Response to charter amendment ruling: Wrong decision. “There is a cost.”
Here is a response from former Atlanta councilman Doug Alexander on the Fulton Superior Court ruling yesterday that it was not illegal for Fulton County Schools to post information on the charter school amendment on its web site. Nor was it illegal for school board members to answer questions on the Nov. 6 amendment vote when asked by constituents.
Judge Wendy Shoob rejected attorney Glenn Delk’s argument that information about the amendment amounted to advocacy and thus an unlawful use of tax funds.
In Delk’s lawsuit, Fulton County Schools and Gwinnett County Public Schools were named as representatives of all 180 school districts in Georgia. The suit, filed in the Superior Court of Fulton County, alleges they and “the rest of the Education Empire are engaged in a coordinated campaign and conspiracy.”
Shoob did not consider the information on the web site advocacy. “They didn’t say we are for or against it,” she said. “They just posted the Q-and-A. I have a hard time seeing how that was for or against it.”
Alexander disagrees.
By Doug Alexander
I am disappointed in Judge Wendy Shoob’s determination that it’s okay to post “answers to questions” about the upcoming Charter School Amendment because (as reported on WABE-FM) she said that it’s not like the schools took $10,000 and hired a PR firm to print bumper stickers and yard signs, but simply posted their “answers” on the schools web sites, which “doesn’t cost anything.”
Your Honor, there is a cost, and taxpayers have to pay it. Establishing and maintaining a web site cost money – our money. It took someone – either a school employee or a consultant – time to write out these “answers” and put them up on the site. That person’s time cost money – our money.
Schools need web sites to keep students and faculty and parents informed. This is a legitimate function and a legitimate use of public funds. But for schools to put up anything – anything at all – that can be construed as being for or against a decision that the people are going to have make on a policy that may affect those schools is NOT a proper function. That it took any amount of public funds at all, no matter how minuscule, to do so, is an illegitimate use of public funds. Attorney Glenn Delk has it right – they can do and say anything they want “when they are not on taxpayer time.”
The only way around this would for there to be a line in their budgets that specify funds to be used for “advocacy” or “voter education” or “to defeat the Charter School Amendment.” At least that way it is in the open and those elected to administer the schools have to take responsibility for it (at least we can hope that they would).
“An abundance of caution” is a wonderful phrase that should be used more often by those who are spending dollars that we taxpayers provide. Those who employ that phrase before they decide to spend public funds will nearly always do the right thing. Those who instead seek to justify their actions with phrases like “it doesn’t cost anything” nearly always will not.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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97 comments Add your comment
Michael Moore
October 11th, 2012
11:34 am
Any website that has the actual amendment (http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/Display/20112012/HR/1162) especially lines 50-54 would be helpful to voters. Interestingly, it was Shoob who originally ruled in favor of the charter group and establishing a state board over the suing school districts before it went to the state supreme court.
Huh?
October 11th, 2012
11:35 am
But it’s ok for the Gov to advocate on the taxpayer’s nickel? Or for a charter school to takes bus-loads of children to press conferences? Or host a reception for the Gov. and certain legislators? Double, double standard. State government expansion at its most blatant, paid for by taxpayer money.
Mortimer Collins
October 11th, 2012
11:37 am
Yet another Storm in a Teacup.
Ed Advocate
October 11th, 2012
11:43 am
Shoob got it right yesterday. I appreciate her fairness and professionalism. Delk was unprepared, made illogical arguments, and seemed to forgot (or didn’t care?) that Judge Shoob has jurisdiction only in Fulton Co. Ironic that Delk accuses school systems of abusing public funds while he uses the court system frivolously and forces school systems to spend taxpayer dollars fighting ridiculous claims.
Maureen Downey
October 11th, 2012
11:44 am
@Huh, I did find it peculiar that Brian Robinson, the governor’s spokesman and my former colleague, maintained that it cost nothing for the governor to post press releases touting the charter school amendment on his web site. Either Brian or one of his staffers wrote those releases, and I don’t think he works for free.
But Brian, if they are not paying you at the Capitol, come back to the AJC.
From the AJC story this week:
glennrobert
October 11th, 2012
11:58 am
The purpose of schools is to educate. That takes money. So!
Hillbilly D
October 11th, 2012
12:06 pm
It’s all about money, like most everything else.
Ronin
October 11th, 2012
12:35 pm
I’ll be glad when it’s over. Then, maybe, the people/teachers (both district and Charter) can focus on improving ways to motivate and educate kids.
You’ve got to offer more vocational training in grades 8-12 if you want to improve graduation rates.
scrappy
October 11th, 2012
12:36 pm
And we should care about Doug Alexander’s opinion why?
If a “Q & A page” or “answers to parents questions” are intrpretted by supports as “anti-amendment” – perhaps that is because your amendment is horrible and actual facts provided to people will make them want to vote no!
cris
October 11th, 2012
12:42 pm
what about the taxpayer funds used to pay the judge and other court costs for this flimsy lawsuit?
catlady
October 11th, 2012
12:46 pm
Sour grapes.
Prof
October 11th, 2012
12:55 pm
@ scrappy. Who’s Doug Alexander? From 1994-2002 he was an at-large councilman of the Atlanta City Council, the only white member of an otherwise all-black Council. In 2006 he ran unsuccessfully for City Council President. Given the changed city demographics from those days, I would not be at all surprised if he has ambitions to run for Council again… from a Charter School-loving district, I would guess.
Kris
October 11th, 2012
1:00 pm
As for money to post things on a WEB site The site is there and has something on or not. There might in some cases there might be a small (very small charge for excessive amounts of date) but a page of Questions and answers does not take a lot of space.. For this shady deal pocket lining boondoggle What is the Governor (dirty DEAL ) and his cronies afraid of the TRUTH..Be honest tell people what there voting on..
Change the wording on the Ballot to make it clear in stead of the deceitful way the wording is now .Or file a state wide lawsuit to have the whole thing removed from the ballot .
After all you can put lipstick in a Pig but at the end of the day its still a pig..BE Honest Nattie.if you can.
If there is a question on the Ballot Vote NO.
Hall Native
October 11th, 2012
1:07 pm
Just more Deal thuggery. You go against him and you pay for it. Would love to know how many school boards and superintendents have been ‘talked to’ by the Governor or one of his representatives about being on the wrong side of this debate.
Ron F.
October 11th, 2012
1:37 pm
““An abundance of caution” is a wonderful phrase that should be used more often by those who are spending dollars that we taxpayers provide.”
As a former Atlanta councilman, one would think he’d know that it goes both ways. If the governor can post press releases and make statements on the job, then the rest can also. You can’t have it both ways. Delk’s suit sought not only an injunction but an order to have the opposition disseminate materials approved by the plaintiffs. This isn’t just about stopping any opposition, it’s about stacking the deck in every way possible for support. Much like the t-splost issue, you can’t automatically get everyone involved to go along with you. That’s just the way it is, and the voters ultimately will decide.
bootney farnsworth
October 11th, 2012
1:43 pm
so what did Alexander want? for Deal & co to be able to advocate for this and compel the opposition to be silent if someone asks?
actually, that does sound about right for the legislature & Deal
DeKalb Inside Out
October 11th, 2012
1:51 pm
ABC,
State funding follows the student, but local money stays with the school district. That means for every child that goes to a charter school, the local school district has more money per student.
Eddie Hall
October 11th, 2012
1:53 pm
Free speech lives!
JT
October 11th, 2012
2:11 pm
“more money per student”.. but it’s still LESS MONEY. You can take 2 or 3 or 5 students out of a school and it doesn’t change the expenses one bit, but there is that much less money available.
Just Sayin.....
October 11th, 2012
2:20 pm
The fact that school administrators hate this so much makes me want to vote for it.
Lynn43
October 11th, 2012
2:45 pm
Dekalb, Every time you comment, you prove that you know very little about school finance.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 11th, 2012
2:59 pm
And you, Lynn43, have a keen since for the obvious.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 11th, 2012
3:00 pm
keen sense … I guess my keen sense for spelling is out the door.
xxx
October 11th, 2012
3:08 pm
DeKalb Inside Out
It’s sense, not since, .
DeKalb Inside Out
October 11th, 2012
3:16 pm
JT,
I hear ya. Since the school system isn’t serving as many students, they should be able to find some places to trim. Cut out a bus route or some administrators … whatever.
Nevertheless, Lynn43
The school district still has More Money Per Child !!
xxx, thanks
DeKalb Inside Out
October 11th, 2012
3:24 pm
JT, Lynn, et al.
You’ve picked a fine time to go into the finer details of More Money Per Child. I know it’s frustrating when I say less total money is better for the district.
Allow me to refer you to Nancy Jester, who is no doubt much smarter than I am. She does a much better job explaining it than I ever could …
http://whatsupwiththat.nancyjester.com/2012/10/11/its-called-a-balance-sheet/
Earnestly
October 11th, 2012
3:36 pm
Its like taking candy from a baby. They’ve distracted us from the real issue: The state constitution mandates an adequate education for every child in the state. Since many state schools are failing and charter schools will only benefit a relatively small number of students, why are state leaders so desperate to get control of charter schools? While we argue over the merit of schools that will not really change the state’s education dilemma, someone is planning to profit.
MannyT
October 11th, 2012
3:42 pm
How much of the councilman’s resources were used to address this Fulton County Schools question/? Doesn’t he represent people whose families attend APS? Should he reimburse his constituents for the time he used to address a county issue when he represents the city?
jarvis
October 11th, 2012
3:44 pm
” It took someone – either a school employee or a consultant – time to write out these “answers” and put them up on the site. That person’s time cost money – our money.”
What a stupid statement, and I’m less than surprised to see this come from a politicians mouth.
In regards to the person that spent the time updating the website…..the first obvious question does Fulton County pay the site maintainer hourly or salaried? Let’s assume they are hourly. If they hadn’t been updating the website, they would have been doing what? Was something not being done that should have done while the site was being updated? Ultimately would the county have saved money by this person not doing this? Would they have sent home an hourly employee because they had nothing to fill the remainder of the day? Did this website work require OT for an hourly employee? Did this work on the website prevent them from doing something else that in turn required the employee to work more hours?
The answer to all of the questions in all liklihood is NO. This is the type of dumb argument that business people try to use when they talk about “efficiency projects”. Don’t use someone’s hourly rate as a justification for the project unless you are going to 1. Have the employee do something no one at the company is doing today or 2. You are going to reduce the employees salary or let them go all together.
Moron
Truth in Moderation
October 11th, 2012
3:47 pm
I plan to vote “no” on the amendment, because I ALWAYS vote “no” to amend the Constitution…..unless it is an amendment to restore it to its original wording and overturn the added compulsory education law. THAT amendment would eliminate all conflict between public and charter schools. But I digress. Doug Alexander is correct. If the public school did it, there was a cost involved. The clue is SELECTIVITY. We have MANY school related, confusingly worded, proposed pieces of legislation year after year. What if public school leadership put up a Q&A for each and every one? They would then need to hire someone full time for the job. Actually, using their line of reasoning, the schools should do this for EVERY PIECE OF CONFUSINGLY WORDED PROPOSED LEGISLATION. To NOT do so is discriminatory, and has the negative proof of promoting legislation with tax dollars.
I remember public schools being used to promote SPLOST amendments as well. And it wasn’t just a “factual” Q&A either. The citizens weren’t wealthy enough to hire a lawyer to try to stop this misuse of tax dollars. If the public school educated citizens are too ignorant to figure out the best way to vote, then so be it; we were on our way down the drain already.
yuzeyurbrane
October 11th, 2012
3:56 pm
I should say that I can’t believe that the pro-Amendment bunch claim the moral high ground while employing Gestapo-like tactics to stifle any voice that dares disagree with them! Actually, knowing the past history of many of their leaders, I can believe it. A dictatorial, bullying bunch whose opinions should not be seriously considered re shaping the education system, the one place where we are supposed to be taught critical thinking.
alpharetta mom
October 11th, 2012
4:08 pm
Preview of coming attractions – charter operators (like Charter Schools USA), backed by EB5 millions (think Charter Schools USA), plopping high-quality (says who), replicable schools anywhere (think Alpharetta) and no one will be able to say anything to anyone about it without being sued by Mr. Delk – or perhaps they would have a better attorney. Regardless, the students who need help the most lose and the money men, lawyers and legislators they back win. Rotten.
williebkind
October 11th, 2012
4:20 pm
Since when does the democrats care about spending money? Did the lawyer in the lawsuit work for free or does the taxpayer have to pay for his services? Just think if a soldier dies to give Maureen the right to express her opinion in today’s media then Maureen’s opinion was paid by the taxpayer…I mean he/she really paid. Democrats are such joke! They are educated beyound their intelligenc.
williebkind
October 11th, 2012
4:21 pm
Since when do the….
DeKalb Inside Out
October 11th, 2012
4:35 pm
Earnestly,
State leaders don’t control charters. A state commission would commission state charter schools, but control and administration would be left to the local charter board of the community.
Many advocates of charter schools believe that the existence of charter schools or even the mere threat of charter schools will coerce traditional public school systems to pay more attention to the communities they serve.
The same people who profit from traditional public schools are going to profit from public charter schools.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 11th, 2012
4:48 pm
Alpharetta Mom,
Charter Schools USA can’t open a charter school.
Students and families win if they decide that a charter school is better for them than the traditional public school? They also win if they decide that the traditional public school is better for them than a charter school.
Each family knows what is best for their own children.
obvious
October 11th, 2012
4:53 pm
If you are a voter and want info about an amendment that is about schools, you should be able to get info about that from your elected school leaders. They explicitly say they are neutral. Go to the Fulton Schools website and type in Charter Amendment…you get the entire powerpoint that was leaked from the PRO side!
http://portal.fultonschools.org/_layouts/OSSSearchResults.aspx?k=charter%20amendment
HS Public Teacher
October 11th, 2012
4:56 pm
@ DeKalb Inside Out
You are wrong. The corporations that set up charter schools and run them will profit heavily from our education tax dollars. They do not profit from public schools.
Here is an analogy…
Prior to 1992 (I think that was the year), private colleges could not take public money of any kind. This included but not limited to Stafford Loans, Federal Grants, etc. Then the federal government shifted the law and said, “sure, private colleges can take this money.” Their reasoning was that the public universities were not graduating enough of the vocational education types and the private schools would step in and fill that void.
The result was the creation of the tons of these small (and not so small) private for profit colleges such as DeVry, University of Phoenix, and others.
A couple of things to note:
First, one of the major national politicans that pushed for this change in law was a major stake-holder in the University of Phoenix. I won’t mention the name, but you can do minimal research to find the answer.
Second, notice that these SAME private for-profit universities are the very ones that TODAY have a high percentage of students that default on their government loans. Coincidence?
Now, back to Georgia and our public schools. If you simply think a little bit you can realize that the real push behind this effort is simply that the corporations want to profit from the education tax dollars. And, the politicans in Georgia pushing for this are being courted by their lobbiest and are being paid handsomely to do so.
VOTE NO!!!
HS Public Teacher
October 11th, 2012
5:08 pm
@Inside DeKalb Out,
Schools are given a “per student” fee to operate. It is based on the number of students. That amount is the same for every school in the entire State.
If a corporation comes in and opens tons of charter schools in DeKalb County and draws a lot of business, the number of students enrolled in any public school will drop. The school must still provide for the remaining few students. The school must still pay the water bill and the electric bill. However, they will have to magically do this on a ridiculously low budget!
Kris
October 11th, 2012
5:16 pm
@ bootney farnsworth 1:43 pm
so what did Alexander want? for Deal & co to be able to advocate for this and compel the opposition to be silent if someone asks?
actually, that does sound about right for the legislature & Deal/
That was worth repeating…..
I tell ya this is a SMOKESCREEN Under qualified YES Girl/Man for the lottery, casino gambling in Gwinnett, last but not least the charter (line my pockets deal) school where control will be totally taken away from the parents and given to corrupt company’s and politicians to profit…
Vote NO o the Charter school Scam.
Private Citizen
October 11th, 2012
5:31 pm
Vote “yes” because working in a Georgia government school is like being chained over a barrel and beaten with a chain. You’re taken off the barrel every once in a while so you can attend the 20 meetings where the uneducated tell the educated what to do. It is really terrible and I am not overdoing it. Really, anything would be better than these busybody school boards infighting, making ambushes on workers, and supporting and perpetuating career criminals with administrative positions. I do not mean they were criminals before working in education, I mean you could line up Greyhound buses from here to Anchorage and fill all the seats with Georgia K-12 government school administrators who have funny job titles, do not teach in the classroom, avoid teaching in the classroom and then are paid in multiples of what the teachers are paid. It is so completely top heavy with these bozos and initiatives and data and schemes. Even looking around Mr. Barge’s DOE website, there’s 20 different gradients and interlocking initiatives, it’ll make your head spin and God only knows how that man can front all of it and look relaxed. There is so much payout and payola going out the door while teachers are being scapegoated, you could make a Georgia constitutional amendment to bring in Winnie the Pooh and I’d vote for it if it did anything to provide an alternative to this bloated mess. Have you ever been in an education meeting and gotten that creepy feeling” ….. This is like… organized crime or something….” Teachers have no voice, none, zero, and are made to sit their like potatoes and go along with everything. There is no bottom up decision making, none, nothing, and even a positive or relevant suggestion is met with The Hammer from these authority freaks running the show. And it is so numerous, I don’t think anyone would believe it. And the state “re-delivers” and the county “re-delivers” and the building administrators “re-deliver” and the RESAs used to “re-deliver” before somebody depowered them. And someone at the director level of this hierarchy is make a buck off of tell you what to do and using a funny name for it. Even Obama’s education car is the most two-faced man to ever walk the face of planet earth, on the one hand directing this foul named “Race to The Top” with its expensive 360 degree teacher harassment, and then on the other hand being supportive of the charter school amendment. The public school administration and direction is just rotten as rotten can be. The only saving grace for Georgia, if you want to look for quality government schools K12, find the counties that rejected “Race to the Top.” Otherwise, it is Race to the Top of the Propaganda Empire where Children Are Treated as Objects of Profit.
Seriously, I do not think even charter schools could more fully exploit and malign education than what is occurring today. And one thing is certain, along with home schooling, it gives citizens choice. It might even give a few entrepreneurs a chance, which is unthinkable in the county systems.
Does anyone remember when the telephone greeting answer for the APS was a recording of a lady that sounded like they were trying to imitate Britsh royalty? Does anyone recall the specifics of it? It was the craziest thing I’d ever heard in my life anywhere. It sounded like a Saturday Night Live skit or something. Please tell me I’m confabulating and making this up but I think it was real. i don’t think I’ve called the number since. It really has a force field effect, building the “Avoidance Zone.”
Vote “Yes” for charter schools because the present system is just too weird for Mars.
CharterStarter, Too
October 11th, 2012
5:36 pm
Vote YES.
Kids having a fair shot in life is much more important than a single one of the arguments used by the opposition.
Cactus
October 11th, 2012
5:38 pm
There is one thing you can always say for Republican backers of the charter school amendment; they are consistently masters of the little picture. Reading this ridiculous response to Judge Shoob’s common sense ruling makes me think Alexander is penny wise and pound foolish. Where was his voice of protest when almost $5 billion was stripped from the coffers of Georgia public schools? I don’t recall hearing him raise any sort of public protest over what has clearly been an effort by the GOP to deliberately so bankrupt our schools that public opinion would favor market-based alternatives. The political and business “leaders” backing the charter school amendment are counting on public ignorance and the deliberately misleading language of the amendment to obtain voter approval, and as school officials try to explain what the amendment would actually do to the majority of young people in this state, efforts are underway to squelch their opinions and information they have to offer. Not coincidentally, you don’t see GOP “leaders” or their agents (a.k.a. Doug Alexander) offering any criticism of Governor Deal or other tax-fed employees on the pro-amendment side for the time, travel and public utterances they have invested to get this self-serving amendment passed. Georgians are waking up to this scam as they did the TSPLOST debacle, and those who thought to test the gullibility of Georgia citizens may find – again – that voters can think for themselves and can see through the deception that is the charter school amendment. Thanks, Doug, for showcasing the small mindedness of many charter school amendment advocates; just for a change of pace why don’t you spend some time thinking about the future of our state and how it will be determined by the majority of our young people…..you know, the ones who would be harmed by the amendment and the funds it would siphon away from our already near bankrupt public schools.
Ronin
October 11th, 2012
5:59 pm
@Private Citizen, yep, that pretty much nails it.
@H S School teacher, I’ve seen numerous bloggers post about “for profit” schools and how they are to viewed as the hand maiden of Satan. People that use the catch phrase “for profit schools” and their corporate agenda just don’t understand basic economics. ALL schools are for profit. At district schools, teachers and administrators profit from their labor. Vendors that provide services and products profit by selling items to the district school. These purchases may be made locally or by a national company that pays the salary of their employees and CEO as well as a dividend to shareholders, if publicly traded.
A Charter school would have the same expenditures listed above. If they are listed on the New York Stock Exchange, they would pay the stockholder a dividend.
The real difference is, if the district school does a poor job educating kids, they simply go on the naughty list and a principal or asst. principal get transferred to another school, life goes on and they keep the doors open. However, if the Charter doesn’t attract students or does a poor job educating them, their customers leave and the doors to the school close. They are out of business. So, there is a real motivation to excel in delivery of your product.
Who cares if someone profits at a corporation if they deliver a good product.
Private Citizen
October 11th, 2012
6:01 pm
Cactus, I’d rather see the wheel turn and get on with it and go from there. In Belgium, kids have a value attached to them and the kids / families choose where they want to go to school, be it government, prep, tech, arts, or religious based including Moslem schools, and the funding travels with the student, per student. That sounds like freedom and choice to me. And if a kid wants to be a problem and mess over a school, they can be told to leave and go pick an environment where they want to be. Here is the U. S., this is objected to by the assumption that special needs students would somehow be deprived. Well, I do not see it that way. It’s frightening, isn’t it, the idea of freedom and choice instead of expecting other people to carry you around like a backpack? Maybe after charter schools, the public can decide where they want to go to school and the door be open for all. It makes no sense for people to be paying property tax for schooling and then paying again for the choice of where to send their kid to school. If you want your kid to attend chapel and pray in school, or if you want your kid to be sophisticated urban, or if you want your kid to memorize the Koran all day (what is done in Moslem schools in Britain), or you want your kid to learn welding and applied trade, you should be able to do so. Make addendum per your preference and education environment you support.
3schoolkids
October 11th, 2012
6:33 pm
@Private Citizen:
We already have freedom and choice and you don’t have to move to Belgium to get it! Here in Georgia we have private school SSO’s (front door and back door tax money going to private schools, religious or not), the Special Needs Scholarship which can be used at any private school on the DOE list-again includes religious schools and without regards to whether that school actually offers any special needs services, then we have brick and mortar Charter schools (even state ones not locally approved!), online Charter schools and then there is the dizzying array of homeschooling options (accredited and non-accredited, online or correspondence or just plain Mom or Dad or any other learning coach that has a high school diploma teaching their own curriculum). You could even lower the cost of private/homeschooling by splitting the cost of teaching and tutoring with friends, neighbors or educational coops. Choice is not the problem. The problem is the “how much money can I make off this” mindset of some of the amendments proponents and detractors. I will vote NO because I believe the referendum will do little to broaden choice and much to broaden the coffers of others. Not that we don’t need to stop the gravy train for those misusing local and state funds or those who keep their funding even when they cannot comply with local, state and federal education laws.
William Casey
October 11th, 2012
6:38 pm
Charter schools created by an unelected commission appointed by state level politicians. What could go wrong? VOTE NO.
Were Out!
October 11th, 2012
6:41 pm
If we just provided vouchers for every student.. we might get something that works in this state. Our public schools are dismal and my family’s experience was so horrendous I am absolutely ready to “dismantle” the current system. Charter’s are not the answer… vouchers for all are!
bootney farnsworth
October 11th, 2012
7:22 pm
to state this is a fair process without intimidation is a lie from the pit of hell
bootney farnsworth
October 11th, 2012
7:26 pm
myself, I actually favor doing a one time give the charter fanatics what they want. with a single provision: they agree to opt out of public education for the duration
if charters as being pushed are everything they claim to be, good on them. if not, you chartered your bed, live in it.
Charles Douglas Edwards
October 11th, 2012
7:38 pm
We urge Georgia voters to vote NO to the charter school amendment on Tuesday November 6th !!!
Constitutional amendments are very, very hard to overturn or repeal.
The State of Georgia should always strive to give the best education possible to the masses of our children. Our children are our most valuable asset.
Non elected and self appointed charter people should not be allowed to make educational policies and procedures. America is a democracy and charter school advocates should not be allowed to stifle, intimidate or suppress opposition.
We support public schools !!!
bootney farnsworth
October 11th, 2012
7:41 pm
meddling with the constitution is a geenie you don’t want to let out of the bottle on the whim of the most morally questionable man ever elected governor
bootney farnsworth
October 11th, 2012
7:44 pm
hey nate, got a “deal” for you.
you give us a union, you can have your charters just as you want them
Kris
October 11th, 2012
8:31 pm
Looks like momma’s little DEAL has been busy, the new lottery Director is a DONE Raw DEAL
https://ajc.com
http://www.votesmartgeorgia.com/
Vote NO link to vote no SIGNS
http://files.www.votesmartgeorgia.com/facts/Vote_Smart_Sign-1.pdf
Ron F.
October 11th, 2012
8:32 pm
“meddling with the constitution is a geenie you don’t want to let out of the bottle on the whim of the most morally questionable man ever elected governor”
Well there was that Talmadge guy…but I think Deal makes him look like Mary Poppins. You do realize Deal appoints 3 members, Cagle appoints 2, and Ralston appoints 2. Why do I worry about that?
Pride and Joy
October 11th, 2012
8:42 pm
HS Public teacher laments …”The school must still pay the water bill and the electric bill. However, they will have to magically do this on a ridiculously low budget!”
wrong. wrong. wrong.
you’re neglecting the obvious. Public schools can CONSOLIDATE!
jarvis
October 11th, 2012
9:37 pm
I’ve already voted no and mailed in my absentee ballot.
I’m all for choice of any kind, but giving more authority to the State isn’t a good idea. Picking between local government and state government is hardly a choice at all. I had to fall back on what I know as a Libertarian. All government is bad, and the more centralized it is, the worse it is.
jarvis
October 11th, 2012
9:41 pm
@bootney, you want a union? Go work in the private sector. There is no room for collective bargaining in public work. It should be outlawed.
Either that or every item of your collective bargaining sessions should be put on general referendum ballots for the voting public. Tax dollars should not be spent on all of schlitz that goes with unionization without the tax payer’s say so on every item.
Lance
October 11th, 2012
10:17 pm
Brian Robinson and the Deal people are morons!
3schoolkids
October 11th, 2012
10:30 pm
He pledged to stop the toll tax right before the TPLOST vote, what kind of carrot do you think he’ll dangle this time?
Bill in Dallas
October 11th, 2012
10:42 pm
The way I see it is that the lawmakers are wanting to eventually privatize education. This is a step in that direction. I can tell you very clearly why some schools are failing. Look at the economy in those areas. When the students grow up with no hope, there is no reason to work hard and learn. The parents don’t believe that there is any hope for their child’s future, so they take no interest in it either. It’s a never ending spiral down the toilet bowl of education. I’m not a great writer, but the problem here is that too many people THINK they know what’s best for today’s youth, but most of them have no clue how to help or even where to begin to help. We blame teachers, parents, society, government for why they don’t do better, when we really should instead quit babying and hand-holding them and expect them to do their part.
Dr. Monica Henson
October 12th, 2012
12:11 am
HS Public Teacher posted, “The corporations that set up charter schools and run them will profit heavily from our education tax dollars. They do not profit from public schools.”
WRONG. Many of the companies that operate and provide support services to charter public schools do a far greater volume of business with district public schools. They sell them school turnaround services, online courses, curriculum materials, and staff development. Districts with failing schools receive millions of dollars in federal school improvement funds. Private educational management companies competed fiercely for the right to do business with them.
Dr. Monica Henson
October 12th, 2012
12:12 am
“compete,” present tense. It’s too late at night to be a-postin’ on the intertubes.
Pardon My Blog
October 12th, 2012
6:22 am
Do away with Charter Schools, period. Problem solved!
bootney farnsworth
October 12th, 2012
6:27 am
@ jarvis
how’s the lack of a union in education working out for you these days? happy with the effectiveness, transparency, and the state acting as if they answer to no one not named or appointed by Gov Deal?
truth is, I don’t wish a union, but the state’s unwillingness to be an honest partner in discussions, not to mention rampant cronyism have forced the issue. if you review history, unions rise when management acts as if they are royalty and employees are there to service them by divine right.
bootney farnsworth
October 12th, 2012
6:29 am
@ jarvis
why do you wish to deny the constitutional right of speech and assembly to fellow citizens?
because we serve the state means we must lose certain rights granted by God and law to
US citizens?
again, how’s that worked out for you so far?
Whirled Peas
October 12th, 2012
7:34 am
Private schools looking better all the time.
jarvis
October 12th, 2012
9:37 am
@bootney, If you believe free speech and assembly cover the right to unionize, then our discussion will end here.
The right to collectively bargain is an extension of the 10th Amendment. It is loosley taken out of context from the Commerce Clause.
But I will admit that legal precedence is on your side. Clearly public collective bargaining isn’t illegal. That’s why I said “should be outlawed”.
jarvis
October 12th, 2012
9:41 am
And bootney, I’d also defer to the existing interpretation of the Constitution which is also on your side. If push came to shove, I would not support making a teacher’s union illegal….unless of course the Supremem Court reversed its current interpretation of the Commerce Clause.
I’m all for assembly and free speech. You have the right to complain about whatever you want with whoever you want. I’d fight to the death for that right for any American no matter how ridiculous different their opinion is to mine.
DeKalb Teacher
October 12th, 2012
11:08 am
3schoolkids.
Please understand that many of us don’t have the schooling options you have. Between furloughs and RIFs, we are struggling to pay our rent and keep the aircon/heat on. It’s insensitive when you tell us to stay home with our kids or send them to private school.
We didn’t all fail out of engineering or business school to become teachers. Some of us choose this as the noble profession it is. Don’t forget the people who live outside your neighbor and teach your kids or deliver your mail.
Appreciatively.
bootney farnsworth
October 12th, 2012
11:13 am
@ jarvis,
while that was a lovely speech, including the one which followed your statement you had nothing else to discuss.(yet rambled on anyways)
you avoided and avoided again the basic question: how’s the current system working for you so far?
bootney farnsworth
October 12th, 2012
11:15 am
the biggest cost is what happens if one side is able to deny the other a chance to air their side
DeKalb Inside Out
October 12th, 2012
11:23 am
HS Public Teacher
Corporations can not setup charters.
An individual non-profit organization located in a community and generally comprised of parents, teachers and civic leaders enter into a “charter” with the state – a binding contract – and governs a school, as the contract requires.
Show me one charter in Georgia set up by a corporation.
Given your analogy, are you saying private schools are going to start getting charter money?
DeKalb Inside Out
October 12th, 2012
11:28 am
Jarvis.
Don’t forget that charter schools are run by local non-profit boards and not the state government. I think one of the main ideas behind charters is to break up the county monopolies on education … IMHO.
Side Note: I enjoyed your take on unions. Interesting suggestion!
jarvis
October 12th, 2012
11:41 am
The current system works great. I put my family in a good school cluster. Elementary, middle, and high are all excellent schools.
jarvis
October 12th, 2012
11:43 am
By the way bootney, I love teachers….my wife is one.
jarvis
October 12th, 2012
11:49 am
@Dekalb, run yes once granted….which will be done at the State level.
That’s like telling me that the state doesn’t build bridges, construction companies do.
Maureen Downey
October 12th, 2012
12:29 pm
#To all who say the state is not approving charters. DOE sent out this link:
http://savannahnow.com/news/2012-10-12/new-charter-schools-tybee-savannah-approved#.UHhE3a5bprN
jarvis
October 12th, 2012
1:10 pm
@Maureen, the Tybee school is very intereting. They are only opening it up to Tybee children to begin with, and will allow other students to attend if there is space in a grade level that Tybee kids haven’t filled.
That’s a strange charter, isn’t it? They will only allow kids from one of the school system’s towns to attend the school?
Maureen Downey
October 12th, 2012
1:14 pm
@jarvis, I have seen other charters with fairly narrow attendance lines as well. I suspect that will raise issues in the future in some towns.
Maureen
DeKalb Inside Out
October 12th, 2012
1:28 pm
Hi Maureen.
Those two schools are local “Startup Charter Schools” approved by their local boards. They are not “State Chartered Special Schools” (schools that are state approved after local denial).
Start-Up Charter Petition – Tybee Island Maritime Academy Charter School
It is recommended that the State Board of Education grant a charter for Tybee Island Maritime Academy Charter School, a grades K-5 start-up charter school approved by Savannah-Chatham Board of Education, for a five-year term beginning July 1, 2013 and ending June 30, 2018.
You have fallen prey to the confusion of what the state can and can’t do. Mary Elizabeth and MB … please keep me straight on this …
In 2011 the Ga Supreme Court majority report says the 1877 Constitution of Georgia granted local boards of education the exclusive right to establish and maintain K-12 education. The state cannot therefore establish competing State-created general k-12 schools. Nahmias talks about funding in his dissent, but the court is clear that counties have exclusive rights to establish K-12 education except in “Special Schools” like schools for the blind.
Thus, the state can not “approve” any charter school that hasn’t already been approved by the local board in that district. The Charter Schools Amendment 1 addresses that.
Supporting Documents
Majority Opinion: http://scogblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/gwinnett-county-v-cox-majority-opinion.pdf
Nahmias’ Dissent: http://scogblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/gwinnett-county-v-cox-nahmias-dissent.pdf
DeKalb Inside Out
October 12th, 2012
1:49 pm
Charter School Attendance Zones
The attendance zone for a charter school is defined in that school’s charter. The board can ask them to change the attendance zone before approving if they like. If people have a problem, they should take it up with the board. The county school system still has a lot of power over local start up charter schools.
jarvis
October 12th, 2012
2:00 pm
Believe it or not the Fulton County Q&A does a very good job of explaining the whole thing including the difference between the state approved (because of local rejection) charters and the local approval process.
It’s really not a very biased piece (they do however mention like 10 times that the state board would be appointed and not elected). It’s the cleanest explanation of the amendment I’ve seen.
jarvis
October 12th, 2012
2:01 pm
@Dekalb, I’m oringinally from Savannah and have a lot of family there still. Putting in a school that will only serve Tybee children….they might as well have created a school that said…..we’ll only be taking white kids.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 12th, 2012
2:20 pm
Hey Jarvis,
Thanks for the heads up on the Fulton County Q&A.
Send an email to the board rep for your family and ask them what gives with that attendance zone. I’d be curious to know myself. The super over there seems like a decent guy.
As may you know, my opinion of the South DeKalb Mafia is the tyranny of the majority in DeKalb. They are in cahoots with the school system here and do all kinds of things like that.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 12th, 2012
2:45 pm
Fulton County Charter School Amendment 1 Q&A seems to contradict the Supreme Court Majority Opinion
Fulton County Q&A says that the The Georgia Charter Schools Commission can not commission “State Special Charter Schools”. Charters that are denied by the local district may apply to the Georgia Department of Education (GADOE) for approval. These “State Special Charter Schools” are authorized and funded…
The Majority Report says says the 1877 Constitution of Georgia granted local boards of education the exclusive right to establish and maintain K-12 education.
Fulton County Q&A makes it look like charters can appeal to the GADOE where they can be approved there. The Georgia Supreme Court was very specific about the definition of “State Special Charter Schools”:
The “special schools” [are] not competitors with locally controlled schools in regard to the education of general K-12 students; rather, the scope of special schools [is] demonstrated by the examples of “special
schools” expressly contained in Georgia constitutions since 1966. Examples of “special schools” [are] “vocational trade schools, schools for exceptional children, and schools for adult education.”
It seems like the GADOE can only commission “vocational trade schools, schools for exceptional children, and schools for adult education.”
Any thoughts anyone?
bootney farnsworth
October 12th, 2012
3:14 pm
@ jarvis
while its good to know you love your wife, it still doesn’t answer my question.
yuzeyurbrane
October 12th, 2012
4:06 pm
Since I pay school taxes even though I no longer have school age kids, I would prefer that local control remain with county boards of education where I still have a voice through elections, not with a school parent controlled charter committee using my tax money and I having no say so whatsoever. Otherwise I don’t really mind continuing to pay school taxes because it is for the general good of all to have a well-educated populace. Perhaps I would be more sympathetic to charter parents if the particular charter schools were only funded by the school tax money of the parents of children attending these schools? Also, having been around a few years, I doubt the long term ability of so-called parents councils to control the agenda of charter schools more than an active PTA at traditional schools. He who controls the agenda controls what happens. That will always be the professional staff, which in the case of charters are the for-profit education corporations with which they contract.
Thomas Ray
October 12th, 2012
9:41 pm
Foreign Investors get a Green Card – for investing in Charter Schools?
Huffington Post – October 12, 2012
By Stephanie Simon (Reuters) -
Excerpts:
It’s been a turbulent period for charter schools in the United States, with financial analysts raising concerns about their stability and regulators in several states shutting down schools for poor performance.
The volatility has made it tough for startup schools to get financing.
But an unlikely source of new capital has emerged to fill the gap: foreign investors.
Wealthy individuals from as far away as China, Nigeria, Russia and Australia are spending tens of millions of dollars to build classrooms, libraries, basketball courts and science labs for American charter schools.
In Buffalo, New York, foreign funds paid for the Health Sciences Charter School to renovate a 19th-century orphanage into modern classrooms and computer labs. In Florence, Arizona, overseas investment is expected to finance a sixth campus for the booming chain of American Leadership Academy charter schools.
The reason? Under a federal program known as EB-5, wealthy foreigners can in effect buy U.S. immigration visas for themselves and their families by investing at least $500,000 in certain development projects. In the past two decades, much of the investment has gone into commercial real-estate projects, like luxury hotels, ski resorts and even gas stations.
Lately, however, enterprising brokers have seen a golden opportunity to match cash-starved charter schools with cash-flush foreigners in investment deals that benefit both.
Missouri regulators shut down six campuses run by Imagine Schools, one of the nation’s largest for-profit charter chains, because of poor academic performance. A judge in California ruled that Aspire Public Schools, a large non-profit chain, hadn’t secured the proper approval for six of its schools and would have to get permission from local boards of education to continue running them. Local officials yanked the charter of a high-achieving middle school in Georgia over concerns about mismanagement.
All told, about 15 percent of the 6,700 charter schools that have been launched in the United States in the past two decades have since closed, primarily because of financial troubles, according to the Center for Education Reform, which supports charter schools.
This fall alone, more than 150 established charter schools didn’t open their doors to students.
An investor forum in China last spring, for instance, touted U.S. charter schools as a nearly fool-proof investment because they can count on a steady stream of government funding to stay afloat, according to a transcript posted on a Chinese website.
Eager to join the rush, Ali Faisal devoted a day this week to touring charter schools in Arizona.
Faisal, 37, is a Pakistani citizen who now lives in Calgary, Canada. He runs a technology consulting business that works with oil and gas companies and says he is eager to expand to the United States. He figures the best way to do that is to get a green card.
And the best way to do that, he said, is the EB-5 program.
Participants can get a temporary visa by investing $500,000 to $1 million in a federally approved business. If the business creates or preserves at least 10 jobs in two years, the investor and his immediate family are eligible for permanent residency in the United States.
Ron F.
October 12th, 2012
10:12 pm
@Thomas:
Another tidibit from the wires:
In Texas, the Cosmos Foundation has filed 1,157 H1-B applications since 2001. It operates 25 Harmony schools statewide. Since 2001, Harmony has imported 731 employees using H-1Bs, surpassing all other secondary education providers nationwide. Parents last year also accused one Harmony school of “pushing out” underperforming students — a charge the Texas Education Agency confirmed.
Ed Fuller, a University of Texas-Austin researcher, found that Harmony schools throughout Texas had an “extraordinarily high” student attrition rate of about 50% for students in grades six through eight.
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/life/20100817/turkishfinal17_cv.art.htm
Thomas Ray
October 12th, 2012
11:08 pm
@Ron F
Thanks for the info: Also, from the Georgia Partnership for Excellence in Education (GPEE)
http://toolbox.gpee.org/Charter-Schools.236.0.html#c334
“While 70 percent of all charter schools including charter system schools made AYP, only 67 percent percent of conversion and start-up charter schools made AYP in 2010-11. This is a decrease from 80 percent in 2009-10.”
Thomas Ray
October 12th, 2012
11:32 pm
Why Charters Fail:
In South Carolina, 15 public charter schools have closed either through voluntary relinquishment of their charters or through charter termination proceedings (nonrenewal or revocation). To better understand why these schools failed, the Office of Public School Choice studied the factors that led the their demise.
The results of that study can be found on the South Carolina Department of Education’s Web site.
The study shows that average life span of South Carolina’s closed charter schools was only 2.7 years, with 11 of the 15 schools closing before completing their second years. This study revealed that the overwhelming majority of these schools closed due to one factor—failure to plan properly before opening. Improper planning is evident in three interrelated areas that often lead to closure:…
Read more:
http://www.ascd.org/ascd-express/vol4/424-medley.aspx
ChartersStarter, Too
October 13th, 2012
10:25 am
@ HS Public Teacher – you are slightly incorrect with your explanation of school funding and its impacts.
First, STATE funding is based on per pupil and their specific programming, class size assumptions, etc. What you don’t mention is that 84.3% of that is directly tied to salaries that impact children (teachers, paras, counselors, etc.) The remainder is tied to operations (and all but 9.5% of that is personnel – bureaucracy) that does not impact children. My reason for mentioning this is to point out that when a student leaves a district and the state revenue follows (as is the case if a child moves even to another district), the associated expense with directly impacting that child goes away, too. And, as someone wisely pointed out, it takes more to educate a child than the district takes in from the state, so the district is actually better off, particularly in districts with overcrowding where trailers are being utilized.
Local funding isn’t figured based on per pupil. You get a pot of money based on millage, and is expended over the # of pupils served. If the district keeps all of the local money and loses the kids, they are better off. There is no other way to view this.
No one has answered my question “how much is enough to educate? – what is adequate?” I would argue that if a charter school has operated and effectively educated kids on less than their district counterpart, then that is adequate. Even with austerity, we have districts earning $15k. They are performing much, much worse than districts at $6000 per pupil. I’ve said it before and I will say it again – it is NOT the money that districts/schools earn that matters. It’s how they spend the money and their priorities. Until we fix that, we will continue to have poor performance. Charter are models of efficiency that put their priority 1 as children – NOT bureaucracy. NOT expensive retreats and travel. I encourage each of you to look at how YOUR district is expending funds – go line by line into the vendors they are paying. You would be mighty surprised at how many expenses are non-critical and have nothing to do with better educating students.
ChartersStarter, Too
October 13th, 2012
10:40 am
@ Thomas Ray – correct. When you look state wide, that is a fact. Look at where are charters are – most are in urban districts or poor rural areas. Compare THOSE charters with their districts and you will see that the state charters made AYP 75% versus the districts they served that were at 66.7%. AND, the charters’ students with disabilities outscored the district SPED students by 6 percentage points. AND look at the difference between our only state charter and the district it serves’ graduation rate: CCAT – 95.8% vs. Bulloch County – 69.03%.
Our charters are helping students excel and close the achievement gap.
BTW, GPEE has Stacy Abrams (loud mouth Democrat who opposes the amendment, Supt. Barge, Sally Fitzgerald (League of Women Voters, PTA), Herb Garrett (Supt. Assn.), Sis Henry (GSBA), Donna Kisicki (PTA), Allene Magill (PAGE), on its Board of Directors… all STAUNCH opponents. What did you expect them to say?
I have no issue with quoting information, but that is quite a different thing from propaganda.
ChartersStarter, Too
October 13th, 2012
12:55 pm
@ Thomas Ray and Ron F. While you are posting why charters fail nationally, please explain why districts fail.
mommamonster
October 13th, 2012
9:56 pm
CCAE (Cobb County Association of Educators) is holding a forum at Hillgrove HS in West Cobb on the Charter Schools Amendment issue: 10/24 at 6:30! Come and fill the theater so the Gold Dome sees our strength in numbers!
If you want an “anti” yard sign let me know and I’ll get it to you!
ChartersStarter, Too
October 13th, 2012
10:41 pm
Momma, How sad that any adult would want to deny a child the opportunity to learn in a setting where they are most productive.
P.S. The Gold Dome has nothing to do with this at this point. 2/3 voted YES to let the public decide.