Georgia’s schizophrenic politics of education

Lee Raudonis is a former teacher and former executive director of the Georgia Republican Party. He is a communications consultant and writer for an education publication. He coordinates the STAR program for the PAGE Foundation. (The Student Teacher Achievement Recognition (STAR) program honors Georgia’s outstanding high school seniors and the teachers who have been most instrumental in their academic development.)

This is his first essay for the blog. Welcome.

By Lee Raudonis

I admit it. I am confused. I do not understand the method behind what certainly appears to be the madness of Georgia education policies. O.K., maybe “madness” is too strong of a term to use, but there is no doubt that many educators—and parents— consider our state’s approach to education policy over the past decade to be both confusing and maddening. There is not much doubt that it has been schizophrenic.

Think about it. Early in the new century Georgia was one of the first states to embrace the policies of No Child Left Behind, including increasing accountability and testing. At the same time, the legislature significantly raised education spending in order to lower class size, and the governor pushed to strengthen the curriculum. And then, toward the end of the decade—even before the recession—the state imposed significant budget “austerity” reductions that have lead to increased class sizes, and, in many systems, to shortened school years (some systems hold classes less than 150 days a year).

With large numbers of the state’s schools forced to fire or furlough teachers, as well as cut back on education programs, including art, music, physical education and others, many legislators began to ramp up their criticism of the public schools for “teaching to the test” (but not scoring high enough on the same tests), having class sizes that were too large to provide individual attention, and having “poorly-trained” teachers who were “failing” to educate far too many students.

The real failure has been that of the elected officials who have failed to connect the dots between their legislative policies and many of the conditions that exist in the public schools. They have also failed to understand how these unacceptable conditions in the schools might be addressed.

Rather than attempt to find additional funding to lower class size and keep the doors open, the critics began to devise a myriad of plans to help students “escape’ from their neighborhood schools to private or charter schools. This has led to even more schizophrenic policies.

One that comes readily to mind is the state’s recent push to promote STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics) education while simultaneously devising a clever system to provide state-funded scholarships for parents to send their children to private religious schools where theories such as Darwin’s Theory of Evolution are treated like something scientists dreamed up while taking mind-altering drugs. No doubt about it, teaching the Biblical explanation of creation over that of the scientists will go a long way to boost Georgia’s reputation in the STEM community and the nation’s top colleges and universities.

Meanwhile, as most schools continued to struggle just to keep the doors open for a full school year, the politicians jumped headlong into another federal program called Race to the Top. This latest federal “cash for cooperation” plan calls for even more testing and accountability and could eventually cost the state billions of dollars it obviously does not have. Do the politicians really plan to implement any of the Race to the Top programs, such as Pay for Performance, or did they just see a way to get their hands on federal dollars to replace some of the state funding they had cut?

Is it any wonder that so many of us are confused? How can anyone understand the seemingly schizophrenic policies pursued by our elected officials over the past decade?

Unfortunately, there are no signs of a cure in sight. Even now, legislators are attempting to “fix” our public schools by taking even more money from them to fund state charter schools against the wishes of education officials in local communities. Isn’t that a curious policy for those who claim to support “local control” in education?

If you are as confused as I am, ask your legislative candidates to explain the state’s education policies to you. Their answers should be entertaining if not enlightening.

– From Maureen Downey,for the AJC Get Schooled blog

144 comments Add your comment

Tina Trent

September 26th, 2012
3:02 am

Consultant and writer? For whom, exactly? When it comes to education policy, it really is all about the money trail. So I’m not particularly inclined to believe a vague narrative like this one when I’m not offered an admission of professional interest. Represents public school teachers is what I’d guess. That would explain the weird diatribe about creationism, offered with no evidence of the actual scope of such a problem. I don’t disagree with everything said here, but, for one example, is it really true that class size matters as much as Mr. Raudonis claims? If you’re going to lobby for a particular policy, have the respect to let us know you’re a lobbyist, and then make an argument with facts.

Mary Elizabeth

September 26th, 2012
3:19 am

I am not confused at all. It is my opinion that Republicans who control Georgia’s legislature are in lockstep with a national Republican ideology that is intent on transforming traditional public education into a business enterprise of the private market. I do not believe that it would do any good to ask Republican legislative candidates to explain the state’s educational policies to me because I think that I would only get political spin as an answer, which would be neither entertaining or enlightening to me.

A poster on another thread posted this after midnight tonight. I think it is worthy of being reposted here:
=============================================

“Foolish Teachers and Parents…You keep voting for them…..I did too…but never again….

Here is what your Republican government reps. have done to ‘make education better’ for the past ten years.

1. Take more money out of the public schools. That will make them better.

2. Increase the class sizes of public schools. Those test scores will go up and education will improve.

3. Have more testing. Those tests will make the teachers better, and who needs to teach when we have day after day of testing, meetings about testing, and test preparation.

4. Add laws and rules that make the public schools worse and then blame the teachers when students don’t perform well on the tests that they want to use for a basis of pay and school performance.

5. Use those same scores to explain failing schools to usher in charter schools.

IT’S BRILLIANT! They are heading towards the outsourcing of teachers and public education by the decisions that they, your Republican representatives of Georgia, have made for the past ten years.

We keep voting for them, and they keep damaging the classrooms of our kids.

I voted straight Republican in the last election as I have for every election, but it will never happen again.

We are being duped by the Republicans WE are voting into office.”

David Hoffman

September 26th, 2012
3:54 am

To Tina Trent, The article states: “Lee Raudonis is a former teacher and former executive director of the Georgia Republican Party”. When your own party’s members consider your policies bad, you might want to reconsider staying with those policies.

BehindEnemyLines

September 26th, 2012
4:14 am

Rather disingenuous to avoid revealing Raudonis’ relationship with PAGE. http://www.pagefoundation.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=66

If his meandering attempt at writing didn’t destroy his credibility, that little tidbit you so carefully sidestepped certainly does.

Jezel

September 26th, 2012
5:53 am

Tina Trent….Go teach for a year…then come back and tell us about the importance of class size.

MiltonMan

September 26th, 2012
6:37 am

“1. Take more money out of the public schools. That will make them better.”

The lib solution to everything – just dump more and more money at the problem and eventually it will be better. North Fulton schools get half the funding as do the schools within the APS yet perform significantly better yet libs cannot explain that one. And blaming the republicans for this problem??? How soon they forget that none other than their chosen clown Roy Barnes started the “blame teacher” game.

HS Math Teacher

September 26th, 2012
6:37 am

I don’t think the Educrats in our State DOE are much better. Combine all these wizards with strange-looking tools, all climbing up under the hood trying to fix an engine. It’s a damned mess.

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
6:51 am

pity so many posters immediately went to the old and and tired cow of blaming the republicans instead of thinking. but that’s a major reason we got into this mess. quick jingoistic responses and not enough thinking

Jezel

September 26th, 2012
6:54 am

If we were to cut the county offices and state dept. of ed. by 90 percent…how much money would be available for adding teachers?

Who profited from the whole language approach to the teaching of reading and who profited from the integrated math program? Both were/are failures. Did anyone really expect them to be a success? How much did it cost to prove they were nonsense?

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
7:01 am

while this is a multi layered problem, I think much of it stems from a “natural” pendulum swing in politics. at the beginning of the decade, the influence of Zell Miller was still very strong. and Zell was an unusually aggressive proponent of education, while being a strong person at the same time.

4 years of King Roy – BTW Mary Elizabeth, a DEMOCRAT – and 8 of Sonny Perdue , neither strong leaders but strong politicians, combined with a near meltdown of the economy at the same time the political pendulum was due to swing….

here we are….from visionary to blind

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
7:04 am

more and more, Sonny Perdue and company remind me of the Long family who dominated the political landscape in Louisiana for decades. screw the state, I want power.

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
7:12 am

what’s even more disturbing is so many Georgia educational systems are in trouble with the lax standards of SACS.

GPC
Clayton
APS
DeKalb

and there are so many more at issue in some degree with SACS it would take too long to list them.

something is fundamentally wrong.

Annie

September 26th, 2012
7:18 am

Jezel, the line item in education funding called “central administration” which includes central office, school psychologists, social workers, makes up 8% of the total education budget. Cutting all of those people would not help very much in over-all funding. Plus, teachers in the classrooms and administrators in the school would not receive any funding if central staff was not performing the administrative tasks and compliance that generates funds. Without school psychologists, the federal requirements for special education would not be met. The general public may not realize that if central staff in a school system does not perform their job, then federal and state funding will cease. That being said, there are school districts that likely are top-heavy, and that should be examined. Remember that the legislature, both federal and state, not the school district, makes the rules for reporting and monitoring requirements that are performed by central office personnel.

Fred ™

September 26th, 2012
7:19 am

Most respectfully Mr. Raudonis what you are seeing is the fruition of YOUR Republican Party ideas of how a school should be run. The decade you are wondering about is THE decade of Republican rule. As the Executive Director of the Republican party I can safely hold you directly to blame. This is what you wanted ands this is what you got. No shifting of the blame here.

How to fix it? We can’t. As you can see by MiltonMan’s comments your attempts to completely indoctrinate your electorate that anyone left of Attila the Hun is a “librul” and therefore evil has been more successful than you can imagine. You have taught them that teachers are lazy scum who teach because they aren’t smart enough do any “real’ work. You have taught them that local school systems and school boards are populated by evil “libruls” who just want to spend spend spend, even as you Republicans failed in your State Constitutional duties to fund the schools.

In short sir, YOU loosed this monster on us. And your current Republican solution/ Gut the schools even mre by creating “charter schools” so you can steal what little money is left and funnel it to your buddies disguised as “non profits.”

Shame on you. Man up and take responsibility, don’t write trite little essays. Reign in your broken party. Take ownership of the mess you made, don’t sit on the sidelines now and point fingers. Those fingers point directly back at YOU and YOUR policies.

Annie

September 26th, 2012
7:21 am

Bootie, there are 180 school districts in Georgia. Put the blame on the school boards of those that are in violation of SACS requirements, not the other 175 who are doing a pretty good job.
If the legislature wants to shore up those systems, then put requirements on them and leave the rest of the state alone.

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
7:21 am

@ Fred

can you explain DeKalb county?
or King Roy?

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
7:25 am

something kinda pathetic is occurring here.

instead of dealing with the message, certain elements are determined to push a political narrative full speed. this won’t do crap about fixing the issues, but I guess it will make them feel better about the direction of their lives.

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
7:28 am

a question for Dr. John if he shows up:

what would happen on a nuts & bolts level if Georgia stopped participating in the latest federal educational fads? if somehow we got off the train for a few years to reboot our system

Inman Parker

September 26th, 2012
7:37 am

As a long time educator I too like small classes too. However, that being said, there is NO evidence that, beyond the primary grades (Pre-K to 2), class size has any impact whatsoever on student achievement. It is a waste of taxpayer money to spend millions on reducing class size when there is no reason to do so.

Chris Murphy

September 26th, 2012
7:53 am

“….the state imposed significant budget “austerity” reductions that have lead to increased class sizes, and, in many systems, to shortened school years (some systems hold classes less than 150 days a year).”

I’ve heard of systems going to 175 days, vs. the ‘normal’ 180, but where have they scheduled less? Less than 150 days?? Where? I may not be an eagle-eye on all education matters everywhere, but it seems that having a school year of under 150 days would be a hard-to-miss story.

Can’t *anyone* in this state- or country, for that matter- discuss a matter pertaining to education and not rely on tenuous “facts?”

dc

September 26th, 2012
7:54 am

remember, to some blindly narrow minded people, it’s all the fault of one party or the other. That’ll likely never change, as they are fully stuck on the plantation, and can’t see their way out.

The sad reality is, monopolies that have access to OPM (other peoples money, in this case, the taxpayers), will never be efficient, nor innovate. Their proposed solution will always be “NEED MORE MONEY”. And some voters will want to continue to feed the beast (increase funding), because that’s the non-thinking easy way of feeling like we are “doing something for the children”.

taco taco

September 26th, 2012
8:04 am

Can someone answer Jezel’s questions above?

Fred ™

September 26th, 2012
8:12 am

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
7:21 am

@ Fred

can you explain DeKalb county?
or King Roy?
++++++++++++++++++++
“King Roy’ was over ten years ago bootney. Was Dekalb in this mess 10 years ago?

Lee Raudonis

September 26th, 2012
8:22 am

Where to start? Things were so peaceful when I went to sleep last night. To answer Ms. Trent’s concerns, YES, I work (as a consultant, NOT employee) for an education organization, but I write for a magazine and work on an academic recognition program. I have nothing to do with making policy for the organization and, therefore, do not wish for the organization to be blamed for my opinions. (This, I am sure, is why my wife kept her maiden name, too —so she won’t be blamed for my rantings.) Just to be clear, I am not a lobbyist. Frankly, I am bothered by the low-level of this rebuttal, because it mostly involves attacking the author, not the ideas. Would it make my ideas any better if I told you that I taught 11 years in religiously-oriented PRIVATE schools? Does that change the value of my opinions? One of the reasons we as a society have difficulty solving problems is that we engage in too much of this ad hominem rhetoric instead of dealing with the real issues. Among the two issues that Ms. Trent did bother to mention, I can only say from my experience in the classroom (not as a lobbyist) that in terms of class size, smaller is definitely better. As far as my “diatribe” about creationism, I do not pretend that it is a major issue, but it does bug me that my tax dollars are being used to subsidize such “science” when we as a state are trying to become known for an emphasis on STEM education. To conclude for Ms. Trent, you would be much better served not to attack the writers of opinions, but to engage in a healthy debate about the issues.

Now, I would like to address Fred. First, I was involved in the Republican Party in the 1980’s – a long time before the decade we are discussing. Secondly, has anyone in either political party focused on the fact that the “schizophrenia” to which I refer has occurred over a period that began with Republicans in Washington and Democrats in Georgia and then shifted to having Democrats in Washington and Republicans in Georgia? In short, I am holding both parties responsible for the schizophrenia.

The thrust of my argument is that we need to quit jumping from fad to fad and focus on how to improve all of our schools.

P.S. I would love to hear Ms. Trent’s ideas (seriously, I would) on how we can make all of our schools work better for our children That would certainly be more helpful that attacking my motivations.

Fred ™

September 26th, 2012
8:22 am

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
7:25 am

something kinda pathetic is occurring here.

instead of dealing with the message, certain elements are determined to push a political narrative full speed. this won’t do crap about fixing the issues, but I guess it will make them feel better about the direction of their lives.
++++++++++++++++++++++

Your failure to understand does not make the message less clear pal. The author of this little piece helped engineer the problem. Yet he acts as if he were some outsider looking in with a magic fix it button. To deny there is politics in education is to bury your head in the sand. This guy wasn’t just some functionary, he was executive director of the Georgia Republican Party and the decade he is talking about is one which he helped create. It’s like the Captain of the Titanic blaming the Captain of the RMS Carpathia for hitting an iceberg.

OT, but may be of interest to readers of this blog

September 26th, 2012
8:23 am

Bill Moyers is doing a show entitled “The United State of ALEC” – sure to be good.
http://billmoyers.com/

Beatings will continue until morale improves

September 26th, 2012
8:30 am

@taco

If you cut the central office by 90%, you could add more teachers. Shoot, some of them have teaching certificate, give them a teaching contract, and ship them off to the schools

Our former super in my county under SACS investigation has a salary that could easily create 3-4 teaching jobs at the T-5 level. We had to cut teachers, but move the RT3 bureaucrats into our school who do nothing to contribute to the school.

On another note, I love how this “education nation” BS that NBC is doing is 90% education bureaucrats 10% teachers. So much for innovative ideas. I will say it once, and I will say it again, if you are in a position of leadership in a school and have less than 10 year experience as a teacher, then you do not get my respect. You just saw teaching as a rest stop on the way to administration. If DCSD can get administrators Ph.D’s paid for with RT3 blood money, then something is not stirring the pudding.

I loved watching the shouting fest on WSB yesterday at the Capitol over school charters, sans the 7th grader getting some of the brunt too. Schizophrenia educational policy is a spot on for how this state operates its schools.

My current thought on charter schools (Im still undecided)
Why trade for one tyrant 3000 miles away, when you will now have 3000 tyrants one mile away? – Mather Byles to Nathaniel Emmons during the American Revolution.

Beatings will continue until morale improves

September 26th, 2012
8:31 am

Oh darn, I hope Bernard the grammar Nazi/teacher advocate doesn’t come and get me. I just noticed a typo

Solutions

September 26th, 2012
8:49 am

I do not see how paying all teachers more money will improve their performance in the classroom. Paying new teachers more if have at least a Masters degree in the subject they are teaching might over time improve the classroom performance, but across the board raises accomplish nothing. The old method of “see one, do one, teach one” is a proven method of instruction that incorporates the three areas of learning, information input (seeing, hearing), mental understanding, and information output (verbal, written or physical manipulation). Sitting in class all day listening to the teacher drone on is what passes for information input in the public schools. I suggest a more active approach to learning that includes the student writing down what they have learned, and perhaps teaching another student the concept. Reading the material prior to class would be a big help too, that is what successful students do. Forget all the “policy maker’s” fancy programs, just ignore them (better yet, tell the policy maker to go to H).

Batgirl

September 26th, 2012
8:55 am

@Chris Murphy, students in my district are in school only 160 days. However, like you I’m not aware of any system going 150 days or less.

sheepdawg

September 26th, 2012
9:05 am

Perfect!! Worth posting again!! This one is worth posting daily!!!

“Foolish Teachers and Parents…You keep voting for them…..I did too…but never again….

Here is what your Republican government reps. have done to ‘make education better’ for the past ten years.

1. Take more money out of the public schools. That will make them better.

2. Increase the class sizes of public schools. Those test scores will go up and education will improve.

3. Have more testing. Those tests will make the teachers better, and who needs to teach when we have day after day of testing, meetings about testing, and test preparation.

4. Add laws and rules that make the public schools worse and then blame the teachers when students don’t perform well on the tests that they want to use for a basis of pay and school performance.

5. Use those same scores to explain failing schools to usher in charter schools.

IT’S BRILLIANT! They are heading towards the outsourcing of teachers and public education by the decisions that they, your Republican representatives of Georgia, have made for the past ten years.

We keep voting for them, and they keep damaging the classrooms of our kids.

I voted straight Republican in the last election as I have for every election, but it will never happen again.

We are being duped by the Republicans WE are voting into office.”

stats

September 26th, 2012
9:12 am

Murray County students attend school for 160 days. Teachers are furloughed for seven days. There are two pre-planning and one post-planning day. There aren’t any real professional learning days. There are not any substitutes. In the middle school students have Band, P.E./Health, Technology, Agriculture, and Fast ForWord as connection classes. There are minimal staff in Central Office. Teachers are stressed and over worked but students are learning. Times are tough and money is short. Budgets have been cut in every department due to flex spending. But teachers are teaching and students are learning. Test scores, though I hate to use them as an example, are higher every year. Poverty is high in Murray County but thankfully teachers are making it work.

Jezel

September 26th, 2012
9:18 am

Annie I am quite sure there are stats that say class size affects student achievement..just as you say there are stats to prove the contrary.

If class size does not affect student achievement..why don’t we just have one algebra teacher, one English teacher, one biology teacher…etc..for each school. Knock down the walls between class rooms..use closed circuit tv….get the picture?

Of course the teacher student ratio has an affect on learning. Money for new programs will not improve student achievement…but money for more teachers will improve student achievement.

Nice job of defending central office people.. but I do not buy it.

Beatings will continue until morale improves

September 26th, 2012
9:29 am

My class went from a nice 18 to 37 two weeks ago.

my class of 18 had no one failing no C’s and test averages were in the mid 80s with students requiring IEP services and those needs being met.

My class of 37: More C’s and failing averages test averages are a dismal 73%, with me now struggling to meet my IEP kids needs.

So tell me again how class size does not affect student performance?

I wonder if your a Central Office junkie with a drive by Ed.D

@ solutions

September 26th, 2012
9:32 am

How do you get a kid to read material before they come to class? Good luck with that. BTW, I agree with you on telling these “policy” makers to go to H. I have a degree in my field I teach, and I rarely use the textbook if not for just supplemental information, because its boring. You think teachers droning on is bad, check out some of these textbooks.

Mary Elizabeth

September 26th, 2012
9:39 am

@ sheepdog, 9:05 am

I, also, valued those comments. I, like you, reposted them on this thread.

“One Teacher’s Voice,” is the poster who penned those comments at 12:19 am – early this morning – on the thread entitled, “Another view on charter amendment: Goal in Georgia ought to be cooperation, not competition.”

Dr. John Trotter

September 26th, 2012
9:51 am

Lee, it’s all about the money…or the lack thereof. It’s really not about the the kids’ or any real attempt to improve public education. In fact, I don’t think that the Georgia General Assembly would know educational improvement if it hit it right square in the face. Under the Gold Dome is where QBE (Quit Being an Educator) was hatched in 1985. What a complete failure! I campaigned against this doomed effort to improve education when I ran for the State House as a Republican in 1986 against then 30-year Democratic incumbent Bill Lee. Everyone else on the campaign trail in Georgia was singing its praises. All of the dumb-a$s programs to come down the pike since QBE have done more harm than good in public education. By the way, folks, these are the same folks to actually think that Michelle Rhee or Mark Elgart actually know what they are talking about. Do you remember my original list of the Four Biggest Educational Hypocrites in Georgia? Crawford Lewis, Beverly Hall, Edmond Heatley, and Mark Elgart. (I composed this list way before Lewis was indicted, Hall’s cheating scandal was nationally exposed, Heatley abruptly resigned in Clayton County thinking that he had a job in Berkeley, California, or a fairly thorough examination by the AJC of SACS’s somewhat dubious practices was published a couple of years ago.) I think that I have been proven right about the first three, and sooner or later the public is going to find out more and more about the hypocrisy of Mark Elgart and SACS. SACS is just a union for the superintendents and an enforcer for groups like ALEC and others who are well-connected. Perhaps those like Glenn Brock?

I noticed in today’s AJC that Mark Elgart is snooping around again in Clayton County. He is concerned about “divisiveness” on the school board. (This man just doesn’t seem to like the democratic process.) Also, what came out was apparently his real concern…the school board is thinking of doing its own search for a superintendent and not using education attorney Glenn Brock’s “search” firm. Do you blame them? Glenn Brock gave them Edmond Heatley! Ha! Mark Elgart actually had the nerve to say that the school board did not have the “ability” or “skills” to select a superintendent. Wow. What hubris of this wannabe elitist! Perhaps he and Glenn could dine on seared Salmon and asparagus at the Piedmont Dining Club and choose another “great” superintendent like Edmond Heatley, Barbara Pulliam, or Joe Hairston. All three of these former Clayton County superintendents were selected by “search” firms and were disasters in Clayton County.

I also noted from the comments made under the article that I am being blamed again for things going on now on the Clayton County Board of Education. Well, well, well… If the public only knew! Ha! I was being accused on controlling Trinia Garrett. Wow. I have never even spoken to this lady either directly or indirectly…via email, telephone, balloon, letter, Western Union, or in person. But, yes, I am the Big Bad Wolf. Boo! I haven’t lived in Clayton County in years, and I am currently in South America but I am so concerned about the goings-on of the Clayton County Board of Education that I am “controlling” it. Life is funny! Actually, perhaps Glenn Brock and Mark Elgart think that I am encouraging this school board via long distance (yes, the computer and Magic Jack phones are amazing!) to make its own selections. Well, I hate to disappoint these money-grabbing lads, but I haven’t even given it a thought. It literally hasn’t even crossed my mind. I was simply glad to write perhaps a dozen articles against Edmond Heatley and his administration, and I noticed that the California newspapers quoted me rather extensively.

http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com

http://www.theteachersadvocate.com

Bootney, it’s raining down here, and I will spend a lot of time writing today. Lots of time. Perhaps I can work in “The Taxi School Solution” that I actually composed in congested traffic in a taxi last Friday night. These iPhones are great when you get bored in a taxi. Just take it out and start composing in the Notes section. This was meant to be somewhat whimsical, but in actually, the five points of The Taxi School Solution is, in mind opinion, a sound and practical curriculum and one that does not involve a plugged nickel of federal dollars. Yes, I think that we should disengage from the suffocating federal programs and breathe life back into public education. Freedom and creativity is what we desperately need.

William Casey

September 26th, 2012
10:42 am

@Milton Man: “North Fulton schools get half the funding as do the schools within the APS ” I find this statistic difficult to believe. I’m willing to stand corrected.

Fran Millar

September 26th, 2012
11:08 am

Maureen, I don’t know where this gentleman gets his information,but we are making progress in improving academic achievement. Look at 4th and 8th grade reading and math scores, ACT results (#2 in SREB states), and the most recent SAT report. Furthermore we are giving young people meaningful options besides 4 years of college – BRIDGE bill, HB186 and career pathways. All he seems interested is is more $$ and obviously that hasn’t proved to be the answer – see Atlanta Public Schools. This is the same old rant with no emphasis on student results.

Fran Millar

September 26th, 2012
11:08 am

Gave wrong address -sorry.

Lee Raudonis

September 26th, 2012
11:28 am

I am learning a lot on my first venture into “Get Schooled.” From BehindEnemyLines, I have learned that one can save a lot of energy and useless activity of the brain by simply dismissing someone’s ideas as irrelevant, based on his or her professional connections, work history, or style of writing (maybe on race and gender, too). Undoubtedly, the key to improving our education system is to engage in personal attacks, rather than spend all that effort on debating ideas.

Fran Millar

September 26th, 2012
11:28 am

Really – I was being factual.

DeKalb Teacher

September 26th, 2012
11:45 am

Funding – Nancy Jester does a good job of explaining state and local funding. State funding for each county uses the same formula.

Local county millage rates (2011 rates by county – http://www.nancyjester.com/county-millage-rate-comparison-2011.aspx) are different which directly affects the amount of funding for education.

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
12:59 pm

@ Fred

guess you didn’t care for having your lack of deliberations and emphasis on snark pointed out to you
did you

“pal”?

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
1:00 pm

@ Lee

you seem to have grasped the reality here on the first try.

Lee Raudonis

September 26th, 2012
1:07 pm

I’m not sure if Sen. Millar thinks my 11:28 comments were meant for him, but to be clear, I was referring to earlier comments from a participant called “BehindEnemyLines.” The senator makes some good points about several positive things taking place in Georgia schools, but pointing to the amount of money spent in the city of Atlanta school system does not eliminate the concern that many school systems are suffering from a serious shortage of funding.

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
1:08 pm

@ Dr. John

if we really wish effective and long term educational reform here, the very first thing (IMO) we gotta do is disconnect from the Federal teat. the less connected we are to them, the more latitude we have to actually try to fix things.

right afterward, we gotta impose some sane rules on BOE service, and who qualifies.

then, we need to sit with reasonable people (sorry Fran, we’ll send you notes) and outline
1-realistic expectations
2-realistic goals and benchmarks
3-realistic implementation plans for 1 & 2

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
1:09 pm

@ Fran

how about you focusing on us seeing some actual results from under the dome for awhile?
start by showing us how you have streamlined your staff and functions, and how much of
a pay cut YOU took.

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
1:12 pm

seems to me we are overstaffed with unproductive, self serving, unaccountable state legislators.
all just sucking the state funds and giving us what in return? and how many days do THEY actually
work?

time to RIF a whole hell of a lot of those people.

fran millar

September 26th, 2012
1:29 pm

Thank you Lee. Bootney my salary is about $17k and I share a secretary.I do receive per diem and have an expense account of about $8k. I don’t work in Washington.

Prof

September 26th, 2012
1:29 pm

@ Lee Raudonis, September 26th, 11:28 am: “I am learning a lot on my first venture into “Get Schooled.” ”

I’ve observed from reading this blog for over a year that anyone brave enough to offer an essay here must expect:

strong disagreement within the first 5 posts,
some agreement, that doesn’t seem as memorable as those nasty comments,
twisting of one’s main points to fit the thesis of the poster.

It’s all rather like the teacher’s student evaluations.

William Casey

September 26th, 2012
1:53 pm

I love having people use their real names!

John Konop

September 26th, 2012
1:54 pm

In Cherokee county we obviously have good schools. The schools board rejected the charter school because it did not offer any material extra options for education in Cherokee and also other concerns…..

The state overruled the local school district. We than had an election and the pro charter candidate lost for chair of the board seat by a lot, Janet Reed a school board member that rejected the charter school won.

As a said I get how charter schools are needed in some areas, and if they offer something extra. But if the local voters say no, and we have good schools, why should the state be able to force in a charter school? This makes no fiscal sense, especially when we have other places in the state that really need the help!

Cherokee SAT Scores Surpass State, Nation

…..The Cherokee County School District had the highest SAT district average in the state for the 2011-12 school year….

http://canton-ga.patch.com/articles/ccsd-s-sat-district-average-highest-in-georgia

C Jae of EAV

September 26th, 2012
2:22 pm

@William Casey 09/26 10:42am – No correction needed on your part. Instead it’s the author who submitted to us this unsubstantiated claim who needs to issue a retraction. According to FCS FY 2012 Exec Summary their spending an estimated $9,590 per pupil. APS is reportedly spending an estimated $14,211. Thus FCS is not operating with half of APS funding, more about 67%. Yet another example of the kind of wildly misleading and downright distractionary retoric that’s thrown about in this blog, which people read an accept as gospel truth often without any attempt to vet the claim.

John Konop

September 26th, 2012
2:34 pm

I know Fran Miller well he is big supporter of vocational education, which has been a big issue via education. Once again, I am not against charter schools, I just do not think this bill is set up right. But I do understand the charter issue in his district. That is why this is not a simple issue. My problem is the state issuing charter schools out like pizza coupons. And the Cherokee situation highlights that issue. But from talking with Fran, my opinion is he has real concerns about education.

what's best for kids???

September 26th, 2012
2:42 pm

John, I agree that Senator Millar has concerns with education, but I don’t think that he wants to hear what it is that the educators have to offer as solutions.
I am all for school choice. I am all for charters. I am completely against putting in another layer of government and changing our constitution to do so.

citizen

September 26th, 2012
3:01 pm

In 2000, Diane Ravitch stated on C-Span that 60% of students lack the environmental support systems, (home, neighborhood, family) that is needed to increase the quality outcome we are trying to achieve in public education.
I would like to have some honest debate from classroom teachers about the issues they contend with on a daily basis. Reality is much better than speculation regarding public education.

Beverly Fraud

September 26th, 2012
3:15 pm

Fran Millar, a question:

You are the party of “rule of law” and “personal responsibility.” As such why have to done next to nothing to empower (not hold “accountable” but actually EMPOWER) teachers to have the authority to hold students responsible for both behavior AND academics.

Can you point to a single initiative, with real teeth, that allows the teacher to remove the chronically and/or severely disruptive student from the sanctity of the learning environment?

If not, why not? Aren’t you the party of “rule of law” and “personal responsibility”?

John Konop

September 26th, 2012
4:16 pm

what’s best for kids??? ,

…I am all for school choice. I am all for charters. I am completely against putting in another layer of government and changing our constitution to do so….

I agree, just making the point that Fran is not a bad guy. He has done a lot for trying to bring back vocational education in the state.

Sandy Springs Parent

September 26th, 2012
4:20 pm

The teachers are to blame for the situation they have put themselves in Georgia voting Republican starting with Sonny, followed by Deal. Roy Barnes had mandatory student counts the districts had to be under. The districts had to cut the admin. fat and contracts to their buddies to meet it. My daughter had 17 kids when she started those were wonderfull days.

Anytime you look at a Private school they will guarantee you no more than 22 students or they might come back and say if you want lower tuition we can go to 25. Ussually the parents all will take the 22. But they know even with 25, their will be no, trouble makers, because even the Top Doc’s at St. Joe’s Kids get thrown out. Woodward (”aka Weedward” will be throwing alot more out next year out with its 2 strike drug police). So look out Riverwood, North Atlanta and Campbell for all the ones for Woodward that can’t make it through the drug test.

DeKalb Teacher

September 26th, 2012
4:36 pm

John,
Didn’t the GA Supreme Court more or less say that the current GA State Board’s power to approve charters was unconstitutional?

The amendment in November is fixing the state’s authority to approve charters … not adding an additional layer.

Dr. Monica Henson

September 26th, 2012
4:49 pm

Jezel posted, “Annie I am quite sure there are stats that say class size affects student achievement..just as you say there are stats to prove the contrary.”

Actually, there aren’t, unless the class is in the primary grades or for a specialized high-risk population, such as a sheltered English class for nonnative speakers.

Inman Parker is absolutely correct when he says, “As a long time educator I too like small classes too. However, that being said, there is NO evidence that, beyond the primary grades (Pre-K to 2), class size has any impact whatsoever on student achievement. It is a waste of taxpayer money to spend millions on reducing class size when there is no reason to do so.”

Anecdotal “evidence” such as that provided by Beatings will continue only serve to prove the point that teachers do not adjust their instructional methods and strategies when their class sizes go up or down–they continue to do what they’ve been doing, then bemoan a class size increase as the reason why student achievement suffers. All that the class size increase is doing is highlighting the existing weaknesses in the instructional framework–or strengths, if the class size goes up in a high-achieving class and student achievement continues to stay strong.

Teachers would be far better served with a lot of job-embedded professional development and support to teach smarter, not harder, rather than the incessant drumbeat for CSR in the face of decades of research demonstrating that it doesn’t work.

John Konop

September 26th, 2012
5:01 pm

Dekalb Teacher,

A very good question! The issue at hand is should the state be allowed to supersede local school boards that are elected. And the state board is appointed not elected. In Cherokee we have very good schools in Cherokee. Our board spoke and said no to the Charter and the voters agreed in our local election. The state still put in a charter school in our district and we have the highest SAT scores in the state. I also get the argument from people like Fran Miller that live in his district that schools are not as strong. Yet, it seems it should be a local issue unless the school system has real issues in my opinion. Or if the Charter school offers something that the district dose not have ie vocational, math/science, arts, school for blind……….

Finally as I have posted on numerous occasions, I do not think the bill has proper controls in it, to protect against abuses by private charter companies. I am not a fan of deals in which tax payers take substantially more risk than a private company. We have to many deals like this in which tax payers got left holding the bag.

Ron F.

September 26th, 2012
5:28 pm

“In 2000, Diane Ravitch stated on C-Span that 60% of students lack the environmental support systems, (home, neighborhood, family) that is needed to increase the quality outcome we are trying to achieve in public education.”

I’ve said many, many times here that while schools are an invaluable part of the change process, nothing will ultimately be successful until we address the myriad problems in the communities we serve. Even our affluent families are stressed and prone to dysfunction, although not as pervasisve as in poorer families. When communities come together in support of education, change occurs. Until then, all the schools, either tradition public or charter, will only be successful to a point.

DeKalb Teacher

September 26th, 2012
6:55 pm

John,
You are correct. The amendment is far from perfect. I’m currently trying to sift through all the rhetoric.

On that note, perhaps I can ask you the same question in a different way. I don’t understand what you mean by this amendment adds an additional layer. Since the GA Supreme Court has deemed the State Board’s power to approve charters unconstitutional, doesn’t this amendment just address the current situation?

I don’t see where an additional layer is added. It’s very tough to sift through all the rhetoric. You seem to know a lot regarding this subject. Please help.

DeKalb Teacher

September 26th, 2012
7:11 pm

John,
Case in point. Nancy Jester is my Board Of Education representative. She just posted a new essay The Myth Of Local Control

http://whatsupwiththat.nancyjester.com/2012/09/26/the-myth-of-local-control/

Georgia coach

September 26th, 2012
7:14 pm

To piggyback off of dr. Henson. Class size would have to be below 15 for any significant difference in achievement to occur

old teach

September 26th, 2012
7:41 pm

I disagree, Coach. To have the class engage in group activities, as well as having more of a chance for the teacher to answer individual questions, I have found that 24 is at the class size upper limit. Obviously, I have dealt with classes larger than that! But I could tell a difference.

Jezel

September 26th, 2012
7:48 pm

So Dr. Henson…you are saying that class size…student teacher ratios….make no difference? Where were you educated?

John Konop

September 26th, 2012
7:51 pm

Dek,

I am not a lawyer just a parent. But from what I understand is this bill gives the state the right to forM the state board within the Georgia constitution. The problem I have is that it seems that from what I have seen from some of the schools approved we need more oversisght. And when I press certain legislators I get the do not worry we will take care of it latter line, or that I am asking to much. When Florida loosen the standard the default rate doubled in Florida. BTW the national average is already 12 percent. As a tax payer I have heard the same story from both parties ie 500 million we lost on sole energy, 75 million on garbage ethanol conversion, 50 million on a rycycling plant………the common thread is tax payers taking way more risk than the prifate company.

John Konop

September 26th, 2012
7:53 pm

Sorry about typos

Jezel

September 26th, 2012
7:54 pm

Dr. Henson…I also have a doctorate.. in Educational Administration and Supervision.. and I do not agree with you.

After 30 years of teaching and coaching…I know first hand the importance of working with smaller groups.

John Konop

September 26th, 2012
7:59 pm

Dek,

I read the post, the problem is what area do you live in. The better school systems do not have the same issue, and that is why a one size fit all plan does not make sense to me. I think if you have a failed school problems in a district the state should be able to step in. But if you have districts like north Fulton, East Cobb, West Cobb, Cherokee……..it should be diferent rules. And it seems from what I have seen with Cherokee Charter they need more oversight and disclosure.

old fashioned

September 26th, 2012
8:50 pm

Want to fix education, get the feds and the State out of education. Return to local control. Throw the educators out of central offices and find the most successful business man/woman in the community and make them superintendent.

Oh, by the way, ban Ed.D’s.

bootney farnsworth

September 26th, 2012
8:57 pm

@ Fran

and your work week is….
lets see how much you make for the service you do and the time you actually put in

John Konop

September 26th, 2012
9:47 pm

Bootney,

Agree or not with Fran Miller the time he puts in would not even cover minimum wage.

Dr. Monica Henson

September 26th, 2012
10:11 pm

Jezel, it’s not a matter of opinion. It’s a matter of a research base consisting of several decades.

Would physicians argue their own opinions over what they “feel” is the effectiveness of treatments for disease? Or do they look objectively at what the research tells them is accurate?

This is one reason why the general public doesn’t treat education with respect commensurate to that accorded to the sciences, medicine, etc. Far too many educators don’t even bother to know what the research base in our field even says, much less adhere to it.

Ronin

September 27th, 2012
12:19 am

Dr. Jezel, with a Ph.D in Educational Administration and Supervision.. I can appreciate your views and opinions. Whist stated, you have a 30 year resume of teaching and coaching, does your school or district excel above Georgia state or national standards?

Further, I’ve reviewed, in recent months the educational mantra of Dr. Henson, who holds a PhD in Leadership education and works with an upstart Charter high school program.

The teacher selections the charter has made are worthy of review in a few years, to determine if their program can improve education standards vs. standard district schools.

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
6:18 am

Class SIze

Teachers may teach differently or certain instructional strategies may work better in small classes. For example, more work done in small groups might be possible. (Ehrenberg, Brewer, Gamoran, & Willms, 2001).

High school math teachers with small classes were found to engage with individual students and small groups more frequently than teachers with larger classes, possibly because they spend less time on classroom management than teachers in larger classes (Rice, 1999).

The reading and/or math gains students in small classes experience in the primary grades continue or are maintained more than five years later (Nye, Hedges, & Konstantopoulos, 2004; Nye, Hedges, & Konstantopoulos, 2001b).

Classes with no more than 15-18 students have been found to be the threshold class size for increasing student achievement in the early grades. (Ehrenberg, Brewer, Gamoran, & Willms, 2001).’

Two recent studies that show that class size matters, even in college. One report from the University of Richmond found that increasing class size to thirty students to 45 had a negative impact on the amount of critical and analytical thinking required in business classes, on the clarity of presentations, the effectiveness of teaching methods, the instructor’s ability to keep students interested, and the timeliness of feedback, among many other key factors of educational quality.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/class-size/7-class-size-myths—-and-the.html

The clearest result with respect to correlates of achievement is that average achievement
scores are higher in schools with smaller class sizes. This result, obtained from structural
equation modeling using both state assessment data and NAEP adjustments for between-state
variance in achievement, is consistent across grade levels
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2000/2000303.pdf

HS Math Teacher

September 27th, 2012
6:37 am

To ‘One Teacher’s Voice’:

“High school math teachers with small classes were found to engage with individual students and small groups more frequently than teachers with larger classes, possibly because they spend less time on classroom management than teachers in larger classes (Rice, 1999).”

This is obviously true. However, I’ll take 27 moderately well-behaved students in a class any day over 20 kids who are in and out of ISS, Alternative School, YDC, etc. I say that what matters most is who’s in the class; not just how many are in there.

Jezel

September 27th, 2012
6:40 am

Dr. Henson…your data is incorrect.

Jezel

September 27th, 2012
6:52 am

One teacher’s voice…thank you.

Dr. Henson I am interested in where you were educated. Those who speak in absolutes are usually educated at Bible colleges..not liberal arts universities.

It is generally understood that one researcher can form an opinion and generate statistics to back that opinion up. I seriously doubt that any teacher with experience would argue that class size has no impact on learning. It does not take statistics to figure this one out.

Jezel

September 27th, 2012
6:59 am

Ronin..I have worked in an inner city school, a vocational high school and in an affluent suburban high school. Some were above the standard…some were below. Two of the schools are in another state and one school is in Georgia.

bootney farnsworth

September 27th, 2012
7:35 am

@ john k

you may well be right. thing is, Fran has been throwing stones at us for so long, its time to remind him he lives in a glass house.

for example: the average educator doesn’t get a per deim, since the average eductor doesn’t get to travel. at GPC, most departments had 1 secretary serving at least 20 people. and how many part time workers in ANY business get an office, or even share one.

if Fran can launch salvo after salvo after ignorant salvo at us, then it only seems fair we return fire, and start asking him the same sorts of questions.

DeKalb Teacher

September 27th, 2012
9:01 am

John,
I’m trying to understand one point at a time. 9/26 @ 4:15 you said this amendment adds “another layer of government”. This is one of the more reoccurring counter points to charter schools.

Recently the GA Supreme Court effectively struck down the ability for the Georgia State Board to approve charters. This amendment addresses the constitutionality of the state to approve charters.

Nobody knows the counter points to this amendment like you do. Please help me understand!

How does this amendment add a layer of government?

Kira Willis

September 27th, 2012
9:51 am

Senator Millar and John K,

Teachers don’t get per diems, teachers don’t get to share secretaries, and many, if you include the time spent out of the classroom, teachers don’t get much more than minimum wage (coaches, club sponsors, band, chorus, orchestra teachers).

Educators are trying to make education better (most of us, any way). I ask that you not cast aspersions to the whole lot as you have in the past and listen to those of us who do care and who do want to make changes.

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
9:58 am

Kira,

Why not have a plan that takes both situation into consideration with proper protections for tax payers? If you have a district with at risk schools the state can step in and override the local community, combined with proper controls? Why do we have to hurt one community to help another?

Kira my wife was a teacher, I fully understand and appreciate the effort! The issue is how do we improve the system. As I have written I do see issues with current amendment and I will vote no unless the issues are cleaned up. But, my other point is just because I disagree with Fran Miller on this issue, it does not negate all the goof things he has done in my opinion. And I understand why his view is different than mine via area we live in. That is why I proposed the above compromise.

Kira Willis

September 27th, 2012
10:07 am

John, I agree, but having someone who is neither in education nor has ever been in education making educational policy is, in my humble opinion, downright silly.

Compromise is wonderful; how about hearing what the educators have to say and then come up with a compromise that will help our children? Kids are the reason for all of this, aren’t they?

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
10:08 am

Dek,

…… I’m trying to understand one point at a time. 9/26 @ 4:15 you said this amendment adds “another layer of government”. This is one of the more reoccurring counter points to charter schools…

From my understanding, the state board is paid about 3 percent for doing the due diligence and this is work that has already been done by the local school board. It would be hard to argue that this is not an extra layer doing redundant work.

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
10:10 am

sorry

….But, my other point is just because I disagree with Fran Miller on this issue, it does not negate all the goof things he has done in my opinion…

good not goof

C Jae of EAV

September 27th, 2012
10:40 am

@DeKalb Teacher – Thanks for link to Ms. Jesters editorial piece. I found it a surprisingly honest observation of the status-quo coming from an “insider”. Futher, I believe it provides an cogent perspective to be considered by all debating within themselves how best to answer the call at the ballot box relative to the Charter Amendment.

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
10:42 am

Kira,

……….. Compromise is wonderful; how about hearing what the educators have to say and then come up with a compromise that will help our children? Kids are the reason for all of this, aren’t they?…….

I have talked to numerous teachers, administrators, parents and students about this issue as well as other education issues. I happen to think the biggest issue is the curriculum is based on one size fit all rather than aptitude. The decline in test score are not in the 4 year college bound students it is the fact we now increased the amount kids taking the SAT by 60% in about the last 20 years. Our top 20% perform as well as any other places in the world within the margin of error. And in fact we now have increased the amount of kids prepared for college radically over the last 40 years.

The problem is that we have decreased opportunities for students better suited for vocational education. Rather ironic that we have 3 to 4 million job openings in that category. I get if you are in an underperforming district why a charter schools seems attractive. But I have said many times the real solution is aptitude based education like the top countries do, not one size fit all, teach to the test, 4 year college bound or you are out.

DeKalb Teacher

September 27th, 2012
11:36 am

John,
So, we should only have the county school boards approve charters?
Thanks !

DeKalb Teacher

September 27th, 2012
12:48 pm

Hey John,
Only county BOEs approve charters … check.

OK. Next point – Lack Of Oversight

What oversight do we have on traditional public schools that are missing from charter schools and this amendment?

BTW – This thread has become very popular with my colleagues.

Thanks.

Georgia Coach

September 27th, 2012
1:08 pm

Those of you attacking Dr. Henson for stating facts backed up by hundreds of peer reviewed research studies are demonstrating great ignorance.

Facts do not cease to exist just because you choose to ignore them.

DeKalb Inside Out

September 27th, 2012
1:43 pm

There are a number of myths regarding education that the facts do not support.

Myth 1 – Schools do not have enough money
Myth 2 – School can’t do much to overcome poverty
Myth 3 – Teachers are underpaid
Myth 4 – Smaller classes are better

These myths are ingrained. It’s next to impossible to discuss with groups of people.

Jezel

September 27th, 2012
3:28 pm

So Georgia Coach…the Richmond study is invalid?. And any study that proves that there is a relationship between class size and student achievement …is also invalid? Are these studies not based on fact?

I see no one attacking Dr. Henson. It would seem, however, that if a person is going to give a lecture on the topic…it is not inappropriate to ask where they were educated.

Prof

September 27th, 2012
3:39 pm

According to PR Newswire, online: “A graduate of Western Carolina University, Dr. Henson also holds a M.A. degree in School Administration from Seton Hall University, an Ed.D. degree in Educational Leadership from Nova Southeastern University, and is a graduate from the Principals Executive Program of the James B. Hunt Institute for Educational Leadership and Policy at the University of North Carolina. In 2000, Dr. Henson attained certification from the National Board for Professional Teaching Standards.”

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
4:57 pm

DOCTOR MONICA HENSON WROTE: “Inman Parker is absolutely correct when he says, “As a long time educator I too like small classes too. However, that being said, there is NO evidence that, beyond the primary grades (Pre-K to 2), class size has any impact whatsoever on student achievement.”

UNTIL NOW>>>>THE EVIDENCE BELOW DIDN’T EXIST<<<>>THERE’S MORE? ABRA-CA-DABRA!!!!
In a small lecture course, the instructor can challenge students to go beyond these lower-level cognitive skills. Class size influences the types of cognitive skills to which a student is exposed in any course of study.
Introductory Class Size and Student Performance in Intermediate Theory Courses
Henry J. Raimondo, Louis Esposito and Irving Gershenberg
The Journal of Economic Education Vol. 21, No. 4 (Autumn, 1990), pp. 369-381

WAIT>>>>IT CAN’T BE<<<<<<MORE EVIDENCE? OLLY OLLY OXEN FREE!!!
In contrast to many other studies, the authors find statistically significant evidence that small class size has a positive impact on student performance.
The Journal of Economic EducationVolume 35, Issue 4, 2004
Additional Evidence on the Relationship between Class Size and Student Performance

When someone has DR. in front of her name, her opinion often carries more weight than it often should.

Just because you are passionate and carry a title does not make you right. It just seems like you are wearing blinders, have been in administrative land too long, or are simply misinformed.

My sarcasm is over the top in this post, but seriously, I didn't need to crack the Enigma Code, to find The Lost Ark, or to enter Area 51 to find my material.

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
5:05 pm

@Dekalb Inside and Out

Myth-Your statements have validity because you say ‘myth’ in front of them.

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
5:07 pm

DOCTOR MONICA HENSON WROTE: “Inman Parker is absolutely correct when he says, “As a long time educator I too like small classes too. However, that being said, there is NO evidence that, beyond the primary grades (Pre-K to 2), class size has any impact whatsoever on student achievement.”

UNTIL NOW>>>>THE EVIDENCE BELOW DIDN’T EXIST<<<< (My previous post of EVIDENCE took about 45 minutes with a search engine while watching television. This took about 30 minutes because of trying to get the journal citations to paste.)

For some, evidence may feel like it's an attack if they are wrong, but it's more like civil discourse with factual rebuttal.

So get ready…for a few of you…this is going to boggle your mind!!!

SHAZAAM!!!!…
Contrary to studies that have used an average or an end-of-term class size measure and find no class-size effect, beginning classsize is found to be significant and negatively related to learning of economics, all else equal. In part, this is the result of students in larger classes being significantly more likely than students in smaller classes to withdraw from the course before taking the posttest.
William E. Becker, John R. Powers
Studentperformance, attrition, and classsize given missing student data
Economics of Education Review, Volume 20, Issue 4, August 2001, Pages 377–388

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
5:09 pm

DOCTOR MONICA HENSON WROTE: “Inman Parker is absolutely correct when he says, “As a long time educator I too like small classes too. However, that being said, there is NO evidence that, beyond the primary grades (Pre-K to 2), class size has any impact whatsoever on student achievement.”

UNTIL NOW…..THE EVIDENCE BELOW DIDN’T EXIST….. (My previous post of EVIDENCE took about 45 minutes with a search engine while watching television. This took about 30 minutes because of trying to get the journal citations to paste.)

For some, evidence may feel like it’s an attack if they are wrong, but it’s more like civil discourse with factual rebuttal.

So get ready…for a few of you…this is going to boggle your mind!!!

SHAZAAM!!!!…
Contrary to studies that have used an average or an end-of-term class size measure and find no class-size effect, beginning classsize is found to be significant and negatively related to learning of economics, all else equal. In part, this is the result of students in larger classes being significantly more likely than students in smaller classes to withdraw from the course before taking the posttest.
William E. Becker, John R. Powers
Student performance, attrition, and class size given missing student data
Economics of Education Review, Volume 20, Issue 4, August 2001, Pages 377–388

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
5:10 pm

PINCH YOURSELF….THERE’S MORE?…..ABRA-CA-DABRA!!!!
In a small lecture course, the instructor can challenge students to go beyond these lower-level cognitive skills. Class size influences the types of cognitive skills to which a student is exposed in any course of study.
Introductory Class Size and Student Performance in Intermediate Theory Courses
Henry J. Raimondo, Louis Esposito and Irving Gershenberg
The Journal of Economic Education Vol. 21, No. 4 (Autumn, 1990), pp. 369-381

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
5:12 pm

WAIT….IT CAN’T BE……MORE EVIDENCE? OLLY OLLY OXEN FREE!!!

In contrast to many other studies, the authors find statistically significant evidence that small class size has a positive impact on student performance.
The Journal of Economic EducationVolume 35, Issue 4, 2004
Additional Evidence on the Relationship between Class Size and Student Performance

When someone has DR. in front of her name, her opinion often carries more weight than it often should.

Just because you are passionate and carry a title does not make you right. It just seems like you are wearing blinders, have been in administrative land too long, or are simply misinformed.

My sarcasm is over the top in my posts, but seriously, I didn’t need to crack the Enigma Code, to find The Lost Ark, or to enter Area 51 to find my material.

jezel

September 27th, 2012
5:17 pm

Prof…very impressive credentials. So how does one so erudite make a statement… that there are no studies which prove that class size affects learning… beyond the primary grades?

“One teacher’s voice” gave the Richmond study as an example. A google of the subject would generate many more.

And.. if there were no studies at all…would not common sense tell you that people learn more as instruction is individualized ?

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
5:35 pm

@Georgia Coach

Instead of ignoring facts, I am looking them up and providing them for you.

Respond to the studies, educational journals and studies that I have provided after you read them.

Unlike many, take that extra step and read the information. You may change your mind, and if you don’t, at least you took the time to be more educated about the topic.

I have provided the links and/or the authors of scholarly articles.

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
6:45 pm

Dek,

If a school,system produces results why should the state get involved? Now if a school district has issues the state should have the right to get involved? What is wrong with this logic? Btw we already have system that tells us what districts are having problems.

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
7:17 pm

Dek,

In my opinion the following;

No board members should be able to be a consultant, owner and or work for vendors, charter mangement contracts…..Full dislusure if they had any prior affiliation. No board member should be able to be on the board if they revived any form compensation in the last 2 years from any material vendor.

Full dislusure of any office holder and or relatives with any afiliation with vendors providing services for the school.

No board member and or officeholder should have any interest in the proberty the school uses

Full disclosure of any officeholder relatives employed by the charter school

Board meeting should be listed 30 days in advance on a set day after 7 pm, not at 10 am on random days with short notice….

Any school,with more than 750 students with a private management company should be required to put up bonding to make sure that the school fulfills the school year

Full disclosure on ownership of proberty the school uses ie detailed list with names of the people with any affiliation

If the proberty has any ownership affiliation with the private management company it should be put up as security to pay back the government for any free tax payer dollars ie grants and management fess or expenses against the district eats via placing the kids back into school via failure.

Full disclosure of the contract between the private mangement company and the charter school.Once again a list of any cross affiliations….

Is this really asking to much, for protecting tax ?

Prof

September 27th, 2012
7:52 pm

@ One Teacher’s Voice. I almost hesitate to get involved here, since my Ph.D. is not in Education so I haven’t done any research on this particular question of the impact of class size on class learning. But I do know about up-to-date research, and the way that in any field research findings can become outdated. I note that the 3 sources you list are, to my way of thinking, rather old: 1990, 2001, and 2004. Perhaps more contemporary research shows other findings?

jezel

September 27th, 2012
8:32 pm

Prof….does one really need research to come to a conclusion that class size matters? Where were you educated…and in what? Maybe you should work on another degree because apparently you have not learned how to think.

jezel

September 27th, 2012
8:41 pm

And not one peep from Dr. Henson….will catch up with you on the next blog.

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
9:21 pm

Jazel,

Most teachers would tell you a class with students with the proper aptitude and proper behavior is a much bigger factor than class size within reason.

Prof

September 27th, 2012
9:26 pm

@ jezel. I think that all presuppositions should be tested, and that factual research is valuable. Nothing should be assumed to be true, in education or elsewhere. Surely data gathered from students in an earlier time-period when the educational system was different–as in 1990 and 2001–could show different things than more contemporary data.

But to answer your first question–yes. One shouldn’t assume that “truisms” are true, without evidence.

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
9:32 pm

Prof,

If class size was end all, than all large Univerties across the world are teaching wrong. Your first two years are spent in lecture halls with TA follow up. This has not hurt our best and brightest. What do you think since I am guessing this is your profession?

Prof

September 27th, 2012
9:56 pm

@ John Konop. This really depends on the field. Some beginning-level classes in the sciences, Law, Business, and others must be large (upwards of 200) because there are so many students who wish to take the class. In my own field, classes at the undergraduate level are “capped” at 35 or so because the smaller size is necessary to teach the material properly. “Seminars” that are capped at 12 are only given at the graduate level. Classes that require individualized attention from the professor, such as those in composition, obviously need to be small enough to permit this. Sometimes classes can be TOO small, which tends to inhibit class participation.

Of course, in today’s world of budget cuts, most USG schools are insisting that classes be filled pretty much to capacity to be allowed to run.

I think that your point is well-taken that in K-12 education there are other factors besides class size that should be taken into account in judging “success” of the class.

John Konop

September 27th, 2012
10:03 pm

Prof,

All your point make a lot sense as usual! One size fit all answers usually fail……..

Dr. Monica Henson

September 27th, 2012
10:38 pm

Here is just a smattering of the research base.

From the National School Boards Association:

We identified 19 studies that met our standards. Most of these addressed reduced class size programs in grades K-3. Indeed, most programs in the past 20 years have targeted these early grades, in part because earlier research (see, for example, Glass and Smith 1978), suggested that these are the optimal years for such programs, and in part because of the more recent and comprehensive evidence from Tennessee’s influential Project STAR (Student/Teacher Achievement Ratio). (For more information on Project STAR, visit http://www.heros-inc.org/star.htm.)

From this review of the research, we can scientifically document several important findings about reduced class size, which local school districts may find useful:

•Smaller classes IN THE EARLY GRADES [emphasis Monica's](K-3) can boost student academic achievement;
•A class size of no more than 18 students per teacher is required to produce the greatest benefits;
•A program spanning grades K-3 will produce more benefits than a program that reaches students in only one or two of the primary grades;
•Minority and low-income students show even greater gains when placed in small classes IN THE PRIMARY GRADES [emphasis Monica's];
•The experience and preparation of teachers is a critical factor in the success or failure of class size reduction programs;
•Reducing class size will have little effect without enough classrooms and well-qualified teachers; and
•Supports, such as professional development for teachers and a rigorous curriculum, enhance the effect of reduced class size on academic achievement.

From Robert Slavin (2010): Based on reviews by Glass, Cahen, Smith, and Filby (1982) and the Educational Research Service (1978), Cooper concludes that substantial reductions in class size can have important effects on low-achieving students IN THE EARLY GRADES [emphasis Monica's]…Even in studies that made such substantial reductions, achievement differences were slight, averaging only 13% of a standard deviation. Not until class size approaches one is there evidence of meaningful effects. Based on this and other evidence, it is suggested that Chapter 1 programs provide one-to-one tutoring in reading rather than providing small-group pullouts or reducing overall class size.

Hoxby’s (2000) analysis in The oxford Quarterly Journal of Econonics indicates that “class size does not have a statistically significant effect on student achievement…rul[ing] out even modest effects (2 to 4 percent of a standard deviation in scores for a 10 percent reduction in class size).”

Dr. Monica Henson

September 27th, 2012
10:39 pm

Enter your comments here

One Teacher's Voice

September 27th, 2012
11:50 pm

@Prof

All of the people on this blog could refer to a search engine to avoid making baseless comments. I, like anyone posting on here can search for “class size student achievement.” Both sides of the issue will come up, and with google personalizing searches these days, you will likely find what you are looking for (yes, grammar police…I used an Addisonian Termination).

It’s one thing to be biased, but it’s another to make ignorant or slanted statements of opinion sound like fact. Yes, research does exist that shows lower class sizes help students in levels above elementary school.

DR. Henson, decided to use her title, and when she makes statements, they carry more weight than say someone who simple goes by Coach, Mrs., etc.

Even you, by going with the username of Prof, suggest that you know more than the average citizen reading this board. It’s not a negative, but it has a burden of making claims with validity.

Instead of me giving more evidence, it would be more appropriate for those who think that evidence doesn’t exist which supports lowering class sizes do some searches.

However, although it’s late, here is what I found for the end of the night. These are definitely good right before bed.

Experimental Evidence on the Effect of Childhood Investments on Postsecondary Attainment and Degree Completion Susan Dynarski, Joshua Hyman and Diane Whitmore Schanzenbach October 16, 2011

The conclusions in this article actually support multiple references that I made earlier. It’s pretty interesting.

Gains and Gaps: Changing Inequality in U.S. College Entry and Completion
Social Inequality and Educational Disadvantage, Russel Sage, 2011

Dr. Monica Henson

September 27th, 2012
11:54 pm

I have been out of pocket for several hours due to (1) working full-time in a startup school with the FTE count date looming and having just passed the 500-student mark; (2) making arrangements for my mom to travel to be with my cousin in Tennessee, whose own parents are both deceased and who is nearing the final days of hospice care for terminal lunch cancer; (3) helping my husband deal with the apparent suicide today of one of his family members in North Carolina.

I hope to have time in a day or two to post further on both the research base and the larger issues of CSR, when I have sufficient time to do it justice. In the meantime, perhaps those questioning my credentials might favor my fellow readers and me with their real names, so all can Google them and pass judgment?

I’m confident that my education is sufficiently sound. I majored in English and French (not education) as an undergraduate on full academic scholarship. Master’s & doctorate from private, not-for-profit Tier 1 research universities, dissertation on training high school administrators on how to execute teacher evaluation instruments with fidelity in order to produce annual professional learning plans generated by teachers that would be linked to student outcomes measured by a variety of assessments.

Dr. Monica Henson

September 28th, 2012
12:02 am

I have been out of pocket for several hours due to (1) working full-time in a startup school with the FTE count date looming and having just passed the 500-student mark; (2) making arrangements for my mom to travel to be with my cousin in Tennessee, whose own parents are both deceased and who is nearing the final days of hospice care for terminal lunch cancer; (3) helping my husband deal with the apparent suicide today of one of his family members in North Carolina.

I hope to have time in a day or two to post further on both the research base and the larger issues of CSR, when I have sufficient time to do it justice. In the meantime, perhaps those questioning my credentials might favor my fellow readers and me with their real names, so all can Google them and pass judgment? I’m comfortable and confident that my education is sufficiently sound. I majored in English and French (not education) as an undergraduate on full academic scholarship. Master’s & doctorate from private, not-for-profit Tier 1 research universities, dissertation on training high school administrators on how to execute teacher evaluation instruments with fidelity in order to produce better quality professional learning plans generated by teachers.

I use my title in discussing educational issues because I earned it and take pride in what I did to earn it.

I post under my real name because I have the guts to do so.

I make assertions when I’ve done the work necessary to ascertain the facts and discern the truth. I’ve been called a lot of things, but I’m pretty sure that this is the first time anyone has judged me “ignorant.” ;) More to come when life events have been handled and I have sufficient time.

Dr. Monica Henson

September 28th, 2012
12:12 am

I use my title in discussing educational issues because I earned it and take pride in what I did to earn it.

I post under my real name because I have the guts to do so.

I make assertions when I’ve done the work necessary to ascertain the facts. I’ve been called a lot of things, but this is the first time anyone’s presumed to call me “ignorant.” ;)

I have been out of pocket for several hours because I have been making arrangements for my mother to travel to Tennessee to be with my cousin, who is in the final days of hospice care for terminal cancer, whose own parents are both deceased. We found out this afternoon that a member of my husband’s family passed away and may have been a suicide, and I have been helping him deal with that. Full-time work at school took a few hours as well–not all of us have time to spend all day posting on a blog.

There are reasons why there are a comparative very few studies showing some student achievement impact by CSR, and I’ll gladly discuss precisely what they are in a day or two when I have the time to do the discussion justice. I’ll be glad to provide a synopsis of my credentials & experience for the blog newcomers who don’t know me yet.

In the meantime, perhaps the anonymous insult-slingers might do the rest of us the favor of posting under their real names so we can Google them and pass judgment on their own?

Dr. Monica Henson

September 28th, 2012
12:15 am

I use my title in discussing educational issues because I earned it and take pride in what I did to earn it. I used to be a high school coach myself and proudly went by the title of “Coach” for several years.

I post under my real name because I have the guts to do so.

I make assertions when I’ve done the work necessary to ascertain the facts. I’ve been called a lot of things, but this is the first time anyone’s presumed to call me “ignorant.” ;)

I have been out of pocket since my earlier posts because I have been making arrangements for my mother to travel to Tennessee to be with my cousin, who is in the final days of hospice care for terminal cancer, whose own parents are both deceased. We found out this afternoon that a member of my husband’s family passed away and may have been a suicide, and I have been helping him deal with that. Full-time work at school took a few hours as well–not all of us have time to spend all day posting on a blog.

There are reasons why there are a comparative very few studies showing some student achievement impact by CSR, and I’ll gladly discuss precisely what they are in a day or two when I have the time to do the discussion justice. I’ll be glad to provide a synopsis of my credentials & experience for the blog newcomers who don’t know me yet.

In the meantime, perhaps the anonymous insult-slingers might do the rest of us the favor of posting under their real names so we can Google them and pass judgment on their own?

jezel

September 28th, 2012
6:28 am

Henson…we know there is data to support the claim that class size does not matter. That is not the issue here. Can you not understand that?

Have you forgotten that in your lecture to the blog you stated that there was no data to support the claim that student achievement was affected by class size….HELLO…

John Konop

September 28th, 2012
8:00 am

One teacher,

At issue is also not if it had an impact but how does rank via students in a class with multiple aptitude levels, disruption in the classroom via behavior……….

Michigan1942

September 28th, 2012
9:41 am

We need experts to help with the education, not legislators. We need discipline back in the classrooms.
People need to visit a classroom for a couple of days; most people just think they know.
The charter school amendment is about the state getting their hands on the money for the state commision.
Colleges need to make changes in the education majors.

Prof

September 28th, 2012
10:15 am

@Dr. Monica Henson. I am sorry that you had to return after dealing with such stressful life-events to a rather unpleasant blog-discussion. My very real sympathies to you.

@ One Teacher’s Voice, September 27th, 11:50 pm. “@Prof. All of the people on this blog could refer to a search engine to avoid making baseless comments….”

There is a great deal more to researching than simply using an online search engine. One significant skill that graduate school education provides is training in doing research: using subject databases and also in judging the reliability of the research sources. Just finding an isolated statement published in some academic journal online is not “research.” Google tells you nothing whatsoever about the reliability or even truth of the source it lists.

Prof

September 28th, 2012
10:24 am

P. S. @ One Teacher’s Voice. I use the moniker “Prof” to indicate that I am a faculty member with experience in teaching, but not a K-12 teacher. So I usually don’t presume to post on K-12 educational matters. I’ve been posting here on the nature of solid scholarly research, notice, not the specific issue of whether small class size is always beneficial to K-12 learning.

I also use “Prof” to indicate I have experience in higher education, since many of these topics relate to that.

jezel

September 28th, 2012
10:55 am

Prof…anytime one makes statements that are untrue…there could be unpleasant consequences.

We have gone from… NO data to support the effect of class size on student achievement.,,,to…the data is not reliable, the data is not scholarly, the data bases are not reliable, search engines cannot produce reliable studies. Might not the same be said of the studies that support the premise that class size does not affect student achievement.

Come on…either step up your game or go sit down some where. It is much easier if one thinks before one speaks. The longer this subject is kicked around in this blog…the lamer some of you appear.

Prof

September 28th, 2012
12:03 pm

Dr. Monica Henson

September 28th, 2012
1:22 pm

(I have multiple posts because my upload last night appeared not to go through. My apologies for that.)

What I have always stated is that there is no evidence to support that CSR alone, that is–IN AND OF ITSELF–produces increased student achievement. When I have the opportunity and the time, I will offer discussion in depth on this issue and address the legitimate questions that have been posed.

Whether I or any other academic on this blog appears “lame” to anonymous posters who are unable to produce sound arguments of their own is not and has never been my concern. The opinion of a dilettante is exactly that.

Dr. Monica Henson

September 28th, 2012
1:26 pm

Jezel, in the meantime, I have two family funerals to attend this weekend. When I do have time to respond to the questions, I don’t intend to answer any of yours in the future unless you address me appropriately. Calling someone by their last name, unless that’s their screen name, is rude and inappropriate. If you can’t abide by simple etiquette, perhaps you can go troll somewhere other than this venue.

jezel

September 28th, 2012
3:06 pm

My condolences…But….do not lecture me with false statements. I called your hand on it…you have not yet responded… other than to present more data that backs your claim. Also I see you have issues with your name. I do not see it as being rude or crude to call someone by their last name…another difference of opinion.

It is interesting that you would speak of etiquette while insulting me and others with false claims. You really need to tighten up or shut up.

Dr. Monica Henson

September 28th, 2012
3:37 pm

You haven’t called anyone’s hand on anything. You are clearly unaware of the extent of the scholarly research base and therefore call a well-substantiated claim “baseless” because you aren’t academically prepared enough to assess it with prior knowledge–which reveals you as a dilettante–is not an insult, simply a description that mirrors what Prof has summarized so well: “Just finding an isolated statement published in some academic journal online is not ‘research.’”

Coach, Prof, and I know what we’re talking about at a pretty deep level because we’ve studied it extensively in graduate school; what seems to you like a broad-brush baseless claim due to your lack of prior knowledge is to an experienced administrator and/or academic simply a summary of what is well-known to those at the graduate level in our field.

I’ll post a further discussion of the CSR issues and questions raised in a few days when I have the time to do it justice and make it understandable to the lay reader.

jezel

September 28th, 2012
4:08 pm

It is obvious that any one who does not agree with you…or your stats…is poorly educated or is not in the know. You have a lot to learn and it is not to be found in the books. I think the lay term that may apply here is… opinionated.

One Teacher's Voice

September 28th, 2012
5:56 pm

DOCTOR HENSON WAS ABSOLUTELY WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

Read it again….

Inman Parker is absolutely correct when he says, “As a long time educator I too like small classes too. However, that being said, there is NO evidence that, beyond the primary grades (Pre-K to 2), class size has any impact whatsoever on student achievement. It is a waste of taxpayer money to spend millions on reducing class size when there is no reason to do so.”

Anecdotal “evidence” such as that provided by Beatings will continue only serve to prove the point that teachers do not adjust their instructional methods and strategies when their class sizes go up or down–they continue to do what they’ve been doing

How about you read the plethora of references that I made that counter her false statements.

@Prof
You have got to be kidding me.
This is the most ridiculous statement.
“. Just finding an isolated statement published in some academic journal online is not “research.” Google tells you nothing whatsoever about the reliability or even truth of the source it lists.”

Good lord…I gave you an immense amount of REFERENCE POINTS, and if you are as educated as you claim that you are, surely you will read these articles to satisfy your intellectual curiosity….you do still have that don’t you.

I took the time to give you the reference points that a person with a doctorate and is the principal of a charter school said didn’t exist.

Everyone has access to Google, and if it can be found that easily on there, Dr. Henson, a layman, or even you can find it without much effort.

Quit being lazy and actually search for the reference points and read the material.

jezel

September 28th, 2012
7:08 pm

One teacher’s voice.

These three have some agenda and nobody is going to convince them otherwise. Heck…not one of them will admit that their statement…there is NO DATA that supports the claim that class size affects learning…is false. Rather than admit that they may be wrong…DOCTOR Henson gets on a high horse about how everyone is wrong unless they think as she does…..and that she is the expert in student achievement. So…there you have it.

What a waste of time this has been.

Prof

September 28th, 2012
7:34 pm

Googling is not researching. You sound like one of my freshmen. Good night.

jezel

September 28th, 2012
8:58 pm

For the record:

Since I have been called a new word…a dilettante…and I did have to look it up I felt the need to speak further. Been called a lot of names in four decades of teaching and coaching high school in two different states. But never that one.

In addition to winning more games at my high school than any one…I earned a B.A. degree in Government and International Studies from the University of South Carolina, interned 4 years in the General Assembly, earned a B.S. degree in Secondary Ed. and a Masters degree in Educational Administration and Supervision from Clemson University, earned a Specialist degree in Administration and Supervision and a Doctorate from the University of Tennessee.

But it looks like I will always be a dumb football coach who cannot teach….and now… a dilettante.

Lance

September 28th, 2012
11:48 pm

Unfortunately, Sonny Perdue brought in all his cronies and gave them jobs as advisors, policy advisors and agency heads. None of these people had any experience mind you – they just did a hell of a job nailing up yard signs or had served other candidates and their yard signs. Well, these “leaders” of the Perdue administration and policy advisors who could not form a coherent sentence go to work changing state government – especially education. They do not care how education was funding or how it was working….you ca nnot change it if you do not leave your on mark on it. So, they took a big pee on education – funding and policy – but, called it good! Well, most people today recognize that K-12 education is much worse off now than 10 years ago – when Rebublicans arrived. Teachers, you hated Roy Barnes, but how did those big Sonny payraises work for you? How about the loss of bonuses? Well, I am here to tell you the Deal administration is simply a continuation of the Perdue administration both in personnel and policy. Establish charter schools and continue to starve the public schools remain as the only real viable option for most families. In summary, Republicans have few ideas other than I do not like taxes,but when i collect some I am going to give people a cut for a vote. Nevermind every remaining public service – already cut for years – is expect to “just do more with less”. Leaders cannot be expected to adequately fund a program like education…..they expect high scores and good results but do not want to pay for it. It just might cut into their tax cut for reelection program. The behavior in Georgia is everybit as bad as Obama!

One Teacher's Voice

September 28th, 2012
11:48 pm

Jezel….

The argument of these three reminds me of an Orwellian experience.

One says that something doesn’t exist.

I show that it does.

One says that although it now does exist, it isn’t new enough.

I provide evidence that meets that new standard.

But it’s not valid enough.

If all can find what they didn’t bother to look for than it can’t be valid.

I know one has a doctorate, so she can’t possibly be wrong.

I know one goes by the name of Prof, so this person can’t possibly be wrong.

And one likes to throw out intellectual phraseology, so he can’t be wrong.

The facts are not facts.

The evidence is not evidence.

Research articles are no loger research articles when they show up on Google.

Any book or journal that shows up on Google is not real.

And the information that is given from sources that all can find must be non-information.

So for those three Squealers, I appreciate the doublespeak effort.

Facts presented by me may not be facts for those three esteemed people, but for some, educational journals and information presented by people who do actual research do carry merit.

So..you Squealers…we hear you…but your oinks of paradox are wearing us out, and I am tired of seeing the wallowing.

One Teacher's Voice

September 28th, 2012
11:57 pm

Hey Prof,

I tried to pick a novel that was a Freshmen read for you to reference.

It’s on Google so maybe it’s now a real read for your mentality. Or maybe because it was published in 1945, it doesn’t carry any thematic merit.

http://www.george-orwell.org/Animal_Farm/index.html

One Teacher's Voice

September 29th, 2012
12:00 am

Lance….

I regret my vote and the votes of my family members.

I really am sorry.