President Obama, Congress face ticking education time bombs: Fiscal cliff, college costs and student loan deadline

John Konop steered me to this article from on the compelling education policy challenges facing President Obama and Congress.

Seems like a lot to get done, some of which has to be done in a matter of weeks.

Here is an excerpt but try to read the full piece before commenting:

…First up is sequestration, the automatic, government-wide spending cuts set to knock out 8.2 percent of the funding to almost all of the Education Department’s programs — unless Congress acts before the end of the year to avert the cuts.

Programs intended to reduce educational inequities will take a hit of $1.3 billion, according to the White House’s Office of Management and Budget. Special education, already funded far below the levels Congress originally promised, will be slashed by more than $1 billion. Most of the reductions won’t take effect until next fall, when the 2013-14 school year starts, but Impact Aid, which helps districts that lose revenue due to local tax-exempt federal property, would be cut immediately.

Education advocates are optimistic a plan will be hashed out that will leave most major education programs relatively unscathed.

“Even Republicans understand that cutting education spending is not something that is popular with voters,” said Michael Petrilli, a former Education Department official and executive vice president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, a conservative education think tank…..

… In Congress, both parties agree that college costs are spiraling out of control, but there’s not much government can do to control that. What it can control is student aid, and the debate about federal loans raises a familiar disagreement about the role of government. In 2010, when Democrats controlled both chambers of Congress, the federal government cut banks out of the process and started administering all loans directly. Many Republicans favor restoring the private sector’s role in issuing federally backed and subsidized loans.

Higher ed also comes with a delicate set of ticking time bombs. Student loan interest rates, capped at 3.4 percent for new subsidized Stafford loans, are set to double July 1, the expiration date for a stopgap Congress passed last year. Pell Grants, the main source of federal aid for low-income students, face the same type of crisis as entitlements like Medicare and Social Security: a cost curve that’s become difficult to contain as more people take part……

.. Lawmakers are more than half a decade overdue to reauthorize the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. The Education Department has been copiously granting waivers to No Child Left Behind, the Bush-era iteration of the act, giving states flexibility with performance targets.

There’s bipartisan agreement in Congress that the law should be fixed and reauthorized. “While the administration’s efforts to grant waivers are helpful for states operating under the tenets of No Child Left Behind, these fixes are temporary and piecemeal,” Sen. Tom Harkin, the Democrat who chairs the Senate committee responsible for education, said in an email.

But the Obama administration has shown little desire to put the policy back in lawmakers’ hands. Duncan didn’t mention reauthorization in a lengthy speech in October laying out his agenda.

“Waivers are not a pass on accountability, but a smarter, more focused and fair way to hold ourselves accountable,” Duncan said in that speech.

–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog

91 comments Add your comment

Pride and Joy

November 20th, 2012
8:46 am

Sequestration, I welcome it.
When educrats are forced to make big cuts they won’t be allowed to get away with always cutting the most important people — the teachers.
In times of real austerity, if an educrat dared to cut many teachers instead of many admin positions, they’d be run out on a rail, tarred and feathered, which is what they’ve deserved for years but didn’t get because the government was always pouring money into the pit, my money.
Bring on the cuts. I welcome them so that we can cut administrative nonsense positions, administrative ridiculous travel expenses and eliminate the “friends and family” jobs program.


November 20th, 2012
8:48 am

A responsible Government would have long since gotten to work on these issues in order to make the best possible choices for the people.

Unfortunately, our Government is anything but responsible. So, look for a last minute quick fix that will only exacerbate the problems.


November 20th, 2012
9:14 am

“Education advocates are optimistic a plan will be hashed out that will leave most major education programs relatively unscathed.”

And thus, the problem.

EVERYBODY, bar none, thinks their pet program should be maintained and spending cut somewhere else. I’m beginning to think this county is too far gone. If you wanted the Titanic to miss the iceberg, you should have turned the rudder 30 years ago.

I fear for our grandchildren. I really do.

Mountain Man

November 20th, 2012
9:20 am

Talking about the fiscal cliff – if you take social security (which is in the black still) and medicare, and transportation out of the budgeting process (they all have their own dedicated revenue streams), then defense makes up nearly 40% of the remaining budget. I am talking about ALL defense costs – Department of Homeland Security, DOD, war expenses (have bbeen “off-budget”), veterans benefits. Interest is 17%, and Medicaid is 12% (and growing, unfortunately). Of that Medicaid number – 25% goes to nursing home care for seniors. So where do we need to cut spending the most?

Less Govt Please

November 20th, 2012
9:53 am

“… In Congress, both parties agree that college costs are spiraling out of control, but there’s not much government can do to control that.”

It’s Government that has caused the cost of college education to sky rocket. They provide the guaranteed loans which is the catalyst for colleges and universities to raise tuition. Why not if the governement is picking up the tab!

Mortimer Collins

November 20th, 2012
9:56 am

Perhaps parents should rely less on the govt and more on themselves but I guess thats asking to much from these “adults”.


November 20th, 2012
10:00 am

Vacation week for bloggers. The only part of the above that caught my eye was this true statement:

“Education advocates are optimistic a plan will be hashed out that will leave most major education programs relatively unscathed.”

There will be no snap back on over decade old tax rates, or sequestration – even if a “Grand Bargain” is not struck. It will all be postponed well into next year for the new Congress to hash out with Obama. Kicking the can down the road is what Congress does best.


November 20th, 2012
10:04 am

Let’s hope the cuts go into effect. The quicker the Feds get out of education the quicker it will improve.

Roxanne Pilat

November 20th, 2012
10:05 am

Student Loan update


November 20th, 2012
10:15 am

Congress always has a crisis they need to “fix”. They created this so-called fiscal cliff and now want to be alarmists over what they should have done last year. No sympathy here because we get what we vote for.


November 20th, 2012
10:26 am

Pride and Joy
You only need look at DeKalb to see that what you wrote isn’t true. A board member recently showed that spending on the central office has actually increased in DeKalb this year. It is pathetic and rather scary that bureaucrats can’t seem to help themselves. Atkinson clearly believes that what happens at the Central Office is far more important than what happens in schools.

Hillbilly D

November 20th, 2012
11:27 am

Kicking the can down the road is what Congress does best.

The quicker the Feds get out of education the quicker it will improve.

I agree with both of those.

bootney farnsworth

November 20th, 2012
11:36 am

a decade ago there was fierce competition in the student loan arena, and the prices were a good bit lower than they are now. today the fed is virtually the only game in town, and the prices show it.

seems the gov’t hated monopolies – except their own.

that, more than any reason, is why the cost of higher ed has skyrocketed in the last decade. when the money does not come directly out of your pocket, you quit paying attention to what things cost

bootney farnsworth

November 20th, 2012
11:39 am

congress has no interest in cutting costs in higher ed. lessen the costs, lessen the control

Pride and Joy

November 20th, 2012
12:26 pm

Concernedmom30329 — it hasn’t been “that bad” yet. When teachers are cut and cut and cut and there are 40 students in an elementary classroom, there will be protests, walk outs, raising Cain.
For too long, Wal-Mart has wiped its feet on the backs and faces of its own employees and FINALLy they had enough and are unionizing and protesting and walking out. It’s THAT bad.
When the government stops giving money to school systems and things get that bad — teachers and parents will protest together and walk out. I’ve got my picket sign ready — and I’m willing — are you?

Alan Collinge

November 20th, 2012
12:44 pm

” In Congress, both parties agree that college costs are spiraling out of control, but there’s not much government can do to control that.”

…This comment is absolutely, and ridiculously FALSE. Congress can, and must return standard bankruptcy protections to all student loans. Why? Because until they do, the Department of Education will have an inexcusable fiscal motivation to encourage default rather than normal repayment. Only bankruptcy can ensure that if the students lose, the government also loses. This is an ESSENTIAL element of any healthy lending system, and in its absence, it has been shown clearly that the student loan system becomes predatory, and inflationary.

When the government actually is losing a non-trivial amount of money on defaults (such as what bankruptcy will accomplish), The Department of Education won’t be so quick to look the other way every time Congress raises the lending limits. In fact, given the default rate currently of 16% in the first three years, Id say Congress needs to recommend lowering the lending limits, kicking a large number of schools (mostly for-profit) out of the system, and firing the entire decision making staff at the Office of Federal Student Aid. These people are, and have always been corporate plants from Sallie Mae, NCHELP, and a plethora of other lending companies who have attached themselves to the Department of Education for the purpose of getting as much money for as little work. These people don’t work for the taxpayers/citizens. They disdain the borrowers, and abuse the taxpayers like pinyatas. There will be no problems replacing them with actual public servants who want to do right by the citizens. Then, prices will come down. This is the ONLY WAY to get prices, borrowing down, degree value up, defaults down, and the public from taking up torches and pitchforks to Washington DC and wreaking havoc on the bad faithed, bad citizens who orchestrated this.

I’m guessing the author is Doug Lederman’s little brother or something so I’ll take it easy on him…but please…don’t make claims like you just made for another 5-10 years if you aren’t actually sure of it. Don’t repeat what the banking lobbyists, or ED bureaucrats whisper in your ear. They almost always exagerrate the truth to the point of being a lie. I suspect they assured you that government was powerless to control price, when in fact the opposite is true…its a very direct relationship between a reduction in loan availability and the price of tuition. When one dives, so must the other follow. See

John Konop

November 20th, 2012
12:54 pm

I have said it many times on this blog, that with money getter tighter, public education needs to tighten the belt and increase quality at the same time. The formula that would work is consolidating high schools and colleges/Vo-tech/JC asap with facility, administration and facilities. Also we need to increase on line/home school options combined with joint enrollment options. Finally we need to leverage college students, community volunteers and the chamber to help supplement the classroom as well as provide internships/co-op jobs.

Jack ®

November 20th, 2012
1:01 pm

Despite any cuts to education funding, a child can still get a good education if the child has caring parents that are capable of assisting in his/her studies. Big IF there. I have a grandchild in the 5th grade (public school) that’s reading at a 12th grade level. She’s from a two-parent home and her mother was teaching her to read before the child was able to walk.


November 20th, 2012
1:33 pm

The above comments are why I don’t post many serious remarks here nor use my real name…when I even bother to post comments in the first place. Virtually all of the suggestions are terrible and/or depressing to read, and my directly questioning any of them will mean I have to waste my time arguing with someone’s indestructable version of “common sense” for hours on end. So the only thing I can do here is crack jokes, roleplay, or talk about how I wish this place was moderated like Something Awful. Even making people pay $10 to post here would cut down on the dribble and make people, I don’t know, actually use peer-reviewed literature to back up their ideas for once? A person can dream, can’t they?

John Konop

November 20th, 2012
1:44 pm


………… Virtually all of the suggestions are terrible and/or depressing to read, and my directly questioning any of them will mean I have to waste my time arguing with someone’s indestructable version of “common sense” for hours on end……..

In all due respect please help me understand why my suggestions are so “terrible’?


November 20th, 2012
1:56 pm


November 20th, 2012
1:33 pm
I would not pay for the AJC much pay to talk to a prima donna like you.

DeKalb Inside Out

November 20th, 2012
2:01 pm

Education tighten their belts … Ha! According to the US DOE, spending per student is as high as it’s ever been in Georgia.

Even when ordered by the board administrations refuse to make cuts aside from RIFing teachers.


November 20th, 2012
2:13 pm


HS Public Teacher

November 20th, 2012
2:35 pm

@Pride and Joy,

You make a rather large and incorrect assumption. You said that with budget cuts, the educats will not be able to cut teachers.

That is so wrong. Look to history. The educrats historically continue to give themselves pay raises while cutting teacher salaries and teacher positions. Why do you think that class sizes have exploded over the past few years?

Teachers are being asked to handle large increases in class sizes and also to take on additional work within the school so that other positions can be reduced as well. In some schools, teachers are asked to perform custodial work.

Of course, what I am referring to happens in Georgia where there is no real teacher union to protect teachers or to have any type of “checks and balances” with the educrats.

Pride and Joy

November 20th, 2012
2:40 pm

HS Public Teacher — it’s not that bad yet.
When I was in high school, we had 40 in my English class.
When studetns are crammed 40 to a classroom in elementary school and when things really get bad enough, change will come — but as long as the feds keep taking my money and giving it to crooked boards who keep it for themselves without making horrific cuts in the classroom, the “friends and family” plans will continue.
It has to be bad enough for teachers and parent to protest and walk out.
It’s just not that bad enough right now. When was the last time teachers protested or walked off their jobs in GA?

Pride and Joy

November 20th, 2012
2:41 pm

and HS Public gteacher — it is YOUR job to do what it takes to form a union for teachers.
You complain there “are no unions” to protect you. Then protest, walk out, picket, change the laws — DO something. Except blog.


November 20th, 2012
2:49 pm

“In Congress, both parties agree that college costs are spiraling out of control, but there’s not much government can do to control that.”

The federal government is by far the number one driver of inflation in higher education. It has increased the demand for seats in college classrooms by encouraging misfits to aspire and apply to colleges, and has subsidized the purchase of higher education through a panoply of gifts such as Pell grants, far below market interest loans and more specialized targeted “grants.” State programs such as Hope have exacerbated the upward pressures on prices, and colleges have little incentive to control costs when third parties are perceived to be footing the bills.

I doubt anyone reading or contributing to this blog is old enough to remember when federally guaranteed student loans were readily dischargable in bankruptcy. The hardship exception has been tightened over the years, but has existed since at least the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 1978. And, making it easier to discharge student loans will put upward, not downward, pressures on prices as borrowers will be less wary of borrowing for imprudent educational objectives. Finally, now that the federal government has expropriated (from private lenders) the lion’s share of federally insured student loan business we can expect even more pandering to college students in exchange for their votes–hardly a prescription for controlling costs.

@ pride and joy

November 20th, 2012
2:54 pm

You are right. It is time for teachers to follow in the footsteps of Walmart’s employees and walk out. Teachers are expected to perform too many duties on the pay that they receive. People who vent and blame everything on teachers need to spend one day in the classroom. That is all that it would take for them to stop blaming society’s problems on teachers. You could not pay unemployed degreed people to assume he role of a teacher. They would not last a day.


November 20th, 2012
3:08 pm

One thing that no one here has mentioned is the mandated standard of care that has ballooned SPED costs. When we begin to see cuts in funding without relaxation of standards in some areas, the pain of the cuts will be unfiarly attributed to the regular ed and the honors/AP level students. Sports and the Arts will disappear. I am not advocating for dismantling the SPED programs, but I am advocating for a fair appraoch to budget cuts. If you cut the SPED funding (already underfunded) by 10%, the SPED per-pupil expense should be cut by 10%. A “managed” approach to absobtion of the funding cuts.
Also, the adminstrators do not simply give themselves pay raises. Your local school board controls the budget and the raises given. The federal and state governments, with their rmandates for tracking and reporting created additonal positions. In our local district the administrators are all working 50 to 60 hour weeks for 50 weeks. The teachers work 35 hour weeks and work far fewer days. In fact, if you paid everyone on a per diem you’d find most teachers with more that 10 years on the job earn more per day than the administrators.

John Konop

November 20th, 2012
3:46 pm


………..Education tighten their belts … Ha! According to the US DOE, spending per student is as high as it’s ever been in Georgia.
Even when ordered by the board administrations refuse to make cuts aside from RIFing teachers……..

In fairness districts like Cherokee County have cut back on expenses as you know. Second when you factor in fuel prices, teacher raises, healthcare cost….. the dollar amounts per pupil have not kept up with inflation. With that said via the economy we need to cut back, as I suggested, but we should look at it by district not macro state numbers, and by services provided.
Unless we consolidate resources better we cannot afford the current education model and provide the same level of services.


November 20th, 2012
5:18 pm

It is not clear to me that Federal Government involvement in education has had any meaningful results. On the contrary, the ceaseless issuance of standards, measures, programs, loans, etc. have reulted in greatly increased expenditures per puplil, increased administration, harassed teachers and less and less competitive high school and college graduates. It’s possible that the Department of Education had good intentions; I don’t know as I don’t know the people involved. However, what is indisputable is that we are spending vast sums for little or no improvement in results.

On the college level, I graduated from Georgia Tech in 1967. At that time, it was possible to attend for a year (3 quarters) for $1500. Inflating that at the 3.5% rate of CPI for 45 years would yield a sum of little more than half the cost for a 2 semester year for current in state students. The extra costs may fund more enjoyable facilities for students, more administrative positions, and whatever else – but the graduates were as highly valued then as now. I had 30 job interviews at graduation and 27 offers – so from my perspective, the extra cost currently funds something other than results.

Sequestration is nothing more than a political chicken game, with no real intention of doing anything. So, I would guess that Education spending by the Feds will continue as usual, and resutls or lack of same will continue as well.

Pride and Joy

November 20th, 2012
6:17 pm

To @Pride and Joy…
You’ve misunderstood. I don’t advocate teachers walking out because their job is too hard or the pay is too little. I advocate walking out because of administrative corruption.
Teaching conditions and pay have greatly improved since I was a kid and in this awful economy, teachers are earning a wonderful salary and benefits.

Bill Campbell

November 20th, 2012
6:24 pm

With no leadership ability from Obama..don’t expect anything but more lies!


November 20th, 2012
6:38 pm

the only people in this country who should be allowed to vote are the people PULLING THE CART , the ones who are on the cart and receive welfare , food stamps and other goodies and dont pay income tax SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO VOTE!!! that would solve most the problems in this country. let the ones amongst us who were smart and tough enough to make a success of themselves in this country VOTE and lead this country. and make it the greatest country on earth like it USED TO BE. why in the hell do we want people who dont work, dont want to work, who have multiple children that they cant take care of VOTE?? why do we want uneducated lazy slobs vote? why do we want people who are not citizens of the united states to vote?? do you think these people have the CAPACITY TO KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR AMERICA??? DO YOU REALLY THINK THESE PEOPLE ARE CAPABLE OF RUNNING THIS COUNRTY ? DO YOU THINK THIS COUNTRY WOULD HAVE BECOME THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH IN SUCH A SHORT TIME IF THESE PEOPLE WERE RUNNING THE COUNTRY ??

Progressive Humanist

November 20th, 2012
6:58 pm

gsmith- Due to tax reductions pushed by Republicans over the years, nearly 50% of the people in this country don’t end up paying income tax, including nearly everyone who makes $50k a year or less, owns a home, and has children, once the deductions are calculated. Are you in that group? Because if so, according to your own criteria you shouldn’t be allowed to vote. So you think that only those who make $50k a year or more should be able to vote? Great idea there. Good luck with that. And why all the yelling? Do you think you’ll convince more people if you write in all caps?


November 20th, 2012
7:55 pm

If the Feds don’t send the money the state will come get it from you. Get ready, since they have done away with the so called birthday tax the only way local government can raise funds in by property taxes and they will skyrocket

South Georgia

November 20th, 2012
8:32 pm

Get the feds out of education. The feds have driven the cost of college up by creating false demand through Pell and unsecured loans for anyone who can sneeze. The regulation is unbearable. Colleges are spending tremendous amount of money keeping records and maintaining useless compliance info that is of no value because USDOE will loan money to a SPAM sandwich.

Truth in Moderation

November 21st, 2012
1:42 am
Well, there’s always hope. If this Harvard dropout can become a “BILL”IONAIRE, there is hope for those who “Think Different”. They can become billionaires as well. School is an obstructionist of genius, pouring malleable minds into unbreakable molds, keeping high-minded nails hammered down. Yet history has shown us that one’s yearning for inspiration and the sublime cannot be suppressed, but bursts forth as the ripened fruit of personal passion.
Enter the Apple….and Steve. He has shown us a different way.

Progressive Humanist

November 21st, 2012
7:53 am

Great idea. Everyone should just become a billionaire by inventing new technology. It’s so simple. Why didn’t someone think of that before? And we could have all the doctors, teachers, and engineers bypass college too, open their own personal practices, and just use their “personal passion” and creativity to do the things they do, sans education. Brilliant!

Private Citizen

November 21st, 2012
8:02 am

Gates is a crook. He’s been fined a billion dollars for anti-trust violations. I stopped using Microsoft computing 15 years ago, and don’t use Apple either. So go figure that out. I probably do more computing than most folks, too. no gimmicks for me

By the way, I use the same type operating system used to run Google and And a few aircraft carriers, too. This same approach is filtering down to the Android phones, different form factor, same underpinnings.

Private Citizen

November 21st, 2012
9:27 am

what is indisputable is that we are spending vast sums for little or no improvement in results

Oh don’t you worry. Someone will author a press release to fix that.

Truth in Moderation

November 21st, 2012
11:33 am

“Steve Jobs insult response”

He says to BEGIN with the customer. This is something public schools have failed to do. They were designed in the Prussian style top-down control with the purpose to produce citizens subservient to the State. It is interesting to note that Steve Jobs’ biological parents were snobby ACADEMICS who lacked self control and had a baby out of wedlock while still in college. A humble blue-collar couple (Steve’s dad was a mechanic) were thrilled to adopt him, but the birth mother made them promise to send him to college. Thankfully, Steve himself rejected that path, and the rest is history.

Progressive Humanist

November 21st, 2012
12:12 pm

I love when the nutcases present anecdotal “evidence” based on a sample of one (n =1) and suggest that that’s how everything works. The anomaly because the rule written in stone. But it’s common for delusional cult members to suggest that knowledge, education, and science are bad things. I just feel bad for their children.

Truth in Moderation

November 21st, 2012
1:07 pm

@Digressive Humanist
So, you claim to be a shrink? No one was more delusional than Sigmund Freud, “the depraved, drug addicted deviate”, who was undeniably the Father of Psychology. Yes, he did “think differently, but he had a medical school degree.

Progressive Humanist

November 21st, 2012
4:04 pm

Ah, Freud, another anomaly that becomes the rule, according to the delusional cult member who believes that knowledge, education, and science are evil.

And no, I did not claim to be a shrink, nor will I offer you my services. I’m a cognitive psychologist and a professor, or in your twisted world, a tool of Satan who is trying to lead mankind away from your magical primate hypothesis on the origins of the universe.

Truth in Moderation

November 21st, 2012
5:00 pm

“the delusional cult member who believes that knowledge, education, and science are evil.”
Please give a specific example.

So you are a cult follower of Benjamin Bloom?

Progressive Humanist

November 21st, 2012
5:59 pm

Specific example: You believe there is such a thing as “Christian science” and in order to convince your autistic son that the Theory of Evolution (real science) was false, you told him that had Darwin’s theory been true you would have aborted him, thus “proving” creationism. Truly twisted.

Another example: You argued above against the value of post secondary education and actually suggested it was a bad thing.

I am a cult follower of no one. A cult would generally imply religious belief, and while some people of your persuasion insist that science and/or evolutionary theory are religions, the term “religious belief” suggests belief in some sort of mystical, omnipotent, all knowing, being who had a hand in creating the universe. I do not believe in such a thing, thus I am not a cult follower. Now you, on the other hand….

Truth in Moderation

November 21st, 2012
7:32 pm

Nice dodge of my question. I used the term “scientific creationism”. I’m not a Christian Scientist. You also have poor reading comprehension. I gave a PERSONAL ACCOUNT of what would have happened if I had not become a Christian. You seem to think I was born a Christian and always believed in the Bible and the God of Creation. Nothing could be further from the truth! Your so-called arguments are useless against my PERSONAL testimony. You are here today because your own mother CHOSE LIFE.

Are you a cult follower of Benjamin Bloom?
Where did the INFORMATION encoded in DNA come from?

Truth in Moderation

November 21st, 2012
8:14 pm

The Atheists Humanists Agnostics (AHA) club president at Dart-mouth must be Ann’s evil twin.
He “sent out a campus-wide e-mail announcing the program on Tuesday and promising a “full-out romp against why one of the most beloved people of the century, Mother Teresa, is as Hitchens put it… ‘a lying, thieving Albanian dwarf.’”

“The event has ignited controversy on the Ivy League campus, with students telling Campus Reform they were upset AHA was hosting such an event…..AHA President Adam Hann, however, defended the event, but admitted he had intentionally used “provocative” language in the e-mail to excite interest among students.”

Progressive Humanist

November 21st, 2012
8:44 pm

I am quite well aware that you’re not s scientist of any kind. There’s no such thing as scientific creationism. That’s an oxymoron and the fact that you believe in it shows the level of your intellect. I never implied you were born a Christian. All babies are born atheists and are only indoctrinated into religious cults later. I have no idea when your indoctrination happened and I don’t care about your “personal testimony” (read: anecdotal delusions). It’s just clear that you lost touch with reality at some point and from your posts I would question your fitness as a mother.

Once again, the term “cult follower” suggests religious belief in a mystical deity, most often a primate, that caused the creation of the universe, usually through the powers of mental telepathy. No, I don’t believe Bloom or anything else meets those criteria. You’re the only one of us who believes that something out there meets that criteria, sans evidence, which qualifies you as being indoctrinated.