Retired teacher: Make admins teach. Reduce testing. Eliminate gifted. Restore recess.
Retired Atlanta Public Schools teacher Scott Stephens — he taught English for 15 years at Grady High School and taught for a decade in Fulton County — sent me a list of reforms. I thought it was a great list and have his permission to share it here:
Courtesy of Scott Stephens:
1. All certified personnel at a school, including academy leaders, graduation coaches, instructional coaches, assistant principals and principals, should teach at least one class during the school year. This would be of benefit in two ways. First, it would help reduce class size and, most important, it would provide administrators with continued input from the classroom. I believe that when a number of people are at school, but not teaching, morale is adversely affected.
2. All students (K-12) need daily physical activity, both recess and structured physical education. Many students need to get rid of excess energy. Others need to lose weight and get in shape. Further, many discipline problems result from making children sit all day in a classroom. Physical education should be a part of all students’ (k-12) daily schedule. It should be demanding and rigorous, resulting in an elevated heart rate and some sweating. Only athletes get that kind of physical education now.
3. Students need models for behavior. To that end, teachers need to be present, on time and prepared for each class. There are far too many teacher absences on Fridays and Mondays. Stricter guidelines for absences around a holiday or weekend should be implemented.
4. There is too much standardized testing, particularly at the elementary level. At the high school level, I applaud the elimination (finally) of the graduation test as it is replaced by End-Of-Course-Tests (EOCT). However, the EOCT should reflect the curriculum taught in the classroom. The present 9th grade English EOCT, for example, does not test students on any of the readings from the textbook that we have done. It is a generic reading comprehension test that is so easy that many of my students fail to take it seriously. Another issue is the system’s emphasis on PSAT, SAT and AP tests. In many instances, these tests are given during class time. Even more troubling is that many school systems pay the Educational Testing Service for these tests. The Educational Testing Service has been criticized for profit making and high administrative costs. These tests should be paid for by students’ families with a few exceptions made for pupils on free or reduced lunch. Let’s stop subsidizing an out-of- state company.
5. Transportation to and from school could be reformed in several ways. First, school buses should be eliminated for high school students. Instead, all students in Fulton and DeKalb counties eligible for transportation should be given a monthly MARTA pass. This is similar to the system in New York City where students take the subway or bus to school. The present system duplicates already existing MARTA routes. Even worse, many days the buses arrive late to school because they have been used earlier for elementary and middle school routes. Having ridden both school buses and MARTA buses with students, I know that most of the discipline problems on the school bus would be eliminated if the students rode with the general populace on MARTA. Teachers and staff who choose to ride MARTA to school should be given incentives for doing so, eliminating the growing parking problem for school staff. Finally, students who choose to drive to school should be required to pay for a parking pass and park in assigned spots. This would help with the problem of unwelcome visitors to the school and would generate some much needed revenue. Atlanta taxpayers should not be providing free parking to students, especially where there are public transportation alternatives.
6. Struggling students and low achieving schools need the best teachers. In order to provide the best teachers for those students who need extra help, teachers who work in low-performing schools should receive incentive pay and be given reduced class sizes. Also, teachers who teach below-grade-level students should be paid extra for the tutorials they often provide.
7. We are suffering from grade inflation. There are several reasons for this. One is that a passing grade has been raised from 60 to 70. A passing grade should be dropped to a 50 or 60, giving teachers more latitude in creating challenging tests and giving teachers a greater range of numbers for use in evaluating students. Many students are receiving a 70, not having mastered 70 percent of the work. Second, the HOPE Scholarship program has resulted in many more “B” averages. Some students that qualify for HOPE based on their GPA have not been able to pass a graduation test or get a decent score on the SAT. Many more lose their HOPE after their first year in college.
8. Eliminate the challenge and gifted programs. Too many parents are having their children privately tested, resulting in a huge increase in the “gifted.” Even worse, gifted classes are kept at 20 or fewer students. Without an increase in the number of teachers, that means that the students who really need the smaller class size are actually being placed in larger classes. Meanwhile, the gifted students, who can be effectively taught in larger classes, are now in classes that should be reserved for those needing academic help.
9. We need to provide better alternatives for the non-college bound students and provide more practical learning experiences for all students. Classes in keyboarding, wood and metal shop, auto shop, carpentry, cooking, fashion design, sewing, first aid, gardening and personal finance among many others should be expanded or introduced.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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209 comments Add your comment
Mike
August 29th, 2012
5:13 am
Eliminating gifted classes would seem to be a a short sighted reform and a path towards keeping Georgia’s public educational system mediocre (at best). Let’s adequately resource our public schools rather than establishing a system that bores the best students because we all know they can get by. The other suggestions seem thoughtful and worth pursuing.
The Other Mrs. Anderson
August 29th, 2012
5:34 am
MD- I see you’re burning the midnight oil!
I WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE with EVERYTHING Mr. Stephens has proposed. I am genuinely fearful of what will happen when my girls reach school age. Perhaps there are too many theorists making decisions without including experienced educators, like Mr. Stephens in the discussion.
I would add one more to this list, though: give the teaching profession the prestige it deserves. Stop treating teachers like they are the bottom of the professional totem pole. These people are college educated, and had career options, but CHOSE to HELP educate our children. They deserve our respect and support.
Have a great day, all!
Cathe'
August 29th, 2012
5:51 am
I agree with all of the nine points made.
NW GA Math/Science Teacher
August 29th, 2012
6:02 am
Inherent in your indictment of Gifted Ed is that these kids “can be effectively taught in larger classes.” By which, I hear that you don’t have to try as hard with them. I totally disagree. When I teach gifted classes (none of those for several years now…) I work far harder than in the regular classes, where I work far harder than most folks would understand. My underlying point is, should we spend more resources on those who *might* make it out of HS or should we spend more resources and effort on those who are the likely leaders of our society 20-50 years from now?
I want to read this more carefully later, but so far I agree strongly about Admin!
Fred in DeKalb
August 29th, 2012
6:48 am
**First, school buses should be eliminated for high school students. Instead, all students in Fulton and DeKalb counties eligible for transportation should be given a monthly MARTA pass.**
Unfortunately due to revenue shortfalls, MARTA has significantly cut its routes also. Add to that, there are parts of unincorporated DeKalb County near county lines (where, Arabia Mountain and ML King aqre located, perhaps a few more high schools) that MARTA does not serve. Perhaps a better statement would be to evaluate each attendance zone to determine if MARTA could be substituted for school buses.
MiltonMan
August 29th, 2012
6:49 am
Is this a joke??? I find it hilarious that any APS teacher would be given any platform to spew their thoughts. Remember it took none other then the AJC to uncover the cheating scandal – the same scandal that APS teachers kept hush-hush about.
“First, school buses should be eliminated for high school students. Instead, all students in Fulton and DeKalb counties eligible for transportation should be given a monthly MARTA pass.”
Idiotic. MARTA is very, very limited in North Fulton and I don’t care to have my kids riding with a bunch of thugs.
“Struggling students and low achieving schools need the best teachers.”
Punish the successful students even more than they are currently punished by giving the best teachers to those crappy students and giving the crappy teachers to the best students. I guess for an APS teacher that makes sense.
“Eliminate the challenge and gifted programs”
Another idiotic suggestion. The programs are the only reason I send my children to public schools.
“We need to provide better alternatives for the non-college bound students and provide more practical learning experiences for all students. Classes in keyboarding,…”
Keyboarding??? How about computer programming, robotics, etc. – some skill set that the students could use in obtaining realistic employment?
catlady
August 29th, 2012
6:58 am
This is addressing something I have been saying on this blog for years. School level personnel need to be teaching daily! The best principal I ever worked under insisted on teaching 7th grade math every day, every year, for the 15 years he was my supervisor. I believe it is even more important today.
In addition, principals, APs and other supervisory staff should be rotated back into the classroom full time for 2 years after 5 out of the classroom.
I agree with several of his other points as well.
However, he does not address disciipline. THAT is the silent elephant in the room. Until reasonable discipline is restored in the classroom, it availeth us not.
abacus2
August 29th, 2012
7:00 am
Gifted class sizes have gone up, too. Many people forget that these kids are our future doctors, engineers, mathematicians. Some actually become teachers. My county does not permit private testing – we do our testing “in house.” High performing students are permitted in gifted classes when space is available.
We need to realize that not every student needs or wants college. Bring back vocational training. We need good electricians, plumbers, mechanics and other craftsmen.
EmMom
August 29th, 2012
7:11 am
I second Milton Man! Gifted classes are the only reason I consider public schools challenging enough. If those are eliminated then we are out since the classes teach to the slower learners. By the way, our school has paras in the classrooms for those that have IEP children. If we equalize and teach to all the children in one classroom, with no special attention, should those with IEPs have to do without too?
Tech Prof
August 29th, 2012
7:15 am
#8 is insane. In general, too much time is spent relatively on underachieving students or behavior disorders, while the gifted students get ignored or asked to help others or grade the teacher’s papers. There should be some reward for having an interest in learning and the capacity to do to great things academically. The gifted program is one such reward.
NotMilton
August 29th, 2012
7:21 am
Hey, MiltonBoy, it used to be called “typing” and it IS a job skill, just like welding and auto shop. Everybody is not cut out for college, and skilled trades are suffering because we don’t teach them. As far as your “gifted” brats, send them to private school. Public school is not about lifting the few, it’s about educating the many. Private school is for uplifting your oh-so-special little tykes. I also find it interesting that the fact this came from someone who knows the system (way better than you) made it suspect it your tiny little mind. Maybe they know something you don’t.
Michele
August 29th, 2012
7:28 am
As another retired teacher, I agree with much of what has been said by Mr. Stevens. However, I totally agree with his belief that the gifted program is not necessary. As a gifted teacher for half my career, I saw, on a daily basis, exactly why the gifted program is needed. We spend far too much emphasis on teaching in a cookie cutter education program. Teach the same to Einstein as you would Gomer Pyle. Teach only towards a college degree. Give the same test to the brain surgeon as you would to the road construction worker. No Way! If anyone thinks that we are all equal in every single aspect of our lives, they are mistaken. We have students who, in Middle School, should begin prepping themselves for Harvard. But, not everyone is Harvard material. Our society is built of all types of people, all races, all sexes, all religions, all intelligence levels. Our society, on the other hand needs all types of people. We need college professors, we need CEOs, we need teachers, we need doctors, we need professionals, and we need technicians. We also need plumbers, painters, yard workers, custodial workers, construction workers, electricians. Without ALL of these individuals we could not survive. Where we miss the boat miserably in America, and especially Georgia is reflected in our total dismissal of the idea that we are not all created equal. When you push a young man towards a college degree, a degree he very well may not be qualified for nor interested, you turn him off to education. Give him, or her, an option to follow their dream. Believe me, if your turn off the Middle School student destined for Harvard, you do exactly the same thing. Then, what have you lost? A future Einstein?
Yes, there are too many students who are qualified for gifted programs. That problem falls on the state and the county. If Dekalb County is letting private test scores qualify students for the gifted program. That is a major part of your problem. The county can set high scores and stand behind them to ensure that only gifted students qualify for the program. Don’t go after the highly intelligent students who should be there. Clean out the disqualified.
Lee
August 29th, 2012
7:35 am
Some of these suggestions make sense to me, others do not…
#1:
Agree. At my daughters private school, the principal was a former math teacher and taught one of the math courses – which equated to one class per day. He said it kept him based in reality and also built a closer relationship to the students. He was not just “the guy in the office, but Mr. “Z”.
#2:
I agree 100%. Kids need fresh air and sunshine. Reinstitute recess and I would wager you would see a drop in ADD/ADHD as well.
#3:
Agree. In the business world, they call this “Tone at the Top”. Same concept.
#4:
Face it, standardized testing is here to stay. The villan is not the testing, but how it is used.
#5:
You want to give an elementary age student a MARTA pass to travel unattended? Didn’t think so.
#6:
More pay does not equal better performance. Many good teachers flee the cesspools and no amount of bonuses will bring them back. Address the discipline issues and they probably would consider it.
#7:
Agree with the grade inflation. Don’t agree with his solution. Just return to the system that worked well for decades: A = Excellent. B = Above Average. C = Average. D = Below Average. F = Failing. Numeric scale below 60 was failing.
#8:
Disagree. Schools need more stratification – not less.
#9:
I agree we need more RELEVANT vocational courses. Fashion design?? Sheeesh.
AP Teacher
August 29th, 2012
7:35 am
Is this person really a retired teacher? Schooly systems have no say over when they administer AP tests. College Board sets the dates and times a year in advance. College Board is also non–profit. While they do charge a fee for the test, that money pays for the readers who score the materials every summer and for other administrative tasks. In many counties (such as mine), the students already pay for their AP tests ($87). I had students last year paying over $500 to take AP tests, which might sound exorbitant until you consider the cost of the tuition money they may be saving.
My county does not permit private testing for gifted students, either. Parents can request testing, but it is done within the school.
In my area (not the Metro), CTAE classes are exploding. Our students have many opportunities for work-based learning that is relevant to our local economy.
Big Mama
August 29th, 2012
7:41 am
Here is a novel idea… students who master less than 70% of the material should FAIL the class. Why would a teacher pass, or promote, a student who fails to adequately master the class? Also, the administration needs to grow a spine and support their teachers.
If the schools eliminate the gifted programs, they will lose students to other opportunities. And the goodwill of many parents who contribute time and resources to these same schools. That said, the gifted programs need to be re-examined. A gifted student should truly be “gifted” not just a high achiever or early learner. These labels might overlap but are not the same thing. Whereas a high acieving student or an early learner can be challenged with more rigorous work, a gifted student thinks and functions on a different plane and needs a teaching environment that acknowledges that and keeps that student interested in school. A bored gifted student is a waste of a precious resource.
Facts
August 29th, 2012
7:50 am
I don’t agree w/ #8 at all – you will lose a lot of these kids and they are the future of the country. Would love to see some verifiable facts to support these assertions. “Huge increase” – really? – based on data from GA DOE. Let’s see it. Look at the data around Spec Ed and who really benefits from those programs – lots of meta-analyses around it. It’s often based on IQ and other capabilities. I don’t buy the argument that children who have been ID’d as gifted will do fine in big classes – they can often make the biggest gains in the smaller classes. Lastly, many systems have clear rules on Psych shopping and using outside testing – there may be some tweaks there if there are a lot of questionable outside psychologicals.
Do the math
August 29th, 2012
7:52 am
Why stop at eliminating the gifted classes? We could save a ton of money by eliminating the severe-profound classes, parapros for autistic students, hard-of-hearing students, and visually impaired. Heck, while we are at it, let’s also eliminate those resource classes. Why should we have classes for only 3 or 4 learning disabled students? After all, a gifted student is exceptional, too. If we cut off services to one segment of the exceptional population, let’s cut services off to all segments. [/sarcasm]
Entitlement Society
August 29th, 2012
7:53 am
#8 – Penalize the gifted students because they can fend for themselves. No wonder this came out of the mouth of a government employee. Typical. And you wonder why APS is churning out such winners…
HoneyFern School
August 29th, 2012
8:02 am
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Eliminating gifted programs is absurd, and if the author spent any time actually teaching them, he would understand that. Common myths of the gifted, posted again here for anyone who would actually like to understand what it means to be gifted: http://nagc.org/commonmyths.aspx
Aquagirl
August 29th, 2012
8:21 am
15 years teaching and he wants to eliminate all gifted programs so we can devote more resources to the 11th grader who can’t read? If that’s his attitude, I’m glad he’s retired.
Holly Jones
August 29th, 2012
8:28 am
I agree that the gifted program has become, in a lot of cases, bragging rights for the parents. There are systems (not here in GA, I think it was NJ, but I can’t remember exactly) I’ve heard of where 40% or more of the student population is labeled “gifted.” No way. That is statistically improbable. It’s also about funds- more gifted= more $$ from federal and state.
I was in the gifted program growing up. I got to do some cool stuff, but I don’t know that I was challenged any more than I would have been had I not been in the program. My mother, the soul of keeping it real, told me when I got in the program, “Honey, you’re not gifted; you’re bright. Mozart was gifted.” And she was right. When I had the opportunity to attend the gifted high school ( a gifted high school in Alabama, of all places!), I opted not to go. My English teacher was appalled, but when I visited the school, I knew I was out of my league. Those kids were different- not just smarter, but quirky, philosophical, deep thinkers. No one cared about football or prom or any of the traditional high school activities. They didn’t even HAVE a football team. THOSE kids were gifted. We had one of the youngest US chess masters in our junior high. That’s being gifted. And he went to the gifted high school.
That being said, the bright kids, the self-motivated kids, the kids who are truly craving knowledge, deserve to have that need met just as much as the “Mozarts” do. And this leads us back to ability grouping, which is anathema to education. As Lee said above, schools need more stratification, not less.
Fred ™
August 29th, 2012
8:32 am
I agree with every point he made. ESPECIALLY the ones concerning the “gifted” students. 90% of the “gifted” students I have met are barely average.
Bill
August 29th, 2012
8:36 am
#8 Certainly seems most controversial. I think it points out the fact that public schools tend to not do well with students at either extreme. Completely eliminating it seems harsh, and may cause the families of many of the brightest students to seek other alternatives.
Lee, Mr. Stephens did not advocate giving a MARTA pass to elementary school students. He said, “school buses should be eliminated for high school students.”
Joel
August 29th, 2012
8:36 am
I’d add that it would be a good idea for the non-certified employees to teach classes as well. Mechanical and maintenance work is always in demand and has great potential as a stable career path. We need to get off this elitist everyone-goes-to-college nonsense.
NotMilton
August 29th, 2012
8:37 am
You guys need to get a grip. Lee, he said HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS on MARTA, not elementary. You can obviously read and reason, do so.
That 11th grader who can’t read has been failed by the system. If he/she is still in school at that age and can’t read, it’s probably becaause the good teachers he/she needed were tending to the needs of your “gifted” darlings. Again, public education is not a gourmet restaraunt for the special, gifted, etc. It is PUBLIC education, and that failing 11th grader NEEDS to know how to read so they don’t come to your North Fulton paradise and carjack you because they can’t get a job. If your kid is so smart and special, put him or her in private school. Public money is for educating the everybody, not just your oh-so-special little darling. I can’t help but see a serious strain of selfishness through most of these posts.
the prof
August 29th, 2012
8:38 am
Agree with lots of the above except for the gifted provision. Can some here explain to me what the GIFT test is?
Tenured Teacher
August 29th, 2012
8:47 am
Hummm… sounds like a tax to me.
Digger
August 29th, 2012
8:57 am
Educators say the darndest things!
William Casey
August 29th, 2012
8:58 am
I’ve long advocated requiring school administrators to teach at least one class per day or rotate back to the classroom full time for a year after three years in the front office. When I became an administrator myself in 1993, I begged to be allowed to continue teach my A.P. Modern European History class. My request was turned down flat and no reason ever given. I would like to see a study of the teaching experience of current administrators. My experience has been: (1) Very few high school aministrators have significant (5+ years) teaching experience prior to going into administration, and (2) very few taught in the core subjects (Mathematics, Science, English, Social Sciences.) I could be wrong.
Ken
August 29th, 2012
9:07 am
I am a retired educator too (42 yrs). Taught HS Sciences and Special Education. I support all the ideas except #6 & #8. Gifted ed provides higher quality classes and more are needed in science and math. Also, the quality of teachers is pretty much the same in all public schools. It is each schools socioeconomic profile that differs. I also think the school system makes a big difference, so hats off to Fulton, but not so much to the neigbors.
dc
August 29th, 2012
9:10 am
scary……and from a public school teacher no less. hopefully this doesn’t reflect the opinion of the majority of high school teachers. if it does…..well, that explains a lot of our current issues.
NorthFultonParent
August 29th, 2012
9:10 am
What a load of ___ (fill in the blanks with your appropriate form of exclamation).
The suggestions are absolutely off base on so many counts! It is outrageous, selfish, pension-pocket minded and irresponsible to believe that this person was given a platform to speak. Even more outrageous is the fact that this individual belonged to OUR school system. What a nut-job.
My biggest criticism is towards the insane and outlandish suggestion that gifted programs must be cut. Children in the gifted programs are subject to the same workload as others, are subject to the same deadlines, tests and etc. as the rest of the class. These children are in a gifted program not because they are smarter or brighter…. they have a different way of learning, are able to grasp concepts easier and would be otherwise stagnant in their regular learning environment. It is 3-4 hours per week, per child, people. It is 2-4 teachers per school, and even less sometimes. Get over it.
It is this kind of pea-brained, small minded, dare I say, complacent thinking that will continue to pull down our economy, our social sensitivities towards other human beings, towards children who need help, and towards fostering support for a stronger and more intelligent next generation.
Look at the curriculum of other countries, and the budgets they have to work with. They still manage to put out fabulous students – not because they had extra cash, but because the teachers were committed to providing a better education, with
‘whatever resources they had.’
Does extra money buy you extra brains?? Well then, I bet, since the US is in such great economic condition, we would be the smartest country in the world, right?!
Schools can do better: Yes.
Accountability, from teachers and students, is needed: Yes.
Students need to be accountable through testing: Yes.
Schools need more money: Yes.
Teachers need incentives to be better teachers and get ‘celebrity status’ for doing a good job: Are you joking? Being a Good Teacher IS their job. If they fail at it, fire them. There are a lot of unemployed people who might just do better.
Grade inflation should be curbed: NO.
Teachers need to be reassigned: NO.
Children on public transport (regardless of age – don’t we have enough children going missing): NO
Suggesting that college education is an option: NO
If you hate it so much, try home-school your kids if it suits you better, or better yet, move to other states where their school systems are so close to bankruptcy they are cutting school hours in themselves.
Think about it, and stop whining.
dc
August 29th, 2012
9:11 am
amazing how many folks want to take all resources from “the fortunate ones” (as if hard work has NOTHING to do with their success), and give it to those who don’t give a crap. Like that’s going to grow our economy and create the future jobs. seriously?
Tired
August 29th, 2012
9:12 am
I was surprised, when I moved to Georgia, that vocational tech classes were not offered in high schools here. The county where I grew up (and many others) allowed HS students to choose between an “academic track” and a “vo-tech track.”
The students who chose vo-tech spent progressively more time at the county vo-tech school throughout their high school career, until the end of their senior year they were interning/apprenticing in auto body, as an electrician, as a cosmetologist, etc. This also reduced the class sizes, and gave some kids who didn’t do well in a traditional school setting an added incentive to keep going and graduate.
And some of my classmates who now own construction and electrician businesses chose to take the academic track, go to college and major in business, and then learn their trade.
College isn’t for everyone. I don’t see the value in pretending otherwise.
CharterStarter, Too
August 29th, 2012
9:21 am
@ Mr. Stephens – I applaud you.
jarvis
August 29th, 2012
9:22 am
I can’t believe that with all of his great ideas he never made it into administration. (sarcasm is pallatable)
He sounds like every blue collar frontline employee I’ve ever encountered. Mangers have their own jobs, and if they are doing them correctly, they don’t have time to do the frontline work.
jarvis
August 29th, 2012
9:24 am
“I think the regional vice president of Macy’s should still work the sales floor.”
See how stupid it sounds?
Mike
August 29th, 2012
9:31 am
At least Scott is willing to stand up and share what he has seen and what he might do differently.
Bravo Sir…
Mom of Two
August 29th, 2012
9:31 am
I am the mother of two boys in the “gifted program.” For the boy in elementary school it means that once a week he is pulled out of his regular class and has the opportunity to learn new things and to think in new ways. His regular teacher has time to work with the “average” students. My older son recently started middle school and is in the gifted program at his school. Being with other “gifted” students for his academic classes is obviously having an impact upon him. He is being challenged by his teachers and his peers. If he were in “regular” classes, he would be bored, unstimulated and more likely to be a problem student. Thank goodness for the gifted programs that our public schools provide.
Ernest
August 29th, 2012
9:35 am
Interesting list put forth by Mr. Stephens. Like many, I agree with some points and disagree with others. As I understand, gifted is part of special education, with rules and regulations that govern this program. To suggest eliminating gifted would be similar to suggesting that BD, LD, MOID, and the other related designations should be eliminated also. I don’t agree with that.
As catlady indicated, any list put forth should include handling discipline. Listening to educators, this is probably one of the key frustrations many encounter as it impacts the learning environment.
Another Math Teacher
August 29th, 2012
9:59 am
He included too many points. The good points he made are overshadowed by a couple of horrific suggestions. He should trim his list and stay more focused on the strong points. Perhaps he should consult an English teacher to help him improve his persuasive writing.
“he taught English for 15 years at Grady High School and taught for a decade in Fulton County”
Oh, wait…
C.A.
August 29th, 2012
10:00 am
Insightful and provacative list of ideas, Scott. You surely have generated some emotional discourse! I’d like to hear your thoughts on the discipline in the classroom issue.
wovoka
August 29th, 2012
10:02 am
We are graduating all students based on the premise that they will attend college. Re-instatement of “job ready” training so that students who are not college bound can leave high school with the certification skills in a job area would be the greatest gift GA schools could give these students and itself.
Angus
August 29th, 2012
10:02 am
I’m not so sure having admin teaching is the best for the kids, but it’d sure be a step in the right direction to eliminate our absurd, admin expenditures.
wovoka
August 29th, 2012
10:04 am
actually Jarvis, it sounds pretty smart. Keeping in touch with work in “the trenches” keeps a manager sharp and aware of areas that work and areas that don’t. “How soon they forget” when they leave the classroom.
Another Math Teacher
August 29th, 2012
10:07 am
William Casey : “I would like to see a study of the teaching experience of current administrators.”
My school had 5-6 teachers with more classroom experience individually than the five administrators in total.
If you include only core areas, that number jumped to over 60 teachers.
jarvis
August 29th, 2012
10:11 am
wovoka, what do you think principals do all day?
Hall Mom
August 29th, 2012
10:20 am
As a parent of a gifted student, I agree that the gifted program should be removed, at least at the elementary level; they should be accelerated instead. The state/common core curriculum mandates pretty much limit what the gifted program can achieve anyway. The standardized tests keep the classes on a prescribed timeline.
claytondawg
August 29th, 2012
10:24 am
Scott Stephens is correct in all areas above. Can these “10″ be implemented within a year or two? No. However, if this country was truly interested in improving its educational system, it needs to adhere to more ideas of our more intelligent teachers. Notice, I said TEACHERS and not educators. @ Aquagirl…I’m not trying to be disrespectful here, but according to Ms. Downey’s intro, Scott taught for 15 years and “a decade in Fulton County.” I’m assuming that decade is in addition to his 15 years. That wasn’t really made clear. Kudos to you, Scott Stephens. I also taught English (for 34 years); not only is it amazing to see he apathy and lack of quality in our students, but so many of our current teachers as well. Do we have the courage to make our educational system a force, or will we continue down the same path of mediocrity?
Ed Advocate
August 29th, 2012
10:26 am
# 8. Just. No. We cannot fail our talented and gifted students. They are the state’s future and can make or break our public school system. As a parent, education advocate, and former grateful gifted student, I am appalled by this idea.
Pluto
August 29th, 2012
10:27 am
From many of the comments above, it is apparent that there are just too many sacred cows out there so by paralysis of analysis let’s do nothing and maintain the status quo. If we don’t start moving outside the box and thinking of what could benefit most of the kids, we will continue this sham of an education system.
Lexi
August 29th, 2012
10:30 am
Talk about pennywise and pound foolish. If schools eliminate programs for gifted students, they dumb down curricula for high achievers and likely bore the most promising students who have the potential to accomplish the most.
Another idea: when our children were in public school we were told that the cost of educating them in their talented and gifted programs was twice that of educating “average” students and equal to the average cost of educating children of illegal aliens. Why not eliminate esol programs for illegals, thus reducing the cost of educating those children and reducing the incentives for them to migrate [illegally] to our state in the first place. Our children’s elementary school had far more illegals than “gifted” children.
Logic please...
August 29th, 2012
10:33 am
Most of the problems associated with grade inflation would vanish if the HOPE scholarship was tied to SAT or ACT scores rather than GPA.
Too many students qualify for HOPE yet the same students have SAT scores of less than 900.
Carl
August 29th, 2012
10:41 am
The best thing to improve schools would be to eliminate high school sports. Let the county or municipal recreation departments run sports programs. Think of the pressure that would be removed from teachers to let little Johnny play in this week’s football/basketball/baseball/soccer game. School should be about learning … not sports. Too much money is spent on sports and not enough on academics.
Big Mama
August 29th, 2012
10:42 am
@the prof
I cannot speak for the requirements and tests administered today, but back in my day (late 70s and early 80s) the children flagged for the gifted program took an IQ test (which one I do not remember) in 4th grade. There were 2 ways in: an IQ in the top 2% of the population or an IQ in the top 4% of the population plus the grades to support inclusion. I do recall 2 students whose grades dropped significantly during middle school and they were excluded from the program.
jarvis
August 29th, 2012
10:45 am
Good luck with that Carl.
Aquagirl
August 29th, 2012
10:48 am
Aquagirl…I’m not trying to be disrespectful here, but according to Ms. Downey’s intro, Scott taught for 15 years and “a decade in Fulton County.”
Not only did I read that wrong, I was corrected by somebody with “dawg” in their handle. *hangs head in shame*
Returning DCSS Parent
August 29th, 2012
10:53 am
#8 Definately not!! Too many gifted children on the high school level face few choices in Dekalb County. I sent my son to private and charter schools until he became a freshman in HS this year. He was chosen in a lottery to attend Arabia Mountain HS. I still paid my taxes and had to pay tuition because he is gifted and the local elementary and middle schools did not make the grade in my opinion. Don’t penalize the brightest students but make it better for the average student that does want to learn and wants to become a productive citizen.
Maureen Downey
August 29th, 2012
10:53 am
@jarvis, A friend of mine is an executive with a chain of women’s stores. She does work on the floor every now and then — probably three times a year — to see how the store is run, how quickly people are helped, how efficient the checkout system is. She has been doing that for years.
Maureen
keeping it real
August 29th, 2012
11:03 am
IMO Miltonman has the right of it. I don’t particularly like the language he used, but he is right on target. Most of these suggestions just simply will not work.
Ann
August 29th, 2012
11:04 am
I was a substitute teacher and school volunteer from 1999 to 2009. I spent many years in all levels and types of classes. I spent time with all levels of students, even the behavior disorder classes and the severe and profound disabled classes. My children were fortunate to be placed in the “gifted” programs. I explained to them they were not any better than anyone else except they learned more easily in the school environment. Recess and Physical Education is very important in elementary school, recess is needed in middle school and Physical Education should be available EVERY semester in middle and high school. However’ requiring P.E. in middle and high school should not be required at that stage of life. You are not going to change anyone’s habits and you are going to “hurt” a lot of self conscience young people. You cannot take all the core subjects, foreign language, and cultural classes that are required if you require P.E. all the time. It SHOULD be available, but the one semester requirement is nothing but a job for the coaches.
Gifted education should only be made available when there are enough teachers to have smaller class sizes. I don’t know what that magic number might be, but I do know in k-12 it is critical to have enough time to help individual students. Here is the rub. The only way this would work is to go back to putting students who learn quickly together and students who learn more slowly together. Require the standards be learned by EVERYONE and once those are mastered move to the next level. This would NOT be politically correct, because parents, like myself, would move heaven and earth to see that our children learned whatever was necessary to be in the most difficult class they could handle. An interesting aside, the school my children attended did this in the 4th, 5th, and 6th grades. A lot of the students who didn’t want to work hard, would calculate what they had to make on pretests to be assigned to a classroom that would put them in a class with not quite as much work as they could have handled.
You can fix everything else, but until you find a way to “fix” the behavior problems, you cannot get the best results from students; nor can you keep GOOD teachers in the classes where they must spend a lot of time keeping order when what they WANT to do is teach.
Hall Mom
August 29th, 2012
11:07 am
I would add #10. Level the classes. Put kids in classes with other kids that learn at the same pace. Our county does not consistently do this, but this is the single biggest factor that helped my ‘gifted’ student (not the joke of a gifted program). The faster learners can handle larger class sizes because there are fewer discipline problems in those classrooms.
jarvis
August 29th, 2012
11:08 am
“probably three times a year”
That’s great. I’m all for that. Stephens says he wants them to teach a class, and given that he says it would reduce class sizes, I assumed he meant teach it from soup to nuts….as in from semester beginning to semester end.
Overseeing your operations with a working visit is one thing. Ask your friend if she has the time to work in the store everyday.
jarvis
August 29th, 2012
11:08 am
every day
Elder Ray
August 29th, 2012
11:11 am
Thanks for a very insightful article. My wife and I taught for almost 75 yrs combined, mostly here in TN. In all my years I have not seem or experienced the turmoil that exists in public education as I see today. From one retired teacher to another: Thanks for your insight. My prayer is that those who can will at least attempt to make a difference as these children, our children, will be the leaders of tomorrow. It’s sad to think that they would lead future generations of our children armed only with the convolution of education being dumbed upon them in the name of test score enhancements. If Mr. Stephens wants to be state School Superintendent, or better yet, Governor, I just might move back to my beloved Georgia so I could vote for these types of reforms postulated by him. I hate to even imagine where we will be if we continue along the tortuous trek we are tumbling along now. Be blessed.
Dr. K EdD
August 29th, 2012
11:15 am
How about stricter parenting laws. If your kid misses a day of school, YOU GET FINED $50! And a bill just gets sent. That money is used to pay for gifted education. Also, test the parents on the same information the kids have in the EOCT. If the overall grade of the parents does not meet a pre-designated score, then the parents in that school district have to pay a tuition supplemet of $500 a year. It’s THEIR kids that are costing us money and keeping the children of smart parents back. Education starts at home!
stooge
August 29th, 2012
11:15 am
@ William Casey: Spot on. Most of our adm came from coaching backgrounds and taught health or maybe science 15-20 years ago.
Gifted Chem Teacher
August 29th, 2012
11:22 am
Gifted classes are small? Then explain why my 2 gifted honors chemistry classes are at 36 and 40 students!
Students at all levels need to be challenged and given teachers who are up to that challenge along with the resources they need to do their job well.
William Casey
August 29th, 2012
11:24 am
@JARVIS: I made it into administration and don’t think it’s silly at all for “leadership” to get back in the trenches now and then. It happened in both private schools where I taught. Generated a lot of RESPECT.
Bill & Ed's Excellent Adventure
August 29th, 2012
11:24 am
#8 fail…There’s no logic in eliminating gifted.
It would be fun to see #5 implemented and hear about all the mommies/daddies upset their high schooler has to ride with the riff raff on MARTA. That will never happen.
Hall Mom
August 29th, 2012
11:34 am
Question to all objectors to #8: Does your school system level? Do your kids take classes with other advanced students, or are all abilities mixed? Would it change your mind if your kids were accelerated instead of pulled out into a gifted program?
jarvis
August 29th, 2012
11:36 am
@William, what wasn’t being done in your normal duties during the time you were in the classroom? Or did you have spare time when you weren’t teaching?
Just A Teacher
August 29th, 2012
11:36 am
I agree with having administrators teach classes. I couldn’t care less about transporting kids to school. I agree that there is way too much standardized testing. I also agree that grades are inflated; under the scale our system has in place A = Outstanding, B = Above Average, C = Average, F = Failing. If I give an average student a C, however, the parents get very annoyed. Let’s face it, people: no one is above average in everything, but try telling that to the possible valedictorian’s parents when he / she gets a C in a class.
Stephanie
August 29th, 2012
11:38 am
I’m not sure about the state where Mr. Stephens teaches, but in my state getting rid of the gifted program would be illegal. Gifted children are protected just like any other special education child. I agree with many of the previous posters that if you get rid of gifted education, many of the parents would pull those children out of public schools. Already I’ve noticed a small exodus of bright children towards online charter schools. Every time a child enrolls in one of these schools, funds are pulled from the local school district. .
Gifted children definitely learn differently. People don’t really think about how a child with an iq of 130 is as different from the normal child as a child with an iq of 70. We all understand that a child with an iq of 70 needs intervention, but the average person doesn’t really think about what the gifted student needs. That’s why we have gifted education. To make sure that someone is paying attention to these students, that they don’t get lost in the system, and that they do good things with their abilities.
Historically, public schools have always taught to the middle. With a class of 25 students, a teacher really had no choice but to teach to the average student. This was hard enough on the gifted child. Now with all of the standardized tests, an alarming new trend is that teachers are now starting to teach to the below average student so that no child is left behind. Gifted pull-out programs are needed now more than ever.
Another alarming trend is that schools have abandoned traditional basic education in favor of the latest new strategy or trick. It’s funny how many of today’s teachers think that their strategies, tricks, and teaching methods are so much better than the methods used by teachers 40 or 50 years ago. I pushed for my child, who is gifted in math, to be tested for the gifted program in second grade because of the nonsense they call touch point math. My child could add and subtract double digit numbers in her head at the age of 4 ½. Despite this, I was told that my seven year old had to learn to add simple numbers like 2 + 3 by counting dots on a number. When I told them that this was demeaning to her, they told me that she had to learn it just like all the other children. I ask any adult, how many of you would like to be forced to count silly dots on a numeral to balance your checkbook? Most would go insane – and so do gifted students.
Another new “strategy” they tried to force on my other daughter is using reading strategies instead of sounding out words. My daughter was in first grade and could read at a second grade level, but her teacher insisted that she wasn’t a very good reader because she wasn’t using “strategies”. Imagine that – she was reading above grade level, but because she wasn’t using this teacher’s tricks, she wasn’t a good reader. This teacher had a script that she insisted parents follow that included the phrases “good readers make connections” and “good readers look at pictures”. She wanted us to stop our child’s normal flow of reading just to say these phrases. Parents were told that children were not allowed to sound out words. Imagine that – children are not allowed to sound out words! They had to use the trick of using substitute words or leaving a blank in a sentence. God forbid they try to sound it out!
Gifted education is a tiny ray of sunlight in a dismal public education system.
hildymac
August 29th, 2012
11:43 am
Get rid of gifted? Seriously? The higher achievers (both gifted and non) get shafted by the system due to the one size fits all approach to begin with, but sure, let’s make education less meaningful for the kids who have IQs in the top 4% of the population. Why would we ever want to give them special consideration? /sarcasm
In truth, gifted students are as far away from the mean IQ range as people who suffer from disabilities. We’d never cut those programs, so why cut the programs for those on the other end of the spectrum? As much as special needs kids absolutely need their classes and dedicated teachers, so do the gifted ones.
The reason why there is such a flood of gifted students now isn’t so much outside testing but changes to what counts as “gifted.” When I was in high school, I remember my gifted teacher saying that they changed the qualifications to “gifted and talented,” meaning that creativity counted as much as IQ. While being talented is a wonderful thing to be appreciated, it does not equal giftedness — the students who were placed in this program because of talent usually wound up failing out.
My gifted and AP classes in HS were the only ones where I was even remotely challenged. I don’t want the kind of boredom I suffered through forced on gifted kids nowadays.
Inman Park Boy
August 29th, 2012
11:48 am
I agree with everything except No. 8. However, in order to serve the truly gifted, I would not allow “outside” testing. Anyone can get a hired gun.
Tired
August 29th, 2012
12:01 pm
I truly don’t mean to sound snarky, and this may have been covered previously, but what are the criteria for “gifted”? It used to be 3 – 5 students in an elementary school class of 25. But right now I swear everyone I know or read on here has all their children in the gifted program.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
12:04 pm
This is a thought-provoking and interesting list. I happen to agree with all of the points. I had 11 years of classroom experience and became a National Board Certified Teacher before I went into school administration. I resumed teaching when I became a principal, one period per day in high school (in the fall I taught at-risk Freshman English, in the spring I taught AP Literature & Composition). I don’t teach now, as I am in a superintendent role. I do take responsibility coordinating for the staff development program in my statewide charter school LEA, including delivery of some of the instructional training. I’m teaching a mini-course this Tuesday for my high school teachers called “Managing the Grading Load so You Don’t Drown in a Sea of Papers.”
Eyes Rolling
August 29th, 2012
12:17 pm
I see Maureen’s penchant for censoring people who note that Education is the least intellectually-demanding major in any given college is still alive and well. No wonder educrats like her pen pal are so opposed to gifted classes… they can’t handle being shown up as dumber than their students.
Mike
August 29th, 2012
12:19 pm
Eliminate the kind of education that should be taught at home. Manners, discipline, etc. All that character education isn’t necessary for the majority of students who were raised to respect their teachers and parents.
The ones who aren’t behaved properly should be sent to some kind of school that teaches these skills before they are allowed back in the building.
And school uniforms never hurt anyone. They should be standard in every public school.
jarvis
August 29th, 2012
12:28 pm
@Eyes Rolling, it is true that on average Educaion Majors have the highest GPA’s. Is that because they are the best students or because they have the easiest curriculum?
I’m sure the opinions on that are widely varying split evenly between teachers and all other people.
Dr. John Trotter
August 29th, 2012
12:31 pm
Good thoughts, Mr. Stephens. At MACE, we have been talking about most of these things (grade inflation, eliminating much of the standardized testing, restoring recess, bringing back vocational/alternative schooling for those not interested in college, etc.) for years. I am not, however, for administrators/supervisors just teaching one class per day. This is not realistic for what a classroom educator must endure daily. I am for this administrator/supervisor being anonymously (as much as possible) sent to another part of the system as a teacher for an entire year. This is more akin to what a regular teacher goes through, although this “new” teacher still has the confidence and hope that after one year, he or she will be back in administration/supervision. But, perhaps this experience will lend the person to being more empathetic and sympathetic to what a classroom education goes through each day.
http://www.theteachersadvocate.com
http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
Eyes Rolling
August 29th, 2012
12:33 pm
@jarvis Education majors have the lowest test scores (ACT/SAT) of all incoming students at most colleges. To paraphrase P.J. O’Rourke, if you want to know what’s wrong with the schools, all you have to do is date an el-ed major…
Another Retired Educator
August 29th, 2012
12:43 pm
There is some merit in most of these suggestions. Most also have practicality issues.
There is no one set of solutions that will work for all schools anymore than there is one set of methods and curricula that will be right for every student.
In a diverse nation as America is, we need many kinds of schools and parents willing to help their child learn by finding the right school for their child.
More choice is a good thing, but not more state controlled approaches like the Georgia legislature is trying to push on us with their “Charter School Amendment”. That is another way to remove local control and give it to the GA DOE and state legislature while raising local taxes.
Dekalbite
August 29th, 2012
12:47 pm
State laws governing the placement of and subsequent funding for a student in gifted does not allow for private testing. When Gifted identification changed in the mid 90s (mental ability tests were no longer a required criteria), the use of private testing to place a child in gifted was taken away. If a students sitting in a Gifted class due to a private test, the state will not fund that student. That’s a Georgia regulation, and Gifted funding comes from the state (60% over per regular pupil funding).
Great suggestions – especially the admins teaching.
Jordan Kohanim
August 29th, 2012
12:52 pm
It still amazes me, even after all these years, that we go from discussing possible solutions to issues in education and examining thought-provoking discourse to bashing teachers.
I know I shouldn’t be surprised, but I my goodness. Is it just too hard for some of these posters to take anything said by a teacher seriously? I wonder if the same vitriol would be spewed if this man were a CEO of an insurance company offering education reform suggestions.
Wow. It is both sickening and sad that even someone who is no longer a teacher, can’t be taken seriously.
Katie
August 29th, 2012
12:53 pm
I agree with every point in the article. And while I see what Mike is saying in hie previous comment about keeping the gifted programs and challenging students in the classroom I do have to wonder how many of these so called “gifted kids” are actually gifted and how many are from relatively affluent families who pay for private testing and then the tax payers pay extra for their education. So perhaps their should be higher standards to be labeled as “gifted.” Personally, I think that the school problem in this country comes down to the fact that parental involvement has decreased in the past few decades. With more single parent families and more families with both parents working outside the home there is a lot less involvement inside the school, but also less time available to spend working together on homework or on enrichment activities. I think it’s way to much to ask the schools to be 100% responsible for the education of each kid, something has to happen in the home too.
Warrior Woman
August 29th, 2012
12:55 pm
If Stephens thinks eliminating gifted education is a good thing, he is an idiot. Doing so, IMO, would result in brain drain to private and charter schools, purposefully encouraging mediocrity, and violating gifted students rights under the state constitution to a free and appropriate education.
hssped
August 29th, 2012
1:03 pm
40-55 moderately retarded
55-70 mildly retarded
70-85 below average
85-115 average
115-130 above average
130-145 bright
145-160 gifted
160-+ genius
This is what I learned in college. What happened? When were the standards lowered? I’m not against gifted by any means. I am totally for giving the gifted kids the extra attention. If we spent half as much money/time on the gifted as we do the poor performers the advancements we could make would be endless. We might become number one in science again.
When I was growing up (60s-70s) the gifted kids were very different, especially in the social realm. One played chess, through the mail, with a kid in Russia. He got a full ride to Baylor. The gifted kids from “back in the day” were probably autistic. So…while I’m not against gifted classes for gifted kids, I am against calling anyone between 115 and 145 gifted. Or have the requirements changed?
nsnstv
August 29th, 2012
1:07 pm
I love the way ‘Milton Man’ assumed that only thugs use public transportation. I live in North Fulton and have children in North Fulton schools. The arrogance of the a lot of the people up here is shameful.
It’s amazing how all of the parents who respond on these blogs have geniuses for kids. They use this blog as a way to pat themselves on the back for having an over rated kid.
Hillbilly D
August 29th, 2012
1:08 pm
I agree with all of them except #5. Not everybody lives in Fulton or DeKalb County. What might work there, in this instance, has no relevance for those of us who don’t. It isn’t really clear whether he was speaking of school reforms in general of just in his sphere. When I think of school reforms, I tend to think more statewide than just one or two systems.
southern dekalb teacher
August 29th, 2012
1:09 pm
gifted in dekalb is a joke; our administration packs the class with “advanced” kids who can’t and/or won’t do anything. gifted kids get ignored, the teacher is frustrated, and the level of education drops even further.
BehindEnemyLines
August 29th, 2012
1:10 pm
Sounds like a good thing this guy retired. The “let’s not waste time on the smart kids” mentality is part of how we got in this mess in the first place. The taxpayers are better off without this schlub wasting their money, doubtless whining about his bosses all the while.
skipper
August 29th, 2012
1:12 pm
I am not sure about losing the gifted program. I do not know how to say this, but there were people in my class that could NEVER come close to keeping up with the top folks…..they could never in a thousand years or with the best instructors keep up with the top tier. They could not be on the radar screen with them. It is like having natural speed in running……some are faster than others. You can work and improve speed with practice, but you will never be able to keep up with the speed-merchant that runs the 4.3 who is naturally fast. All can improve, but there have to be some parameters whereby those not capable of superior work are identified and helped with out keeping others in the “aqua” of SRA reading! (Remember SRA….aqua was the first color….then purple, orange, olive, blue, brown, green, red, and later tan and gold.) It was painfully obvious to even us little second graders that the ones in aqua and purple while most were at least in blue or higher had issues.
claytondawg
August 29th, 2012
1:14 pm
@Aquagirl. Thanks for taking my comment in stride.
Now, I should have read and revised my own comment. Two misspellings–uh oh–inexcusable.
Lee
August 29th, 2012
1:16 pm
@Bill, you’re right. He did specify MARTA passes for HIGH schoolers.
@NotMilton. You’re a day late and a dollar short. @Bill already corrected me – and he did it without being a jerk.
————————————
Mad Russian
August 29th, 2012
1:17 pm
@MiltonMan Be careful about indictments upon a person based upon association. I worked with Scott for ten years and he personifies integrity in the classroom. That may have been the culture at other schools, but definitely not at Grady. I would expect an apology from you but I highly doubt your elitist viewpoint would allow such a concession. I guess the true term to described you instead of using MiltonMan would be “Mighty Whitey” because it’s obvious that you maintain bigoted perceptions of children that live in large cities such as Atlanta. Enjoy your day plebe.
Kasturi Talukder
August 29th, 2012
1:19 pm
Having being a teacher for 18 years I can relate to the many of the good points made in the article. To all respect to the good Adm. I would like to express my opinion what I have actually experienced in one particular school : The Adm. come to class just to evaluate the teacher, the person is disconnected to actual teaching in recent years.The person is preoccupied with bias hearsay . Most of the time I personally felt that, I was not praised for the things I was good at, rather that my fate was already predetermined.
How can we improve Adm. evaluation methods? Let them teach some of the difficult classes.
My 2 cents.
williebkind
August 29th, 2012
1:20 pm
#10 Take government out of the schools.
williebkind
August 29th, 2012
1:22 pm
# 8. Gifted? What is gifted? Students who study and score good on tests. I thought gifted was when someone exceeded social normal not just the class normal.
Lee
August 29th, 2012
1:27 pm
@Jarvis, we’re not talking about a “regional vice president” working the sales floor. We’re talking about a principal, which would equate to a second tier supervisor in business parlance. In smaller schools, probably a first line supervisor.
Unfortunately, our schools have too many administrators who were not worth a crap in the classroom and somehow got promoted into an administrative role – where they continue to demonstrate their incompetence.
DeKalb Teacher
August 29th, 2012
1:30 pm
Perhaps these facts will help alleviate some of the misconceptions regarding gifted students.
Funding – The state funds gifted students at 1.6 times the amount of a regular high school student. Schools without the pullout model can utilize differentiated instruction and lower the student-teacher ratio.
Gifted vs High Achiever – Gifted is designated to students that meet a very specific criteria. High Achiever students is much more arbitrary. I believe the High Achiever label was created for communities lacking Gifted students. If county programs use the High Achiever standards to get in then in theory all communities will have students that qualify for it.
Gifted Criteria – students must score on a nationally normed test in three of the following areas
minimum of 99 percent in at least one sub-test area (grades K–2)
minimum of 96 percent in at least one sub-test area (grade 3–12)
minimum of 90 percent on the total reading, total math, or complete composite
minimum of 90 percent on an assessment for creativity
minimum of 90 percent on an assessment for motivation (grades K–12)
Notes: Private test data may not be used to determine eligibility. A student may be socially inept or even have a learning disability, but can still qualify for Gifted if they meet the criteria.
reality check
August 29th, 2012
1:41 pm
You want to eliminate gifted programs? That is stupid.
Most of the rest of the civilized world emphasizes additional support for gifted students. In this country we emphasize support for less capable students. That is one of the main reasons the US has fallen behind in academic achievement.
reality check
August 29th, 2012
1:41 pm
You want to eliminate gifted programs? That is stupid.
Most of the rest of the civilized world emphasizes additional support for gifted students. In this country we emphasize support for less capable students. That is one of the main reasons the US has fallen behind in academic achievement.
Bernie
August 29th, 2012
1:43 pm
Like a Voice calling out from the Wilderness……..Mr. Stephens offers Pearls of Wisdom from ONE from who knows what works for the The Children of Georgia.
Results that have been Tested, Tried and Proven over many Years with verifiable Results.
We are about to begin the Task of re-creating the Wheel with Charter Schools. When the wheel we already have just needs a little cleaning and a little more air in the tires.
Those who Hear cannot Hear. Those who See cannot See farther than their own Noses.
Robert
August 29th, 2012
1:43 pm
KEEP the gifted program. The people in those classes will be the future leaders of tomorrow.
MiltonMan
August 29th, 2012
1:50 pm
“…NEEDS to know how to read so they don’t come to your North Fulton paradise and carjack you…”
Please, oh please send them my way. I would love to introduce them to my friends Smith & Wesson.
pleasebeserious
August 29th, 2012
1:50 pm
How very “Georgia” of him. Let’s just dumb down everyone.
Bernie
August 29th, 2012
1:50 pm
The gifted programs are nothing more than a Segregation of the Lucky Gene Pool Club Members, The politically connected, The socially connected, and The religious connected members of the community.
The so called Gifted program has very little to DO with any Students that come bearing any extra GIFTS of Wisdom, Understanding Intelligence or increased Capability. Lets start being honest with ourselves and the students if that is possible.
High School Parent
August 29th, 2012
2:00 pm
I’ve had children classified as “gifted” and I agree in part with the author’s suggestions. My experience was that the gifted designation in elementary school was a complete and total waste of time and funding. There was no “highler level” thinking. At this level it is all about the parents wanting the “label” and/or the smaller class size. I would have much preferred that my children be in accelerated math courses beginning about 4th grade as they excelled in this area.
I’ve also had children attend the DeKalb county high achiever magnet program. This is very worthwhile and I wish it was expanded to more students. Being immersed in all courses with students who are all achieving on a high level (and most have parents who support and participate in their child’s academic environment) was much more rewarding than any “gifted” designation. I do not believe my children would have received the same middle school education if they were in all regular ed classes where the teacher had to teach in a “differentiated” manner to 30 students with a huge spread of abilities. However, once students reach about 10th grade and start taking AP and advanced courses then there is no justification for specialized labels.
The state DOE needs to revise/eliminate the gifted program. I’d rather see the money used to reduce class sizes for all students. But I am a proponent of accelerated courses.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
2:01 pm
With respect to Dr. Trotter’s insistence that administrators be required to teach full-time for a full year, I don’t think that’s realistic or particularly useful. I’d like to see a move toward the type of system that’s in place at teaching hospitals, where the senior physicians practice medicine while also supervising residents and taking them on rounds as a group, etc. If administrators in a building taught one class period per day, and had sufficient sub support for newer teachers that they could periodically accompany groups of them to observe talented veterans, especially with an opportunity afterward to debrief with the veteran, imagine how much more meaningful new teacher induction would be.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
2:01 pm
With respect to Dr. Trotter’s insistence that administrators be required to teach full-time for a full year, I don’t think that’s realistic or particularly useful. I’d like to see a move toward the type of system that’s in place at teaching hospitals, where the senior physicians practice medicine while also supervising residents and taking them on rounds as a group, etc. If administrators in a building taught one class period per day, and had sufficient sub support for newer teachers that they could periodically accompany groups of them to observe talented veterans, especially with an opportunity afterward to debrief with the veteran, imagine how much more meaningful new teacher induction would be.
Maureen Downey
August 29th, 2012
2:11 pm
@High School Parent and all others, Education writers know that there is nothing nearer and dearer to the hearts of middle-class parents as “gifted” education. But that affection should not prevent us from assessing how these programs operate and whether they are worth it.
From my own experience, acceleration works better. My 8th grade son — the lone hope for an engineer in this liberal arts household — is in 9th grade math. (He is not alone; there are about 50 other kids in his grade there with him.) I think that works far better.
Also, I love the folks who have never worked in education dismissing the author’s views just because he has. Despite the fact that many posters in the past have explained what a top school Grady is, we still have commenters who reflexively criticize it.
If every high school in the state were as strong as Grady, we would be Finland.
I thank this retired teacher for offering us his expertise. And I am embarrassed for the posters here who can’t get beyond bumper sticker thinking and who hide behind aliases to take potshots at sincere commentary.
Maureen
Digger
August 29th, 2012
2:14 pm
Please. The louder mommie whines, the more chance for her child to be ‘gifted’.
Carl
August 29th, 2012
2:16 pm
Do we really want to model all schools after Fulton County or City of Atlanta public schools?
APteacher of the gifted and the struggling
August 29th, 2012
2:19 pm
I agree with Mr. Stephens to some extent. I have taugh both groups, gifted and struggling students. The solution is not to give the best teachers to either group, but to find out what type of teacher you have then place them with the group. Certain kids perform better with certain teachers. It takes a special type of teacher to reach the gifted students and anotherspecial type of teacher to reach the struggling students. Research has proven that the number one factor in student acheivement is the teacher. The teacher shapes the culture of the class. I know this personally because I know that there are struggling students who other teachers have problems with (both academically and discpline wise) that I have no problem with. I see a totally different student when they come to my clas. Sometimes its really about if the student feels that you truly care about them and they can connect or relate with you.
Carl
August 29th, 2012
2:19 pm
I agree … eliminate gifted and go with accelerted.
Maureen Downey
August 29th, 2012
2:23 pm
@Carl, There are many schools in both Fulton and APS that are models. Fulton has some of the highest achieving high schools in the state. In the southeast, for that matter. And Atlanta has some terrific schools as well. Grady’s mock trial team has gone to nationals year and year. Its journalism program is incredible.
Maureen
Maureen Downey
August 29th, 2012
2:30 pm
@To Pride and Joy/Good Mother/And too many other names to list here: You and I will need to have a phone conversation if you want to continue posting. You have never used a real email so I can’t contact you directly. Please send me a phone number so we can discuss.
mdowney@ajc.com
PT
August 29th, 2012
2:33 pm
Always love the fact that every teacher out there thinks he or she can run a school just because they can teach a class. Most wouldn’t stick with the job for a month truth be told. Sort of like how every parent and student know how to best run a classroom and teach a class just because they have been in one.
having a principal teach a class everyday is a bad idea for the students. They are always getting called to handle this or that emergency, irate parent, student injury etc etc. Students need a consistent teacher in the classroom every day as much as possible. Can’t happen with a principal.
Just an example of teachers who don;’t understand the actual job skills and time needed to effectively run a large operation such as a school. Teachers rarely see the big picture outside their own bubble.
PT
August 29th, 2012
2:36 pm
@Lee
“Unfortunately, our schools have too many administrators who were not worth a crap in the classroom and somehow got promoted into an administrative role – where they continue to demonstrate their incompetence.”
Got any data or facts to back that up?
Didn’t think so.
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2012
2:38 pm
Rush Limbaugh just referred to Atlanta as the school “cheating capital of the world”
yay! we’er number 1 in something
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2012
2:38 pm
Rush Limbaugh just referred to Atlanta as the school “cheating capital of the world”
yay! we’er number 1 in something
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2012
2:39 pm
stupid double posting – with spelling error no less.
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2012
2:44 pm
I strongly favor moving gifted and excelled out of mainstream education
provided, and this is big provided
charter schools replace them, and all students within the district have a real, fair, and honest chance to test into them
Lee
August 29th, 2012
2:45 pm
@Maureen, re “From my own experience, acceleration works better.”
Works for me. I’ve long advocated segregating, oops, bad non-PC word, er, grouping by ability, oops, another non-PC concept because we all know that EVERYONE is equal.
Ok, we’ll go with your moniker. We’ll just accelerate until the advanced students are placed appropriately and the slow, uh-oh, cant call a student slow, (hmm, have to work on a PC name for the non-accelerated students) are provided a level of instruction at a pace commensurate with their level.
All this will work fine until someone notices that the accelerated students are predominately Asian/white.
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2012
2:45 pm
@ PT
just wondering- where do you teach?
since you know how we think, you must have classroom experience
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2012
2:48 pm
@PT
short of a school shooting, there is nothing which goes on in a school which can’t wait an hour.
that’s we have little things like asst principals, clinics, security personnel, ect.
and its not like an actual teaching principal can’t be pulled out of class should something come up.
Lee
August 29th, 2012
2:50 pm
@PT, hit too close to home, did I??
Got any facts or data to refute what I said? Didn’t think so.
See how easy that is…
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2012
2:52 pm
one of the few things GPC got right in the aftermath of the professional assassination of 282 people is the requirement all administrators who are qualified, including Rob Watts, MUST teach a class.
bootney farnsworth
August 29th, 2012
2:57 pm
come to think about it, any principal which can’t cut an hour out of each day for day to day, non emergent activities, is a pitiful manager of time and really doesn’t need to be running a school
Dekalbite
August 29th, 2012
3:00 pm
Here are the DeKalb standards which are mandated by the state of Georgia:
“A qualifying score on a nationally normed test is required to meet the criteria in at least one area.
Any data used to establish eligibility in one area shall not be used to establish eligibility in another area.
Assessment scores are valid for two years.
Private test data may not be used to determine eligibility; it may be used as a referral for further evaluation.”
http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/gifted-and-high-achievers
This is what the state of Georgia DOE says which in layman’s terms means you can’t use assessments or evaluations outside the school system (I.e. private testing):
“External evaluation data shall not be substituted for or used as the sole source of data the school generates during the initial eligibility process”
http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/External-Affairs-and-Policy/State-Board-of-Education/SBOE%20Rules/160-4-2-.38.pdf
Perhaps the author of this post is referring to a high achievers program that is paid for by APS whereby the Gifted are mixed into the classroom. If APS is using private tests to meet one of the criteria to staff for Gifted thus collecting state Gifted funds for students wo are not classified as Gifted per the state regulations, they are not in compliance with state law.
Dr. John Trotter
August 29th, 2012
3:02 pm
Edmond Heatley finally resigns in Clayton County! Whew! I could have happened years ago, but some of the school board members were still clinging to some hope that he would be a decent superintendent. He was horrible!
Read all about here >>> http://www.georgiateachersspeakout.com
Dr. John Trotter
August 29th, 2012
3:05 pm
You can also read about it at http://www.theteachersadvocate.com where you can see that MACE has been fighting Heatley from the jumpstreet! I don’t think that this was a happy departure. Hence, the closed lips. But, like all of the other re-cycled superintendents, he too will land somewhere, and I pity the school system who gets him!
Maureen Downey
August 29th, 2012
3:06 pm
@Pride and Joy: No need to offer excuses. I had doubts that you would agree to a phone conversation because that would end the fictions.
Maureen
Al
August 29th, 2012
3:12 pm
Eliminating the Gifted classes is a stupid idea. Penalizing kids who actually come to school to learn is insane.
My wife who has taught in the public school for thirty years and college for almost ten years agrees.
Dekalbite@Maureen
August 29th, 2012
3:19 pm
“From my own experience, acceleration works better. My 8th grade son — the lone hope for an engineer in this liberal arts household — is in 9th grade math. (He is not alone; there are about 50 other kids in his grade there with him.) I think that works far better.”
Acceleration is what most Gifted students are in for middle school. I’ve never heard of a resource or pull out program for middle school. Primarily, the pull out/resource model that seves Gifted comes from elementary schools being too small to offer accelerated classes in specific subjects and/or elementary schools not being on set periods – it’s in part a funding issue. In middle school Gifted students are not considered Gifted in all subjects. Some Gifted students are Gifted in math, but not in Language Arts and vice versa so it is not assumed they need acceleration in all subjects.
Many states do not even provide Gifted services anymore. Massachusetts is a good example. They have no Gifted services. Of course, Massachusetts does have an excellent educational system with very good outcomes for most of their students. Georgia is not so fortunate, and that no doubt contributes to the pressure parents place upon keeping the Gifted program in Georgia and getting their children in it.
Perhaps if more of the suggestions Scott advocates for were in place, our overall educational system in Georgia would impfigs thereby decreasing the fight over scarce educational resources.
Mary Brown
August 29th, 2012
3:28 pm
These suggestions are coming from an individual who has every right to voice his opinion. He has seen first hand what the elimination of the activities/classes have done to the AVERAGE student population. Gifted classes are all find and good when there is an adequate amount of teachers capable to teach such promising students. I completely agree with bringing back physical education for the reasons listed. I rarely heard of ADHD and never heard of ADD when I was growing up having to wear those hideous gym cloths.
Dekalbite@Maureen
August 29th, 2012
3:31 pm
“Perhaps if more of the suggestions Scott advocates for were in place, our overall educational system in Georgia would impfigs thereby decreasing the fight over scarce educational resources.”
…should read…
Perhaps if more of the suggestions Scott advocates for were in place, our overall educational system in Georgia would “improve” thereby decreasing the fight over scarce educational resources.
IPads – arg
Sandy Springs Parent
August 29th, 2012
3:40 pm
Both my daughters have met the top 3 categories of the Gifted Programs as Described by @ Dekalb Teacher. I had my 17 year old daughter’s 1st, 2nd and 3rd grade Public School teachers all fight with Cobb County with why they would not let her in Target their Gifted Program. The most we could ever get for an answer was the creativity test. The teachers and I asked what we could do to help her. We were told that we couldn’t be told. All of her friends were being pulled out for Target, my daughter knew she was just as smart, if not as smart. At the time, I worked full time, 60 hours a week in my career. I still volunteered when I could. I am not a native Atlantan, and am not a member of the local Baptist or Methodist Church. Her teacher’s and I could not figure out what it was that she was admitted. I didn’t even formally reveal she had ADHD at this time. The teachers arranged for her to go and help a younger class during pull out time. Only when I went to pull her in the middle of 3rd grade to put her in Catholic School, did the head of Target come up to me and say it was her Creativity score and Creative was based on a creative writing. I then asked how could the child who had her 2nd grade writing assignment submitted as the schools creative writing assignment not get in to Target. This made it even crazier. I became injured, sick and unable to work when my daughter was near the end of 2nd grade, I volunteered to help teach two kids who could not read to read ( they would have read, if they had not been withdrawn). I held the begining of the year Parent Teacher Auction party at my house. I was helped the children make art project for the art auction. My child still did not get in.
My daughter had all A’s at Public Elementary, but she was distracted by underperformers. I moved her to Catholic School where there is discipline and you are kicked out even if your father is a Department head at St. Joe’s, if you miss behave. Classes are grouped based on ability, when they switched. My child excelled, unfortunatelly, I did not have the $16,000 for full tuition for Private Catholic School plus $8,000 for another child in Catholic School so we were forced back top puplic school due to my medical condition.
My daughter has taken IB/AP and Honors classes in High School she has never gotten below a B. She has a 3.92 GPA. I convinced her to do the Dual Enrollment so know she will take 5 real college classes this year and have 15 credit hours towards her degree. Meanwhile, her best friend from Elementary school who was in Target, struggled to be a C student at a Private School and is now back in Public School in on level classes. She failed Math III. and had to take summer school. Another for her friends from Elementary same deal, barely a C student at Private School, barely hanging on.
The problem is the criteria for the gifted programs need to be regulated to the top 3 areas. The other two are faux scanning criteria that are used to let in who the school wants.
The heart of the matter is schools need to group students by ability, or else we have kids like my other child who got a 99% on the IOWA tell me that in Science class these kids just talk and don’t pay attentiion, they are disturbing her. She thought she would tell the teacher last week, all he did was move her. She was mad, she wanted him to discipline the bad kids and make them learn. Then she says to me I don’t understand why their are these kids in my Spanish class that do not like Spanish and do not want to learn Spanish. I want to learn Spanish, and they don’t. Why don’t they take another language like French or Japanese.
She also told me that in Sept. they have the TAG testing. I told her well you have to get above a 4 on motivation to get in. How can a kid that was an Obama Outstanding Scholar the year before and had a 99% in one area and 90% and above overall only get a 4 on motivation. I am stumped. This kid wants to be a Vet. How can she be with no discipline in her classes.
Lexi
August 29th, 2012
3:42 pm
Kasturi Talukder :
Please tell me you were not really a teacher, unless this passage is satire: “Having being a teacher for 18 years I can relate to the many of the good points made in the article. To all respect to the good Adm. I would like to express my opinion what I have actually experienced in one particular school : The Adm. come to class just to evaluate the teacher, the person is disconnected to actual teaching in recent years.”
Bernie:
In a marxist world view all wealth, talent and intelligence is distributed according to random “luck”. Ever wonder why people who repeatedly engage in bad behaviors repeatedly have bad luck? And, even assuming that there in a strict correlation between intelligence and educational attainment, why does that mean high achievers should not receive special attention, encouragement and resources? Does it make more sense to keep throwing good money after bad and subsidizing bad behaviors? A large fraction of the kids in school, aiming to have taxpayers subsidize their secondary and post secondary educations, simply don’t belong in college or college prep programs. Many, after 13 years of public schooling, attain no more education than the average eighth grade student of thirty years ago.
old teach
August 29th, 2012
3:44 pm
I think that Mr. Stephens’ comments provoke lots of discussion. I mainly agree with Lee’s comments, too. I have long felt that one of the problems separating staff and administrators was an “us-versus-them” attitude. By having all assistant principals teach, there is common ground. This will promote empathy and lessen mistrust. Administrators will, theoretically, be less apt to adopt the “flavor of the month” ideas which may sound good in twenty words [but not have practical applications.]
I would also add more strict enforcement of an attendance policy. I would even like to see it enforced by class, not just by the whole day. I have had students sign out after lunch–or arrive after first period–so much that they fell behind in those classes. I have no problem with the (Police) SRO taking away the student’s driving license, or the Court holding the parents also accountable for a younger chronic absentee. Our school tried different ideas, including tribunals, and nothing worked great. But ignoring the problem is the worst thing to do. A student is not going to get the opportunity to learn if he/she is not there.
I also think that parents are not taking full advantage of one of the best community outreach programs that schools provide: parent-teacher night. Our school scheduled one before the school year started, and one after each of the first three nine-week grading periods. Concerned parents could meet with the teachers and get many questions answered. I was always glad to talk to the parents, especially those of students who were having trouble. I preferred it to the telephone or the internet. But we needed more parents to attend! (As I’ve said many times, “If we set up Parent-Teacher night at the stadium, we’d have the attendance we wanted!”)
averageReader
August 29th, 2012
3:50 pm
I don’t agree with everything listed, but I appreciate his suggestions. Everyone always complains and blames x,y and z. Not many people have solutions in mind. Nice job.
Bill
August 29th, 2012
3:54 pm
North Fulton,
Read the tone of your post. Then talk to me about social sensitivity.
NBW
August 29th, 2012
4:03 pm
@MiltonMan,,,my sentiments exactly!!!
Ole Guy
August 29th, 2012
4:26 pm
Mr Stephens has produced some excellent ideas. While we may agree, nod approval and raise our glasses in a hearty “HERE HERE!”, it all means nothing…absolutely nothing…unless/until…(you’ve all hears/read it many times) teachers start developing some professional spheroids. Does anyone, whose not drunk, high, or simply out of their skulls, really think these proposals are going to receive anything remotely resembling serious consideration?
Oh yea educators, the drum beat continues…take command/control of your chosen field of endeavour…ONLY if you really care, as many of you profess. Otherwise, all this pontification…as fine print as it makes…will only be relegated to the dusty bins of fiction. Like Asop’s Fables, they will make for some amusing reading; no less, and certainly no more.
catlady
August 29th, 2012
5:07 pm
Ms. Downey@2:30: Thank you.
gtd
August 29th, 2012
5:19 pm
Georgia has approved advanced content for elementary schools, but elementary schools get more funding from the state using the one day a week pull-out model. To me, that is the most funding for the least beneficial model. If Georgia closed that loophole in funding, a lot of systems would be able to provide elementary services that best meet the needs of their students.
Another thing I would like to see go away is the multiple criteria rule and go by mental abilities tests only. So many parents complain that the creativity test keeps their children from having the gifted label, when in actuality it is the mental ability score AND creativity. School systems spend a lot of money assessing in all four of thee area and could save money by just assessing in mental abilities. Because of multiple criteria we have some school populations with 20% gifted.
Melody Clarke
August 29th, 2012
5:44 pm
I cannot agree more with this article. Interestingly, I was surprised that parking was “free”. When I went to school in Michigan-we had to pay for a parking pass. As for the gifted program-this author is correct. Too many parents who specialize in overparenting their children persue this “gifted” malarchy for nothing more than bragging rights.
I propose we open our minds and change out the accelerated classes to something a little more worth it. Why not let these kids take college classes for REAL college credit at the local community college? I purposely put my son in a private school that has a arrangement with the local community college. He will be attending the community college the last two years of his high school part time. I would much rather pay for electives at the community college than the big expensive one he is dreaming of!
I am not a “gifted” *insert gag here* student. However I am a honor student who grew up working hard, paying for my own education, and building my own success.
Gina McNair
August 29th, 2012
5:58 pm
@hssped- some basic research will reveal that only 2.2% of the general population has an IQ over 130; only. 2% over 145. 50% of the population falls in the 90-110 range, making them average, 110-130 is above average, and 75-90 is below average. Below 75 is where cognitive functions become significantly impaired compared to 90% of the population. I am a product of public school gifted education, which I began in 3rd grade. As others have noted here, children in my 2% having highly unique ways of learning, processing, and applying knowledge.
Gina McNair
August 29th, 2012
6:04 pm
@Maureen, my chief concern with acceleration has to do with social functioning. Many gifted students, but certainly not all, suffer social deficits that put them at a disadvantage when placed with older peers. Of course, my opinion is colored by my own experiences as an socially awkward gifted student and by my experience as the mother to a highly intelligent child with Asperger’s.
taco taco
August 29th, 2012
6:48 pm
Where are the vocational studies? Make these kids rebuild an engine from scratch.
Ron F.
August 29th, 2012
6:59 pm
When I started teaching my principal still taught a math class, and loved it. The kids worked hard and the boss said it kept him grounded in what it’s like to teach. Too often, it’s easy to get caught up in the demands of being an admininstrator (and they are far more than I could handle), and you forget what it’s like to have 30+ young minds in front of you at one time. I think it would be reasonable to teach one class, at least every few years. I’ve worked for too many that went into administration because they were burned out or just didn’t like being in the classroom. Three years of classroom experience doesn’t cut it, and it shows. And they’re supposed to be able to objectively evaluate my performance? Yeah riiiiiight!
Ron F.
August 29th, 2012
7:02 pm
@taco: my school, and those I know of in shouting distance, have vocational programs that include a small engine class. My oldest is in one, and he took apart and rebuilt a lawn mower engine just today. He likes it, I’m glad he’s finding a passion, and the program is strong. They’re out there; we just need to get busy building them up and publicizing their work.
Grady Student
August 29th, 2012
7:34 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with what Mr. Stephens suggests, and I can assure anyone that, having taken his class, no one has proved himself as a teacher more than he. I’d like to note that, being in my senior year now, I have seen firsthand the problems that gifted programs give to a school like Grady. The population has increased, but there haven’t been more teacher hires to speak of. I, being labeled “gifted” and taking several AP courses, have not had to suffer the repercussions. Instead, we have on-level math classes with 40+ students in them, and these are the kids who will have to work to pass their EOCT’s and graduate. As a result, classes and tests seem to be getting easier and easier to accomodate the fact that students are not learning as much as they could be. The teachers are pressured to pass as many students as they can because of the standards the state has set for us. None of this has affected me or my “gifted” peers at all, but we are raised in an environment where self-motivation is expected of us. I don’t need the best teachers to learn, because I have other outlets (prodding, educated parents, money for extra tutoring, test prep courses, etc.) available if I need them. Instead of wasting a school’s best resources on the fortunate kids who don’t need them, why not use them on the students who could benefit by graduating high school?
Additionally, I wonder how people can criticize so openly the teacher quality in APS and other public school systems without wholeheartedly supporting higher pay for teachers. Unfortunately, Mr. Stephens is an exception, rather than a rule, but I dream of a day when my peers, some of whom are applying to ivy league schools this year, have a goal of becoming a teacher, right alongside lawyer and doctor.
Atlanta Mom
August 29th, 2012
7:39 pm
As the parent of three gifted children, I thought gifted classes were more important in elementary school than HS. Our elementary school used the pull out method and those children had something completely different from what was offered in the regular classroom. . In HS you have AP and advanced/honors classes, and they help keep students engaged. And when it comes to middle school, all I can say is, bless the middle school teacher.
Atlanta Mom
August 29th, 2012
7:42 pm
I agree with Mr. Stevens that students in HS would be better served by placing 40 “gifted” students in one class and having smaller classes for struggling students. The fact is, our gifted (and I do believe they are mostly high achievers, not gifted) will learn in most any environment.
Atlanta Mom
August 29th, 2012
7:43 pm
I agree with Mr. Stevens that students in HS would be better served by placing 40 “gifted” students in one class and having smaller classes for struggling students. The fact is, our gifted (and I do believe they are mostly high achievers, not gifted) will learn in most any environment.
yagottabekiddingme
August 29th, 2012
8:27 pm
All of you—-I worked alongside Mr. Stephens for nearly 7 years and what you don’t know (because he’s too modest to say it) is that this is not just another run-of-the-mill APS teacher. This is a Stanford grad, a Rhodes scholar, and one of the most highly regarded teachers at Grady (a highly regarded school). So, take what he says very seriously!!!!
Student
August 29th, 2012
8:40 pm
He thinks there shouldn’t be a gifted program? I’ve been in a couple on-level classes that made me want to blow my brains out. I’ve also been in many honors classes that made me want to do the same thing. What should be the most pertinent issue is holding teachers to the highest standards. I’m not talking about forcing restrictions or standardized testing. I’m talking about encouraging them to teach creatively and effectively and giving them the tools to do so. Sure people say that teachers are underrated, but most of my teachers just put on Law and Order and sit back and relax. However, I do agree that administrators should teach and more straight-from-highschool-to-workforce relevant classes be offered. And good God bring back recess! In addition, I think significant changes to disciplinary policy be considered such as removing dress code and electronic codes. Students should be given enough respect to make their own choices, not babied to “put their phones away” or “Wear longer skirts” until they are thrust into the adult world.
LillieGirl
August 29th, 2012
8:57 pm
I taught for 24 years. The last year I taught, the administrators in my building had spent a combined total of 13 years in the classroom before fleeing into administration. The one assigned to me spent 2 years as a parapro and then taught for 2 years. It’s really tough on teacher moral when you have someone like that picking your lessons apart or lecturing you on why you shouldn’t put a disruptive student out in the hall.
So, I left. I miss the students but I really don’t miss the administrators.
Jeanine
August 29th, 2012
9:19 pm
@ Maureen…..YOu have the voice, the platform, the chutzpah, to push these ideas upward, to make a kerfluffle, to make noise.
I , too, am a retired teacher….32 years …but in Diminished Dekalb. These ideas have merit and , if implemented, have the potential to at least accelerate the progress toward something better for our students. I hope they are not just filed away in the>” Great ideas but…….no one showed up to champion them. ” If not you, the who? If not now then when?
MB
August 29th, 2012
9:24 pm
First, to throw out the baby with the bathwater saying gifted needs to be eliminated because he’s seen private testing lead to questionable qualifications doesn’t sound like a Rhodes Scholar who did his research but a human being with some personal resentments. (Since the state waived class size limits, many gifted classes at my school are larger, on average, than on-level classes. The limit was 21 with a 10% overage factor before the waiver anyway.) Look at what our society is investing in the bottom 4% intellectually vs the top 4% and tell me how that will sustain our 1st World status.
The second point that tells me he got on a roll and failed to do what I suspect (hope?) he’d have expected of his students is that he obviously did not look at any MARTA route map compared to high schools in Fulton County. MARTA in North Fulton would not be an option for most high school students. (Of course, I guess it could be rolled into number 2 and the high schoolers could just be expected to walk 3, 5, or 7 miles each way on roads without sidewalks. Reasonable?)
With many others here, I do agree with most of his other suggestions. I think the admins would be randomly assigned classes,though, or they would get their “favorite” class with the “best” kids. That said, I’d suspect certain administrators (those with the aforementioned little classroom experience) might shorten their weak admin careers if they also had to teach. (Gratefully!!!)
Grady High School Student
August 29th, 2012
9:34 pm
I was taught by Mr. Stephens in my Freshman year at Grady High School. First I’d like to reprimand any person who may be questioning Mr. Stephens’ teaching abilities. He was one of the best English teachers I had, and the only reason I will ever understand The Iliad. Second, I’d like to ask all of you commenting on the ridiculousness of his idea to cut Gifted, when was the last time you sat in on a ‘gifted’ class? I was in only gifted/honors and AP courses for my four years of high school and I can honestly say that it made no difference. From sitting in on the regular classes at my school, I found that the same material was taught, the same discussions were had, and the same work product came out of both classes. The only differences were that the ‘gifted’ class moved about a week faster than the regular class, and there was a nice and shiny Honors stamped next to the course name. I took honors classes for two reasons, my mother wouldn’t have wanted me to go to Grady with them, and colleges think they look better. In my freshman year though, I discovered that most gifted classes aren’t truly gifted, and the people in gifted classes don’t belong there. In the end, it brings down this ‘gifted’ class and makes it the same as a gen pop class and the only left is more money for the school too spend completely unwisely. I really think that all of you parents should learn that the class isn’t going to make a difference, what is going to make a difference is your child. If your ‘gifted’ child has a desire to learn, they will, regardless of wether or not they are ‘gifted’. And also, there are some great and talented students that are coming out of APS, Grady High School, and Mr. Stephens’ teaching. With students going to Columbia, Harvard, Yale, etc, how dare you say that APS is producing less than worthy students, again, it is your child’s decision how they want to succeed. If your so called gifted student doesn’t go ivy league, you should look at your kid, not the teacher.
MB
August 29th, 2012
9:34 pm
@RonF How about three years of high school inter-related resource experience to qualify as an administrator? Same admin evaluating teachers who have 165+ students on their rolls when the admin had, realistically, probably less than 30 a day in “team-taught” classes. Really?Sadly, really.
@Grady Student, Not every gifted child has the same “prodding, educated parents, money for extra tutoring, test prep courses, etc.” They should be dumped in classes together with the struggling students? THINK about it and walk a mile in another’s mocassins. How frustrated do you think you’d have felt if you didn’t have those privileges?
Grady Student 2013
August 29th, 2012
9:43 pm
Firstly, all you suburbans attacking the man, Mr. Stephens, instead of his suggestions must not know a thing about arguments. As convincing as it may sound, insulting Mr. Stephens has absolutely no rational significance to the evaluations of his arguments.
Everyone arguing against the elimination of gifted classes has good points for the most part, but in the end, you can’t talk about gifted classes unless you are a gifted student in gifted classes, which I am, at Grady High School no less. The fact is, public schools were created so that everyone could be educated. Before public schools, only the wealthy were educated. Now that the less fortunate have the opportunity, we more-fortunate people choose to squander that by making those people second-tier to our precious “gifted” classes. If gifted classes are the only reason your kid’s in public school, there are other options like private school. I see too many “non-gifted” students around Grady everyday, not getting much of an education. I’ve taken some classes with them, I’ve seen what it’s like. 30 kids, a teacher who doesn’t give one flip, resulting in unmotivated students. With smaller class sized for the “non-blessed” kids and better teachers, these kids could actually become motivated and interested in learning.
Mr. Stephens I applaud you for speaking up, and I have the utmost respect for you.
Grady Student
August 29th, 2012
10:11 pm
@MB despite how it may be viewed on the outside, from my own experiences, a VAST majority of gifted students at Grady have the parental involvement and money that I was speaking of. There are a small number of exceptions, but can you really say that it just so happens that almost of the “gifted” students at Grady High School are upper-middle class white kids from Virginia Highlands, Morningside, Candler Park, and Lake Claire? If the breakdown of my gifted classes was a true representation, one would have to say that kids from Centennial Elementary’s school zone, or from some of the poorer areas in Grady’s zone, are somehow naturally not as smart? That’s made it pretty clear to me that gifted status’ biggest determinant is parental involvement, family income, and the like.
YALLOweMe
August 29th, 2012
10:18 pm
>>8.Eliminate the challenge and gifted programs.
What? We need to go further. Drive all parents of gifted students out of the school system. How dare they give extra help to their children? How dare they stay married? Bunch of racists!
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
10:26 pm
It’s terrific to see the student voices popping up here on the blog!
Gina McNair posted, “my chief concern with acceleration has to do with social functioning. Many gifted students, but certainly not all, suffer social deficits that put them at a disadvantage when placed with older peers.”
While this is a natural reaction that many people, including an awful lot of regular-education teachers have at the thought of accelerating students, the research doesn’t bear it out. Simply speaking, allowing a student to move ahead academically does not prove to create social difficulties for them. In fact, many advanced/gifted kids are not close friends with kids in their own age cohort.
It’s a myth that allowing kids to skip grades will somehow damage their social development.
Ron F.
August 29th, 2012
10:30 pm
@MB: you are absolutely right!! Been there, done that, and still putting up with it. It amazes me how many critiques I’ve had from people who wouldn’t last a week in a full classroom these days. It’s hard to take even their effective recommendations when you know that. It’s like making the waterboy the head coach; the team knows and it just doesn’t work out.
Ron F.
August 29th, 2012
10:35 pm
“It’s a myth that allowing kids to skip grades will somehow damage their social development.”
And the challenge is to debunk that myth, even among some of the parents. I had a kid last year who was on dual enrollment and graduated from high school with his associate’s degree. I’ve yet to understand why more kids aren’t taking advantage of dual enrollment in high school. My small system finally learned how to really understand data and we’re offering what are called “honors” courses now at the middle school that are actually accelerated courses to prepare the kids for what are being set up as truly honors level courses in high school. They’ll start high school a year ahead in as many academic areas as the data shows them ready to make it. It’s about time we did this and something I hope will encourage other systems in our area to do the same.
Sarah
August 29th, 2012
10:46 pm
We need more honors and gifted classes, not fewer!
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
10:58 pm
“I’ve yet to understand why more kids aren’t taking advantage of dual enrollment in high school.”
They aren’t presented with the information on how to do it, unless they are in the upper echelon of achievers, has been my experience. My observation of typical guidance counselors at the the high school level is that they generally spend a lot of their time advising & assisting the top 10% to 20% of performers. Kids in the middle, those in the college prep track but not in honors & AP courses, get short shrift from the counseling department. I realize this is painting with a broad brush, but I’ve been at this for a long time and have worked in several states, so I feel that I’ve had a pretty good look at the situation.
Families rely on the school to provide their high school kids with information. If kids aren’t taking advantage of dual enrollment, it’s because they don’t know that much about it, if anything. It always surprised me how little a lot of parents of high schoolers know about how to apply for financial aid for college, for example, among other aspects of it.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
11:01 pm
A cynical observation might be that more high school kids aren’t presented with information about dual enrollment because if more kids knew about it, then high school populations wouldn’t be stable for a full four years, obviating the ability to forecast the need for X number of teachers and counselors and administrators and counselors and custodians and cafeteria workers and other support staff…but only a cynic who thinks that district public schools are frequently operated as jobs programs for adults would say that.
Grady Grad 2010
August 29th, 2012
11:16 pm
As a proud Grady graduate, I just want to add my support for Mr. Stephen’s proposals, and emphasize my respect for him as a teacher.
After attending an APS Elementary School (and loving it), I was forced by my parents to attend a private school for middle school. After three years of elitist administrators, students, and teachers—along with unremarkable and unchallenging classes—I begged to go to Grady. My first class was Mr. Stephen’s, and he was a wonderful, intelligent, and passionate teacher. He inspired and challenged the entire class, including myself, and instilled in me a respect and endearment for English that lasted throughout my time at Grady and continues today. With his teaching as my base, I went on to score a perfect SAT score in Reading (and close to perfect in Writing), and now attend a well-respected university at which I study Communications and English.
Grady High School is far from perfect, and I agree with all of Mr. Stephen’s suggestions for improvement. However, for those of you who discredit Mr. Stephens, as an individual, or Grady, as a quality school, please refrain from making ignorant and unkind comments about a school you’ve never attended and an educator whom you’ve never had the pleasure to meet. Even parents of Grady students cannot fully understand or appreciate the enigma and the experience that was Grady High School (my own parents are still doubtful of its merits). I can’t overstate the fact, though–I am a better educated, more unique, and more open-minded person for having attended Grady. I can only hope that APS will take Mr. Stephen’s suggestions to heart so that younger students can also have the wonderful high school experience that I did.
Another comment
August 30th, 2012
1:35 am
@dr.monica I have found that Fulton heavily promotes dual enrollment, but Cobb does not. In fact Cobb will not even give you any additional bonus point had to your gpa for class rank purposes. So they make it a disincentive when you get .5 for an honors class added to the a, b, c or 1 point added to an AP or IP. Class. So if you are competing for Val or sal I. Cobb you need to stay and do AP. Where as in Cherokee they favor the dual enrollment and give more points for that. Fulton also gives more points for dual enrollment.
At gpc they told me if your child takes all 4 classes per semester the district only gets to keep $200 in administration funds. A,ltjough it ends up being your child hope dollars being used. You end up paying around $100 per course in fees amend about $80 per book per class. Still a deal for college classes. When you consider each Ap exam is 89 And you kid may not get a score that a college will give them credit for.
Ron F.
August 30th, 2012
5:58 am
“…but only a cynic who thinks that district public schools are frequently operated as jobs programs for adults would say that. ”
I lobbed that one over the net for you, so I figured you’d say as much.
It seems to depend on the school and system as to how they approach the dual enrollemnt idea. My system didn’t promote is as much until just recently and I have to agree that not enough kids are steered towards it. One of the barriers of course is transportation, which in my district keeps quite a few eligible kids from enrolling. As Another pointed out, there’s not a lot of incentive for systems to enroll a lot of kids, and that’s a shame. I suspect on the lean budget that many charter school run, it might not be an economically feasible idea either. Perhaps that is something to point out to our legislators.
I have a great friend who is a counselor, and her experience is that the top kids have parents who monopolize a lot of her time for good reasons. In my experience, counselors have been charged with WAY too many non-counseling duties (testing, registration, scheduling, etc.) that keep them away from kids. What time they have has all too often been spent just trying to catch up with all the kids. When you typically have one counselor for every 200+ kids, you can’t get a lot of time with anything but the extreme needs at either end. Graduation “coaches” have been brought in for that reason, and they’re all too often people who have no idea how to counsel kids (Dekalb county comes to mind…yet again!). We’re using teachers as advisers to get a lot of that information out because our counselors simply have too many kids and too little time to spend in classrooms or one-on-one discussing it. But at least we’re getting the information out to them. Many systems aren’t and it’s a good opportunity, even if only a small number of kids can participate.
Tired
August 30th, 2012
8:03 am
I had no idea there was a creativity requirement. It strikes me that one of my best friends – my high school class’s valedictorian – would almost certainly not have made it into the current gifted program. He was always three years ahead in math & science; he has an engineering degree from an Ivy League university, and has multiple honors in his military and private sector careers.
But a creative writer he is definitely not, and he’d be the first to tell you that. Maybe the gifted education program needs to be restructured rather than eliminated entirely.
Tired
August 30th, 2012
8:05 am
Grady Grad 2010, what a wonderful testimony to your school and your teacher!
Woody
August 30th, 2012
8:07 am
I wonder, too, about ‘Gifted’ programs, from which 3 of my children benefited. The eldest went to a school that was too small for such a program. The teacher noticed he was soaking up all the math she could throw at him. So, she and the principal decided to float him up to the next grade every day for the 30 minutes or so they were doing math. It worked great! It had the cachet of ‘progress at your own speed’, and when he got up to high school he had some older friends to hang onto. So much effort is made in Gifted Programs to enliven the instruction, make learning fun, and expose the children to new out-of-neighborhood experiences. But wouldn’t all children benefit from that kind of intentional energy? How many children stuck in ‘average’ classes, threading their way through prescribed curriculum, are much more than ‘average’, inside?
bessbear
August 30th, 2012
8:46 am
If there are problems with too many kids being labeled “gifted”, than address how the school is determining that. Yes, there are parents who just want the bragging rights, but don’t penalize those kids who truly are academically gifted.
GT Alumna
August 30th, 2012
10:13 am
@ Dr. Monica Henson,
You are definitely on to something here with the disincentive to do dual enrollment. We live in Cobb. Our eldest is in a fantastic HS. In general, we are pretty happy with the school and courses offered. However at his Freshman advisement last year, he asked about dual enrollment opportunities for him to go to Georgia Tech since he is highly motivated. You would have thought he spit on the guidance counselor judging by her reaction. First, she stated that even if he wanted to do dual enrollment at GT, his HS probably wouldn’t even accept the credits if he could have taken an AP course at the school. She actually had the gall to tell us that most colleges and universities would look down on any GT courses he took, they probably wouldn’t accept them, and that the AP courses were harder than college courses anyway. That said, the meeting became rather entertaining for the parents seated at other tables. We felt compelled to correct her since I am a graduate of that esteemed North Avenue Trade school and my husband has been a professor for over 20 years. Hopefully, she learned a valuable lesson of “know your audience” before you mouth off. I doubt it, but one can hope.
I think it is all about the money. When my sister did dual enrollment at GT 20+ years ago, her Cobb County HS was very accommodating. She only needed to check in periodically, but for the most part, she attended GT full time with me. How times have changed.
As for the need for gifted classes, my thoughts are that IF the state and counties actually used ability grouping, tracking, and subject-matter and/or full-grade acceleration, we could do away with gifted classes. Since that is not the case, the need for gifted classes remain. I firmly believe this. Thankfully, all three of my kids have been advanced one grade so that they are being somewhat challenged at school. However, the inclusion classroom model is not efficient as there are too many disparate cohorts in the classroom. This complicates the teachers’ job and actually serves no one effectively, including gifted kids. Inclusion of multiple cohorts also happens in HS where kids are influenced to take AP and Honors courses that they have no business being in.
And as a final comment, the gifted label needs to be applied consistently across all counties and even across schools within the counties. I repeat… follow the money. Schools receive financial incentives if they identify “gifted” kids. Case in point, my daughter’s elementary school required scores in the 98th percentile, while an ES within 2 miles required scores on the same test to be only 92nd percentile. Hmmm? Do you smell anything? I do. This other ES is not doing those kids any favors as MS and HS will sort out who is gifted and who is not.
Case in Point
August 30th, 2012
10:16 am
“Too many parents are having their children privately tested, resulting in a huge increase in the ‘gifted.’”
Evidenced by every other commenter here being the parent of a “gifted” student. News alert: statistically speaking, your little darlings are almost certainly NOT gifted!
Soccermom
August 30th, 2012
10:19 am
I participated in the “Gifted” program in Georgia in the mid-70s and my children have been in similar programs from the mid-90s. My husband is an engineer and I have degrees in music and biological sciences.
Here are the opinions I have developed from our experiences:
1. The current practice of pulling gifted, elementary school students out one day a week for “enrichment” is a waste of time.
2. To actually achieve more learning, especially by the “gifted” or “high-achievers”, the grouping of students in core academic areas by learning speed should begin in early elementary school. Grouping is a much more efficient way of teaching the students of ALL speeds.
3. Mainstreaming SpEd students is detrimental to the average and above-average students in that the pace of learning, and therefore the span and volume of knowledge, suffer.
4. Gifted students and high achievers may actually be shorted more than SpEd students because the first category of students will usually succeed (by “average” standards) despite lower quality teachers and less funds whereas the effects of non-optimal conditions are more quickly seen with SpEd students.
5. Schools do a poor job of teaching good study skills to gifted students. I guess that, because these students can coast through average-level materials, it is assumed that they have the study skills to succeed at challenging subjects too.
6. By high school, accelerated classes, along with AP and IB, should take the place of gifted classes if gifted/non-gifted education is used instead of grouping.
7. Increasing rigor at the high school level is not nearly as effective if rigor is not increased at the elementary and, subsequently, middle school levels. Nor is it reasonable to expect a student who has coasted through elementary and middle schools to achieve his/her highest potential in high school with that history!
8. Never discount the effect of motivation!! Or laziness, for that matter
9. My “bright” child, and every other gifted or high-achieving student, is not in school to be another, slower-learning child’s tutor!
10. The blame for non-achieving students and schools cannot be place solely at the feet of the parents, teachers, administrators, or society. We all share, in varying ways and degrees, in any failures of our educational system(s).
Jared
August 30th, 2012
10:27 am
“We felt compelled to correct her since I am a graduate of that esteemed North Avenue Trade school and my husband has been a professor for over 20 years. Hopefully, she learned a valuable lesson of ‘know your audience’ before you mouth off.”
Wow, you sound insufferable. I’ve found that Tech and especially UGA grads tend to overestimate the prestige of their alma maters. Speaking as an Atlanta transplant, outside of Georgia, Tech is considered a good, but not great, university and UGA is regarded as a party school not unlike Florida State or LSU.
Entitlement Society
August 30th, 2012
10:27 am
Interesting that the Grady students give disparate accounts of what a gifted versus non-gifted classroom is like. One says they are the same except the gifted class is one-week ahead of the regular class. The other (Grady Student 2013) paints a different picture of non-gifted classes – “30 kids, a teacher who doesn’t give one flip, resulting in unmotivated students,” saying they could benefit from the environment of a gifted class.
Grady High School Student even says…”From sitting in on the regular classes at my school, I found that the same material was taught, the same discussions were had, and the same work product came out of both classes.” Wow. As a parent, I would be appalled it my child has the exact same discussions and work product in a gifted class versus a regular class. This doesn’t say much for either the teachers or students at Grady. I find it difficult to believe that a teacher would lead the same level of discussion in a gifted class and expect the same work product versus a mainstream class. Again, Grady High School Student, you’re not painting a very rosy picture of your own school. If your statements are true, it sounds like Grady has already done away with the gifted program. Problem solved! Government school at its finest.
APS Parent
August 30th, 2012
11:07 am
As a Grady HS parent for the past seven years, I want to say “thank you” to Scott Stephens for his wonderful contribution to students and the GHS community throughout your career, as confirmed by the testimonials above from your own students. And thanks also for having the courage to propose your excellent and thought-provoking recommendations. Viewing some of the personal (and generally non-substantive) attacks appearing in some of the comments, you obviously struck a nerve when you challenged the wisdom of gifted programs, which have become something of a Holy Grail for many parents. Now that you are retired from the classroom, please continue to let your voice be heard.
APS Parent
August 30th, 2012
11:27 am
To Entitlement Society: From the available data, it is hard to make any serious argument that the “gifted students” at Grady High are being short-changed by this “Government school.” Look at the SAT scores and the college admissions (numerous top schools, including Ivy Leagues, every year) of the top quarter of the class. I challenge you to find any school, “government school” or otherwise, doing better with its high achievers. And Grady (unlike your precious “non-government schools”) does not get to pick its students. It amazes me that one with even a passing knowledge of American history can ignore the incredible contribution of public education to our success as a prosperous and democratic society. But when one has a purely ideological agenda, the facts can never be allowed to interfere with one’s world view.
Entitlement Society
August 30th, 2012
1:10 pm
@ APS Parent – I’m just going by the facts stated by current Grady students posting here on this blog. It’s a shame that the poster sees no difference between a regular class and a gifted class at Grady other than learning the material one week in advance and a “nice and shiny Honors stamped next to the course name.” (See “Grady High School Student” post.)
Dr. Monica Henson
August 30th, 2012
3:18 pm
Ron F., thanks for the softball.
We make it known to all our students and parents that we are happy to arrange dual enrollment if they want it. As a result, we are getting quite a bit of request for dual enrollment options from our families in Provost Academy Georgia. If a student attends college at the same time they are enrolled with us, of course that reduces the amount of time that we have them and can draw down funding on their behalf–but it’s the right thing to do because there are so many advantages & benefits to the student. We have removed the big box school from the schooling equation–we don’t have large physical plants that have to be maintained and funded, we don’t hire custodial, maintenance, and cafeteria personnel, and we don’t have traditional “classes” in the sense that a brick and mortar school has, so we don’t need a certificated adult for every 30 or so kids.
As a result, we are well-positioned to be able to deal with the fact that many of our high school freshmen may only be with us for three years instead of four. And those kids who can fly high and do things like dual enrollment college courses don’t take 90 minutes a day from our teaching staff; our teachers are able to act much more as academic guides for them as they take charge of most of their own learning & accumulate their high school graduation requirement credits, freeing the teachers’ time to focus on live learning sessions for those kids who need extra help to understand, and to work with high-risk kids we will have in our Magic Johnson Bridgescape centers.
It really is a win/win/win, for the colleges, for PAGA, and most importantly, for the students. And it requires rethinking the purpose of schooling–what is best for the student has to take center stage, and everything else needs to be designed around that premise.
Ron F.
August 30th, 2012
5:08 pm
“And it requires rethinking the purpose of schooling–what is best for the student has to take center stage, and everything else needs to be designed around that premise.”
Lordy, I about fell over in a faint reading those words!!
Ironically, that’s what every teacher worthy of the title believes, and what far too many above that level SAY without the actions to back it up. If you do nothing else as a leader in a school setting, please listen to your teachers and use the ideas they have. If there is one fundamental difference between our approaches to education, let it be that.
You appear to be in a perfect position to encourage dual enrollment. I’ve long argued that the warehouse approach of large high schools hampers our ability to truly understand and serve the needs of individual kids. Do you see charters remaining small enough to do that, or do you believe you can translate your design into larger settings? I think larger schools are going to be harder to manage and a hugh challenge to staff with enough to keep the small group focus.
Ron F.
August 30th, 2012
5:10 pm
hugh….huge. That’s what I get for typing after a day with ninth graders!! LOL
Prof
August 30th, 2012
9:02 pm
Here’s another reform, courtesy of Governor Nathan Deal and our state legislature.
My TRS Retirement newsletter for Summer 2012 informs me Deal has just signed a bill that repeals by June 30, 2013 the law allowing TRS retirees to return to work after 12 months and still receive their pension. The original repeal bill put the date at 2016, but he changed it to 2013.
IMPORTANT TO KNOW for all TRS retirees or those soon to retire. Call TRS for details!!
Dr. Monica Henson
August 30th, 2012
11:28 pm
Ron F., everything we are doing is being done with an eye toward the future, toward scalability and replication, and being able to convince district high school personnel that they can do it, too. Having a small incubator operating in a hothouse doesn’t do much to change the game. Charter schools at the high school level are not as plentiful as elementary and middle schools, for good reason. High school is hard to do.
GT Alumna
August 31st, 2012
4:03 pm
@ Jared,
Think whatever you like about me, but you are missing the point. The guidance counselor’s claim that his HS classes would be more challenging than any class my son wants to take at GT is ridiculous. High School is not college, no matter how you dress it up. And for her to patently dismiss his inquiries without listening to WHY he is even asking the question just belies her title as a GUIDANCE counselor. I will continue to advocate for my son, and I make no apologies for challenging the status quo.
I’m happy to hear that Dr. Henson and Ron F. have witnessed kids doing dual enrollment. It’s a shame this is not pushed statewide. In my experience, Deal’s Move On When Ready spiel is just propaganda.
Donna
September 1st, 2012
8:31 am
I am in a district which doesn’t have any form of Gifted courses before high school level that are not a once a week pull-out, and I’m homeschooling my daughter because of this. Her needs weren’t being met, she wasn’t learning, and she was frustrated and depressed. It is NOT the case that she can learn in any classroom, because the typical 2nd grade classroom isn’t teaching at the level she needs to learn and isn’t going to accommodate for a child who wants to learn algebra, but struggles to do the writing required to do a page in a math book. We’re potentially moving to the Atlanta area for my husband’s job, and if this writer’s ideas take root, guess she’ll be homeschooled there, too.
KarenB
September 1st, 2012
9:15 am
I think it’s fine to remove ineffective gifted programs as long as something else is in place. It would not be right to give struggling students all the attention and expect the gifted to be bored out of their minds all day. Each child should learn at his/her own level and pace. I think more and more technology options can be used to allow self-paced learning. My child is homeschooled, thankfully. He grades his own math work and is miles ahead of what the schools can provide.
AtlantaMomAndEngineer
September 1st, 2012
12:08 pm
Every child deserves to have his/her educational needs met.
Therefore we need more, not fewer, gifted / challenge programs. When you teach these kids how to stop learning, they can’t just start up again. We can’t just expect these kids to learn discipline and persistence when we demand of them that they daydream their way through a ten-hour day.
If a small child is ready to learn language and you deprive them of a rich language environment, the relative deficit is lifelong. Likewise for gifted students.
Really, we need to stop talking about “boredom” and recognize that this is not the problem. The problem is that of fairness and consistency. It’s tragically ironic that we are depriving so many students of the opportunity to use their minds — which we say is the reason for being in school — and we resent their enthusiasm for learning — which we say is what we want to foster. We spend lots of time and attention — and rightly so — on programs to help those who need more help. We should also spend similar time and attention to support those whose needs are at the other end of the learning spectrum. They have a right to support, too. But the spend in dollars and legislation on these kids is miniscule compared to the level of support for those who need help to catch up.
We should take care of all our students.
TeacherMom4
September 2nd, 2012
10:07 am
Obviously the lightning rod issue on the list is gifted. As an elementary school teacher, I admit to seeing little benefit to the pull-out model. Unfortunately, I am not sure what else to do for our gifted/high achiever students. I am expected to “differentiate” in every area I teach, but the whole idea relies on kids doing what they’re supposed to do at all times. My struggling students are the ones who can’t/won’t work independently while I instruct another group on what they need to do. Consequently, my high achievers end up getting less of me. I became gifted certified last year, but I don’t think I can truly teach gifted students in a different way unless they are the only ones I have to teach. I am certainly more mindful of the types of questions I ask and tasks that I assign, but I don’t feel that this is truly what is needed.
I dislike the pull-out model. If the time out of the classroom is daily, the kids are missing instruction in one content area every day. Just because they’re missing reading does not mean the gifted teacher is teaching reading. They may be doing thinking skills or enrichment material. Gifted kids still need some instruction in the content area. We can’t expect them to just teach themselves, especially if their area of strength is not the one being missed.
I also believe too many kids are qualifying. I think IQ and achievement on nationally normed tests should be the gifted benchmarks. When teachers are being coached on how to score a rubric so kids will make the cut, something is wrong. I interviewed at a school that boasted 26% of its students were gifted. How is that possible? If that many are gifted, then “gifted” really doesn’t mean much; it’s more average. I think services should maybe start at middle school, where kids are taught one content area per period and kids could be grouped based on talent/aptitude. There is too much disparity in ability in elementary classrooms. Most teachers cannot meet the needs of all students adequately, so what do they do? They teach to the bottom because that is ultimately what they will be held responsible for. Fair? Not really. Reality? Absolutely. It’s difficult to be all things to all people at all times.
Another HS Math Teacher
September 2nd, 2012
1:16 pm
Jared, you’re a dufus
Georgia Tech was within the last year rated the # 1 College/University in US for the return on tuition investment for its graduates.
How can a school rank this high and not be great?
MB
September 2nd, 2012
9:01 pm
@GradyHSStudent Sweetheart, no matter what you may have taken away from your Grady experience, it does not represent a microcosm of Georgia schools. Compared to the majority of GA high schools, Grady has a disproportionate number of high-SES, college-educated families.in its feeder district. Yes, you have “diversity,” but you also pass the tipping point in parental support. Gifted education is state-funded, so removing the option to support gifted students with some differentiated instruction and support would mean that many students in Georgia’s other schools would not have their academic needs met. My children were educated in Fulton schools and I can tell you that overall their general ed classes (e.g., political science, econ, and health) were MUCH different from their gifted, honors and AP classes and I heard from their friends (and their friends’ parents) that those who opted to blend AP and college-prep found many of the CP classes “a joke.” Not saying that you are wrong in your perception that there was little difference in honors, AP and gen ed, other than a week’s pacing, but it is YOUR experience with your personal schedule at ONE school and others of us had much different experiences. Maybe that’s why Mr. Stephens has the perspective he does; unfortunately, I have heard that APS has not had a concerted effort and expectations for gifted services in the past. Because APS has been, perhaps, misguided and disjointed in gifted services doesn’t mean that all of the gifted students in Georgia should be penalized.
MB
September 2nd, 2012
9:17 pm
@RonF Dual enrollment arrangements are, sadly, too dependent on local system or school priorities, it seems, but the (in)famous bureaucracy can also get in the way. Fulton, as noted above, is generally pretty supportive of joint enrollment. We were the first system to collaborate with GA Tech in distance learning to have students our high schools complete Calc II and III from Georgia Tech in classrooms in their home schools. Due to commute times, it was obviously not easy to have students enrolled part-time to attend Tech physically, but arrangements were made for students to continue with Tech classwork when needed through joint enrollment and the TAG Directed Study program. Fulton also worked with Georgia State and Perimeter to offer college English, mostly on-campus for the high school students. (At least one principal, however, would not allow this so students had to go to a Perimeter campus for the classes.)
Also, strange implementations of regulations lead to difficulties for students. For example, students who were very accelerated found one year that the ACCEL program (HOPE for joint enrollment) had been limited to 1000 and 2000 level classes. They were told that they COULD take the 3000 or 4000 level math class at Tech or UGA, but their parents would have to pay half-time tuition. (No, I am NOT kidding. ) After multiple phone calls and some questions from the lieutenant governor’s office, this was resolved, but… later a policy was implemented (than later revoked) that students could only qualify for ACCEL for four semesters.
Eternal vigilance to even try to keep us 1st world, sigh…
CobbTeach
September 2nd, 2012
9:55 pm
Smartest article I’ve read yet. I know eliminating gifted programming would ruffle a lot of feathers, but consider this: While “gifted” classes max out at 20, the inclusion classes that help special education students work within the general education classroom don’t face any class size restrictions. So last year, I had 15 special education students in a 3rd grade classroom of 22. How am I supposed to meet their needs?
MB
September 3rd, 2012
9:03 am
@CobbTeach Gifted services are state-, rather than federally-, funded, so class size maximums are waivered most places now. (And the class sizes of 20 were only in elementary school, and generally only for the pull-out classes of one period a day or one day a week.). If you truly had 15 identified special ed students in your class last year, you should have had certified special ed team teachers with you. I suspect that instead you had a number of students on 504 or SST, (Not that they don’t present challenges…)
Here is a DOE document that shows that gifted services are weighted at 1.6695 per FTE. For comparison, kindergarten is 1.6611 and Special Ed weights vary from 2.3975 (Level 1) to 2.4607 (Inclusion) to 5.8308 (Level IV). http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/Technology-Services/Data-Collections/Documents/FTE%20Resources/FY2013%20FTE%20%20Categories%20and%20Weights.pdf
A teacher of gifted in middle or high school could have a mixed model class of 30+ students with IQs between 90 and 180. Chances are high that she’ll have kids with ADD, etc., as well. How is s/he supposed to meet their needs? (As TeacherMom4 notes, it is hard to meet the needs of the gifted as well, but unfortunately for the overall good, more of the instruction will be directed to the lower levels.)
MidtownMama
September 4th, 2012
1:11 am
Mr. Stephens was a well respected teacher and was sought after by both students and parents. He taught gifted literature classes and published the literary magazine each year. He rode a bike to school to stay fit and he did not want to leave the classroom to be an administrator because he believed it was decidedly more important and satisfying to teach children. He had a reputation for having very difficult classes that required a child to produce and learn at a high level. Students had to work hard for him and because he did not accept garbage, they knew that they deserved their grades and they were proud when they pulled an A or B in his class. The school where he taught welcomes a diverse group of children–wealthy, poor ( and every color) to come together and learn to the best of their abilities. The school was never part of any scandal and Mr. Stephen’s has more integrity that most of us in this world. There are a lot of negative comments coming out of the northern counties. You are up there for a reason though, aren’t you? FYI: teachers only make about 50k after a decade of service. For the last 4 years though, their pay has been reduced each year with multiple unpaid furloughs and a step freeze. So okay, you don’t want to listen to someone who graduated from Stanford and gave his all for 15 years? Hey, no problem, there are plenty of folks ready to tell you pretty lies. Truly gifted students should only attend two years of high school at the most. They can and should go straight into college classes. That is why you don’t need gifted classes beyond 10th grade. AP is nothing like a real college class. Don’t believe that? Sit in on both. All the standardized testing, eats up at least a month of class time each year. What a shame.
Puzzled
September 4th, 2012
7:34 am
Are you serious…eliminate the gifted program? And I would love to know what county accepts “outside” testing…we do have reciprocity in the state of Georgia, but not with other states…and I do the testing for gifted…not an outside source. Most students from other states do not even qualify for Georgia’s gifted program because our standards are higher than other states.
These are the students who will make a difference…who will achieve…they are in smaller classes (although not anymore) because they learn differently…gifted is not where money is being spent…try justifying a special education class with 8 students, 1 teacher and 2 parapros to parents of regular ed students and see how far you get.
GT Alumna
September 4th, 2012
8:55 am
Not that anyone at the DOE will take this seriously, but… if we did ability grouping, you could take those kids that are truly gifted (as verified by objective measurements) and put them in classes of much higher numbers. By lessening the disparate cohorts in the classroom, the size could grow assuming you had the space. Then, the student populations in the remaining classrooms that have multiple cohorts could be reduced. That way, the schools could still do the “differentiated” instruction that they love so much AND give the non-gifted learners more individual attention. Is this a new idea? Nope. This is how it was done when I was in school. Advanced classrooms were kept between 25 and 35 students. Other classes were kept below 20.
***One item to note: measurement of gifted must be objective and verified as the only way the large classroom would work effectively is if the kids were of similar abilities.
Of course, another idea would be to allow for subject-matter or full-grade acceleration. This is also not a new idea. When I was in ES and MS, kids were moved between class levels depending upon their ability to show mastery of prerequisite concepts. And really advanced kids were allowed to do independent study while sitting in another class. These solutions were cheap to implement and met the academic needs of the students.
Teacher
September 5th, 2012
1:08 am
I am an educator, and I need to vent….anonymously. Anonymously – why? If I were to openly express my frustrations in any sort of public forum, I would be labeled with any, or all, of the following: negative, not a team player, pessimistic, and the list goes on. Actually, I consider myself a fairly positive person. However, I am becoming increasingly more cynical as each new school year brings a myriad of new policies and procedures which directly affect my ability to focus on the instruction of my students. As each new year begins, my creativity as a classroom teacher is limited by increasing class sizes, limited budgets, paperwork, lack of textbooks, copy machine quotas (We are a school…pencil and PAPER are basic necessities), and incessant testing. The latter is, by far, the most intrusive and useless. For the past three weeks, I have been required to test all 27 of my students, individually, in the areas of math and reading. I am not referring to a quick, concise computer based assessment. I am referring to one-on-one individualized step by step testing while the remainder of the class is working on “busy work.” I understand that we are in the midst of the data driven phenomenon, but when does common sense come into play? We are cutting direct instruction by 1-2 months when you consider that these tests have to be conducted three times a year, in addition to the state standardized tests. Not to mention that preparing to instruct 27 students each day, leaves little time to analyze this mountain of data. But it sure looks good when it is neatly compiled on spreadsheets and school improvement plans! I also find it ironic that we are told to differentiate to meet all the individualized learning needs and styles of our students, yet we, as educators, must follow these ridiculous cookie cutter methods of instruction and plan with our grade levels a minimum of two times a week . I am, by all means, a team player and value professional dialogue with my peers, but let us decide what information and teaching topics are most useful to us. This mandatory meeting time , by the way, would be better spent in our classrooms adequately preparing for the next school day. We are so often told what we can’t teach in the classroom. What has happened to professional judgment? What happened to wisdom as it relates to experience? What happened to grades on report cards? Yes, grades – A, B, C, D, and F’s. Now it is, emerging, progressing, and mastered, which are completely subjective and ambiguous. Ok, I am rambling. It must be because it is 1:00 a.m. I can’t sleep. I wonder why.
Will
September 10th, 2012
10:34 pm
#4: Literature EOCTs necessarily must test general concepts, because not all teachers across the state give the same reading material to their classes. Does Stephens propose a statewide reading list for all HS literature classes?
Emphasis on the PSAT, the SAT, and AP exams is a national issue, not something that school districts can just “reform.” Students need these tests to win scholarships, be admitted to college, and prepare for college, respectively. Schools don’t have a choice when these national exams are administered. While AP exams are always (and the PSAT is sometimes) given during class time, the SAT is never given during class time FYI.
#7: While I agree that too many undeserving students qualify for HOPE, I’m surprised Stephens complains about their bad SAT scores, considering his distaste for standardized testing in #4.
#8: Stephens makes an absurd conclusion in calling for the elimination of gifted classes. Couldn’t schools just take up his (reasonable) suggestions? Make the gifted pool more exclusive and make the gifted classes a bit bigger. No reason to trash them altogether.
#9 is an excellent idea.
Overall, this list is pretty shortsighted. Just because he’s taught high school for 25 years doesn’t mean he gets the big picture.