Charter school battle turns ugly as legal arguments heat up
Proponents of the November charter school amendment have protested state School Superintendent John Barge’s public stand against the amendment on the DOE web site, which led the state Department of Education to take down a 29-point position paper highlighting the reasons. A link to that paper was on the Georgia Department of Education’s home page.
Today, Attorney General Sam Olens notified Barge to alert local school boards that they “do not have the legal authority to expend funds or other resources to advocate or oppose the ratification of a constitutional amendment by the voters. They may not do this directly or indirectly through associations to which they may belong.”
But Atlanta attorney Emmet Bondurant says Olens — who cited a Bondurant case in his letter — cannot stop elected officials from protesting the amendment.
He says:
I represented the plaintiffs in McKinney v. Brown, one of the leading cases cited in the AG’s opinion..
While the AG is right that a public agency (including the governor and the Legislature) should not use public funds to try to influence the outcome of a referendum, it does not follow that John Barge, as the elected State School Superintendent, or local School Superintendents or members of local School Boards are also prohibited from speaking out and advocating the passage or the defeat of a referendum.
They have the same First Amendment rights as any other citizen to speak out in opposition to a constitutional amendment. The fact that their position may be contrary to that of the Governor and the Republican administration is of no consequence.
The opinion states only that they may not spend public funds or resources to influence the voters’ decision. The same principle applies with equal force to the Governor, the Speaker and other public officials. They should not use public funds, or public resources, (including staff time and public email and web sites) to support ratification.
What’s odd to me about this issue is that it can cut both ways. I have seen charter schools bring their students to the Legislature and to rallies to support the amendment.
Is that also illegal due to the public costs of bringing teachers and kids to the Capitol during the school day?
–from Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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123 comments Add your comment
Dr. Monica Henson
October 4th, 2012
9:13 am
@Larry Major, the Charter Schools Division did inform all charter school leaders of the decision. The Georgia Charter Schools Association does receive funds from its member charter schools to pay for their institutional memberships. They are subject to the same restrictions as the Georgia School Boards Association with regard to use of school funds to campaign for or against the amendment. Information only, no advocacy of how to vote. The campaign in favor of the amendment is not coordinated by GCSA, but by the Brighter Georgia Education Coalition, which is a separate entity funded entirely by donations from private individuals and private businesses, not by charter schools, charter school boards, or GCSA. If GSBA had taken this approach themselves, they wouldn’t be in the boat they’re in now with the AG opinion.
Sandy Springs Parent
October 4th, 2012
9:45 am
I can’t wait until all these Charter Schools find out just like all the Federal contractors eventually do, that you can not use Federal money, for lobbying, for entertainment, for taking anyone to lunch, dinner, buying them a drink. It gets paid for a while. And then someone does an Audit and it all gets disallowed. That is what Fulton County did to the Math and Science Charter in Fulton County, you don’t get to pay for Teacher’s visa’s to the US, let alone their spouses. You don’t get to pay for the president of the school and certain teachers to have free vacations in Turkey. You don’t get to pay men a different higher pay rate than women. You don’t get to run things like you want or they do in the private sector where they reward friends via pay and bonuses or trips.
Sandy Springs Parent
October 4th, 2012
9:46 am
I meant Charter not Chaurter. I wish you would have spell check Maureen. I only get it on my I-pad.
Maureen Downey
October 4th, 2012
9:47 am
@Sandy, I fixed.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 4th, 2012
9:53 am
Bullying? I don’t see it.
Superintendent Barge requested Sam Olen’s opinion regarding Use of public resources by local government entities to influence ballot questions
Sam Olen’s opinion is non partisan:
Local school boards do not have the legal authority to expend funds or other resources to advocate or oppose the ratification of a constitutional amendment by the voters.
The opposition to the amendment is taking this as a shot at them because they are the majority of entities breaking this law and affected by the Attorney General’s response to Barge’s request.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
9:59 am
Dr Henson,
……….. The Georgia Charter Schools Association does receive funds from its member charter schools to pay for their institutional memberships. They are subject to the same restrictions as the Georgia School Boards Association with regard to use of school funds to campaign for or against the amendment. Information only, no advocacy of how to vote…………
I am confused, Charter USA gets a contract worth about million dollars a year for a management contract with Cherokee Charter which is tax payer money, btw that fee is negotiated per school. Have they not donated money in support of the amendment and or amendment sponsors , if so how is this legal? Why could Cherokee Charter have a promotion campaign part of their board meeting?
Rick L in ATL
October 4th, 2012
10:07 am
I don’t understand the argument that for-profit charter companies are the reason not to vote yes on this. We have seriously considered starting a charter school in the Morningside/Va-Hi area so our kids could have a REAL digital arts program and a real STEM program, and a true gifted program (not the “gifted program theater” that APS provides, along with its criminally awful “special ed theater.”)
We would NEVER in a million years hire a for-profit firm to run the show; we have plenty of parent talent available right here on my street.
I understand that some communities may feel they lack the expertise to run a school using a parent board, but they’re wrong. It’s not rocket science. If it were the least bit difficult, the thoroughly mediocre people APS has in place couldn’t even get the doors open in the morning. The only reason parents couldn’t run a school better than the dreary municipal employees we have now is lack of want-to.
If you all want to stipulate that no charter can obtain approval if its application relies on a for-profit management company, I’m right there with you. Let’s take profit motive out of the argument–and then you’ll have to find another straw man.
Rick L in ATL
October 4th, 2012
10:12 am
Once again–you can argue all you want about how this is measure is unnecessary, wasteful and an abdication of local control. But here’s my rebuttal: LaChandra “Blue Ribbon” Butler Burks. Cecily “I Heart Bev” Harsch-Kinnane. Courtney “Whoo Hoo, Free Visa Card!” English. And we have all that malignancy on just ONE BOE!
So long as people like these populate local school boards, parents will have to scramble to minimize the damage they can do.
Our society elects a LOT of incompetent people to offices they’re not skilled enough to administer (ahem, ahem). Don’t blame us when we try to mitigate those errors.
PublicSchoolTeacherforChoice
October 4th, 2012
10:20 am
@MaryElizabeth, The state BOE does have the right to approve appeals at the present time, and that’s exactly what I want to protect. History has shown, from 2011 lawsuit, that the Supreme Court will take away that right when a local board sues. The grounds they used to take the right away from the Charter Schools Commission can be used to take it away from the state BOE as well. Only a constitutional amendment will protect this right. I wish the amendment would have just not mentioned recreating the Commission, but it does and it really doesn’t matter who the handful of state people are that will be approving appeals. I think either will do fine, the state boe or the commission(which is all volunteer, no pay). But the right for the state to do so is at risk here.
APS Parent
October 4th, 2012
10:36 am
@Rick L: So I gather that, based solely on your dislike of the current elected APS Board, you would prefer that our constitution be amended to turn over decision-making about creating charter schools, and handing them the taxpayers’ money, to a group of unelected and unaccountable individuals that is hand-picked by the governor and majority leaders in the General Assembly. Is yours a principled position against local control? Or does it grow out or your frustration (evidenced by many of your posts on this blog) about holding political positions that are not shared by a majority of Atlanta residents, including those in your own neighborhood?
Batgirl
October 4th, 2012
10:55 am
@Cactus, excellent comments.
To those who say that public schools did this to themselves because local boards refused to approve charters: Does it occur to you that maybe the local boards have had good reason not to approve certain charter schools? Just maybe they weren’t trying to “protect their turf”. Just maybe the ideas brought to them for charter schools were really bad and should not have been approved.
@Rick, my guess is that the charter school you would create would really be a publicly funded private school. Would you be willing to take that kid with an IQ of 89? How about those kids who don’t know that their mother’s boyfriend’s ex-girlfriend’s kid is not really their sibling? How long will you keep the kid who disrupts constantly? See, one of the problems with public schools is that we are forced to mitigate the damage that many parents have done.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 4th, 2012
10:58 am
So what if the Charter Commission is unelected? The State School Board is also unelected. And members of both are appointed by people who are elected. The people who really matter in this equation, the parents and students, do have a choice and with a charter school they can “elect” to attend a school of their choosing. In the absence of charter schools they do not have that choice.
Charters – The Ultimate Local Control
Like Nancy Jester said, “a group of citizens would have to organize, plan, petition, govern and ultimately send their children to the charter school. That is the ultimate local control – it is micro control – it is parent control.”
http://whatsupwiththat.nancyjester.com/2012/08/30/reformation-and-the-charter-school-amendment/
Karl Marx
October 4th, 2012
11:17 am
Mr.Konop
I’m glad you are following the 10 principals or Planks as layed out in my book. Good work.
Mary Elizabeth
October 4th, 2012
11:23 am
Ron F, 11:19 pm, Oct.3, 2012
Excellent analysis, Ron. Very well stated. Thank you!
Mary Elizabeth
October 4th, 2012
11:36 am
Public School Teacher for Choice, 10:20 am
The Administrative Asst. to the Chief of Staff at the state BOE, told me definitively that the state BOE does not appeal decisions of local BOEs, but that the state BOE has had and still has the authority to approve state charter schools. The coming election will have no bearing on that fact, according to the Aministrative Assistant.
Your post deals in speculation and fears, imo. We have no knowledge that a judge would overturn the right of the state BOE to establish state charter schools. The state Commission for Charter Schools is unnecessary. Furthermore, it does make a difference who approves the state charter schools. The Commission for Charter Schools would be an appointed body, not an elected one. Moreover, from all that has transpired around this constitutional amendment, I highly suspect that this amendment is basically a political undertaking.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
11:43 am
Karl I am confused Marx,
…..Mr.Konop
I’m glad you are following the 10 principals or Planks as layed out in my book. Good work….
Have you ever taken a class in economics? You know the father of the free market system ( Adam Smith) WARNED against private/public partnership for obvious reasons in his book “Wealth of Nations” which free market based economics is taught and based on. But hey please do not let FACTS get in the way you FEEL about the issue. Click your three times and say I will read and study issues before I put my foot in my mouth.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 4th, 2012
11:50 am
Please note the difference between “Charter Schools” and “Special Charter Schools”. The Georgia Charter Schools Commission can now only approve “Special Charter Schools”. A charter must obtain “special school” status in order for the commission to consider approving it.
The Georgia Charter Schools, Amendment 1, addresses this issue and alleviates any confusion regarding the authority the state has to approve and fund charter schools.
http://www.senate.ga.gov/sro/Documents/AtIssue/atissue_nov11.pdf
Rick L in ATL
October 4th, 2012
12:57 pm
@APS parent–my “political position”on this matter is that our APS schools have an unbroken, decades-long record of failure; that parents should have options, and that our APS BOE is a dysfunctional hot mess populated by unqualified hobbyists (Harsch-Kinnane) and grandstanders (Butler-Burks) who aren’t fit to be elected dogcatcher. Please feel free to use this space to defend the status quo. I’m all ears.
Rick L in ATL
October 4th, 2012
1:02 pm
@Batgirl: but you DON’T mitigate the damage. Your traditional public schools require absolutely nothing from parents; it’s a no-strings entitlement. And when you ask nothing of parents nothing is what you too often get. A charter school’s main strength is that it CAN set rules and enforce them, and therefore remove disruptive students. Harsh? Sure. Necessary? Absolutely. As for spec-ed kids, we’d follow the law. There is no such thing as a publicly funded private school, by the way, as you well know, and that’s a lazy rhetorical trick that’s unworthy of you.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
1:38 pm
Rick,
I am not anti charter school. And I can see your frustration with the issues especially in your location. All I am asking for are stricter rules on private companies jumping into the space on top of the regular standards. Can you understand the frustration of people in Cherokee county being forced to have a charter school when we have the highest SAT scores in the state? And the charter school offer nothing more than what we already have in our community. Not only did our school board say no the voters did also in out last election . I am all for school options, but this is a waste of money in my community when we have much bigger needs ie vocational, arts, special needs programs…….. And if they would of solved that problem I would have been 100% behind them with proper controls in place.
long time educator
October 4th, 2012
1:58 pm
@Rick L in ATL,
Run for school board or move.
Dr. Monica Henson
October 4th, 2012
2:08 pm
Mr. Konop, it would be inappropriate for any charter school board to promote the amendment during a board meeting or otherwise, although individual board members are free on their own time and on their own dime to do so as private citizens, just like district school board members.
A private corporation is permitted to donate funds to a political cause while a school board or a charter board of directors is not. The CSUSA/Cherokee Charter situation you describe is analagous to a textbook publisher that has a contract to provide textbooks to Atlanta Public Schools contributing to a campaign that is working for a result that would be favorable to Atlanta Public Schools.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 4th, 2012
2:13 pm
John,
Nobody is forced go to a charter school. The school board votes have been split and if the community didn’t vote 100% against charters, then there are some people who want them.
Why would you deny them that choice? Why would you tell them which schools to go to and which schools they can not go to, comrade?
State money follows the child but the local money does not. Therefore, Cherokee will have more money per child in the traditional schools for every child that goes to a charter. If a charter school opens and nobody goes to it then it will fail and close.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
2:17 pm
Dr. Henson
………. A private corporation is permitted to donate funds to a political cause while a school board or a charter board of directors is not. The CSUSA/Cherokee Charter situation you describe is analagous to a textbook publisher that has a contract to provide textbooks to Atlanta Public Schools contributing to a campaign that is working for a result that would be favorable to Atlanta Public Schools………
In all due respect, a private management company should be treated different than a regular vendor. The book company is not in charge of the budget, personal……….It seems strange to me.
DeKalb Teacher
October 4th, 2012
2:21 pm
Long Time Educator,
Move ?? You must be one of the administrators. The rest of us have either been RIF’d or furloughed and can barely pay for the mortgage we are upside down on.
Run for School Board ?? They make 20K annually. I refer you to said point number one.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
2:29 pm
Dek,
……..Nobody is forced go to a charter school. The school board votes have been split and if the community didn’t vote 100% against charters, then there are some people who want them….
The school board vote was 4-2. And Danny Duke Charter Board member for the county wide seat get beat bad by Janet Read.
…….Why would you deny them that choice? Why would you tell them which schools to go to and which schools they can not go to, comrade?…
“Comrade” Obviously, economics was not a strong class for you! You know the father of the free market system ( Adam Smith) WARNED against private/public partnership for obvious reasons in his book “Wealth of Nations” which free market based economics is taught and based on. But hey please do not let FACTS get in the way you FEEL about the issue.
……State money follows the child but the local money does not. Therefore, Cherokee will have more money per child in the traditional schools for every child that goes to a charter. If a charter school opens and nobody goes to it then it will fail and close……
The problem with your math is the state gives out 2.5 times the amount per student for charter kids. And the state contributes about 40% of the cost per student. If they keep this up as warned by the CATO institute it will create massive budget issue ie like in New Hampshire. But hey please do not let FACTS get in the way you FEEL about the issue. On I forgot economics is not your cup of tea.
Rick L in ATL
October 4th, 2012
2:37 pm
@long time educator: I’ll choose option C, winning this vote in Nov. Meet you at the big red-state scoreboard, on Nov. 7, mmkay?
Rick L in ATL
October 4th, 2012
2:43 pm
@ John: As I look around, I see one Cherokee… but I see far too many APS’s, DeKalbs, Claytons… as other parents have said on this blog, the examples of turf-protecting, status-quo-defending, charter-school-opposing BOE members are too numerous to mention. Nobody likes the fact that we now have to engineer an end-run around these fools (and the activist judges who wrote that crazy ruling about ’special’ schools), but we do. And we will.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 4th, 2012
2:52 pm
John,
I’m not saying a majority of people want charters, but SOME people obviously want charters. You’re telling me you know what is best for their children and are denying them those choices.
I’m well aware of the Educational Industrial Complex. Traditional schools are in no better place than charter schools when it comes to the private/public partnership. Please let me know when move to excise private industry from education, I will be your strongest ally. The private companies argument is a red-herring.
You can divert the conversation to the state budget, but my fact still remains (so I will repeat it). State money follows the child but the local money does not. Therefore, Cherokee will have more money per child in the traditional schools for every child that goes to a charter.
Oh … and … “Sticks and Stones”
Side Note
Have you considered converting any of Cherokee’s schools to charter? Walton High School, in Cobb, is one of the best high schools in the country. In 1998 they converted to charter to alter and transcend certain regulations the state school board put into place to further academic and extracurricular success.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
3:21 pm
Dek,
……You can divert the conversation to the state budget, but my fact still remains (so I will repeat it). State money follows the child but the local money does not. Therefore, Cherokee will have more money per child in the traditional schools for every child that goes to a charter…
In all due respect I am not diverting the debate. I am only pointing out if this is not well thought out with proper controls it will blow up like New Hampshire. I look at this issue as a resource math problem. We should be focusing the resources in the places that we have the needs. Obviously the area you live in and Rick L have different needs than Cherokee, East Cobb…… I do think we should have different tracks based on the area. An area with basic school issues should have a faster track system with proper controls……… And if any area does not have a school that supports ie math/science, vocational, special needs….. ie same fast track………….. But to open schools with tax payer money just because you are unhappy is not wise in this fiscal environment, especially without proper controls…..
Finally Cobb started declaring public schools charter over the math 123 issue years ago………I am not sure if that is what first spurred Walton…..But I was heavily involved with protesting the math 123 and suggested our own county do this instead of waivers years ago………I first heard about it when a school board member from Marietta read one of my articles years ago about math 123 and called me. He was the one that came up with the concept from my knowledge. A real bright guy, and knew a ton about education!
DeKalb Inside Out
October 4th, 2012
3:40 pm
John said – We should be focusing the resources in the places that we have the needs.
If Cherokee has more money per child, then you are focusing your money where you need it.
You don’t want charters … I get it. I hope you understand that others in Cherokee do and you are trying to deny them that. As someone who professes to know more about economics than I do, you should know that these people know what is best for their children.
You have been commendably involved with education for quite some time. I wish we had hundreds of more people like you around the state. I was just thinking that charters are not just for struggling counties. Perhaps instead of fighting against them, maybe you could find a way for charters to work for you … like Walton did.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
3:58 pm
Dek,
….You don’t want charters …
That not true, I want charters based on a need basis…… If not I fear will run out of money…………As far as charters I would have no issue helping one in an area that needs one. I also like the on- line charter concept Dr. Henson is promoting….. In fact I am working as a volunteer to promote a home school/public school option in our county.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 4th, 2012
5:00 pm
John,
Pardonnez-moi. You don’t want “this charter school amendment”.
You say you want charters on a needs basis. I argue that you are being selfish and only want charters based on YOUR needs. You are projecting yourself and assume the entire community’s needs are the same as your needs.
Some people in Cherokee have expressed that the Cherokee schools do not fit THEIR needs and would like charters. People know what is best for themselves and their children. Don’t presume to know what is best for their children. Don’t deny them choices to schools that they say they need.
Cherokee County College is a fine community college. Would you deny Cherokee County residents the option to go to Ga Tech? Yet, you would deny them the option to go to a public charter school.
APS Parent
October 4th, 2012
5:14 pm
@ Rick, Thanks for confirming what I suspected — that yours is not a principled position against local control but just your unhappiness with the board members that your neighbors and fellow Atlanta residents elect. I cannot say that I share your apparent faith in the folks under the Gold Dome to know what is right for Atlanta when it comes to charter schools, particularly seeing that there are already nine local board-approved start-up charter schools currently operating in Atlanta. Hostility to the concept of charter schools does not appear to be an issue with the APS Board. In fact, they recently rejected the Superintendent’s recommendation and approved Drew Charter expanding to add a high school.
Holly Jones
October 4th, 2012
5:31 pm
RE: Walton’s charter. First off, Walton was the highest performing HS in Cobb 25 years ago when I went to another Cobb HS- well before their charter status. In past years, EVERY senior at Walton has taken the SAT and their average STILL beat out everyone else (and if you don’t understand why that’s impressive, ask a math teacher). I don’t know if that’s still the case,but it still speaks to the Walton population- which, by the way, is very affluent, and I’d surmise predominately college-educated, so take that for what it’s worth.
So, when Walton became a charter school, along with a couple of elementary schools in Cobb, here’s what they opted out of (based on how I read their charter, which is on the Cobb website):
– they don’t have to adopt the county textbooks; they can take their textbook allotment and buy a different text.
–exemptions for “seat time” for students- this allows for “Wonderful Wednesdays” when school is half-day and the kids can clubs and other extra-curricular activities along with getting extra help in their classes.
–staff development– seems I recall something about them getting their staff development funds to use for SD that they chose, not from the county.
So, we’re not talking about massive changes here- curriculum is still from the state, testing is the same, the same paperwork and nonsense required by the state and feds is still done. The way I see it, Walton tweaked a few things to make their “product” (i.e. the academic environment) a better fit for their “audience”. Which makes good business sense, if we’re going to insist on thinking that schools can or should be run like a business.
Why am I not hearing any of the charter supporters- especially those under the Gold Dome, lobbying for this kind of charter? I can totally support a community working to make the schools that are already there better.
Rick L in ATL
October 4th, 2012
7:26 pm
@ APS Parent: Yours, actually, is the unprincipled position. You’re the one saying “too bad you elected a bunch of fools to your BOE; now eat it and like it.” Our APS BOE has been, as you point out, all too willing to let some of its worst and most mismanaged schools go charter–who wouldn’t say yes to that? But let’s talk about what’s going to happen when a fed-up parent in the Inman district (maybe me) decides to create a charter with a REAL gifted program and a REAL STEM program and a real arts program.
Faced with losing one of its few jewels (and let’s face it, Inman or SPARK wouldn’t be considered jewels in Massachusetts or Iowa or about 45 other states, but by GA’s abysmally low standards, they are considered to be jewels here), our BOE would say “HELL NO” en masse, before adjourning to enjoy a spa treatment on Courtney English’s APS-issued credit card.
This amendment is insurance against the APS BOE’s future (and certain) chicanery, and that of other similarly incompetent BOEs. Do I wish it weren’t necessary? Of course. But the list of fast-talking politicians who get themselves elected and then prove to be incompetent is a long one, going all the way up to President Xanax (as the NY Times, of all outlets, described him today).
By the way, passing this amendment is also our insurance against a squishy-soft and muddleheaded cohort of mostly government-employed parents in our own neighborhood who never run out of excuses they can make for our train wreck of a public school system. Their “principled stands” include defending the APS BOE member who was (and remains) Bev Hall’s staunchest supporter, our own Cecily Harsch-Kinnane.
But let’s not argue. RomneyVouchers will make the whole issue moot.
APS Parent
October 4th, 2012
8:19 pm
@ Rick, Now I see: you are in favor of a federal take-over of education through the peerless leadership of Mitt Romney. Perhaps there is a principle there after all. Count me among the many “squishy-soft” (I am sure you are a hard man) and “muddleheaded cohort” in Morningside and elsewhere who believe that the public education system, for all its warts, has been and continues to be the single most important institution that has contributed to making ours a great and successful (and democratic) nation. I also believe in a truly “conservative” approach of not destroying an institution that has served such an important function unless there is strong evidentiary basis for concluding that doing so will result in something better and promote the welfare of our society. (A religious devotion to “The Market” does not count as evidence.) I recognize that you believe otherwise and am sorry that your experience as a parent in our school system has not been as positive as that of me and most of your “squishy soft” and “muddleheaded” neighbors. I am happy for you that you can see things so much more clearly than the rest of us.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
8:31 pm
Dek,
This is what I do know, If you want your kid prepared for Georgia Tech you would be smart to have them in the advance math program in Cherokee county schools over the charter. Being Georgia Tech is a math oriented school and the Cherokee advance math program is nationally ranked it would be a good fit. I even pulled my own kids out of private schools to put them in the program. My sons class at Woodstock is doing great at GT. in fact my son told me that the large group is tracking toward all maintaing Hope. That is as good or better than the top private schools. But hey I am just doing the math…….
In all due respect, I am a fiscally conservative businessman that thinks with his head not emotions. you seem like a nice person, but emotional pleas with no facts………..
DeKalb Inside Out
October 4th, 2012
9:34 pm
John,
What I know, is that some Cherokee residents want charter schools. Your son can choose what college to go to, but you would deny Cherokee residents the choice of which high school to go to?
John Says
You would be smart to have them in the advance math program in Cherokee county schools over charter schools.
Once again you are forcing YOUR desires and YOUR opinions on the residents of Cherokee county. It doesn’t matter how high the Cherokee advanced math program is ranked. Some people don’t want to go there. If you knew anything about economics you would understand that people know what is best for themselves and their own children.
Neither you nor some educrat can tell people what school is best for them … comrade.
John Konop
October 4th, 2012
9:48 pm
Dek,
Please do not let facts get in the way you feel about the issue!
Your logic is why send your kid to an award winning math program that works in my community, so you can spend tax payers dollars on something we do not know if it works, to get your kid prepared for Georgia Tech? Wow, you are way to fiscally liberal in my opinion with tax payers money. But it is America…..no wonder we are so far in the red……
DeKalb Teacher
October 5th, 2012
9:42 am
DeKalb Inside Out.
John Konop’s economic acumen comes from the school of hard knocks. He is obviously educated but not academically trained in economics. Your academic conversation with him over the economics of charter schools comes across as whiny to lay people.
To be clear, terms like self interest, market signals, choice, command economies (comrade – USSR – I picked up on that one) are all academic economic terms. The rest of us would appreciate a debate where we are all on the same page.
On that note, who are these whiny Cherokee residents you are referring to? I don’t care what their needs are. They have access to a top notch high school program. They will go there and they will like it. You get to choose your college and not your high school. That’s just the way it is.
C Jae of EAV
October 5th, 2012
11:08 am
I don’t know how many times it has to be said but I’ll venture again to try and clear the air of understand among us.
In GA the concept of a “For Profit Charter Schools” DOES NOT EXIST, PERIOD !! What does exist is the concept of EMO’s(Education Management Organization) & CMO (Charter Mgmt Organizations). EMOs/CMOs essentially provides adminstrative backoffice functional services ( accounting, student records mgmt, budgeting, payroll, circumullum development etc.), that are traditionally performed by local district central office staff. Not every charter school in GA is started by an EMO/CMOs or even makes use of EMO/CMOs but some do. According to the lastest GA DOE Charter school report approximate 11% make use of these services. That would be 18 out of 162 charter schools operating in GA according to the report.
So bottom line if you want to check the profit motive of EMOs/CMOs all that needs to happen is that local districts can continue to provide these services on behalf of charter schools operating in their districts or at least bid to provide the services at a lower cost than EMOs/CMOs. Instead what tends to happen is that the local district take an adverisarial position and refuses to develop any reasonable working relationship with charters that operate within their borders. In turn they complain about the profit potential of EMOs/CMOs who are hired by charter schools to perform the vital services necessary to the operation of any institution.
If we’re going to debate the issue, the least we can do is speak accurately about the position of ALL of the players involved. Do EMOs/CMOs stand to gain from being having more charter schools to be hired by, Yes. Can that profit potential be checked, Yes. Do educrats make any serious attempt to check the potential using goverance measures at there disposal to do so outside of preventing charter schools from forming, No !!
John Konop
October 5th, 2012
2:09 pm
Dek,
…..John Konop’s economic acumen comes from the school of hard knocks. He is obviously educated but not academically trained in economics. Your academic conversation with him over the economics of charter schools comes across as whiny to lay people…..
I graduated from the University of Cincinnati Planning School almost 30 years ago. I did my degree in 3 years going summers and had a GPA over 3. The requirements for a degree had classes in economics, statistics and research methods for obvious reasons. I ended up in business, and it is true I also learned a lot from the school of hard knocks and studying the issue. I am in the finance business, obviously economics is a big issue. For the record I was predicting the last crash, when many called me “chicken little”.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 5th, 2012
2:46 pm
John,
I would consider most MBAs illiterate in economics. I hope your bachelors at the Cincinnati Planning School proves me wrong.
My daughter learned about supply and demand in the 3rd grade. Market vs Command Economies is the basic undergrad economic concept I have been alluding to. Would you care to put your degree to good use and tell us why you are reluctant to move from a command economy to a market economy, comrade?
Please be honest, it’s for posterity.
Prof
October 5th, 2012
3:13 pm
@ Dekalb Inside Out. Urban planning is not connected with Business schools. It’s concerned with the control and use of land in the urban environment, and involves architecture, urban design, urban policies relating to this, and so on. I’ve had professional dealings with Atlanta’s city planners, and believe me, planners are familiar with economics!
DeKalb Inside Out
October 5th, 2012
4:41 pm
Prof,
OK. I’ll rephrase. I would consider just about anybody with a masters degree illiterate in economics much less a bachelors degree. I can add 2+2, but I wouldn’t consider myself literate in engineering.
Hopefully John’s familiarity with economics can shine some light on why he is reluctant to move from a command economy to a market educational economy in education.
John,
This isn’t an emotional conversation. It’s actually textbook economics … quite factual. I’m very interested to know why someone would prefer a command economy for education.
John Konop
October 5th, 2012
11:08 pm
Dek,
If you really did study economics, you cannot apply supply and demand concepts to private/public transaction ie charter school with private management company. This was the cornerstone arguements made by Adam Smith. Not to be rude you sound foolish to anyone who ever took a basic college economics class. This is the probllem when you only know the talking points, and not the concepts. I would suggest reading more and listen to talking points less.
long time educator
October 6th, 2012
8:22 am
@Rick L,
You are arguing against democracy. If you cannot win your point by persuading your friends and neighbors the value of your point of view, you want to pass a constitutional ammendment to bypass them and get your way. This is similar to Obama and the Dream Act. He couldn’t convince congress of the value of his ideas, so he bypassed them with regulations. This is an erosion of democratic/republican government. The trouble with it is: it seems fine when the bypass is something you want, but what will you say when the other side uses the same tactics to get what they want? This is a slippery slope.
By the way, option D for you is private school, which sounds like it would be a good fit for you. It is a perfectly viable option for many families.
DeKalb Inside Out
October 6th, 2012
10:39 am
John,
Where did Adam Smith ever say:
You cannot apply supply and demand concepts to private/public transaction ie charter school with private management company. This was the cornerstone arguements made by Adam Smith.
Adam Smith? Are you talking about some guy down the street or the free-market capitalist? Adam Smith conceived “the invisible hand of the market” and that’s EXACTLY what I’m talking about. If you don’t allow the state to create charters in Cherokee then there is NO market … a.k.a … a command economy.
The Invisible Hand is The Market
Competition between buyers and sellers that channels the profit motive of individuals on both sides of the transaction such that improved products are produced and at lower costs
Profit – Each student represents $5K – $20K in potential state funds.
Buyer – Cherokee students
Seller – Cherokee School System and public charter schools
Product – Education
You have been very critical of my knowledge of economics saying, among other things, “you sound foolish to anyone who ever took a basic college economics class”.
Supply & Demand is to Economics what 2+2 is to Engineering.
FYI – Economics is the study of the allocation of limited resources given unlimited wants. It is essentially a constrained optimization problem.
I’m repeating talking points ?? I challenge you to show me the talking points I’m repeating. Nobody talks about command and market economies like I do … except Nancy Jester who has a PhD in economics from Emory.
I have highlighted the economic terms for your reference. Here endeth your first real lesson in economics.
John Konop
October 6th, 2012
11:58 am
I am sure Dr. Jester understands the below concept. I did not know I had to connect the dots for you. If you follow the links it will take you to Wealth of Nations and you can read it for yourself.
……..In The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith warned, “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.” The shenanigans of business leaders over the last year, which led to a serious loss of faith in markets and a call for more government intervention, sadly proves Smith’s point. Unfortunately, the problem runs deeper than Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Merrill Lynch, AIG or whatever company has grabbed the headlines of the day.
Smith, who published >his landmark work in 1776, warned of corporate collusion, but we’re experiencing something much more insidious — not just businesses, but business and government and a host of others all meeting, and colluding, at the posh Swiss resort town of Davos. It is Adam Smith’s nightmare……
http://www.acton.org/pub/commentary/2009/03/25/davos-capitalism-adam-smiths-nightmare