Does charter school funding leave taxpayers holding the bag?

To the point and excellently written! Thanks, John! Send a copy to our governor, et al.

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what is silliest to me is Giest thinking we can afford to bankroll a technically unnecessary venture in this economy. when is the last time Cherokee teachers saw a raise…?

who does he think he is, Sonny Perdue?

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These private charter school management companies should have to BID for the contracts to run these schools. In this case, Charter Schools USA created a front non-profit organization, Georgia Charter Education Foundation (they even registered it in Florida first– oops!) to hire themselves as the operator. The non-profit board is not elected by anyone, not even parents at the school, and the management company creates the budget (including whatever management fee they want) for the puppet board approval each year. What a deal!

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CCA’s owner/operators (a private company) were given over $1million of taxpayer money as start-up capital

But, wait…I thought charter schools were public schools? I mean how many public schools do you know that are owned by private companies???

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Again, this is an effort to have privately-operated, publicly-funded schools which have very little or no accountability to anyone. This Cherokee County venture is a very good example of the reasons this amendment should always fail in Georgia.

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I am pleasantly surprised to find Centrist and I in agreement. My thanks to Mr. Konop and to you, Maureen, for continuing to follow the money. I think this is a big rock to overturn and what you see will lead to the highest levels of state government.

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@ yuzeyurbrane – We are not yet in agreement. While I await representative leader supporter’s response, I do note that districts seem to have facilities (property taxed?) as collateral for the seed money. It is still an open question to me whether that is enough of an offset, or whether other at risk collateral such as a bond is needed. Unlike many ideological partisans, my mind is still open on this subject. It seems to me that Mr. Konop is like me on this issue from this comment in his letter: “For the record, I support charter schools and believe they play an important and positive role in our education system”.

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Well, I don’t know what just happened.
I was trying to say that once again we see people not understanding that not all charters are the same. MOST charters are start-up or conversion schools approved by local boards, not by the state,and they get generally less $ per student than is spent on students in mainstream schools. FOR PROFIT CHARTERS ARE NOT TYPICAL CHARTERS.
You would think a blogger/journalist whose own kids attend a charter system might feel inclined to explain how NOT ALL CHARTERS ARE THE SAME.
For the record, I am opposed to the amendment, not because I am opposed to there being some route of appeal when local boards arbitrarily vote down a charter, but because this is so transparently about sending tax dollars to private corporations. If the amendment were accompanied by a restriction requiring funding go only to non-profit schools I’d be all for it.

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Problems with private companies failing our children while profitting but consistent support year after year for a government system that fails our children and employs tens of thousands in the process.

Seems like a bit of hipocracy to me.

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Excuse me but Cherokee County is not spending one thin dime on any charter Schools. All of the charter school funding is coming from the state which the local system would not be getting anyway. The real question is what is Cherokee County Public school is doing with the local taxes they receive for the 1000 students that are not attending the public schools. BTW someone should look into construction contracts. Our grandkids will be paying the debt the school board has run up building new way over priced schools.

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This proposes plan will not only leave The Georgia taxpayer with a bag of unjustifiable and unwise expenses, but will cause even more financial distress and harm to all of the struggling school systems across the STATE.

In addition to the millions of Georgia students who will be abandoned and not have access to the same quality of education as those lucky enough to get slots into these planned Charter schools. How can the citizens of Georgia possibly trust our Political Leadership on the handling of $430 million new Education spending on a New UNTESTED and UNPROVEN State Wide program such as the one proposed?

The amount of money set aside is only the initial investment. Surely there will be untold millions to follow in future years. Spending that will benefit only a very small percentage of Georgia students and completely ignoring the vast majority of our student population. A time when the importance of a good and quality education is paramount to ALL of our children’s future success.

This investment is not a good way to spend Taxpayer money in times of dire financial stress. Especially when the many current school systems across this great State, are presently struggling just to get their budgets in a manageable position to provide for All of its students they now presently serve.

This proposal is a classic example of the failure of Political Leadership giving in to the plans of a National Political Party. Despite the obvious facts of the sizable potential failure before them. Our leaders are forging ahead strong willed, to implement a plan that is clearly of a political Party’s invention and not in the best interest of the people they serve.

Just as in T-SPLOST the taxpayers money is the the chopping Block for dispersion and use for the politically connected, family members,church members, business associates, and select campaign donors.

We all should reject this plan as was T-SPLOST. The millions of Georgia’s students DESERVE better CARE and TREATMENT from our existing Political Leaders.

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Karl Marx,

…. Excuse me but Cherokee County is not spending one thin dime on any charter Schools. All of the charter school funding is coming from the state which the local system would not be getting anyway…..

The money came from state and federal taxes. As a tax payer, no matter what pocket it comes from I want it to be fiscally rational transaction. Is that asking too much?

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Once Again @ 1:22 pm—if you believe that is the problem, there already is a solution. It is called private schools.

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Mary Elizabeth. The Elephant in the room is that a straight reading of the legal opinion that struck down the commission could also equally apply to the process of direct state board approval–those schools are probably unconstitutional as well. It’s just that they weren’t contested in the lawsuit.

For a long time the state board would not approve anything that the locals didn’t, because none of them could produce balanced budgets on only state FTE funding. They quickly “caught” the ones the appeared to be good ones orphaned by the commission’s demise. But the “extraordinary emergency funding” that the governor promised was only supposed to be 1 year. If the state were to establish an ongoing flow of subsidy to state chartered schools, don’t you think someone will go back to court to close them down as well? That it hasn’t happened yet is merely that strategically the foes of competition know that the “added lawyer of government” point should be won first.

This begs a couple of questions…if straight state FTE funding is inadequate for long term maintenance of a program of any quality (discounting the federal launch money) than how can the state say that they are fulfilling their constitutional responsibility to provide an adequate education.

Second—you still must deal with the question of why local board do or don’t approve charters. A self-important, poorly preforming school administration or board is unlikely to suddenly put children or parent concerns first in the case of a competent charter applicant.

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Charter,

Obviously the charter schools that went out business in Georgia and around the country demonstrate the lack of controls. Secondly the fee portion of close to a million dollars year is paid to the private company as a service, nothing allows any crawl back rights to that money or any assets accumulated by the private company. That is why it is a joke to call this a public charter school ie follow the money. Also the start-up capital was the Obama stimulus money that was given via grants. As I said I would love a business deal that the government give me matching dollars for a start-up with a contract that guarantees me close to a million a year with no penalties or obligations.

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Just as an observation to CharterStarter, Too, you often seem to shift the ground of the argument when answering criticisms, a real logical fallacy that’s quite misleading. For example:

John Konop is questioning the private CCA owner and operators being given more than $1 million of taxpayer money as start-up capital, which seems to me a real problem as a taxpayer. Your reply to him: “I find it somewhat ridiculous that you are concerned about spending $1M for an organization to manage a school (for central administration which includes personnel, finance, legal/regulatory, instruction, assessment, insurance, etc.), and yet… ”

And then you go off on an unrelated tangent to discuss expenses of Cherokee County re. 2 secretaries and central office personnel, and DeKalb County’s fiscal problems. But you still haven’t discussed the point that John Konop brings up about taxpayers’ money being paid to a private company, without any oversight or penalties for failure.

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@prof and charter starter-

Well done, prof. You took the words out of my mouth. When there is no response to the argument, the old tactic of deflection and finger pointing ensues. There are a number of horror stories of for-profit charter schools on the web that have lined their own pockets at the tax payers expense. I am not saying that our public schools are perfect but we should be working together to build those up. I am getting tired of hearing the BIG LIE that our schools are failing when it has been shown that schools that serve the communities with little or no poverty are outperforming the rest of the world-the ones that struggle continue to be those with a higher level of poverty.

By the way, when at the movies yesterday they previewed one of the biggest propaganda movies of the year “Won’t Back Down”. It is based on so many untruths and has been bank rolled by the reformers to paint teachers as heartless, uncaring, and evil and the unions as obstructionists.Much to my daughter’s dismay, I yelled out LIES and booed while they played it. The current reforms are all about a shift in money and power into the hands of the wealthy-not the parents/students that they portend to serve.

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@Karl, Cherokee County has 8 fulough days next this year. Maybe the used the funds to prevent a 9th.

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http://www.rothgerber.com/showarticle.aspx?Show=1627

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Mary, what you find out after a while is that “charters” as a political cuts not as Republican/Democrat but as those comfortable with the status quo and invested in it vs. those who are not. Kathy Ashe, a Democrat, was the originator of the original Charter school Legislation back in the late ’80’s. I respect her greatly. John Barge was is more a product of the educational establishment than the Republican machine(which greatly respected Joe Martin), and his turf is comparatively enlarged if the amendment fails.

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Centrist @ 2:38–you really quoted me out of context in a manner that is unfair to my comment and also to CharterStarter. My quote was not in response to anything Charter Starter posted but was a response to a 1:22 post by Once Again in which he stated: “The solution is to end the theft and let the market provide its inherent accountability that no government program ever can.” I simply stated the obvious. We already have that approach and it is called private school. Also, I think it is fair to infer that I don’t think this is a solution available to many to the problems of public education.

Once Again @4:23–I don’t really understand your rationale for arguing that private schools are not the free market, but I would be willing to listen to further explanation of your point.

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Marney, 4:23 pm

Marney, I do not perceive the charter movement as simply a Republican or Democratic movement. It is a multifaceted movement. For instance, I support traditional public schools, with improvements made within, and I, also. support public charter schools that work in alliance with traditional public schools, not against them. I do not support the Constitutional Amendment mainly because I perceive that it is political in nature, in large part, and also because I do not believe that it is needed. Those wealthy, powerful ideologues, of national standing, who are supporting the charter school movement and who do not support traditional public education are, however, Republicans, not Democrats.

I only mentioned that Superintendent Barge was a Republican in my last post because I believe that it took courage for him to transcend the political interests of his fellow Republicans. You may recall the harsh criticisms he received from other Republicans, who are in power positions in Georgia, because of his having made the decision that he did regarding the Constitutional Amendment.

Moreover, as I recall, it was Democratic Rep. Kathy Ashe, a member of the House Education Committee, who advised that Education Committee to go “slow” in the Charter Constitutional Amendment issue in order that members might fully understand what repercussions that bill might have, in days and years to come, upon students and schools in Georgia. In my opinion, her words of not rushing into decision-making, relative to that bill, to the Education Committee were wise and courageous remarks. As you have stated, she supports charter schools overall, as I do.

President Obama advocates for charter schools, but he also support traditional public schools. He said in his speech at the DNC last week, “And now you have a choice – we can gut education, or we can decide that in the United States of America, no child should have her dreams deferred because of a crowded classroom or a crumbling school. No family should have to set aside a college acceptance letter because they don’t have the money.”

http://educationvotes.nea.org/2012/09/07/obama-biden-stand-up-for-students-education-at-convention/

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“The solution is to end the theft and let the market provide its inherent accountability that no government program ever can”

Well, while that makes a nice bumper sticker, it doesn’t answer the questions inherent here. As Charter Starter points out, the assets after all liabilities are paid returns to the system. Well, what about those liabilities? It would seem the company itselft should have to pay those liabilities if it failed to succeed as well as any tax dollars (whether local, state, or federal) back also. If you want the market to run the show, then the players in the market must be willing and required by law to be responsible.

@Charter Starter: “Charters have a stiff consequence if they get out of line – districts don’t.”

Now that I agree with! That is a problem that education law needs to address, whether traditional public or charter school. I think a great many of the problems we see with school systems could be, and in fact should be, controlled. There wouldn’t be the need for a “new” system to redo it all, at some expense to both private and public funds, if we would just address that very issue.

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Charter,

In all due respect, it is obvious you are taking a fanatic position on Charter schools. Numerous charter schools across the country and Georgia have gone out of business with simular watered down requirements. You obviously have never run a business or you would laugh at the requirements. This deal is fairly simple. The private management company put up about 1 year of profits paid by tax payers to get another million dollars from tax payers of free seed money to start the school. And for taking almost no risk they were rewarded with about million dollars a year in profits.And if they go out of business tax payers took the overwhelming majority of risk. Do you really not see the issue with transactions like this with tax payers money?

If you have a personal issue with the performance of Cherokee county schools, Dr. P…….that has nothing to do with the above fiscally irresponsable transaction. This is a lesson most parents teach their kids.

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@ Konop – Let me try this again, as you are apparently struggling with direct questions that counter your claims.

1. WHICH charter schools IN GEORGIA have closed due to financial reasons, and of these, which are affiliated with management organizations.

2. HOW do you find the pay increases and excessive expenses on personnel to support Dr. P fiscally responsible when teachers are being furloughed?

3. HOW are taxpayers protected when local school districts have NO consequences, NO accountability for spending on excessive central office services, contracts through the “Good ‘Ole Boy” system, and general stupidity in spending on things that don’t benefit teachers and kids?

Fanatic I may be, but this fanatic believes you don’t have a reasonable answer to a single one of these questions.

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@ Konop – You say, “And for taking almost no risk they were rewarded with about million dollars a year in profits.”

Kindly tell me what “risks” the central office has taken when they charge the state’s taxpayers $7,897,542.43. They can run that district any old way they please – not achieve, not be fiscally conservative…and NOTHING will happen to them. Where is THEIR risk?

Tell you what. I want you to do an Open Records Request to Cherokee Charter Academy for how much money they actually paid to Charter Schools USA. Go ahead and do it. What you will find is it ISN’T $1M. The Company invested in the school – pumping money in this past year since there was such uncertainty. IF the school closed, who would take the loss? Plus, CSUSA would also not have future business, which their business plan likely counts on. So you see, there is a risk…one that a school district official will NEVER feel or care about as the spend, spend, spend….

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When a debater ignores direct questions and uses slurs (”fanatic”) against another – the losing side has been identified. That is not to say this debate is over, or that one side has yet won – but there is now a clear leader.

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Centrist,

In all due respect I really do not care if you support crony capitalism. All I am doing is presenting the facts. I learned years ago I only control myself. If you decide to support this crazy funding system that has shown to leave tax payers holding the bag that is your choice. Years ago I warned about the debt issues and lack of production leading to a financial collapse here. I was called “chicken little” by many, yet it did not change the truth. In business we call it is what it is.

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I would question “does not get carried away with politics and ideology” from the man who posted comments about Kyle Wingfield’s beliefs being in favor of “forcing women to have special needs kids” in a previous blog.

While I don’t disagree with Mr. Konop’s questioning of charter school funding and controls, his being the messenger doesn’t strengthen the argument.

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Charter,

It is obvious you have a private agenda unlike me. Why not first tell all of us who you are so we all understand if you have a private agenda? Btw just use google and you will see the schools.

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3school,

I appreciate you are open minded to my comments. I am not a politician, nor spokesmen, just a parent. And if you can reach people better than I, spreading the message, please do it.

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Konop, welcome to the world of CharterStarter. He/she obviously views charter schools with the passion of a true believer. I admire their passion but think sometimes we need dispassionate analysis.

As to Centrist, what do you propose to solve what you perceive is the problem of people who pay both school taxes and private school tuition? Or for those who are sending their kids to public schools because they can’t afford private school tuition and school taxes?

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Charter Starter Too– Those companies you listed as vendors had to submit a competitive bid in an RFP process that was open to the public (even Georgia Power has to compete against Cobb EMC in the south end of the county). No such process was held for the Cherokee Charter school. In addition, the construction companies built an asset (a building) that is now held by the community and taxpayers. Charter Schools USA will charge rent to the charter school and use those funds to buy the building, which will belong to the company. And, Charter Schools USA closed multiple schools in Texas when the laws there regarding for-profit management companies changed and they could no longer make as much money (so much for it being “about the children.”).

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John Konop posted “I really do not care if you support crony capitalism”.

John, I initially posted at 12:11 this afternoon “… the well written follow up letter from Mr. Konop, I would stand opposed to the amendment also. I await a response from either school board member Mr. Geist or other representatives supporting the amendment.” Like you, I don’t know who CharterStarter, Too is or his motivations – but I find his arguments lucid. You have become snarly toward him, and now me claiming I support crony capitalism. Prove to me that this is crony capitalism, and I will vote against the amendment – but the simple accusation as argument does not cut it.

I don’t care if private corporations make a profit if they deliver cost effective results. You claim to be a businessman, so should feel the same way. Governments are very good at spending, wasting, and abusing taxpayer funds via cronyism and insider deals just like some companies that use O.P.M. What voters need to know here is it worth trying to set up a competitive trial via charters, and if so – how should it be structured. You have made some salient points, but they have been countered by an anonymous blogger. I look forward to 60 days more debate here and elsewhere before I vote.

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To CharterStarter, Too – I apologize for seeming sexist when I used the terms he/his before you divulged you are a Mom. Thank you for your volunteerism, just as I thank John Konop for his. I hope there will be a middle ground consensus on this highly charged issue.

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Palm Bay Charter School owned by the city of Palm Bay managed by Charter Schools USA. June 2010 Charter Schools USA fired and by Friday another management company hired. December 2009 Palm Bay city council minutes. Discussed mismanagement by Charter Schools USA and were trying to find a way to financially open the school after Christmas. If they did find a way, of their debts Charter Schools USA would be paid their 25% management fee first. I have the records.

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@ Charter Starter Too “Construction companies often put up competitive bids – the “low ball” gets selected, and then a bunch of change orders get added on: and added on ….The truth….

This smells like another boondoggle GA legislature tsp-LOST boondoggle with family members and political pocket lining at the expense of tax payers.

I thanked the lord the day my child left public education and after college and a lovely daughter in law now in a few years a grand child back in the Ga school system (god help us) we need to fix the public school system rather than outsourcing it.

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@ Charter Starter, Too. Again and again you shift the grounds of the argument, and introduce red herrings that have nothing to do with the subject.

5:44 pm. What do #2 and #3 have to do with the issue raised by John Konop about charter schools funded by taxpayers that have no accountability? #2 and #3 relate to public schools’ use of funds that have gone awry. To quote an old truism, two wrongs don’t make a right.

….6:28 pm. What do public, non-educational corporations have to do with the present subject?

@ Centrist, 7:05 pm. I doubt strongly that CS2 is simply a volunteer mom. This is about the 5th blog-thread relating to the charter school amendment where she relentlessly answers every negative criticism at great length, late into the evening as well as all during the day. She can only be a legislator who has much to gain politically if this amendment is approved in November. And quite a few legislators are moms.

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@ John Konop – Yes I have a solid educational economics background with an Honorable Discharge as an O-4 with 6 years of active duty, and years in the private sector. I (probably like you) do not support the Obama administration’s spending and radically increased debt. I also don’t support many local bloated governments’ spending and lack of accountability and NO risk. I have been a past PTA board member and president, gone to state workshops and been turned off by some of those who use the term “For the Children” as a shield for their personal and political agendas. That is all you need to know about me – time to stick to your facts instead of the insults.

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@LD- “why not just clarify and solidify the State Board of Ed’s role. As this was not part of the discussion when creating this ballot question, in my opinion the commission smacks a little too much of “Good Ole Boy” politics”

And it makes me ask why the simple solution just can’t ever be implemented. Even if the charter schools commission is indeed everything it’s touted to be and as necessary as many believe, it’s hard to get past the politics to fairly judge anything coming out of the state house here of late.

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John Konop, I was with you on your last post until you AGAIN accused me of being an advocate of crony capitalism. Your branding it (maybe it will someday turn out to be so, but there is no smoking gun now) and me is the last straw. I will not respond to any more of your posts.

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What about the Islamic charter schools that are around the US? There is one in Georgia. If we allow charter schools then most any group will try to open these schools.

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@ John Konop, 8:39 pm. I was thinking, myself, of State Rep. Jan Jones, who introduced HB 797 that proposed the charter school amendment. If you check out her website, you will see that she has owned a small business and introduced several bills relating to education (and thus could by a stretch be termed an “educator,” or one who specializes in the practice and theory of education {American Heritage Dictionary]. And she has 4 children.

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Prof,

You could be right, rather Irronic since from what I hear her kids went to public schools in Milton, which has a great reputation like Cherokee. I find it rather bizarre that parents with good schools, would spew ugly stuff about the schools that help maintain real-estate value. I get the issue with APS, but it would seem people with a real inside advantage edge would only negotiate against their own interest ie job, money, donations……….in places like East Cobb, West Cobb, Cherokee, North Fulton………

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Ron F, 5:26 pm

“I don’t trust them, and the truly honest up there seem to be few and far between.”
===========================================

One way I have found to assess the full commitment to education among specific legislators in Georgia, aside from politics, is to notice the legislative trends in the bills that specific legislators introduce throughout the legislative sessions. For instance, when Rep. Jan Jones and Rep. Edward Lindsey introduced HB 664 which would not allow teachers in State Commissioned Charter Schools to become part of the Teacher Retirement System, that told me where these specific legislators stood regarding not only the TRS, but also regarding charter school control by legislative decision, rather than primarily through educational decision through the state Department of Education. Later in this past legislative session, Rep. Jan Jones also sponsored the bill to the Constitutional Amendment regarding the State Charter School Commission.

Study the national Republican educational agenda. Study the website, http://www.alecexposed.org, regarding educational legislation advocated by ALEC, notice what Common Cause has to say regarding legislation across the nation related to educational ideological legislation.

If some of Georgia’s Republican legislators are consistently making legislation that is anti-traditional public schools, instead of trying to better traditional public education, and if they are consistently following national rightwing ideological trends in Georgia’s educational legislation, then one must assess that these legislators are probably coordinating outside of Georgia with their legislative educational agendas. That is politically based, imo, more than it is purely educational. Encourage citizens to vote those legislators out of office, and tell others what is happening in this regard, also.

Make sure to follow, specifically, the legislation that will be forthcoming in the next legislative session in Georgia related to educational trends and notice if educational bills are also following a national Republican ideological agenda. In addition, make note of which legislators sponsor which specific bills. Then, you will be able to gather your answer related to the public trust and elected officials serving the common good of all of their constituents.

http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20112012/116389.pdf

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Mary E..sorry not to respond for a while. I’m vice-president of the PTSA of the magnet school my two children now attend, and we had our first meeting tonight.

I respect your response and hope that you aren’t assuming that I intend to vote for the amendment. I am just exhausted at watching the time, energy and venom leveled into this debate.

After 10 years spent trying to help a truly innovative, truly altruistic school survive the constant stupidity that is Dekalb, I am at the point of trying merely to save my own children. I have spoken before the DeKalb board many times about the need to consider their own charters an asset rather than a threat. I have tried to ingraciate myself to Crawford Lewis and Pat Pope. I have argued that “chartering” should be viewed not as a separate and unequal ugly stepchild, but as a beachhead to bring new ideas into the traditional system. When I read John Barge’s “brave” position, my desire was to write him an offer. I will trade him my vote on the amendment, if he will do his own job adequately. I no longer want “local control” , I want a state takeover of ALL the schools in my district.

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John Konnop, you write that we shuld be fiscally responsible.
I AGREE!
And throwing money at failing public schools is never fiscally responsible.
We hve a thriving charter school in our neighborhood, Drew. Right next to it is the horrific public school, COAN. It was slated for closure but later allowed to stay open and a promise was made to throw more mney into that cesspool and not allow drew charter to exapand as much as it needed to.
So a charter school was servicing teh childre and the public school wasn’t, yet the failing public school got more and more and more money.
Saving failing public schools makes as much sense as saving Morris Brown College.

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Another day, another charter school bashing blog.
I’m going to search the archives to determine how many charter bashing blogs we’ve had this year. I bet there are at least thirty.
It’s all good though.
The Republicans are in power in Georgia and they want more charter schools. Also, the national PTA has endorsed charter schools wiht only ONE state out of step with the rest of the country — Georgia of course.
Georgia is the only state in the union that goes against the national PTA and it will be obvious who will win this debate, regardless how many times Get Schooled blogs bash the charter schools — they’re here to stay — even in Georgia.

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@ Ron F. and LD – Please go here and download the brief presented by Attorney General Sam Olens requesting reconsideration by the Supreme Court and WHY it is necessary. http://law.ga.gov/press-releases/2011-05-26/attorney-general-sam-olens-asks-georgia-supreme-court-reconsider-charter

And here is Judge Nahmias’ dissenting opinion which also explains the problem and the only solution…which is a Constitutional Amendment. http://scogblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/gwinnett-county-v-cox-nahmias-dissent.pdf

Believe me, if it was as simple as letting the state board continue to authorize on appeal without any concern of legal recourse by districts, the charter sector would have gladly done that instead. Unfortunately, we know that won’t work.

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@ Middle Grades Math Teacher – I’m sorry, but I just reread what you wrote…emphasis added.

“The Open Georgia website incorrectly coded several ASSISTANT Superintendent secretaries as Superintendent secretaries last year, and that is where the confusion may lie.”

Are you telling me that the man’s secretaries have secretaries? Good Lord!!!

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No. It is late and I am tired. That should read “Assistant Superintendents’ secretaries.” While I apologize for my grammatical error, I would also think that you knew what I meant with that.

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As I see it, the issue of CHARTER SCHOOLS comes down to this basic criteria. Does it PROVIDE for a Quality education for 100% of OUR Student population?
How about 50%?

If the answer is NO, to either Question. How can we in GOOD and Honest Faith as adults, even have this subject up for consideration as a TAXPAYER expenditure?

As former President Bill Clinton, stated last week at the DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION. “Folks, its ALL about the Arithmetic.” If the numbers are NOT ADDING UP, what is so hard about the decision?

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I have found that if I voice my opinion and quote un biased data that shows what a potential failure this idea seems to be, I am viciously attacked with innuendo and malicious venom from some of those who support this mis guided venture. That alone tells me this is a bad thing. The pro amendment faction cannot stand on facts, and when presented with them, they of course can’t refute them, so they attack the source. Again, an indicator of a bad idea. The facts as I see them, and I stress I, are as follows;
Anytime you loose local control and send it to an appointed board in Atlanta, nothing good can happen.

The avenues exist NOW for charters to be granted, by elected officials and governed by locally ELELECTED officials.

The avenues exist to vote out, recall and replace Board of Educations that are not responsive, and make bad decisions. And yes they do exist!

Based on a report I saw listing campaign contributions, the vast majority of the money FOR the charter amendment is coming from OUTSIDE the state. Not a good sign. If the children were the basis for these folks good will, would pour the same money to reform the present laws and make them more effective for the underperforming districts that truly need drastic change and are willing do embracing anything to get it?

I could go on. Bottom line, if this fails and I hope it does, I encourage Gov. Deal and others to put OUR money where their mouths are, and our children are!

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@ Middle Grades Math Teacher – Ok, so there are 6 Deputy Associate Supts. all making well over $100k – total is almost $750k per year for these 6, plus their secretaries puts you at over a million. Would any teacher say that all of these people are necessary for the instruction of children and that ALL of these jobs add direct value to the classroom? The principals in the schools have clerks, but I daresay none of them have a personal secretary, and the principals are killing themselves supporting the teachers, parents, and kids. I can assure you if you took that $1M and pushed it down to the schools – gave the principals some administrative support so they could focus on the curriculum and effective management and culture building, put some paras in the classrooms to lessen the student:teacher ratios for small group instruction, that would be money better spent. It’s all about priorities. Given what we are seeing with district waste (by MANY, not all), it gets tiresome hearing about their financial woes. The only woes should be coming from the school level staff who never get a piece of the pie that’s gulped up by central office bloat.

Charters deal with the school level, as THAT is where the magic happens and where the rubber meets the road.

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@ John – “I do not blame Charter USA for asking for this deal, the job of an executive is to get stock holders the highest amount of ROI. I question anyone in charge who would support this type of crony capitalism!”

I agree. And what IS the return on investment for taxpayers? It is student achievement. If the charters don’t provide that ROI, regardless of whether they are self managed or managed by an EMO, they can be shuttered.

Tell me what happens when a district doesn’t provide the ROI for taxpayers – when the investments are made into public education and it gets squandered and kids are failing. I’ve given you district after district with waste and most of these with poor achievement in the aggregate (Cherokee being an exception, as they achieve very well on the whole).

I ask you again – what is the safety net for the taxpayer if the districts don’t provide a good ROI? Nothing. Nada. Zilch. The taxpayer is out of luck. The business owner is surely out of luck, as they have no hope of a qualified work force. And most of all, the kids are out of luck, as those failing in K-12 education are in all probability destined to a life of poverty and possibly crime.

The title of the blog is a misnomer. It should be “Does K-12 Local Funding Leave Tax Payers Holding the Bag?” At least with charters there is high expectation of return on investment and a consequence if it isn’t achieved.

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@ Bernie -

Sigh. The sad thing is that you don’t see the fallacy in your own argument. Let me turn this around for you…

Are traditional public schools ensuring achievement of 100% of our kids? How about 50% of our kids? If not, then how, as taxpayers can we even THINK about continuing to invest in them?

Sir, have your seen our state’s graduation rates? It’s certainly closer to 50% than 100%.

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@bigbill, 11:54 pm
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“Mary Elizabeth 9:30 PM
I really admire the way you keep plugging away, exposing and explaining these ‘national rightwing ideological trends’ which are ‘anti-traditional public schools’ and focusing on the various strategies employed by the wealthy extreme rightwing Republican proponents of this massive, nationwide movement to privatize public schools and convert the education of our nations children and college students into profit centers for their financial benefit. For that is exactly what is happening and must be fought on every front.”
——————————————————–

Thank you for your remarks, above, bigbill, and for the additional information that you shared in your post last evening.

Every voice counts, and every voice makes a difference. We must never lose faith in that foundational tenet of our nation and in its promise to future generations of Americans. We must never fail to exercise our individual voices and to share our knowledge, especially when we see truth beneath surface spin.

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What Charter is for:

If I think that the computer systems are bad in my school system, I should be able to get grant money from the government for free, paid by tax payers, and get a no obligation, nor penalty contract that pays me a million dollars a year off the top for attempting to provide the service. How many people think this financial structure makes any sense for tax payers and if so why?

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From Charter

…… Start up capital is not provided except through a Federal Implementation Grant, for which schools may only apply allowable expenses and must first invest and then have reimbursement requests approved by the state………
…CharterStarter, Too
September 10th, 2012
2:23 pm…

As I said the ‘investment” portion was about 1 years worth of guaranteed profits from tax payers. As I said the school got free cash from tax payers matched with the first year of profit for a contract that pays them about a million dollars a year. Also if they fail, they do not have to pay back any of the federal front money or fees collected at about a million a year. Once again Charter thinks this is how contracts should be done by the government.

Is this deal not the definition of crony capitalism?

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I agrre with John. I am NOT against charters per se, but I am against THIS amendment. I think problems exist in some places that need legislation to correct them. This is just nor it.
And as he said, and when enganged is my main talking point, the place to address this issue locally is at the ballot box. IF you lose, you try again, you don’t try and change the law for the whole state to make things work for your district.

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It’s my understanding when local districts deny charters that are then approved by the State BOE, the local district keeps their local dollars, since they are not directed to fund the charter, despite the fact the local traditional public school is not educating the child. Am I wrong?

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Superintendent Barge has stated that he cannot support the Consitutional Amendment until traditional public schools are funded adequately. There is only so much money within the state’s budget to fund education, whether it is delivered to local districts or to state charter schools. One will effect the other financially, and that is why Superintendent Barge made his courageous decision in behalf of all of the students Georgia.

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“in Georgia.”

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From another link (provided below) within the link provided by John Konop, at 11:36 am:
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Beginning paragraphs of the article:

“Cherokee Charter Academy’s funding woes were quickly subdued Thursday after hearing Gov. Nathan Deal’s pledge to hand out $10 million in bridge funding to Georgia charter schools that were affected by a state Supreme Court ruling in May.

Deal’s pledge came as the local charter academy was scrambling to round up $2.9 million in additional funds to open its inaugural class as planned in August.

Lyn Carden, a board member of the Georgia Charter Education Foundation, Cherokee Charter Academy’s nonprofit governing entity, was in high spirits Thursday night when reached by phone. She said school officials have not been told how much of the pledge money the academy will receive, but she said it is its understanding the state will provide all money needed to bridge the funding gap created when the Cherokee County Board of Education denied the academy’s resubmitted charter application last month.” . . .
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Ending paragraphs of the article:

“Thursday’s action by the governor might leave the Cherokee School District impacted too. Losing students to a new school could equate to further reductions in state funding.

There was no official response released by the school system Thursday; however, school spokeswoman Barbara Jacoby earlier stated in an email on behalf of Superintendent Frank Petruzielo, ‘If all 995 students are current school district students, or kindergartners previously expected to enroll, the state funding decrease could be as much as $3.7 million for [the next fiscal year].’

The school system is already facing $26.6 million in state austerity cuts and a $9 million reduction in property tax collections.”

————————————————————-
Link to the above article, found under “similar stories,” at the end of the link provided by John Konop, at 11:36 am:

http://cherokeetribune.com/view/full_story/14707729/article-Deal%E2%80%99s-pledge-will-help-Cherokee-Charter?#

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ELMom, 12:49 pm

No, my 12:34 pm post was not written to address your post at 12:32 pm. I was researching and constructing my post while you were posting. I did not see your post until after I had posted my own remarks.

I wrote my 12:34 pm post in order to offer readers a concrete example, apllied, of my 11:35 am post’s content, which stated:

“Superintendent Barge has stated that he cannot support the Consitutional Amendment until traditional public schools are funded adequately. There is only so much money within the state’s budget to fund education, whether it is delivered to local districts or to state charter schools. One will effect the other financially, and that is why Superintendent Barge made his courageous decision in behalf of all of the students Georgia.”

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Correction: “a concrete example, applied (not apllied).”

My typing is getting rusty, I’m afraid – my apologies.

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@ Konop – You say, “Charter is was in the paper that they were on the schools that got the Obama stimulus money. Please stop spinning. You really think the government should put services up for bid with a guarantee profit and free start up money? Also no penalties or obligation to fulfill the contact? Wow you have the God given to be for crony capitalism, but people like you are why this country is so far in the red……….”

How am I spinning? I asked you a question, as I did not know the answer (and it is clear you don’t either). Now knowing to what you were referring, the state charters were in a lurch in May after the Supreme Court decision. They could no longer be funded under the structure with which they were funded -they lost almost 50% of the equivalent to their local funds through this decision, which was immediate. With kids starting school in August and teachers on the payroll, a 50% revenue cut was not something any of them could handle and sustain. So yes, the Governor provided an equalization grant to get them through that year. It was $10M spread over 16 schools and about 15,000 students (which was approximately $667 per student added to their approximately $3000 per pupil in state funds.) Please keep in mind that the state average for local funds is $3686… Meanwhile, the districts kept ALL of the local funds for kids they no longer taught. As I understand it, you, like others against this amendment, would rather students in our state, through no fault of their own, be educated on less than half of what peer students in their district would be funded at….JUST SO the districts can keep their ‘local control.” You would really want kids marginalized like that?

And as for it being “tax payer money,” these kids’ parents, grandparents, and other family members are taxpayers, too, so they are just as entitled to equitable funding as any other student and any state grants provided.

@ Eddie – Sir, do you know how much easier it would have been to go through the legislature and make a legislative change? Versus getting 2/3 of the House AND Senate to approve a Constitutional Amendment. Just from a practical sense, don’t you think we’d take the easier route if it was possible? That would be a “sure fire” way to achieve the objective of state authority/appeals body. The Amendment is up in the air until the voters decide. Who would do all the work and then choose the uncertain path?

@ EL Mom – Yes, that is EXACTLY it. HB 797 (here: http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/display/20112012/HB/797) – see lines 317-320. It shows that the districts keep ALL local funds (yes, even for kids they no longer teach.)

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2 corrections to last post –

you’re (pardon the typo)

Apply it to FURLOUGH DAYS

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In case any readers missed the article on page B1 of the “Metro”section” of today’s AJC, I would like to quote from it, for readers:

Truth-O-Meter from “PolitiFact Georgia” headline: “Finding claim for charter schools close to the mark.” The AJC PolitiFact rated Herb Garrett’s statement as “Mostly True.”
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“Herb Garrett, executive director of the Georgia School Superintendent’s Association, recently sent a letter to education officials and other interested parties noting that state special charter schools will receive more money per pupil than those attending traditonal public schools under a revised formula set by the Georgia Legislature. . . .

“In 2003, the state began the first of several austerity cuts, due to declining revenue. For four of the prior past five years, local school districts were shorted millions that they were due under the Quality Basic Education Act, the state formula for funding public education, the AJC reported in 2010. . . .

“The QBE formula gives money to schools based on each student and ‘indirect’ costs, such as administration. Georgia requires local systems to pay an amount equal to five mills of property tax generated within their taxing authority for those educational costs with the school district.

“(Maureen) Downey asked state Education Department spokesman Matt Cardoza to review Garrett’s claim that state charter schools will receive more money per pupil under the new formula.

“His answer: ‘I’ve confirmed that those numbers are correct. Our financial review team ran the numbers based on what the legislation says.’

“The AJC recentlly examined the question of which types of schools get more money. An article concluded that state-approved charter schools would get more money per pupil, citing an analysis of school funding completed for Gov. Nathan Deal, who backs the amendment. However, traditional schools will get local money that state-approved charter schools do not. In 2011, the state Supreme Court ruled state lawmakers do not have the power to grant the state authority to approve and fund charter schools over the objection of local school boards.

“In conclusion, Garrett was correct on his larger point that state-approved charter schools will get more money per pupil under the proposed amendment than traditional public schools. Garrett admitted he was incorrect about the secondary part of his clalim that state-approved charter schools are exempt from austerity cuts.

“We give Garrett a grade of Mostly True.”

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Mary Elizabeth- thanks for the article! Scary how incestuous the leadership is in the for-profit charters. Create the foundation and hire yourself….wow!

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@Middle Grades Math Teacher, 10:17 pm

You are most welcome. I have lifted the following words by educational writer Jonathan Kozol
(from the same article that I cited in my 9:44 pm post), which I think you might, also, appreciate:
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“Charter schools are, according to Kozol, a bridge toward vouchers:

In the long run, charter schools are being strategically used to pave the way for vouchers. The voucher advocates, who are very powerful and funded by right-wing foundations and families, recognize that the word ‘voucher’ has been successfully discredited…. They have now shrewdly decided the best way to break down resistance to vouchers is by supporting charters, which represents a halfway step in the same direction. One of the intentions of this, by creating selective institutions, usually with extra forms of funding, is to discredit the entire public enterprise in America. We already have the privatization of the military, as we’ve seen with the private military contractors in Iraq; we’ve seen the privatization of the prison system. Well, the next step is the privatization of public schools. It’s a matter of ideology. In rare occasions, a charter school created by teachers in the public system and in collaboration with activist parents in the community have had at least short-term success…. They tend very quickly—even when they’re started by teachers with the best intentions—to enter into collaboration with the private sector.9″
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I would alert you, as well as the reading public, to watch for voucher legislative bills that may be initiated in Georgia’s coming legislative session, especially if the Constitutional amendment for a State Commission for Charter Schools is approved in this November’s election.

I would, also, recommend that readers pay close attention to the specific legislators who might sponsor those voucher bills. Notice if any of those legislators have connections to national organizations which support the privatization of public schools, in order to better assess how political legislative bills involving vouchers may have become in Georgia.

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@ MIddle Grades Math Teacher –

The Governor’s Office ran the numbers on charter – that was discussed at length in this blog: http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/08/14/governors-deputy-charters-still-operate-with-less-funds-than-traditional-schools/

It is clear that when you look at funding holistically for a traditional district child versus a state charter student, the charter student will be (and is) funded 38% LESS.

The tax payer does not care if it is state or local funds – their tax burden has not changed. Children have to be educated. How can you argue that a district doesn’t have “enough” and then ignore the fact that charters are EDUCATING KIDS on less. One would think economy of scale would allow districts to provide services cheaper….truth is, they aren’t. Charters are more efficient.

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@ Middle Grades Math Teacher and Konop –

The problem I see with both of you and your posts is that you have a very, very narrow view of charter schools. You are focusing all of your energy around 1 school or 1 model. Go visit Pataula, Heritage, Museum School, International Community School, DeKalb PATH Academy, Fulton Leadership Academy, Brighten Academy, CCAT, Drew, Atlanta Neighborhood Charter School, Amana….

Not one of these has management companies, and not a single one uses “out of the box curriculum.” These are authentic school models and charter plans. They are making a difference with kids and in their communities.

I respect the fact that you disagree with for-profit management. You must, be consistent though, as many districts pay for-profit management companies as well. It’s just a small piece of the the education sector.

Broaden your horizons some – I think you would be pleasantly surprised at what you find.

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@ 3schoolkids -

I really appreciate you acknowledging your error on the funding piece. A few things to consider further…

I agree that there are some “fixed” costs. There are some things to consider as you think about fixed versus variable costs…

1. What is the natural trends in ebb and flow of students into and out of a school district? How much do charter(s) in that district impact this average change per year?

2. What “fixed” costs are truly unchangeable (i.e., teacher student ratios, salary scale), and which of the “fixed” costs are truly variable (i.e., the number of central office administrators).

Dr. Ben Scafidi, a well respected professor at Georgia College, produced the document attached. I encourage you to read it. It’s interesting and may give you a different perspective. http://www.edchoice.org/CMSModules/EdChoice/FileLibrary/796/The-Fiscal-Effects-of-School-Choice-Programs.pdf

As for cuts to transportation and food service – you must understand that most of the charters were not funded for either of these in the first place. Please go and check the state chartered special schools system allotment sheets (they are not in alpha order, so just scroll down). You will see that the districts earned these grants, but the majority of charters got nothing for them (other than nursing). http://app3.doe.k12.ga.us/ows-bin/owa/qbe_reports.public_menu?p_fy=2000

I appreciate the dialogue.

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@ Sneak Peek – What I SAID is that the typical tax payer won’t care if the bulk of the tax funds flow from state or local, they will care about the bottom line for expenditures on education. I am quite certain you are right that some will disagree with tax dollars going to for-profit management fees….then they will also disagree with DISTRICTS using these for-profit management companies as well, right?

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@sneak peak… Along with a few others, to keep insisting that Charter Starter reveal her identity is just subterfuge and unfair. Her identity, while maybe interesting, does not detract from the validity of her points. Either they stand on their own or don’t. Personally, she gives a voice to the parents of children who attend these schools and if not for her, we might be drowned out.

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Pardon typo. Sticky d key. And, not an.

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Last post was awful with typos – so sorry.

Now, let’s get to what the opponents keep trying to sell to the public. Their biggest (and best) argument is that the state charter schools get more in state funding. That is absolutely true in most case.

But they only ask that 1 question. They don’t ask these 2 (which would complete the picture for the public):

1. Do DISTRICTS earn more LOCAL funds than state charters? The answer to that is yes. Districts, on average earn $3,685.74 per pupil. How much do state charters earn in local funds? $0.

2. When combining local and state revenue sources, how do districts versus state charter schools compare? And as the Governor’s Office showed (by laying out the numbers), the state charters earn 62% of what the districts earn.

The opponents will say… “State charters aren’t eligible for local funds.” True. And districts are not eligible for the state charter school supplement. Districts in higher tax base areas aren’t eligible for equalization that low property wealth districts receive.

I really hope those reading on this blog think about what you are being told – which is often untrue. I also hope you think about what you are NOT being told by the opposing side. Ask tough questions. Dig deeply. Reason it out. I think you will find the opponents of this amendment have shallow reasons for being against this amendment and all tie to power and/or money. For them, it’s never been about the kids and ensuring every child has the best education our state can offer them.

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@ Sneak Peak.

Wow, you are terribly narrow minding in your thinking. You say, “I do think that when you clearly have something to gain by the passing of this amendment, that it is important that you reveal who you are. Others can then judge whether you are doing this out of true altruism or, as I believe, you have something to gain from a business perspective. You say you are an educator but yet you post very lengthy replies during the school days.”

First of all, how does anyone know that YOU don’t have some other reason for being on here vehemently opposing the amendment. You are anonymous. Silly logic.

Secondly, I taught in K-12 education for many years. I never said I was STILL teaching in K-12. Sheesh.

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@ Charter Starter, Too. I’ve been reading your posts on these blogs for some time now. I note that you’ve now moved to the logical fallacy of Argumentum Ad Hominem (attack the man not the argument). This is in addition to Shifting the Grounds of the Argument where you fail to address the questions of critics such as John Konop, Sneak Peek, Mary Elizabeth, etc., relating to state charters receiving public tax funds, but instead ask your own off-topic ones about public school funding and the taxpayers. When your critics refuse to answer these off-the-topic questions, you pour scorn on them. Note for example the very last comments of yours here to Mary Elizabeth, when your question she won’t answer relates to public alternative schools. None of this persuades me to vote for the charter school amendment!

CharterStarter, Too, on this blog-thread:
September 10th, 5:44 pm :”@ Konop – Let me try this again, as you are apparently struggling with direct questions that counter your claims.”

…Sept. 10, 6:38 pm. @ John Konop. “You and others like you (i.e, Mary Elizabeth) have no argument that can be substantiated. Your argument does not hold water when you scratch the surface. I didn’t even have to scratch.”

…11:04 pm. @ John Konop.” It is a complete waste of time to debate with someone who can’t hold up their end of the argument and has yet to answer a SINGLE question I’ve posed.”

Sept. 11, 8:09 am: “Look at the many, many times I asked Mary Elizabeth and John Konop DIRECT questions that they refused to answer…over…and over…and over…”

September 12th, 9:05 am: “@ Middle Grades Math Teacher – Let me be very clear, as you have now entered the realm of absurdity with your interpretation of my comments about central office expenditures.”

… 10:14 am. @ Sneak Peek… “Your tactic is to generalize and depend on those not carin enough to check to see if it’s true (and not just “mostly true.). My tactic is to get down to where the root of the issues are ising [?] public verifiable data and lay it out there for the public to see and make a choice based on their values and priorities.”

On the earlier blog-thread, “Another Skirmish in charter school war of words.”
September 5th, 7:05 am. “@ Mary Elizabeth – With all due respect, if you believe the districts have no motivation other than the “good of the whole”, you are very naive. I believe that comes in large part from you being somewhat protected in the classroom and at the school level from central office politics.”

On the earlier blog-thread, “Use of Words Escalates in charter school amendment fray”:
Aug. 21, “@ ME: see you’ve moved to insults yourself, Ms. Southern Belle. Is that because you can’t respond to the fact that districts use for-profit MANAGEMENT companies (with their whole focus being to manage alternative schools)?”

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Also, Charter School, Too, there is this subterfuge.

You stated on September 10th, 6:38 pm: “@ John Konop – I have a private agenda? That’s very, very funny. I’m an educator and a mom, John.” Present tense, designed to lead all who read this to think that you still are an educator. But then today you post to Sneak Peek at 11:02 am: “I taught in K-12 education for many years. I never said I was STILL teaching in K-12. Sheesh.”

Sheesh, yourself.

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@ John Konop – You should contact who ever is heading up the pro amendment campaign and request one. Bet they’d be delighted to participate in a debate.

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Let me restate my first paragraph, as I cut and pasted wrong and didn’t finish my thought.

@ Prof – Lord have mercy. You live in a box – there is evidently only one possibility for an educator, and that that is K-12 students working from 8-3. Is it just POSSIBLE that I don’t teach children or teach on a different schedule? There are all sorts of possibilities…

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@ Charter, etc. But you’re the one who posted to Sneak Peek, ” I never said I was STILL teaching in K-12.”

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@ Prof – I AM trying to influence votes. I said that clearly I wanted those undecided voters to see the full picture. I just happen to believe when you lay it all out there, that they will see the truth and the value of voting yes. That may not happen, but I hope it will.

Secondly,

1. Konop is arguing against Cherokee’s management company getting funds without accountability.
a. I showed you a whole list of ways charters are accountable for tax dollars.
b. He is bringing up “start up funding” that is put out there erroneously, so I clarified.
c. I showed you that districts are NOT accountable for their lack of prudence in spending – and there are even less checks and balances in place for this than the charters have. For him to cast a stone (which I showed was not accurate) at the charters’ lack of accountability and to ignore the mess we have with district spending and massive waste is wrong. To further that point, I showed you where that waste is and how it ties in to their ridiculous campaign arguments listed above.

You don’t want these things to all be related – but they are. I am QUITE certain the districts would prefer for me not to point them out, but it’s their data and their decision making.

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And by the way – anyone on this blog arguing for or against is trying to influence votes. Why else would you be on here?

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@ Dr. Henson. It is reassuring to know that your state-chartered special school is as fiscally transparent as you state. But I still think that John Konop is arguing a larger point than whether or not some charter schools use taxpayer funds in responsible ways.

His concerns relate to the “lack of fiscal controls in the charter school amendment” itself. And I have to say that I share his concerns here. A well-drafted law should account for every possible situation that is relevant to the law’s subject. He is pointing out some possible situations that could arise with less scrupulous state charter school operators than you are, especially important since public tax monies are involved.

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Prof,

I agree!

Charter,

….@ John Konop – You should contact who ever is heading up the pro amendment campaign and request one. Bet they’d be delighted to participate in a debate….

I have no idea but Maureen could make this happen!

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@ Charter etc. 1:22 pm:” For [John Konop] to cast a stone (which I showed was not accurate) at the charters’ lack of accountability and to ignore the mess we have with district spending and massive waste is wrong.”

This mess with district spending may be due to a lack of accountability in the laws about the ways that school districts fund their public education. But don’t you see? John Konop is trying to prevent this from happening with state charter schools which are now to be regulated with this amendment. I think he’s said elsewhere that he actually supports the idea of charter schools. I am certainly no businessman. But he sounds quite prudent to ask that this law have safeguards for the taxpayers supplying money to these charter schools to assure that the profit-making charter school doesn’t wind up holding the profit while the taxpayers are left holding the bag.

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Prof,

You are right again. That is why a real debate should be a panel of at least three people one for charter with limited rules, myself for controls that protect tax payers and 1 person against charters. That would truly represent all three sides.

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@Prof: Yes, I was being sarcastic.

Hypothetical Situation: Charter Referendum passes and we are suddenly looking at having to fund the $430 million dollar experiment which in theory is not supposed to impact local schools. Where will the legislature get the funds without ticking off their constituency?

Video Lottery. Do you think it was coincidence that question ended up on the Republican Primary Ballot?

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@ CTR. Well, I’m saying to vote it down because it’s a poorly drafted law doesn’t take into consideration all the possible eventualities. As John Konop is saying here, it fails protect tax payers when tax monies are used to fund state special charter schools. As John Barge said, it will create an expensive level of state bureaucracy that’s unnecessary. I don’t think either one is attacking the amendment because they disapprove of charter schools, but rather because of the hasty, sloppy, ill-considered way in which the amendment was created.

Maybe the solution is simply to redraft a better amendment relating to the creation of charter schools. At least all this controversy has made folks aware of possible problems that it will need to address.

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After reading the comments made in this thread, I still can’t vote for the amendment in November, and here’s why:
While I believe many in the charter schools movement have the best of intentions, sadly I think their movement has been hijacked by legislators whose intentions are anything but altruistic. Politics has taken over, and in the end both traditional public and charter schools will suffer.

Our legislature has openly admitted to NEVER fully funding public schools with the formula that very body created in the 1980’s. At a time when state revenues are down and showing little growth, the legislature has to continue cutting funding. For the past ten years, austerity cuts have been imposed to the point that now the state only provides 38% of education funding. That same body now wishes us to allow them to appoint a commission charged with approving charter schools at the state level. The legislature is breaking its own laws in current school funding, so why should we trust that they’ll honor anything else they put into law? They seem to be able to pick and choose which laws they follow. School systems should be suing the legislature.

They seem to want school systems to suffer and fail, and they will continue to reduce state funding until we are all bankrupt and begging. Recent actions by the Cherokee county delegation in the state house clearly proves that they are more than willing to manipulate in any way they can to help create chaos in what is currently a successful system while other systems like Dekalb and APS are allowed to continue to crumble. They want school systems to fail, to look bad, to fall apart. They delight in the misery of parents in failing systems because that misery makes them more willing to accept the state’s “solution”; and that solution is clearly privatization. Louisiana offers a glimpse at what our own legislature is aiming for: public tax dollars doled out in vouchers. While some support such an idea, privatization has been proven in the long run to be a bigger drain on taxpayer dollars. It just succeeds in removing citizen voters from decision-making roles.

I truly think charter schools, magnet schools, and virtual schools all have a role to play in education, and while I believe we would clearly benefit from more options tailored to the niches that need them, I don’t believe the state legislature is being anywhere near honest with us about why the constitutional amendment is needed. The “gray areas” of state law could be addressed via legislation. They’ve proven that by already passing the bills needed to fund the schools the commission might create. If they can do that, they can clarify current law and make the process for approving charter schools work as it is. Why won’t they do that? The obvious answer is that they want a way to circumvent the current system, not fix it.

Until I hear from my legislators that they plan to honor their legal commitment to funding education in this state and until they stop breaking the law and actually producing that funding, I refuse to believe pretty much anything they say. I’m also not committing my vote to allow them to create another state bureaucracy that will give them even more control over a sector of education in this state. At some point, they need to live up to current state law if they want to get my support for anything else.

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3schoolkids –

I am very sorry I missed this. I saw it awhile back and intended to check into it and frankly forgot. I have looked into it now.

I was not aware we had a charter offering corporal punishment. I called and inquired about it, and it is one of the methods the school employs. The principal said they have a form they send out notifying parents of the policy and which allows them to approve or disapprove of corporal punishment for their child. The principal said it is a common practice in the counties the school serves. I checked Calhoun County, Baker County, Randolph County,and Early County and indeed, it is practiced in all of these and they all have a policy (under Students) in their policy manuals. Clay County did not have their policy manual on their website, so I couldn’t check that one.

I am both personally and professionally not a fan of corporal punishment; however, it appears to be part of the culture in that area of Southwest Georgia.

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My name is Lyn Carden I am the board chair of the Georgia Charter Educational Foundation. I posted this early but for some reason it didn’t not land in the comment section so I am trying again. In light of the conversation I wanted to take a minute to respond.

To Konop’s first point:
Any “start-up” capitol being discussed would actually be the Federal Implementation Grant which goes to all start up schools and was actually $620,819 (not over a million). The funds were used to pay for things like desks and books. A GCEF board member sat with the GADOE official and the principal of CCA to review the use of that grant at the end of last year. The expenditures were reviewed line by line.
As a State Chartered Special School CCA receive NO MONEY from the district. The GADOE/State Board of Education is the authorizer to which CCA (and all state charter schools) are under a performance contract. Mr. Konop clearly lacks the facts and understanding of the authorization and accountability process.
As to his second point:
CSUSA receives a payment for services delivered – that is called a management fee. This fiscal year that fee is budgeted to be $891,848 equating to approximately 11% of budgeted revenue. The national average for EMOs varies but a typical rate is between 10-15%. Some EMOs charge more (upwards of 17-20%) and some less (5-7%) but for the most part, the 10-15% is the range.
Having said that, many large EMOs try (and succeed) to do what is called a “sweep agreement” which means they take all revenue that remains after the school’s annual expenditures are complete (including their management fee). Some companies request all revenues as a gross management fee but promise to reserve 2% of the state revenue for the school. CSUSA, one of the two educational management companies with schools in Cherokee County is one of the few that will only charge their management fee (approximately 11%) after ALL expenditures are covered and will donate to the school if it cannot be made whole with the revenue the school generates.
Last year in Cherokee County not only did Charter Schools USA not take a fee, they donated over a million dollars to ensure Cherokee Charter Academy was financially whole at the end of the year. This was due to the uncertainty of particular funding streams for state chartered special schools; however, the management company (CSUSA) was aware that the school was going to be in a deficit situation and made the decision they would rather take the financial hit themselves than impact what was happening in the classroom.
Only in the world of GA politics does a company investing millions IN Georgia public schools gets accused of taking millions out!!
EMOs (Educational Management Organizations) and CMOs (Charter Management Organization) can operate in several ways. They can offer a variety of services to a school. These can be back-end HR, or offer curriculum and schools can choose al-a-carte services. Other EMOs offer what is called a whole management agreement where the operation of the school is handled by the EMO and oversight is the responsibility of the board. This is the arrangement the Georgia Charter Educational Foundation has with Charter Schools USA.
CSUSA is responsible to everything from HR & finance (ensuring the bills and teachers get paid, the budget is correct, the lights stay on and staffing oversight) to curriculum and education (writing the curriculum, getting the proper text books, making sure the model is properly delivered, coordinating and/or delivering teacher training and almost everything in between) to compliance (ensuring the proper paper work gets to the GADOE and Federal in a timely manner, making sure we are meeting requirement and standards, making sure the building and kids are safe), to facilities (assisting in the identification of the building we eventually moved into, assisting in the negotiation with the lender and ensuring the facility is in compliance) to everything in between. The GCEF board is responsible for oversight (ensuring those things are properly executed) and CSUSA is responsible for everything else.
The budget and financials are approved by both the Local Governing Council (LGC) of the school and the GCEF and CSUSA can only spend within those guidelines. Monthly reports are provided to both governing entities as well as the provision of an annual audit.
As to Konop’s final point:
The final point is ridiculous but for argument’s sake let us indulge him for a moment. First and foremost it would be illegal for them to ‘take the money and run’ which is Konop’s implication. There is a management contract in place outlining appropriate “separation” process and procedure in the event that either party decides to walk away – if there would ever be a separation, it would never happen mid-year as it would breach the management contract.
As a matter of sheer business there is no way CSUSA could/would “take the money and run.” CSUSA is a national operator working with many boards like GCEF as well as local school districts in turnaround situations – something illegal like “taking the money and running” would kill its business. CSUSA manages over $300M in revenue annually so why would they risk reputation and legal ramifications for the funding Konop calls into question.
Since Konop has a)never spoken to any member of the GCEF board, our principal or EMO, b)never attended one or our meetings, or c)never requested a budget or any information on our school (for that matter) his source for “knowledgeable information” should be called into question. One might assume hearsay which is supported by the fact he went to one of CCA’s parents for his sourcing of information rather than to an official with the school – much the same way the media did when they were covering this story.

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“So are we saying let’s vote down the charter amendment because the state lacks sufficient laws to hold schools accountable for spending?”

I’d say that’s a big YES. As much as they’ve cut funding in the last ten years for public education, and since they don’t have a revenue stream I can identify to fund more schools, then they don’t need to be considering this anyway. Any ambiguities need to cleared up and all schools that receive state funding need to be held to the same standards of accountability (and yes, I include current public school systems in that list).

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“You know, the legislature and State Board can pretty much do whatever they want to do until someone presses the envelope and sues. And that is exactly why the Constitution has to be clarified. ”

We may have different angles of approach, but I think our intents are often very similar. I agree that the state’s role should be clarified, and their responsibilites enforced. It galls me that the legislature inserts itself in local issues like they did in redrawing the Cherokee BOE district lines. Their ability to choose to do that while providing less than 40% of funding is appalling at best. That’s ironic when the idea of local control is what they say they want.I don’t understand why they haven’t legislatively cleared their role up in all of this. It seems to me that they’re using the charter schools commission as a means of increasing their role and authority while potentially creating a parallel system they can’t afford to fund without taking money from somewhere else. They have legislation in place to outline funding for those schools, but can’t or won’t do the same to clarify their role in the current system. It makes me wonder if they’ll follow the law in any circumstance and what the consequences will be if they don’t.

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Ron F, 9:23 pm and 3schoolkids, 9:38 pm

The answer to both of your musings and queries, imo, lies in a deeper political understanding of what has been occurring. I have tried to point the way toward that understanding. You might want to read “bigbill’s” post, on this thread, Sept. 10th at 11:54 pm.

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Thank you Mary Elizabeth for your information I was aware of the national trend but am curious as to Charter Starter, Too’s opinion on WHY we need a state charter commission instead of the GA DOE. Does she feel the GA DOE is not doing a good job with assisting the existing State Special Charters? If not, why not? Since she said has been involved in the process of a startup charter school I would like to know.

BTW I found the pdf outlining closed charter schools for the whole country listed by state. Here is the link:
http://www.edreform.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/CER_FINALClosedSchools2011-1.pdf

The list is quite staggering.

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NO MORE CHARTER SCHOOLS!

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So here are a couple of questions with the answer key provided.
For how long has Georgia had a Republican Governor?
Answer: For 9 Years
For how long has Georgia had both a Republican House and Senate?
Answer: For 7 Years
For how long has Georgia had a Republican Superintendent of Schools?
Answer: For 9 Years
Has your classroom become better or worse during this time? You know the truth to this one.

Do any teachers or their families vote for Chip Rogers (Woodstock-R)? Isn’t he the rep. who is always supporting charter schools and vouchers?

So before write anything else, the following should be noted.

I am not saying that he might be benefitting from charter and voucher funds.

And I am not saying that his friends might be benefitting from charter and voucher funds.

And I am not saying that he or his extended family members might be benefitting from charter and voucher funds.

However, maybe someone in Cherokee should start checking exactly to whom these funds are going and benefitting. Look into the list of names. Go into the employee listings to look for the people who are benefitting. And I am sure that neither Chip Rogers, his friends, or his family members (spouses or otherwise) will be affiliated with them.

But something is rotten in the county of Cherokee.

It would make sense if Cherokee was a really underperforming county, but it’s not.
2011 SAT SCORES out of 2400
Georgia 1,445 Woodstock High-1,529 (Chip’s High School District)
National 1,500 Woodstock High-1,529 (Chip’s High School District)
The other Cherokee County High Schools
Etowah-1,608 Creekview-1,586 Cherokee-1,559 Sequoyah-1,542

Does something not make sense here?

And again, I am not saying that Chip Rogers from Woodstock, supporter of charter school bills and vouchers has done anything wrong.

But why is he pushing so strongly for something at a state level that his local constituency doesn’t really need?

Why is Chip Rogers wanting charter schools and vouchers so badly then? I am sure he is not doing this for personal reasons or personal gain.

So why push for a diversion of funds from your public schools that are succeeding and exceeding?

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Go check the demographics of Woodstock from the last 10 years.

Maybe this is why so much push for separate schools is coming around.

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@OnTeacher… I do live in Coweta. My school system is failing and I like “the different” I’m fighting for. It’s benefiting my son greatly. Rather than demagoguery, go see Cherokee or Coweta County. Maybe we have different measures of what constitutes “failing”. And why must I wait till the school has failed my child, when I can prevent it and go to a charter. If charters were equal, if not worse, as you say, then parents (politicians aside) wouldn’t be fighting so hard for them.

Houdini math? No. The school keeps the local dollars despite not teaching the child. That’s nearly $4k they keep. Net gain.

Again, I’ve always said it’s not a Magic Bullet. Just a choice. I don’t subscribe to one size fits all solutions, but that’s what traditional public schools are, and trust me, they don’t fit my kid. If this amendment fails, locally approved charters remain. Charters are here to stay. So quit blaming 16 schools for furloughs and funding shortages. Georgia is in the top 10 for per pupil spending, so please stop using these 16 schools as scape goats.

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CTR,

In all due respect you should consider the following:
1) The cost to educate all students are not the same ie special needs, high school more expensive than elementary…….Cherokee Charter does not provide service for High School and is mainly elementary. Also Cherokee Charter does have the ratio expense of special needs that the public school has especially the most expensive students to educate requiring very low teacher ratios as well as highly trained teachers that cost more.
2) Lower income parents have a more difficult issues with providing transportation for students…..
3) We are creating duplicate overhead if not coordinated well the local school district
4) Cherokee County Schools has on line classes now and they are working on a home school/ public school option
5) Cherokee County also is rolling out stem schools that allow students to specialize by area ie math and science, arts and vocational. They have already started in the elementary grades for math and science.
6) Your business model does not consider fix cost tax payers already invested into infrastructure. It will cost tax payers more for under utilizing the current infrastructure. That is why I have been promoting increasing cross utilization not creating more infrastructure.

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Cherokee Charter and Coweta Charter: Governing Board is Georgia Charter Educational Foundation formed in FLORIDA in 2009 with offices in Florida and Canton, Georgia. Revenue for 2011 was over $2,000,000 with assets of $515,000. They are the “central admin” for these 2 charter schools.

Their sister organization-Florida Charter Educational Foundation had revenues is excess of $11,000,000 in 2011 with assets of over $7,000,000. Anyone who thinks a charter school doesn’t have “central admin” costs that don’t reach the classroom is fooling themselves.

This is the “governing layer” between the charter school board (principal, parents, community business leaders), and the Charter Schools USA management.

Anyone who thinks charter schools don’t have “central admin” costs that don’t make it to the classroom is fooling themselves.

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@CTR you need to study the issue just a little more. Who has told you the funding will not continue? Your Charter School? Please read HB797, the funding mechanism is already in place and took effect in July of this year. It stays in place regardless of passage of the charter referendum. The Supreme Court ruling calls into doubt the ability of the State to establish a state charter school and fund it with local funds. Yes, State Special Schools lost their ability to earn local funds with that ruling. However, HB797 establishes the framework to fund the schools using state funds only (no local dollars used). It stands regarless of whether the referendum passes.

There is a cruel irony here. Charter Starter, Too has referenced a state charter on this blog, Patuala Academy, which is succeeding in an area where the local public schools have not. They have little admin cost (no magement layer or separate non-profit governing board to run the school). They are a good example of what a charter school model can do. However, their long term success and funding is ironically being jeopardized by the charter interests backed by the corporate management companies and their “non-profit” governing bodies, like Charter Schools USA. They cannot separate themselves from that. The pro charter argument is “cronyism and central admin costs” of the local district boards and yet they fail to see why voters have a problem with shifting admin costs to a for profit company and it’s chain of “non-profit” governing boards.

And then there is the question of an appointed State Charter Commission authorizing these schools instead of the GA DOE. Why is that needed? No one is answering that question.

Why do we need that extra layer of management if the GA DOE is already serving the state special charter schools?

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@CTR So you are in Coweta arguing about Cherokee’s issues?

“Demagoguery? Demagoguery? Demagoguery?”

I am stating facts.

So where does the funding come from to support charter schools?

Abracadabra sources?

State some facts where it will come from and supply the input as to how it will not come from the funding of Georgia Public Schools.

“Why must I wait till the school has failed my child, when I can prevent it and go to a charter?”

Why must your student not get taught by Stephen Hawking IN CASE he fails Algebra? If we are going to deal with “IN CASE” situations, we should be worried about a great deal more than just charter schools.

And am I blaming charter schools for funding shortages? No.

However, I am stating that they will and do add to the problem of funding. And if more are implemented, more funding issues will occur.

Abracadabra funding or real funding? Which is it?

Here is another FACT for you . The funding still comes from tax dollars, one way or the other.

So, what it really boils down to is that you like your child’s charter school and are an advocate for it.

I get it.

However, many like their public schools and don’t want their children to lose funding. You know the real money that the state has to provide instead of the funding that you don’t think matters.

Does your child go to one of 48 Charter Schools USA locations with over 40,000 students under its umbrella?

I am sure that the managing company isn’t in it for a profit and is doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

I am sure that they won’t try to make the most money from the state funding once they gain a large control of charter schools.

Educating kids should be a business after all.

But IN CASE they do take over the reins of schools, what happens if they don’t perform as promised?

But that won’t happen right, because then, we can simply hire another company to teach kids and hope for the best.

Let’s have a charter fire and police department as well IN CASE they are not doing well.

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“So if this amendment fails, they can not be “state charter schools” so they can’t get the funding.”

If that’s the case, then they will need to reapply for a charter to fix that designation. If they have worked well and have established a good working relationship with their host districts, then there should be no problem getting them approved- provided there is money in the local budget to contribute to them. If not, then they can appeal to the state board, as was the case with FSA in Fulton, which appealed even though there were serious questions about financial matters that Fulton eventually uncovered. They were offered a five year charter by Fulton before the financial issues were discovered, which they declined and appealed to the state board for a ten year charter. The process worked as it is designed to work. Had there been a state commission to appeal to, then ultimately they would have become the final decision maker, which is yet another layer removed from true local control in my opinion.

I realize many local boards aren’t going to approve charters. Ironically, as the state legislature pushes for this amendment and says it wants schools to get approval locally as much as possible, that very body has cut education funding to the point that most districts, especially those beyond the metro area, will have no choice but to deny charter applications because they are barely making budget for the current system now. The legislature has no intention of restoring any of that funding, ever as far as I can tell, so what they really seem to want is for local districts to deny charter applications so they become the largest authorizer. This will give them direct control of what I believe will be a significant number of schools, and yet another excuse to cut traditional public education funding still more. Their intent, in my opinion, is to slowly starve even the successful systems out of existence so that everyone will be dependent on a state controlled system. This becomes an end-run around the constitution that stipulates local control, and allows them to bring in any management company(ies) they like. Unfortunately, the charter school movement may become a carefully controlled game for the state legislature to finally achieve one big step in its goal to privatize education.

And that is precisely why I will not vote for the amendment in November.

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@CTR: And what of the crisis in our state charter schools? Will it be averted or sped up by passage of the referendum? You are familiar with Odyssey Charter and GCA? Thousands of students whose education is in jeopardy because they could not remedy their IDEA non-compliance issues. Isn’t this a crisis? Or is it only a crisis if they don’t have somewhere else to go?

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CTR: Oh I absolutely believe the need for change in our education model isn’t going away, no matter what. In fact, I think regardless of what happens with the amendment, the push is on to reform education. If nothing else, the state funding reduction has forced many systems to a state of more realistic monetary management, and that isn’t all bad. But I also believe we’ve only seen the beginning of the funding battle, regardless of how much economic recovery we see in coming years. As a veteran teacher, I can’t wait to see public education finally make some substantive changes. I don’t think the plan currently supported by the legislature has anything to do with improving current public schools.

I know of numerous charter schools that are doing quite a good job. I’m not against them at all. I think they have an important role in helping to push reform in current public schools systems that parents and teachers have been looking for for quite a while. There are groups within the current system that can clearly benefit from specialties that charter schools can much more quickly and efficiently provide. I don’t want to shut down the former commission approved schools close if they are successful. They need to get busy getting the applications in so they can get approval to continue, and perhaps with better funding if they get local approval. I’m a committed public school teacher who works with at-risk and needy students. I see kids in all sorts of special designations that I would love to be able to help start a school or magnet program to help. Innovation HAS to happen, but I don’t think giving the legislature carte blanche to appoint a commission that will have the authority to approve schools without any voter input is the answer. As much as I question them, my intent is to understand, not to just naysay charter schools. I absolutely do NOT trust our legislature in sum total right now, and I firmly believe their intents are far from noble in wanting this amendment.

I’m not just a skeptic, I’m a flat-out unapologetic anti-politician at this point in life. I wouldn’t trust a legislator is he was blood kin at this point. And I really hate to see charter schools become another weapon in their arsenal to create a state-run system that touts local control while focusing more and more power for establishing them at the state level via an appointed commission that is as far removed from voters as they can make it. I think you should be able to keep your charter school, and if it’s working and the local board doesn’t support it, then the state BOE should and I believe likely will.

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“Their (legislators’) intent, in my opinion, is to slowly starve even the successful systems out of existence so that everyone will be dependent on a state controlled system. . . .Unfortunately, the charter school movement may become a carefully controlled game for the state legislature to finally achieve one big step in its goal to privatize education.”
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Please understand that this is not all legislators. This is a national Republican goal. Republican legislators, primarily, are the ones who have the “goal to privatize education.” Moreover, if you read the links I had suggested regarding “ALEC and Charter Schools,” you will have noticed that it is not simply Georgia’s legislature that is trying to privatize public education, but Republican dominated legislatures in states throughout the nation, often with ALEC’s encouragement and help. Thus, this is a much more political undertaking in Georgia than simply wanting more educational control at the state level over the local level. Republican legislators in Georgia are, evidently, coordinated with, and connected to, a national Republican agenda of privatizing education throughout the nation. ALEC has many corporations among its members. Privatizing education will, imo, ultimately lead to an educational industry that will be a means of greater profit to some corporations, and certainly much more so than is present within traditional public schools, which are primarily not based on profit.

If you wish to stop this privatization of public education, especially since there is so much power and money behind it, then I believe you must vote the Democratic ticket in November in elections in Georgia, as well as in the national election. Although some Democratic legislators in Georgia do support the Constitutional amendment, most do not. However, most Republicans do support it. And, many of them are members of ALEC, a national organization with national goals.

I heard the Chairman of Georgia’s Educational Committee (a Republican) say publicly, “We are going to pass this amendment bill,” before the vote was even cast. His mind had been made up as to the outcome of that bill, whatever citizens had to say in their public speeches to the House Education Committee, on that day of the Committee’s meeting during the last legislative session. Georgia’s Republican legislators, imo, are entrenched in this privatization of education movement. If you want to sustain and improve traditonal public education, then you must vote the Democratic ticket to have any real chance of turning this movement around in Georgia. We must change legislators. I do not believe that the present Republican legislators will change in this regard. Your vote will make the difference.

Traditioinal public education can be improved, but it must be better funded, and programs must be developed to improve it – with genuine commitment from Georgia’s leaders. Public charter schools, working with and through local school districts, can help in this regard. Former Gov. Zell Miller made a genuine commitment to public education and to public school teachers. As a result, under his leadership, legislation was passed that helped to improve traditional public education in Georgia.

Moreover, I do not want my tax dollars, that were previously used for public education, being used to enhance the profit margins of some corporations that have latched onto the “educational industry.” I imagine that there are other senior citizens, without school-aged children, as well as childless couples, and singles without children who, likewise, do not want their tax dollars – that had been meant for the “public good” through public education – used to enhance the profit margins of corporate interests of quasi-private “public” schools. If some parents desire to send their children to these quasi-private schools, then they should pay for them from their taxes, and not from the taxes of those citizens who do not have children in public schools and who, especially, do not support the gradual privatization of public schools, which will enhance the profit margins of private corporations.

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@ Ron. F. – Hi, Ron!

Mary Elizabeth continues to bring up ALEC, as if it’s some kind of conspiracy. First of all, the legislature has not been driving this alternative authorizer agenda. They have picked it up from parents and community members, and yes, businesses tired of having an unqualified work force and have carried the ball because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE ELECTED TO DO on behalf of their constituency. Hundreds and hundreds of parents have shown up to rally, talk with legislators, call, and write asking for support of charters. Honestly, before Mary Elizabeth brought up ALEC, I had never heard of them, which is odd, because I’ve been engaged in this movement for a very long time. Nonetheless, I found them online – here is the home website: http://www.alec.org/. Here is their mission statement: The mission of ALEC’s Education Task Force is to promote excellence in the nation’s educational system, to advance reforms through parental choice, to support efficiency, accountability, and transparency in all educational institutions, and to ensure America’s youth are given the opportunity to succeed. They have a board of legislators and a Private Enterprise Board of some of the largest corporations in our country: http://www.alec.org/about-alec/private-enterprise-board/. Corporations have a vested interest in education, given the need for work ready and capable employees. These corporations employee thousands and thousands of people and pay umpteen billions in taxes, which impacts the economy and all of us. Why is this such a big “conspiracy” with Mary Elizabeth? There is no difference with the legislators’ affiliation than with the teachers’ affiliation with NEA, GAE, or PAGE. They are organizations with a shared purpose.

It sounds so logical to say, “the state charges can just reapply and if denied, appeal to the state board.” And yet, we have 2 issues with that: 1) Some have and were denied. Case in point: Heritage Preparatory Academy reapplied to APS – is out of the box performing higher than the schools they serve…denied. Ivy Preparatory Academy was “adopted” for 1 year, and despite outstanding achievement, their charter was not renewed. So just go to the state in the future…right? Superintendent Barge said he COULD NOT SUPPORT MORE CHARTERS UNTIL OUR DISTRICTS ARE “FULLY FUNDED.” (Never mind if they are using what they have efficiently or not, but I digress…) It stands to reason, based on his statements, that the Department of Education, under his directives, will recommend to the SBOE denial of all state chartered special school applications. The only way to ensure at least a fair shot is to have a Commission that is not affiliated with Mr. Barge, who is deeply tied to the district superintendents and ALL of their associations.

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@ John Konop – I agree almost wholeheartedly with your post about efficiency (i.e., group purchasing, using facilities taxes have already paid for more effectively by sharing, etc.) We are not far off at all. Here is what you need to know…

Charters for YEARS have been asking districts to share underutilized or unused facilities. Across the nation we see districts sharing facilities or allowing use by charters – but Georgia districts just wouldn’t. Districts have refused over and over and over. They stored materials, put professional development in there, part time programs, bus parking….anything but allowing charters to use a facility already paid for with tax dollars for the intended purpose. It took HB 555 to get the districts to even start thinking about doing this. And even still, it has taken the threat of lawsuits to get them to comply with that law (they like to use a really narrow definition of “unused” to apply for things like what I mention above). I will say that APS has been really great from the onset of HB 555 (but not before) with allowing use of facilities. DeKalb is FINALLY starting to open up. That’s it. Note, however, that charters stared by districts (i.e., Gwinnett’s Math and Science) were not only allowed to use district facilities, but were given MILLIONS for a state of the art one. That’s how it rolls with the charter sector. Districts take care of “their own” and to hell with the rest of the kids. They can be in substandard facilities without gyms or playgrounds. Sorry, but it’s true.

As for group purchasing – one would think that districts would realize the that allowing charters to go with them on group purchasing would lower THEIR costs. But again, that happens very infrequently. Most of the charters can purchase from district warehouses. Charters aren’t able to share the costs (usually) of speech therapists, OT, PT, etc. either, which would save EVERYONE money. The districts generally say no. Again, APS is better about this than most (giving credit where credit is due).

I want you to understand the real picture of what happens and why districts have a clear and present conflict with authorizing charters and why they not only frequently deny, but even when they approve, they treat them as step children and nearly starve them to death. It’s so interesting to me to hear districts crying about not enough money to educate kids, but charters are doing it for 74% of what the districts are WITHOUT economy of scale. How does that make any sense?

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@ Konop – Apologies. This should have said: Most of the charters CAN’T purchase from district warehouses.

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The above is “local control” working to its fullest.

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Sorry – it’s been a few days since I’ve been able to get on and I was catching up. And I really care a lot about the charter sector, so I try to clarify as much as I can.

Not sure what you mean about Cherokee County School Board? I don’t live anywhere near Cherokee County.

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Borrowing from Dwight Eisenhower, we have an “Educational – Industrial Complex” in this country.

Facts are the facts. 2+2 = 4 whether it comes from Charter Starter, Too (by real name or alias) or anybody else.

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@ Ron F. – I believe that FSA had similar deficiencies to any other school in this state. Do I think that they were fairly shut down? No. Do I think that the “charges” trumped up were “proven?” Emphatically No. Here are a few reasons why:

1. The district offered to APPROVE them for 3 more years. Now, if they were THAT egregious, why would they have offered to do that? Plus, how did they go on for 10 years without the district ever raising these concerns? They had an independent audit every single year. They had to provide their staffing every single year. The district could have walked in at any time for any reason. Do I think FSA should have taken the 3 years – yes, but you have to understand that they previously had a 10 year charter, were a Blue Ribbon School, AND had a broad flexibility waiver. The district was actually offering less than the law even stipulates is a term for a charter.

2. The “audit” conducted was disputed by a national audit firm that was pretty forthright about how poorly conducted Fulton’s audit was and how outside of standards for forensic audits it fell.

3. The district’s own attorney acknowledged that FSA’s arrangement was NOT a conflict of interest. And indeed, if that arrangement was, then one must wonder how Robert Avossa can sit on the board of Metro RESA, pay tens of thousands of dollars in fees and services to them, and that not be considered the very same conflict?

4. FSA was very transparent – putting every single document on their website for the public to review.

5. The district never found any affiliation at all with the Gulen Movement, which was never stated outright, but was clearly an undercurrent in the whole situation.

6. Information handily got “leaked” to the media by Fulton County and the DOE…even before the school was notified.

7. Fulton County put up a $6M dollar barrier for anyone to prove they handled this situation unethically.

Now, let’s address the “financial situation” you continue to mention. I ask you this, how can you say that the districts don’t have “enough” to educate kids properly if they cannot substantiate efficient spending of what they have in state and local funds? Look at it this way…if I choose to purchase a $500,000 house and I was making $75,000 a year and got a 15% cut, taking me down to $63,750, I would not be in a very good position to argue with not having “enough” to cover my bills. I couldn’t afford to live in that $500,000 house to begin with, much less with a cut.

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@ Prof – Then don’t read it.

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Interestingly, I was just going to quote from this very AJC article, but I noticed something different to bring to people’s attention here. From p. 10, section A:

“Bert Brantley, spokesman for Families for Better Public Schools… said [the organization] won’t launch a statewide television blitz before the Nov. 6 vote. Instead it will use local or regional speakers to talk up the amendment.”

Is that why these blogs on the charter amendment are blanketed with CharterStarter, Too’s posts that all repeat the same off-topic points about charter schools, late into the night as well as all day long?

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Oh, and by the way, please go back in time on Maureen’s blogs and you will see that I have been active on issues related to education, particularly chartering long before the Amendment came about. Mary Elizabeth – I just noticed you on here since the Amendment….wonder why?

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@ Charter, Etc.

No, I can’t beat your record!

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@ Prof – Well, Ms. Mary Elizabeth is just as dogmatic on the other side as I am (and certainly just as repetitive – geez, she can take Thomas Jefferson across every forum!) Does that make her someone paid from the other side? Of course not. We both just care a lot about our positions and want to make sure that people have a balanced view to consider.

Sir, do you know how much money school districts have funneled into their advocacy organizations over the years – TAX MONEY? MILLIONS. It was over $2M alone last year. Please do not even begin to talk to me about money for advocacy. People in this state AND NATION are pretty tired of what is going on in public education. Not only did foundations put some money behind reform, but so did parents. Tell me what parents have paid to support the nonsense going in in the district’s efforts. Nada. Not one parent was on their list.

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@ Mary Elizabeth –

Check out Vincent Fort’s donations for his election….looks like GAE gave him some moolah…

2010
In 2010, Fort received $166,393 in campaign donations. The top contributors are listed below.[7]
[hide]Georgia State Senate 2010 election – Campaign Contributions
Top contributors to Vincent Fort’s campaign in 2010
AFSCME $4,800 (American Federation of State and County Municipal Employees – the government equivalent to ALEC.
Teamsters $4,400
Fort, Vincent $4,298
Georgia Federation Of Teachers $3,600
Georgia Association Of Educators $3,400
Total Raised in 2010 $166,393

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@charter starter 2- ha ha. Your comment is hilarious and funnily enough, very infantile. Sounds like something a 6 yr old would say on the playground. Thanks for the ”teachable” moment. I think I hit a nerve very close to the truth.

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@ Prof – the difference is that the points I bring out about the individuals happen to be true, and relevant.

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$2 Million last year? HAH … I can’t count the ways that tax dollars are funneled into special advocacy groups and campaigns.

Almost every board member in the state went to the GSBA conference on the tax payer dime where one of the distinguished speakers spent their time slot on how to defeat the Charter School Amendment.

http://georgiaschoolwatch.wordpress.com/2012/08/30/reformation-and-the-charter-school-amendment/

Most school districts spend BIG BUCKS on pro ESPLOST campaigns.

etc …

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@CS2-Ha-Ha. Your comment if hilarious and, funnily enough, exactly what you would hear a 6yr old say on the playground. Thanks for the “teachable” moment. I think I hit a nerve with my earlier comments.

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@ Prof – I was not making a nasty comment to Sneak Peak….I was (rather ironically) pointing out that they don’t use their real name, either. Why not? Because there is no reason to – it’s a blog. The mention of it by SP is absurd and a bit “pot calling the kettle black.”

My reference to Vincent Fort’s campaign was to show that he, opposing the amendment, gets “special interest group” contributions. Mary Elizabeth likes to point to for-profit and special interest groups against the amendment. My point, which IS relevant, that special interest groups and for profits invest in others, too.

YOU, do the same thing, basically telling me I’m “irrelevant,” “repetitive,” etc…. you can’t seem to debate any of the points I bring up though. You don’t carry a lot of credibility using this tactic, buddy-o.

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@ Sneak a Peak – You didn’t hit a nerve. You can’t refute anything I say…so you resort to trying to figure out who I am. And ironically, YOU are anonymous, too. Bizaare.

You see, folks, the opposing side likes to bring up things that look “scccccaaaarrrrry.” Like…oh my gosh, FOR PROFIT management companies. But then they shut up like clams when you show that school districts have spent millions on for profit management companies, too.

If you’re going to dispute the Amendment, fine, do it. But at least be smart enough not to have a reason that makes you look like 1) a hypocrite 2) power hungry 3) money hungry protecting your own “sweet” situation and that of your buddies. The voters are smarter than that. At least MENTION what’s good for kids.

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“1) a hypocrite 2) power hungry 3) money hungry protecting your own “sweet” situation and that of your buddies.”

See, I don’t think those supporting public education can all be lumped into that category. As you point out, there’s waste in public education. Has been for years, and all the shouting about it to the legislature has netted us NOTHING- and trust me, those of us on the inside have been calling it out for a long, long time. The only defenders of the “status quo” are part of the greed themselves, and I don’t see any of them posting here. The only thing the legislature has shown any interest in is redrawing Cherokee’s BOE district lines while they do NOTHING about any of the screamingly obvious problems in Dekalb, APS, et. al. There’s much the legislature could do, and should do, but they won’t, and I don’t understand why. So their solution is wrapped up in this constitutional amendment. I can’t think of a reason to support it with so much political manuvering involved, and I think Barge is right- we don’t need state funded charter schools until we figure out what the bottom line is for education funding.

Yes, there are many problems, and I honest to God hope more systems will have to endure the cutting to the bone that mine has while striving to still provide a successful education for our kids. Until the legislature either makes good on their legal obligations to fund and comes up with a formula for doing it, I’m not going to give them a chance to do anything else that will, in the end, cost money we don’t have as it is.

As to the FSA audit, I’m sure you could have a slew of teams of auditors look at the same data at the same time and come to different conclusions. If there weren’t something going on there, then nothing would have been found. And if this was some sort of “witch hunt” by the county, and numbers were misrepresented or fabricated, then there should be a lawsuit in the making. And yes, I agree that public school systems should be held to the same standards. As I recall, when illegal use of funds has been found, it’s been prosecuted. I agree there needs to be change, and I think a lot of if could happen if we’d quit trying to reinvent the wheel or come up with what I see as a means to eventually create an entirely state-run education system. I know there are good charter schools out there, and I hope they can find the means to continue their work. But if the legislature wants to spell out how it will approve and fund those schools while leaving us with a shrug and “we’ve never fully funded QBE anyway”, then they aren’t getting my support for the amendment.

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Mr Konop..I commend you on giving us information like this. There are many parents out there who oppose any type of voucher or charters. These ideologies are being thrown at us when we all know that improving education comes from improving our LOCAL SCHOOLS!! Im tired of the likes of self proclaimed education reformers like Michelle Rhee (who by the way only taught for 3 years) and became chancellor of DC schools only to have her policies changed by the next in line. For shame for more wasteful spending by our government!!!

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@CS2-I am not hiding behind anything. I will gladly post under my name and then you can look me up and find only that I am a stay-at-home parent who cares deeply about protecting public education for the sake of not only my own children, but everyone’s child who cannot afford to pay for a private education or home school. Do I believe in the status quo, as the reformers will always yell back, heck NO!. I don’t believe that public education is perfect and it has a long way to go to serve the needs of all. But I do believe in the principals by which public education stands for and protecting that. Charter schools do not serve all and do turn the undesirables away from their doors. There is countless reports of the different ways by which they cherry pick. I don’t believe in adding another layer of bureaucracy-especially our Georgia legislators who have shown that they do NOT value public education. I don’t believe that charter schools perform better than their traditional counterparts. I will say that I am not against the idea of charter schools in the form of which they were initially created but I think that vision has been distorted in order to line the pockets of our politician’s friends and donors. I do believe that through this blog, you have, with almost maniacal tendencies, tried to brow-beat anyone who disagrees with the profiteers vision (to make as much money off the backs of our children-they claims it’s for the children when it’s for the MONEY). It makes me sad when the reformers decry the teacher for the generous salaries and supposedly cadillac benefits when the for-profit companies and their CEO’s can make millions of dollars at the taxpayers expense without a blink of an eye. After all, it’s the American way. I hear you when you say there is a layer of for-profit already built into the public school system and by that I am assuming that you mean the book publishers, computer program vendors, etc… I understand that but they usually bid for these opportunities. This is not the case with charter schools. But what are schools districts to do? Publish their own books and create their own computer software? If public schools were in a position to be a 100% closed system and provide all that is used in the school, you and yours would be the first to decry that they had a monopoly on all that goes on behind the school doors.

I believe in strengthening the current school model but it will take time and effort. I think we have a LOT to learn from others, like Finland. Their school model, the most successful in the world, is so far removed from the way we are going.

In a nutshell CS2, I will gladly post under my own name and challenge you do to the same.

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@ Ron – I don’t think everybody opposing the Amendment fits the 3 categories I mentioned. I don’t, for example, think you do. You disagree, have a reason that is not hypocritical, greedy, or power hungry. That’s why I have said before that I respect your comments, even if we disagree. I am very tired, however, of the ridiculousness that is posted out here that DOES fit those 3 categories. It’s silly and unproductive. And it does nothing to move the conversation forward. I end up repeating myself over and over because the same nonsense is brought up over and over by the same people.

The legislature tried to do some things in the last session to support districts. For example, they got rid of the 65% rule (which I personally think was a HUGE mistake), but, they were getting push from districts on flexibility. They did some clean up and revisions of Title 20 and plan to do even more substantive ones this session that will help. They aren’t doing “nothing” for education. The districts, unfortunately do not help themselves either sometimes. The situation with the budget is a real one -the state’s coffers are lower. The districts could be a lot more prudent with their spending than they are, as I’ve been trying to show everyone.

Do you mind telling me in what district you live? If it’s a good one, it needs to be heralded. I’m not here to say every one of them stink. They don’t. The good ones need to be put up to emulate.

@ Sneak a Peak – You say, “I am a stay-at-home parent who cares deeply about protecting public education for the sake of not only my own children, but everyone’s child who cannot afford to pay for a private education or home school.”

Do you not realize that is EXACTLY what I am trying to do, through the provision of federal and state law, which is chartering. Charter schools are PUBLIC SCHOOLS. They serve about 50% FRL and minority children.

I’m not the bad guy here. I do NOT want our public education system to be replaced. I want districts to be PUSHED to do RIGHT by children and educators. I’ve said this before, Sneak a Peak, our school system is in a state of inertia – they are not going to change until something pushes them hard enough to change. Charters are calling attention to achievement issues. They are calling attention to district waste and bloat. This isn’t a BAD thing, it’s a GOOD thing – if the districts get pressed on this, they will make changes in what they do, and that will positively impact kids and funds that flow to the classrooms. But you’ve got to let the push on them happen. They won’t fix themselves – they have had money dumped on them by the state and feds for “school improvement” and all you see is more people hired at CO in the way of “coaches” and “instructional specialists” and “instructional supervisors” and the like, more educational consultants, more programs, etc., etc. There is no real change in achievement – only more money out the door. They have yet to get to the root of the problem. Honestly, I wish the charter movement was never even NEEDED, but it is, so it’s here, and I am fighting like hell for my kids and yours, too, as well as my educator friends and every other educator in this state that deserves better. We need to use chartering to make things better. Is that painful? Yes. But it MUST be done.

Believe me, I will not for one minute say every charter is perfect. They aren’t. I believe in shutting those down (just like I believe we should shut down persistently low achieving traditional schools, too). But they ARE achieving higher than the districts where they are – they ARE making a difference. And they ARE more economical for the taxpayer. There IS demand for them. And parents and community members DO demand them.

I really am an educator, and I really am a charter mom. The charter sector in Georgia is rather small though, so I prefer to remain anonymous. You can certainly think I am rotten for staying anonymous, and that’s ok. I respect a lot that you are willing to put your name out there, but also respect your anonymity.

Now, can we get past the personal insults and just debate the issues at hand?

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“They are calling attention to district waste and bloat. This isn’t a BAD thing, it’s a GOOD thing – if the districts get pressed on this, they will make changes in what they do, and that will positively impact kids and funds that flow to the classrooms.”

I agree with you on that!!

That is a big part of what needs to change, and I think it will have to as the state continues its neverending austerity plan. I just don’t see how another charter school authorizer is going to improve or speed up that process. All it will do in the long run is create faster and deeper austerity cuts as the state tries to find the funds to implement what its legislation for funding those state approved schools stipultates. But then, they haven’t funded any form of education according to its legislated formula for over two decades as it is. And the charter amendment supporters trust them now? I don’t know how you find the heart for that.

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Yes, please elaborate. I just got home from working yet another 12 hour day in my classroom. I wonder if that is one of those things the people are “pretty tired of”… I know I am.

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@CTR and all readers

The article she refers to is being splashed across multiple news sites across Georgia. NO…this is not a lobbying stunt.

Oh wait….B.J. Van Gundy…

He is a former politician,
and runs a a lobbying firm that has……………..

Georgia Charter Schools Association AS A CLIENT.

Isn’t this right CS2 and CTR?

CS2….and CTR….Come on….you don’t work for one of these groups or volunteer for them do you?

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CharterStarter Two….your propaganda is sickening. Just admit you hate public schools and favor vouchers (and most likely – segregation).

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I’m getting in way late on this, due to a very busy week.

One Teacher’s Voice posted, “‘the compensation they earn in exchange for the service they perform is worth the money, which is at a greatly reduced cost to the tax payer.’

Show me the facts on that last statement. Opening a new school, with administrators, teachers, utilities…etc. is more cost effective than utilizing the structure and staff that is already present?”

OK, I’ll show you the facts. The whole conversation can be seen at http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/08/21/our-politifact-georgia-team-looks-at-john-barge-and-charters-not-much-of-a-flip/?cp=all. Specifically, on August 29, 2012, at 3:05 PM, I demonstrate exactly what you’re asking for: a real start-up charter school (Provost Academy Georgia), leveraging significant innovation (virtual learning + experienced public school teachers delivering it + a hybrid option for high-risk students) along with its partnership of a contracted education services provider (for-profit in this case–EdisonLearning, Inc.), compared to a district high school with the same enrollment:

The school pays the education services partner $250,000 annually (regardless of our enrollment numbers) as a fee for professional services. They do not “manage” our school–that is my job, along with my two fellow administrators. We have a five-year contract with the company during which time our annual fee for services will stay level. If we meet our FTE goal of 750 students and a $5 million annual budget, then our fee will constitute 5% of our total operating budget (less if we exceed our enrollment target, more if we don’t meet it) in FY 2013.

5% may sound like a lot compared to what DCSS spends on its contract with Ombudsman. However, it’s deceptive to view a single cost in a vacuum.

For example, we do not spend a single dollar on textbooks, which can range anywhere from $25 to more than $150 annually per pupil in the U.S. in a brick and mortar school. High school textbook costs are far more than an elementary school’s, for obvious reasons. Let’s say for purposes of illustration that a brick and mortar public school district in Georgia spends an average of $88 ($25 + $250 divided by 2, to get a reasonable estimate of an average textbook expenditure) per student on textbooks and serves 750 FTE high schoolers, and $5 million is the high school’s annual operating budget. That expense amounts to $66,000 annually, or 1.32% of the operating budget. We spend $0 on this line item.

A better point of comparison is in salaries & benefits, and it is here where the advantage of an education services contract becomes apparent, as well as the ability to leverage technology to individualize instruction and remove “class size” from the equation. So let’s compare our charter high school to an example small district high school.

Our example high school probably would have an experienced principal (estimated $85K salary) and an assistant principal (estimated $60K salary). The district’s central office employs a superintendent (estimated $100K salary), probably an assistant superintendent of finance (estimated $75K salary), a director of curriculum and instruction (estimated $75K salary), a director of special education (estimated $60K salary), and a personnel director (estimated $70K salary) to service the schools.

Let’s assume it’s a small district with three schools, an elementary, middle, and high school. For simplicity’s sake, let’s divide the central office administrator salaries by three and add those to the two building administrators’ salaries. So we have $145K in building admin, and $380K in central office admin divided by 3, or $127K. $145K + $127K totals $272K in administrative salaries alone. Let’s assume that benefits run about 25% of salary. So the mythical high school is funding in the neighborhood of $340K in administrative salaries & benefits, or 6.8% of its annual $5 million operating budget, of which $158750 is admin salaries & benefits ($127K for salaries plus 25% of $127K for benefits).

This high school that has 750 students, if it observes class sizes of 30 kids, employs at least two dozen teachers, each at an average annual salary of, let’s say, $50,000. That’s a teacher payroll of $1.2 million without benefits, which would add an extra $300K. So we’re spending $1.5 million on instructors in this mythical high school. We won’t add in guidance counselors, graduation coaches, custodians, cafeteria employees, or administrative support staff, to keep things simple.

EXAMPLE DISTRICT HIGH SCHOOL
Administrative salaries & benefits: $340K for 2 building administrators & 1/3 of 5 central office administrators
Instructor’s salaries: $1.5 million for 24 teachers
Textbooks: $66K for 750 FTE students
Education Services Fee: $0

TOTAL: $1,906,000 = 38% of $5 million annual operating budget

CHARTER HIGH SCHOOL
Administrative salaries & benefits: $270K for 3 administrators
Teachers salaries & benefits: $730K for 13 teachers
Textbooks: $0
Education Services Fee: $250K

TOTAL: $1,250,000 = 25% of $5 million annual budget

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“I just shared the link. Like I said, food for thought, and I acknowledged that you would disagree.”

It’s the source of the writing.

It’s not food for thought when it comes from a very impartial writer who apparently has a financial interest in promoting charter businesses.

Chris, I never stated that you and CS2 are the same person, and it is irrelevant to the positions that you two hold.

I respect your passion for education, but I do think your good intentions of promoting charter schools are being misguided by large organizations (maybe unwittingly at times), and this is a pitfall of the privatization schemes for public education.

Have you read this AJC article?
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/turkish-charter-schools-tied-to-gulen-movement/nQWLN/

Or this one from the NYTimes?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/us/audits-for-3-georgia-charter-schools-tied-to-gulen-movement.html

And if you think that money isn’t being used to manipulate, check out this article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/how-walton-foundation-spent-157-million-on-ed-reform-in-dc-and-other-places/2011/06/28/AGhLy0pH_blog.html

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Dr. Monica Henson, 12:25 am

“Mary Elizabeth posted, ‘Fact: 96% of the nearly $500,000. an advocacy group has raised to persuade Georgians to amend their constitution has come from out-of-state donors. Only 4% of those funds have come from donors from Georgia.’

So what?”
================================================

I believe that most Georgians will be able to interpret correctly what that means. It is not as if even 57% of the funds supporting the amendment to Georgia’s constitution have come from out-of-state donors. 96% is a huge number. As I said earlier, “The forces trying to pass the amendment to Georgia’s constitution are formidable.”

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@ OneTeacher – We have 2 diametrically opposed and different parties for the presidential election BOTH behind charter schools…both committed to educational reform through chartering. You have millions of dollars set aside in the federal budget for innovation – not just for charter schools, but for traditional schools as well. The federal government is funding the take over of failing public districts. Foundations are getting behind reforming education. And yes, national corporations that keep this country’s economy functioning to some degree, who hire millions of people and pay billions in taxes are involved, as what they are getting for an employment pool is abysmal. This is certainly a national issue.

Do I hate public schools? No, I do not. I was educated in public schools and taught in them. Do I think we have an epidemic illness in our public school system? Absolutely. Our teachers are not getting necessary supplies and support they need, they are over burdened with paperwork and nonsense created by folks sitting in offices at CO, and we have scads of kids failing and dropping out of school. Something MUST be done. Chartering will do 2 things towards supporting reform: 1) It gives a place for kids to go that are falling through the cracks and need another environment, particularly economically disadvantaged minority kids; and 2) It will push the public school systems to rethink how they do business – otherwise, charters are an option for teachers and students. It’s pretty simple.

As for Mr. Van Gundy – I know he was on the old Commission and he is active with the Republican party, but frankly, I don’t know who his clients are and have no reason to care. I am glad he’s speaking out though.

@ Alex – You call what I am saying propaganda. How so? I have given you links to every bit of data I have quoted. Tell me what is propagandized. Disprove me.

Regarding Mary Elizabeth’s continued harping on donations from outside of Georgia from foundations and organizations that gave to the proponent’s side of the amendment. If external funds from this state should not be piped in from outside the state to support public education and education reform, then I believe APS needs to give the Gates Foundation MILLIONS of dollars back. Gwinnett County should contact Broad Foundation for their enormous award and say, “Thanks for the kind gesture and support, but we only take in state money for our education system.” It’s an absurd argument. Plus, I’ll say it yet again…where are the parents in supporting the other side’s campaign? Where is ANYBODY other than the superintendents, Gwinnett County staff, and district vendors to support their campaign? The proponent’s campaign raised a lot – there are a lot of people who care. One might think there isn’t a lot of support for the opponents if all they could muster up was $80k for all of Georgia public education. That’s kind of pitiful. Which is probably why the districts and Barge are resorting to some pretty unethical practices to promote their political positions.

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Charter,

Can we all see the contrat with Charter USA? If not why? Why do you think a Charter school should not have bonding requirements for the year to make sure they stay open? You know Charter USA has had schools that went bust? Finally why should tax payers put up free money for strat up cost when Charter USA is making close to million dollars a year off the transaction? You realize that if they had to borrow 700k instead of getting free tax payer money, it would of cost charter USA a lot more depending on interest rate and term?

Many tax payers in Cherokee did not understand with the private recycling plant we did not lose 18million it will be closer to 50 million when you factor interest rate and term of bond. You understand when you buy a house for 200k by the time you pay interest it cost you way more than the 200k?

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@Dr. Henson 12:04- 13 teachers vs. 24- are the two schools you mention serving the same number of kids? If so, how do 13 teachers work with the same number of kids and provide a better quality of instruction?

Charter schools do work with less money, I’ll give you that. But they are also generally much smaller, which is fine. I love the fact that they can specialize and serve the needs of specific groups that public schools end up spread too thin to serve successfully. In your case, those kids who can work successfully in a virtual environment have a choice that could help them accelerate their learning, and that’s a needed resource. I’ll debate with you to the end, but I am honestly watching and waiting to see if your program succeeds. I like the idea in general.

Now let’s assume all three of the schools in the imaginary system you mention become charters, how do you see the handling of system-wide common goals and procedures? Will those schools have the time and resources to work together to build a systemic K-12 focus or will that be handled by individual management companies or possibly one in charge of all three schools? I’m not in favor of high cost administration, but it would seem that you would be placing a lot of duties on each school’s administration to parcel out those system duties unless they are a part of the contract with the management company(ies). If that’s being handled by a management company, then by your figures that’s another 250k per school, or $750k in management costs. I’m not sure you’re saving a whole lot in this example because you’re replacing a central system administration with a management company at what will still be a significant expense. I’m not a math teacher, so feel free to point out any mathematical error.

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Sneak peak: I’ve said before that we can “fix” schools over and over and end up no better off unless we change the society we serve. Kids who come from families that value and push kids to get an education, regardless of economic level, succeed better than those without that focus. No amount of education reform will ever be 100% successful when clearly so many do not emphasize education as a family priority. And fixing that will take more than a constitutional amendment or a charter schools commission.

Charter schools which specialize in specific groups and can focus on the needs of those groups have an important function in education, in my opinion. It’s ironic that the state at this point seems much, much more interested in those schools and has a pretty carefully outlined plan for paying for them while they refuse to A- honor current state law in funding public schools and/or B- rewrite the funding formula to be as specific about that funding as they are about the commission approved charter schools. They’d get a lot more support for the amendment, I believe, if they were willing to do that. My concern is that they don’t want to spell out that funding because their unspoken but somewhat apparent intent is to continue finding reasons to reduce it until they bankrupt current public school systems and force them into the state-approved school model.

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Mary Elizabeth: every time the graduation rate is calculated, I’ve noticed my own school’s numbers fall. I think those calculations are, at best, contrived and formulated specifically to look bad. I work with a group of seniors, fifth year seniors, and even a few sixth year seniors trying to earn credits to graduate via online coursework. Those kids, along with our students with disabilities, screw up our numbers. It’s unfortunate that a kid can graduate, even if it takes an extra year or two, and not be part of the calculations. I think the reality is that more than 2/3 of kids graduate, albeit some of them late, and it’s sad that the reality of that goes undocumented. But that will never be considered or calculated because it doesn’t fuel the anti-public school fire warming the gold dome these days.

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Ron F., 11:40 am

Hello, Ron. The formula for determining how many students have graduated from high school (within four years) has changed nationally, within the past half year, so that that fact has also effected Georgia’s graduation rate, which was lowered to about 66%. That number (66%) has been more consistent with my observations as an instructional leader for over 30 years, than the previously higher graduation rate in Georgia, which was closer to 75%, if I recall correctly.

I agree with you that, if the graduation rates in Georgia included those students who take 5 or 6 years to graduate, as well as those who take the more typical 4 years, then the overall percentage of those students who earn a high school diploma would be higher in Georgia. In fact, I recommend adjusting the graduation formula to include those students because taking longer for some students to graduate from high school, than is the “norm” for others, is consistent with the continuous progress, Mastery Learning instructional principles about which I have written on this blog, previously.

For those who are interested in a more comprehensive discussion of this continuous progress instructional, Mastery Learning model, I am providing the link to my own blog, below, in which I address these instructional principles. Ron, you will be interested in the final paragraph of my post in which I acknowledge the need for school systems to create programs in which some students would be allowed to take more than 12 years to graduate from high school.

I always enjoy reading your posts, Ron, because you have an in depth, firsthand knowledge of instruction, and you well understand all of the variable needs of many different students, which must all be addressed. I have mentioned, previously, that I consider you to be an excellent, caring teacher, and I continue to maintain that opinion.

I do think, as you do, that some who would try to dismantle traditional public schools, often use drop-out statistics that traditional public schools only graduate 2/3s of the student population, without looking into why that situation is as it is, with depth, in order to promote their own educational agendas, which often are based on a free market, profit-based model for educational delivery. Some of the drop out problems stem from societal reasons as well as educational ones.

http://maryelizabethsings.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/why-there-are-myriad-instructional-levels-within-each-grade-level/

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@MONICA HENSON and a Corporate Charter Profit School

Oh Monica…..You want me to post more on EdisonLearning Corporation from other sources…Okay……You asked for it……Let’s see what I can dig up in ten minutes.

Edison doesn’t have a history of lying…does it?
“In fact, outrage has haunted Edison. As Gerald Bracey detailed in What You Should Know About the War Against America’s Public Schools, despite protests in 2001 rightfully directed at Edison by the Philadelphia NAACP, parents, and educators, Governor Mark Schweiker went against even mayor John Street and representative Chaka Fattah and handed over the schools to Edison. Lawsuits followed, but Edison was awarded twenty schools to run (113-114), even though test scores did not come close to living up to what Edison promised. Eventually, in 2002, the SEC cited Edison for faulty accounting techniques, and school districts across the U.S. quickly severed their ties to the company (114-115). Unfortunately, it wasn’t until 2008 that Philly was able to set in place a plan to rid itself of EdisonLearning.”

More…..?:
“Edison likes to leave schools with enormous deficits, as it did with the Linear Leadership Academy in Louisiana, which was in the red over $300,000 until the Martin Luther King Neighborhood Association dissolved its contract with Edison.”

Edison doesn’t bring lawsuits that cost taxpayers money…does it?
http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/gary/edisonlearning-sues-gary-school-district/article_89a146e2-426b-56f1-8ccf-f1beb007054b.html

Edison doesn’t try to make money in nefarious ways…does it?
“Edison Learning had been charging a management fee to handle federal grants, a practice that is not allowed. He said the 2011 audit report is still being revised.”
http://thelensnola.org/charters/intercultural-charter-board-meets/

Edison doesn’t make taxpayers pay more….does it?
“EdisonLearning receives between $8,398 to $9,962 per student compared with an average of $8,355 at the schools the district runs.” At the district’s seven EdisonLearning schools, about half of the students on average are at grade level in English, according to the Nevada Department of Education. Proficiency rates hover between 44 percent to 76 percent for mathematics but fall to 18 percent to 44 percent in writing. None of the schools operating under the EdisonLearning model met federal No Child Left Behind’s standards last year.”
http://www.lvrj.com/news/for-profit-company-stays-as-district-s-partner-despite-subpar-record-159985885.html

Edison uses profits for….
http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?id=D000050405&year=2012

Paying Edison 13 years….for what?
http://qctimes.com/news/local/education/school-board-members-question-edisonlearning-outcomes-plans/article_5cd5bcca-bf3f-11e1-820e-001a4bcf887a.html

Edison’s Upstanding Moment
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/25/Business/State_fund_buys_schoo.shtml

I am really not trying that hard to find this stuff….
http://www.examiner.com/article/another-edison-schools-achievement-claim-falls-apart-under-scrutiny

Edison failure again
“In retrospect, that media frenzy just looks bizarre, and the glare of the spotlight was ultimately unflattering to Edison. In any case, that particular experiment is now officially dead. In the big picture, it is sad that an effort that promised to remedy the problems facing public education couldn’t manage it. But the Edison failure demonstrates once again that it’s a mistake to put too much faith in simplistic solutions to complex problems.”
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-light-goes-out-for-once-hailed-edison-schools

That last line is most timely.

Philadelphia’s schools voted to take back control of six of the privatized schools, while warning 20 others that they had a year to show progress or they, too, would revert to district control….Students at Philadelphia’s schools have made improvements overall, the commission said. But the private-run schools are not doing any better than the schools remaining under public control.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/28/AR2008062801637_2.html

Surely Rand has it wrong about Edison too?
http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/spring2007/takeover.html

This is just one Charter Corporation involved in Georgia.

Thank you Monica for bringing this to my attention. I will send all of this to my representatives when the time comes.

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Voice: Geez, I get stuck at home on a Saturday night and look for a little light reading…guess I better get a glass of tea and get comfortable!!

While I don’t think this represents charter schools in general as there are many good ones out there, it does shed some light on how careful we need to be in choosing which companies are allowed to manage those schools as we wade into this in Georgia. I have no doubt the legislature will eventually either get the constitutional amendment or find some way to go straight to vouchers for education. You can bet they’re consulting the Lousiana legislature about how to do it.

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I have been driving to Ohio, as my parents don’t fly, for a family funeral, so I’m settled in at my cousin’s house in Canton (OH) and just now getting back to the blog.

One Teacher’s Voice, please refrain from characterizing my school as a “corporate, profit” charter school. We are a public school governed by a nonprofit organization. We do NOT profit from our school’s operation. All of the employees, including me, are employees of the nonprofit board, not a private company. We have a contract for some services with a for-profit company, like any district public school has contracts with for-profit companies, usually several of them. EL doesn’t own the school, doesn’t have any employees sitting on the board, and doesn’t make a single administrative or governance decision. My board and I make all of those.

In a public school district, the board of education hires the employees and signs contracts to buy such goods and services as textbooks, computers and software, and auditing services from private companies, which then MAKE MONEY, some of which is realized as profit, from taxpayer dollars paid to them. Everyone yawns. In a public charter school, the same thing happens. People scream like mashed cats: “Evil for-profit corporations are making money off the backs of schoolchildren!”

In my school’s case, our board hired the employees and signed a contract to purchase a learning management system (which includes online textbooks), curriculum licensing, and services such as HR and finance assistance, along with staff development. This enables us to achieve an economy of scale and keep our central office staff small. It allowed us to afford to hire National Board Certified faculty and former Teachers of the Year, with a teacher experience average of 11 years. That’s smart financial management any way you cut it. If you’re looking for an apology, or an attempt to hide the fact that we signed a contract with a for-profit corporation, as though it’s something to be embarrassed about or hide, you’re just not a very intelligent person. Since you call yourself One Teacher’s Voice, I am assuming that you are in fact college-educated and sharp enough to understand this.

You trot out old news, sensational headlines, slanted stories, and squeal like a hysterical little girl over them. Anyone who reads newspapers regularly knows how little of “the real story” actually gets printed. In the world of education reform, there is no lack of folks with an ax to grind when a school takeover scenario unfolds. It helps to look at the actual improvement statistics behind the headlines.

EdisonLearning has consistently worked in the most challenging urban schools and districts in the United States. In three of the poorest performing schools in Baltimore, one actually ranked last, EL helped student achievement more than double in two years in both reading and math, with all three schools making AYP.

In Philadelphia, working with the 20 lowest performing schools in the district, the number of students testing below grade level in both reading and math was cut by nearly two-thirds during EdisonLearning’s partnership. Since EL began its work in Philadelphia, 14 of the 20 schools reached AYP.

EL has a longtime partnership in Hawaii, where the entire state is a single school system with some very challenged schools. EL began working with a handful of schools and proved that they could help the local staffs turn them around. That partnership has grown to more than 50 schools. The funding for these kinds of partnerships comes from federal school improvement grants.

When a failing district public school receives millions of dolllars in federal school improvement aid and turns it over to the same staff that ran the school into the ground to begin with, it doesn’t attract the same kind of handwringing headlines as when a district announces that it is partnering with EL and paying them millions of dollars to manage a failing public school and attempt to turn it around.

Please do talk to your representatives–I’ve talked to many of them myself–and be sure to let them know that they have an open invitation, as you do, for that matter, to come on down to Edgewood Avenue and take a look at what we’re doing. I’ll be glad to share our strategic plan with them. I can show them the incredible staff development that EL assists me and my fellow administrators in designing and implementing. They can see for themselves the learning management system and how it is helping us transform the way that high school is done for kids who have historically been underserved. Most of all, they can talk to students and parents, then examine the Report Card when the Governor’s Office of Student Achievement issues it in the spring. I am looking forward to sharing those things with as many people as I can possibly get them in front of.

I’ve been working in public schools, both district and charter, alternative education and dropout recovery for a long time. I’ve done my research on the whole stories behind the headlines. The team who created the Bridgescape model that Magic Johnson has attached his name and reputation to are topnotch people with a strong track record. The Provost Academy model has proved very successful in Pennsylvania where it originated. I’m not attaching my own reputation to something unless I’m confident that it’s going to be successful for students.

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Here’s an interesting tidbit on schools run by the Cosmos Foundation in Texas from March of last year from USA Today:

“In Texas, the Cosmos Foundation has filed 1,157 H1-B applications since 2001. It operates 25 Harmony schools statewide. Since 2001, Harmony has imported 731 employees using H-1Bs, surpassing all other secondary education providers nationwide. Parents last year also accused one Harmony school of “pushing out” underperforming students — a charge the Texas Education Agency confirmed.
Ed Fuller, a University of Texas-Austin researcher, found that Harmony schools throughout Texas had an “extraordinarily high” student attrition rate of about 50% for students in grades six through eight.”

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/life/20100817/turkishfinal17_cv.art.htm

While buried in an article examining the number of H1-B visa applicants hired by charter schools, which is an issue unto itself, this fact makes me raise an eyebrow about comparing performance of these schools to their local traditional public counterparts. If a school has an attrition rate that high, then any statistical comparison becomes void.

In Georgia, Pataula Charter in Baker county has been used as an example. It’s population is 75% white while serving districts that have student populations of less than 40% percent white students. Fair comparison of progress in that situation is questionable at best. While there are charter schools in the metro area that more accurately match demographics of the general population, I’d be interested to see attrition rates for those schools as well. It would seem that in those whose populations resemble that of the district schools, results are not significantly better over all. There are exceptions, but those same exceptions are also notable in district schools who manage to succeed with their populations. In total, charter schools provide more parental influence/involvement and a focus on professional development that should significantly improve outcomes. But questions exist and need to be answered with more than rhetoric about those companies that offer management of various levels within the schools they partner with and serve.

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“While I have little doubt it will pass, considering the divisive nature of politics these days, it just creates yet another reason for concern as to what this issue is really all about in the long run.”
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This amendment may not pass, Ron F. Be sure to check out Jay Bookman’s column, today, in the AJC for more information regarding those who are not in support of this amendment, and why they are not.

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Provost Academy Georgia is not “managed” by EdisonLearning. It is managed by me, along with two other administrators, all of whom are public employees, as is the entire staff. We do not “make money” for EL–for that matter, we don’t “make money” for anyone, other than drawing salaries for the work we do. And the work we do is not being done in the same way in district public schools, or there’d be no reason for the State Board of Education to have chartered us.

I’ll say it again: ALL PUBLIC SCHOOLS, both district and charter, do business with private, for-profit companies, and lots of it, and ALWAYS HAVE. I have yet to run across a technology vendor, textbook publisher, or seller of custodial supplies who isn’t incorporated privately and in business to turn a profit.

All the naysayers just keep right on screaming, loud as you can. Progress continues to happen, and you are unable to stop it, hence the shouting and fuss. Check the polling numbers if you think it’s not going to be a “yes” vote in November.

There’s a Chinese proverb I have framed on my desk, given to me by a teacher who used to work with me: “Those who say it cannot be done need to get out of the way of the one who is doing it.”

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