New study: Urban charter schools draw nearly a third of their students from private schools

Great! the Parents most likely to afford Private School, are Now getting it for FREE!
This is what I would call ” The GOLDEN WELFARE PLAN”.

The Lucky Gene Pool Strikes, Again! All they Do, is just show UP and Smile!

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Great. My daughter spent her first eight grades in private school. We did this so we could better control her environment and were willing to sacrifice our income to get her the kind of personalized attention it takes to prepare her academically. We did not ask the government to help us in any way and we have dutifully paid all of our taxes along the way. Now that she is prepared she applies for and is accepted into a school with a concentration on math and science and she excels. Sounds great on paper.

For having the willingness to forego new cars or fancy vacations we have been labeled elitists. We have been accused of providing our children a false homogeneous environment where she was unprepared for the so called “real world”. Never mind that her schools were both more ethnically and culturally diverse than the schools she would have been forced to attend. Nope. Not good enough for some people.

Now that her hard work and our sacrifice have prepared her to take on a challenging math and science curriculum, she attends a magnet public school. How dare we do this and take away a slot some other kid could have used. How dare we think she has just as much right to attend as some other kid.

Over the years I have found myself caught up in traffic around the schools my kids would have attended. As I sit in my car I observe the Moms and Dads dropping their precious snowflakes off from their shiny new cars. I think to myself, maybe I could sacrifice my kids future so I could also enjoy a nice Lexus or BMW. Now that she attends this public school you would think I am able to do that, wouldn’t you? No. The reality is that we spend about the same amount on tutoring and saving for college.

I question a lot of your priorities in life. I have watched our single mom Admin Assistant sacrifice a huge chunk of her income in order to put her kid through the same schools our kids attend.

Bernie, you come across as a smug jerk. How dare you suggest that my child is in any way favored by this system. If anything, my child was a victim of this system. We were willing to give up much to prevent her from being chewed up by a dangerously flawed system, a system held at the mercy of teachers unions and rampant political correctness.

Mabe Mr. Bernie is right. Maybe my kids did win by being born to my wife and me. We were willing to give up much to give them an opportunity to grow beyond what was probable in our public schools. Maybe you are content to watch your child in that environment. So as you sit back in the regal splendor of your leather clad Lexus watching Bernie Jr. Head into schools that you know are substandard, you can lauugh at us chumps. Maybe Bernie Jr. Will beat the odds. We weren’t willing to take that chance. You get one shot at raising your child. We are giving it our best shot.

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There is no union here in ga to speak of. I wonder how your close mindedness has affected your child more than the lack of public school. Choice is a parental right but thr article is about cherrypicking kids who have choice and losing that opportunity for kids who dont. Not everyone drives a lexus and some people dont have the luxury for saving for college on their psy chech to paycheck life. Free your mind and the rest will follow….to paraphrase a song

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“What is the true cost of expanding public charter schools when the formerly private school students are properly counted as a new expenditure?”

Why would it be counted “properly” as a new expenditure? What if a private school parent just suffered a pay decrease and could not afford private school any more? No charters involved. Would you then count their children as “extra new expenditures”? Their parents paid just as much taxes as you did. They have been subsidizing YOUR child’s education. You use their money to pay the $30,000 a year for that SPED student.

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I doubt if too many sentient folks will be surprised that, on a large scale, charters draw large numbers of their kids from private schools. I should not have been surprised that this would then lead for a call to “protect” private schools by offering public-paid incentives to “keep the privates running.”

Folks, it isn’t the business of government to support private schools, through either vouchers or tuition credits. Its first obligation is to properly fund regular education facilities. In Georgia, that has yet to happen, and it can be blamed/attributed almost completely to our legislators. Anything that interferes with that support should result in the legislators being held personally accountable!

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Why, exactly, are we supposed to be up in arms here? Those private school children are children too – children who also have the right to attend their neighborhood public schools. Why is it a problem that their parents exercised a choice to send them private (while still paying taxes to help fund the public schools, by the way) then exercised another choice to send them to a public charter school? Why all this hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth around families having and exercising options?

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I’m still trying to understand the math behind the “third of the students.” How is this number being calculated?

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How incredibly nice it would be to have a safe, academically challenging school of my child to attend.

You left out “FOR FREE.”

How incredibly nice it would be if I got nice, comprehensive personally selected police services FOR FREE.

How incredibly nice it would be if I got private roads built how and where I want FOR FREE.

You’re not bad guys for wanting the best for your children. However you pay taxes at the same rate I do, and I have no kids in school. I have never used public schools in any state. Those taxes are an investment in the next generation.

My personal interest is not in just your kid, it is in ALL kids. And when you start using MY tax dollars to partition the schools and create schools for your child at the expense of other children you bet your sweet bippie you are the bad guy. Your interests are opposed to mine. If you want to spend your money, great. That’s what I did, that’s what my parents did. I salute you. But this creation of multiple fiefdoms because you don’t like the public services available is immoral and self-centered because it places YOUR child at the center of the universe. That’s where they should be—for you. Not for everyone else.

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Cat lady is right.
Yep , I am a tax payer. And my kids go to private school. My public school tax burden…
less than $100. (!) No wonder our local gov’t schools aren’t so hot.
Until we, and our legislators decide that public education is important and should be well funded, my kids will remain in private school.

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those greedy rich kids again……. we can’t possibly EVER have the govt involved in something that helps THOSE KIDS! After all, their parents didn’t work hard to get what they have….they “didn’t build it”.

Yep, let’s continue to demonize and punish success….that’ll help us solve the countries ills.

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@ John Konop – I do understand what you are saying when you say, “I have no issue with charter schools as long as the private company takes a bigger risk than tax payers.” The risk is closure. And in fact, many of the management organizations invest early on in the building, initial supplies, textbooks, and personnel before tax dollars ever start flowing. They do this assuming a long range relationship where they will eventually recoup this initial investment.

My question to you is how is risk/accountability different with traditional district boards? Is there any guarantee that they won’t squander tax payer funds? And if they DO squander the funds or don’t perform, what recourse is there? They don’t close.

Please check out the information I posted on a different Maureen topic last night…I’m interested to know your thoughts.

Data sources:
http://www.open.georgia.gov
http://www.doe.k12.ga.us (Report Card, allotment sheet for # students)

Pataula Charter Academy:

· Serves 5 school districts (Baker, Early Randolph, Calhoun, and Clay Counties).
· 290 students
· They have 1 principal a business manager, and an office clerk. Like all state chartered special schools, they have the same responsibilities as any other district/LEA. They spend $0 on central/general administration.
· $4900 per pupil last school year; comparing this school to all school districts in the state, it is the lowest funded of all of them (with the lowest district being at 6086, Pike County).
· Although they were extremely lean and had to make some VERY tough decisions, and their facility is mainly used modulars, they:
o Pay on the state salary schedule
o Did not furlough their teachers
o Did not cut school days
· They made AYP

Reading CRCT:

3rd Meets/Exceeds – 90.5%
4th Meets/Exceeds – 90.7%
5th Meets/Exceeds – 81.2%
6th Meets/Exceeds – 100%
7th Meets/Exceeds – 100%
8th Meets/Exceeds – N/A

Math CRCT:

3rd Meets/Exceeds – 90.5%
4th Meets/Exceeds – 86%
5th Meets/Exceeds – 90.6%
6th Meets/Exceeds – 96.4%
7th Meets/Exceeds – 96.3%
8th Meets/Exceeds – N/A

· Dr. Barge did NOT name this a quality school according to HIS data…

Baker County:

· Serves 332 students in 1 school
· Total per pupil amount is $14,471.64, which is the 3rd highest per pupil funding in the state. Even comparing just state and local per pupil amounts, the district is at $12,417 per pupil, which is still the 3rd highest per pupil funding in the state.
· Spent only 57.7% of its budget on instruction, which is ranked #173/180 districts in lowest investment into instruction
· Spent 16.4% of its budget on general administration (central office), which is more than $500,000. The district is ranked #179/180 districts in highest amount spent on central administration.
· The district has at least 4 administrative staff doing central/general administration functions PLUS a principal, assistant principal, secretary, and IT support.
· The superintendent’s salary in 2011 was $101,827 + 13,434 (transition to a new superintendent) for a total of $115,261
· Superintendent’s travel expenditures were $5459.81
· Other travel expenditures were $29,995.98 (including: $5113.41 for the Technology Director; $1369 for a bookkeeper; and $1323 for a central administration support person)
· Spent $8417 and $280, respectively for dues and fees to the Georgia School Boards Association and the Georgia School Superintendents Association…these are lobbying organizations.
· They did NOT make AYP and have been on the Needs Improvement list for 3 years.

Reading CRCT:

3rd Meets/Exceeds – 69.2%
4th Meets/Exceeds – 69.6%
5th Meets/Exceeds – 72.4%
6th Meets/Exceeds – 88.5%
7th Meets/Exceeds – 89.5%
8th Meets/Exceeds – 91.7%

Math CRCT:

3rd Meets/Exceeds – 53.8%
4th Meets/Exceeds – 56.5%
5th Meets/Exceeds – 69.0%
6th Meets/Exceeds – 60.0%
7th Meets/Exceeds – 84.2%
8th Meets/Exceeds – 41.7%

· Superintendent John Barge is against the Constitutional Amendment because he says we don’t need it and our traditional districts are underfunded.

Some questions for tax payers to ponder:

Are you getting a good return on your investment? Is reform needed? Does anyone really think that if a district cannot self monitor and manage money and ensure academic outcomes NOW that they will ever do on their own?

Teachers are being furloughed in our state, school days are being cut, resources for instruction are lean, morale is low….but rather than addressing the problem, charters are blamed and misinformation is purposefully publicized, and the state is blamed. The public is told that charters will “bankrupt” our school systems….it looks to me like the districts are going to bankrupt themselves with their mismanagement and poor prioritization. And above all, we have many, many failing students, and this is negatively impacting our local and state economies.

Charters are intended to push improvements in public school efficiency and outcomes. Above is just ONE example of why we DO need them.

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Sounds like competition to me and when you have that, the students win.

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According to the article, the majority of the students come from public schools. We should ask, ” How much tax money are the private school kid’s parents contributing vs how much comes from the public school kids?”. How much are parents paying for their child’s seat at the charter school? Why is there a complaint about the private school students moving into charter, especially when 85 percent of the H.S. students are from public schools? I also wonder how much money would have been spent in a traditional public school towards a student who would otherwise go to a prep school vs the average student on free lunch. Some folks complain about a $2,500.00 voucher, when it supposedly costs$9,000.00 to educate one child in a public school . The local Catholic schools churn them out for$6,000 with a lot higher success rate, while giving a large amount of scholarships to the less fortunate. What we are actually trying to say here ” How dare you take advantage of the services you paid for.”

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Bravo Reverie, I applaud your choices and you have every right to your indignance.

p.s.-To the public school teachers and administrators commenting with vitriol at the notion of an alternative to your entitled situation….those private school and charter school parents are paying education taxes every year that funds your “jobs programs”

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Wonder when the world will wake up and realize the school, whether public, charter or private, is no better than the parents and kids that attend.

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Please keep in mind that the Cato Institute is a “research organization that promotes free-market, small-government policies.” I’m not sure how you can be a “research” institute and “promote” only one possible answer at the same time, but I’m positive it biases your findings.

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@ John Knonop – A few points.

1. I HOPE we start tracking student progress across years and environments. You see, the charters are not afraid of that. Let’s track students in 3 year blocks and see how they fare in both environments. I believe that will be very, very telling.

Look at the scores above in Baker County. How much confidence can that 8th grade parent have that their 7th grader (who likely had a decent 7th grade teacher based on the scores) is not going to drop like a stone in math? We have a new longitudinal data system that will be able to do this very soon (if not now). We need to USE it to show progress of students in all environments.

2. I beg to differ that the district boards are not making off with tax payer money. They are PAID for their service. Go look on open.georgia.gov at how much money is paid out to school board members across this state – it’s millions. If they serve in a district not performing to minimal state standards (which is a scary lot of them), then they are not doing their job…and neither is the district office staff entrusted with the job of management and oversight. They are PAID to ensure students perform. Period.

You are right they can be voted out…but have you ever, ever seen anyone post the data like I have above? Districts don’t share what’s REALLY going on in their districts either financially or academically. It’s either kept hush-hush, blamed on the state for “lack of funding”, bolstered by euphemisms like APS just used the other day (We are “poised for success.” Sheesh – what a load of malarky), or in the smaller districts the officials are so ingrained in their communities that no one would consider voting them out even if they do a horrific job.

We HAVE to have a checks and balances in place to protect both the tax payers and the children.

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I love to read how college trained minds have completely messed up the educational system. If only school was voluntary with no federal government involvement.

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All this goes to show one thing: the public school system, especially in the urban areas, is such a cluster that any and every kind of alternative is thought about and debated.

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Thanks Maureen. The research is in and from a much quoted, conservative think tank. Unfortuneately, I don’t think the facts will be enough to stop this costly nightmare that is part of destroying education in GA.

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@ Proud Teacher – has it ever occurred to you that the local districts are making decisions that are impacting your work in the classroom.

Look at Baker County above….how do you think the teachers there feel? I’d be pretty resentful if I was furloughed or didn’t have what I needed in the classroom with this kind of crazy waste going on.

The point is that we have central office bureaucracies that are KILLING our public education system with their poor priorities and excessive spending. Charters aren’t trying to kill the system – only the waste and crappy decision making this is impacting our public school classrooms….including our teachers who are at an all time low with morale.

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I am fully aware that the local board and administration are making radical decisions that are harming our public schools, but charter schools are not the answer to the demise of the public school. If the students were all in the real public school,then there wouldn’t be furloughs and other such cuts because of the student population and the state funding of techers’ salaries. We have too much unused unnecessary technology, too many administrators, and too much manipulation of school funds. Students are not items of merchandise in a store. It’s impossible to have a decent learning environment when the powers-that-be want to handle the school like it’s a business. Charter schools are businesses; their bottom line is money and not the achievements of the students.

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@ Proud teacher –

First of all, the majority of charters are run by parents and community members. They are terribly underfunded and still make it on lean budgets. A few use management organizations, but the vast majority don’t.

I do not think the charters will completely “fix” the woes of the traditional districts. What I DO think though is that they are causing districts to rethink their priorities, to step up their game. It is opening conversation with policy makers about what makes sense with educational funding and how that ties to economic development and the overall health of our state and its citizens. Charters are game changers in public education. They are pushing the envelope and raising the bar.

Consider how they can be used to improve conditions in your school and classroom. If teachers in this state stepped out and said, “ENOUGH! I’m TIRED of my central office syphoning classroom funds to support a bureaucracy. I am TIRED of getting the blame for failing our kids when I don’t have the resources I need to actually instruct.” If you all stood up and supported something like chartering, then the districts would have no choice but to rethink how they do business.

I am not trying to “spin” you – but think hard about it – and broadly. I’ve been in the public school classroom for many years and felt helpless to district decision making (until I joined the charter sector). Something has to change – communities are demanding it, and teachers should, too. We are losing wonderful teachers in public education because they can’t stand what’s going on anymore, and in the process, we our losing the battle with educating kids. It’s a travesty.

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@CharterStarter Too – You didn’t mention the private school children that have been recruited from counties outside the 5 that you serve that are using “fake” addresses to attend when there are children from underprivileged families within the area that have been denied. You may want to add that to your not so accurate “statistics”. I think this is what Maureen is highlighting in her article. Thumbs up Maureen!

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In my opinion, the public school system is all about holding back the cognitive elite in hopes their dimmer and duller cousins will catch up. We are now in the third generation of retarding the growth of the cognitive elite, and the dumb cousins are just as far behind. But we have succeeded in lowering the accomplishments of the best and brightest. It is time to end public education funded on someone else’s dime. Let the parents pay for the education they and their children deserve, then maybe both will put some value on it. As long as some other guy is paying the bill, public education will be 1) a welfare program for education majors, 2) a baby sitting service for the poor, 3) a method for slowing the education of the cognitive elite. In another generation or two, we may be the most diverse nation in the world, but we will also be one of the poorest. Try eating diversity for dinner, I think you will find it very unsatisfactory!

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Hmmmmm wonder what word tripped the auto snagger………

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@CharterStarter, Too
Thank you for your information, after visiting http://www.open.georgia.gov, I’m furious at the amount of money being spent on salaries for redundant school board administration positions. Absolutely ridiculous.
@Proud Teacher
You claim that it’s impossible to run the schools and classrooms when the objective is “business interests” yet you rail against the bloated administration and wasted resources. Wouldn’t a more efficient model be a step in the right direction? Or are you opposed to accountability to results?

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@ Atl Mom –

Check Baker Count demographic again … Including census data.

Yep – in one year they turned some students around academically.

Are you implying that poor black students can’t learn math? Baker did pretty well in reading…why not math? How about the 90-90-90 schools? If they can do it, why can’t Baker?

Always the excuses about demographics. Charters offer no excuses.

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probably the “What miserable selfish p****s” line.

Or the fact that you are an incessant crybaby who resents hard working parents that value the education of their children and don’t want to see them grow up to rant on a blog about the “elites” and how evil they are. Just a guess.

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Dear Fred – Your blessed “public money” is my tax money, taxes that I have to pay to support your public welfare. The poor pay almost nothing in taxes, but certainly take a nice long ride on the public infrastructure! I went to a park this weekend, it was filled to overflowing with hispanics. I bet most were illegals, and pay almost nothing in taxes. It is my understanding that the “public” parks and sports fields around Atlanta (including Cobb) are now completely controlled and dominated by Hispanic people on Saturday and Sunday, just as the public schools have been taken over by the Hispanics, everything that my tax dollar supports is now controlled by the poor. The path to the bottom has been paved with the “public money” you claim belongs to the poor, but is in reality my tax dollar filtered through uncle stupids filter (big uncle stupid, middle sized uncle stupid, and the local version of uncle stupid).

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So what? The kids who move from private schools to charter schools have just as much right to a publicly funded education as any other child. Not all parents who send their kids to private school are rich; many are making sacrifices to scrape together the money to pay the tuition. Charter schools offer a way for these families to put their kids in a better learning environment without the financial struggle of tuition.

Most parents who send their kids to private or charter schools, or homeschool their kids, believe that their children are too good for public schools. They probably won’t come out and say that because they don’t want to offend anyone, but it’s true. Are they a bunch of selfish, elitist snobs? No, because most of them believe that ALL kids are too good for public schools.

It seems that the people who support charter schools are interested in the quality of education their kids are getting and the environment in which they are getting it. On the other hand, the anti-charter folks are all for protecting the interests of the educational establishment, no matter how ineffective it may be. To be honest, I couldn’t care less about protecting the interests of school boards, office workers, and teachers who are afraid of change and innovation.

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@ PrivateParent – That’s funny, truly. First of all, charters have to obtain the same residency information that all public schools require, and in fact, our charters also had to sign an affidavit on this information. Could a parent “fake” the data – I suppose, but given the multiple requirements for identification, that seems difficult. The probability of that occurring is no different from parents faking residency data to attend schools in other districts and better schools within a district. Didn’t we just hear of a public school mom somewhere faking residency and going to jail?

Good try….but try again.

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I have noticed that if you use certain key words, any profanity, and clearly racist words, the automatic filters kick your comment into moderation. The filters also catch slightly mis spelled key words, so innocent mistakes get filtered out.

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@ Teacher&Mom – dig into the numbers. You’ll see I’m right…..

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Maureen Downey @ 11:31 am – LOL! I agree with you. Yes strange things are being said here today!

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It’s simply a fact that it’s easier to create the culture that you want at a new of “greenfield” site and difficult or impossible to change what you don’t want in an existing or “brownfield” site, no matter how much money that you throw at it. In comparison with other countries, we invest huge sums for paltry achievement.

The authoritarian, bureaucratic culture within public education is 75 years out of date; and most of the public are like factories, which is what bureaucracies are organized to run. From what I read and hear, I could never teach for long in public school due to out-of- date culture and inability to effectively discipline disruptive “students.”

I’d like to see ALL schools be charter schools competing against one another and parents given vouchers for wherever they’d like their kids to go. The logistics of getting students to school would be difficult, but with competition an effective motivator for best practices, we would probably see an improvement quickly.

Way too many high school “grads” that strike you as well spoken and intelligent arrive at college without much more than a pulse and in need of additional high school level reading and math courses. There’s just no excuse for this.

We’ve reached the point where in some areas, the existing public schools are begging for wholesale replacement by newly organized institutions, because they’re doing more harm than good.

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CharterStarterToo and others will point to New Orleans as an example of how Charter Schools improve educational opportunities.

Valerie Strauss at the WashPost has and interesting post that discusses the “New Orleans Miracle”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/to-sec-duncan-re-what-you-said-about-new-orleans-schools/2012/08/28/0cd30ef2-ec68-11e1-aca7-272630dfd152_blog.html

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“Its first obligation is to properly fund regular education facilities.”

The State’s first obligation is to “provide an adequate education” – look at the Constitution.

Providing an education starts with a lot less than funding. It starts with enforcing attendance laws. It starts with maintaining discipline in the classrooms so the teachers can teach. It starts with retaining students who have not mastered the subject so the next teacher is not saddled with the duty to “catch them up”. These things don’t cost a lot of money! Do them first and you will see your school start to improve. These are the things that are missing in regular schools that make parents want the choice of a charter school.

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pk @ 8:18 am – I am sorry the Indignation was misplaced, misguided, reacting out of pure personal frustration and completely wrong on ALL levels!

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@fred

August 28th, 2012
10:54 am

probably the “What miserable selfish p****s” line.

Or the fact that you are an incessant crybaby who resents hard working parents that value the education of their children and don’t want to see them grow up to rant on a blog about the “elites” and how evil they are. Just a guess.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I love the way you are too timid to use a name, you just @ everyone. Well @ you……

Pay for your OWN private school. Quit trying to stealmoney from the rest of the population. I resent a “hard working parent?” Now how do you draw that insipid comparison? i’m a hard workiong parent who PAYS for my daughter to go to private school. I’m not trying to plunder YOUR pocket to pay for MY daughter’s education.

You don’t hear me whining about my taxes going to pay for public school, I’m all for it. Whaty I’m not for is YOU stealing MY tax money to pay for YOUR PRIVATE school.

What is so hard timid @ everyone for you to understand about that?

Have you anything constructive to @ me about or do you just have little snarky comments to post behind your little @’s?

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If I read the premise of this blog and many of you LeftWing people, poverty is an excuse for stupidity, meaning poverty causes stupidity. As usual, you LeftWingers have it backwards, stupidity causes poverty. If you are poor in America today, then you have earned it, you deserve your poverty. Don’t worry though, the Washington Thugs will collect taxes from the producers to fund food stamps, Medicaid, and social security disability for you and yours.

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So sick of this type of attitude!!! The parents that sent their children to private school all of those years were still ALSO paying taxes!!! The public schools basically got free funds without any student attending. How dare anyone say the private school parent wants the FREE RIDE you have gotta be kidding me!!!!! It has been and always will be the ones that have taken everything for free and still expect it that should be ashamed of themselves!!!!!!!!!!

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Side note on vouchers …

Why are people so against education vouchers? Are those same people against all of our other voucher programs: food vouchers (food stamps), living vouchers, medical vouchers (medicaide), etc…

If we means tested for education vouchers, wouldn’t it be the same thing?

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Is there anyone left that believes in “common schools”? I used to, even managed to start an attempt at one,…. “urban” public ones aren’t..because residential school assignment + residential real estate price segregation works against it. Private one’s aren’t because of entrance and cost barriers. A charter school is the only one that has any hope of being common…and here we want to stigmatize anyone who ISN’T poor that is willing to put their kids with others that are…

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If the approach that charters are taking is so awesome then ALL public schools should be taught this way,

Makes sense to me but what do I know?

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Reverie @ 1:51 pm – There is something serious with your thinking, reading and comprehension. You need help!

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On a side Note. Gov Deal has just recently denied the expansion of the State’s Medicaid Plan as authorized by President OBAMA. This is a VERY SAD DAY for the many hundreds of Thousands of CHILDREN in Georgia. This denial of State and Federal assistance designed to assist the most neediest and defenseless citizens
the SENIORS and Children will have suffer needlessly, as a result of such an unwise decision. I urge ALL of you who have a care concern any or both of these to Groups to LET your Voices be heard with the Governor. Strange how he has found $430 million dollars of funds for Charter schools but cannot provide help in the area where there is truly a need for the children of Georgia. This is not the TRUE AMERICAN
way for any of our citizens to be treated.

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@Solutions: “If I read the premise of this blog and many of you LeftWing people, poverty is an excuse for stupidity, meaning poverty causes stupidity. As usual, you LeftWingers have it backwards, stupidity causes poverty.”

So let me get this correct. All those incredibly stupid Right Wing Republicans down in Tamp are poor? I had no idea.

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…2. I beg to differ that the district boards are not making off with tax payer money. They are PAID for their service. Go look on open.georgia.gov at how much money is paid out to school board members across this state – it’s millions. If they serve in a district not performing to minimal state standards (which is a scary lot of them), then they are not doing their job…and neither is the district office staff entrusted with the job of management and oversight. They are PAID to ensure students perform. Period…..

This is a disingenuous argument. You cannot compare a private company taking millions of dollars from tax payers to buy real-estate with no guarantees verse a school board member getting a small stiffen for their time. Please you can do better than this……………. If a board member took millions of dollars from tax payers to buy real-estate than you could compare it. The Cherokee Charter school any way you slice got the same deal that has burned tax payers in the past. Any way you spin it, this is crony capitalism.

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@Bernie,

The people of Georgia have spoken very loudly with their votes over the past few years. They are in full support of the idiotic republican ideals – give more to the top 1% most wealthy, cut off the social “safety net”, allow guns to anyone everywhere, make the middle class pay more in taxes, force women’s rights to return to pre-1950s, give more in corporate tax breaks, and stop funding education.

This is the GA republican platform and this is what the voters of Georgia want.

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@ High School Teacher – Just for the record….this amendment is a bi-partisan effort.

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@CharterStarter, Too -

There is no such thing as “bi-partisan” in the State of GA. If a politican is going to be elected, they must adhere to the platform that I mentioned – no matter what ‘party’ label they claim.

You know this is true. Georgia is pitifully backwards.

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@CharterStarter, Too -

Who says that Georgia kids in public schools aren’t learning? I teach in a public high school. Seniors last year sitting in my classroom are now attending Cornell, MIT, GA Tech, Harvard, and UVA. Yes, this is really a PUBLIC high school in Georgia.

As a classroom teacher, I am sick of YOU (the general public) screaming that I don’t do my job. I most certainly am doing my job! My AP students passed the AP exam with a 92% pass rate, thank you very much!

Now, how my school system spends money is another story. I really do see a lot of waste. I wish more of the money actually found its way into the classroom to help the students directly. However, I have no control over that!

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@CharterStarter, Too –

If you want to look into the future of GA education according to how things are going, you only need to look south to Florida.

Florida has the Charter schools. Florida has the vouchers. Florida education has been on the fast-track of declining ever since these things were implemented. In Florida, the teacher union (the REAL one and not the so-called “professional organizations” we have here in Georgia) has been neutered by the republican governors.

So then, Georgia is really simply following in Florida’s footsteps. It is sad – very sad!

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Education in Georgia was considered substandard long before the voters shifted their allegiances from the Democrats to the Republicans. The issues of Charter Schools and vouchers, non acceptable test scores,, and an overall dissatisfaction with school performance has existed for many decades, maybe centuries. I don’t think either side has the plan that will solve the problems. I do think that public education is handed a very difficult task in that the schools are expected to go beyond the traditional subjects and now have to teach things such as ethics, morals, common courtesy. Those have always been the responsibility of the child’s parents. The schools were to educate in scholastic subjects and reinforce the training the kids received at home. I have observed a great deal more parental participation in both private and charter or magnet schools.

In Cobb County there is a public high school called Maceachern (I think I spelled it right). That school has arguably the finest facilities of any High School I have ever seen. Maceachern is benefited by a wonderful endowment and for years they have had the best things money could buy. For many years the average grades have been declining for most of their students. A neighbor teaches math at that school so I asked her opinion on why this apparently well funded and academically blessed school, with first rate and experienced teachers could produce declining results. She said “Parents. We cannot get the parents involved. The parents expect us to provide not just their essential education but their motivation to learn and their consequences for failure. We are powerless to fulfill those expectations”. Powerful and convicting. As a parent I choose to take an active hand in seeing to it my kids are prepared to succeed. Very few kids can succeed on their own. I don’t think this is a left vs right issue. I do think this is a societal issue.

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There really is not a real two party system in Georgia.

And there hasn’t been for 150 years. And when it switched from one party dominating to the other party dominating, not a thing changed. It’s the same as it’s always been; party labels have nothing to do with it.

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And when it switched from one party dominating to the other party dominating, not a thing changed. It’s the same as it’s always been; party labels have nothing to do with it.

I have to disagree some Hillybilly D. Zel was all about education and relief on the poorest of us. He’s the one who pushed the lowered sales tax rate on food which today’s Republicans keep trying to raise. He is also the one who mandated and funded a 4 year college no more than 45 minutes away from anywhere in Georgia which today’s Republicans have done away with. He instituted Headstart and Pre-K programs, today’s Republicans keep gutting them.

While much between the two parties remains the same as far as graft and fraud, some very core values have changed in education and relief for the worst off of us.

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Fred

That’s a valid point but I think it’s more of a shift in the mindset of a lot of people than of a party label change. In the last 20 years or so, a whole lot more people seem to be a bit more of the “what’s in it for me?” mindset, than they use to be, or at least that’s my perception. Nathan Deal was a D before he was an R, and he shifted to keep getting himself elected and so did all the others. They’d join the Free Silver Party, if they thought that’s what they needed to do to get elected.

Of course, as you know, I have the George Washington view of political parties, anyway. I think we’d be better off if we’d have listened to him and never started them.

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CharterStarter, Too
Yep – in one year they turned some students around academically.
Are you implying that poor black students can’t learn math?”
I merely noted the 20 point increase. If an APS school had posted those results, we would be told that the probability of that occurring was one in a million (or something like that).

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Maureen,

I am not a resident of school systems in the Atlanta Area and as such “have no dog in most of the fights on your blog”, but if you will forgive an observation from a “senior citizen”, it seems that most of your respondents are more interested in insulting each other than in considering the very real problem of inadequate (on average) educational results for the children who will strive, however successfully or not, to contribute to our country’s well being. I wonder if you could not devote some time to trying to calm some of the more virulant attitudes of your readers, and focus on real issues.

As a for instance, what is the proper objective of the public education system of Georgia? Is it basic skills for all in the three R’s?, or preparation to compete in a global environment for decent jobs? or what? In observing the comments on your blog, it seems to me that many of the disputes are between individuals who have very different ideas as to the purpose of public education.

Personally, I attended an extremely small and poor school system in rural Georgia – graduating in 1961 to date myself. Our high school had less that the legally required 100 students, had a Principal, a Coach, and 4 teachers to cover all subjects required. Nevertheless, when I attended my 50th class reunion last year, most of us still kicking had professional degrees and were economically “middle class or above”. The issue here is that it is not poverty that tells the tale, but the drive and support to better oneself that is often the difference in achieving a better life for oneself.

The issue about Private versus Charter versus Public Schools is silly. Each parent should of course do whatever they can to assure their child or children of the best possible chance for securing the best possible education and preparation for a bright future. Anyone who does less should really consider their objectives. My son attended public schools through 8 grades and then superb private schools through graduation. It was an effective, though expensive, choice for us. If others have different opinions, so be it. However, I did not notice any reduction in State or Local Sales, Income or Property Taxes due – so we continued to provide funds for public education regardless of its mediocre quality in the ensuing 20 years as well as when he was attending public school.

For the dedicated Public School Teachers and Administrators who are doing their best, I salute you and wish you all the best – but, results matter and you must at some point come to grips with the fact that “the system” is not achieving the results that you or others wish.

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“Are you implying that poor (African-American) students can’t learn math?”

Of course they can – if they come to school (and don’t turn their nose up at education).

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“Zel was all about education and relief on the poorest of us.”

Yeah, but he had a “late life conversion”.

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“Discipline is not handled in districts consistently or effectively. Teachers rarely get support in their classrooms with chronic disrupters. Those wanting to learn are constantly disrupted. ”

AMEN!

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I would give up a week’s pay (and with a PhD and max experience, it is good money) if I could pick one of you to come teach my classes and do the other work expected without losing your cool. Every time I have had a parent come in and observe (which, admittedly, has not been often with the troublemakers’ parents) the parent has left with a far different attitude. And that has been just sitting, with all the planning, instruction, evaluation, counseling, behavior management, and other duties taken care of for them.

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CharterStarter, Too
“@ Atlanta Mom – Only if they had the erasures to match.”
Maybe it’s been a long day for you, but doesn’t a 20 pt increase in one year raise any flags in your mind? I stumbled on that information when I was looking for demographics for Pataula and Baker County, and was surprised.

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@ jAtlanta Mom – No. Otherwise they would have been flagged with the other schools for erasures and weren’t. They also implemented a new instructional program in their first year, trained teachers on the new program, and acclimated staff and students. So settling in by year 2 and raising achievement in an already low subject for the kids in the area isn’t a surprise to me, no.

I know you’re looking for something here, but you COULD just say yes, they seem to be doing a fine job rather than trying so hard to find something to hammer them on that is reaching, at best.

You should take a drive down there Atlanta Mom, and observe the classrooms for yourself. You’d be pleasantly surprised at the warm environment, the excitement of the teachers, and the curiosity of the kids.

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@ John – explain to me how you justify the Baker County school district…from a financial standpoint, that is.

Help me understand how a charter school can function on half of what a traditional school is earning and achieve better results…and moreover, how this is not a better return on investment for taxpayers.

Please also explain to me how traditional districts will be financially impacted by this amendment if the state (797) clearly says they cannot be.

I will await your wisdom.

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Hillbilly D

August 28th, 2012
4:25 pm

Fred

That’s a valid point but I think it’s more of a shift in the mindset of a lot of people than of a party label change. In the last 20 years or so, a whole lot more people seem to be a bit more of the “what’s in it for me?” mindset, than they use to be, or at least that’s my perception. Nathan Deal was a D before he was an R, and he shifted to keep getting himself elected and so did all the others. They’d join the Free Silver Party, if they thought that’s what they needed to do to get elected.

Of course, as you know, I have the George Washington view of political parties, anyway. I think we’d be better off if we’d have listened to him and never started them.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

LOl HillbillyD. As usual you make great points and are correct. What was I thinking doubting you? Shame you won’t come back to Jay’s. We all appreciated your voice of reason there.

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@ John – But many DO provide these services. They only get funds for what the earn. I don’t understand your point there.

Sorry – still don’t get your point…this study by CATO was taken on a real macro – nationwide. In GEORGIA, 50% of our kids are FRL, so the likelihood of us fitting their stats is impossible as far as I can tell. As some other bright soul above mentioned, the heavier proportion of these figures likely come from states with the Catholic schools. We don’t have as many of those here.

I’m not saying private school students don’t leave and come to charters…I just question the huge amount purported by CATO, at least in Georgia.

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Charter,

Cato is a conservative libertarian source, who should be on your side.

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@ John – no, I said SOME offer transportation – not all. And when we say transportation, you are strictly meaning to and from school. All of the charters I know provide transportation on field trips, even if they don’t provide transportation to and from school. Some of our charters don’t have bus service, but they have other methods, i.e., maybe Marta vouchers, etc.

Cherokee does have Special ed. students it serves who enrolled. Charters cannot pick and choose, so whoever comes to the door may enroll or go through a public lottery. They can’t, by law, control their numbers. Their initial (pre-lottery) registration forms may not have any potentially discriminatory questions. They don’t provide SPED info. until after they have a seat.

@ John Konop – I understand that (re: Cato); however, I still question those numbers in Georgia. I may be wrong, but it just doesn’t make sense to me given what I know about our charters’ enrollment trends.

@ Cellophane – every charter has to provide ELL (by federal law) for enrolled and eligible ELL students. They only earn funding for ELL students if they are enrolled and provide services on the FTE count days (just like any other public school).

As for nursing services, that is a categorical grant, and they DO have to provide nursing services to meet the needs of IEPs, etc. They may not have a staff person, but they may have to contract out for nursing services if needed. That is an itty bitty amount of money anyway – around $5000, so they could not fund a nurse on state funds anyway. And, as a matter of fact, many traditional schools do not have a school nurse, as this is generally an underfunded categorical grant. Sometimes the districts contact this out, and sometimes they have floating nurses. This is not uncommon. Thank you for the specific questions.

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@ John – Sigh. Let me say this once again. They earn money for the students they serve. They don’t get random special ed money coming their way. If they don’t serve the kids, they don’t earn the funds.

But let me address your comment, “not using for the kids.” Charters generally have flexibility with their budgets and can use the funds to meet the needs of their programs as defined in the charter. The catch is accountability. So in the long run, if they choose NOT to use the money for children and to provide strong academic programs, they could CLOSE.

Do you realize that the local school districts were recently given this same flexibility with budgets and they do not have to use the funds, per se, on what the money was “earned” for? I might add that there is no such accountability for the districts.

You should look once again at Baker County and tell me why only 57% of their budget is making it to the classrooms. As an educator, that incenses me. As a taxpayer, I am appalled. Nothing in their general administration budget (of nearly 17%) can be construed as being used for kids. If they had the outcomes (even moderately decent) to show, perhaps it would not be so egregious…but they don’t. And there are others in this state just like them.

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@ Konop –

I am not sure you quite understand funding streams. And..you are mixing up inputs versus outputs.

As for inputs….charters are already at a disadvantage and are earning .74 on the dollar for startups and .62 on the dollar for state charters, AND they get NO funding for facilities and do not have access to federal grants and SPLOST unless the district feels so inclined to share (which very rarely happens). Districts are already way a head here.

As for outputs…one would think that districts would be able to reduce costs with their economy of scale. Districts do not tap their operational budgets for facilities. Charters have to pay for their buildings out of their operational budget (QBE), which generally accounts for about 15%. They also have to pay the 30% more for the SPED students they serve like any district, and if they provide transportation, they have those fees, too (including fuel costs). If you really want to pit costs of SPED students and transportation (SPED being 6% of overall students in the state) and transportation expenditures in the state (which is 4.8%) with what charters have to spend on buildings, let’s do it. Districts will come out on top every time with more funding – REGARDLESS of whether charters provide transportation and have the exact same number of SPED students.

The charter sector welcomes oversight over their spending and fiscal controls. We report it every single year. I’d pit our charters against the out of control spending of many districts and lack of fiduciary responsibility of district boards any day. I’ve already PROVEN to you with Baker County that our districts are rampant with waste – and I will gladly show you a slew more just like them. It doesn’t matter what the funding is if they aren’t spending what they have wisely.

It is very typical for opponents of this Amendment to try to do the David Blaine magic show with the public by mixing numbers, inputs and outputs, and throwing distractors, innuendo, and insults out. You throw whatever you can at the wall and hope it sticks. There is one thing you are right about, and that is that the numbers are the numbers are the numbers. We don’t have to twist numbers and play the same word games you all are playing – because the facts are in our favor.

What you can be assured of, Mr. Konop, is that the charter sector will fight this fight with integrity. We will be transparent and forthcoming for those with questions. We will publish factual information that can be verified through public data sources. This will eventually bring attention to the real problems we have in public education. And the problem is not within the classrooms. It’s with district priorities and lack of accountability.

So bring it on, sir. This lady who “doesn’t understand financing and budgets” is ready.

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@ John -

Cherokee Charter School received a proportionate share of stimulus dollars – NOT disproportionate to what the districts earned. What’s your game here? Anyone can go out and figure the math of how it was calculated.

Secondly, tell me if district property is secured against poor negotiations with builders and bond brokers. Are you kidding me? Check out the difference in bond rates negotiated by each district for the facilities they are building and see how much these banks and builders pocket from ignorant negations that do not ensure a good investment by districts. I can show you plenty of these examples. We lose MILLIONS of dollars in tax money because no one monitors what districts are spending on things like this (or even on classified personnel) and how out of line the expenses are with industry standards. Really sir, you need to clean up your own house.

Why do you only speak of Cherokee? Do you only know about 1 school? You picked your example, and I have shown mine, Baker. We have both chosen examples to share. How about you pick another and I will, too…

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*** A CALM LOGICAL LOOK AT THE MONEY***
I would like us to take a calm, logical look at the money.
Let’s start with the GA parents who choose to send their child to private school:
Q. Do those parents pay local property taxes that go to the local public schools?
A. Yes.
Q. Do those parents woh pay local property taxes and send their kid to private school get any use of the public school they are paying for?
A. No.
Q. Now, when those parents who pay for local property taxes and chose to send their children to a private school instead take their kid out of a private school and put them into a charter school, are they still paying local property taxes?
A. Yes.
Q. So if the former private school parents now send their children to charter schools, are they getting to use the tax dollars they continue to pay into?
A. Yes.
Q. Are their children costing the State anymore than any other kid in public schools?
A. No.
A. Are their children costing the State any less than other children attending public schools?
A. Yes. Because for those years the children were in prvate school, the child did not use any of the tax money but their parents were stilling paying into the public schools that others used.
Q. So does it benefit the public school system when parents choose to send their parents to private schools?
A. Yes, because they get the tax money without having to educate the child.
Q. Do children who attend or did private schools pay more for their public school education?
A. Yes, because their parents have an average or above average income and they pay more in local property taxes.
Q. Do poor kids benefit from kids who attend private schools, even if those kids later attend charter schools?
A. Yes, because the poor children come from poor parents who don’t pay property taxes or pay very little property taxes. Yet, those children attend the schools that the private school crowd pay for. The get more than they pay for.
Q. Do children who attend private schools or who used to attend private schools and now attend a charter school — do they cost more to educate than any other child?
A. No.
Q. Do they cost any less?
A. Yes, because they paid in tax dollars they didn’t use.

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“constitute”

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@ John – I don’t need to spin it. We can agree to disagree on that point. I would say, however, that districts lease and rent space too, and in those cases, private entities benefit. as for charters, unfortunately, we have a lot of public school education facilities out there that are being unutilized or underutilized (for professional development, offices, storage, bus parking and the like) that aren’t being shared with charters (despite the law). This forces the charters to look for ways to find a building, and this becomes a financial problem. New entities have a hard time getting lenders to loan funds, just like any small business. Of course there are CDFIs available, but even that costs money up front, and without a revenue stream, it gets tough. Management companies have a track record, so sometimes charters working with the EMOs will lean on them for assistance with buildings. This could, of course, be prevented if unused buildings were consistently made available to charters and/or if lenders would loan to charters. I really do understand your concern, although, for reasons I expressed earlier, I am not sure the risk that high.

Although we have a few schools with EMOs in their buildings, we do have schools operating with management organizations that don’t own the land or property. We have an even larger proportion of charters who don’t work with management companies at all where this is a non-issue (although they usually have to lease space from someone).

You seemed to jump from the for-profit issue over to SPED, transportation, etc., so perhaps I just don’t understand your main issues (other than the Cherokee facility). I really am open to discussion on your concerns. I prefer not to downward spiral into insults if possible though. It’s really too important of an issue for our state to let heated heads get in the way of rational discourse.

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Charter Starter, Too and John Konop: You both bring up good points and I have enjoyed reading your posts.

The issue speaks to the heart of the matter which is that every child should be able to get what they need to succeed in the public school system. Unfortunately, the reality is that you will always have parents, taxpayers and those in power (or hoping to be) examining and questioning whether that is happening and finding instances where it is not. Not every Charter is a Pataula Academy (academically successful when looking at test scores) and not every local Public school is a Baker County.

I cannot currently support an alternate authorizing entity for Charter schools in Georgia. Show me actual data that might change my mind. How much do current state approved Charters charge for bus service and food services? Will they stop charging for this now that the state is giving them funding? What is the actual amount spent per charter student when you add in grants received? Can you give a comparison by state Charter school of the enrollment number approved by the state in the charter and actual enrollment on the first day of school? If the number is different, why? How many state Charter schools have preKs associated with them? How much tuition do they charge? Does attendance at the prek guarantee a feed into the Kindergarten, bypassing the lottery?

Is there a document somewhere showing the revenue and assets of each state Charter? For the schools that are already performing academically and have large asset accrual, why should they earn an increase in funding from the state?

There is also a discipline issue that bothers me, but it is not exclusive to Charters. I am very much opposed to corporal punishment in our schools and am mortified that Georgia has not enacted legislation to change this. Many of our county school districts have policies against corporal punishment. Should a Charter be allowed to exercise corporal punishment in a school district that has a policy against it? Should a Charter be allowed to have a policy allowing corporal punishment if it is not outlined in their State Charter Petition? Even in the presence of “equal opportunity enrollment” if you make it in the lottery, is corporal punishment one way the Charter schools can exercise some control over student demographics?

The problem is that no Charter is really a Public school (free education for all) if it is not open to anyone who wishes to enroll. A yes to this referendum will create two separate and unequal school systems. And are we really naive enough to think that an appointed commission will be exempt from the same type of politics that negatively impact our school boards?

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“Despite their intention to target poor and under-served students” Even if charters pull from private schools perhaps they are pulling families who live in a school zone where they would be under-served so instead of sacrificing their child they and other family members made sacrifices to send their child to private schools. Sending their child to a charter school was a lifting of a financial burden. I have seen grandparents make financial sacrifices for their grandchildren who were trapped in a failing system and their parents could not offer an alternative. Often children in low income areas with under-performing schools drift in and out of private schools from year to year.

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Dr. Monica Henson: Thank you for your response. I wish Provost Academy well this year as I believe your school model is needed in our state and it is truly a “State Special Charter” school. I have researched charter petitions in the past using the DOE link, however I wish the link also provided budget info, annual audit info and qbe reporting by school as well. Not making this information easily accessible is what leads to the perception of lack of transparency.

I believe you skirted the corporal punishment issue. Or maybe you didn’t realize my point. A policy of corporal punishment in a school will easily dissuade a parent/student in a demographic that is fearful of authority from applying. Adding that policy to the already required volunteer hours and having to provide transportation, or pay a fee for it, would definitely impact enrollment. It will be interesting to see if the state providing transportation funds will have any impact on enrollment from students in lower SES groups. Also, the corporal punishment question could impact a school’s financial status. As the state is absolved from liability, a lawsuit from an abuse accusation could be devastating to a school.

Your assertions that the Charter Commission and these school’s governing boards will be free from cronyism is optimistic. There are already schools in smaller rural counties with family and political connections forming Charters, are these only “jobs programs” if their schools fail?

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The Charter School amendment is toast. No return to segregation…the whites vs blacks, the smart vs stupid, rich vs poor.

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@3SchoolKids – I really appreciate all of your commentary and questions. Let me try to address all of the ones you posed to me:

CHARGING FOR TRANSPORTATION AND FOOD SERVICE. To my knowledge, we do not have any charters who charge for transportation. Like the traditional school districts who have lunch costs for parents (some are free, some reduced related to eligibility), charters may charge for lunch. If they are part of the federal free and reduced lunch program, they receive a subsidy.

ENROLLMENT vs. ACTUAL. Charters submit their charters sometimes a year in advance and therefore, could not have completed enrollment. They make projections based on various types of data (area demographics, interest expressed by parents, etc.) Generally they do enrollment in the early Spring after approval of their charters and adjust their numbers provided to the state accordingly. Most then have to do a “butts in seat” count for their local school districts, or for state charters, they come out and do a head count the first day of school. And of course, their numbers, like traditional schools, are adjusted after the October FTE count.

PRE-K. We have a number of charters who have preschools. Some are Georgia pre-K programs and some are independent preschools that charge. In answer to your question, no, those with pre-K programs that charge may not provide priority enrollment for those babies moving up to Kindergarten. That, by the way, was an excellent question.

REVENUE/ASSETS. I wish the state would publish the audits, too. You can request them though, from the Charter Schools Division as an open records request. You would find their revenue, assets and expenses in the audits. As far as large assets…we really don’t have any of these in the charter sector. Schools stay afloat. They may have a very, very, very modest balance at the end of the year (saved for emergencies), but most scrape by. You asked about QBE funding. The allotment sheets actually are posted on the state website. If you go to the bottom of the home page and click on Financial Reports, you can select either charter site allotments or system allotments. Please note that locally approved charter allotment sheets will be under the charter sites and state charters, as LEAs can be found under the system allotments (even though they aren’t systems.)

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. You ask a question I have never considered. Technically speaking, BOTH charters AND districts could exercise corporal punishment. The difference would be that with a traditional school, parents would not have a choice about this policy, but with charters, if the charter had a policy allowing it, parents could choose not to attend. I have never, ever heard of a charter allowing corporal punishment.

I am not sure how having a charter authorizing agency would create a separate school systems as you say. We currently have 180 VERY different school districts – this number has changed through the course of our state’s history with combining school districts and separating them. What is the difference? I will agree, somewhat, with unequal though, as our state charter students will only earn .62 on the dollar compared to traditional school students.

I hope I answered your questions thoroughly.

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