Retired teacher: Make admins teach. Reduce testing. Eliminate gifted. Restore recess.
Retired Atlanta Public Schools teacher Scott Stephens — he taught English for 15 years at Grady High School and taught for a decade in Fulton County — sent me a list of reforms. I thought it was a great list and have his permission to share it here:
Courtesy of Scott Stephens:
1. All certified personnel at a school, including academy leaders, graduation coaches, instructional coaches, assistant principals and principals, should teach at least one class during the school year. This would be of benefit in two ways. First, it would help reduce class size and, most important, it would provide administrators with continued input from the classroom. I believe that when a number of people are at school, but not teaching, morale is adversely affected.
2. All students (K-12) need daily physical activity, both recess and structured physical education. Many students need to get rid of excess energy. Others need to lose weight and get in shape. Further, many discipline problems result from making children sit all day in a classroom. Physical education should be a part of all students’ (k-12) daily schedule. It should be demanding and rigorous, resulting in an elevated heart rate and some sweating. Only athletes get that kind of physical education now.
3. Students need models for behavior. To that end, teachers need to be present, on time and prepared for each class. There are far too many teacher absences on Fridays and Mondays. Stricter guidelines for absences around a holiday or weekend should be implemented.
4. There is too much standardized testing, particularly at the elementary level. At the high school level, I applaud the elimination (finally) of the graduation test as it is replaced by End-Of-Course-Tests (EOCT). However, the EOCT should reflect the curriculum taught in the classroom. The present 9th grade English EOCT, for example, does not test students on any of the readings from the textbook that we have done. It is a generic reading comprehension test that is so easy that many of my students fail to take it seriously. Another issue is the system’s emphasis on PSAT, SAT and AP tests. In many instances, these tests are given during class time. Even more troubling is that many school systems pay the Educational Testing Service for these tests. The Educational Testing Service has been criticized for profit making and high administrative costs. These tests should be paid for by students’ families with a few exceptions made for pupils on free or reduced lunch. Let’s stop subsidizing an out-of- state company.
5. Transportation to and from school could be reformed in several ways. First, school buses should be eliminated for high school students. Instead, all students in Fulton and DeKalb counties eligible for transportation should be given a monthly MARTA pass. This is similar to the system in New York City where students take the subway or bus to school. The present system duplicates already existing MARTA routes. Even worse, many days the buses arrive late to school because they have been used earlier for elementary and middle school routes. Having ridden both school buses and MARTA buses with students, I know that most of the discipline problems on the school bus would be eliminated if the students rode with the general populace on MARTA. Teachers and staff who choose to ride MARTA to school should be given incentives for doing so, eliminating the growing parking problem for school staff. Finally, students who choose to drive to school should be required to pay for a parking pass and park in assigned spots. This would help with the problem of unwelcome visitors to the school and would generate some much needed revenue. Atlanta taxpayers should not be providing free parking to students, especially where there are public transportation alternatives.
6. Struggling students and low achieving schools need the best teachers. In order to provide the best teachers for those students who need extra help, teachers who work in low-performing schools should receive incentive pay and be given reduced class sizes. Also, teachers who teach below-grade-level students should be paid extra for the tutorials they often provide.
7. We are suffering from grade inflation. There are several reasons for this. One is that a passing grade has been raised from 60 to 70. A passing grade should be dropped to a 50 or 60, giving teachers more latitude in creating challenging tests and giving teachers a greater range of numbers for use in evaluating students. Many students are receiving a 70, not having mastered 70 percent of the work. Second, the HOPE Scholarship program has resulted in many more “B” averages. Some students that qualify for HOPE based on their GPA have not been able to pass a graduation test or get a decent score on the SAT. Many more lose their HOPE after their first year in college.
8. Eliminate the challenge and gifted programs. Too many parents are having their children privately tested, resulting in a huge increase in the “gifted.” Even worse, gifted classes are kept at 20 or fewer students. Without an increase in the number of teachers, that means that the students who really need the smaller class size are actually being placed in larger classes. Meanwhile, the gifted students, who can be effectively taught in larger classes, are now in classes that should be reserved for those needing academic help.
9. We need to provide better alternatives for the non-college bound students and provide more practical learning experiences for all students. Classes in keyboarding, wood and metal shop, auto shop, carpentry, cooking, fashion design, sewing, first aid, gardening and personal finance among many others should be expanded or introduced.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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209 comments Add your comment
Gina McNair
August 29th, 2012
6:04 pm
@Maureen, my chief concern with acceleration has to do with social functioning. Many gifted students, but certainly not all, suffer social deficits that put them at a disadvantage when placed with older peers. Of course, my opinion is colored by my own experiences as an socially awkward gifted student and by my experience as the mother to a highly intelligent child with Asperger’s.
taco taco
August 29th, 2012
6:48 pm
Where are the vocational studies? Make these kids rebuild an engine from scratch.
Ron F.
August 29th, 2012
6:59 pm
When I started teaching my principal still taught a math class, and loved it. The kids worked hard and the boss said it kept him grounded in what it’s like to teach. Too often, it’s easy to get caught up in the demands of being an admininstrator (and they are far more than I could handle), and you forget what it’s like to have 30+ young minds in front of you at one time. I think it would be reasonable to teach one class, at least every few years. I’ve worked for too many that went into administration because they were burned out or just didn’t like being in the classroom. Three years of classroom experience doesn’t cut it, and it shows. And they’re supposed to be able to objectively evaluate my performance? Yeah riiiiiight!
Ron F.
August 29th, 2012
7:02 pm
@taco: my school, and those I know of in shouting distance, have vocational programs that include a small engine class. My oldest is in one, and he took apart and rebuilt a lawn mower engine just today. He likes it, I’m glad he’s finding a passion, and the program is strong. They’re out there; we just need to get busy building them up and publicizing their work.
Grady Student
August 29th, 2012
7:34 pm
I agree wholeheartedly with what Mr. Stephens suggests, and I can assure anyone that, having taken his class, no one has proved himself as a teacher more than he. I’d like to note that, being in my senior year now, I have seen firsthand the problems that gifted programs give to a school like Grady. The population has increased, but there haven’t been more teacher hires to speak of. I, being labeled “gifted” and taking several AP courses, have not had to suffer the repercussions. Instead, we have on-level math classes with 40+ students in them, and these are the kids who will have to work to pass their EOCT’s and graduate. As a result, classes and tests seem to be getting easier and easier to accomodate the fact that students are not learning as much as they could be. The teachers are pressured to pass as many students as they can because of the standards the state has set for us. None of this has affected me or my “gifted” peers at all, but we are raised in an environment where self-motivation is expected of us. I don’t need the best teachers to learn, because I have other outlets (prodding, educated parents, money for extra tutoring, test prep courses, etc.) available if I need them. Instead of wasting a school’s best resources on the fortunate kids who don’t need them, why not use them on the students who could benefit by graduating high school?
Additionally, I wonder how people can criticize so openly the teacher quality in APS and other public school systems without wholeheartedly supporting higher pay for teachers. Unfortunately, Mr. Stephens is an exception, rather than a rule, but I dream of a day when my peers, some of whom are applying to ivy league schools this year, have a goal of becoming a teacher, right alongside lawyer and doctor.
Atlanta Mom
August 29th, 2012
7:39 pm
As the parent of three gifted children, I thought gifted classes were more important in elementary school than HS. Our elementary school used the pull out method and those children had something completely different from what was offered in the regular classroom. . In HS you have AP and advanced/honors classes, and they help keep students engaged. And when it comes to middle school, all I can say is, bless the middle school teacher.
Atlanta Mom
August 29th, 2012
7:42 pm
I agree with Mr. Stevens that students in HS would be better served by placing 40 “gifted” students in one class and having smaller classes for struggling students. The fact is, our gifted (and I do believe they are mostly high achievers, not gifted) will learn in most any environment.
Atlanta Mom
August 29th, 2012
7:43 pm
I agree with Mr. Stevens that students in HS would be better served by placing 40 “gifted” students in one class and having smaller classes for struggling students. The fact is, our gifted (and I do believe they are mostly high achievers, not gifted) will learn in most any environment.
yagottabekiddingme
August 29th, 2012
8:27 pm
All of you—-I worked alongside Mr. Stephens for nearly 7 years and what you don’t know (because he’s too modest to say it) is that this is not just another run-of-the-mill APS teacher. This is a Stanford grad, a Rhodes scholar, and one of the most highly regarded teachers at Grady (a highly regarded school). So, take what he says very seriously!!!!
Student
August 29th, 2012
8:40 pm
He thinks there shouldn’t be a gifted program? I’ve been in a couple on-level classes that made me want to blow my brains out. I’ve also been in many honors classes that made me want to do the same thing. What should be the most pertinent issue is holding teachers to the highest standards. I’m not talking about forcing restrictions or standardized testing. I’m talking about encouraging them to teach creatively and effectively and giving them the tools to do so. Sure people say that teachers are underrated, but most of my teachers just put on Law and Order and sit back and relax. However, I do agree that administrators should teach and more straight-from-highschool-to-workforce relevant classes be offered. And good God bring back recess! In addition, I think significant changes to disciplinary policy be considered such as removing dress code and electronic codes. Students should be given enough respect to make their own choices, not babied to “put their phones away” or “Wear longer skirts” until they are thrust into the adult world.
LillieGirl
August 29th, 2012
8:57 pm
I taught for 24 years. The last year I taught, the administrators in my building had spent a combined total of 13 years in the classroom before fleeing into administration. The one assigned to me spent 2 years as a parapro and then taught for 2 years. It’s really tough on teacher moral when you have someone like that picking your lessons apart or lecturing you on why you shouldn’t put a disruptive student out in the hall.
So, I left. I miss the students but I really don’t miss the administrators.
Jeanine
August 29th, 2012
9:19 pm
@ Maureen…..YOu have the voice, the platform, the chutzpah, to push these ideas upward, to make a kerfluffle, to make noise.
I , too, am a retired teacher….32 years …but in Diminished Dekalb. These ideas have merit and , if implemented, have the potential to at least accelerate the progress toward something better for our students. I hope they are not just filed away in the>” Great ideas but…….no one showed up to champion them. ” If not you, the who? If not now then when?
MB
August 29th, 2012
9:24 pm
First, to throw out the baby with the bathwater saying gifted needs to be eliminated because he’s seen private testing lead to questionable qualifications doesn’t sound like a Rhodes Scholar who did his research but a human being with some personal resentments. (Since the state waived class size limits, many gifted classes at my school are larger, on average, than on-level classes. The limit was 21 with a 10% overage factor before the waiver anyway.) Look at what our society is investing in the bottom 4% intellectually vs the top 4% and tell me how that will sustain our 1st World status.
The second point that tells me he got on a roll and failed to do what I suspect (hope?) he’d have expected of his students is that he obviously did not look at any MARTA route map compared to high schools in Fulton County. MARTA in North Fulton would not be an option for most high school students. (Of course, I guess it could be rolled into number 2 and the high schoolers could just be expected to walk 3, 5, or 7 miles each way on roads without sidewalks. Reasonable?)
With many others here, I do agree with most of his other suggestions. I think the admins would be randomly assigned classes,though, or they would get their “favorite” class with the “best” kids. That said, I’d suspect certain administrators (those with the aforementioned little classroom experience) might shorten their weak admin careers if they also had to teach. (Gratefully!!!)
Grady High School Student
August 29th, 2012
9:34 pm
I was taught by Mr. Stephens in my Freshman year at Grady High School. First I’d like to reprimand any person who may be questioning Mr. Stephens’ teaching abilities. He was one of the best English teachers I had, and the only reason I will ever understand The Iliad. Second, I’d like to ask all of you commenting on the ridiculousness of his idea to cut Gifted, when was the last time you sat in on a ‘gifted’ class? I was in only gifted/honors and AP courses for my four years of high school and I can honestly say that it made no difference. From sitting in on the regular classes at my school, I found that the same material was taught, the same discussions were had, and the same work product came out of both classes. The only differences were that the ‘gifted’ class moved about a week faster than the regular class, and there was a nice and shiny Honors stamped next to the course name. I took honors classes for two reasons, my mother wouldn’t have wanted me to go to Grady with them, and colleges think they look better. In my freshman year though, I discovered that most gifted classes aren’t truly gifted, and the people in gifted classes don’t belong there. In the end, it brings down this ‘gifted’ class and makes it the same as a gen pop class and the only left is more money for the school too spend completely unwisely. I really think that all of you parents should learn that the class isn’t going to make a difference, what is going to make a difference is your child. If your ‘gifted’ child has a desire to learn, they will, regardless of wether or not they are ‘gifted’. And also, there are some great and talented students that are coming out of APS, Grady High School, and Mr. Stephens’ teaching. With students going to Columbia, Harvard, Yale, etc, how dare you say that APS is producing less than worthy students, again, it is your child’s decision how they want to succeed. If your so called gifted student doesn’t go ivy league, you should look at your kid, not the teacher.
MB
August 29th, 2012
9:34 pm
@RonF How about three years of high school inter-related resource experience to qualify as an administrator? Same admin evaluating teachers who have 165+ students on their rolls when the admin had, realistically, probably less than 30 a day in “team-taught” classes. Really?Sadly, really.
@Grady Student, Not every gifted child has the same “prodding, educated parents, money for extra tutoring, test prep courses, etc.” They should be dumped in classes together with the struggling students? THINK about it and walk a mile in another’s mocassins. How frustrated do you think you’d have felt if you didn’t have those privileges?
Grady Student 2013
August 29th, 2012
9:43 pm
Firstly, all you suburbans attacking the man, Mr. Stephens, instead of his suggestions must not know a thing about arguments. As convincing as it may sound, insulting Mr. Stephens has absolutely no rational significance to the evaluations of his arguments.
Everyone arguing against the elimination of gifted classes has good points for the most part, but in the end, you can’t talk about gifted classes unless you are a gifted student in gifted classes, which I am, at Grady High School no less. The fact is, public schools were created so that everyone could be educated. Before public schools, only the wealthy were educated. Now that the less fortunate have the opportunity, we more-fortunate people choose to squander that by making those people second-tier to our precious “gifted” classes. If gifted classes are the only reason your kid’s in public school, there are other options like private school. I see too many “non-gifted” students around Grady everyday, not getting much of an education. I’ve taken some classes with them, I’ve seen what it’s like. 30 kids, a teacher who doesn’t give one flip, resulting in unmotivated students. With smaller class sized for the “non-blessed” kids and better teachers, these kids could actually become motivated and interested in learning.
Mr. Stephens I applaud you for speaking up, and I have the utmost respect for you.
Grady Student
August 29th, 2012
10:11 pm
@MB despite how it may be viewed on the outside, from my own experiences, a VAST majority of gifted students at Grady have the parental involvement and money that I was speaking of. There are a small number of exceptions, but can you really say that it just so happens that almost of the “gifted” students at Grady High School are upper-middle class white kids from Virginia Highlands, Morningside, Candler Park, and Lake Claire? If the breakdown of my gifted classes was a true representation, one would have to say that kids from Centennial Elementary’s school zone, or from some of the poorer areas in Grady’s zone, are somehow naturally not as smart? That’s made it pretty clear to me that gifted status’ biggest determinant is parental involvement, family income, and the like.
YALLOweMe
August 29th, 2012
10:18 pm
>>8.Eliminate the challenge and gifted programs.
What? We need to go further. Drive all parents of gifted students out of the school system. How dare they give extra help to their children? How dare they stay married? Bunch of racists!
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
10:26 pm
It’s terrific to see the student voices popping up here on the blog!
Gina McNair posted, “my chief concern with acceleration has to do with social functioning. Many gifted students, but certainly not all, suffer social deficits that put them at a disadvantage when placed with older peers.”
While this is a natural reaction that many people, including an awful lot of regular-education teachers have at the thought of accelerating students, the research doesn’t bear it out. Simply speaking, allowing a student to move ahead academically does not prove to create social difficulties for them. In fact, many advanced/gifted kids are not close friends with kids in their own age cohort.
It’s a myth that allowing kids to skip grades will somehow damage their social development.
Ron F.
August 29th, 2012
10:30 pm
@MB: you are absolutely right!! Been there, done that, and still putting up with it. It amazes me how many critiques I’ve had from people who wouldn’t last a week in a full classroom these days. It’s hard to take even their effective recommendations when you know that. It’s like making the waterboy the head coach; the team knows and it just doesn’t work out.
Ron F.
August 29th, 2012
10:35 pm
“It’s a myth that allowing kids to skip grades will somehow damage their social development.”
And the challenge is to debunk that myth, even among some of the parents. I had a kid last year who was on dual enrollment and graduated from high school with his associate’s degree. I’ve yet to understand why more kids aren’t taking advantage of dual enrollment in high school. My small system finally learned how to really understand data and we’re offering what are called “honors” courses now at the middle school that are actually accelerated courses to prepare the kids for what are being set up as truly honors level courses in high school. They’ll start high school a year ahead in as many academic areas as the data shows them ready to make it. It’s about time we did this and something I hope will encourage other systems in our area to do the same.
Sarah
August 29th, 2012
10:46 pm
We need more honors and gifted classes, not fewer!
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
10:58 pm
“I’ve yet to understand why more kids aren’t taking advantage of dual enrollment in high school.”
They aren’t presented with the information on how to do it, unless they are in the upper echelon of achievers, has been my experience. My observation of typical guidance counselors at the the high school level is that they generally spend a lot of their time advising & assisting the top 10% to 20% of performers. Kids in the middle, those in the college prep track but not in honors & AP courses, get short shrift from the counseling department. I realize this is painting with a broad brush, but I’ve been at this for a long time and have worked in several states, so I feel that I’ve had a pretty good look at the situation.
Families rely on the school to provide their high school kids with information. If kids aren’t taking advantage of dual enrollment, it’s because they don’t know that much about it, if anything. It always surprised me how little a lot of parents of high schoolers know about how to apply for financial aid for college, for example, among other aspects of it.
Dr. Monica Henson
August 29th, 2012
11:01 pm
A cynical observation might be that more high school kids aren’t presented with information about dual enrollment because if more kids knew about it, then high school populations wouldn’t be stable for a full four years, obviating the ability to forecast the need for X number of teachers and counselors and administrators and counselors and custodians and cafeteria workers and other support staff…but only a cynic who thinks that district public schools are frequently operated as jobs programs for adults would say that.
Grady Grad 2010
August 29th, 2012
11:16 pm
As a proud Grady graduate, I just want to add my support for Mr. Stephen’s proposals, and emphasize my respect for him as a teacher.
After attending an APS Elementary School (and loving it), I was forced by my parents to attend a private school for middle school. After three years of elitist administrators, students, and teachers—along with unremarkable and unchallenging classes—I begged to go to Grady. My first class was Mr. Stephen’s, and he was a wonderful, intelligent, and passionate teacher. He inspired and challenged the entire class, including myself, and instilled in me a respect and endearment for English that lasted throughout my time at Grady and continues today. With his teaching as my base, I went on to score a perfect SAT score in Reading (and close to perfect in Writing), and now attend a well-respected university at which I study Communications and English.
Grady High School is far from perfect, and I agree with all of Mr. Stephen’s suggestions for improvement. However, for those of you who discredit Mr. Stephens, as an individual, or Grady, as a quality school, please refrain from making ignorant and unkind comments about a school you’ve never attended and an educator whom you’ve never had the pleasure to meet. Even parents of Grady students cannot fully understand or appreciate the enigma and the experience that was Grady High School (my own parents are still doubtful of its merits). I can’t overstate the fact, though–I am a better educated, more unique, and more open-minded person for having attended Grady. I can only hope that APS will take Mr. Stephen’s suggestions to heart so that younger students can also have the wonderful high school experience that I did.
Another comment
August 30th, 2012
1:35 am
@dr.monica I have found that Fulton heavily promotes dual enrollment, but Cobb does not. In fact Cobb will not even give you any additional bonus point had to your gpa for class rank purposes. So they make it a disincentive when you get .5 for an honors class added to the a, b, c or 1 point added to an AP or IP. Class. So if you are competing for Val or sal I. Cobb you need to stay and do AP. Where as in Cherokee they favor the dual enrollment and give more points for that. Fulton also gives more points for dual enrollment.
At gpc they told me if your child takes all 4 classes per semester the district only gets to keep $200 in administration funds. A,ltjough it ends up being your child hope dollars being used. You end up paying around $100 per course in fees amend about $80 per book per class. Still a deal for college classes. When you consider each Ap exam is 89 And you kid may not get a score that a college will give them credit for.
Ron F.
August 30th, 2012
5:58 am
“…but only a cynic who thinks that district public schools are frequently operated as jobs programs for adults would say that. ”
I lobbed that one over the net for you, so I figured you’d say as much.
It seems to depend on the school and system as to how they approach the dual enrollemnt idea. My system didn’t promote is as much until just recently and I have to agree that not enough kids are steered towards it. One of the barriers of course is transportation, which in my district keeps quite a few eligible kids from enrolling. As Another pointed out, there’s not a lot of incentive for systems to enroll a lot of kids, and that’s a shame. I suspect on the lean budget that many charter school run, it might not be an economically feasible idea either. Perhaps that is something to point out to our legislators.
I have a great friend who is a counselor, and her experience is that the top kids have parents who monopolize a lot of her time for good reasons. In my experience, counselors have been charged with WAY too many non-counseling duties (testing, registration, scheduling, etc.) that keep them away from kids. What time they have has all too often been spent just trying to catch up with all the kids. When you typically have one counselor for every 200+ kids, you can’t get a lot of time with anything but the extreme needs at either end. Graduation “coaches” have been brought in for that reason, and they’re all too often people who have no idea how to counsel kids (Dekalb county comes to mind…yet again!). We’re using teachers as advisers to get a lot of that information out because our counselors simply have too many kids and too little time to spend in classrooms or one-on-one discussing it. But at least we’re getting the information out to them. Many systems aren’t and it’s a good opportunity, even if only a small number of kids can participate.
Tired
August 30th, 2012
8:03 am
I had no idea there was a creativity requirement. It strikes me that one of my best friends – my high school class’s valedictorian – would almost certainly not have made it into the current gifted program. He was always three years ahead in math & science; he has an engineering degree from an Ivy League university, and has multiple honors in his military and private sector careers.
But a creative writer he is definitely not, and he’d be the first to tell you that. Maybe the gifted education program needs to be restructured rather than eliminated entirely.
Tired
August 30th, 2012
8:05 am
Grady Grad 2010, what a wonderful testimony to your school and your teacher!
Woody
August 30th, 2012
8:07 am
I wonder, too, about ‘Gifted’ programs, from which 3 of my children benefited. The eldest went to a school that was too small for such a program. The teacher noticed he was soaking up all the math she could throw at him. So, she and the principal decided to float him up to the next grade every day for the 30 minutes or so they were doing math. It worked great! It had the cachet of ‘progress at your own speed’, and when he got up to high school he had some older friends to hang onto. So much effort is made in Gifted Programs to enliven the instruction, make learning fun, and expose the children to new out-of-neighborhood experiences. But wouldn’t all children benefit from that kind of intentional energy? How many children stuck in ‘average’ classes, threading their way through prescribed curriculum, are much more than ‘average’, inside?
bessbear
August 30th, 2012
8:46 am
If there are problems with too many kids being labeled “gifted”, than address how the school is determining that. Yes, there are parents who just want the bragging rights, but don’t penalize those kids who truly are academically gifted.
GT Alumna
August 30th, 2012
10:13 am
@ Dr. Monica Henson,
You are definitely on to something here with the disincentive to do dual enrollment. We live in Cobb. Our eldest is in a fantastic HS. In general, we are pretty happy with the school and courses offered. However at his Freshman advisement last year, he asked about dual enrollment opportunities for him to go to Georgia Tech since he is highly motivated. You would have thought he spit on the guidance counselor judging by her reaction. First, she stated that even if he wanted to do dual enrollment at GT, his HS probably wouldn’t even accept the credits if he could have taken an AP course at the school. She actually had the gall to tell us that most colleges and universities would look down on any GT courses he took, they probably wouldn’t accept them, and that the AP courses were harder than college courses anyway. That said, the meeting became rather entertaining for the parents seated at other tables. We felt compelled to correct her since I am a graduate of that esteemed North Avenue Trade school and my husband has been a professor for over 20 years. Hopefully, she learned a valuable lesson of “know your audience” before you mouth off. I doubt it, but one can hope.
I think it is all about the money. When my sister did dual enrollment at GT 20+ years ago, her Cobb County HS was very accommodating. She only needed to check in periodically, but for the most part, she attended GT full time with me. How times have changed.
As for the need for gifted classes, my thoughts are that IF the state and counties actually used ability grouping, tracking, and subject-matter and/or full-grade acceleration, we could do away with gifted classes. Since that is not the case, the need for gifted classes remain. I firmly believe this. Thankfully, all three of my kids have been advanced one grade so that they are being somewhat challenged at school. However, the inclusion classroom model is not efficient as there are too many disparate cohorts in the classroom. This complicates the teachers’ job and actually serves no one effectively, including gifted kids. Inclusion of multiple cohorts also happens in HS where kids are influenced to take AP and Honors courses that they have no business being in.
And as a final comment, the gifted label needs to be applied consistently across all counties and even across schools within the counties. I repeat… follow the money. Schools receive financial incentives if they identify “gifted” kids. Case in point, my daughter’s elementary school required scores in the 98th percentile, while an ES within 2 miles required scores on the same test to be only 92nd percentile. Hmmm? Do you smell anything? I do. This other ES is not doing those kids any favors as MS and HS will sort out who is gifted and who is not.
Case in Point
August 30th, 2012
10:16 am
“Too many parents are having their children privately tested, resulting in a huge increase in the ‘gifted.’”
Evidenced by every other commenter here being the parent of a “gifted” student. News alert: statistically speaking, your little darlings are almost certainly NOT gifted!
Soccermom
August 30th, 2012
10:19 am
I participated in the “Gifted” program in Georgia in the mid-70s and my children have been in similar programs from the mid-90s. My husband is an engineer and I have degrees in music and biological sciences.
Here are the opinions I have developed from our experiences:
1. The current practice of pulling gifted, elementary school students out one day a week for “enrichment” is a waste of time.
2. To actually achieve more learning, especially by the “gifted” or “high-achievers”, the grouping of students in core academic areas by learning speed should begin in early elementary school. Grouping is a much more efficient way of teaching the students of ALL speeds.
3. Mainstreaming SpEd students is detrimental to the average and above-average students in that the pace of learning, and therefore the span and volume of knowledge, suffer.
4. Gifted students and high achievers may actually be shorted more than SpEd students because the first category of students will usually succeed (by “average” standards) despite lower quality teachers and less funds whereas the effects of non-optimal conditions are more quickly seen with SpEd students.
5. Schools do a poor job of teaching good study skills to gifted students. I guess that, because these students can coast through average-level materials, it is assumed that they have the study skills to succeed at challenging subjects too.
6. By high school, accelerated classes, along with AP and IB, should take the place of gifted classes if gifted/non-gifted education is used instead of grouping.
7. Increasing rigor at the high school level is not nearly as effective if rigor is not increased at the elementary and, subsequently, middle school levels. Nor is it reasonable to expect a student who has coasted through elementary and middle schools to achieve his/her highest potential in high school with that history!
8. Never discount the effect of motivation!! Or laziness, for that matter
9. My “bright” child, and every other gifted or high-achieving student, is not in school to be another, slower-learning child’s tutor!
10. The blame for non-achieving students and schools cannot be place solely at the feet of the parents, teachers, administrators, or society. We all share, in varying ways and degrees, in any failures of our educational system(s).
Jared
August 30th, 2012
10:27 am
“We felt compelled to correct her since I am a graduate of that esteemed North Avenue Trade school and my husband has been a professor for over 20 years. Hopefully, she learned a valuable lesson of ‘know your audience’ before you mouth off.”
Wow, you sound insufferable. I’ve found that Tech and especially UGA grads tend to overestimate the prestige of their alma maters. Speaking as an Atlanta transplant, outside of Georgia, Tech is considered a good, but not great, university and UGA is regarded as a party school not unlike Florida State or LSU.
Entitlement Society
August 30th, 2012
10:27 am
Interesting that the Grady students give disparate accounts of what a gifted versus non-gifted classroom is like. One says they are the same except the gifted class is one-week ahead of the regular class. The other (Grady Student 2013) paints a different picture of non-gifted classes – “30 kids, a teacher who doesn’t give one flip, resulting in unmotivated students,” saying they could benefit from the environment of a gifted class.
Grady High School Student even says…”From sitting in on the regular classes at my school, I found that the same material was taught, the same discussions were had, and the same work product came out of both classes.” Wow. As a parent, I would be appalled it my child has the exact same discussions and work product in a gifted class versus a regular class. This doesn’t say much for either the teachers or students at Grady. I find it difficult to believe that a teacher would lead the same level of discussion in a gifted class and expect the same work product versus a mainstream class. Again, Grady High School Student, you’re not painting a very rosy picture of your own school. If your statements are true, it sounds like Grady has already done away with the gifted program. Problem solved! Government school at its finest.
APS Parent
August 30th, 2012
11:07 am
As a Grady HS parent for the past seven years, I want to say “thank you” to Scott Stephens for his wonderful contribution to students and the GHS community throughout your career, as confirmed by the testimonials above from your own students. And thanks also for having the courage to propose your excellent and thought-provoking recommendations. Viewing some of the personal (and generally non-substantive) attacks appearing in some of the comments, you obviously struck a nerve when you challenged the wisdom of gifted programs, which have become something of a Holy Grail for many parents. Now that you are retired from the classroom, please continue to let your voice be heard.
APS Parent
August 30th, 2012
11:27 am
To Entitlement Society: From the available data, it is hard to make any serious argument that the “gifted students” at Grady High are being short-changed by this “Government school.” Look at the SAT scores and the college admissions (numerous top schools, including Ivy Leagues, every year) of the top quarter of the class. I challenge you to find any school, “government school” or otherwise, doing better with its high achievers. And Grady (unlike your precious “non-government schools”) does not get to pick its students. It amazes me that one with even a passing knowledge of American history can ignore the incredible contribution of public education to our success as a prosperous and democratic society. But when one has a purely ideological agenda, the facts can never be allowed to interfere with one’s world view.
Entitlement Society
August 30th, 2012
1:10 pm
@ APS Parent – I’m just going by the facts stated by current Grady students posting here on this blog. It’s a shame that the poster sees no difference between a regular class and a gifted class at Grady other than learning the material one week in advance and a “nice and shiny Honors stamped next to the course name.” (See “Grady High School Student” post.)
Dr. Monica Henson
August 30th, 2012
3:18 pm
Ron F., thanks for the softball.
We make it known to all our students and parents that we are happy to arrange dual enrollment if they want it. As a result, we are getting quite a bit of request for dual enrollment options from our families in Provost Academy Georgia. If a student attends college at the same time they are enrolled with us, of course that reduces the amount of time that we have them and can draw down funding on their behalf–but it’s the right thing to do because there are so many advantages & benefits to the student. We have removed the big box school from the schooling equation–we don’t have large physical plants that have to be maintained and funded, we don’t hire custodial, maintenance, and cafeteria personnel, and we don’t have traditional “classes” in the sense that a brick and mortar school has, so we don’t need a certificated adult for every 30 or so kids.
As a result, we are well-positioned to be able to deal with the fact that many of our high school freshmen may only be with us for three years instead of four. And those kids who can fly high and do things like dual enrollment college courses don’t take 90 minutes a day from our teaching staff; our teachers are able to act much more as academic guides for them as they take charge of most of their own learning & accumulate their high school graduation requirement credits, freeing the teachers’ time to focus on live learning sessions for those kids who need extra help to understand, and to work with high-risk kids we will have in our Magic Johnson Bridgescape centers.
It really is a win/win/win, for the colleges, for PAGA, and most importantly, for the students. And it requires rethinking the purpose of schooling–what is best for the student has to take center stage, and everything else needs to be designed around that premise.
Ron F.
August 30th, 2012
5:08 pm
“And it requires rethinking the purpose of schooling–what is best for the student has to take center stage, and everything else needs to be designed around that premise.”
Lordy, I about fell over in a faint reading those words!!
Ironically, that’s what every teacher worthy of the title believes, and what far too many above that level SAY without the actions to back it up. If you do nothing else as a leader in a school setting, please listen to your teachers and use the ideas they have. If there is one fundamental difference between our approaches to education, let it be that.
You appear to be in a perfect position to encourage dual enrollment. I’ve long argued that the warehouse approach of large high schools hampers our ability to truly understand and serve the needs of individual kids. Do you see charters remaining small enough to do that, or do you believe you can translate your design into larger settings? I think larger schools are going to be harder to manage and a hugh challenge to staff with enough to keep the small group focus.
Ron F.
August 30th, 2012
5:10 pm
hugh….huge. That’s what I get for typing after a day with ninth graders!! LOL
Prof
August 30th, 2012
9:02 pm
Here’s another reform, courtesy of Governor Nathan Deal and our state legislature.
My TRS Retirement newsletter for Summer 2012 informs me Deal has just signed a bill that repeals by June 30, 2013 the law allowing TRS retirees to return to work after 12 months and still receive their pension. The original repeal bill put the date at 2016, but he changed it to 2013.
IMPORTANT TO KNOW for all TRS retirees or those soon to retire. Call TRS for details!!
Dr. Monica Henson
August 30th, 2012
11:28 pm
Ron F., everything we are doing is being done with an eye toward the future, toward scalability and replication, and being able to convince district high school personnel that they can do it, too. Having a small incubator operating in a hothouse doesn’t do much to change the game. Charter schools at the high school level are not as plentiful as elementary and middle schools, for good reason. High school is hard to do.
GT Alumna
August 31st, 2012
4:03 pm
@ Jared,
Think whatever you like about me, but you are missing the point. The guidance counselor’s claim that his HS classes would be more challenging than any class my son wants to take at GT is ridiculous. High School is not college, no matter how you dress it up. And for her to patently dismiss his inquiries without listening to WHY he is even asking the question just belies her title as a GUIDANCE counselor. I will continue to advocate for my son, and I make no apologies for challenging the status quo.
I’m happy to hear that Dr. Henson and Ron F. have witnessed kids doing dual enrollment. It’s a shame this is not pushed statewide. In my experience, Deal’s Move On When Ready spiel is just propaganda.
Donna
September 1st, 2012
8:31 am
I am in a district which doesn’t have any form of Gifted courses before high school level that are not a once a week pull-out, and I’m homeschooling my daughter because of this. Her needs weren’t being met, she wasn’t learning, and she was frustrated and depressed. It is NOT the case that she can learn in any classroom, because the typical 2nd grade classroom isn’t teaching at the level she needs to learn and isn’t going to accommodate for a child who wants to learn algebra, but struggles to do the writing required to do a page in a math book. We’re potentially moving to the Atlanta area for my husband’s job, and if this writer’s ideas take root, guess she’ll be homeschooled there, too.
KarenB
September 1st, 2012
9:15 am
I think it’s fine to remove ineffective gifted programs as long as something else is in place. It would not be right to give struggling students all the attention and expect the gifted to be bored out of their minds all day. Each child should learn at his/her own level and pace. I think more and more technology options can be used to allow self-paced learning. My child is homeschooled, thankfully. He grades his own math work and is miles ahead of what the schools can provide.
AtlantaMomAndEngineer
September 1st, 2012
12:08 pm
Every child deserves to have his/her educational needs met.
Therefore we need more, not fewer, gifted / challenge programs. When you teach these kids how to stop learning, they can’t just start up again. We can’t just expect these kids to learn discipline and persistence when we demand of them that they daydream their way through a ten-hour day.
If a small child is ready to learn language and you deprive them of a rich language environment, the relative deficit is lifelong. Likewise for gifted students.
Really, we need to stop talking about “boredom” and recognize that this is not the problem. The problem is that of fairness and consistency. It’s tragically ironic that we are depriving so many students of the opportunity to use their minds — which we say is the reason for being in school — and we resent their enthusiasm for learning — which we say is what we want to foster. We spend lots of time and attention — and rightly so — on programs to help those who need more help. We should also spend similar time and attention to support those whose needs are at the other end of the learning spectrum. They have a right to support, too. But the spend in dollars and legislation on these kids is miniscule compared to the level of support for those who need help to catch up.
We should take care of all our students.
TeacherMom4
September 2nd, 2012
10:07 am
Obviously the lightning rod issue on the list is gifted. As an elementary school teacher, I admit to seeing little benefit to the pull-out model. Unfortunately, I am not sure what else to do for our gifted/high achiever students. I am expected to “differentiate” in every area I teach, but the whole idea relies on kids doing what they’re supposed to do at all times. My struggling students are the ones who can’t/won’t work independently while I instruct another group on what they need to do. Consequently, my high achievers end up getting less of me. I became gifted certified last year, but I don’t think I can truly teach gifted students in a different way unless they are the only ones I have to teach. I am certainly more mindful of the types of questions I ask and tasks that I assign, but I don’t feel that this is truly what is needed.
I dislike the pull-out model. If the time out of the classroom is daily, the kids are missing instruction in one content area every day. Just because they’re missing reading does not mean the gifted teacher is teaching reading. They may be doing thinking skills or enrichment material. Gifted kids still need some instruction in the content area. We can’t expect them to just teach themselves, especially if their area of strength is not the one being missed.
I also believe too many kids are qualifying. I think IQ and achievement on nationally normed tests should be the gifted benchmarks. When teachers are being coached on how to score a rubric so kids will make the cut, something is wrong. I interviewed at a school that boasted 26% of its students were gifted. How is that possible? If that many are gifted, then “gifted” really doesn’t mean much; it’s more average. I think services should maybe start at middle school, where kids are taught one content area per period and kids could be grouped based on talent/aptitude. There is too much disparity in ability in elementary classrooms. Most teachers cannot meet the needs of all students adequately, so what do they do? They teach to the bottom because that is ultimately what they will be held responsible for. Fair? Not really. Reality? Absolutely. It’s difficult to be all things to all people at all times.
Another HS Math Teacher
September 2nd, 2012
1:16 pm
Jared, you’re a dufus
Georgia Tech was within the last year rated the # 1 College/University in US for the return on tuition investment for its graduates.
How can a school rank this high and not be great?