Are we pushing kids into the school-to-prison pipeline with suspensions?

We need more alternative schools for every grade level, including elementary, for students who, at present, need a more structured learning environment than the regular classroom. It needs to be used more quickly, instead of suspension, with the option for the kid to earn his/her way back to the regular class with better behavior. There are always reasons why kids behave the way they do, but it does not justify allowing them to destroy the learning environment in the regular classroom. There are social reasons why most criminals end up in prison, but we do not let that stop up from separating them from regular society until their behavior is altered. The kids who can control their behavior will have an incentive to do so; the kids who cannot need to be educated in an alternative setting where they can do no harm. Since prison is so expensive, we should provide more social services to these kids before they become criminals.

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It’s always got to be about race, doesn’t it? ALWAYS. Let’s just overlook the behavior, and go directly to the pigmentation of the skin. Good God Almighty. I don’t care if they are black, white, brown, green, polka-dotted, pink, purple, or feathered. If they are not on task at school, if they are breaking rules and disrupting the learning process for other students, then put them out the door. Period. All of this “give them more chances and just hug them and love them more” crap is not working. They already get more chances than they deserve, regardless of color. Do the crime, do the time.

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Unacceptable behavior should not be rewarded by being overlooked. Students whose behaviors disrupt the classroom should be placed where they do not deny others their education.

Students who are not behavior problems should not be around them and teachers should not have to deal with them, because all the administrators do is dump most of them back on the teacher after hearing their parents vent. Put the focus on the student whose behavior needs to be changed.

Alternative school settings and genuine counseling is needed for these students with long-term behavior issues. Very few actually get this second chance that might turn their life around. How could this approach be any cheaper for the rest of us. As a taxpayer, I don’t see the point of wasting public money, when a more likely approach exists to showing disruptive students how to learn to fit into society.

Along with Eddie G, I think race is overplayed as an excuse and the “economically disadvantaged” label is also another card that has worn thin. Most disruptive behavior in schools occurs because it has in some way become rewarded or enabled by the larger social group.

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“The typical response is that black students misbehave more but the research refutes that contention.”

Yeah, OK, I’d like to see that research. (Reminds of the claim that black drug dealers are jailed more often and longer than white ones. Could that have something to do with the fact that white dealers tend to try to hide their activities, while black ones take over street corners, and whole neighborhoods, openly?)

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I have an idea! After three episodes of disruptive behavior in school, lt’s implant a RFID microchip in the perpetrator’s skull so we can track him/her later. Then after a crime is committed, we track those microchips to see if any were at the crime scene. Straight to jail! (of course, with our justice system, if they committed a home invasion, they would probably sentence them to one month… on probation!)

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The sad truth is children are acting the way the are allowed to act at home. I would rather think the schools are showing the students early that behavior will induce a reaction. Bad behavior results in segregation from society. As a child that is a suspension as an adult, that is jail. Unfortunately just another example where schools are forced to play the role of parent.

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This combined with drug laws is a major contributor to the increase in poor people. We need to treat mental and drug issues as a health problem not as criminals. Today a person has an mental health episode and or drug issue and instead of treating the problem we put them in jail, throw them out of school and they now have a criminal record. And this is especially hard on lower income people. Would you tell a person with a broken arm to suck it up and not treat the health issue? Would you punish the person for not being able to use their broken arm?

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According to a new analysis of data from the Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights.
^
That sentence says it all. You don’t think they’re looking for something to justify their office.

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“We” are not pushing kids into school to prison pipeline! The irresponsible, unqualified to cook french fries, non-caring parents are.

This being the case we are going to have a masssive increase in the prison population so school funding should be diverted to build bigger, more dreadful prisons.

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RFID isn’t the same as radio-tracking.

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“For years I’ve bought a certain publication at the gas station up the street that contains fresh mug shots of those recently arrested. ”

Why are you buying garbage like that? And I’ll kindly remind you that arrest does not guarantee guilt or conviction.

Not sure why some people like contributing to that kind of rag. That contributes nothing positive.

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You guys are too funny! You have too many problems and concerns. I suggest you see a psychiatrist and take a pill. Or build a school for each child with a different teacher for each subject.

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I never understood the point of suspension. Almost like the kids were being rewarded. Instead, heavier use of Alternative School and/or After School Detension should be used.

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“Every day, we are seeing more and more situations where children are sent out of school for random and capricious offenses…”

“There is no doubt that a disruptive child in the class makes the job of the teacher more difficult and makes it more difficult for the students trying to learn….”

Since when have belligerence, verbal abuse and even violence been deemed just “random and capricious” acts? Teachers are not trained, nor should they be trained, to handle out of control, disruptive students, PERIOD. They are in schools to teach. Get those students into alternative schools, quickly.

Quit wringing hands and making excuses – poverty, bad parenting, blah, blah, blah. These conditions have been around for YEARS. Our crazy, mixed up pervissive society has led to this epidemic. For G-d’s sake – its time for the system to actually take back the classrooms.

Two strikes (unless violence is involved) and off to alternative schools – no matter the age – run by professionals who are trained dealing with anti-social behaviors. If the students show improvement, then the next year they can go back to their home schools.

Not matter what, though, STOP making excuses for behaviors that hinder the schoolroom environment.

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Pretty soon we’ll have more alternative schools than regular schools if these trends continue.

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Last year, the news reported on a school where EVERYONE who violated dress code the first week was suspended for a day. At the end of the year, those who stayed out of trouble had the suspension expunged. I thought this was a great idea. The students knew that the rules were enforced and if they said something, they were prepared to enforce it.

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One disruptive kid disrupts the education of all the other kids. Teachers can’t teach and deal with a trouble maker at the same time. However, I don’t think suspension is the answer. Send them to some other room where they have to sit and be quiet and read until they can behave. The only thing suspension does is guarantee they’re not going to get an education.

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“The school-to-prison pipeline” – what a bunch of hooey. Try the “chaotic-undisciplined-impoverished-single-mother-home to prison pipeline”.

The most helpful/honest sentence in the above article is buried towards the end:
“Mood swings in her high schools students often reflected personal or family struggles.”

Higher school suspension rates are an symptom, not a cause.

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Where will the money come from to fund these “alternative schools”? At last check, the state of GA was broke, teachers furlough or let go!! The student ratio is less than the 34:1 that is at most high schools. It cost twice as much to education at student at an alternative school. Although expensive, not as expensive as those for profit prison that charge $55/day or about 22,000/year.

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Government schools already ARE prisons. Why should we be at all surprised?

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I suspended a lot of people when I was an administrator but it was never for “minor offenses.”

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Assuming that kids go to prison later because they were suspended in school is a causal fallacy. Kids who break the rules and get suspended are more likely to become adults who break the law and end up behind bars. Bad parenting and poor choices are the root cause of both. You can’t blame schools for trying to enforce the rules and protect good kids from disruptive, dangerous ones.

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I couldn’t agree more that we suspend kids for the wrong reasons! Keeping kids out of school for truancy is not a punishment; it is exactly what most truant kids want!
I am a teacher, and I have a so-called “Gifted” son who has been suspended several times due to minor infractions, or bad behavior that is being reinforced by keeping him out. There has to be a better way, especially for those kids who are not behaving badly; they are simply not being completely compliant.

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“I think it would be very interesting to see what the study considers a “minor infraction.””

Probably assaulting the teacher.

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I would support the idea of a alternative school for repeat offenders. But I’m guessing we would then run into “separate but equal” education quality issues and ACLU would soon be involved.

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How about this – for disruptive discipline problems, send their PARENTS to jail (if they aren’t already there)!

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When I was in school we were taught, school is just a stepping stone for life in the real world and there are rules that must be follow. The commentary says minorities are being suspended for non-violent infraction. The solution is quite simple, don’t skip school and you won’t be suspended, adhered to the dress-code and you won’t be suspended, use appropriate language and you won’t be suspended and finally be respectful and recognize the teacher is in charge and you won’t get suspended. If this happen in the real world how long do you think one would be employed. When does the student take responsibility for his or her behavior, enough of the race card it has been beaten to death. We should worry more about the students who are there to learn, they suffer when the classroom is being held hostage by unruly students as well.

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There are no programs that make as much of a difference as having a father in the home. As long as the illegitimate rate among African Americans is 75%+, there will be absolutely no change in the disruptive behavior in schools

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did the civil rights project bother to check and see if these kids were actually causing trouble?

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I agree with the posters who lay some responsiblity at the feet of parents, but the fact is that blaming parents doesn’t solve the issue. The solutions, as far as how schools deal with it inside the school environment during the school day, are complex, but I’ll simplify them for the sake of discussion.

There is in this country a tremendous disconnect between school personnel, who are middle-class people that share similar values (regardless of race or ethnicity) and expect certain behaviors, and many (sometimes most, depending on the district’s demographics) families. The sad fact is that children frequently come to school without having been taught the behavioral norms that teachers expect them to conform to. This is the crux of the dilemma.

The dilemma inside the schoolhouse is exacerbated by two realities: (1) administrators generally do not enforce the disciplinary code with sufficient consistency, and (2) teachers generally do not take sufficient time to establish classroom processes & procedures and then TEACH THEM, reteaching from time to time if necessary, to the kids.

There are some teachers who are able to reach every student, or nearly every student, no matter how poorly behaved or uncooperative some students are for other teachers in the same school building. This fact is evidence that teachers do in fact have the capability of dealing with problem students without constantly kicking them out of class or resorting to shipping them all off to alternative schools.

Alternative education is designed for children who truly cannot cope with a traditional classroom environment due to emotional/behavioral disorders, severe abuse that has impacted their ability to be in an environment with large numbers of other kids, or other substantially limiting factors. It is not designed to be a warehouse to contain all the potential disruptiveness that makes a regular education classrom challenging to manage. There are many, many strategies that many regular education teachers could use to handle chronic minor disruptions, but they simply won’t–they’d rather send the kid somewhere else. That’s a huge problem in public education. Administrators have to understand this and HELP those teachers learn how to manage their classrooms more effectively, not just send the disrupters back and give the teachers no support. But until most administrators are themselves accomplished teachers who knew how to manage challenging students effectively in the classroom, don’t look for it to happen on a large scale. You can’t teach someone else what you don’t know yourself.

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Well, well, well, look at what Dana the former Mouth Organ at DOE says about the Maryland proposals to reduce out of school suspensions:

We have serious concerns about a policy that would limit out-of-school suspensions to only the most serious, violent offenses,” said Dana Tofig, a Montgomery spokesman. “Some offenses, while not violent by definition, can create an unsafe, even threatening, environment for the staff and students of a school. It is important to remember … there are victims that deserve to have their rights protected. A one-size-fits-all approach will not work.”

Why do I get the feeling he found THAT more palatable than anything Kathy Cox asked him to say about “cut scores” on the CRCT? Perhaps because there is a certain TRUTHFULNESS to the above statement that didn’t exist in the discussion on cut scores?

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Bootney-all the better if they are since disrupting the transmission of knowledge is the purpose of the “standards for teaching and learning” and as President Obama has now announced several times, including in last week’s acceptance, that the real purpose for what is being sold as the Common Core.

http://www.invisibleserfscollar.com/didnt-the-president-just-admit-ccssi-was-a-ruse-to-change-classroom-interactions/ is the post I wrote to describe the significance of what he admitted and what Best Practice really means and how it really does go back to the work he did with Bill Ayers in Chicago.

IIRC you are with the USG at Perimeter College. Part of the Common Core assault on all education, P-20, has to do with reorganizing higher ed away from the transmission of knowledge. Apparently USG announced it reorganizing consistent with Lumina’s Diploma Qualifications Profile back in November 2011.

They are going to destroy everything that works in the USG and destroy the validity of anyone’s degree if all of this is not understood accurately and soon. Giving SACS more power as the Ga legislature has done merely makes the problem worse because they are a primary source of the cultural poison. I call them the enforcer for John Dewey’s vision of using education to push a political, economic, and social transformation of the US. Stealthily because the schemers do via changing mindsets and at our expense.

Unfortunately the Reconstructionist vision is what drives too many district supers and principals and the accreditors today. And hardly anyone seems to know. It’s about to be too late.

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in the filter? really?
for that?

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Dr. Monica Henson

September 11th, 2012
1:02 pm

Thanks for the “simplification” and attempted brainwashing.

NEXT!

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Why not go back to the old system of having a conduct grade? If you mouth off, your grade gets lowered, but you stay in class. Conduct grade should be calculated into the GPA, and there should be opportunities for raising it (perhaps volunteering or going a certain amount of time without another infraction).

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“There are many, many strategies that many regular education teachers could use to handle chronic minor disruptions”

Yes there are. But at what point do we ADMIT to ourselves that the child who behaves is losing out because of the time, effort, and energy it takes to “handle” the chronic disrupter?

Doesn’t the child who “chronically” makes good behavior choices ALSO have the right to be taught in “the least restrictive environment”?

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The problem here is that parents no longer hold their children accountable for misbehaving! So now the schools have to. There has to be a smarter way to discipline the students!

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Beverly Fraud posted “at what point do we ADMIT to ourselves that the child who behaves is losing out because of the time, effort, and energy it takes to “handle” the chronic disrupter?”

I am of the firm conviction that if EVERY teacher of that student reports the same behaviors occurring consistently, then it makes sense to look at a removal option.

How do you explain the phenomenon of the so-called chronic troublemaker who has one or more classes where s/he is working on grade level without disrupting others? Those are the majority of disruptive kids I’ve worked with in traditional schools–about 80% of “chronic” troublemakers behave that way with some teachers but not others. That’s not a kid problem–it’s a teacher problem.

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Reproductive irresponsibility, not stupid and effete PubEd disciplinary policies, is the prime cause of the full “school-to-prison pipeline.”

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By the way, when I discussed this with my administrator, I was marked down on my evaluation. I was punished because I sought out the help in dealing with a behavior problem.

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@Mortimer Collins – It would seem that “Zero Tolerance” polices place a high degree of discretion into the hands of school adminstrators. While I would believe such policies have their place, many adminstrators apply them in a short sighted mannner than only serves to speed a students entry into the criminal justice system. No knocking “Zero Tolerance” approaches just suggesting that professional development is in order such that adminstrators understand how to effectively wield the authority they hold rather simply react in a cookie cutter manner with limited forethought. All that to say IMHO, there are some policies that lean in the direction of pushing kids toward the criminal justice system explictly or implictly.

@Teacher & Mom – Here’s my experience with alternative schools (particularly those outsourced to the dreded for-profit mgmt companies who also bid to run start-up charter schools), they stunt academic growth and become dumping grounds for local districts seekings to improve their test scores. In short I’m hestiant to push for more “alternative schools” absent a close examination of what’s already on the landscape and what value they add to local districts.

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As I read this article, I leaned toward Dove’s side by addressing the undelying problem. First let me say that there need to be some strict discipline guidelines in place and enforced. No more slaps on the wrist. Because those that are being slapped are now society’s nightmares. If any of the schools or systems reported their stats correctly you will see that this is across racial, gender and economic lines. So we can stop the racial calls now. Some children are raised entitled, disrespectul and by dysfunctional adults. They need to be dealt with. Children today are so entitled and most have problems beyond what any of us faced growing up. But, a trip to the woodshed never hurt me or any of my 9 siblings either.

Teachers are not social workers nor punching dummy’s but they do see the problem first hand. They see the kids who come with all the gadgets along with the ‘not my child’ parents. They see the young mom of the teen who is still trying to be young and not the adult or parent. They also see the hungry ones, the ones without proper clothing, the abused. But, teachers have to go through the administration which nine times out of ten hands out slaps on the wrist and does not deal with the problem. Academic counselors are not equipped always to deal with these kids. Adminisrtation, both in school and at the central office, need to formulate plans. Suspending them and then allowing them back in school without an agressive plan to change their behavior and get on track with their studies is failing. Alternative schools, where they come and go without supervision, lack of discipline, no plan to change, are another failing source.

If the administration put a plan in effect that would stifle the parents wages or put them in jail, then the outcry would be for a change in discipline.

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Question for Ms. Dove. Is student discipline better in places where teachers (anonymously to protect against retaliation) self report that there is full administrative support in matters of discipline?

If so, why not promote policies that lead to teachers self reporting full administrative support in matters of discipline? That is if you REALLY want to avoid the so-called “School to prison pipeline.”

Or can we not do this because that supports the teacher, instead of BLAMES the teacher?

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Do away with compulsory schooling, and the problem will solve itself.

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Ms. Henson: “How do you explain the phenomenon of the so-called chronic troublemaker who has one or more classes where s/he is working on grade level without disrupting others?”

They enjoy the class and they are on grade level? They were socially promoted to the point they come into a class 5 years behind and take it out on the class?

Ms. Henson: “That’s not a kid problem–it’s a teacher problem.”

Actually, it’s an administration problem. Changing of grades and socially promoting them until they have no chance to catch up. Then they misbehave in the class that they were socially promoted while behaving in other classes. Being an administrator, you already knew that.

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Another Math Teacher

September 11th, 2012
3:27 pm
That is how you get 20 year old football/basketball/baseball players! Then they get a scholarship to a college even if it is a small college. Then they become teachers.

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“Actually, it’s an administration problem. Changing of grades and socially promoting them until they have no chance to catch up.”

Thank you, Another Math Teacher! Finally, someone who sees and tells the truth!

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Dr. Henson is, as usual, 100% correct. Many times there is more of a crisis in class management rather than a problem with students. Most students are manageable if the teacher has a good bag of tricks (strategies) to facilitate positive behavior. If you have a principal with a spine, then the really difficult students can usually be managed, too.

As a 20 year veteran teacher and current principal, I would say the ability to engage students solves much of the problem.

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The problem is in the whole word that a certain section of these children and a certain type of music made it about the word “disrespect”. I told my 17 year old that she is still a child, and to shut up and stop using that word, stop making claims that she is being “disrespected”. All it and the anger that she was whipping her self into over where going to end her self up in jail or prison. Is that what she wanted with her life. She was acting like a “Ghetto Girl”. We are not “Ghetto”, we are not “Trailer trash”. No one can “disrespect” you. You have to let things go or you are going to live with anger, and violence. That is why their is so much unnecessary violence and killing all over some ridiculous theme that this under 30 generation has come up with that someone is “Disrespecting” them. I have tried to tell her that is life. You have to love your self, ignore the words and actions of others. You are beautiful, you are smart, people are always jealeous. They always have to put someone down to make them feel as though they are better.

The ones that have played into this teenage “angst” the most have been the over promoted minority admistrators. Is it because they have not been exposed to the good liberal arts education at the finer universities? Is it that they are the second rate school graduates?

Just at Campbell High School alone, the former Supt. Pulls the white Principal who the Black, Latino and White Students and parents alike loved. Puts in Grant Rivera, the fake Hispanic, who the Hispanic kids laugh at when he can’t speak in Spanish correctly, and insists on saying the announcements himself even though the Hispanic Baseball Pitcher volunteers. The first day he comes in and announces that anyone out of dress policy will have to wear the school issued sweat pants he has purchased ( with school funds). Then mostly girls are targeted as Grant goes beyond Cobb County policy, and says that girl skirts or shorts must be at or below the knee. Yet boys with sagging pants meerly grab them when they see and administrator. I sent him an e-mail would you really prefer that our girls just wear a burka, your policy seems that way. My self and other parents asked him why don’t you just issue a uniform policy, as we know from past experience and friends whose Students go to Woodward, Marist, St. Puis, ect. the students actually enjoy wearing their uniforms and it is alot less expensive. He also did away with all the cultural events, the Latino festival, all the pep rallies. Basically he drained the life out of the school. Then he was violating the the fire code by locking students in as soon as school was over, while they were at practice and tutoring, by ordering teachers to pad lock and chain fire doors. Then he tried to protect the Marietta AP son with the Rape Charge by keeping it quite. Finally after two awful years, firing the best teachers only to bring on his pets from his last school. The school only made AYP after Summer School ( what a joke). Now the folks at Westlake in Fulton County are dealing with him and the rampant violance at his school.

Then you thought it couldn’t get it worse, and Olde Fred, while a dead beat Supt. promote’s Dr. Iris Denise Magee the former failing Campbell Middle School principal to be the High School Principal. She brings along one of her Sister’s with her Ms. Kristlee ?( a large dark black woman with a whistle around her neck). These two numbsculls decide to reduce the change time between classes from 7 minutes to 5 minutes. Then after Christmas break in Febrary. They decide to do hall sweeps and enforce the 5 minutes change time. It was already impossible to get from one end of the 2200 student spread out school to the other. In 4 years my child has never used her looker or been able to use the restroom. There is simply no time during the time change. The ridiculous AP would be out blowing her whistle like they were in kindergarten. Then they send home that anyone caught late changing classes would be required to serve Saturday in school suspension the following Saturday. They had rounded up over 200 kids the first day, these included IB kids. Guess what was Scheduled for the that Saturday, the SAT. I went in to talk to Denise with the mail order Ed doctorate, since she won’t claim her college on the school site, it must be mail order. She says I didn’t know that. I said how didn’t you know that, your school is one of the testing sites for the SAT and for the ACT. As I am talking to her AP whistle blower walks buy me, with the whistle around her neck. I said don’t even think of giving my daughter a citation for being late for class and sentancing her to Saturday School, because she has a heart problem. You would not want her to pass out and die running to class now would you. I also reminded her that my daughter had a 504 on file with this and other medical condition. I had also told her the kids were all upset about getting the Saturday School, because if they didn’t show up they were then going to get 3 -10 day of out of school suspension and this would screw them up on getting into college. They had were also bringing in drug dogs too. Complete over kill. There were pages and pages of complaints on the Vinings Patch. It appears that Hinjosa gave her a couple of options. But one thing is for sure, the Sister with the Whistle is gone, gone , gone! The 5 min. change of periods has been moved back up to 7 minutes. All of the Assistant Principals are White. I think that Hinjosa realizes that you must hire on merit, not the color of ones skin or their Soriety or Fraternity. Unfortunately, Denise Magee still can not speak proinper English and avoids answering parents questions in meetings, no matter what race the parent is. So hopefully she will be in Hinjosa’s next round of bad Principal’s to go.

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Seriously??? Everyone know s NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND means not child left out of school long enough that is causing problems!

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If we cannot find a way to separate the disruptive students from those who want to learn, we will end up with vouchers where parents who care will try to separate their well behaved students from children from homes where parents do not care enough to discipline. If we do not come up with a solution to remove disruptive students from regular classrooms, disruptive students will be all that are left in regular classrooms. Charter schools, private schools and vouchers will be the solution good parents use to make sure their children are educated. If we care about troubled students, we better find a way to alter THEIR behavior, not alter public schools to tolerate their unacceptable behavior. You cannot make good parents keep their kids in an unsafe and unruly public school system. They will leave.

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Longtime educator @ 7:11’s post makes a lot of sense to me.

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Fred in Cobb county even got rid of the Alternative school and replaced it with an on-line school. Run by a Private Company. Now if that wasn’t a road to sucess. Not!!

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I’m sorry but everything is not always these kids fault. I have seen so many teachers being extremely rude and disrespectful to students. I’ve seen teachers yell, scream, get all in students faces, put them out of class into the hallway for no valid reason. Which is against school policy by the way. I’ve seen admistators lie and set kids up. Myself remember being a student and listening to the teacher lying to my parent about what happened. But as because the teacher said it admistration always go with the teacher. Why are parents not given the teacher code of conduct book. It exsist.

Children are people too. Many teachers make these kids angry by they way they treat them. And almost all of the time the parents don’t know that the teachers are doing this. If you show and treat students with respect you might get a better turn out. For many students If they know you respect them they will respect you back.

It’s sad to say but it is the Black schools with the Black teachers who are doing this to our Black kids where most of this is going on. Yet so many Black people died so Black people could learn to read and write.

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Inmate #1: Whatchu in for?

Inmate #2: Murder

#1: Why you kill someone?

#2: Well, it all started when I got suspended in the 7th grade…..

… and the politically correct bleeding hearts actually believe that story….

Incredible.

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What are the school councilor’s for? everybody has nothing but complaints and bad things to say about students. Give a real solution. My son went to Princton Elemetary when they 1st opened. He was in the 6th grade. There is a male teacher there (I forget his name but he’s still there). He got the school to allow him to do a all boys class. Every Wednesday The boys had to dress up. It could be a suit or dress shirt and tie. His reasoning for that was to break them away from jeans and tshirts. The 1st week the boys grumbled and didn’t want to dress up and most didn’t. By the 3rd week all boys were dressing up in suits and dress shoes. I remember my son begging me to buy him more suits. The boys had little disaplain problem. Their grades inproved and felt proud of themselves. Studies show that students learn better in single sex classrooms and have less social problems.

All this talk who is willing to dedicate their time to show these kids the way. Kids have to be taught and show the way. They need people to listen to them sometime. Children are people and have feelings too. Adults are to quick to dismiss them because they are kids. Whose talking to them? It’s not always the parent who can do that. We live in stressful times. Many parents work all the time to keep a roof and food on the table. Kids talk more feely to an adult they can trust before they do their parents.

Who is willing to give time for free and teach them how to go from boys to men and girls to women?

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Robert, your comment reminded me of what I’ve been thinking as I made my way through all these posts. In order to keep kids in their seats, a teacher has to keep telling them to stay in their seats. If that doesn’t work, there has to be an administrator who will take it to the next step. That administrator then has to be willing to get the parents involved. Then the parents have to get in the act, and finally the student. Everyone has a stake in what is going on and needs to understand this. That is the definition of community (or village). That is also the definition of vigilance and hard work.

The high number of suspensions in some school districts strongly suggests that there is no sense of community. If I were a principal, the first thing I would do is make parent involvement mandatory. Opening the school one or two Saturdays a month and getting parents, teachers, administrator, and students together doing something is also a great and inexpensive way to build community and accountability. I would also find ways to shine a bright light on who was and who was not pulling their weight.

As for separate schools for misbahaved children, that is an atrocious idea. It sickens me to my very soul to see how many people advocate that. We have at least one of those in DeKalb County. I used to watch those kids leave school in the afternoon. They knew the community had given up on them, and I suspected that most of them felt betrayed. But they were teens, too proud to admit that. But I doubted they would ever forget it. Some might use it as motivation, but most would probably use it a crutch.

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Redweather – did you hear the story about the administrator who tried and tried to get in contact with a parent about a student, failing, and then letting the police take the student after the school closed? The parent said she had turned off her cell phone to save minutes. How would the school have gotten in touch with her if her son had been hurt or killed? Most administrators will tell you they try to contact the parent(s) but most parents either don’t care or they go to the other extreme and come down to the school ranting and raving that “their perfect angel” could not have done what 40 people saw him do.

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“The law says you have to give them an adequate education.”
There lies the root of the problem. Government intervention! Make school voluntary. Let the one who do not want to attend school get a GED.

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These studies are always the same. The PROBLEM is school teachers/administrators don’t want to deal with parents. I understand that, but when you allow a student to disrupt the class you ARE hurting everyone else in that class. There are many reasons for disruptions, but the very first thing a school system needs to do is make it very clear what WILL happen if you disrupt class (for any reason) and then follow through with the removal of the student after 1 warning. The question becomes, where do you take the child. Alternative schools should not be just about children with bad behavior being controlled. They should address the REASON. Some have personal problems, some have medical/psychological problems, some disabled children have a thing called behavior disorder. They should be kept in school, somewhere, and a lot of students don’t want to go to in-school suspension. I am one of those parents who notified the school – every year – they had better not put their hands on my child. I also told my children – every year – they had better not behave badly or I would come to school and handle it myself. You see, no one should “assault” a child and it NEVER has made a difference in a child who cared whether or not they got in trouble. If the student and their parents cared – it worked. If they had the “beat them into submission” way of thinking it just made the student angry and eventually wanting to get even. You don’t teach non violence with violence. You can’t teach a classroom of students without order. You can’t control parents or students if they don’t want to be controlled and they must be removed. Generally, students with behavior problems are grouped with students who are called slow learners, because the parents of the other students will raise the roof. We have become a society where we are permissive in K-12 and then the REAL world puts the student in JAIL. They do not learn that here in the real world no one has to tolerate what teachers have to put up with. They behave the way they did in school and are surprised when anger issues, behavior disorder, low self esteem, and on and on, are not excuses for criminal behavior.

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50 percent of all incarcerated individuals in the state of Georgia have never seen or have no idea who their father is. School behavior and incarceration begins and ends with the breakdown of the family. 2 out of every 3 black children are born out of wedlock. 1 out of every 2 caucasion. States can keep pouring money into the school and penal systems but until morality changes you are wasting time, money, and lives. Children now receive their lessons from video games, the street, and immoral movies. The lessons learned from parents are a thing of the past. The role models now are the thugs depicted on rap videos.

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Students can just about get away with murder in most schools before anything is done. I watched children throw chairs, cuss out teachers, and hurt classmates and no punishment was received. This is not about the color of one’s skin, but the actions one has in the school and classroom.

Alternative schools are needed, as no child should be able to disrupt the education of another child. Right now schools are in denial that this behavior is as bad as it truly is in many schools. It’s easier to brush it under the rug, than deal with it head on. Principals who do want to do something to improve the school environment are often punished and taken out of their school.

Those that want to say people addicted to drugs should not be punished by jail and should receive treatment. I guess you’ve never had a person with a drug problem in your family or that of a family close to you. I’ve had both, and it wasn’t until the offender who was put in jail for the second or third time, after being sent to rehab several times, did they want to get clean and sober. Being addicted to drugs and the horrible behaviors exhibited by some in school are not the same and should not be lumped together.

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teacher reader : “Right now schools are in denial that this behavior is as bad as it truly is in many schools.”

I think you mean certain administrators are in denial. The teachers know. You can read posts in this very thread from administrators that are in denial.

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YES. This is ‘A” problem but not “the” problem. Sometimes we have a very convoluted approach to education. Our expectations are unrealistic. We concentract on High Math, science and football. None of these are likely to sustain the student after high school. All too many students know that what they are being force fed will be of no value to them in real life. Then if they are not enjoying school, or if they give up because they do not understand it. Add in that their parent(s) also don’t understand it. Then , they are out of school and wandering aimlessly about.

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All of mthis talk about putting disruptive students into alternative training so that the few rotten apples don’t spoil the bunch are absolutely correct in the most pragmatic way. However, the results would become a political hot potato. Why? Because of that little fact that nobody wants to talk about (which is only making it worse). Like it or not, the alternative schools would look a LOT like we were implementing segregation all over again.

This would bring a lot more than just the Jesse and Al show. After all, if Obama had kids who were disruptive in school, they’d look like……………… well, you know the rest.

So forget it. As badly as we need to revisit “Reform Schools” it is absolutely NOT going to happen because we would rather pretend the real problem does not exist. Better to just kick the can down the road until it fixes itself.
Grobbbbbbbbbbbbbb

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“As a teacher, Dove said she came to realize that problem students often had problems. Perhaps, they couldn’t hear or see well enough to follow in class. They might be hungry. Mood swings in her high schools students often reflected personal or family struggles.

‘Suspending them doesn’t solve any of these problems,’ Dove said. ‘Let’s slow down. Let’s stop throwing them out. Let’s come together, teachers, administrators, parents, students and community, and devise a plan that works. We have already seen places that have done this. This is not poppycock. Working together, instead of working in isolation, creates alternatives so we can keep kids where we need them to be — in the classroom and learning.’ ”
=============================================

Very wise, sane, and effective words for tackling the suspension problem.

A poster mentioned my example earlier. Yes, I did ask my Asst. Principal to back me up each time I had to send any student to the office for disruptive behavior – after he/she failed to respond to warnings from me – during the first two weeks of each school year. I would, in turn, promise that few subsequent times of sending my students to the office would occur for the remaining of that school year. It was a very effective plan. I was a seasoned teacher of about 20 years when I requested this of my assistant principal. It should be noted that the penalty given to students from the administrator was usually less than out-of-school suspension because I had “nipped problems in the bud,” you might say, before they became more serious in nature. Also, students knew that I cared for each of them, as I daily delivered targeted instruction. They felt comfortable knowing what line they must not cross in my classes, i.e. ignoring warnings from me, the teacher in charge of her classroom, to alter inappropriate behavior.

However, I must emphasize the wisdom of Ms. Dove’s understanding of students’ misbehaviors, as she stated, above. I understood and empathized with the personal problems students had, even as I insisted upon a classroom of respect – respect from students toward me, their teacher, but also respect from me, their teacher, to all of my students, as well as respect from all students to one another. The focus each day, then, was on learning, and not on behavior in spite of any personal problems. Students knew how much I cared for them personally, and how much I desired that they grow and increase their reading skills. My Advanced Reading course, for high school juniors and seniors, was an elective course and my classes were always filled during the 16 years that I taught that course, and other courses.

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Today my 7th grader told me that she saw an 8th grade girl go up to her boy friend and pull his face into her ample boobs and say guess who. My response to her was how gross. I asked if this girl was White, Black or Hispanic. She said she wasn’t going to answer since I was being raciest. So that told me the girl was not white. I made sure to tell her that this kind of behaviour was completely inappropriate for any female, no matter what her age. But especially an 8th grade girl in the hallway of the middle school. My bet is this 8th grader will be pregnant by 9th grade. I am sure I will be able to pick her out at the school social. I can bet that her parent is under 30, rather than my child having a parent over 50. Her Grandmother is most likely younger than me as well, with this kind of behavior.

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Another side of this coin is that far too often disruptive students bring a class to a standstill, leaving 29 (or 39 – where are we headed – 49 or 59 per class?) other students who ARE interested in learning out of luck. Sometimes the disruption is a teacher’s inability to manage the classroom, but too often it’s because incompetent school leadership leaves the teachers to fend for themselves.

Yet another side of the coin is when a large percentage of students simply don’t want to be there: they have little or no family support – or no place to live, they’re hungry, they’ve been bullied – or shot at – on the way to school, and/or they’ve come to believe that there’s no point in trying as they’ll fail no matter what. In those cases we’ve all failed: NCLB requiring “high standards,” a past governor WE elected stealing 8 BILLION dollars from the schools (remember, teachers, you helped elect him – be careful what you ask for), poorly made tests measuring nothing important preventing otherwise competent kids from graduating – the list goes on.

Lots of ways we might address these issues so that disruptive kids could learn instead how to enjoy learning. Many of them might be better addressed than blaming schools and teachers, but that’s a LOT easier than facing the societal and political issues that are at root.

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Nancy Jester (http://whatsupwiththat.nancyjester.com) is going public with everything regarding the SACS letter. She has released Dr Atkinson’s response to SACS along with her comments and the other board member’s input.

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Georgia started as place for prisoners of King George. It seems only fitting that we continue the Practice of such a long and great Tradition.

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The bad thing about the school to prison pipeline is: the students DON’T CARE. You cannot change someone who does not want to change. Above a certain age, then even theri parents have no sway over them. Certainly not their teachers or school administrators. Until you get students to care about their own education, you might as well just write them off and get them into prison as fast as possible and keep them there for as long as possible. They are dangers to society!

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Observer

She asked the race of the girl for the same reason the Civil Rights frauds do for suspensions. Does that satisfy you?

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Amen to fer….I am watching APS closely. They do very little about disruptive students. Well behaved kids can’t learn and it has nothing to do with skin color. They blame the teacher. They forget to blame the young baby mommas and missing baby daddies for bad parenting leading to disrespect for teachers. We have an entire American culture that has become biased against teachers to hide the shortcomings of those who just won’t raise their children with quality time, nurturing and protection. And, for those of you who raise respectful children, I am truly sorry that your children are exposed to “Thug Nation” on a daily basis

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@ Maureen

“The typical response is that black students misbehave more but the research refutes that contention. Instead, studies show that black students are punished more severely when they misbehave and for infractions that are often judgment calls — talking back or showing disrespect.”

Can you see why your point doesn’t make sense? You’re refuting “black students misbehave more” with “black students are punished more severely” for misbehavior. The severity of punishment can be wholly unrelated to the frequency of misbehavior.

I’m familiar with the one study I think you’re referring to. The problem with that study is it assumes that if white students are involved in X% of “serious” misbehavior requiring suspensions, they must also be involved in X% of “non-serious” misbehavior not requiring suspensions. A complete logical fallacy.

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Teachers need support. Undisciplined children of all races should be dealt with so that children who want to learn can.

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This system is for the best. No one wants to be a ditch digger, line cook, or janitor, so by giving certain kids a record (and lets face it, they weren’t going to cure cancer anyway) we can ensure the supply of unskilled labor that we will need for generations to come.

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@ xxx, 8:16 am. No, the question that Sandy Springs Parent asked her daughter about her classmate wasn’t the same as the question asked by “the Civil Rights fraud for suspensions.” That mother was not a surveyer asking for statistical information. She goes on after her daughter asked if she was a “raciest” [sic]: “I asked if this girl was White, Black or Hispanic. She said she wasn’t going to answer since I was being raciest. So that told me the girl was not white.”

Why? Sounds like the daughter is used to her mother asking about race to put down Hispanics and blacks. Sounds like the mother makes assumptions about the superiority of whites, that her daughter is definitely onto in a disapproving way. Sounds like you (”Civil Rights fraud”) are on the mother’s wave-length.

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Maureen on vacation?

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The year was 1964; in a show of solidarity…or youthful indiscretion…we all doned Mohawks, for which we were all unceremonously paddled and suspended for a week…fortunately, we were allowed to play that friday’s big game; in the ensuing post-suspension weeks, we had to wear skull caps until we were able to display a “more-civilized” appearance. Was this my first suspension? NO WAY! Yet somehow, I, and many of my classmates, pushed through, sustained the “dissing” of our elders, and not only survived, but became stronger for the experiences. HOWBOUT YOU FOLKS STOP HANDLING THESE KIDS AS THOUGH THEY’RE FRAGILE PACKETS OF BREAKABLES. It’s all about MEANINGFUL consequences. Get with it, you stupid people. If the kid warrants suspension, DO IT.,

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Why do we continue to listen to the West Coast?

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When you get right down to it, if a person doesn’t want to go to prison, it’s pretty easy to avoid going. Millions and millions of people never spend a day in a prison, or even a county jail for that matter.

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Marueen, your accepting of these studies as valid shows your liberal bias. I suggest that You and your readers go to “The City” web page for their assessment of Mr.Obamas administration attempt to give thousands of minortity(Black) hoods a pass on their violent and disruptive behavior in our public schools. This fact is sad but true!

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school is a pipeline to whatever a child wants it to be.

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Don’t worry Ms. Dowd, Obama’s got this:

Executive Order — White House Initiative on Educational Excellence for African Americans

I predict that this will play out like NCLB (Race to the Top)

School administrators will make sure all races are punished equally, whether justified or not.

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Anyone else beside me have a problem with the DOE having an Office of Civil Rights? Talk about mission creep and sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong…

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Despite the nice people running them, schools have become for many an oppressive system that echoes the injustices they receive at home and observe and hear about in their neighborhood. I know it must be extremely disorienting for a dedicated teacher or principal to run up against these children who hate not just that child’s world and the people in it, but the teacher’s world and the people in it. I know this will sound stupid or vaporous to many of you readers, but the only answer to this is love. Love opens avenues of communication, and transforms people. “Yes, you hate me, but I love you anyway” is the only response to rejecting behavior that can mean anything. It is the soft answer that turneth away wrath.

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Public education should be offered, not required. It should end after grade 6 with an exit exam. In order to exit, students should be able to read, write, balance a check book. They should also be able to demonstrate a basic understanding of the legislative process and causality. Anyone who does not pass should be offered an additional three years to ‘catch up’.

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There are too many people with different ideas trying to pull us in too many different directions.

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The problem with these statistics are that they are STATISTICS! Students are not statistics; they are people. Some African-American kids are jerks as are some Caucasian kids, and some Latino kids, etc. I wish people would quit making decisions for children based on statistics and get to know them instead. Race doesn’t matter, people. Education is about individuals, not races or any other subgroup!

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We as parents have a responsibility to teach, nurture and discipline our children. Their behavior in classrooms are an extension of ourselves. A school’s first priority should be to establish discipline and make the teacher’s job as stress free as possible. If my child is disruptive, call me on the phone first. Parents should be active in their child’s education but the teacher is in charge of the classroom. Administrators shouldnever leave disruptivechildren in the classroom. It interferes with the ability of the other students learning environment. The teacher should no tbe blamed for an absence of values that include respect of adults in the school. Just today a senator in Chicago likened striking Chicago teachers to thugs. The disrespect for teachers does not help with disciplining students. How can you expect a teachers who has children to respect youand yours if youdon’t respect them. We have to improve our teaching of values at home to begin to changethe culture of violence and disobedience at our schools.
All punishments for infractions should be the same for all children regardless of race or religion or ethnicity.

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We’ve all heard the term “…mountains out of mole hills…” that’s exactly what this is all about; in fact, this timely phrase just about describes 99.99% of the issues we “discuss” in these pages. There is no school-to-prison pipeline, unless, of course, the “poor downtroden recipients” of this pipeline wish to view it as such. Those who view the (what passes for) current disciplinary infrastructure as anything but what it is are, themselves, the root cause of this, and many more problems which have surfaced within the joke which has become the public education system. ONCE AGAIN, I implore…get rid of the psychologists; the “studies” authored by gurus of snake oil, and all the gd crap which has permeated the fabric of education and, unfortunately, the very conduct of social interaction. ONCE AGAIN, put teachers in complete charge of the classroom. THEY and THEY ALONE, should be the FIRST and FINAL word in anything regarding the education of these kids. If the kid _ _ ck _, roast his six and send him back into the game…the classroom. If he insists, through habitual and repeated infractions, on continued refusal to follow the gd rules of school society, throw him out; suspend him…call it whatever you wish. As long as we insist on trying to fit round pegs in square hole, we all lose…kids, adults, society, the whole damn enchalada. No rocket science here, just plain frequin common damn sense. Try it, it just might work, because it’s a damn sight true that all this crappin around sure as hell ain’t. Stop treating these kids like porclean gods.

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After reading some of the comments made in this article, I am shocked and appalled by some of these responses. First and foremost, race may not seem as if it is an important subject but race and socioeconomic conditions proves to be an important factor when expressing feelings in regards to anything political or educational. Race is not pointed out to always say “the white man is bringing the black man down” but it is there to give you facts. If you don’t agree with some of the facts, that’s perfectly fine but please do not over look racial and socioeconomic factors, for we should know by now that they can and sometimes do play a role in today’s society.
Second, I have witness both sides of the stick when it comes to suspension. Sometimes students are stereotyped and automatically “made an example of” just because of one offense. Educators began to look at that student as a “problem child” and as a result find a way to turn a very minor and simple offence, which may be a part of growing up, into this big issue and then label it “correcting the repeated behavior” or something to that extent when it is the first time this behavior has been displayed.
I have also seen the other side. Sometimes you do have students that are often disturbing others from learning, and no I am not talking about those who sometimes laugh too loud or talks every now and then because LET’S BE HONEST students will talk when they are not suppose to AT LEAST TWICE throughout a year, but I am referring to those who CONSTANTLY are causing a disturbance by shouting and yelling and throwing things. I seen these students get sent to the office for a MAJOR offence and come right back into the classroom with no form of punishment. These students in turn have not learned that their behavior affects others or even that there are consequences for such behavior. After repeated, not once or twice repeated, but after CONSTANT repeated offenses then other measures may need to be taken. But once again we have to look at all the factors that may be attributed to students behaving the way they do. It is up to that educator (because you should know when you become an educator it is not just about teaching a subject but also about understanding your learners) to be able to identify or at least attempt to identify, and I say that timidly, all the factors affecting or causing the behavior. Is the student finished with their work? Are they being challenged enough? Is there any time in the classroom for them to misbehave? What is their home situation like? What is going on in their life at this exact moment?! These are just a few examples of what should go through an educator’s mind before even considering calling someone a “problem child” let alone suggesting alternative school. I hate to say it but sometimes it’s just the educator not caring or just not doing their job efficiently and effectively but sure blame the child. Let’s keep in mind students are kids, they’re children, if adults have bad days and have temper tantrums, why do you not expect some students to sometimes? And no I’m not saying that you will not have some students that need to be in a secluded learning environment but not all students do just because of some behaviors that we would really just label “annoying”.
So before we simply go off trying to suspend and place students in alternative schools (because once let’s be honest once alternative school they feel as though that is all that is left for them) please take a step back and evaluate the whole situation because once child feels “labeled” they usually tend to stick with whatever you say to play a role! I mean let’s face it, some teachers tell students that they will be in jail soon or will never be anything. Do you really think the student will dismiss that and decide to prove them wrong? If you continue to think they are the “problem child” they become that! I think therefore I am! If that’s all they hear or feel from educators, people who are suppose to enrich and inspire students to make something out of themselves, why we should expect them not to misbehave? Please just think before saying we need more alternative schools and more students should be there.

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Granted–Fedral prisons are overloaded by 35% or more, but I ask this simple question: When students are rude, disrespectful, skip classes, gang activity, bullying and the list goes on, what are school administrators to do? It is apparent that students have a sense of entitlement, along with many parents, with free education, no cost for books, free or reduced lunc and breakfast, demands for college scholarships, free transportation and still students come to school and consistently act inappropriate. Parents are little to no help and often fabricate to help their child get out of trouble. If we are TRULY trying to make our students career-ready, then we must teach them what is acceptable and what is unacceptable because, for some unknown reason, many students act as though they can not distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate actions. Maybe we should begin incarcerating the parents and make them more responsible parents.Just saing…

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maureen, this must be your calling. i can’t see another reason why you continue to write these posts when all of these people with no solutions post and bash kids, point fingers, and do everything else but take responsibility for the fact that we are all` responsible for making sure that kids are raised to be responsible and educated citizens. i’d like to let you know that i don’t post often, but i get a lot out of the things that you post and it drives me to want to make the world a better place. may God bless continue to bless you by letting His light shine through you.

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HERE’S SOMETHING WEHAVEN”T TALKED ABOUT — ACTING OUT — some kids out act to get notuced because there is abuse at hime

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I see no such pipeline. Even toddlers can understand that choices carry consequences.

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We spend so much effort trying to teach the children with behavior issues,but what about the students who come to school with manners and a desire to learn??? They are being ignored completely!!!

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As a former director of an alternative school I can tell you beyond a shadow of doubt that the “School-to-Prison” pipeline is real. There have been so many students who left middle school and within 5 years were in prison. So many of them came to the school already involved in the juvenile justice system. The problems just got worse the older they became.

The problem with the article is the author wants to lay blame on an intolerant school system that is not sensitive to the diverse needs of the minorities involved in the school system. And because of this lack of sensitivity or racism then the education system becomes the easy-to-blame villain for the poor plight of so many students. But, what the study does not reveal is how many of these kids come from single parent homes. How many have been involved in drugs or have been sexually active at an early age. Or how many have absentee parents who were involved in the legal system themselves or have low regard for the education system themselves. Of course these things aren’t measured because they could point to some other cause for this problem other than education.

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PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE….lets get the facts in order, reality in place and our heads thinking properly. As a volunteer and a parent. The system is flawed. EXTREMELY FLAWED. In the Atlanta Public Schools system history has been made by the cheating scandal. Adults. An administration that is still employed…board member have NOT changed. I am currently studying this system and OUR alternative school was SUED for a civil rights violation. They still operate in this capacity with no fear. NONE. Why? I tell you one thing…its not because of BAD kids. Its a BAD administration with no system of checks and balances. I have carefully observed these children with CHRONIC BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS and I will tell you this. If they are chronic ALL of us would have been in an alternative school. The fact of the matter in this case is that the system fails certain children based on the PERCEIVED notion that they will fail anyways and that isn’t their call to make. They need to do their job. Furthermore the difference between other schools and these schools is the SYSTEM…NOT the kids. My child is a VICTIM of this system. If I were not his mother and educated on these topics be would have been victimized further. I will say this. In a school system that would even entertain ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding MINORS, I’d say all those that agree need a career change. Children are children BECAUSE they were meant to be tolerated. We as parents tolerate our children daily. I tell you what. When your child talks back ONCE send them to boarding school. Sound HARSH? Welcome to the zero tolerance system. Your child will be in prison in no time. These are kids people. Kids.

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