Concerns over funding lead state ed board in New Hampshire to impose a moratorium on charter schools

NH, like other New England states spend twice the amount per a pupil as Georgia. Their property tax is twice as much as well. They also rank much higher than Georgia. You get what you pay for!! Some how Deal will find the money. $10 million last year to fund those state authorized charter schools, $4.3 million this year for a well at his friends business. Remember, no money is to come from education if the charter admendment passes. I am not sure how to police that, but I am sure Deal will have a bag full of money somewhere.

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catlady wronte In Georgia, it’s a double whammy–no money for regular schools and yet magically money for charters

Yep…isn’t that amazing?? Our pitiful legislators have cut and cut education spending to balance the budget, but oh, wait, here’s money for Charter Schools? Pathetic.

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Another biased article. These educators found another tool that they might use to wrench some more money from the pockets of the taxpayers. Fire them.

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The sad thing is – in Georgia’s legislature, which is highly ideological, funds may continue to be awarded to increasing numbers of state charter schools (if the constitutional amendment passes) while funding to traditional public schools may continue to be decreased because the ideological agenda of most of Georgia’s Republican politicians, imo, is to gradually transform public “government,” not-for-profit schools into schools that are based on the free market’s profit incentive of the private sector.

Georgia has had a history of using people for profit, i.e. the societal system of slavery, the societal system of Jim Crow, a penal system from 1875 until WWII in which 90% of prisoners were black males incarcerated for minor “found” infractions so that they could be “leased” to private businesses for profit to the state, and the peonage system in which people were held captive for working off debt, similar to being in slavery, until federal law under FDR stopped this immoral practice. (See PBS-TV’s broadcast “Beyond Slavery” (or title similar in name which aired late last evening).

School children must not be used for profit purposes. We must sustain and improve traditional public schools in Georgia, and we must be aware of attempts to dismantle Georgia’s traditional public schools for the profit purposes of profiteers.

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If you have ever lived in New Hampshire you will understand why they did this. Just another reason why I’m glad I don’t live there.

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I love how Republicans are all for the”free market” until they want tax money for their pet projects. I am not an educator, butvI have not seen data showing that students in charter schools perform better than kids in regular public schools. We know, and the Repubs know we know why they are doing this. But they don ‘ t care. Ignorant voters that suck up their swill believe that their kids have a better chance at a good education. Imagine their surprise when we e eventually have a voucher system, which is what their ultimate goal is, and these pathetic people get a voucher that is unusable because it won’t pay the full freight on private school and they are stuck in an even worse public school with even less resources. Fund public schools!

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Maureen’s and the unions’ anti-reform message has hit another “bump in the road” with the Hollywood film WON’T BACK DOWN.

Here’s a film review: http://tinyurl.com/9mzp5d9

Try as the liberal elites might, they won’t be able to stop parents from viewing the movie and transferring its message to the most troubled schools in their own districts—and to the assertion that failing traditional public schools are something we must simply endure.

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The following are the protections I am asking for to support the amendment and or local school boards for the apporval of charter schools:

No board members should be able to be a consultant, owner and or work for vendors, charter management contracts…..Full disclosure if they had any prior affiliation. No board member should be able to be on the board if they revived any form compensation in the last 2 years from any material vendor.

Full disclosure of any office holder and or relatives with any affiliation with vendors providing services for the school.

No board member and or officeholder should have any interest in the property the school uses
Full disclosure of any officeholder relatives employed by the charter school

Board meeting should be listed 30 days in advance on a set day after 7 pm, not at 10 am on random days with short notice….

Any school, with more than 750 students with a private management company should be required to put up bonding to make sure that the school fulfills the school year

Full disclosure on ownership of property the school uses ie detailed list with names of the people with any affiliation to the school and or officeholders

If the property has any ownership affiliation with the private management company it should be put up as security to pay back the government for any free tax payer dollars ie grants and management fees or expenses against the district eats via placing the kids back into public school via failure of the charter school.

Full disclosure of the contract between the private management company and the charter school. Once again a list of any cross affiliations….

Is this really asking too much, for protecting tax payers ?

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Here Here John!
Let’s make this happen for traditional schools too!
Is there any way we can get it in both?

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Dek,

Just so you know I have been very critical of public/private projects outside of just schools via all the loses we have taken as tax payers. We cannot have a system that a private company gets the upside and tax payers take the majority of risk.

I do believe most of what I posted is covered via public schools in my district, especially the conflict of interest issues. In my county it so strict a board member stop student teaching via it looking like a conflict of interest in the process, when they becaome a school board member.

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……….. OK. If we are going to defeat the Charter Amendment, we need to get on the same page.
1. Charter schools are public schools. We don’t need or want them.
2. Georgia Supreme Court ruling last year effectively said the state has no constitutional right to approve school charters. We are therefore back down to county boards of education approving charter schools and that’s where 100% of the authority to do so should reside.
3. Traditional public schools need more money.
OK … What else do we have?……..

For instance in Cherokee County, Charter USA has a private management contract that pays them close to a million dollars a year. Do you understand the conflict of interest issues if board members have had or do have current financial affiliation with them? Do you understand the conflict of interest issues Charter USA owned the property they are renting to the public charter school ? I hope you get my point.

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APS, 11:02 am

First, let me say “thank you” for your kind words regarding my writings, overall.

I used the word “may” instead of the word “will” because the funding variances that I mentioned have not actually occurred, as yet, and I did not want to presume to “play God” with future actualities.

But, I see your point. So, perhaps instead of having used the word “may,” I should have used the word phrase “will probably.”

The below is what I actually had written. Please be aware of my linguistic intent. I thought that In using the following clause (after I had used the word “may”) in my statement, i.e., “because the ideological agenda of most of Georgia’s Republican politicians, imo, is to gradually transform public ‘government,’ not-for-profit schools into schools that are based on the free market’s profit incentive of the private sector” that readers would understand that this funding shift would have a strong likelihood of coming into fruition, in the future:
———————————————————

“The sad thing is – in Georgia’s legislature, which is highly ideological, funds may continue to be awarded to increasing numbers of state charter schools (if the constitutional amendment passes) while funding to traditional public schools may continue to be decreased because the ideological agenda of most of Georgia’s Republican politicians, imo, is to gradually transform public ‘government,’ not-for-profit schools into schools that are based on the free market’s profit incentive of the private sector.”

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@sneak peak into education “if the parents are unhappy with the for-profit charter that takes the traditional school’s place, they can’t do anything about it.”

If this is the case the how did the parents of Wesley break ties with Imagine?
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/split-illustrates-management-disputes-charter-scho/nR2cK/

There isn’t a trigger law in GA so how do you know how it will work????

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I think there should be a LAW that lawmakers cannot legislate anything unless they also provide the funds to pay for it and that when they DO pass and fund laws that those laws are only good as long as the money is there. Once the money runs out, the law should immediately expire. No more unfunded or underfunded laws!

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Yeah, Jan Jones, Edward Lindsey, Chip Rogers and the others in the General Assembly favoring segregation vouchers and private school tax credits for the rich have no common sense and will break the state bank building their utopian education system. And….our kids will still be stupid when compared to other states let alone other countries.

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Maureen, somehow I am not surprised at all that you would go as far as New Hampshire to find a charter related topic that has nothing to do with Georgia – yes, nothing, as their budget issues, educational system, laws, and state politics are vastly different than ours. Would it really be too much to ask to expect you to show some semblance of balance in your blog topics?

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School finance data gives you an indication of how much advanced money is spent per student in your district, and how this amount compares to the state average. In most school and district budgets throughout the country, the lion’s share of the funding goes to instruction and instructional-related services, i.e., teacher and staff salaries.

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@ One Teacher’s Voice – I think you ask a fair question. I could get deeply into details about various differences, but let me hit 1 very “on its face” difference related to this particular article and our own state. New Hampshire’s legislature actually has an appropriation for all charter schools’ funding in their state budget. In Georgia, our charters earn funds following the QBE statute, so the funds follow, to a large extent, the child. If the Commission passes, Like New Hampshire, funding (per HB 797) will be subject to appropriation.

@ Maureen – I do not believe I’m being overly sensitive given the very contentious political environment over the charter amendment and the districts’ erroneous projections of charters having funding impacts as one of their reasons that folks should not support the amendment. It is odd that when I put in by browser “state eduction funding cuts September,” there were 470,000,000 links you could have chosen from for a blog post…it is just amazing that the 1 you selected includes a hotly debated issue in our own state. Coincidence? I think not.

You want to say you are fair in the blog topics you post related to charters. You are not, and in not providing balanced viewpoints, you do a disservice to the voters in this state who should have both sides of the issue to make an informed decision.

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@ Sneak Peak – I agree to some extent that the link provided was not related to any sort of Parent Trigger law as we do not have one in Georgia; however, EL Mom is right that the school voted to part ways with its management organization. This is a board responding to its constituency and exercising its responsibility to the students and the tax payers.

@ Alex – Can you please explain to me how, if charters earn funds based on their students, the legislature will “break the bank?” And honestly sir, can we fall much further than #48 in our country. Don’t we have a moral imperative to do SOMETHING rather than stay status quo? We are one of the most impoverished states, which speaks to our education system. This impacts not only quality of life for Georgia citizens, but the state economy and the social programs that cannot be sustained based on our current output of qualified workers.

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Charter,

I have noticed you never seem to comment on anything that does not involve Charter Schools or the Charter school amendment. Does nothing else that is happening in education in our state hold any interest for you? I would think that if the desire to improve education in Georgia was so important to you, I might see you express an opinion on other topics occasionally. I can’t help but suspect you have a vested interest in Charters and not much else educational.

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CharterStarterToo-Since you are so interested in charters, I have posted this one especially for you. Of course, anyone else who wants to have a laugh and their eyes opened on what happens when the Parent Trigger Law is enforced, click on the link. It is a screenplay written to show what happens in the movie “Won’t Back Down” when the parents/teachers successfully “takeover” the school and the cameras have stopped rolling. It is a must read for anyone interested in the current and backhanded move by our legislature to privatize our public schools.

http://jerseyjazzman.blogspot.com/2012/09/wont-back-down-ii-sequel.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+JerseyJazzman+%28Jersey+Jazzman%29

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Charter Starter….if I thought you had the best interest of ALL children at heart – I would support you 100%. But all eveidence suggests we will pull out the best and essentially segregate our children – whether by race, ethnicity, learning. Those selected – whether lottery or those with enough welath to get to the Charter School – will find a school with much better funding per FTE. In the meantime, those left behind in failing schools will fall even further behind due to be starved for resources you propose to take away. Hey, I am not defending public education as the perfect plan…it sucks. Too much turning brats over to schools, to much concern with athletics, etc. But your solution is worse than the poison. Charter Schools WILL favor the affluent at the expense of other kids. All because certain north Fulton legislators do not like being boxed into a county with people they would never share the time of day. Charter Starter….want to help? Demand reform for ALL kids not just the select lottery chosen few. Do that and I will be impressed.

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@ Lance –

I’ve spent an awful lot of time on here educating those mistaken by providing factual information about the amendment. So how about this time you educate ME. Why don’t you show me where in the statute you can show:

1. Charters will take funds from local districts
2. Charters will segregate
3. Charters wlll earn more money per FTE

Show me.

As for vouchers – I am personally on the more conservative end of the choice spectrum. I support public dollars going where there is accountability for outcomes. Charters are required to meet all academic and fiscal accountability measures that traditional schools meet in exchange or public funds. I also support access by every child for educational options.

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@ John Konop – below are my thoughts on your “controls.” What I want you to know is that this commentary is more related to what happens in practice (i.e., State Board Rule and Guidance) versus the law or the actual amendment. These are easy things to advocate for with the state. If this amendment passes, I highly recommend you attend the state’s Rules meetings and talk with your state board reps. Also, the local districts and the state (and prior Commission) have, as authorizers, gotten more savvy and more rigorous in reviewing charters engaging management companies and are pushing on charter boards to ensure they are entering into an appropriate arrangement.

1. I agree that no board members should have vendors or consultants on their boards. This should be the case for traditional schools, locally approved charters, and state approved charters. It is a conflict of interest in my view.

2. I disagree with full disclosure of familial relationships. The reason I disagree is that I believe this should not be permitted at all – in traditional, local or state approved charters. This, too, is a conflict of interest.

3. I agree that no board member or officer should have an interest in the property – and this should apply to traditional, local, and state approved charters.

4. I disagree with your controls on board meetings, as charters have to follow the Open Meetings provisions anyway.

5. I am not sure I have an opinion on your bonding control with students over 750. I’d have to understand your thinking on that a little more.

6. I agree that full disclosure of property ownership should be public for traditional schools, local and state approved charters.

7. I disagree with using a building as “security” if a charter should fail….for a lot of reasons. First, because failing traditional schools (who keep going and going and going) never give money back to tax payers for the investment of the building and other funds. Districts don’t return funds to tax payers when they have to reinvest funds for remedial education and drop out recovery programs – education that should have occurred (in the majority of cases) the first time around. If a management company owns a building and the charter leases it, it is a cost of running a school, regardless of performance. HOWEVER, i believe that authorizers should monitor contracts carefully to ensure that facility arrangements are in the best interests of the schools and that the schools are protected.

8. I support full disclosure of management contracts – it’s already open record.

You see, we are not that far off on these things.

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@ Sneak a Peak – The Parent Trigger could come to Georgia (if the legislature approved it, which is somewhat debatable) whether or not the Constitutional Amendment passes. One is not dependent on the other. Because I am supporting this amendment and in close contact with my local legislators on the matter, I guess I don’t see it being driven “down” from the gold dome. I’m always side by side by tons of parents and educators at the Capital on this issue.

How, can you possibly NOT support something that is clearly educating kids better? Comparing charters to their districts, the charters outperform. The Governor’s Office of Student Achievement showed that clearly. If charters do their job, the districts will be rethinking their practices. They will start spending more efficiently and pushing more dollars down to the classrooms; they will work on teacher morale and provide greater voices by their educators; they will start pushing down decision making to the school level; they will hold themselves accountable for achievement – without making excuses for poverty and lack of parental involvement (because the 90/90/90 schools don’t.)

As for your response on behalf of Lance…. 1) Are you saying that traditional schools don’t ask parents to contribute? Please. Teacher and parents alike pay out the wazoo to subsidize education – buying wrapping paper rather than going door to door, tissue, pencils, copy paper, and tons of school supplies. Charters depend heavily on fundraising because they are underfunded. Parents help with that, but they aren’t mandated to do it. 2) Every charter doesn’t require parents to drive. We have a lot of charters that provide some for of transportation. And many would provide it if the districts would share the transportation funds or work with the charters on routes – they don’t and won’t. 3) You can’t “mandate” volunteer hours. It’s not enforceable – call the DOE and ask them.

I say that traditional schools are guilty of the same – with parents who are poor and cannot move, they are often stuck in perpetually failing schools without any other option afforded to them They are held hostage and forced to perpetuate the cycle of poverty in communities. Look at our rural south Georgia achievement. Look at our inner city schools. These children deserve another option.

As for your claim that charters get rid of those that don’t “fit,” they can’t do that. They may expel a student, but so do districts – there are kids sitting in alternative schools or who just drop out. Charters uphold their behavior plans and are required to follow due process with discipline. Traditional districts school teachers OFTEN do not get the support they deserve in enforcing appropriate discipline in the classroom and the schools. Unacceptable and disruptive behavior is allowed to continue on and one – they sacrifice the whole for the sake of a few who do not follow the rules. I would find it difficult to believe that teachers and parents in traditional schools wouldn’t agree with me on this. Counseling out is illegal.

If you look at the demographics of charters, they don’t jive with your claims. Charters serve about 50% minority students and they serve about 50% economically disadvantaged students. You’d be hard pressed to prove to me in any quantifiable way that your claim holds true.

P.S. Congratulations on your new baby. Special times I remember well with my own.

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@ John,

Honestly, I have no issue at all with controls and oversight, but my concern is that you base all of your “push” against this amendment on one singular school. I don’t know if these things are problems with Cherokee or not. I’d never seek to claim that every charter in this state operates exactly perfectly, just as there is no district, even the truly excellent ones, that operate exactly perfectly. When you have humans running the show, there will always be operational issues. I can name scores school districts in this state that have rampant nepotism, conflicts of interest, “relationships” with builders, etc. We’ve seen it in the news just recently with a number of districts.

Don’t mistake me, I am not saying that if something wrong exists with a charter it’s ok because it happens in districts, too. What I am saying is that we need better controls in place for public education in general in traditionals and charters. Frankly, if you truly believe that you have issues with Cherokee, you can get that addressed close to immediately with their authorizer. The state has done a good job of putting some good controls in place in the last year or two since the Commission started operations – they visit board meetings to oversee them occasionally, check websites, etc. If I tried to get things addressed with a local school district, it’s nearly impossible because of the deeply rooted business and personal relationships in the community and frankly, the level of “power” they wield. Even getting someone voted out of a district seat is nearly impossible in many communities for these same reasons. I know, because I have tried to address some of these issues in my home community. In fact, there are district board members around this state who sit in the minority on issues on their boards who are having to ask for information via open records because their own district staff refuses to give it up! The nonsense continues without any oversight of these matters.

I will stand right beside you if you choose to go to the legislature and/or the state board to address issues of control across K-12 public education. But please, look more broadly at the reasons for this amendment and how it will be implemented. If needed, contact the state or the prior Commission director and ask how oversight is/was conducted and express your concerns – I believe they will listen.

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Charter,

First I have been very vocal about the abuse of private/public ventures outside of the Charter school issue. Second the national failure rate of charter schools at 12 percent concerns me, especially when it doubled in Florida when they made it easier to get a school. Third when you combine this from what I am seeing in my own district with a charter school the read flag is up. Forth, I come from the financial service industry, and I have seen the results of when the government makes tax payers take more risk than the private company.

With all that said, I think in many areas we do need charter schools, especially in low performing school districts. In high performing school districts it should be used more as an inhancement to what is not offered. My fear is without proper control this will be a land grap for private companies making cash of tax payers, with tax payers taking the majority of risk and us left holding the bag………

As I said with the proper controls I would 100 percent support the idea.

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@ John – We have had some closures in Georgia, but no where close to 12%. Closures SHOULD happen if a model doesn’t work. It is a shame this is only the case for charters.

I have seen the shift in authorization requirements change – the state (and many districts) are asking much harder questions about relationships with management companies, particularly when there is a building involved. I know for a fact that the Commission pushed back hard on some boards to work on their management agreements to ensure the schools were protected. I know that Walton, in funding charters, requires all assets to be owned by the school. Ask your questions to the state and see what answer you get about how this is considered during the authorization process and in oversight long term.

I wish you would go on a tour of charters around the state – I think you would be inspired by what you see. Despite your concerns with Cherokee, I encourage you to go there, too, as there is good instruction happening.

I am glad and appreciative you are asking the question in traditional education, too. It’s an important one and we MUST get control of the problem for all sectors of public education. Our public school teachers are not getting what they need to do their jobs and morale is very, very low. That impacts kids. My concern is not just for charters getting authorized, but for improved practices at the district level that will impact classrooms positively in traditional K-12 education.

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sorry,

Below is just one example showing I am not part of the public school establishment……..

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Rep. Jan Jones, a Republican in Georgia’s House of Representatives and a member of ALEC, sponsored the constitutional amendment resolution, HR 1162. This morning Bill Moyers broadcast a further expose on ALEC’s tentacles into state legislatures, in which ALEC’s agenda of the privatization of public institutions is primary, including public schools.

I urge every reader to take the time to view the video in the link below, which is Moyer’s broadcast on public television this morning, and through which Bill Moyers exposes further ALEC’s secretive methods of fulfilling their agenda of corporate interests into public education.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/09/28/bill-moyers-alec-is-still-everywhere/

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20 of Georgia’s state senators are members of ALEC, including Senate Majority Leader Chip Rogers.
38 of Georgia’s state representatives are members of ALEC, including Rep. Jan Jones.

The link, below, names all of Georgia’s legislators who are members of ALEC.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Georgia_ALEC_Politicians

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@CS2-Finally got a moment to reply although it may not be as comprehensive as I wish it could be due to my new gorgeous baby and time constraints. I remember a few weeks back we exchanged views and you refused to reveal who you are but would only say you are an educator and mother. After watching the very informative Bill Moyers “The United States of ALEC” I think I have figured out why you won’t reveal yourself-you are an “educator” working for ALEC and closely tied to them and their agenda to push the charter amendment and privatize our public education system. Their agenda is clear-they write policy that their “members”, who are predominantly the republican legislature throughout our country, who will ultimately push and pass bills that will lead to the privatization of things like education and make money for the huge corporations who fun them. Again, ALEC is funded by corporations who end up becoming RICH when the legislation is passed. It is no surprise that Jan Jones and Chip Rogers are both members of ALEC. It is so scary and the public do need to be educated, especially since this charter amendment is only the 1st step in their desire to privatize our public education system in Georgia. So CS2, I think I have cracked your MO and that is the reason why you can’t/won’t reveal your identity.

With regards to the points you raise to argue my comments, you have stretched them so tenuously. 1. the parent contribution required by the for-profit charter schools-while they are stated as not being mandatory, there have been reports ot children being “chastised” or “marginalized” by having their name up on the wall as being non-contributors. And, yes, parents in public schools are asked to provide supplies but these are not mandatory and the child is def not vilified if the parent can’t provide them. Also, it is a far cry from the $500 to $1200 requested by some FOR-PROFIT CHARTERS.
2. Yes, some students have to be transferred from public schools to alternative schools but the attrition rates in charters are MUCH HIGHER. KIPP has an attrition rate of 40% and is usually those who are expelled because the parents don;t pay the disciplinary fines or the students scores are low and will bring down their much lauded high scores.
3. The segregation that charter schools bring. Funnily enough, there is a study that shows that is exactly what is happening- charter schools are seen by parents as an opportunity to segregate their children from those they deem to be riff-raff.

You talk about how teachers have a greater voice and are more valued. This report shows that the attrition rate for teachers in charter schools is huge, so I disagree.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/education/article/It-s-harder-for-charter-schools-to-keep-teachers-3905914.php

CS2-you try to bend your argument as if charter schools are “for the children” but the for-profit ones are there to line the pockets of the corporations who own them-it’s NOT ABOUT THE CHILDREN. Everyone wants to see that our children will have a good education and this can be done by working to improve our public education system, not dismantling it, which is what ALEC and, by association, you want to do.

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@CS2- it has been shown repeatedly that charter schools,in the whole, do NOT perform better traditional schools whether we look at it on a nationwide or state level. That has been covered on more than one occasion on this blog, see just one report confirming this:

http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/SingleStudyReview.aspx?sid=197#

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@ Mary Elizabeth, Sept. 30, 12:39 pm. I would like to know more about ALICE…starting with the words for which it is an acronym. I am cheered that it has been formed.

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@sneak peak into education, 1:19 pm

“Make no mistake, the legislature will make it nigh impossible to close these schools should this amendment pass. VOTE NO if you want to keep our schools out of the hands of the ALEC backed profiteers.”
================================================

I wholeheartedly agree that citizens should VOTE NO on the proposed constitutional amendment.

Public tax dollars – meant for public schools which serve all students equally – must not be used to fund corporate designs on the “educational industry” for profit. Students must never be used for profit purposes.

Thank you for all of your comments, today especially, on this thread.

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@ John Konop – I cannot understand you. Every single charter school in this state – both local and state approved – are funded at LESS than the traditional schools. Every one. And they are performing. You are saying we should keep on piping money into districts, some at up to $15,000 per student, who are failing kids year after year because that makes better financial sense? Truly I am lost in that logic.

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Charter,

In looking at the numbers in Cherokee county that is not true. Mike Geist our school board member is using numbers without understanding how capitalization works.

You cannot compare renting with owning for numerous reasons. You understand when you rent you never own the property, building……..If you own or expand that payment goes away after you pay off the note. Also you cannot compare an expanding school district like Cherokee with one school without understanding this above concept. This would be like comparing 2 pizza shops one expanding and one not expanding. No one would compare the two with expansion cost added back into one of the location for comparing two location especially if the new location is not even open.

In Cherokee that alone make the numbers fairly tight from what I have seen. And then when you add in the extra cost for transportation, special needs at the same ratio and high school costing more, one could argue the charter school got a better deal.

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@ John – I’m not following you (sorry). I am not talking about expenditures. I’m talking about straight up revenue earned. Help me understand what you’re trying to say.

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Charter,

You have to compare apples with oranges when you compare the revenue, the numbers Geist is using would be laughed at by any real accountant. It is really scary if you have board members that do not understand capitalization.

You cannot compare revanue unless you normalize for variables.

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@ John – I don’t know Geist or what he said. I know you can’t compare apples and oranges. I do understand very clearly how public education in Georgia is funded based on variables such as school size, class size, student population, etc. When you apply the same formula to charters prescribed in the law and compare it to what districts earn, the charters earn less. One good example is with facilities. Charters earn no facilities funds at all and have to utilize their operational funds (QBE) to procure their facilities. Districts get additional capital dollars from the state above and beyond QBE, as well as SPLOST funds, etc. Charters don’t have access to many of the state and federal grants the districts earn. There are other revenue sources that create the disparity. You should read Ball State University’s nationwide study on charter school funding and specifically the chapter on Georgia’s charters. It’s very interesting and may give you a good perspective.

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I hear what you are saying, but the QBE formula takes that into consideration in how it is calculated based on its programmatic weights, funding based on class and school size, and a variety of other factors.

Plus, “cost” is related to what a board chooses to spend and how they elect to implement their programs. Cost is relative across schools and districts.

You have to start with a funding formula that is as equitable as possible, and districts and charters alike must budget programming, facilities, staffing, etc. based on available funds. One would think that a district would have less costs than a singular charter due to economy of scale. Further, charters have additional “costs” for procuring buildings, as they are often not able to access the bond market and have to go to more expensive, conventional loans…and they have to make this happen on less revenue.

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@CS2-With regards to your reply and your derogatory comments you are dead wrong when you say I have zero data to back up what I say. I have attached links with studies, reports from charter systems around the country indicating the huge problems that some face, and reports by people (parents/teachers etc…) directly involved in the game.

I have 2 points that I feel need to be stated before I sign off for the night
1. You may or may not have better graduation rates but it has been shown that many charters will suddenly move the low performing students out before graduation so that their figures look better. (I will find the link a post it later)
2. You say you have never heard about ALEC until Mary Elizabeth recently brought it to your attention. Now that you do know about them and their ulterior motives regarding the privatization of public education not for the sake of the children, but to line the pockets of their members/backers. Doesn’t this make you leery of supporting a charter amendment now that you know the very people who wrote the policy have only one interest at hand-privatizing education so that their members/backers can make MONEY off the backs of our children. They are shameless profiteers. Why would you want to be affiliated with an organization like this?

I would urge everyone to watch the Bill Moyers “The United States of ALEC”. I think when the public wakes up and realizes their motives and the that of those we elect into public office, they will be astounded. They are shameless in their quest to privatize everything, not for the public good, but to make a bucket load o’ cash.They don’t care about the children-only the Benjamins!!

To Mary Elizabeth-thank you for your kind comments. Please continue your work in educating the public about ALEC and their plans to annihilate our public education system. It is clear that ALEC has been working in the shady nooks and dark corners of our state capital buildings but your posts have helped to shine a light and expose them for what they are.

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Charter,

First when it come to percentage of adminstrative cost Cheroke Charter is higher than Cherokee public schools ie your scale point. Second, if you do not provide transportation you should not be paid for it. Third, if you do not have the same ratio of special needs students you should not be paid for it. Forth if the school is buying an asset for a new school not opened, you cannot compare what was spent on a school by school basis adding that revanue. finally if a county is buying an asset you would treat that revanue spent diferent than revanue spent on rent. I could go on and on, but the point is you cannot just take gross revanue and dived it by the students without understanding the variables.

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Alright, John, that’s very helpful in moving our discussion along. Let me address each point:

1. Administrative costs – Each school (district, charter, etc.) is funded by the state for administration. It accounts for about 1% of the total QBE revenue. Any costs above this must be funded from elsewhere. Districts will fund theirs with local funds, and the state charters will likely fund it from supplemental state funds. We have districts in the state with as low as 2.5 – 3% in central admin costs….all the way up to 22%. Costs are relative to the organizational structure of the district/school. The revenue doesn’t change based on these decisions, or otherwise, the central offices would be even larger to bring in more dollars.

2. Have you ever seen Cherokee’s funding? Go here: http://app3.doe.k12.ga.us/ows-bin/owa/qbe_reports.public_menu?p_fy=2000

You’ll have to scroll down past most of the districts to find them. You will see that they earn $0 for transportation. In order for them to get transportation funds, the state will require them to have a bus and to transport kids following state safety and reporting guidelines.

3. If you look on that same report and add up Cherokee’s SPED FTE and divide by their total FTE, they are at 7.2%. Do the same for the district. They are at 5.5%. I agree that you should only get funded for who you serve, and that is exactly what happens with the QBE formula.

4. I agree with you, but you must also realize that you do not know what the facilities arrangement says. Irrespective of what the school SPENDS, it is spending it on less revenue per pupil. District per pupil is calculated by taking all revenue sources and dividing by # of FTE (you can see this on the state’s website here: http://app3.doe.k12.ga.us/ows-bin/owa/fin_pack_revenue.entry_form

We have districts who lease modular buildings for classrooms and retail space for their drop out recovery programs. The revenue is the revenue is the revenue.

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@CS2- your comments only inspire me to continue to shine a light in the dark world of ALEC, whose destructive policies you support. I give evidence of what has happened in other states because they are laying the groundwork for what will come in GA should this amendment pass. Charter schools are not a new concept and their results are there for the world to see. They have had time to prove that they are the silver bullet in education and, as of yet, failed to live up to the panacea they claimed they would be. Of course, there are some that are excellent and do a great job. I am not against the concept of charter schools but I am vehemently opposed to the for-profit charter schools.

By the way, I do have experience in charter schools in Georgia, so you are mistaken. And I have personal experience on a work and personal level.

I do think that no matter what evidence is placed before your eyes with regards to the for-profit charter movement, you seem determined to defend them at all costs and can see no wrong in them and their profiteering motives. As stated previously, now that you know about the destructive polices of the ALEC movement, whose policies have clearly indicated that their motive is to dismantle public education and put it in the hands of big corporations for the sole purpose of making them huge amounts of money, why would you support this? I don’t know how anyone who values a free and public education for all could and would.

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I urge the reading audience to read Jay Bookman’s excellent column regarding charter schools (and the constitutional amendment) which appeared in yesterday’s Sunday edition of the AJC.

Below are the link to that column, and a few of Bookman’s closing lines from the column:
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“In many places, particularly in rural Georgia, charters attract students who would otherwise attend private schools. . . .

You then create a system in which committed parents and prepared students gravitate toward charters, stripping other schools of the raw materials from which successful schools are made. That dynamic is an important reason to leave the authority to create charters with local officials who know their own communities, rather than with political appointees in Atlanta.”

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/10/01/state-created-charters-sidestep-public-schools/?cp=1

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“and the thousands of for profit vendors tied to the school districts and paying for hunting trips and “conferences””

Prove that, please. I would benefit from evidence to back that up. I’ve taught in public schools all my career, and have frequently dealt with book and software vendors. I’ve yet to get those perks and would love to know how I missed them for twenty-plus years.

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@ Sneak Peak – you say, “What I don’t agree with is, and it’s not a conspiracy theory; it is fact and it is happening whether you want to admit it or not, there is a push to put our public schools in the hands of big corporations who have no interest in education but only in making money. ”

What do you say about the charters around our state, both locally approved and state approved who are NOT connected with a management company? What do you say to these folks?

You have yet to prove your conspiracy with ALEC, particularly given the number of non-EMO affiliated charters. I happen to believe that the School Board’s Association is the downfall of our public school system, as they train weak boards and drive policy that is harmful to teachers and students. When they SHOULD be advocating this hard for state policies and laws and budget revisions to address the needs of teachers and parents, they are spending 2 million of PUBLIC MONEY for lobbying to protect power and money of local school bureaucracies. That’s a fact, Jack.

As for the media having “unbiased” views, that is laughable. Did you not see the NBC just got hammered TWICE for doctoring videos? Is it not interesting that the Cox heiress has invested in the anti-charter campaign heavily and the AJC just happens to print nothing but anti-charter material? Please. Unbiased my foot. And as for Jay Bookman’s “blog” – why don’t you go LOOK at the demographics of the charters in our state. Go look at the state website on the annual reports and on all of the School Report Cards (demographics). You can SAY all you want, but the fact of the matter is that about half of the charter kids qualify for free and reduced lunch. Prove otherwise.

And while you are at it, please explain to me why the majority of south Georgia school districts and our urban districts have:

* been under a desegregation order for 30 years or more;
* have census data showing about 50/50 caucasion/minority populations
* have almost 100% minority students in their schools
* have almost 100% caucasian boards and leadership
* and have less than 50% graduation rates and persistently failing schools.

What have these districts done to integrate their schools? Do not EVEN BEGIN to talk to me about segregation and keeping minority students in a cycle of poverty. That is happening and has been happening in our state for DECADES – the Democrats SHOULD BE appalled and supportive of measures that are seeking to address the needs of these children. Our charters are trying to improve the outcomes and options for these kids. Funny that these districts are fighting tooth and nail to prevent it.

But, according to these folks, to hell with the children’s needs. Let’s protect the “local CONTROL (read power)” and money of the adults.

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@ Sneak Peak – you say, “I would love to have someone like you, who is obviously dedicated and works tirelessly, to engage in working to better our public schools rather than support an entity that will lead to a segregation and, ultimately, privatizing of our educational system. I want a quality education for all, not just a select few.”

You know, I HAVE tried to work within the system, but the entrenched power of the individuals leading these systems and protecting their golden eggs is too much for one mom (or even several) to handle. I worked in PTA and taught school and volunteered for all sorts of things in the traditional setting before getting involved with chartering. Not even a blip in education in Georgia has improved in decades. Not for all of the newfangled education plans, the 3 different curricula, the technology push, and the zillions of dollars funneled to educational contractors etc. Nothing has made a difference.

You know what HAS made a difference? Charters. We have tens of thousands of kids in successful charter schools, and for THOSE kids, there is a different that the traditional districts didn’t make.

The charter sector doesn’t seek to JUST educate the few hundreds that pass through their doors every year – yes, that is a goal, but a bigger objective is to REFORM what we have in our Georgia public schools. To put enough pressure on the districts through real competition that they will CHANGE, PROFOUNDLY, their priorities in spending, their views on the importance of teacher and parent input at the school level, and how they educate kids.

Frankly, I’m glad this process has been challenging to the district officials – that means the charter sector is doing its job and breaking up this educational morass that has plagued our state (and nation) for decades. Eventually, that will be better for kids and better for the educators instructing them.

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Mary Elizabeth
I would like to add ALEC to my list of reasons to not like Charters, but I need help.

1. I don’t understand how ALEC is any different than the for-profit organizations that feed off traditional public schools.

2. I don’t understand how management companies are more for-profit than the executive administrations across the state with administrators making $200K – $400K+ annually in salaries and benefits.

Thanks for your help!!

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@ Mary Elizabeth –

Explain to me why some legislators such as Alisha Thomas Morgan and Margaret Kaiser are supportive of this measure. You keep trying to point your finger to Jan Jones, but you have failed to show that every legislator in support of this is a member of ALEC or gives two hoots about them.

As for the huge pushback against Barge’s statements and the possible lawsuit, those are VERY simple to answer.

1. What he published is a pack of lies that is refuted by the state’s own annual reports and data.

2. He was a district superintendent, leads ALL superintendents, and is deeply vested with GSBA and GSSA.

3. Parents are tired of officials wasting tax dollars on their personal agendas to mislead the public. He and the school districts engaging in these activities are going to have a whole lot of work to prove that this wasn’t illegal or unethical.

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DeKalb Teacher, 11:20 am

Both of your questions address the profit factor which is an element within traditional public schools and has been for decades. Notice that I said “an element within.” Profit is not the overriding motivation behind the existence of traditional public schools. Traditional public schools exist to serve all students equally within school districts through public taxes. Please understand that the overall movement behind ALEC is to transform most public institutions to private ones, not simply educational institutions. I believe in balance. I believe ALEC’s ideology is unbalanced because of its over-emphasis on privatization. The public interest traditionally serves the common good of all citizens. Private markets serve private interests. I believe that profit needs to stay out of public education as much as is possible. The answer to your question, in a nutshell, is the DEGREE of emphasis on profit in traditional public schools vs. the DEGREE of emphasis on profit within privatized schools and within some quasi-private public charter schools. Many of the proponents of school choice wish to tap into the “educational industry” for overall profit reasons. School choice proponents often try to persuade the public that the profit factor within traditional public schools is equivalent to the profit factor in the private school market in order to sell their agenda to the public, but that equation cannot be made entirely equivalent because public schools serve the public good, primarily, not private, special interests, primarily.

Secondly, you must ask yourself why ALEC has attempted to keep its motivations, and even its existence, secretive for so many decades as it has advanced its ends for corporate interests. ALEC’s purposes have now been exposed to full public transparency through many publications, such as the article by Diane Ravitch to which I gave a link to yesterday on this thread. Moreover, corporations such as Coca-Cola are now withdrawing from ALEC, as are some legislators. One must ask why? Much of this is explained through the “ALEC links” that I provided earlier on this thread.

ALICE is an organization offers an antidote to ALEC. Notice how this organization has been open to transparency regarding what it wishes to accomplish since its inception. Notice, also, that it relies on public interest advocates and volunteers, not paid corporate lobbyists, to help form its legislation. I provided information about ALICE (and the link about it) in my 12:38 pm post yesterday on this thread. (I’ll repeat one paragraph for you, below.)

The below content about ALICE, from the link I provided yesterday, will offer you a contrast with ALEC:

“Like ALEC, ALICE is a values-based nonprofit that offers model legislation over a broad range of state and local issues. But it’s easily distinguished from its counterpart. ALICE aims to promote, not destroy, economic fairness, environmental sustainability, and effective democratic government. Its model laws are public, not secret. They’re written by public interest advocates and volunteers, not paid corporate lobbyists. They cover local, not just state, policy. They include law originating from the executive branch and directly from citizens, as well as from legislative bodies. And ALICE only provides such model law and written supports for its persuasive communication.”

Thirdly, notice that billionaire donors such as the Koch Brothers, who are major contributors to ALEC, have had a stealthy ideological mission to to turn America to a more liberatian nation in which government is minimized and the private sector maximized for decades. Of course, minimizing government helps to keep under suppression government regulations that directly effect the Koch Brothers’ corporate expansions and, therefore, their financial expansions. (See The New Yorker article, “Covert Operations,” by Jane Mayer, August 30, 2010. Link to that article: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer )

I believe, however, that America must maintain a balance between the public and the private sectors for the nation to function well, and part of maintaining that balance means keeping public schools truly public ones that serve the common good, not quasi-private public schools that are motivated to exist through the accruing of profit. We must improve public education from within, with the help of district-assigned charter schools. We must stop the ideological mission to dismantle traditional public schools.

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DeKalb Teacher, I’m glad your are with me!

Public institutions have often outsourced specific job functions within their operations to private companies, but what is going on, today in Georgia relative to education, is an attempt to completely overhaul the educational delivery system away from traditional public schools toward various other “school choice” delivery options – that will, also, happen to enhance the pocketbooks of private profiteers.

Read as much for the following link as you have time. Ms. Knopp does an excellent job of explaining this national movement, which has tentacles into Georgia’s legislature, via ALEC.

http://www.isreview.org/issues/62/feat-charterschools.shtml

To answer your last question, one poster wisely suggested that all schools (traditional public schools and charter schools) should be audited regularly by an impartial out-of-state auditing service to make certain that the private companies that are hired by public schools are not assigned for personal profit purposes, but that they are hired to serve a job function which specifically serves the common good.

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