Why don’t we follow lead of countries well in front of us?
I have heard researcher Marc Tucker speak on several panels on international education and always found him compelling. He is president of the National Center on Education and the Economy and author of “Surpassing Shanghai: An Agenda for American Education Built on the World’s Leading System.”
In this blog, he makes a point that seems lost in the current push for expanded school choice: “A growing number of countries are surpassing the United States in student performance and are spending less per student than the United States. Not one has used choice and market incentives to do it…Wherever these theories have been turned into policy in the field of education, they have not produced the advertised results. They have neither raised student performance nor lowered costs at the scale of a state, province or nation. The record actually shows that they can even make things worse.”
We keep fretting about all the countries outpacing us academically without acknowledging that they’re doing so by focusing intensely on teacher quality. Why don’t we follow their successful game plans rather than scurry down the single reform road of vouchers and charters that thus far — according to the creditable research — isn’t leading to success? The state Legislature has just about made charters its only reform strategy and its only new investment.
While Georgia ought to welcome innovation and fresh approaches in all schools, it shouldn’t ignore the proven role of improved teacher education and quality.
If doctors in China or Finland had a treatment that was improving cancer cure rates, we would go over, study it and bring it back here. In education, we often observe the successful methods being employed elsewhere and then come back and cleave to politically driven models that research suggests won’t make much difference.
And Tucker’s piece explains why. This is a short excerpt of a long Ed Week blog. Please read his full piece before commenting:
By Marc Tucker
We know that the way to drive quality up and price down is to create a market and let competition in that market do its magic.
So it seems obvious that, if we want to improve student performance and drive down the skyrocketing costs of education, we need to create effective markets in education and lubricate those markets with choice.
But do we really know all that? What I have just stated is the theory behind some of the most popular education reform strategies in the United States today.
First, we need to look under the rug of the theory. The theory says that, given choices, consumers will seek to maximize the value they are looking for in the product or service the industry offers. The whole theory underlying the voucher and charter movements requires that assumption. But the evidence leads elsewhere. Parents are first and foremost looking for schools they regard as safe. Safety trumps everything else. Next, everything being equal, they are looking for schools that are close to the student’s home. Beyond that, different things matter to different people. Many, at the secondary level, are looking for schools with the strongest possible competitive sports programs. The quality of the academic program at the school often comes way down the list in the United States. You can advocate increased choice because you value choice in a free society, but you cannot advocate choice because it will improve student performance. It won’t, either in theory or in practice.
What really calls into question the idea that parents first and foremost seek schools for their children that maximize their academic achievement is what happens when the authorities try to close schools with abysmal student performance.
Communities across the country rise up in anger when an administration proposes to shut down its poor-performing schools and those who are angriest are the parents of the students currently in those schools. According to the theory, that cannot happen, but it does, all the time.
That is because most parents, apart from the factors I mentioned above, look for teachers who seem to care about their kids, places where their children are comfortable and where people know them. They want a school with a friendly staff and a principal who will solve the problems that parents bring to the principal’s office. Apparently, when they have all this in a school that is close to home and seems safe, they will take that any day over another school that might have higher test scores, but is an unknown on these other points. Education reformers may want parents to make choices on the basis of student test scores, but they don’t. And that blows a giant hole in the theory.
But there is another, deeper reason that the market theory is problematic. Consider why one school produces students with higher test scores than another. A famous 1965 U.S. Government report authored by a team headed by University of Chicago sociologist James Coleman found that the one of the most important factors explaining student performance was the socio-economic background of the other students in the school. Parents, of course, know this, so when they can, they move to the school districts serving the wealthiest and best-educated parents they can afford to be associated with. School choice is actually severely restricted in the United States even where it appears to be available. Poor kids cannot choose to get their schooling in rich kids’ school districts. They can’t even choose to get their schooling in districts that are only slightly richer than their own. What kind of choice is that, when we know that the parent’s education background makes such a big difference in education outcomes?
This point about the influence of the customers on the quality of the service in the education arena is important for another reason. Think, for a moment about another industry with which we are all familiar: the grocery business. Go out to the wealthy suburbs and you will find a wide variety of grocery stores, everything from Costco to Whole Foods, Safeway to the local convenience store. But go to the inner city and it may be impossible to find any grocery store at all. Why? Because the big chains can’t make money there. But, you say, that isn’t true in education. Why? Because state and federal categorical programs provide extra money for the poor and minorities, per pupil expenditures are sometimes higher in many big city school systems than in some of the nearby suburbs. But so are the costs. Our inner city systems have high concentrations of handicapped students, homeless students, and students who live in homes where English is not spoken. Even though there is money there, the costs are so high as to make it very difficult to offer a high quality service and still break even.
Ah, you say, but what about the best known of the charter management companies? Don’t they show that I am wrong, that competent providers will seek out the communities that most need competent providers? Actually, I don’t think so. How many of the people who are likely to read this blog are likely to enroll their own children in the Green Dot schools? Very, very few, I would guess. They are good enough for other people’s children but not your own, I will wager.
In the end, the choice system and its market incentives will not improve average student performance, but it will, over time, work to make good schools better and bad schools worse. Is that what we want?
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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135 comments Add your comment
Georgia and education not compatible
September 29th, 2012
10:26 am
The United States is a melting pot of different cultures. While we seem enamored by the success of other countries please understand that most of these other cultures have homogenous societies. There is (most often) a mother and father in the home as well as support from grandparents. There is respect for teachers which garners teacher support. I could go one with these…
However, I have two questions: How often can you really believe anything from China? What are the test scores for special needs children in BOTH countries? Once again, I’ll wait on these answers.
But
Georgia Coach
September 29th, 2012
10:36 am
What many lose sight of is the fact that we educators should focus only on what occurs between 8 and 3 PM every day. It is illogical to focus on the role (or lack there of) of parents. All students can learn at a level higher than they presently do, and all teachers can teach at a level higher than they presently do. If you don’t believe that then find a new career.
living in an outdated ed system
September 29th, 2012
10:37 am
Well said, BC! We need more voices like yours here!
living in an outdated ed system
September 29th, 2012
10:39 am
To everyone on this blog, read “American Revolution 2.0″ by GSV Advisors. It’s FREE, and with good data on the crisis in public education.
living in an outdated ed system
September 29th, 2012
10:41 am
I hope that @Maureen will write a bi-partisan review on a book that sounds fantastic: “The One World Schoolhouse: Education Reimagined” by Salman Khan
Beverly Fraud
September 29th, 2012
10:47 am
“What many lose sight of is the fact that we educators should focus only on what occurs between 8 and 3 PM every day. ”
It’s hard to focus when you are being PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED from 8 to 3 is it not?
Pride and Joy
September 29th, 2012
10:51 am
Maureen says about other countries “We keep fretting about all the countries outpacing us academically without acknowledging that they’re doing so by focusing intensely on teacher quality.” and also says other countries don’t use charters or vouchers, instead, they succeed by focusing on teacher quality.
What maureen doesn’t acknowledge is that parents won’t allow and shouldn’t allow their kids to be taught by teachers that aren’t good enough. I am not going to wait for the US government to get its act together and focus on teacher quality. WHEN ALL the teachers ARE QUALITY teachers, then there will be no need for charters and vouchers but while MANY teachers cannot write nor speak common standard English, yet they have an education degree, parents like me will demand alternatives to sending our children to overpriced, failing public schools.
WHEN the US government has ALL QUALITY teachers in public schools and when ALL the public schools are succeeding THEN we can discuss gettiing rid of charter schools.
BUT you cannot put the cart before the horse. We parents won’t sacrifice the most important people on earth — our children — and wait around for the school system to get its act together. Public schools have to be QUALITY schools BEFORE we get rid of choice.
Pride and Joy
September 29th, 2012
10:55 am
Beverly Fraud writes “It’s hard to focus when you are being PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED from 8 to 3 is it not?”
If you are physcially assaulted, Bev, call the police. Save your emergency room records and take pictures of all your injuries and sue the school.
I find it hard to believe that any intelligent American would stay at a job and be physically assaulted on the level that Beverly complains about.
If you’re in such danger, Bev, why don’t you leave the school system you are in and either transfer to another school, move, get another job and so on.
Higher standard
September 29th, 2012
10:57 am
1. Public school teachers in the state of Ga do not have unions. What you hear of in Chicago is not probable here.
2. Public school teachers in the state are well paid in comparison to other states in the south, but this is of course a comparison that is not easily made with such a wide distinction of systems in our state. Many of our suburban Atlanta systems seem to pay well but are in higher cost of living areas.
3. The language of the new charter school amendment is deceiving. You want the public to decide? I don’t think we can genuinely answer “yes” to this statement when our public officials are tipping the scale in their favor.
4. I have worked in 3 different school systems in north Georgia. They all have strengths and weaknesses and have seen great students at all 3, but the schools have been most successful when allowed to locally push for what is best for the students in that area. The local charter amendment is as hypocritical an attempt of “conservatives” to have state control over local issues.
5. Politicians are not educated on education. Businesses produce and manufacture a product. Schools produce people. The competitive business model is tomfoolery and an attempt to create choice in a democracy. We already have choice.
6. There are bad teachers in schools. Bad administrators are worse. Bad politicians are the worst.
7. Want better schools? Pay more. Simple. Pay more and you will keep the best and you will attract more. You have to pay people. My wife and I teach, but we are generational educators. I grew up in a home of educators. We didn’t have much when we were younger but we all have graduate degrees now. Proof of parenting and the emphasis of education.
8. I don’t want to be like China. We can steal the best ideas from them, but we ought to hesitate before desiring to be like a communist nation with a completely different education model.
9. “Public education was created to create the public not to serve it.” When our communities want a lower standard we must keep a higher standard regardless of what price we might pay politically.
Georgia Coach
September 29th, 2012
11:06 am
Beverly, hyperbole will not advance any argument you pretend to make. I doubt you are assaulted every day.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
September 29th, 2012
11:19 am
@Georgia Coach “….and all teachers can teach at a level higher than they presently do. ”
I put in three 12 hour days last week. I am afraid you are not going to get much more out of me than that. Not without totally burning me out.
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
September 29th, 2012
11:20 am
Oh…and I should note, than was 12 hours at work. I am not counting the work I took home.
Georgia Coach
September 29th, 2012
11:31 am
@ I love teaching are you saying that you do not have the ability to become better? I am not referring to hours put in, but to improving your instructional practices.
Cliff Higgins
September 29th, 2012
12:15 pm
It’s not about improvement. It is the idea that teachers need a financial incentive to do a better job. A teacher that says “I’ll teach better if you pay me more” needs to find a different job. Administrators requiring more and more for less pay is also a problem
Beverly Fraud
September 29th, 2012
12:32 pm
Coach, so how many days IS acceptable for a teacher to be physically assaulted without consequence to the child?
Once a week? Once every two weeks? Once a month?
And to follow up on I love teaching…if we put even a TENTH of the time into giving teachers the AUTHORITY to hold students accountable as we do in trying to “fix the teacher” I dare say those results would lead to something. What has “fixing the teacher” without fixing the system gotten us?
I love teaching. I hate what it is becoming...
September 29th, 2012
12:42 pm
@Coach… “are you saying that you do not have the ability to become better?”
Sorry, I was not clear. I strive to improve everyday…I try new approaches and innovations when I can, but I am at the point where I really cannot “give” more of myself. If I did not have so much other stuff to keep up with, I could devote more time to “improving” my teaching – though I know a heck of a lot about HOW to teach well. Too bad I constantly have to struggle to find time to implement those better practices due to other obligations that keep being heaped upon me and my co-teachers.
You could pay me twice what I am making, but I doubt it would change my teaching practices. It is not a matter of money. I am already running myself ragged just to keep up… or perhaps, just to keep from falling too far behind. I would lay out a long list of all the “requirements” hitting us this year, but then I would be accused of whining. Instead, I will just state that is hard to “improve” or to implement “improvements” when you are so exhausted you cannot see straight. A overly stressed, burned out teaching force is not particularly effective, no matter how skilled they may be. That is true of ANY job or career.
.
living in an outdated ed system
September 29th, 2012
12:42 pm
@Maureen, please help me understand why you will not release my comments timely. I do not comment much on this blog anymore, and my recent comments are not inappropriate in any way. We’re entitled to a rationale herein.
Georgia Coach
September 29th, 2012
1:20 pm
@ I love teaching your point is well made and understood.
Beverly Fraud
September 29th, 2012
1:43 pm
Again, if we spent even a tenth of the time we spend holding teachers “accountable” on EMPOWERING teachers to hold students accountable, the gains would be ten times what we are seeing now.
But when a child can say “F-ck you b–tch! I’m not doing sh-t!” physically assault a teacher, and then the teacher gets blamed while the child gets a FIFTY…
And if people don’t think this and similar happens, and that these are merely “rare” or “isolated’ events…they are CLUELESS
Beverly Fraud
September 29th, 2012
1:44 pm
But you can bet they don’t happen in Finland or China without some consequences….
Not rocket science folks
Beverly Fraud
September 29th, 2012
1:47 pm
@Georgia Coach “….and all teachers can teach at a level higher than they presently do. ”
The PERTINENT point is, are we willing to empower teachers to hold STUDENTS accountable for learning at a higher level than they presently do?
But when university professors report many of their students are SEMI-literate…
Lee
September 29th, 2012
2:19 pm
Those of us old enough to remember the Cold War may also recall that the Communists were seeking to destroy the US from within. That is why some of the biggest supporters of the civil rights movement were communists. Yes, even the puppetmasters behind MLK were communists – which is one of the reasons MLK got on the FBIs radar (what is in those sealed FBI files anyway?)
Once you understand that, you can understand why the politically correct demand equal outcomes for black students, even though they lag behind white students on every IQ test devised as well as every academic/aptitude measure such as SAT, ACT, graduation test, etc, etc, etc.
IQ begets culture. Simply put, there just aren’t any Mensa members living in Section 8 housing, robbing liquor stores, and filling up our prisons. Guess who is disproportionally represented there…
Back in the 50’s, when the US was a 90% white nation, we led the world. Back then, teachers didn’t have mail order Phd’s and in many cases, didn’t have college degrees.
Bottom line, you can’t replace a Western Civilization culture with a third world population and expect to maintain a high standard of living. Tell you what, take a sample of schools with 90%+ white population and compare to Finland. I would wager the results would be very close. Now, take a sample of schools with 90%+ black/hispanic population and do the same comparison.
When we compare the US to other nations, it is obvious who is dragging us down – it’s just that the politically correct cannot admit it.
John Conlin
September 29th, 2012
2:37 pm
When many of the solutions require a remaking of present reality… one has to guess their chance of success is rather low. How about doing something to help TODAY?
I’m a management consultant and look at the situation from a unique perspective. Analyzing the K-12 public education system one finds we spend a ton of money on education… second highest per pupil in the entire world… on average $0.27 of every dollar a state spends goes to education. So it fundamentally isn’t funding.
Second, the country is filled with hard working, dedicated, loving teachers (and administrators and para-pros and volunteers)… so it isn’t fundamentally a personnel problem. I have never worked with a company where the root cause of their problems was a bunch of lousy employees. Instead what I find is hard working, dedicated folks who are struggling under a system which simply doesn’t work.
That is where the K-12 public education system is. And there is a solution which is starring us in the face. It is a solution which has transformed every area it has ever touched. Every single one… billions of times. And that is the magic of competition. Although the author states this hasn’t worked out well in the past… I’d challenge that by noting we have yet to have true competition.
Freeing the educational slaves of this country is the solution. It is the course which will provide the quickest and surest means to improve K-12 performance. That’s what I’m trying to do at End the Education Plantation, Inc… http://www.EndtheEducationPlantation.org
The solution is freedom… and then let a million flowers bloom. Let’s unleash the wisdom of literally millions of educators, parents… everyone. It has never failed, we simply have to take the first step.
John Conlin
Founder
End the Education Plantation, Inc.
Truth in Moderation
September 29th, 2012
2:39 pm
“On Sept. 25, 1998, Rep. Bob Schaffer placed in the Congressional Record an 18-page letter that has become famous as Marc Tucker’s “Dear Hillary” letter. It lays out the master plan of the Clinton Administration to take over the entire U.S. educational system so that it can serve national economic planning of the workforce.”
11 November 1992
Hillary Clinton
The Governor’s Mansion
1800 Canter Street
Little Rock, AR 72206
Dear Hillary:
I still cannot believe you won. But utter delight that you did pervades all the circles in which I move. I met last Wednesday in David Rockefeller’s office with him, John Sculley, Dave Barram and David Haselkorn. It was a great celebration. Both John and David R. were more expansive than I have ever seen them — literally radiating happiness. My own view and theirs is that this country has seized its last chance. I am fond of quoting Winston Churchill to the effect that “America always does the right thing — after it has exhausted all the alternatives.” This election, more than anything else in my experience, proves his point.
The subject we were discussing was what you and Bill should do now about education, training and labor market policy. Following that meeting, I chaired another in Washington on the same topic. Those present at the second meeting included Tim Barnicle, Dave Barram, Mike Cohen, David Hornbeck, Hilary Pennington, Andy Plattner, Lauren Resnick, Betsy Brown Ruzzi, Bob Schwartz, Mike Smith and Bill Spring. Shirley Malcom, Ray Marshall and Susan McGuire were also invited. Though these three were not able to be present at last week’s meeting, they have all contributed by telephone to the ideas that follow. Ira Magaziner was also invited to this meeting.
Our purpose in these meetings was to propose concrete actions that the Clinton administration could take — between now and the inauguration, in the first 100 days and beyond. The result, from where I sit, was really exciting. We took a very large leap forward in terms of how to advance the agenda on which you and we have all been working — a practical plan for putting all the major components of the system in place within four years, by the time Bill has to run again.
I take personal responsibility for what follows. Though I believe everyone involved in the planning effort is in broad agreement, they may not all agree on the details. You should also be aware that, although the plan comes from a group closely associated with the National Center on Education and the Economy, there was no practical way to poll our whole Board on this plan in the time available. It represents, then, not a proposal from our Center, but the best thinking of the group I have named.
We think the great opportunity you have is to remold the entire American system for human resources development, almost all of the current components of which were put in place before World War II. The danger is that each of the ideas that Bill advanced in the campaign in the area of education and training could be translated individually in the ordinary course of governing into a legislative proposal and enacted as a program. This is the plan of least resistance. But it will lead to these programs being grafted onto the present system, not to a new system, and the opportunity will have been lost. If this sense of time and place is correct, it is essential that the administration’s efforts be guided by a consistent vision of what it wants to accomplish in the field of human resource development, with respect both to choice of key officials and the program.
What follows comes in three places:
First, a vision of the kind of national — not federal — human resources development system the nation could have. This is interwoven with a new approach to governing that should inform that vision. What is essential is that we create a seamless web of opportunities, to develop one’s skills that literally extends from cradle to grave and is the same system for everyone — young and old, poor and rich, worker and full-time student. It needs to be a system driven by client needs (not agency regulations or the needs of the organization providing the services), guided by clear standards that define the stages of the system for the people who progress through it, and regulated on the basis of outcomes that providers produce for their clients, not inputs into the system.
Second, a proposed legislative agenda you can use to implement this vision. We propose four high priority packages that will enable you to move quickly on the campaign promises:
[Page: E1820]
The first would use your proposal for an apprenticeship system as the keystone of a strategy for putting a whole new postsecondary training system in place. That system would incorporate your proposal for reforming postsecondary education finance. It contains what we think is a powerful idea for rolling out and scaling up the whole new human resources system nationwide over the next four years, using the (renamed) apprenticeship ideas as the entering wedge.
The second would combine initiatives on dislocated workers, a rebuilt employment service and a new system of labor market boards to offer the Clinton administration’s employment security program, built on the best practices anywhere in the world. This is the backbone of a system for assuring adult workers in our society that they need never again watch with dismay as their jobs disappear and their chances of ever getting a good job again go with them.
The third would concentrate on the overwhelming problems of our inner cities, combining elements of the first and second packages into a special program to greatly raise the work-related skills of the people trapped in the core of our great cities.
The fourth would enable you to take advantage of legislation on which Congress has already been working to advance the elementary and secondary reform agenda.
The other major proposal we offer has to do with government organization for the human resources agenda. While we share your reservations about the hazards involved in bringing reorganization proposals to the Congress, we believe that the one we have come up with minimizes those drawbacks while creating an opportunity for the new administration to move like lightning to implement its human resources development proposals. We hope you can consider the merits of this idea quickly, because, if you decide to go with it or something like it, it will greatly affect the nature of the offers you make to prospective cabinet members.
The Vision
We take the proposals Bill put before the country in the campaign to be utterly consistent with the ideas advanced in America’s Choice, the school restructuring agenda first stated in A Nation Prepared, and later incorporated in the work of the National Alliance for Restructuring Education, and the elaboration of this view that Ray and I tried to capture in our book, Thinking for a Living. Taken together, we think these ideas constitute a consistent vision for a new human resources development system for the United States. I have tried to capture the essence of that vision below.
An Economic Strategy Based on Skill Development
The economy’s strength is derived from a whole population as skilled as any in the world, working in workplaces organized to take maximum advantage of the skills those people have to offer.
A seamless system of unending skill development that begins in the home with the very young and continues through school, postsecondary education and the workplace.
The Schools
Clear national standards of performance in general education (the knowledge and skills that everyone is expected to hold in common) are set to the level of the best achieving nations in the world for students of 16, and public schools are expected to bring all but the most severely handicapped up to that standard. Students get a certificate when they meet this standard, allowing them to go on to the next stage of their education. Though the standards are set to international benchmarks, they are distinctly American, reflecting our needs and values.
We have a national system of education in which curriculum, pedagogy, examinations, and teacher education and licensure systems are all linked to the national standards, but which provides for substantial variance among states, districts, and schools on these matters. This new system of linked standards, curriculum, and pedagogy will abandon the American tracking system, combining high academic standards with the ability to apply what one knows to real world problems and qualifying all students for a lifetime of learning in the postsecondary system and at work.
We have a system that rewards students who meet the national standards with further education and good jobs, providing them a strong incentive to work hard in school.
Our public school systems are reorganized to free up school professionals to make the key decisions about how to use all the available resources to bring students up to the standards. Most of the federal, state, district and union rules and regulations that now restrict school professionals’ ability to make these decisions are swept away, though strong measures are in place to make sure that vulnerable populations get the help they need. School professionals are paid at a level comparable to that of other professionals, but they are expected to put in a full year, to spend whatever time it takes to do the job and to be fully accountable for the results of their work. The federal, state and local governments provide the time, staff development resources, technology and other support needed for them to do the job. Nothing less than a wholly restructured school system can possibly bring all of our students up to the standards only a few have been expected to meet up to now.
There is a real — aggressive — program of public choice in our schools, rather than the flaccid version that is widespread now.
All students are guaranteed that they will have a fair shot at reaching the standards: that is, that whether they make it or not depends on the effort they are willing to make, and nothing else. School delivery standards are in place to make sure this happens. These standards have the same status in the system as the new student performance standards, assuring that the quality of instruction is high everywhere, but they are fashioned so as not to constitute a new bureaucratic nightmare.”
Read the rest:
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/marc_tucker/
cris
September 29th, 2012
2:53 pm
sorry to feed the troll, but…..wow @Lee – we were a 90% white nation in the fifties? Really? You’re so bigoted it would be laughable if it wasn’t so tragic. Skin color = IQ, huh? So why even have an IQ test if that’s so? Sorry to bust your bubble, but smart people come in every race, color, religion and nationality…as do ignorant ones, as you just proved when you started typing…
long time educator
September 29th, 2012
2:54 pm
Not all public schools are failing; my district schools are doing a great job and parents are happy and moving in as fast as they can. There are many similar districts throughout Georgia. What we share is a higher socio-economic demographic and strong community values. What the failing schools share is a lower, often urban, socio-economic demographic. I do not think poverty alone is determinative; poor families who value education have successful students. It is the combination of poverty and poor values that creates a failing school. And I agree with catlady; you could swap the faculties of the best school and the worst and the outcome would not be significant. I also agree that the same teacher often teaches the valedictorian and the student who fails to graduate. What is the determining factor? It is the student and what he brings (aptitude, work ethic, and family values) that detemines the difference between success and failure. This is so obvious; why do we keep looking for other answers? Improving teacher quality will not touch these problems.
catlady
September 29th, 2012
3:22 pm
Lee “Once you understand that, you can understand why the politically correct demand equal outcomes for black students, even though they lag behind white students on every IQ test devised” (BY WHITE FOLKS)
I suspect if an “IQ” test was devised by a gang member, I would “lag behind” the scores of gang members. Or, if an “intelligence” test was devised by someone from the jungle, I would not post such good scores, either. The wild animals would get me for sure!
Lee, there ARE people with lower ability to learn than others, but NO ONE has the monopoly on it.
I don’t usually respond to you, but you left the door SO wide open!
Clarification: Do I think IQ tests are bogus? No, I think they can generally measure the possibility of success on the things we value as white, middle class Americans. Of course, motivation goes a long way as well.
Tony
September 29th, 2012
4:24 pm
The first response to today’s topic summarizes the vast ignorance of too many people when it comes to talk about improving our schools. The truth is, there is an abundance of things to be learned from other countries regarding education, even from China.
I do not put China’s model up as an example, though. The one city, Shanghai, has good test scores, but this is an isolated result for the country. As a whole, the nation did not participate in PISA and therefore it makes no sense to generalize Shanghai’s results as if they were from the entire nation. China has begun to invest heavily in education for all, but is far from reaching that goal.
Most notable about learning from other countries is exactly what is pointed out in the essay by Tucker. Our politicians are pushing policies that have absolutely no foundation in research and are completely ineffective at improving student outcomes. They are blind to any evidence that is contrary to their point of view. This is why the politicians in Georgia are continuing to ram the charter school amendment down our throats.
If we truly paid attention to evidence that shows true growth in student outcomes, we would see completely different proposals from our politicians. We would see more support for teachers and less vitriolic rhetoric. We would see politicians willing to sit down with teachers to get to the root causes of poor achievement. We would see politicians admit that poverty has a profound impact upon students’ success. We would see better standards for admission to teacher education programs. We would see SUPPORT for teachers.
CharterStarter, Too
September 29th, 2012
4:36 pm
Mr. Tucker’s support of lower funding per pupil should be just as popular with districts as the charter movement. Wonder if he knows that charters operate on less and have greater control over the quality of their teachers?
Likely not.
Truth in Moderation
September 29th, 2012
5:16 pm
OOPS!
“The hidden hand that guides” is in the wrong place. Should read:
Marc Tucker’s letter:
“Dear Hillary:
I still cannot believe you won. But utter delight that you did pervades all the circles in which I move. I met last Wednesday in David Rockefeller’s office with him, John Sculley, Dave Barram and David Haselkorn. It was a great celebration. Both John and David R. (Rockefeller)
were more expansive than I have ever seen them — literally radiating happiness….The subject we were discussing was what you and Bill should do now about education, training and labor market policy…..Our purpose in these meetings was to propose concrete actions that the Clinton administration could take — between now and the inauguration, in the first 100 days and beyond. The result, from where I sit, was really exciting. We took a very large leap forward in terms of how to advance the agenda on which you and we have all been working — a practical plan for putting all the major components of the system in place within four years, by the time Bill has to run again…… It represents, then, not a proposal from our Center, but the best thinking of the group I have named…We think the great opportunity you have is to remold the entire American system for human resources development, almost all of the current components of which were put in place before World War II. …”
The hidden hand that guides education:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upH_Iei7_A4
Especially note 3:00
Listen to full interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2xcwFpSW0k
Further research:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reece_Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Endowment_for_International_Peace
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Foundation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockefeller_Foundation
bootney farnsworth
September 29th, 2012
6:13 pm
I hate this stupid concept:
we are not Finland, China, Outer Mongolia, ect. we are the US, and our society is distinctly and uniquely different than anywhere else on earth. for good and ill.
US society is not homogenous, stratified, caste, selective on who gets an education and all the other tidbits these “wonder societies” are.
we’re extremely diverse in every possible sense of the word. we have the second largest populated land mass on earth, stretching over almost 10 time zones. more, if you count US territories. and most of all, this diverse group of people have usually large amount of influence on education policy, which is not uniform regionally, much less nationally.
except for Eurorail, every major social experiment European society has taken in the latt 40 years has cratered. the Asian miracles are divent by a harshly rigid social structure with opressive gov’t interference.
Africa and latin America are not known as overall educational powerhouses.
US problems require US solutions.
bootney farnsworth
September 29th, 2012
6:15 pm
in a lot of non european countries, harsh punishments (ie spanking, and worse) are not unusual. since
“the world” does that, can we stop whining about it here?
Maureen Downey
September 29th, 2012
6:56 pm
@Living, Here is the rationale. I am off today. I just got back from hiking with my kids. I am taking the time to stop at a place with Internet to check the blog and release comments either snagged by the filter or the moderation queue.
That is the entire explanation why your comments were not released in a “timely” fashion.
Maureen
Pride and Joy
September 29th, 2012
7:59 pm
John Ellison — I doubt the problem is with unions. In the South we have no unions and we have the worst teachers.
Pride and Joy
September 29th, 2012
8:13 pm
Beverly Fraud, I am calling you a fraud — you — and not your monniker. I agree with Georgia Coach about your hyperbole.
If you are assaulted daily from 8 to 3 in the manner you describe — then WHY are you still there?
There are only two reasons someone would stay at a job as dangerous as the one you say you are in.
The first reason — they’re an idiot.
The second reason — they have no real education and no real market value. In other words, their skills are so poor and valueless no one else would hire them.
Of course, there is a third reason — they are grossly exaggerating the “abuse” and “physical assault” from 8 to 3.
Bev, if your job is that horrible — call the police when you are assaulted. Sue the school for all your injuries or….
Shut your pie hole and quit complaining.
When a person has a REAL education and is genuinely INTELLIGENT, they will get out of a job where they are “continually assaulted daily from 8 to 3.”
bootney farnsworth
September 29th, 2012
9:08 pm
irony alert:
P&J/GM/host of others calling anyone a fraud
DrKEdD
September 29th, 2012
9:14 pm
I want you to read a very important research paper that was done on one of the countries leading the pack in the “testing” game. China is so far ahead of us in testing. But again, like the SAT reports, it is propaganda. And you all just get sucked in! In USA we teach everyone from geniuses to special education students. In many countries, China, they do not! Your child, if they had a disability or were unable to read and write effectively by a certain age, would be left behind and would pretty much be sentenced to a life of hard labor in the agricultural industries. The only chance is to be independently wealthy to pay for the special private schools. We are comparing test scores of our general population to selected populations in the other countries.
So our answer is charter schools because public schools are failing.
Here is a question for you…the State determines that they will set up a charter school in your school district. The tests scores are astronomical! AWESOME! How does YOUR academically struggling child get in? Who decides who can attend that school and who has to attend the non-charter public school? Not every student in the district can go to the charter school. There isn’t enough room. What the legislation is doing is creating publicly funded private schools. Your child will need to meet an entrance requirement. Is your special ed kid going to get in? HA! Good luck! So we develop a charter school for just kids with ADD? Well that would be nice, but the same legislators that scream that public schools are failing told educators that they cannot exclude special education kids. Be very weiry of this charter school amendment. It will create elitist schools and your regular and struggling kids will be left behind…look at China!
http://castle.eiu.edu/edjournal/Spring_2011/Special_education_China.pdf
bootney farnsworth
September 29th, 2012
9:23 pm
what the willfully ignorant refuse to understand – they’ve been told, they just refuse to hear it – is the extremely intense pressure admin puts on us to keep our mouths shut when we are assualted.
not if, when. teach in certain school districts, and it will occur sooner or later.
admin will strongly imply you did something to provoke the issue, and treat you like an abused spouse who had it coming. then they will make it abundantly clear reporting this issue will go on your record – in a negative fashion. if you continue to push, they’ll warn you of impending disipline action – against you.
why? simple. PR and career building.
-every likely, Jr has done this before.
-every report makes it look like the prinicpal can’t control the school
-police coming to the school make parents angry
-angry parents complain upward
-red meat freaks like Fran & co. take this and run with it-always out of context
-you yourself are accused of being unable to control your classroom
-and God forbid Jr. plays football.
bootney farnsworth
September 29th, 2012
9:24 pm
irony alert #2:
P&J telling someone to shut their pie hole.
physician, heal thyself.
Jerry Eads
September 29th, 2012
9:25 pm
The answer to why we don’t follow the lead of countries that smack us is really, really, really simple. Helping current teachers get better and producing better new teachers costs money. It’s hard work, takes a lot of resources, and it takes time.(Yes, there are those who do absolutely magic work – like those who help build the recently reported-on AP. But even they are woefully understaffed and an exception rather than a rule.)
Charters, on the other hand, simply take funding from already financially devastated regular public schools – even though we know by now with absolute certainty that charters do no better with the kids they take from the publics. But it SOUNDS good to the gullible, and it costs those who want to continue to devastate public education – whose actual goal seems to be a two-class society of the haves and the have-nots- not one red cent.
DrKEdD
September 29th, 2012
9:47 pm
PROPAGANDA! Read this article.
http://castle.eiu.edu/edjournal/Spring_2011/Special_education_China.pdf
Its just like the SAT reports. In the USA we test everyone! Geniuses to special education, ESOL, you name it. All special needs students are included. In many countries that we are “falling behind” they only test elite students. In China, if your child has a disability or cannot read and write proficiently by a certain age, they are pretty much pre-determined to work in a very difficult life in the agricultural industries. The people of China seem to have great compassion for special needs students, but the government does not share this compassion, and is very slow to recognize special populations. So, we are comparing test scores of our general population (NO child left behind) to selective populations in other countries.
Beware of teh Charter School Amendment. The State Legislators that are proposing this have not answered some very important questions. They are slamming this through like universal healthcare. WHO WILL DETERMINE WHICH CHILDREN GET TO ATTEND THESE STATE ORGANIZED CHARTER SCHOOLS? Not every kid in a school district is going to be able to attend this school. Will there be an entrance requirement? If your kid has a disability that prevents them from reading and writing, do you think they will do well on an entrance exam to this school? In reality the charter school amendment is creating elitist schools that will do GREAT! Not because they are charter, but because, like China, they will be attracting the best and the brightest. And your child, if average, will be left behind. Demand your legislators to be transparent before you vote your child into the back row of the education game.
N. GA Teacher
September 29th, 2012
11:09 pm
I have rarely seen a blog with so many accurate comments. If only people like bc and other nonteachers would take the time to sub a few days in Title I schools and interact with teachers, students and administrators, they would become more sympathetic, if not downright agreeable, with teachers. The fact is that our public education system WAS a lot like other developed nations back in the 50s and 60s. The most important part was the family culture, which emphasized personal responsibility, a work ethic, respect for adults, and offered the promise of a life better than that of the parents. Schools were well-funded by taxes, PTAs had terrific involvement, and administrators supported teachers in every way. We also had technical high schools for kids inclined to go into skilled labor jobs. Kids who could not abide by the rules were quickly shown the door, and frivolous lawsuits by irresponsible parents (whose kids were nuts off the same tree) were quickly dismissed by sensible judges. (The rich in Europe and other nations sent their kids to private schools, more out of a sense of maintaining their hierarchical position (as evidenced by modern “critical theory”) just like our wealthy elite did and continue to do, but this minority did not affect mainstream life of the “99%”. However SOMETHING happened in the generation since that one would have thought impossible in the U.S. Somehow personal responsibility was abdicated by many, and it was not socially or legally punished. The parents abdicated involvement in their children’s lives. Children became gradually less respectful, stopped doing homework, and were less industrious (to use a Charles Murray term). Even more amazing than the appearance of a huge new underclass was the failure of authorities, such as judges, politicians, and senior school officials, to continue to uphold standards of behavior, to support teachers, and to fund schools properly. This has NOT happened in most other developed nations. The earlier blogger who commented that disrespect would not be allowed in Shanghai was exactly right; nor would it be allowed in Helsinki, Berlin, Tokyo, or at our private schools. So what makes it OK in our public schools?
One Teacher's Voice
September 29th, 2012
11:21 pm
So teachers are not to blame for all of the problems of education?
Parents matter?
Student motivation matters?
Socio-economic status matters?
Parental educational level matters?
The home environment matters?
Teachers are not the only factor?
Stop the insanity….my teacher world has been turned upside down….
Georgiaa and education not compatible
September 29th, 2012
11:36 pm
@ Lee
So if blacks are dragging education down, in the United States, then what’s Georgia’s excuse? Blacks make up 31% and whites account for 63%. In the United States blacks make up 13% while whites lead with 78% of the population.
So what are you saying again? I’m confused.
Athens Girl
September 30th, 2012
2:56 am
@ N. GA Teacher: Beautifully stated, and I wholeheartedly agree with 99% of what you wrote.
Private schools are not the utopia so many people claim that they are. Quite often, due to the economy, these schools will accept just about anyone who applies. Many times these applicants were real behavioral problems in their public school. And because they then pay tuition, their entitled parents feel they should receive special treatment and be granted exemption from disciplinary procedures. Our family has seen this occur repeatedly at the 3 private schools our children have attended. The lowest common denominator is the cultural dictator even in the private school setting.
Beverly Fraud
September 30th, 2012
4:38 am
“If you are assaulted daily from 8 to 3 in the manner you describe — then WHY are you still there?”
Again, describe for us the EXACT number of times it IS acceptable for a teacher to be physically assaulted; once a week? a month?
“If you are assaulted daily from 8 to 3 in the manner you describe — then WHY are you still there?”
Yet another example of the “blame the teacher” mindset (or if you’re a teacher, Stockholm Syndrome) The question is NOT “Why would someone stay?” the question is “Why do public schools allow this to happen?”
Asking why a teacher would stay shows ZERO concern for students. The teacher can leave true; but what about the students that REMAIN?
Who speaks for them? Clearly in this instance, you do not.
Beverly Fraud
September 30th, 2012
4:44 am
“Helping current teachers get better and producing better new teachers costs money.”
If we removed the 10% of severely and chronically disruptive students from the sanctity of the learning environment wouldn’t 90%, in ONE FELL SWOOP get better teachers?
Wouldn’t knowing that is the dynamic ATTRACT better teachers?
Why can’t we have THAT conversation along with the “fix the teacher” conversation?
long time educator
September 30th, 2012
6:43 am
The teacher is not the determining factor in student success; the student and his family are. It is that simple and that complicated.
long time educator
September 30th, 2012
6:50 am
The quality of the teacher IS a factor when you have students with aptitude, work ethic and values. Then a great teacher can make a huge difference in taking them to the next level. But improving teacher quality will not impact a school where students lack aptitude, work ethic, values and discipline, especially where these students are the majority. In a school like this, teachers do not make much difference. A strong administrator who enforced strict discipline might help change the climate, but it would only help those students who had aptitude, work ethic and values, once the worst offenders were removed.
Pride and Joy
September 30th, 2012
8:45 am
To em, I read and understand your point. We need more vocational and trade tracks instead of one track, the colllege track.
But…there is an important element here in GA and that is the LACK of unions.
Up in PA, they have unions with a steady, reasonable, intelligent trade track. One starts as an apprentice and through work and experience becomes a journeyman, a craftsman, a master craftsman and so on. When one needs work perforned on a car or home one can call the union and know for sure they are getting qualified, experienced, licensed workers with real know-how.
The situation in the South is very different. With no unions we have people advertising in the phone book yellow pages, on the internet and so on. We have no idea how good or how qualified these people are. I hired a “professional” landscaper. What I got was a couple of illegal Mexicans dropped off on my doorstep with NO equipment and who didn’t speak English. The truth was THEY worked for a professional landscaper but they certainly weren’t professional landscapers. They were simply illegal immigrants who couldn’t speak English and had NO formal training. do you think I trusted them to klandscape my yard?
Heck no.
I called the “professional landscaper” and had them pick up their illegal immigrants — but i still haven’t landscaped my yard. Where do I find qualified people that i can trust and hold accountable?
In PA I could call the union to complain about a less than quality job. In GA these so-called professionals are fly by night. They are simply a name ina phone book or a page on a web site — there’s no where to go to actually find them and hold them accountable.
This is what happens when you don’t allow unions in a State.
You get what you vote for.
If you want quality tradesmen and women, allow unions.