Charter school battle turns ugly as legal arguments heat up

Cherokee Charter in their public board meeting used a good part of the meeting as a how to promte and organize support for the amendment, as well as handed out flyers. This seems rather strange that they are only going after one side.

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I found this web page that contains some wonderful information about charter schools. VOTE SMART GEORGIA. clearly explains who sets to gain if the amendment passes and guess what, it’s not the children, it’s big business. The for-profit charters are funneling in huge amounts of money in the hopes that this will pass. The bill was written by ALEC, an group of policy writers who are backed by corporations and big business-their agenda is to privatize education and put it into the hands of the very corporations and businesses who is funding the policy writers. By the way, Jan Jones, who submitted the bill, is the chair of the educational task force for ALEC. This is just the beginning of their plan to totally privatize Georgia;s public schools.

http://www.votesmartgeorgia.com/whos-funding-the-amendment

If you are going to VOTE NO, please read to confirm the reasons why you are voting no.
If you are on the fence, please read so that you can find out the true motives behind this unnecessary amendment to our states constitution and then VOTE NO.
If you are going to vote yes, please read this and then see if you can still vote that way with a clear conscience, knowing that you will be allowing the take over of public education by big business. It’s not about your children, they want your money.

VOTE NO in NOvember

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So, guess that means that if any school board or superintendent is a member of the chamber of commerce, the chamber of commerce can’t campaign for or against the amendment either.

Someone better read the First amendment… Last time I checked, an AG’s opinion is just that… good luck enforcing it.

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[...] Charter school battle turns ugly as legal arguments heat upAtlanta Journal Constitution (blog)Proponents of the November charter school amendment have protested state School Superintendent John Barge's public stand against the amendment on the DOE web site, which led the state Department of Education to take down a 29-point position paper …and more » [...]

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@Mom to Many: I’m guessing not, according to the AG, just like the email I got the day of the Supreme Court ruling through the charter school my son was attending urging me to attend a rally the next day at 10:30am with my child at the state capitol would be wrong too.

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John @7:47P “This seems rather strange that they are only going after one side.”

Not so strange when one considers the type of people we are dealing with.

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one thing about this which is alive and well: education’s kill the messenger tactic. nuke the messenger if they are right

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I don’t understand the need to try and silence the conversation and debate over this issue. Why is it we cannot have adult conversations in this country anymore?

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@mom to many Not if sent from school email.
@3schoolkids It can say there is a rally, but cannot tell you how to vote
@bootney We can agree on one thing…the voters of Georgia are finally -however faintly- interested in something to do with education which
doesn’t involve football

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“I don’t understand the need to try and silence the conversation and debate over this issue.”

You only want silence when the discussion isn’t being won by your side. Perhaps the facts are too much for the AG and others like him to debate. Even as discussions have progressed pretty reasonably on this blog, the facts aren’t all in favor of the amendment supporters, and evidently their feeling the pressure up in Atlanta. It becomes easier to just shut it down than to honestly deal with the debate and the questions people are asking. In the end, that will only hurt the amendment’s chances in my opinion.

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For the information of readers:

I called Georgia’s State Board of Education this morning and spoke to the Administrative Assistant to the Chief-of-Staff for the State Board of Education. Here are the facts as told to me by that Administrative Assistant: Georgia’s State Board of Education has now – and has had in the past – the power to establish state charter schools. The Constitutional Amendment has no bearing on Georgia’s State Board of Education’s authority to establish state charter schools. The State Board of Education is not taking a position on the Constitutional Amendment. I asked the Administrataive Assistant if the State Board of Education’s power to establish state charter schools would continue – into the future – whether, or not, the Constitutional Amendment passes. I was told that the authority of Georgia’s State Board of Education to establish state charter schools would continue into the future, regardless of the election’s results in November pertaining to the Constitutional Admendment regarding a State Commission for Charter Schools.

Thus, it remains my opinion that the Constitutional Amendment is unnecessary. Parents have presently another option of establishing a charter school when their local school district denies their request for a charter school. Parents can apply for a state charter school through the State Board of Education. I cannot help but wonder why some continue to assert that this Constitutional Amendment is necessary to give parents another option. Parents already have another option through the State Board of Education to establish a state charter school.

I highly suspect that this Constitutional Amendment is more political than it is educational. I, also, am wary of the fact that the State Commission of Charter Schools, which the Constitutional Amendment would confirm, would be composed only of members who are appointed, not elected by the public.

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@ dunwoody mom

not in Georgia, not on this issue.

for some reason, this is the hill which many on the political right have decided have decided is worth
dying for. the fact they turned so hard and so openly on Barge is very telling. politicians only go that kind of hysterical nutty when the person who must be destroyed has a valid point.

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@ Ron F

M-Th is more than we’ve been getting, so….
baby steps, baby steps

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You people in the public school business did this to yourselves. If you had addressed issues before education went down the drain, there would be no clamor for charters!

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“I highly suspect that this Constitutional Amendment is more political than it is educational.”

If it walks like a duck, as the proverb says, then….

Clearly this is politics at its finest. A lot of nice rhetoric wrapped around an emotionally charged issue creates a perfect storm where people throw out facts and logic and willingly give up power to the state. An effective political strategy that gets people to willingly give up power to the state, trusting it to know what’s best. And the state is trusting ALEC among others, and we all know where that group gets its marching orders.

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Karl Marx,

Ironic with your name you would agree with that logic!

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Because of a local political fight several years back with schools on one side and a local official on the other, I am only too aware of this legal issue. Public employees may not use publicly paid for equipment (copy machines, telephones, computers, reams of paper, etc.) on publicly paid for time (during the work day) to lobby or campaign for a particular political point of view. Once I am off duty, at home on my personal computer and with my personal printer, my free speech rights kick in and I am free to lobby and campaign at will. On a Saturday, teachers can march on the state house to express themselves on their own time. This also applies to teaching in the classroom; I am not allowed to try to win students over to my personal point of view; so using students to lobby using school buses and under the auspices of the school is also illegal.

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Every time there is a forum, a press conference, a hearing, children all dressed in uniform are paraded in with signs, seated in front and then led tone by one to the microphone to read a prepared speech in favor of amendment 1. Is this fair to children, making them the stalking face of the pro-amendment crowd?

Follow the money, folks. You don’t stifle debate (what country are we in?) unless there are big bucks to be gotten.

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The bullies are out in force trying to silence the truths spoken by those of us who oppose the Amendment 1. I was told this weekend that because I am a school principal, that I was not legally allowed to share my opinion about the amendment. That person’s opinion is utterly false and I will keep telling why I am opposed.

Dr. Barge told the truth in the paper he disseminated. The fact that the legislature and governor have no money to fully fund public schools that provide the education for 95% of Georgia’s children, yet they are able to create a new funding scheme that pays 2 and 1/2 times per child for the charter school students tells a lot about the true motives.

The true purpose of this amendment is to open the doors wide to privatization of our schools.

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One of the lead consultants for the pro-amendment side is also a consultant to AG Olens. Coincidence, I’m sure.

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I say since there were instances of “electoral advocacy” from both sides of the argument that we let them cancel each other out and forget about it. But this is just the prelude to the dance and I’m sure that won’t happen. Either way the referendum goes there will be lawsuits.

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“When we cast profit as somehow a bad thing we are truly un-American.”

Wilbur, nobody is knocking profit making when investors and consumers use money to support it from their own pockets. The issue here is giving tax dollars to those companies while easing regulations that the public entities receiving them must follow. In essence, many are saying it’s okay to let private companies use tax payer dollars with less regulation. I don’t think it “un-American” to oppose that. If parents choose to pay tuition to a school that makes profit from that, so be it. That is American economics at work. Allowing tax dollars to be given by an appointed commission, which has no direct accountability to voters, to private management companies isn’t the same thing. It’s a step towards privatization, which in most cases ends up costing more for the same or less quality outcomes and restricts voters’ rights to have any influence or control of it.

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In my opinion, Georgia will get the public education system it wants. It may not be the public education system its citizens say they want, but it will be whatever our actions and votes determine. The people we elected to public office have stripped more than $4 billion from our school system resulting in 140-150 day school years, larger teacher-pupil ratios, and near bankruptcy in a growing percentage of less affluent counties. This reduces our future competitiveness, something ironically our “leaders” in government and business say drives their commitment to education improvement.

In some areas of the state, teachers cannot provide paper to their students, and they pray the bulb in their overhead projector won’t die because there is no money to replace it. Teachers have seen conditions for their students deteriorate to the point that when confronted with the question of parting with some of their own modest disposable income, they are often giving it to the children in their classrooms rather than their biological offspring. These educators are being thanked for their commitment to your children and mine (I am not an educator nor have I ever been) with furloughs and firings generated by political leaders who I believe have been and will remain in the pockets of wealthy, for-profit education management corporations. In my opinion, our elected “leaders” are advancing a market-based approach to education that sounds good to anyone who values competition (as I do) and who is frustrated by the pace of school improvement, which is clearly too slow. In reality, our political “leaders” are part of a political initiative orchestrated by ALEC designed to re-segregate our schools along economic lines while feathering their own personal and political nests. I believe these “leaders” subscribe to the notion that we have given the majority of our population ample opportunity to take advantage of our public education system and that we do not have time to wait for those who slumber to wake up. Our international competitiveness is diminishing, so they assert, which apparently gives society license to help some young people and jettison the rest. Social Darwinism administered by those who see themselves at the top of the food chain. From their perspective, we must create an appointed commission to create a separate school system for the young people who will be our future leaders, people who no doubt physically resemble the ones pulling the levers of power today. How fearful it must be for them to imagine an America that lives up to its creed rather than its unspoken commitment to WASP power. What happens to those remaining in our existing public school system after the fear mongers’ dismantlement of public education is subject to Darwin’s theories on the survival of the fittest, I guess.

I believe it is significant to note that charter schools, which are usually good things, benefit significantly from private school migration. In other words, parents of private school children, and I have been one, are looking for ways to save $17,000-$24,000 a year in tuition costs per child and see high-quality charter schools as a cost-saving option. They’re right; they are in some instances, although only one-third outperform their traditional counterparts, according to Stanford University. One third underperform their counterparts, and one third score at about the same level. Could some of the pressure on the Governor and the GOP-controlled legislature to put forward and ensure voter approval of the charter school amendment be fueled by private school parents who constitute many of the well-heeled political campaign supporters of our current “leaders?” Would it really be terrible for those who recently attended expensive private schools to enroll in existing public schools and mix and mingle with students of different backgrounds? Would it hurt their parents to bring their considerable educations, valuable ideas and time to the aid of a public school serving their sons or daughters? Do we really need a state controlled halfway house that preserves the special status of privileged children at public expense and outside the control of local voters? My son transitioned from one of the most expensive private schools to a very diverse public charter school approved by our local board of education, and it was a learning experience that shaped him into the fine man he is today, and his education did not suffer; he attended one of the top 25 universities (public or private) in America. Perhaps most important he does not see color in the selection of his friends as he might have growing up in the segregated and class conscious Georgia I did decades ago. Winston Churchill, whose mother was a U.S. citizen, once said wryly that “you can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they’ve tried everything else.” When it comes to public education in Georgia, we don’t need to try one more silver bullet to improve our schools, in my opinion. I believe it is time for all of us to tell our “leaders” that public education is intended for all of our students and that we must invest our time, attention, resources and will to their success as though this was a war that brought us all together for the common good. In my opinion, the responsibility for good schools does not rest with any one group, but there are some fundamentals that we must insist upon such as adequate funding, parental involvement, workplace learning opportunities for students so they can see the connection between what they learn in class and how it is applied in the “real world,” the recruitment of our smartest people into teaching, and our perpetual investment in educators’ knowledge and skills, high and unrelenting academic standards for students and an insistence that they master those standards to progress, opportunities for students who have dropped out to return or re-enter the education system when they realize their mistake, and a change in the school calendar so we can more quickly regain our competitive advantage in a world that went to 200 or more school days decades ago. Our public education system was the envy of the world at one time, and can be again if we reject the arguments of the small minded who would entrust our future to a politically motivated scheme to aid one group of privileged students to the detriment of every other child. I know less affluent students will be served by charter schools approved by the state, but I think experience has taught us that what may be marketed as opportunity today may be recognized as window dressing tomorrow. Just as in World War II and other international conflicts, we are in this together whether we like it or not and whether we fare well in the future may depend on our commitment to each another, and that includes success for all of our children. It is inconceivable to me to envision a future where the lives of my children and grandchildren will not be affected for good or ill by the lives of those who grew up with them. It may be entirely selfish on my part, but I don’t want members of my family living in a country where a large percentage of its population is unemployable, resentful, and hopeless. It really won’t matter at that point who was to blame. I believe many of the advocates for the charter school amendment’s passage mean well, but from my perspective they have mastered the small picture at the expense of the long-term view. Let’s consider what Churchill observed and reject short-term silver bullet solutions that favor one group of students over another and financially benefit the self-serving; let’s do the right thing and insist that we make all of our public schools perform at a higher level for all of our students. Money may be part of the answer, especially after such Draconian cuts for so many years, but the real solution, in my opinion, is creating a “culture” of high expectations that calls upon each of us to communicate to students, parents, teachers, school administrators, business people, and elected leaders that education is truly a priority for us and that we will back up our fine words on this subject with votes that favor public education champions, personal and professional time invested in the lives of students through mentoring, tutoring, the establishment and enforcement of high academic and vocational standards, encouragement of teaching as a career for our brightest students, assistance for parents who want to help their children but don’t know how, etc. Respectfully, I suggest we get the public education system we say we want by finally doing the right thing and foregoing any more top down silver bullet fixes that only postpone the inevitable commitment we will one day have to make to survive economically. A great education system exacts a price from all of us, and delivers the highest possible return on investment.

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Just wait.

Talking and walking money- BIG MONEY, friends.

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considering gov Deal was considered one of the most corrupt congressmen during his time in DC, lets not act like we didn’t see this kind of thing coming

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@Larry Major, the Charter Schools Division did inform all charter school leaders of the decision. The Georgia Charter Schools Association does receive funds from its member charter schools to pay for their institutional memberships. They are subject to the same restrictions as the Georgia School Boards Association with regard to use of school funds to campaign for or against the amendment. Information only, no advocacy of how to vote. The campaign in favor of the amendment is not coordinated by GCSA, but by the Brighter Georgia Education Coalition, which is a separate entity funded entirely by donations from private individuals and private businesses, not by charter schools, charter school boards, or GCSA. If GSBA had taken this approach themselves, they wouldn’t be in the boat they’re in now with the AG opinion.

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I meant Charter not Chaurter. I wish you would have spell check Maureen. I only get it on my I-pad.

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Bullying? I don’t see it.
Superintendent Barge requested Sam Olen’s opinion regarding Use of public resources by local government entities to influence ballot questions

Sam Olen’s opinion is non partisan:
Local school boards do not have the legal authority to expend funds or other resources to advocate or oppose the ratification of a constitutional amendment by the voters.

The opposition to the amendment is taking this as a shot at them because they are the majority of entities breaking this law and affected by the Attorney General’s response to Barge’s request.

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I don’t understand the argument that for-profit charter companies are the reason not to vote yes on this. We have seriously considered starting a charter school in the Morningside/Va-Hi area so our kids could have a REAL digital arts program and a real STEM program, and a true gifted program (not the “gifted program theater” that APS provides, along with its criminally awful “special ed theater.”)

We would NEVER in a million years hire a for-profit firm to run the show; we have plenty of parent talent available right here on my street.

I understand that some communities may feel they lack the expertise to run a school using a parent board, but they’re wrong. It’s not rocket science. If it were the least bit difficult, the thoroughly mediocre people APS has in place couldn’t even get the doors open in the morning. The only reason parents couldn’t run a school better than the dreary municipal employees we have now is lack of want-to.

If you all want to stipulate that no charter can obtain approval if its application relies on a for-profit management company, I’m right there with you. Let’s take profit motive out of the argument–and then you’ll have to find another straw man.

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@MaryElizabeth, The state BOE does have the right to approve appeals at the present time, and that’s exactly what I want to protect. History has shown, from 2011 lawsuit, that the Supreme Court will take away that right when a local board sues. The grounds they used to take the right away from the Charter Schools Commission can be used to take it away from the state BOE as well. Only a constitutional amendment will protect this right. I wish the amendment would have just not mentioned recreating the Commission, but it does and it really doesn’t matter who the handful of state people are that will be approving appeals. I think either will do fine, the state boe or the commission(which is all volunteer, no pay). But the right for the state to do so is at risk here.

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@Cactus, excellent comments.

To those who say that public schools did this to themselves because local boards refused to approve charters: Does it occur to you that maybe the local boards have had good reason not to approve certain charter schools? Just maybe they weren’t trying to “protect their turf”. Just maybe the ideas brought to them for charter schools were really bad and should not have been approved.

@Rick, my guess is that the charter school you would create would really be a publicly funded private school. Would you be willing to take that kid with an IQ of 89? How about those kids who don’t know that their mother’s boyfriend’s ex-girlfriend’s kid is not really their sibling? How long will you keep the kid who disrupts constantly? See, one of the problems with public schools is that we are forced to mitigate the damage that many parents have done.

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Mr.Konop

I’m glad you are following the 10 principals or Planks as layed out in my book. Good work.

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Public School Teacher for Choice, 10:20 am

The Administrative Asst. to the Chief of Staff at the state BOE, told me definitively that the state BOE does not appeal decisions of local BOEs, but that the state BOE has had and still has the authority to approve state charter schools. The coming election will have no bearing on that fact, according to the Aministrative Assistant.

Your post deals in speculation and fears, imo. We have no knowledge that a judge would overturn the right of the state BOE to establish state charter schools. The state Commission for Charter Schools is unnecessary. Furthermore, it does make a difference who approves the state charter schools. The Commission for Charter Schools would be an appointed body, not an elected one. Moreover, from all that has transpired around this constitutional amendment, I highly suspect that this amendment is basically a political undertaking.

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Please note the difference between “Charter Schools” and “Special Charter Schools”. The Georgia Charter Schools Commission can now only approve “Special Charter Schools”. A charter must obtain “special school” status in order for the commission to consider approving it.

The Georgia Charter Schools, Amendment 1, addresses this issue and alleviates any confusion regarding the authority the state has to approve and fund charter schools.

http://www.senate.ga.gov/sro/Documents/AtIssue/atissue_nov11.pdf

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@Batgirl: but you DON’T mitigate the damage. Your traditional public schools require absolutely nothing from parents; it’s a no-strings entitlement. And when you ask nothing of parents nothing is what you too often get. A charter school’s main strength is that it CAN set rules and enforce them, and therefore remove disruptive students. Harsh? Sure. Necessary? Absolutely. As for spec-ed kids, we’d follow the law. There is no such thing as a publicly funded private school, by the way, as you well know, and that’s a lazy rhetorical trick that’s unworthy of you.

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@Rick L in ATL,
Run for school board or move.

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John,
Nobody is forced go to a charter school. The school board votes have been split and if the community didn’t vote 100% against charters, then there are some people who want them.

Why would you deny them that choice? Why would you tell them which schools to go to and which schools they can not go to, comrade?

State money follows the child but the local money does not. Therefore, Cherokee will have more money per child in the traditional schools for every child that goes to a charter. If a charter school opens and nobody goes to it then it will fail and close.

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Long Time Educator,
Move ?? You must be one of the administrators. The rest of us have either been RIF’d or furloughed and can barely pay for the mortgage we are upside down on.

Run for School Board ?? They make 20K annually. I refer you to said point number one.

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@long time educator: I’ll choose option C, winning this vote in Nov. Meet you at the big red-state scoreboard, on Nov. 7, mmkay?

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John,
I’m not saying a majority of people want charters, but SOME people obviously want charters. You’re telling me you know what is best for their children and are denying them those choices.

I’m well aware of the Educational Industrial Complex. Traditional schools are in no better place than charter schools when it comes to the private/public partnership. Please let me know when move to excise private industry from education, I will be your strongest ally. The private companies argument is a red-herring.

You can divert the conversation to the state budget, but my fact still remains (so I will repeat it). State money follows the child but the local money does not. Therefore, Cherokee will have more money per child in the traditional schools for every child that goes to a charter.

Oh … and … “Sticks and Stones”

Side Note
Have you considered converting any of Cherokee’s schools to charter? Walton High School, in Cobb, is one of the best high schools in the country. In 1998 they converted to charter to alter and transcend certain regulations the state school board put into place to further academic and extracurricular success.

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John said – We should be focusing the resources in the places that we have the needs.

If Cherokee has more money per child, then you are focusing your money where you need it.

You don’t want charters … I get it. I hope you understand that others in Cherokee do and you are trying to deny them that. As someone who professes to know more about economics than I do, you should know that these people know what is best for their children.

You have been commendably involved with education for quite some time. I wish we had hundreds of more people like you around the state. I was just thinking that charters are not just for struggling counties. Perhaps instead of fighting against them, maybe you could find a way for charters to work for you … like Walton did.

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John,
Pardonnez-moi. You don’t want “this charter school amendment”.

You say you want charters on a needs basis. I argue that you are being selfish and only want charters based on YOUR needs. You are projecting yourself and assume the entire community’s needs are the same as your needs.

Some people in Cherokee have expressed that the Cherokee schools do not fit THEIR needs and would like charters. People know what is best for themselves and their children. Don’t presume to know what is best for their children. Don’t deny them choices to schools that they say they need.

Cherokee County College is a fine community college. Would you deny Cherokee County residents the option to go to Ga Tech? Yet, you would deny them the option to go to a public charter school.

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RE: Walton’s charter. First off, Walton was the highest performing HS in Cobb 25 years ago when I went to another Cobb HS- well before their charter status. In past years, EVERY senior at Walton has taken the SAT and their average STILL beat out everyone else (and if you don’t understand why that’s impressive, ask a math teacher). I don’t know if that’s still the case,but it still speaks to the Walton population- which, by the way, is very affluent, and I’d surmise predominately college-educated, so take that for what it’s worth.

So, when Walton became a charter school, along with a couple of elementary schools in Cobb, here’s what they opted out of (based on how I read their charter, which is on the Cobb website):

– they don’t have to adopt the county textbooks; they can take their textbook allotment and buy a different text.
–exemptions for “seat time” for students- this allows for “Wonderful Wednesdays” when school is half-day and the kids can clubs and other extra-curricular activities along with getting extra help in their classes.
–staff development– seems I recall something about them getting their staff development funds to use for SD that they chose, not from the county.

So, we’re not talking about massive changes here- curriculum is still from the state, testing is the same, the same paperwork and nonsense required by the state and feds is still done. The way I see it, Walton tweaked a few things to make their “product” (i.e. the academic environment) a better fit for their “audience”. Which makes good business sense, if we’re going to insist on thinking that schools can or should be run like a business.
Why am I not hearing any of the charter supporters- especially those under the Gold Dome, lobbying for this kind of charter? I can totally support a community working to make the schools that are already there better.

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@ Rick, Now I see: you are in favor of a federal take-over of education through the peerless leadership of Mitt Romney. Perhaps there is a principle there after all. Count me among the many “squishy-soft” (I am sure you are a hard man) and “muddleheaded cohort” in Morningside and elsewhere who believe that the public education system, for all its warts, has been and continues to be the single most important institution that has contributed to making ours a great and successful (and democratic) nation. I also believe in a truly “conservative” approach of not destroying an institution that has served such an important function unless there is strong evidentiary basis for concluding that doing so will result in something better and promote the welfare of our society. (A religious devotion to “The Market” does not count as evidence.) I recognize that you believe otherwise and am sorry that your experience as a parent in our school system has not been as positive as that of me and most of your “squishy soft” and “muddleheaded” neighbors. I am happy for you that you can see things so much more clearly than the rest of us.

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John,

What I know, is that some Cherokee residents want charter schools. Your son can choose what college to go to, but you would deny Cherokee residents the choice of which high school to go to?

John Says
You would be smart to have them in the advance math program in Cherokee county schools over charter schools.

Once again you are forcing YOUR desires and YOUR opinions on the residents of Cherokee county. It doesn’t matter how high the Cherokee advanced math program is ranked. Some people don’t want to go there. If you knew anything about economics you would understand that people know what is best for themselves and their own children.

Neither you nor some educrat can tell people what school is best for them … comrade.

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DeKalb Inside Out.
John Konop’s economic acumen comes from the school of hard knocks. He is obviously educated but not academically trained in economics. Your academic conversation with him over the economics of charter schools comes across as whiny to lay people.

To be clear, terms like self interest, market signals, choice, command economies (comrade – USSR – I picked up on that one) are all academic economic terms. The rest of us would appreciate a debate where we are all on the same page.

On that note, who are these whiny Cherokee residents you are referring to? I don’t care what their needs are. They have access to a top notch high school program. They will go there and they will like it. You get to choose your college and not your high school. That’s just the way it is.

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Dek,

…..John Konop’s economic acumen comes from the school of hard knocks. He is obviously educated but not academically trained in economics. Your academic conversation with him over the economics of charter schools comes across as whiny to lay people…..

I graduated from the University of Cincinnati Planning School almost 30 years ago. I did my degree in 3 years going summers and had a GPA over 3. The requirements for a degree had classes in economics, statistics and research methods for obvious reasons. I ended up in business, and it is true I also learned a lot from the school of hard knocks and studying the issue. I am in the finance business, obviously economics is a big issue. For the record I was predicting the last crash, when many called me “chicken little”.

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@ Dekalb Inside Out. Urban planning is not connected with Business schools. It’s concerned with the control and use of land in the urban environment, and involves architecture, urban design, urban policies relating to this, and so on. I’ve had professional dealings with Atlanta’s city planners, and believe me, planners are familiar with economics!

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Dek,

If you really did study economics, you cannot apply supply and demand concepts to private/public transaction ie charter school with private management company. This was the cornerstone arguements made by Adam Smith. Not to be rude you sound foolish to anyone who ever took a basic college economics class. This is the probllem when you only know the talking points, and not the concepts. I would suggest reading more and listen to talking points less.

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John,
Where did Adam Smith ever say:
You cannot apply supply and demand concepts to private/public transaction ie charter school with private management company. This was the cornerstone arguements made by Adam Smith.

Adam Smith? Are you talking about some guy down the street or the free-market capitalist? Adam Smith conceived “the invisible hand of the market” and that’s EXACTLY what I’m talking about. If you don’t allow the state to create charters in Cherokee then there is NO market … a.k.a … a command economy.

The Invisible Hand is The Market
Competition between buyers and sellers that channels the profit motive of individuals on both sides of the transaction such that improved products are produced and at lower costs
Profit – Each student represents $5K – $20K in potential state funds.
Buyer – Cherokee students
Seller – Cherokee School System and public charter schools
Product – Education

You have been very critical of my knowledge of economics saying, among other things, “you sound foolish to anyone who ever took a basic college economics class”.

Supply & Demand is to Economics what 2+2 is to Engineering.

FYI – Economics is the study of the allocation of limited resources given unlimited wants. It is essentially a constrained optimization problem.

I’m repeating talking points ?? I challenge you to show me the talking points I’m repeating. Nobody talks about command and market economies like I do … except Nancy Jester who has a PhD in economics from Emory.

I have highlighted the economic terms for your reference. Here endeth your first real lesson in economics.

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John,
You are correct that “the shenanigans” of business leaders resulted in much marketplace mayhem of the financial sector. These corporate crooks were also aided by politicians and bureaucrats along the way. Similar corrupt practices happen in other markets as well. Corruption and collusion are not arguments against capitalism. They are arguments for transparent and deregulated free enterprise. Make the playing field fair and let the participants engage in trade. That is the call of Adam Smith and more recently Milton Friedman and the entire Chicago School of Economics with all those Nobel Prizes.

In education we currently have the worst of all worlds. We have government bureaucrats choosing how to allocate resources for education. This includes how they pay themselves and their staff. (Didn’t you see the story on 11 Alive about the car allowances and drivers?) Adam Smith and all economists start from the premise that all individuals are self interested. They are seeking to maximize their personal utility frontier. If you are an educrat sitting at the top, there is very little marketplace constraint on you “maximizing” your “utility” with the public’s dollar. The set up is very favorable for bureaucrats to collude with themselves and board members.

Just like with the military, the education industry is vibrant and encourages a constant rate of change and trendiness in education. It isn’t a mystery how to teach reading or math but somehow we find the need for new books and new techniques. It’s a cozy industry. Superintendents and educrats can find a sweet job waiting for them after they give a lucrative contract to this or that edu-company. Keeping our current public system in a state of chaos and with unfulfilled promises, is a terrific technique for continuing to extort more money from the taxpayers because “it’s for the children”.

Imagine, if you will, a more flexible allocation of resources that doesn’t depend on a command, bureaucrat-controlled system. What if consumers go into the educational marketplace and choose the product that best fits them? This concept has a lower probability of producing waste, fraud and collusion because it minimizes those parties that would benefit from such a framework.

Surely you realize that the Justice Department has an “anti-trust” division. There are also other regulatory entities that should watch over market places and make sure they are fair. Unfortunately, when you have too much regulation, too many in government profiting from an endeavor and when power is concentrated in too few people, that is the petri dish where trouble breeds. Letting the resources be controlled by parents, by smaller groups of people, reduces the risk that a marketplace will be tainted.

Get Schooled editors, feel free to use this comment as a post.

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@Dekalb Inside Out – As I read your comments they seem to argue both for and againest the privatization of public education at the same time, which is quite remarkable.

I believe your observations lean in a direction that suggests privatization of public education would go the way of derivative market. Personally, I believe the majority tools goverance exist to effective manage the situation. Further I don’t think the question is one of fiscal scarcity, as much as it involves the mind state of those appointed as custodians of the public trust have simply failed in their duty in many cases.

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C Jae of EAV
I am unequivocally in favor of markets rather than the bureaucrat, central control that we have now. John was arguing that you can’t/shouldn’t have interactions in a market place with public and private components because that leads to collusion and corruption. My point is that there are always individuals in all markets (and control systems) that cheat. That isn’t an argument for not having markets. You must have markets with transparency and non-onerous regulation. Markets let people choose. In education, this would mean that parents would be able to choose their child’s school rather than giving that power exclusively to a bureaucrat. Those bureaucrats have little incentive to do anything other than “fail in their duty”. The beauty of the market is that individuals making their own decisions for their own children have the right incentives to maximize the return on their child’s education while being provided the opportunity to finally do so.

John said
The person who came up with concepts of free market economics was clear as bell that you cannot apply his theory to private/public transactions.

John, No Sir, it is you who are missing the point. There are opportunities for corruption within all transactions be they private/private, public/private, public/public. Again, the fact that some individuals cheat, is NOT an argument against markets. Please hear me on this – I’m arguing FOR markets. We currently do NOT have markets. We have a system controlled from a central authority. I want power dispersed among the various buyers and sellers of the product so that the market can create an efficient (in the strict economic meaning of the word efficient) outcome. Right now we have central control and it is not efficient nor will it ever be. Having a market-based industry is the opposite of socialism.

Email Dr. Jester, ask her yourself, and let us know verbatim what she says (I know for a fact you won’t). In addition to being an economist, she’s on the Board of Education in DeKalb and is VERY responsive to emails.

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John,

1. Would you agree I am advocating for a market as stated in the first sentence of my last comment: I am unequivocally in favor of markets?

2. Would you agree you are opposed to a market in areas that you say don’t need one as indicated in your statement As far as charters I would have no issue helping one in an area that needs one.

Simple questions.

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John,
I can’t tell if this last comment was in response to my simple questions. Assuming it was …

I didn’t say anything about private schools, public/private partnerships, tax dollars …etc … I asked two very simple questions. It would help me to know your understanding of said questions … Thanks! I’ll repeat the questions.

Question 1. Would you agree I am in favor of markets?
I stated I am unequivocally in favor of markets a few comments ago.

Question 2. Would you agree you are opposed to charters in areas like Cherokee that you say don’t need one?
Here are some of your comments in this thread that support that:
* As far as charters I would have no issue helping one in an area that needs one.
* Can you understand the frustration of people in Cherokee county being forced to have a charter school when we have the highest SAT scores in the state

Pretty simple questions.

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WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? As I said you are just cherry picking……

…………..The taxpayers of Cherokee County have already been burned with similar deals. For example, we may lose $50 million that went to fund a private recycler that went bust (leaving taxpayers again holding the bag). As you well know, taxpayers across the country have already lost massive amounts of money in poorly structured charter schools deals. For the record, I support charter schools and believe they play an important and positive role in our education system. What I do not support is officeholders like you that make foolish and emotional decisions with taxpayer money.

In closing, Mr. Geist, here are some questions that the taxpayers of Cherokee County would like your answers to:

•Please list all the other school district services that a vendor can perform where taxpayers provide free start-up capital and guaranteed revenue, all with no penalty for failure to perform. Assuming you can’t provide such a list, why did you support the private owner/operators of the Cherokee Charter Academy receiving such a deal?

• Why do you support a charter amendment that does not include the taxpayer protections needed to prevent CCA-like deals from happening again?…………

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John,
Name the bet

OK. I have the bet, as you asked me to do. Email Dr Jester (nancyjester@gmail.com) and me (dekalbinsideout@gmail.com) and ask her. We will publish her comments right here. Or send me your email address and I will be happy to email her.

The Concept in Question
“Adam Smith, who came up with concepts of free market economics, was clear as bell that you cannot apply his theory [of free market economics] to private/public transactions”

I say he did not and you say that he did. If it’s clear as a bell then it should be cut and dry.

The Bet
If Nancy agrees with me, then I may refer to use as “The Moron” John Konop with impunity from you. If Nancy agrees with you then you may refer to me as “The Moron” DeKalb Inside Out with impunity from me.

You are very confident in your stance, allegedly. Let’s see if you really mean it … or anything else you say.

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Cherry Picking? That comment was the cornerstone of your debate and has been brought up over and over. OK … What concept is in question if not that one?

Let’s agree on the concept first. Then post our statements that we will give to Dr Jester.

I hardly doubt Dr Jester has the time to meet with us and settle this childish squabble. Once we decide on a concept and you put your facts together, I will email you and Dr Jester said concept and statements from both of us. I will ask her to reply back to us.

I liken you to a blog troll that spouts out nonsense and hits the eject button when the rubber hits the road. Please prove me wrong and come up with a concept. Email me an email address I can use to CC you when I email Dr Jester.

Don’t be a blog troll.

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John “The Blog Troll” Konop
If you believe in this debate so much then let’s contact Dr Jester, otherwise you, sir, are a Blog Troll. The rubber has hit the road and I have called you out. Your response …

EJECT … EJECT … EJECT (tail between legs)

You have asked repeatedly that we contact Dr Jester, so let’s do it!!!! Until you stand by your statements I will refer to you as John “The Blog Troll” Konop and the link on your name will take you directly to the comments where you challenged me and proceeded to cower out the back door when I accepted.

Prove me wrong Blog Troll.

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P.S. @ John Konop. I hope you have enough sense not to send your email address to Dekalb Inside Out as he/she demands!

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@Prof
I hear ya. On this very thread on 10/4 @ 3:40pm I said this of John “TBT” Konop
You have been commendably involved with education for quite some time. I wish we had hundreds of more people like you around the state.

As the conversation went on, TBT lost it. Given my educational background and experience, the debate on economics and free markets was admittedly unfair. I just wanted to see how long he could keep up the charade. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but in my humble opinion he was blogging like a troll.

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[...] a ruling a few weeks ago, the Georgia Attorney General said that school systems could not use public resources/funds to either oppose or support the charter schools amendment on [...]

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