New study: Urban charter schools draw nearly a third of their students from private schools
A new study released today by the Cato Institute Center for Educational Freedom examines a question that hasn’t garnered any attention in the charter school debate here in Georgia: Where do public charter schools get their students, from traditional public schools or private schools?
I hope to talk today to the economist who authored the Cato study, Richard Buddin with the RAND Corporation, but here is the essence of his surprising findings: Despite their intention to target poor and under-served students, charters schools draw nearly a third of their elementary school enrollments from students who would have attended private, not public schools. This exodus from private schools to public charter schools costs taxpayers $1.8 billion a year, according to the study.
The study found:
Charters serving primary students in highly urban districts take almost one third of their students from private schools, on average. Urban charters draw nearly one quarter of their middle school students and over 15 percent of their high school students from the private sector. Even in non-urban districts, charters pull between 7 and 11 percent of all their students from private schools.
“On average, charter schools may marginally improve the public education system, but in the process they are wreaking havoc on private education. Charter schools take a significant portion of their students from private schools, causing a drop in private enrollment, driving some schools entirely out of business, and thereby raising public costs while potentially diminishing competition and diversity in our education system overall. I call this mix of intended and unintended consequences the ‘Charter School Paradox,’” said Cato policy analyst and project supervisor Adam B. Schaeffer in an email.
In a companion analysis released with the study, Schaeffer explores how Buddin’s findings influence what Cato considers the critical element to improving education: Limiting government so the free market can work. The libertarian Cato Institute advocates for an independent system of schools competing for students.
Schaeffer writes:
1) What is the impact on overall competition and achievement if charter schools are driving private schools out of business?
• Although charter schools increase competition within the government school system, it seems likely that they decrease competition from the private sector in some areas. The private market is in turn vital for innovation and as competition for the government sector. More research needs to be conducted to determine whether or not there is a net increase in competition and achievement when considering these substantial, if unintended, consequences of charter schools for the private education market.
2) What is the true cost of expanding public charter schools when the formerly private school students are properly counted as a new expenditure?
• Based on Buddin’s numbers, the direct public cost of charter students who migrated from private schools is about $1.8 billion a year. Since the most recent data available for the analysis are from 2008, that figure is likely much higher today.
• Moreover, state governments typically spend more per charter school student than they do for students in regular schools, adding to the total cost at the state level. Local governments, however, usually spend far less or nothing at all on charter school students. The cost, in other words, is borne by state governments and the total costs or savings across both levels requires a detailed state-by-state analysis.
3) Is there any way to mitigate these negative, unintended consequences of charter school reform?
• Thankfully, yes; by enacting good private school choice reform, such as education tax credit programs. This will prevent the erosion of private educational options while driving greater competition across the board.
4) Is there any way to avoid the Charter School Paradox without private choice reform?
• Unfortunately, that seems unlikely. If the heavy burden of government school taxes continues to weigh down families struggling to pay out of pocket for private education, then charter schools will continue to cannibalize the private sector, increase public costs, and decrease options and competition. Communities must open up all educational options to families if there is to be real and sustainable improvement in education overall.
Anecdote and conjecture about the impact of charter schools now has rigorous empirical support; public charter schools are seriously damaging the private education market, adding to the taxpayer burden, and undermining private options for families and healthy competition in the education sector.
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
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170 comments Add your comment
John Konop
August 28th, 2012
3:27 pm
…2. I beg to differ that the district boards are not making off with tax payer money. They are PAID for their service. Go look on open.georgia.gov at how much money is paid out to school board members across this state – it’s millions. If they serve in a district not performing to minimal state standards (which is a scary lot of them), then they are not doing their job…and neither is the district office staff entrusted with the job of management and oversight. They are PAID to ensure students perform. Period…..
This is a disingenuous argument. You cannot compare a private company taking millions of dollars from tax payers to buy real-estate with no guarantees verse a school board member getting a small stiffen for their time. Please you can do better than this……………. If a board member took millions of dollars from tax payers to buy real-estate than you could compare it. The Cherokee Charter school any way you slice got the same deal that has burned tax payers in the past. Any way you spin it, this is crony capitalism.
Rockstar
August 28th, 2012
3:33 pm
Choice seems to be the word used most often when describing the latest education innovation-charter schools. As a parent, I truly understand anyone making a choice to provide the best educational opportunities possible for their children. If a charter school is that opportunity, then that’s where the child should go. If it’s a private school, then that’s where the child should go. If it’s a traditional public school, then that’s where the child should go. All K-12 school types have value in a given community, and should be supported with the appropriate dollars allotted to them.
Where I do have issue is the pending amendment that gives the state an additional agency designed to approve charter schools that are denied by local school boards. Elections have consequences. Imagine the outcry there would be in this state if the U.S. Department of Education or Congress made this decision rather than Georgia’s legislature. Before anyone says that is not the role of the federal government as outlined in the U.S Constitution, I would argue that creating a school in a local community is also not the role of the state as defined in the State Constitution. Local school boards can be held accountable by local voters, but this commission cannot. Any time you have an agency that operates with the authority only given to a few or in some cases just one in the Governor (Board of Regents, Transportation, etc.), accountability is limited to satisfying those few. It has been documented that another Governor-appointed commission, The State Board of Education, already has the authority to override local school boards in approving charter schools. If they don’t have the authority to make the financial allotments to fund charter schools at the state level, why does this legislation not simply give them the ability to do so rather than create an additional bureaucracy?
Finally, the flexibility charter schools enjoy would be beneficial for all schools. I say waive all the restrictive rules that many of the same legislators that promote the creation of the Charter Commission voted into policy and give the authority to school districts. If school boards refuse to adhere to the will of their voters and provide quality, innovative educational opportunities for all students, then they should not be reelected. If district and school leadership refuses to take advantage of the flexibility given to them by law, then they should be fired. As I said earlier, elections have consequences, or at least they should.
HS Public Teacher
August 28th, 2012
3:36 pm
@Bernie,
The people of Georgia have spoken very loudly with their votes over the past few years. They are in full support of the idiotic republican ideals – give more to the top 1% most wealthy, cut off the social “safety net”, allow guns to anyone everywhere, make the middle class pay more in taxes, force women’s rights to return to pre-1950s, give more in corporate tax breaks, and stop funding education.
This is the GA republican platform and this is what the voters of Georgia want.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
3:37 pm
@ Teacher & Mom –
Why don’t we compare apples to apples then. You are worried about the minority students in Baker County…and those who are economically disadvantaged. Let’s look at those subgroups for just one grade level to start and do that comparison so you can see that Pataula IS performing better with ALL of its students. I took this data from the DOE Report Card, so you can go and verify my numbers.
Pataula Baker
Black students meet/exceed % in reading 100% 67%
Black students meet/exceed % in math 91% 33%
Economically disadvantaged meet/exceed % in reading 100% 75%
Economically disadvantaged meet/exceed % in math 74% 33%
I am unsure why you are worried about Early County…I haven’t published information about that district, but I’m game to answer what I can for you. I will have to get back with you on some because the DOE website isn’t letting me pull up school level data yet.
“What is the average third grade class size in the charter school and Early County?” According to the DOE website, Early county in 2010-11 had 2154 kids and 189.51 educators for a ratio of 11.3:1. I can’t see Pataula’s on the DOE site, but their Title I plan says they have 25 educators for 290 students for a 11.6:1 ratio. So they are comparable.
What is the ratio of special education:student in both schools? I will have to get back to you on this one.
How is the curriculum and instruction at Pataula different from Early Co? Pataula offers Expeditionary Learning as its primary model. Teachers are heavily involved in uniform professional development to ensure consistent delivery of the curriculum. Most importantly, teachers have a huge voice in decision making for instruction. I can’t speak to Early County’s model, but to my knowledge, they do not use EL systemwide.
Does Pataula provide transportation? Yes, it does.
How many segments of PE, music, and art do students at Pataula recieve vs. Early County? NOt sure on this one – you will have to check with the schools on that.
How many computers per student at both schools? Don’t know.
What about the media centers? Pataula has a nice library. During one of my visits they were holding a book fair, too. Not sure about Early County.
What about after school programs? Pataula does.
What is the ratio of building level administration per student? Pataula has one principal and and office manager. Not sure about Early County – they show 20.33 administrators for the districts, but I don’t know how many of those are school level.
Does Pataula provide lunch (some Charters do not)? Yes, they do.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
3:39 pm
@ High School Teacher – Just for the record….this amendment is a bi-partisan effort.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
3:41 pm
@ Rockstar – elections SHOULD have consequences, but for reasons I’ve listed already, they rarely do. There HAS to be some better checks and balances to ensure our kids are learning and the funds are being spend prudently.
HS Public Teacher
August 28th, 2012
3:46 pm
@CharterStarter, Too -
There is no such thing as “bi-partisan” in the State of GA. If a politican is going to be elected, they must adhere to the platform that I mentioned – no matter what ‘party’ label they claim.
You know this is true. Georgia is pitifully backwards.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
3:48 pm
@ John Konop:
“This is a disingenuous argument. You cannot compare a private company taking millions of dollars from tax payers to buy real-estate with no guarantees verse a school board member getting a small stiffen for their time. Please you can do better than this……………. If a board member took millions of dollars from tax payers to buy real-estate than you could compare it. The Cherokee Charter school any way you slice got the same deal that has burned tax payers in the past. Any way you spin it, this is crony capitalism.”
It most certainly is NOT a disingenuous statement. First of all – if boards are paid to SERVE, then they need to embrace their fiduciary duties and not allow the rampant waste and poor outcomes we have in some of our districts. If they do not do their job, then they ARE making off with our money. Similarly, district office personnel (i.e., Superintendents, and the like) are PAID to manage the academic and operational affairs of the district. If the district is failing either academically or fiscally, these individuals are essentially working without accountability for their paychecks. And then, of course, we always have districts who have folks stealing millions (most recently, DeKalb County) to consider…
Charter boards who do the oversight of the schools (and when applicable, the management companies) GIVE their time for their service on the board. Management companies are paid to do exactly what a central office may do. If they do not perform they can be fired. There IS accountability for outcomes with management companies. Given the audits that have to be conducted annually and provide to districts and/or the state, the chance for them making off like bandits is pretty slim.
HS Public Teacher
August 28th, 2012
3:51 pm
@CharterStarter, Too -
Who says that Georgia kids in public schools aren’t learning? I teach in a public high school. Seniors last year sitting in my classroom are now attending Cornell, MIT, GA Tech, Harvard, and UVA. Yes, this is really a PUBLIC high school in Georgia.
As a classroom teacher, I am sick of YOU (the general public) screaming that I don’t do my job. I most certainly am doing my job! My AP students passed the AP exam with a 92% pass rate, thank you very much!
Now, how my school system spends money is another story. I really do see a lot of waste. I wish more of the money actually found its way into the classroom to help the students directly. However, I have no control over that!
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
3:51 pm
@ HS Teacher – please go and look at the names on HR1162 those who voted in favor of it. There is solid representation from both sides. Moreover, go and look at the most recent straw ballot put out in the Democratic Primaries…44% of the Democrats said they WANTED the state to have the ability to “overturn” (their choice of words) district boards.
It’s bipartisan. Although strongly supported by Republicans, Democrats are behind it too. People KNOW we need something to happen in education. Now.
HS Public Teacher
August 28th, 2012
3:55 pm
@CharterStarter, Too –
If you want to look into the future of GA education according to how things are going, you only need to look south to Florida.
Florida has the Charter schools. Florida has the vouchers. Florida education has been on the fast-track of declining ever since these things were implemented. In Florida, the teacher union (the REAL one and not the so-called “professional organizations” we have here in Georgia) has been neutered by the republican governors.
So then, Georgia is really simply following in Florida’s footsteps. It is sad – very sad!
HS Public Teacher
August 28th, 2012
3:57 pm
@CharterStarter, Too –
Wow. Are you that dense? Really?
There really is not a real two party system in Georgia. How much more clearly can I state it? You say “bi-partisan” but when both parties state the same thing, is it really two parties?
All politicans in Georgia have adopted what I call the ‘republican platform’ in order to get elected. This is what the voters want. It doesn’t matter the party label.
Get it?
Reverie
August 28th, 2012
3:59 pm
Education in Georgia was considered substandard long before the voters shifted their allegiances from the Democrats to the Republicans. The issues of Charter Schools and vouchers, non acceptable test scores,, and an overall dissatisfaction with school performance has existed for many decades, maybe centuries. I don’t think either side has the plan that will solve the problems. I do think that public education is handed a very difficult task in that the schools are expected to go beyond the traditional subjects and now have to teach things such as ethics, morals, common courtesy. Those have always been the responsibility of the child’s parents. The schools were to educate in scholastic subjects and reinforce the training the kids received at home. I have observed a great deal more parental participation in both private and charter or magnet schools.
In Cobb County there is a public high school called Maceachern (I think I spelled it right). That school has arguably the finest facilities of any High School I have ever seen. Maceachern is benefited by a wonderful endowment and for years they have had the best things money could buy. For many years the average grades have been declining for most of their students. A neighbor teaches math at that school so I asked her opinion on why this apparently well funded and academically blessed school, with first rate and experienced teachers could produce declining results. She said “Parents. We cannot get the parents involved. The parents expect us to provide not just their essential education but their motivation to learn and their consequences for failure. We are powerless to fulfill those expectations”. Powerful and convicting. As a parent I choose to take an active hand in seeing to it my kids are prepared to succeed. Very few kids can succeed on their own. I don’t think this is a left vs right issue. I do think this is a societal issue.
HS Public Teacher
August 28th, 2012
4:02 pm
@Rerverie -
I agree with you.
But the problem is that these “charter schools” don’t address the problem you mention. They, and also the “vouchers” are nothing but a way for the most wealthy to use public tax money to send their kids to exclusive schools.
That is the problem and the rub for people in the know!
Hillbilly D
August 28th, 2012
4:06 pm
There really is not a real two party system in Georgia.
And there hasn’t been for 150 years. And when it switched from one party dominating to the other party dominating, not a thing changed. It’s the same as it’s always been; party labels have nothing to do with it.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
4:09 pm
@ HS Public Teacher – Let me tell you something that I believe with all of my heart…and if you go back to every single post where I talk about teachers in our state, it has never, ever been derogatory. My BEEF with the system, which I am sure is your beef, too, is:
1. Priorities are not on kids – funds don’t make it to the classroom to provide adequate instructional resources or to support educators.
2. Discipline is not handled in districts consistently or effectively. Teachers rarely get support in their classrooms with chronic disrupters. Those wanting to learn are constantly disrupted.
3. Expectations for kids are low…it’s always because they are poor or parents don’t volunteer or…
4. Teachers lack a voice. The top-down approach from central office is the driving force rather than from the classroom or the school building where decisions should be made. Top down decision making does not take into account particular school cultures, populations served, interests, abilities, etc.
5. The school boards are out of touch with the specific needs in the schools. Just like with #4, they deal with the law of averages and the needs of the schools get lost in the process.
I APPLAUD public school teachers (charters and traditional) who adore their kids and are committed to ensuring outcomes happen for them. Please don’t think that this movement has anything to do with YOU or the quality teachers in this state…it is the SYSTEM – the MACHINE it is pushing to do better with the financial and human resources we have. We have to demand better. The districts will not make changes on their own…they had the chance to and didn’t. We NEED this amendment.
Fred ™
August 28th, 2012
4:13 pm
And when it switched from one party dominating to the other party dominating, not a thing changed. It’s the same as it’s always been; party labels have nothing to do with it.
I have to disagree some Hillybilly D. Zel was all about education and relief on the poorest of us. He’s the one who pushed the lowered sales tax rate on food which today’s Republicans keep trying to raise. He is also the one who mandated and funded a 4 year college no more than 45 minutes away from anywhere in Georgia which today’s Republicans have done away with. He instituted Headstart and Pre-K programs, today’s Republicans keep gutting them.
While much between the two parties remains the same as far as graft and fraud, some very core values have changed in education and relief for the worst off of us.
Fred ™
August 28th, 2012
4:24 pm
@Fred
August 28th, 2012
1:47 pm
Thanks for proving my point. Checkmate.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
LOL what are you, like 4? I’m sure this “wins” your arguments with your hubby and your children, but I hope you do better in real life than this.
I know you are, what am I?
Hillbilly D
August 28th, 2012
4:25 pm
Fred
That’s a valid point but I think it’s more of a shift in the mindset of a lot of people than of a party label change. In the last 20 years or so, a whole lot more people seem to be a bit more of the “what’s in it for me?” mindset, than they use to be, or at least that’s my perception. Nathan Deal was a D before he was an R, and he shifted to keep getting himself elected and so did all the others. They’d join the Free Silver Party, if they thought that’s what they needed to do to get elected.
Of course, as you know, I have the George Washington view of political parties, anyway. I think we’d be better off if we’d have listened to him and never started them.
Atlanta Mom
August 28th, 2012
5:51 pm
@dekalb teacher,
“If we means tested for education vouchers, wouldn’t it be the same thing?”
I’ve never heard “means testing” and “education voucher” in the same sentence. I might not be opposed to that.
Atlanta Mom
August 28th, 2012
5:57 pm
CharterStarter, Too
Yep – in one year they turned some students around academically.
Are you implying that poor black students can’t learn math?”
I merely noted the 20 point increase. If an APS school had posted those results, we would be told that the probability of that occurring was one in a million (or something like that).
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
6:04 pm
@ Atlanta Mom – Only if they had the erasures to match.
The school has to use norm referenced tests, too, and report on those annually.
Gerald
August 28th, 2012
6:06 pm
Maureen,
I am not a resident of school systems in the Atlanta Area and as such “have no dog in most of the fights on your blog”, but if you will forgive an observation from a “senior citizen”, it seems that most of your respondents are more interested in insulting each other than in considering the very real problem of inadequate (on average) educational results for the children who will strive, however successfully or not, to contribute to our country’s well being. I wonder if you could not devote some time to trying to calm some of the more virulant attitudes of your readers, and focus on real issues.
As a for instance, what is the proper objective of the public education system of Georgia? Is it basic skills for all in the three R’s?, or preparation to compete in a global environment for decent jobs? or what? In observing the comments on your blog, it seems to me that many of the disputes are between individuals who have very different ideas as to the purpose of public education.
Personally, I attended an extremely small and poor school system in rural Georgia – graduating in 1961 to date myself. Our high school had less that the legally required 100 students, had a Principal, a Coach, and 4 teachers to cover all subjects required. Nevertheless, when I attended my 50th class reunion last year, most of us still kicking had professional degrees and were economically “middle class or above”. The issue here is that it is not poverty that tells the tale, but the drive and support to better oneself that is often the difference in achieving a better life for oneself.
The issue about Private versus Charter versus Public Schools is silly. Each parent should of course do whatever they can to assure their child or children of the best possible chance for securing the best possible education and preparation for a bright future. Anyone who does less should really consider their objectives. My son attended public schools through 8 grades and then superb private schools through graduation. It was an effective, though expensive, choice for us. If others have different opinions, so be it. However, I did not notice any reduction in State or Local Sales, Income or Property Taxes due – so we continued to provide funds for public education regardless of its mediocre quality in the ensuing 20 years as well as when he was attending public school.
For the dedicated Public School Teachers and Administrators who are doing their best, I salute you and wish you all the best – but, results matter and you must at some point come to grips with the fact that “the system” is not achieving the results that you or others wish.
mountain man
August 28th, 2012
6:15 pm
“so they can build elite schools and fill them with “the right kind” of people.”
You mean, with students who come to school, are not troublemakers, and really want to learn?
mountain man
August 28th, 2012
6:19 pm
“Are you implying that poor (African-American) students can’t learn math?”
Of course they can – if they come to school (and don’t turn their nose up at education).
Ned
August 28th, 2012
6:19 pm
Wow, another day another blog from Maureen bashing charters. Stop the presses
Marney–Thank you for your perspective and honest discussion of the truths you raise.
mountain man
August 28th, 2012
6:20 pm
“Zel was all about education and relief on the poorest of us.”
Yeah, but he had a “late life conversion”.
jw
August 28th, 2012
6:21 pm
Haven’t read through all the comments yet, so maybe someone has brought this up already….
But I don’t see how this necessarily has much to do with the charter vs. public vs. private school choice situation in Atlanta. A brief review of the report leaves me thinking that the difficulties are in areas that have voucher programs and/or larger networks of many smaller private schools, particularly parochial schools.
I’d be interested to see an analysis of this phenomenon in our area. I know of few parents that have pulled their kids from private to public charters here. It certainly isn’t 1/3 of students in the charters here.
mountain man
August 28th, 2012
6:22 pm
“Discipline is not handled in districts consistently or effectively. Teachers rarely get support in their classrooms with chronic disrupters. Those wanting to learn are constantly disrupted. ”
AMEN!
alpharetta mom
August 28th, 2012
6:51 pm
Hi Charter Starter,
Please refresh our collective memory . Why do Georgians need HR 1162 when the state already has the legal authority to grant a charter to a petitioner who has been denied one by a local school board? And while you’re at it, how does the enabling legislation encourage charter schools to flourish in districts with failing schools versus districts like Alpharetta for example which are not failing by any stretch of anyones number crunching? Is the point of HR 1162 to improve education or simply to enhance opportunities for students?
catlady
August 28th, 2012
6:58 pm
I would give up a week’s pay (and with a PhD and max experience, it is good money) if I could pick one of you to come teach my classes and do the other work expected without losing your cool. Every time I have had a parent come in and observe (which, admittedly, has not been often with the troublemakers’ parents) the parent has left with a far different attitude. And that has been just sitting, with all the planning, instruction, evaluation, counseling, behavior management, and other duties taken care of for them.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
7:38 pm
@ Alpharetta Mom –
Hello again. Yes, I will restate the reasons yet again.
1. The Supreme Court decision left a gray area in regards to the authority of the state in public education by inserting the word “inclusive” before control by local school districts.
2. The dissenting opinion writer for this decision, Justice Nahmias, was very clear about the dangers of this.
3. The Attorney General concurred.
4. This opens up the possibility for legal challenge, and thus, a Constitutional amendment to affirm the shared authority between the state and local districts is required to ensure there is no longer a gray area.
You are only looking at large district aggregates. If you have a district of let’s say 30,000, although the aggregate numbers may be very good, there may be students not being served well in their home school, and thus, a charter MAY provide a better environment. Of course, charters can’t open at any individual’s whim….there has to be enough of the community to create a vision shared by enough families to open and sustain the school. If there isn’t need or desire in a district, the charter can’t draw enough students to open its doors or keep them open. So it is a self checking mechanism.
So in answer to your question, the point is to raise achievement and to offer choice where students may need a different environment that the traditional district does not or cannot provide.
Atlanta Mom
August 28th, 2012
8:41 pm
CharterStarter, Too
“@ Atlanta Mom – Only if they had the erasures to match.”
Maybe it’s been a long day for you, but doesn’t a 20 pt increase in one year raise any flags in your mind? I stumbled on that information when I was looking for demographics for Pataula and Baker County, and was surprised.
John Konop
August 28th, 2012
8:55 pm
Charter,
In all due respect, your comments demonstrate you are blinded by you cause. People like that scare me with money. The ends justifies the means with tax payer cash usually ends poorly. No serious person who understands finance would argue your points.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
8:58 pm
@ jAtlanta Mom – No. Otherwise they would have been flagged with the other schools for erasures and weren’t. They also implemented a new instructional program in their first year, trained teachers on the new program, and acclimated staff and students. So settling in by year 2 and raising achievement in an already low subject for the kids in the area isn’t a surprise to me, no.
I know you’re looking for something here, but you COULD just say yes, they seem to be doing a fine job rather than trying so hard to find something to hammer them on that is reaching, at best.
You should take a drive down there Atlanta Mom, and observe the classrooms for yourself. You’d be pleasantly surprised at the warm environment, the excitement of the teachers, and the curiosity of the kids.
John Konop
August 28th, 2012
9:04 pm
Gerald,
In general our top 20 percent perform as well or better than any place in the world. The real problem are with the rest of the kids. That is why we must open more alternative options, like vo-tech, co-ops……
The truth is we educate more kids and do not do a good job of tailoring the education toward aptitude for the majority of students. The problem is as the article pointed out from Cato is charter schools in general are just picking off the top 20 percent from public and private schools. This is not a sustainable or rational model for our school system. Please read the article from Cato.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
9:04 pm
@ John – explain to me how you justify the Baker County school district…from a financial standpoint, that is.
Help me understand how a charter school can function on half of what a traditional school is earning and achieve better results…and moreover, how this is not a better return on investment for taxpayers.
Please also explain to me how traditional districts will be financially impacted by this amendment if the state (797) clearly says they cannot be.
I will await your wisdom.
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
9:07 pm
@ John – I have asked this question 3 times now and no one has answered it….if charters are skimming off the rich kids (1/3 as quoted), how come we have 50% FRL?
Perhaps I am being (as some other courteous poster said earlier) “dense.” But the numbers make no sense to me…
Fred ™
August 28th, 2012
9:53 pm
Hillbilly D
August 28th, 2012
4:25 pm
Fred
That’s a valid point but I think it’s more of a shift in the mindset of a lot of people than of a party label change. In the last 20 years or so, a whole lot more people seem to be a bit more of the “what’s in it for me?” mindset, than they use to be, or at least that’s my perception. Nathan Deal was a D before he was an R, and he shifted to keep getting himself elected and so did all the others. They’d join the Free Silver Party, if they thought that’s what they needed to do to get elected.
Of course, as you know, I have the George Washington view of political parties, anyway. I think we’d be better off if we’d have listened to him and never started them.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
LOl HillbillyD. As usual you make great points and are correct. What was I thinking doubting you? Shame you won’t come back to Jay’s. We all appreciated your voice of reason there.
John Konop
August 28th, 2012
10:04 pm
First charter schools do get their proportion when you factor in other cost like transportation, special needs students cost………why should charter school get money for services they do not provide?
Second you understand your 50 percent number if true on a macro, still does not mean that a good percentage of kids are from private school. Do the math……..
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
10:19 pm
@ John – But many DO provide these services. They only get funds for what the earn. I don’t understand your point there.
Sorry – still don’t get your point…this study by CATO was taken on a real macro – nationwide. In GEORGIA, 50% of our kids are FRL, so the likelihood of us fitting their stats is impossible as far as I can tell. As some other bright soul above mentioned, the heavier proportion of these figures likely come from states with the Catholic schools. We don’t have as many of those here.
I’m not saying private school students don’t leave and come to charters…I just question the huge amount purported by CATO, at least in Georgia.
John Konop
August 28th, 2012
10:36 pm
Charter,
Are you saying Cherokee charter provides bus service and has 11 percent enrollment of special needs students like the local public schools?
John Konop
August 28th, 2012
10:38 pm
Charter,
Cato is a conservative libertarian source, who should be on your side.
Cellophane
August 28th, 2012
11:35 pm
And to add to John’s point, cherokee charter also does not have to provide ESOL services, nor do they have a school nurse. Why should they get the same funding?
CharterStarter, Too
August 28th, 2012
11:55 pm
@ John – no, I said SOME offer transportation – not all. And when we say transportation, you are strictly meaning to and from school. All of the charters I know provide transportation on field trips, even if they don’t provide transportation to and from school. Some of our charters don’t have bus service, but they have other methods, i.e., maybe Marta vouchers, etc.
Cherokee does have Special ed. students it serves who enrolled. Charters cannot pick and choose, so whoever comes to the door may enroll or go through a public lottery. They can’t, by law, control their numbers. Their initial (pre-lottery) registration forms may not have any potentially discriminatory questions. They don’t provide SPED info. until after they have a seat.
@ John Konop – I understand that (re: Cato); however, I still question those numbers in Georgia. I may be wrong, but it just doesn’t make sense to me given what I know about our charters’ enrollment trends.
@ Cellophane – every charter has to provide ELL (by federal law) for enrolled and eligible ELL students. They only earn funding for ELL students if they are enrolled and provide services on the FTE count days (just like any other public school).
As for nursing services, that is a categorical grant, and they DO have to provide nursing services to meet the needs of IEPs, etc. They may not have a staff person, but they may have to contract out for nursing services if needed. That is an itty bitty amount of money anyway – around $5000, so they could not fund a nurse on state funds anyway. And, as a matter of fact, many traditional schools do not have a school nurse, as this is generally an underfunded categorical grant. Sometimes the districts contact this out, and sometimes they have floating nurses. This is not uncommon. Thank you for the specific questions.
John Konop
August 29th, 2012
3:53 am
Charter,
At the end of the day you just admitted that Cherokee charter does not provide the same level of service. Once again why should Cherokee charter get money that was for transportation, special needs…….that they are not using for kids?
CharterStarter, Too
August 29th, 2012
7:02 am
@ John – Sigh. Let me say this once again. They earn money for the students they serve. They don’t get random special ed money coming their way. If they don’t serve the kids, they don’t earn the funds.
But let me address your comment, “not using for the kids.” Charters generally have flexibility with their budgets and can use the funds to meet the needs of their programs as defined in the charter. The catch is accountability. So in the long run, if they choose NOT to use the money for children and to provide strong academic programs, they could CLOSE.
Do you realize that the local school districts were recently given this same flexibility with budgets and they do not have to use the funds, per se, on what the money was “earned” for? I might add that there is no such accountability for the districts.
You should look once again at Baker County and tell me why only 57% of their budget is making it to the classrooms. As an educator, that incenses me. As a taxpayer, I am appalled. Nothing in their general administration budget (of nearly 17%) can be construed as being used for kids. If they had the outcomes (even moderately decent) to show, perhaps it would not be so egregious…but they don’t. And there are others in this state just like them.
John Konop
August 29th, 2012
9:41 am
Charter,
In all due respect you once again demonstrate your lack of basic understanding of financing and budgets. Special needs students cost 30% more to educate on average. Also fuel is major budget issue. Any rational person would factor the extra cost into a budget for allocation per student. The fact is you do not educate even close to the 11% number of special needs kids, and you do not provide transportation. The facts are the facts……………..As I said is it clear people like you may have good intentions, but it is clear you really do not understand the numbers. That is why even Cato is scared to give people like you the money without very strict controls. You are making the same rationalizations that tax payers lost money on via 50 million recycling plant, 500 million solar energy plant, Roswell Charter school…….
Finally the top students in Cherokee county have done as well as private school. The real issue is opening other options like vocational. Co-op/intern……….for the other 80%…….
CharterStarter, Too
August 29th, 2012
10:21 am
@ Konop –
I am not sure you quite understand funding streams. And..you are mixing up inputs versus outputs.
As for inputs….charters are already at a disadvantage and are earning .74 on the dollar for startups and .62 on the dollar for state charters, AND they get NO funding for facilities and do not have access to federal grants and SPLOST unless the district feels so inclined to share (which very rarely happens). Districts are already way a head here.
As for outputs…one would think that districts would be able to reduce costs with their economy of scale. Districts do not tap their operational budgets for facilities. Charters have to pay for their buildings out of their operational budget (QBE), which generally accounts for about 15%. They also have to pay the 30% more for the SPED students they serve like any district, and if they provide transportation, they have those fees, too (including fuel costs). If you really want to pit costs of SPED students and transportation (SPED being 6% of overall students in the state) and transportation expenditures in the state (which is 4.8%) with what charters have to spend on buildings, let’s do it. Districts will come out on top every time with more funding – REGARDLESS of whether charters provide transportation and have the exact same number of SPED students.
The charter sector welcomes oversight over their spending and fiscal controls. We report it every single year. I’d pit our charters against the out of control spending of many districts and lack of fiduciary responsibility of district boards any day. I’ve already PROVEN to you with Baker County that our districts are rampant with waste – and I will gladly show you a slew more just like them. It doesn’t matter what the funding is if they aren’t spending what they have wisely.
It is very typical for opponents of this Amendment to try to do the David Blaine magic show with the public by mixing numbers, inputs and outputs, and throwing distractors, innuendo, and insults out. You throw whatever you can at the wall and hope it sticks. There is one thing you are right about, and that is that the numbers are the numbers are the numbers. We don’t have to twist numbers and play the same word games you all are playing – because the facts are in our favor.
What you can be assured of, Mr. Konop, is that the charter sector will fight this fight with integrity. We will be transparent and forthcoming for those with questions. We will publish factual information that can be verified through public data sources. This will eventually bring attention to the real problems we have in public education. And the problem is not within the classrooms. It’s with district priorities and lack of accountability.
So bring it on, sir. This lady who “doesn’t understand financing and budgets” is ready.
John Konop
August 29th, 2012
10:46 am
Charter,
First Cherokee charter received millions in federal dollars via the Obama stimulus package. It would be disingenuous to say they were not given start-up money outside of the normal per pupil. Also the property is not secured against the millions we gave the private group running the school. Bottom line the people running the school got free money from the government with no strings attached. Do you really think this is capitalism? Is this not the same situation how tax payers got burned recently? You realize the above crony deals is an insult for business people that did not get free cash from the government to start a business.
As with above you cherry pick facts, numbers…….., it is very obvious, for anyone who is trained. BTW you know as well as I Cherokee does not have a problem with the top 20% of students.