AP classes and college: How many are enough?
Over the holiday, I spoke to a friend about the classes her two teenage daughters are taking this year. The older teen is a senior at a top private school near the family home in New York. The younger is a junior at the local public high school.
What surprised me is how few AP classes they’ve taken. Each teen has only been in one AP course. My friend was not aware of the push — at least here in Georgia — to get more kids into AP. She was surprised to learn that elite colleges expect to see at least four AP classes on transcripts of applicants, especially if the teens attend high schools with a full roster of AP offerings.
Her teen attending public school is a strong math and science student, scoring 700 0n the PSAT in math. Yet, as a junior, she hasn’t taken an AP math or science course. She has taken honors classes, but those seem to have fallen out of favor with colleges because every high school sets its own standards for what constitutes “honors.” In many high schools, honors courses are essentially the traditional college-prep track.
(In 2006, Georgia ended its half-grade lift to honor classes, saying that what passes for honors work at one school is standard fare at another. Faced with the inconsistencies in both rigor and weighting, the Legislature voted to cease factoring extra points from honors classes into the grade-point average used to determine HOPE eligibility.)
Apparently, neither the public nor private high school prodded my friend’s daughters to jump from honors classes to AP. Here in Georgia, the message seems to have been heard that students aiming for UGA or Tech must take the most rigorous courses available at their school. And that typically means AP classes.
That’s also what the select private colleges tell me; they want to see that students have availed themselves of the most challenging courses offered at their schools. (I was reading one of those web sites where high school seniors pose questions to admissions experts. Among the questions dealing with AP classes: I’ve taken 17 AP’s and I’ve gotten straight A’s in all of them, and I’m the valedictorian. Unfortunately, I haven’t taken AP Calc. I did Precalc Hon. and AP Stat. Most of the other top students took Calc, and math has been my worst subject. How will that affect my admissions?)
More students in Georgia are taking AP classes. Only five other states in the country had a greater percentage of AP exam takers last year. The percentage of Georgia seniors who took an AP exam was 38.2 percent, compared to 30.2 percent for the nation. I know many metro high school students graduating with seven to nine AP classes.
Some of you saw out-of-state nieces and nephews over Thanksgiving. I would be curious to hear whether they report the pressure to enroll in AP classes that we see in Georgia high schools.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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78 comments Add your comment
AP Teacher
November 26th, 2012
12:14 pm
Simple math
More Kids + More Courses = More money for School systems
Especially if they are minority kids.
RJ
November 26th, 2012
12:16 pm
“Students in northern suburbs of Atlanta take AP for at least five reasons: 1) best teachers; 2) smaller classes; 3) little-to-no disciplinary problems from students; (go to the ‘on-level’ classes for disruptive student behaviors in class); 4) padding the ‘rigor’ of the transcript for college entrance assessments; 5) to hope to get college credit (for which many students either don’t make the exam grade of ‘4′ or higher, or the college advances the student to the next level in lieu of awarding college credit.”
Um, these are the reasons that ALL students take AP classes. North, South, East, or West of Atlanta.
RJ
November 26th, 2012
12:17 pm
Students in northern suburbs of Atlanta take AP for at least five reasons: 1) best teachers; 2) smaller classes; 3) little-to-no disciplinary problems from students; (go to the ‘on-level’ classes for disruptive student behaviors in class); 4) padding the ‘rigor’ of the transcript for college entrance assessments; 5) to hope to get college credit (for which many students either don’t make the exam grade of ‘4′ or higher, or the college advances the student to the next level in lieu of awarding college credit.”
Um, these are the reasons that ALL students take AP classes. North, South, East, or West of Atlanta.
mountain man
November 26th, 2012
12:18 pm
We probably wouldn’t need AP courses if teachers gave accurate grades on the regular courses. Can you say Grade Inflation?
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
12:21 pm
While the average academic achievement for GA public school students is ranked at the bottom of all states, our top 1% is ranked among the top 5 in the nation in recent years.
Hmmm. The term “plantation system” comes to mind. It might be useful to take some of the “AP emphasis” and apply it to elementary ed. resources for the other 95% of students in the state.
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
1:12 pm
I would not ever substitute an AP course for first year courses at a top college, however who cares about that in Georgia? AP looks like a way to save thousands in tuition from your local brick and mortar state busy-work degree mill. (cynical? yes. very).
Higher Ed: “Hey, let’s just get it over with and the less cost the better. Stack that AP! Stack it!”
DunMoody
November 26th, 2012
1:21 pm
@Private Citizen … good point on AP courses as substitute for entry-level classes at college. Emory, Vanderbilt, and most Ivies require Freshmen to take all baseline science and math courses, even if the student did well on the AP test, because they believe their instruction is more rigorous and better prep for advanced level courses than what is taught in the average high school classroom (AP or honors). UGA on the other hand, blesses the majority of AP classes and gives students a bye on those baseline courses.
Double standard? These same schools (Ivies et al) mandate a heavy load of AP classes, 4’s and 5’s on the tests, higher than 3.8 GPA, and superlative SAT/ACT performance to get in … then brushe all that away by not giving credit for said AP classes.
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
1:28 pm
Princeton University freshman course:
Department of Slavic Languages and Literatures & Mathley College
FRS 133: Figures of Madness in Russian Culture
“The course fulfils the University LA (“Literature and the Arts”) distribution
requirement. This is a Freshman Seminar, and as such has no prerequisites for enrolment
other than your (hopefully enduring) interest in the topic. Familiarity with Russian culture is
a plus, but in no way a must. The course meets twice a week in a format that combines
lecture and discussion. The latter component is particularly important, as one of the main
goals of the seminar program is to provide you with an optimal setting for exchanging ideas
and opinions with your fellow students and instructors.”
Upon successful completion of this course, you will be able to
Discuss the general historical development in concepts of madness from the
Antiquity to the present day.
Identify major historical stages in the treatment of mental disorders.
Identify and describe main categories and types of mental disorder.
Characterize major cultural personages in the Russian tradition of madness: Ivan the
Fool, the iurodivye (“fools in Christ”), the klikushi (“shriekers”), the “little man,” etc.
Identify and discuss major literary texts in the Russian tradition of madness.
FRS 133: “Figures of Madness”. Fall 2007. Syllabus 2
•
•
Critique modern concepts and treatments of mental illness from a feminist
perspective (analyze the ways in which these have been used to marginalize and
repress women in a male-dominated society).
Problematize medical definitions of madness and the corresponding clinical,
psychiatric, and psychoanalytic practices.
Required Readings
Dostoeyvsky, Fyodor. Notes from the Underground and the Double. Trans. Jessie
Coulson. NY: Penguin, 2003.
Erofeev, Venedikt. Moscow to the End of the Line. Trans. H. William Tjalsma.
Evanston, IL: Northwestern UP, 1992.
Freud, Sigmund. An Outline of Psychoanalysis. Trans. James Strachey. NY:
Norton, 1989.
Proffer, Carl R. (ed.) From Karamzin to Bunin: An Anthology of Russian Short
Stories. Bloomington: Indiana UP, 1969. (Anthology)
Primary and secondary texts in electronic format (available through Blackboard
[BB])
Recommended Readings
Billington, James. The Icon and the Axe: An Interpretive History of Russian
Culture. (any edition)
Foucault, Michel. Madness and Civilization: A History of Insanity in the Age of
Reason. (any edition).
MacKenzie, David and Michael W. Curran. A History of Russia, the Soviet Union
and Beyond. (any edition)
Porter, Roy. Madness: A Brief History. Oxford: Oxford UP, 2002.
Porter, Roy. Ed. The Faber Book of Madness. Boston: Faber and Faber, 1991.
Radden, Jennifer (ed.) The Nature of Melancholy: From Aristotle to Kristeva.
Oxford: Oxford UP, 2000.
Thompson, Robert. Russia and the Soviet Union: A Historical Introduction.
Boulder, CO: Westview, 2003.
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
1:30 pm
-pardon the formatting. I could have done better.
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
1:42 pm
Required Readings
Dostoeyvsky, Fyodor. Notes from the Underground and the Double
Erofeev, Venedikt. Moscow to the End of the Line
Freud, Sigmund. An Outline of Psychoanalysis
Proffer, Carl R. (ed.) From Karamzin to Bunin: An Anthology of Russian Short Stories
Primary and secondary texts in electronic format available through Blackboard (BB).
Recommended Readings
Billington, James. The Icon and the Axe: An Interpretive History of Russian Culture.
Foucault, Michel. Madness and Civilization: A History of Insanity in the Age of Reason.
MacKenzie, David and Michael W. Curran. A History of Russia, the Soviet Union and Beyond.
Porter, Roy. Madness: A Brief History.
Porter, Roy. Ed. The Faber Book of Madness.
Radden, Jennifer (ed.) The Nature of Melancholy: From Aristotle to Kristeva.
Thompson, Robert. Russia and the Soviet Union: A Historical Introduction.
.pdf of syllabus: http://www.aatseel.org/figures_of_madness_i
Reminder: This a first year class, as what is being equated in Georgia using the term “AP”
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
2:10 pm
Dunwoody Mom, point is made. Thank you for your support. Obviously a student attending a top college would not want to skip the year 1 and 2 formation training, as this would lead to significant difficulty in years 3 and 4, as years 1 and 2 are the time for learning expected method and receiving correction, and years 3 and 4 are “time for performance” with little corrective attention. I learned this the hard way when I took an upper level course (because I had the prerequisite from a previous school) and got smashed, doing everything I could to make a C- (lowest passing grade for credit) whereas the other 49 students in the auditorium class routinely had B level work, however they had the prerequisite at the same school. And I attended every class and took 10 pages of notes every class and I studied the material and did the assignments and I received back test grades of “55″ with no curve. The professor assigned me an additional paper as a courtesy to raise my grade to a C-. This subject was outside of my field of study, it was a pre-med course but I sure got smashed and it was a good lesson.
As far as the selective nature of top schools, maybe it is a practical matter. It is said that it is unkind to put a student in a program that they can not meet. Also, for a person wishing to gain entrance to a top program, it may take more than one attempt, of even a little “life experience” before successfully applying. My nephew had to apply twice to medical school but after some re-take and re-study, made it in on the second try and is currently in-step with the demands. PS It is like that there is one batch of schools that accepts AP for credit, another batch of schools that does not. Similarly, there are many Master’s level degrees that contain either the low road of the high road. PPS A decision making academic at one institution told me that when a person applied for graduate study and their terminal (last degree) was from a for-profit online university, the application was discarded. Therefore if you have an online for-profit degree and wish to apply directly into a “real” research level program, another route may be required, like going back and getting a research level master’s degree. There is one degree program I looked at (full of assumptions) and I quickly realized that for that program and school, I would have to start at the bottom of their graduate sequence and my prior degrees simply did not apply to their content at this program. At least I could see this going into it, so to speak. Lesson in humility, etc. etc.
Hey let’s go buy some stuff at the mall and forget about all of this.
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
2:16 pm
And they were grading on “the fine points” not on basic familiarity / “knowledge.” Business as usual did not cut it.
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
2:49 pm
PS If you taught this kind of material in a Georgia government schools 12th grade class, they would make haste to put you in the back of a pickup truck and drive you to the county line and send you on your way with strong emphasis that under no circumstances are you invited back. That is for certain.
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
3:01 pm
Say, Mr. Barge, what exactly do you suggest as a bridge between the Georgia government schools curriculum and the first year Princeton “Literature and the Arts” distribution course? -because I do not see one, do not see any such bridge to get there for government school students in Georgia, and basically it is illegal for a teacher to provide one. Teachers are legally required to teach what is specified in the state curriculum and to do otherwise is insubordination and is viewed as “destruction of lawful civil authority.” Maybe teachers who deliver high test scores should be allowed some elbow room, and receive academic “clemency.”
William Casey
November 26th, 2012
4:13 pm
@PRIVATE CITIZEN: My Russian Studies Course at Northview HS would have prepared a student fairly well for that Princeton course. It wasn’t even AP.
bootney farnsworth
November 26th, 2012
4:22 pm
@ William Casey
any of the things you’re involved in have data about steering kids who aren’t ready into AP classes?
from the secondhand info I hear, Gwinnett and Cobb are bad about it
Pride and Joy
November 26th, 2012
6:37 pm
How many AP classes are enough?
It depends on the college or university.
Another comment
November 26th, 2012
7:43 pm
My daughter has taken 4 AP Classes going into Senior year. She had received 3 A’s and 1 B on the AP Exams in Cobb County. She got 2’s on 3 of them even though she was one of only two students that received an A in the class. We never received her final AP test grade since we moved and she could not remember our new street address.
I had helped her review for each class. I told her that even if she received 5’s I would not recommend skipping the actual college class. I told her the college classes were much more interactive, they had healthy debate. The high school class room is not set up to challenge the teacher, whereas a good liberal arts university professor Invites heathy debate. Entry level classes beef up your college GPA, and if you choose a difficult major you will need some easy A’s.
After my daughter had her AP burn out, she convinced the school counselor to let her go to school halftime time senior year. When I found out, I told her and the nit wit counselor absolutely not. Luckily, I had 5 weeks before my daughter turned 18, so I still had control. I pointed out that my daughter received Social Security off a parents record and could only do that once she was 18, as long as she was a full time student until she graduated from High School. I then told her my daughter would do dual enrollment at GPC.
Dual Enrollment is the sure thing about picking up credit. Your credits and courses are guaranteed to go with you in Georgia. My daughter has had real professors at GPC, with classes of about twenty students. She has A’s in her English and Political Science Class. Her score on her ACT has soared since taking the real college level class. The Professors have stated that they love their dual enrollment students, they are their best students.
I know that for my second child I will encourage her to do Dual Enrollment starting in her Junior Year and just skip the AP class. Unless she wants to do AP Art and Music Theory since she is talented in these areas.
High Schools don’t want to push dual enrollment because they only get to keep $209 if your child goes full time and they still get to participate in Varsity Sports and clubs.
Amy
November 26th, 2012
8:00 pm
I agree with Hey Teacher’s comment above. AP classes in many public schools are just tracking. The curriculum is set, and high-performing kids can basically teach themselves, thus leaving resources for other kids. My kids’ independent school does not allow students to take AP classes before their junior year, and does not really like AP classes because the curriculum is prescribed and somewhat narrow. It is a remarkable kid who takes 4 APs at this school, because the expectation is that the AP student will score a 5 on the exam. And every year, many kids from this school go to the Ivies, the little Ivies, and many, many great academic institutions. I don’t think APs are necessary, unless that’s how your school system teaches to its top talent.
Private Citizen
November 26th, 2012
9:47 pm
William Casey. Well that’s new to me. Thank you for the information.
Mary
November 26th, 2012
10:37 pm
My daughter graduated from a hs in NC with 6 AP classes in which she achieved two 5s; three 4s and a 3. She applied, and was accepted to UGA, UM (Miami), Clemson, USC (Carolina) w/scholarship, and UNC-CH (where she attends). We toured each of these schools and were told the same thing; students should take the most rigorous courses they will do well in! They do look for AP courses, however, they also look for achievement. If the student would do better in an honors level course..take that course. Colleges look for rigor, achievement AND GPA’s!
Yankee Prof
November 27th, 2012
2:18 pm
AP courses can make a lot of sense and carry deep benefits, especially if you’re angling for your kid to graduate among the top 10 in his/her school and to reap the related scholarship rewards. But it’s also worth looking into dual-enrollment programs available through GA-411. Where AP courses do not guarantee college credit (a significant percentage of AP students do not score high enough on the year-end test), passing a dual enrollment class does, and this can save significant time and money down the road.
AnonMom
November 27th, 2012
8:13 pm
All 3 of my sons took AP European History as 10th Graders (it’s history curriculum at our current private school on the “honors” track)–my 20 year old got a B in the class in public school and a 1 on the exam — he sat in a room with 38 kids and did not learn a blessed thing. My middle son got an A in the class and a 4 on the exam and learned it very well in a private school with 15 kids in his class (the jury is still out on how child number 3 will do). My oldest then sat in a similar environment for AP US in public school and was unable to continue in semester 2 when he pulled to private school because they were not following the national curriculum in the public school and he was about a month behind his private school classmates — so he was moved to honors. He then took AP AB Calculus and AP Physics (I don’t remember which one) as a Senior and got Bs and 3s from a private school environment with classes of 12 kids. He’s now a 3rd year engineering student… My middle son had AP US History; AP French and AP Biology as a junior and got As and 5s — he’s now in AP English Comp, AP Calc BC, AP Physics (Mechanics) and AP Statitics — all in environments with about 15 kids. He loves his classes. We are actually anticipating that the 10th grader will have all AP classes next year — Spanish, English, Calculus (AB), US History and Biology (and band will fill out his curriculum) — honesty, I’m not sure this is a good idea and we are in “negotiations” — we’ll see what is actually recommended by teachers and how it goes — fortunately, he can “drop down” if he starts there and it doesn’t go well…. So, the tally — 3.5 APs for the college junior, 8 for the high school senior (plus post-AP french) and possibly 10 for the youngest…. (yikes).
AnonMom
November 27th, 2012
8:20 pm
word for the wise — all schools handle AP differently — sometimes, you can’t escape once you’re in and the kid can fail and the school doesn’t care; other times,the school cares so much, they try to “boot” you if you go for help and the kid shuts down and won’t go for help because they (teachers) want “success” (defined as scores over 3) so badly…. Some schools use “gate keeping” for APs — kid can’t enroll unless x happens — at one school “x” is a certain score on the 10th grade PSAT to qualify for AP US History in 11th grade — at other schools, they use other “qualifiers” — some schools actively encourage all kids to take AP (at least one) — some schools don’t care one way or the other … Your job — as the parent (sorry to preach here) — is to ask enough questions to figure out (a) what’s best for your child and (b) what is really happening at the school level on this front. If I was doing this all again with my oldest and couldn’t do our private school (or didn’t have that information but had other info… I’d shoot for IB rather than AP with what I now know but back then, I was pretty clueless about IB … at this point I amv very impressed by it. It is very difficult though when properly done so it’s not for everyone. You really need to know what questions to ask. The reality is that certain colleges will be “closed” if the kid doesn’t take a certain number of AP (IB) classes if they are “available” so if they are there but not “open” because of “gatekeeping” — the kid could get burnt….. so beware (this has happened to some friends).
Newer AP Teacher
November 28th, 2012
1:38 pm
As a current teacher of an AP course – my second year teaching it now – I can tell you hands down that a) it better prepares students for college just by the SKILLS that it demands, b) it is regulated through an auditing system that holds teachers and curriculum ACCOUNTABLE at the national level – an approved syllabus (with sources, etc. for each unit) has to be approved by the College Board for the course to count, c) it is the honor system to follow your syllabus, d) grades and test abilities don’t match… I count tests for 40% of my grades so my semester grades were mostly high Cs and Bs but 90% of my students passed and the average score was a 4 all in my *first* year teaching this course. Don’t hate on AP courses – for students who need the challenge or are vested in a particular subject area, they are great. AP isn’t for everyone.
Independent Consultant
November 29th, 2012
9:32 pm
Maureen,
Many of the top private high schools in New York and other parts of the country do not offer AP classes as they believe their curriculum is superior. My niece attended a private school in New York with no APs, Honors or even grades but many of the students went to the Ivies. APs are only necessary at public high schools and privates where there is no prior relationship established with the college. Here in Houston some of the AP classes offered at the local public schools are not even grade level classes and very few students score even a 3 on the exam. APs vary so widely from school to school that the only true measure is the exam and this is a tough reality for poor test takers.
mammap
December 1st, 2012
8:43 am
My son is a freshman at Ga Tech and took 14 APs in a private school. He received 5s on all exams. I was more interested in keeping him challenged and college-ready. He is taking the same classes again at Tech because they are more in depth. Children who aren’t take APs and score less than 3 on the exam should not have been in the class in the first place.
AnonMom
December 1st, 2012
10:51 am
I’ve been told (and have read in books about getting into top colleges) that if your high school offers AP classes (this applies for honors classes too) — the colleges are evaluating the kids “curriculum” based on what is offered at the particular school — so they won’t hold a kid it against a kid coming from a school that doesn’t offer AP that (s)he didn’t take an AP class — on the other hand — if the school offers 28 AP classes, the college is going to want to see that you kid “maxed” out on APs and challenged him or herself while in high school — at the same time they want to see “success” — so when you ask and admissions person from an Ivy or Vanderbilt — would you rather see an A in an honors class or a B in an AP class the answer is a frustrating “A in an AP class” … so it’s a delicate balancing act to choose the schedule. This resulted in a discussion at the lovely “top” public school that I mention here in DCSS, which offers 28 AP classes and gets lots of kudos from USNWR and can “game” that ranking because of AP offerings — they are not all “quality” AP classes — but the kids are, essentially, “penalized” for not “maximizing” the taking of AP classes — so once we (a small cadre of us) figured this out, we began (unsuccessfully) a dialog about discontinuing the really horribly taught ones — the theory being that the kids are really better off if 10 really, absolutely incredible AP classes are offered, taught by fabulous teachers and done superbly rather than 28 AP classes done on a mediocre basis. The school, though uses it instead of honors classes — due to “gifted” regs — “honors” needs to be “staffed” at apps. 25 kids per classroom — if the school can “sell” AP as an honors class — they can fill the class with 38 kids and use fewer teachers so you save money (I know this is callous sounding) — My experience in 2 different private schools has AP and honors handled differently — my sons were in classes of 8-15 (max 18) and it’s been “fluid” if the class wasn’t seen as a “good fit” – the school (both of them) worked very quickly — to adjust the level (from AP to honors or from one honors to a different honors). I hope this helps people…. It’s not all the same and colleges seem to really work to carefully understand what is really happening within each high school — this is why they — the colleges — assign regional reps throughout the country — so the colleges can become familiar with the high schools are really learn them and how they work. They are looking to see if the kid can do the work that the college is ultimately going to offer….. (can you tell I’ve been buried in the college process for 4 years now?).