.
Ole Guy
December 15th, 2012
10:17 am
Farns, Citizen…you folks are truly a post of incredulous marvel. Citizen, there has been absolutely no depersonalization of kids here. The fires of accountability…something of which far too many in the adult world know nothing…all starts at the earliest of years, generally around the age of six…SUPPOSEDLY. This is, SUPPOSEDLY, the age at which the kid starts the process of socialization; the point at which the kid, SUPPOSEDLY, begins to realize his/her part in the big picture of society. At some point, the kid’s going to realize that…things…have to get done, and it’s up to that kid…NOT mommy; NOT daddy; NOT the other kid…to do these things. In other words, the kid has RESPONSIBILITIES; when these responsibilities are left unmet, the kid’s world…mommy, daddy, and the kid’s peers are left to either accomplish that which the kid has failed to accomplish, or the task simply goes unmet. The FIRES OF ACCOUNTABILITY arise when mommy, daddy, and/or the kid’s peers express some form of disdain; some “reminder” of the kid’s failings.
Farns, without allowing ourselves to become too distracted by the superflous, let us re-examine the wisdom of rewarding, by way of college funding, the mediocrity; the falacy of an institution of higher learning doing anything short of providing that higher learning. A college’s mission is granting diplomas…period; not providing a proving ground upon which the ill-prepared might “find” themselves. Once again, your “reasoning” skills seem way off base…a college’s track record in providing well-educated graduates has not one thing to do with a Soldier’s “head count” of the enemy, nor of a police officer’s citations issued. I don’t know if you are simply attempting to be funny or if you are simply…simple. This issue, as with the many others within these pages, begs serious reflection. Once in a while, we may find ourselves deviating from the seriousness which these issues demand, however, you appear to excell in that respect…too bad.
Prof
December 15th, 2012
12:40 pm
@ Ole Guy, Dec. 15, 10:17 am. “A college’s mission is granting diplomas…period.”
Say what? I guess you never made it through college yourself. Very sorry to hear that. You don’t know what you’ve been missing.
Private Citizen
December 15th, 2012
4:00 pm
hey prof, a little west coast poetry for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIM4gmho8P0#t=1m17s college should be fun. one local school, someone said “there is no life on that campus.” this is place where the high-brow informed me the syllabus was a contract. I was tactful. I did not retort “your syllabus is a mouse trap.”
Private Citizen
December 15th, 2012
4:12 pm
Kudoes to Ole Guy’s pioneer spirit. The problem is the last person I knew with pioneer spirit went off and did an arranged marriage with “Reverand” Sung Myung Moon’s “Unification” Church. Boy, they need to put crime scene tape around that place. They’ve got a double-deal with the IRS, same as the “Church of Scientology.” Hey Ole Guy, I wish you would apply some of your pioneer spirit to the IRS. In comparison, the entire tax code of Hong Kong is 200 pages long. I think you’re a little selective in where you’re pointing the character reform canon. I’d look up, not down. I guess you missed my post where I said $65 billion per year in interest payments from individuals, over ten years that would be $650 billion dollars in interest payments alone, having nothing to do with principle? This is not a projection. This is what is happening right now. There’s only 300 million people in the United States. Students are being exploited and now we are going into rationing resources and overt control schemes. More top-down telling people what to do.
Private Citizen
December 15th, 2012
4:21 pm
These spineless politicians ought to be standing up to college education being used to create debt slavery in the United States. And that’s the triple-truth, Ruth.
Ole Guy
December 15th, 2012
7:50 pm
Prof, you can utter all the nonesense you wish about college mission statements regarding higher learning and the growth/citizenship thing. The ONLY REAL objective of both student and faculty is the awarding of a diploma. As to the ideals of learning, growing, etc, that is entirely up to the kid; the college/university, with all the infrastructure (librarys, class facilities, etc) has the responsibility of providing the tools which enable the kid to learn. However, without that diploma, the entire effort is one moot waste. In the end, it’s ENTIRELY up to the kid. In high school, teacher takes role call, partly in the interest of accountability; partly to make sure little Johnny is there to learn. In college, prof couldn’t give two rat’s sixes if the kid shows up or sleeps off a drunk. Prof is only interested in RESULTS; it’s entirely up to the kid. AND THAT, BOYS AND GIRLS, IS LIFE.
I’ll weaken just this once and provide my educational “201 file”: BS, Engineering, BS Education, MS, Personnel, MBA, not to mention a bucket-load of military officer’s courses…what we euphamistically refered to as “finishing school”.
I’m not trying to crow on the issue, however, I’ll let you in on a few pending tragedys…you to, Private.
We, the entire Nation, have just witnessed a tragedy of unimaginable proportion unfold in Connecticut; the continuation of freighteningly similar events, across the country, in recent time. One common thread just may lie in a generations’ inability to cope with the crap life surely tosses in our faces…the crap of having to perform; of becoming a contributor; not a social liability; not a drain on resources. Your arguements, as well as those of Private (and, sadly, a few more) seem to wish only to perpetuate generational dependence on the world about without one single sacrifice toward social growth.
My last communication came from the ATL aerodrome; after a day of travel, during which I have given your collective comments some thought (you, Private, and, sadly, a few others), I am convinced that YOUR attitudes greatly lend toward the generational decay we see in 1) failures to graduate, 2) teen pregos, 3) and, in no small way, extreme difficulty in securing a meaningful part in society. Sure, the economic times are tough…certainly at least as tough as history has seen.
Private, I don’t believe your utterance about attributing the kids’ difficulties in school to the teachers’ inability to teach. This very mindset, planted in the heads of these kids, only leads to generational irresponsibility…”Johnny, why did you make such poor grades? IT”S ALL TEACHER’S FAULT! Everyone managed to make acceptable grades, but…IT”S TEACHER”S FAULT!
Just where does that one stop? At what point will the little Johnnys…the young adults of tomorrow…start accepting responsibility for their actions?
As for your last remark…I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT…AND i’M SURE AS HELL NOT GOING TO WASTE MY MENTAL ENERGIES FIGURING IT OUT.
Ole Guy
December 16th, 2012
2:38 am
Clem, English Lit courses are not taught so that accountants can go through life with working knowledge of Chauser’s works and the like. As RESPONSIBLE…CONTRIBUTING members of society, we are often called upon to both read and absorb vast quantities of data and information; to navigate the forrest of facts, and to grasp the important issues while weeding out the superflous. British Lit, for me (and I rather suspect for many) was like root canal without benefit of anasthesia. However…and this is purely a subjective observation…British Lit, as with many “nonsensical” course requirements, made me a better engineer, a better leader, and a better…person.
Many folks seem to view a college education as nothing more than skills training; a prereq for a job. While these views are not entirely without merit, the over-riding value of the degree lies not so much in the job market, but in the “people” market. Understanding, and EFFECTIVELY communicating with those with whom we share this blue bb in space remains the true mark of an educated man…or woman.
Unfortunately, in an economic climate in which the untested have come to view this as luxury, it is easy to see where these values are merely discounted and cast into oblivian.
Private Citizen
December 16th, 2012
8:32 am
Ole Guy, Thank you for opening up. This is how we get somewhere. Let’s dialogue. Private, I don’t believe your utterance about attributing the kids’ difficulties in school to the teachers’ inability to teach. I don’t think I said that, and I’m not in the mood at the moment to go back and read through to fact check, but since I am the object of attribution, it is not my thought or spiel to say teachers can not teach. I think you’ve got the wrong potato on that. Ole Guy, You’re moderately educated and you think you are King Kong. I am sincerely you have four degrees and finishing school, however my opinion of US MBA degrees is that they do not educate you, hence you shall know them by their works are you say this are peculiar times. They certainly do not teach you responsibility and action and governing your peers. Let me get to the point. You just went full-derp into cognitive dissonance and denial over current college being used to make system of debt slavery. Obviously you do not relate. You are in the position in your life to make leadership. You have experience, degrees, and military finishing school and what do you do? You abandon the college age and those who attend college and ignore their exploitation. That’s not leadership, Ole Guy, that’s “I got mine” naracissism. I’ve seen a lot of that. Seemingly every guy like you who has the degrees, the set-up, the finishing school, and the retirement in place says “I don’t know anything about that” when confronted the costs and debt in the U.S. system now for college students. That’s not acceptable Ole Guy, but it’s real. I will hold you to a little higher standard of accountability than your business school did for you.
Prof
December 16th, 2012
12:18 pm
I probably should not stick my nose into the unfolding discussion between Ole Guy and Private Citizen. Let the fireworks ensue. But I will just point out what we have learned about Ole Guy from his past posts
assuming of course that we can believe posts on this anonymous blog.
He has noted that his father was a WW2 vet, and he was born a year after it ended, which would be 1946. He went into combat in the Vietnam War in the Air Force, although he doesn’t seem to despise the 1960s Peace Movement. When he came out, he entered business, where he’s been pretty much a success. He claims that he taught in K-12 for a year at some point, though without a Teaching Certificate. His posts consistently call for paddling in the school, toughness on today’s undisciplined students, and the formation of unions by Georgia’s teachers. And his spelling is uniformly atrocious.
In other words, as he accurately terms himself, he is an Ole Guy.